IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 4th, 2008

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2008-07-05 05:29:30 UTC
Modified: 2008-07-05 05:29:30 UTC

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schestowitz	Morning, kentma.	Jul 04 07:15
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tessier	WOW	Jul 04 07:24
tessier	http://www.linuxdevices.com/n...	Jul 04 07:24
tessier	My dad is building an RV-7 and bought one of these to put in his plane! I assumed it was some lame DOS based system. But it's Linux powered! That's awesome!	Jul 04 07:24
schestowitz	Funny timing. Henrty has just mailed me another article from Linux Devices. By the way, this one will make front page, I think.	Jul 04 07:25
schestowitz	http://digg.com/linux_unix/Linux_i... and this one for sure http://digg.com/linux_unix/Garmi... also had two submissions in the front page yesterday.	Jul 04 07:25
kentma	hi all	Jul 04 07:27
tessier	Yeah, that penguin grows wings thing you linked to is how I found it	Jul 04 07:28
tessier	My dad bought this thing like two years ago	Jul 04 07:28
tessier	Still waiting on the engine and then the plane should be pretty close to flyable.	Jul 04 07:28
tessier	He's got the avionics all set. I can't believe it's a Linux powered plane.	Jul 04 07:28
schestowitz	There are still rumours about Linux on Mars.	Jul 04 07:30
kentma	That's very impressive.	Jul 04 07:30
schestowitz	They linked to another one about it in Linux Today. I posted a correction, but it didn't show up	Jul 04 07:30
schestowitz	Are you flying on July 4th, tessier?	Jul 04 07:31
tessier	Yes, I am. Tomorrow some friends and I flying to San Francisco.	Jul 04 07:31
schestowitz	I thought you lived there.	Jul 04 07:32
schestowitz	I also forwarded to you that job offer thing I had received.	Jul 04 07:32
tessier	I live in San Diego.	Jul 04 07:32
tessier	I received your job offer and replied to you.	Jul 04 07:33
tessier	Thanks for sending it. But it looks like it is based in the UK and I don't really want to leave SD.	Jul 04 07:33
tessier	I think I've got quite a bit of consulting work lined up for the time being.	Jul 04 07:33
schestowitz	Oh, I see now. that E-mail address.	Jul 04 07:33
schestowitz	I don't think we'll be seeing much more of Linspire. Just found; http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/07/03... I think they too are located in SD.	Jul 04 07:38
schestowitz	http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new... "struggling Linux distributions huddle together" They sold out to Microsoft, so make that "good riddance". They hardly contributed to GNU/Linux anyway, unless marketing and repackaging count.	Jul 04 07:39
schestowitz	This one is really bad, if true: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008...	Jul 04 07:43
kentma	Linspire is very very dead. Personally, I think it was dead the moment they paid the MS tax.	Jul 04 07:48
tessier	Linspire is indeed in San Diego.	Jul 04 07:48
tessier	I was employee number 15 at MP3.com and Michael Robertson interviewed me for my job there.	Jul 04 07:49
tessier	After MP3.com he took his $250M he got from selling it to Vivendi Universal and started Lindows, Sipphone and I don't know what else.	Jul 04 07:49
tessier	He bought a building nearby the old MP3.com building	Jul 04 07:49
tessier	And housed all of his enterprises in it	Jul 04 07:50
tessier	I think he is leasing out floorspace in that building to others now since his own operations have shrank	Jul 04 07:50
schestowitz	I think he's sued now, isn't he? I can't recall the detials.	Jul 04 07:50
tessier	He actually emailed me a couple of years ago and invited me to come interview with him	Jul 04 07:50
tessier	I'm not aware of him being involved in any suits at the moment although it wouldn't surprise me	Jul 04 07:50
tessier	But the man is an asshole. I'll never work for him again.	Jul 04 07:51
kentma	What I find astonishing about these things (the death threats) is the way the incidents are reported as having been from the "free software" community. Nobody in the foss community would /ever/ consider harassing anyone for developing foss - it's just non-sensicle.	Jul 04 07:51
schestowitz	Over music. I could search the news quickly if you are interested.	Jul 04 07:51
schestowitz	kentma, at risk of overreaching, there's the possibility of sabotage and intimidation from the outside.	Jul 04 07:51
tessier	afaik he isn't doing anything with music except for some other sort of music locker service but only with independent music which he has rights to this time	Jul 04 07:52
schestowitz	For instance, some think that Microsoft actively uses one community against another to make scandalous stories. In COLA too the trolls try to promote infighting.	Jul 04 07:52
tessier	That's what got us sued at MP3.com: A music locker service for the major label music. I think what we were doing should have been in the right but copyright is so incredibly complicated that there was no way to know for sure until a judge rules.	Jul 04 07:52
tessier	ruled	Jul 04 07:52
schestowitz	tessier, let me look.	Jul 04 07:52
kentma	schestowitz: I'd say that it's a significant possibility. It's too amazing a coincidence that /all/ female debian developers are receiving threats - this has to be organised.	Jul 04 07:52
tessier	But I hear our own lawyers warned him against it	Jul 04 07:52
schestowitz	Got it: http://www.socaltech.com/mp3tunes_rober...	Jul 04 07:53
tessier	hah...so he did the exact same thing again and is getting sued in the exact same way!	Jul 04 07:53
tessier	Likely with the exact same outcome.	Jul 04 07:53
tessier	What a nut.	Jul 04 07:53
schestowitz	Then there's stupid Google and their data lust: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-... . Why don't they occasionally flush these things? For spying, of course. "All your data are belong to us".	Jul 04 07:54
tessier	Yeah. They should just keep aggregate data if anything.	Jul 04 07:55
schestowitz	kentma, I was disgusted by what Microsoft did against Linus. There's precedence.	Jul 04 07:55
schestowitz	http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/brown/	Jul 04 07:56
kentma	schestowitz: oh yes, I recall that debate going on at some length, it was the first time I'd even heard of the Alexis de Tocqueville inst.	Jul 04 07:56
schestowitz	tessier, I flush the logs of BN.com every night. I've kept them in schestowitz.com for other historical reasons, but I never use them.	Jul 04 07:57
tessier	schestowitz: But if they were subpoena'd you would have to turn them over because they do exist.	Jul 04 07:58
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/25/f...	Jul 04 07:58
schestowitz	Yes, and for BN.com it's a higher risk. I have a very conservative site (and comments) in schestowitz.com. Groklaw won't put anything third-party because of the risk of spying. Even comments are /not/ indexed there, by design.	Jul 04 08:01
schestowitz	Heh. "The HP 2133 is another well spec’d contender but it chose to install SUSE, a Novell product that is being currently boycotted by many in the Unix community because of its link up with……Microsoft.' http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/column...	Jul 04 08:12
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tessier	http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technol...	Jul 04 08:27
tessier	Really good essay on bbc.co.uk from RMS	Jul 04 08:28
schestowitz	Yes, seen it but only read a few paragraphs. Defective by Design promoted this article.	Jul 04 08:28
tessier	I wonder how much the BBC edited him down. I like it when he makes reasonable arguments that aren't too religious such as to alienate the reader.	Jul 04 08:29
tessier	I can see the average reader understanding and sympathizing with an article like this,	Jul 04 08:29
kentm1	It's a good article, but I think that it will mostly appeal to people who understand how software is made, and who understand the very long-term implications of proprietary versus foss. I suspect that for many people, a simple economic analysis might be more comprehensible.	Jul 04 08:32
schestowitz	The COLA trolls (at least one of them) attack me in the comment about the article: http://digg.com/microsoft/It_s...	Jul 04 08:32
schestowitz	http://digg.com/microsoft/It_s_not_th...	Jul 04 08:32
schestowitz	tessier, regarding editing down, see what the BBC had him 'say' about ISO. Now see this:	Jul 04 08:35
schestowitz	http://www.noooxml.org/forum/t-704...	Jul 04 08:35
schestowitz	You see, corruption is such a 'big' word. The BBC's readers do not want to become aware of crime, do they? They want good news.	Jul 04 08:36
kentm1	The mainstream press are under ever more pressure from lawyers about what they publish. I doubt many people in the BBC would even understand the issues around the corruption of ISO and the BSI, let alone be in a position to write articles.	Jul 04 08:58
schestowitz	I tried to expose Microsoft dirty tricks before in the press. The editor stripped that off.	Jul 04 08:59
schestowitz	The Halloween Document are apparently not 'real' enough. I explained that Comes vs Iowa confirmed their authenticity. It's a waste of time.	Jul 04 09:00
kentm1	Was he worried about losing Microsoft advertising revenue?	Jul 04 09:01
schestowitz	Heh. I don't know if they advertise with Microsoft (I have blockers), but I suspect they might. By the way, KDE is under public attack from anonymous trolls and more.	Jul 04 09:01
schestowitz	One of the developers is getting back to his thesis at the expense of KDE development, so I sent him this E-mail: "KDE is doing great, so it scares some people. It's a threat to their job/beliefs. There will always be trolls. Ignore them. They try to distract you. I'm sad to see you distancing yourself away from the Free desktop, which is doing better than the media has you believe. According to Microsoft's own Gartner Group, 1 in 20 people	Jul 04 09:02
schestowitz	in east Europe use GNU/Linux."	Jul 04 09:02
kentm1	Hopefully there will be others with the time to take his place, should he not be able to return to the work.	Jul 04 09:04
schestowitz	Yes, I hope so. He's one of the leaders though. I wonder where the public abuse comes from. One guy from this IRC channel is keeping abreast of KDE and he suspects that someone peripheral might try to poison the project using abuse. The same goes for RMS and attacks on him.	Jul 04 09:05
kentm1	I'm hoping that we can get some people from Newham, the BBC, the BSI, the British Library, ISO, Becta and elsewhere to beging leaking in formation to wikileaks.	Jul 04 09:05
kentm1	As Microsoft head into deeper and deeper trouble, I think we can expect the harrassment to worsen proportionately.	Jul 04 09:06
schestowitz	Yes, hopefully. I love that site. Corps would hate it. The world is filled with scum and I haven't doubt about attempts to ruin even volunteer projects if it harms someone's bottom line.	Jul 04 09:06
schestowitz	Just watch all the abuse people get in COLA. As I wrote earlier, the COLA trolls are in Digg too, attacking me every time I 'dare' to leave a comment. There's libel about me, too.	Jul 04 09:07
kentm1	The real challenge is needing to defend oneself without crossing the line. I think I put a stop to the "Mark Kent works with Microsoft" thing, as I found that telco2.0 article which correctly described a certain linux-based platform	Jul 04 09:08
kentm1	As and when I see cola without the filters, it's quite shocking just how much vitriol the trolls drip, or gush, rather.	Jul 04 09:09
schestowitz	Well, whatever they say, all I know is that we're up against anonymous scum.	Jul 04 09:09
schestowitz	Several of them, such as Bill Weisgerber, are associated with Microsoft. Others are Munchkins or part of the ecosystem -- the same one that helped Microsoft corrupt ISO.	Jul 04 09:09
kentm1	I think that ISO are hoping that the storm will die down, but personally, I don't think that ISO can ever recover from the damage caused by this overt corruption.	Jul 04 09:10
schestowitz	http://finance.google.com/finance?q=msft As it approaches zero, aggression will rise (but so will resources to do so)	Jul 04 09:11
schestowitz	Yes, ISO chose denial and rewriting of history. Many people slammed them for this. I, for one, became (and will remain) a vocal critic of ISO.	Jul 04 09:12
schestowitz	Oops. I meant to write " resources to do so will decline"... because Microsoft gets less influential and affluent. You can choose to look at the stock over a 6-month time range. Then, bear in mind they have spent around $43,000,000,000 on buybacks, until recently. They have been pumping it artificially since 2006.	Jul 04 09:16
tessier	Stock buybacks are a pretty standard thing for a company with large cash reserves.	Jul 04 09:31
tessier	Their profits are still huge.	Jul 04 09:31
schestowitz	tessier, I'm trying to explain that the stock would have decline a lot faster had it not been for the buybacks. Novell too entered 'buyback mode' a month or two ago.	Jul 04 09:32
schestowitz	As for Microsoft's profit, it's declining. The acquisitions they make at the expense of its reserves have yet to show if that trend can be reversed. Eyes on next quarter's profits (due soon).	Jul 04 09:33
tessier	http://www.informationweek.com/news/softw...	Jul 04 09:34
tessier	Microsoft hopes office subscription plan will counter free software	Jul 04 09:34
tessier	Free as in price, in this context	Jul 04 09:34
tessier	They won't have to really worry until their lock-in Office/Windows revenue starts to fall	Jul 04 09:34
schestowitz	Yes, I saw this but reposted this nowhere. It would be a form of advertising.	Jul 04 09:34
tessier	I can't wait for the first word of Microsoft layoffs	Jul 04 09:34
schestowitz	They see what's coming. That's why they are helplessly desparate for Yahoo!, too.	Jul 04 09:35
schestowitz	tessier, the workforce is increasing because of Ballmer's massive acquisitions hunt. Microsoft's bank balance is now roughly on par with Apple's. It used to be huge.	Jul 04 09:36
tessier	They went through all that cash already eh? Wow.	Jul 04 09:36
tessier	I know they would have had to finance part of it to buy Yahoo	Jul 04 09:37
schestowitz	26 billion left, IIRC. If they bought Yahoo in May/April (49 billiob), they would be in debt.	Jul 04 09:37
schestowitz	In fact, their CTO is already reaching out for a loan. Reuters had this report in February or March.	Jul 04 09:37
tessier	I don't care much for Yahoo either. I wasn't sure who to root for. Buying Yahoo might very well sink MS if they didn't integrate nicely.	Jul 04 09:37
schestowitz	Yes, but it's like buying the chicken only for the breast. You toss the rest in the bin. Microsoft wants that chicken breast because it's very hungry. The price doesn't matter.	Jul 04 09:38
schestowitz	Moreover, you can't combine SEs. You /CANNOT/ combine an index or harmonise FreeBSD and Windows. It's totally insane, but they just want short-term market share (Yahoo has some) so that it can spy on users and steak SERPs that way. It's information and reach that it's after. It also needs to 'poison'; Yahoo with XAML.	Jul 04 09:40
schestowitz	I wrote an article about this at the time. It made the front page of Slashdot.	Jul 04 09:40
schestowitz	tessier, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnm-DIv8VJA	Jul 04 09:58
*tessier JUST bought an Openmoko Freerunner phone		Jul 04 09:58
tessier	I should have it in three days. Woohoo!	Jul 04 09:58
tessier	I've been waiting for this one for ages.	Jul 04 09:58
tessier	Can't believe it's finally coming: An open Linux-based phone	Jul 04 09:58
kentm1	tessier: is the phone a 3G phone?	Jul 04 10:00
tessier	kentm1: 2.5G (not EDGE)	Jul 04 10:01
kentm1	Ah, okay, never mind. If they were doing a 3G one, I'd buy one.	Jul 04 10:01
tessier	And it has wifi	Jul 04 10:01
kentm1	I've already got a Nokia 800, and a 770, so I'm well covered for wifi :-)	Jul 04 10:02
tessier	They are keeping the costs down (already at $399) for the phone consumer phone. I'm sure they'll get quad-band 3G etc. going soon.	Jul 04 10:05
cozub	tessier: I'm buying one too... unfortunately the 900 version is sold out... the DE distributor we're buying from says next bunch arrives 25th :-/	Jul 04 10:05
cozub	I guess there are some patents-related issues in 3G	Jul 04 10:06
tessier	Yeah, 900 went fast. I wonder how many there were...	Jul 04 10:06
kentm1	3G's kind of old hat here, now. Anything < 3G just looks very dated to me. The patent issue is a possibility, but I doubt that the radio-side of the phone is very accessible.	Jul 04 10:06
cozub	what's 3G good for anyway? I use phone for smses and occasional calls... For inet I'd stick to wifi/bt; just sometimes to gprs, which is slow as molases, but ok for the occasions I'm bored while travelling - taking into account the prices/kb I have to pay anyway	Jul 04 10:08
kentm1	Good for? data. I do a huge amount of travelling, and I need to access email and other things whilst on the move. 2.5G is painful and unreliable for this, whereas 3G is pretty much like being on the ADSL line. I use my phone usually 2-3 hours/day on work days, so it's extremely important. In some places, hotels, office buildings, the only access which works is the phone, so it needs to be good.	Jul 04 10:10
tessier	VOIP is the killer app IMHO	Jul 04 10:11
tessier	VOIP over wifi or 3G. No minutes. Also you can IM over gaim/jabber etc. No more SMS. Wonderful!	Jul 04 10:12
kentm1	VoIP? nah. VoIP doesn't really change anything, takes far more bandwidth than telco telephony and provides lower quality.	Jul 04 10:12
kentm1	The mobile providers filter streams to make sure VoIP doesn't work very well, too.	Jul 04 10:12
schestowitz	Well, that's nice. rolls eyes	Jul 04 10:13
kentm1	Skype off-net calling is more expensive than using a landline, for most international destinations, it's just that people think it's less expensive. On-net it's okay, sometimes, when it's working. Skype was out for about a week, recently, wasn't it?	Jul 04 10:14
schestowitz	Didn't they say a year ago that VoIP raises the threat of Mighty Terrorism	Jul 04 10:14
kentm1	Probably... the problem with the term VoIP is that it makes the standard technical error - voice is a service, the transport it happens to run on is not of great import, its the economics around it which matters.	Jul 04 10:14
tessier	But IP is cheap and usually not metered	Jul 04 10:15
tessier	So Voice over IP is indeed something special.	Jul 04 10:15
schestowitz	So... "you cab have Internet, as long as you don't make too much use of it."	Jul 04 10:16
tessier	Because voice usually goes over metered dedicated lines.	Jul 04 10:16
tessier	kentm1: No, VOIP does not provide lower quality.	Jul 04 10:16
kentm1	Err, yes it does.	Jul 04 10:16
tessier	kentm1: And it takes LESS bandwidth than telco telephony	Jul 04 10:16
tessier	I've been installing VOIP systems for 4 years.	Jul 04 10:16
kentm1	Sorry, no, it doesn't.	Jul 04 10:16
kentm1	It uses considerably more.	Jul 04 10:16
tessier	My phones all sample at 64khz just like the phone company samples.	Jul 04 10:16
tessier	And with overhead they use 80kb/s	Jul 04 10:16
kentm1	No, it's 64kbit/s stream.	Jul 04 10:17
tessier	A standard T-1 line for a business can handle 24 calls because it has 24 channels	Jul 04 10:17
tessier	Right. 64k/stream	Jul 04 10:17
tessier	That is with no compression and telco grade digital quality.	Jul 04 10:17
kentm1	For VoIP to work, you need a very very lightly loaded network, about 10% loaded.	Jul 04 10:17
tessier	And no, you don't.	Jul 04 10:17
kentm1	It's not telco grade quality	Jul 04 10:17
kentm1	What codec are you using?	Jul 04 10:17
tessier	Yes, it is.	Jul 04 10:17
kentm1	No, it's not.	Jul 04 10:17
tessier	No codec. Straight mu-law.	Jul 04 10:17
kentm1	And what packet size?	Jul 04 10:18
tessier	I think 50ms is the typical default.	Jul 04 10:18
kentm1	Really? You've already added more latency than the whole of the UK has for its telephone network.	Jul 04 10:18
tessier	When I call to my wife's mom in Vietnam the call quality is better than anything you can get with a landline phone.	Jul 04 10:18
tessier	And definitely better than cell phones.	Jul 04 10:18
kentm1	Latency is one of the key vectors in call quality.	Jul 04 10:18
kentm1	Cell phones use the GSM codec, unless you're unlucky enough to be on a CDMA network.	Jul 04 10:19
kentm1	I don't know about US to Vietnam, sorry.	Jul 04 10:19
tessier	GSM codec is an option in asterisk.	Jul 04 10:19
kentm1	Indeed it is, however, it's not remotely close to PSTN quality.	Jul 04 10:19
kentm1	I was one of the people who tested it when it was developed.	Jul 04 10:19
kentm1	The factors which affect MOS (perceived call quality) are:	Jul 04 10:20
tessier	Tested what when what was developed?	Jul 04 10:20
tessier	VOIP?	Jul 04 10:20
kentm1	latency, echo return loss, noise, quantisation distortion...	Jul 04 10:20
kentm1	no, gsm codec.	Jul 04 10:20
kentm1	We did lots of work on "VoIP", but as a term, it's fairly meaningless.	Jul 04 10:21
kentm1	Do you mean a telco grade CSCF with MGWs and SBCs?	Jul 04 10:21
kentm1	Do you mean a VoIP PBX?	Jul 04 10:21
kentm1	Do you mean IP trunking?	Jul 04 10:21
kentm1	Do you mean ITSP?	Jul 04 10:21
tessier	Voice means voice over IP. And that has plenty of meaning.	Jul 04 10:22
tessier	Voice over IP as opposed to voice over PSTN is the standard understanding of the term.	Jul 04 10:22
kentm1	In your limited environment, perhaps. Now, do you know which bits of the PSTN use IP trunking, say?	Jul 04 10:22
kentm1	Do you know which PTTs and Telcos have ITSP services?	Jul 04 10:22
kentm1	Do you know which Telco vendors supply CSCFs?	Jul 04 10:23
tessier	What does any of that matter?	Jul 04 10:23
kentm1	Because they're all elements of voice services running over IP netowrks, doh!	Jul 04 10:23
kentm1	VoIP has no real meaning.	Jul 04 10:23
kentm1	It might be in the PSTN, and sometimes it is.	Jul 04 10:23
tessier	Lots of people use the term and understand each other perfectly.	Jul 04 10:23
kentm1	Try to understand this - "voice" is a service. It can run on all manner of transports. IP is one. That's all.	Jul 04 10:24
tessier	That does not at all conflict with the use of the term VOIP	Jul 04 10:24
cozub	kentm1: ok, your point taken :) For me the phone is more of a toy/nice ssh client, I have noneed for fast data over the provider's net. Esp. as it's quite expensive here.	Jul 04 10:24
tessier	IP happens to be a very cheap and convenient transport that gives me and my clients a lot of control over our phone infrastructure. And that is why we love it.	Jul 04 10:25
tessier	I've got an office in San Diego, a warehouse in San Diego, a warehouse in New Jersey, and a corporate HQ in New York all communicating constantly with VOIP over the open Internet using bonded T-1 links running QoS over the T-1's and have been doing so for the last two years and it is WONDERFUL.	Jul 04 10:26
kentm1	That's great - I have no problem with that at all. If you look at PBT/ethernet, you'll see that's where everyone is going, because you can get the same kind of fill that you can get on telco TDM networks.	Jul 04 10:26
kentm1	QoS on IP networks is a waste of time, btw.	Jul 04 10:26
tessier	So you can call VOIP meaningless if you like but the rest of us will keep on doing what we are doing.	Jul 04 10:26
tessier	Man, you are full of opinions.	Jul 04 10:26
kentm1	I'm full of knowledge.	Jul 04 10:27
tessier	Before we instituted QoS (more like packet prioritization) a big download from a high speed site would kill the call. We turned on wondershaper on our firewalls and that problem went away never to return. Now anyone uses the net as they like and they never step on call quality.	Jul 04 10:27
kentm1	As I said, I have no problem with you using IP transport for Voice, but you don't seem to grasp that it is many things to many people.	Jul 04 10:27
tessier	When does VOIP mean anything other than running voice over an IP network?	Jul 04 10:28
kentm1	You said: Ã¯Â»Â¿ Voice over IP as opposed to voice over PSTN is the standard understanding of the term.	Jul 04 10:29
tessier	Right	Jul 04 10:29
kentm1	This is bollox, since IP transport is used in the PSTN, which shows why your definition is just plain wrong.	Jul 04 10:29
tessier	Anyone saying VOIP also means voice over carrier pidgeon is probably mistaken.	Jul 04 10:29
kentm1	Your world is based around access capabilities, and it's all you see.	Jul 04 10:29
kentm1	There's much more to networking out there than the bits you work on.	Jul 04 10:29
tessier	PSTN is line-switched. If they use VOIP in the PSTN then that segment of the line ceases to be PSTN.	Jul 04 10:29
kentm1	Tosh.	Jul 04 10:30
kentm1	Do you know what IP trunking is?	Jul 04 10:30
tessier	The switched in PSTN is generally taken to be line-switched.	Jul 04 10:30
kentm1	Do you know what SIP-T and SIP-I are?	Jul 04 10:30
kentm1	They're not, they're circuit switched.	Jul 04 10:30
kentm1	And circuit switchign using IP trunking is in common usage today.	Jul 04 10:30
kentm1	But you just don't know about it.	Jul 04 10:31
tessier	Yes, I do quite a bit of IP trunking. But not generally with SIP-T	Jul 04 10:31
kentm1	do you know why SIP-I and SIP-T exist?	Jul 04 10:31
tessier	And just because you put a bunch of packets on a line and call them a circuit but run them over IP doesn't mean it is now circuit switched.	Jul 04 10:31
kentm1	Oh you buffoon, you don't understand how this works at all.	Jul 04 10:32
tessier	You seem to be quite condescending and intent on asking questions about obscure areas of telephone which you think I don't know much about.	Jul 04 10:32
kentm1	I can see that you dont'.	Jul 04 10:32
tessier	And now you call me a buffoon. Nice.	Jul 04 10:32
tessier	I am generally familiar with how PSTN signalling over IP networks is done.	Jul 04 10:33
kentm1	You're busy telling me how my bl**dy network works, and you don't have a clue about it.	Jul 04 10:33
tessier	I know what SIP-I and SIP-T are for.	Jul 04 10:33
kentm1	how do they relate to C7, and why do they exist, then?	Jul 04 10:33
kentm1	I'm telling you what's in my network and how it works, and you're telling me I'm wrong.	Jul 04 10:33
tessier	We call it SS7 over here.	Jul 04 10:34
kentm1	Sorry, but I have only some much time for this.	Jul 04 10:34
kentm1	I know you do.	Jul 04 10:34
schestowitz	kentm1, please calm down.	Jul 04 10:34
tessier	And I need to go to bed now. Thanks for the condescending conversation.	Jul 04 10:34
kentm1	If you want to learn, I can tell you, but you have to stop tellign me what's in my network.	Jul 04 10:34
schestowitz	Anyway, KDE screenshots! :-) http://www.inatux.com/b... ( Fedora 9 & KDE 4 review )	Jul 04 10:36
schestowitz	The ought edges in this new blog post give food for thought. There are many people who try to demoralise KDE developers these days.	Jul 04 10:37
kentm1	It's not good, is it?	Jul 04 10:42
schestowitz	Oops. "ought" should be "rough" (a typoi). Well, I suppose you saw some examples before. If only you saw the abuse Aaron Seigo got from anonymous pr*cks. It's like some sort of an attack that drives away developers. Troy left.	Jul 04 10:43
kentm1	I realised what you meant...	Jul 04 10:43
schestowitz	But the URL above is actually a praise. Also new:	Jul 04 10:44
schestowitz	http://www.tectonic.co.za/?p=2552	Jul 04 10:44
*kentm1 busy		Jul 04 10:50
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kentm1	schestowitz: sooner or later, I'm going to write a piece explaining a lot more about telco networks and how they work, how the internet is carried by them, and how voice networks work - the amount of misunderstanding is collossal, even by people who regard themselves as experts... it's not helped by marketing from certain manufacturers, because people take their claims as fact, which is a grave error.	Jul 04 12:45
kentm1	It's amazing how people which a sufficiently small amount of knowledge about something seem to fail to recognise that there might be more to know. There seems to be a rubicon after that, when people start to realise just how huge it all is.	Jul 04 12:47
kentm1	I've been learning about this for 30 years, and I know that I'm just really starting to grasp a few areas in some detail - but it would take lifetimes to understand it all.	Jul 04 12:47
schestowitz	This doesn't seem like Linux.com-suitable material, but how about networking-related pubs?	Jul 04 12:48
schestowitz	The problem is that with such publications you speak to the choir.	Jul 04 12:48
kentm1	Unfortunately, the problem is precisely that - we have people working on VoIP PBXs like Mr Tessier who really would benefit from a greater understanding, but there's little that they're likely to find out there, and what there is tends to assume several years experience in existing networking.	Jul 04 12:49
kentm1	Ah well, another job to go on the long long list...	Jul 04 12:50
schestowitz	tessier's explanation wasn't badly intended. You became quiet rude at some stage.	Jul 04 12:52
kentm1	I'm afraid that when faced with extreme foolishness, I do sometimes lose patience with people.	Jul 04 12:55
kentm1	I should probably be more patient, but I wasn't expecting to give a total beginner's introduction to basic telecoms lesson this morning.	Jul 04 12:56
schestowitz	No, that was rude. You sometimes do that in COLA too and it upsets even those who are on your side. Better not to argue than to argue aggressively, IMHO.	Jul 04 12:57
schestowitz	That's why I don't speak to my parents about computers. :-) :-)	Jul 04 12:57
kentm1	Unfortunately, when I have someone who makes several statements which are erroneous, and then begins to draw conclusions from them, I do tend to get annoyed. Probably I shouldn't, but there we go. I don't think that anything Tessier said was actually technically correct, so where do you start?	Jul 04 12:59
schestowitz	It doesn't matter. Let's just forget about it. I'm actually much more interested in what's happening at Xandrospire at the moment. With Turbolinux being quite irrelevant, it's possible that Novell may soon be the only target when it comes to shooting down the IPR plot.	Jul 04 13:02
kentm1	Ahh, well, I have my lifelong mission to educate people out of ignorance - I can't so easily forget :-)	Jul 04 13:04
kentm1	Anyway, as you say, the IPR games look like they're coming to a conclusion, which is very good. I'd like to think that we've made a difference in Cola.	Jul 04 13:05
schestowitz	GPLv3 is a big part of it. Linspire got locked out. Xandros knows what's coming too.	Jul 04 13:06
schestowitz	The GPLv3 ensures that exclusionary IP deals with Microsoft are nothing short of commercial suicide.	Jul 04 13:06
kentm1	It's a shame that GPLv3 didn't come along about 12 months earlier.	Jul 04 13:07
schestowitz	I've just found an interesting thing about XenSource and posted it here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0... Mind the bit where XenSource is shown for the Microsoft puppet it had become. Microsoft used its PARTNER OF THE YEAR Citrix to buy a rival/threat, by proxy.	Jul 04 13:08
kentm1	oh yea...	Jul 04 13:08
schestowitz	I beg to differ. Without the Novell deal, it probably would have missed the loophole, which Perens foresaw back in 1999, IIRC.	Jul 04 13:08
kentm1	I meant 12 months earlier but with the patent provisions in :-)	Jul 04 13:09
kentm1	Cola's an interesting place, and there's definitely soem tension between the "advocates" from time to time, but then there are some areas where there is total disagreement, including GPLv3.	Jul 04 13:10
kentm1	The abuse I received on that from Spike and Peter K was breathtaking, as an example...	Jul 04 13:10
kentm1	Personally, I find it hard to understand how anyone could be in favour of foss and yet not recognise the essentialness of GPLv3 as the next step.	Jul 04 13:11
schestowitz	If only these were the sole disagreements in COLA. The rise in Microsoft trolling there is an indication of nervousness.	Jul 04 13:11
kentm1	I'm 100% sure that you're right on that. I think it'll only get worse.	Jul 04 13:11
schestowitz	Some people want to exploit GPL's (v2) exclusions to make more profit.	Jul 04 13:11
kentm1	I know...	Jul 04 13:12
schestowitz	GPLvX is tied to philosophy (GNU), but GPLv2 does not convey it entirely.	Jul 04 13:12
schestowitz	Dual-licensing with GPL is another issue.	Jul 04 13:12
kentm1	Just like some people want to arbitrage telco networks to make a profit,	Jul 04 13:12
schestowitz	Oh, yes.	Jul 04 13:13
schestowitz	Broadcasting for example.	Jul 04 13:13
kentm1	Or reduce a cost, for that matter. Or even Tessier's IP PBXs, which are essentially an arbitraging tool.	Jul 04 13:13
kentm1	Not singling him out, I mean, lots of people are doing it, but it's arbitrage, nevetheless.	Jul 04 13:14
kentm1	Just in case anyone wants to take offence :-)	Jul 04 13:14
schestowitz	Well, industry is a collision of interest. Balance is often 'found' and won by greed.	Jul 04 13:14
schestowitz	*interests	Jul 04 13:14
kentm1	Sometimes incompetence is a big factor. If the telco networks moved to PBT quickly, then arbitrage would disappear, as it could be possible to "dial-up" reliable streaming service, or use best effort, and pay for what you use.	Jul 04 13:15
kentm1	This would be good for IP PBX providers as well as skype or anyone else, because it'd be a level playing field.	Jul 04 13:15
schestowitz	Well, you speak here on behalf one one interest. What about those who push for free comms (e,g. wireless meshes)?	Jul 04 13:16
kentm1	Wireless meshes are fine, I have no problem with them. I doubt that they'll be able to get to the bandwidth of telco networks, because you can't easily get spectral separation, and it's practically impossible to get reliable streaming, due to the ad-hoc nature of the networks, but I think they should be encouraged, myself.	Jul 04 13:17
schestowitz	So why not fiberise at telco's end. Sure, it's expensive, but then again, it's the same problem in the US where prices are fixed? Capacity is limited by greed on both ends (ISPs want to lower costs/labour and users are pixel-greedy or sample rate-greedy). It'sa two-edged thing.	Jul 04 13:19
kentm1	I agree that there are advantages, but the issue is cost. BT has 28 milliion copper pairs, replacing them with fibre would probably cost €£3bn to €£4bn, and in the UK, unlike the US, BT would have to share the infrastructure, so a business case is very difficult to write.	Jul 04 13:22
schestowitz	Isn't fiber (or better) inevitable though?	Jul 04 13:23
schestowitz	It's like saying that cutting down CO2 omission is pricey. Radical analogy, but still...	Jul 04 13:24
schestowitz	*emissions	Jul 04 13:24
kentm1	Okay, but how much would you be prepared to pay for fibre access?	Jul 04 13:25
kentm1	Bearing in mind that you'll have 24Mbit/s from ADSL2+ in due course.	Jul 04 13:25
kentm1	Don't misunderstand - I'd love to be able to to FTTH across the whole UK, and also offer PBT & IP access so that everything, including skype and so on would work fine, and that everyone would pay for just the bandwidth they used, no more and no less.	Jul 04 13:26
kentm1	It's about getting there that's the challenge :-)	Jul 04 13:27
schestowitz	That's always an issue. A friend of mine from the gym, a renowned biologist, argues that the planet is doomed because human nature means that greed and desire for power surpasses long-term considerations.	Jul 04 13:27
kentm1	funny - I have much the same view of our species. We are our own worst enemy.	Jul 04 13:27
schestowitz	Watch how people choose Windows abuse over Free software. Thankfully, that's changing gradually.	Jul 04 13:28
kentm1	For every long-term philosopher type, there are 100 cut-throat political types.	Jul 04 13:28
schestowitz	Same with patents. These are mechanisms of control, power, self benefit.	Jul 04 13:28
kentm1	Anyway, must dash... see you soon.	Jul 04 13:28
schestowitz	Will do.	Jul 04 13:28
*kentm1 has quit ("Leaving.")		Jul 04 14:00
schestowitz	Wow. This one is shocking... http://beranger.org/index.php?page=dia...	Jul 04 14:30
schestowitz	@tessier: BTW, sorry about kentm1. He has those outbursts not just in here. He does this to people; no idea as to why. I've just noticed that the San Diego press talks about Linspire.	Jul 04 14:36
tessier	schestowitz: No problem. It's the Internet. I'm used to it. In this case I suspect it's a case of the old school telecom guys being somehow insecure of the new school Internet guys. For now knowing anything about anything I sure do get a lot of stuff working. :)	Jul 04 17:18
tessier	s/now/not/	Jul 04 17:18
schestowitz	I've just found some interesting articles on Asterisk and PBXs. I'll post them in the next digest. It's exciting to see long-distance voice becoming a commodity. kentm1 is an executive in large telecom (maybe you know it by now), so...	Jul 04 17:20
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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 4th, 2008

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