| schestowitz | http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/infote... | Sep 22 17:43 |
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| schestowitz | "Hansoft, meanwhile, will also be sending speakers to the conference. The company is one of Korea's biggest software firms and has active participation in various open source projects, including Asianux, a Linux version targeted at Asian markets." | Sep 22 17:43 |
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| schestowitz | Some spell it "haansoft" | Sep 22 17:43 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.pcwelt.de/news/englishnews/Software/111711/ "South Korean Linux developer Haansoft Inc. has joined Open Source Development Labs Inc." | Sep 22 17:44 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=859869 "The Linux Foundation, the nonprofit organization dedicated to accelerating the growth of Linux, today announced that it is opening an office in Seoul, Korea. Kwangjei "Daniel" Cho, former senior director of Haansoft, Inc., will be the Linux Foundation director of Korea. " | Sep 22 17:45 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.koreaitdaily.com/ddaily/viewPage.do?sn=100948 "According to Haansoft, this is the first time a Korean PC brand has launched a Linux-based PC. The PC uses “Asianux Desktop 3” operating system along with applications including Haansoft Office 2008 Linux to be launched next month. " | Sep 22 17:45 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.koreaitdaily.com/ddaily/viewPage.do?sn=100897 "Haansoft to donate Linux based Hangul program to Daejeon City [...] The company provided 780 copies of the Linux-based Hangul 2005 to centers that house infants and small children through Childcare Center Association of Daejeon city. " | Sep 22 17:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://english.etnews.co.kr/news/detail.html?id=200701110004 "Haansoft Teams Up with Redgate, Targets Linux Market in Asia [...] Haansoft said on Wednesday that it had teamed up with domestic security firm Redgate to reinforce security for 'Asianux.'" | Sep 22 17:46 |
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| schestowitz | Some guy attacked the messenger in OSnews: http://www.osnews.com/thread?330938 | Sep 22 17:53 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: I find nothing substantial about this pair: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&... | Sep 22 17:55 |
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| schestowitz | "ANALYST DATAMONITOR says that half of global organisations are going to freeze their tech budgets in 2009." http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new... | Sep 22 18:16 |
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| _Doug | How Linux lost the battle for your desktop .. | Sep 22 18:41 |
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| _Doug | http://www.techradar.com/news/computin... | Sep 22 18:41 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.pcanswers.co.uk/node/4639 | Sep 22 18:44 |
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| schestowitz | They published an old article the other day. Linux for the | Sep 22 18:44 |
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| schestowitz | They published an old article the other day. Linux for the g/f | Sep 22 18:44 |
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| _Doug | we're way past 'is it usable by your mom/grand mother.girlfriend' ... | Sep 22 18:47 |
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| trmanco | schestowitz, microsoft can't sue me here in europe if I use a patent of that company right? | Sep 22 18:48 |
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| schestowitz | It's /EASIER/ for that crowd. | Sep 22 18:48 |
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| schestowitz | That's the absurdity of the argument. Unless you need a specialised Windows-only app (typically just 'expert' users), then a lot of burden is unsaddled when settling for GNU/Linux. Less phone calls about slow PC (i.e. malware). | Sep 22 18:49 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: yes, but it needs to go further < http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/2... > | Sep 22 18:50 |
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| MinceR | and even if you do need a specialized windows-only app, it might be possible to either run it in wine (and get of windows entirely) or put it in virtualbox or another vm (and get a better work environment overall) | Sep 22 18:50 |
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| trmanco | schestowitz, thanks | Sep 22 18:51 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, that too. A lot of the specialised apps-type barrier Microsoft is trying to reintroduce by deviating from and 'innovating' above standards, e.g. Silverlight. | Sep 22 18:51 |
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| schestowitz | An economical downturn might be well deserved for shocking stories like this (which hardly receive media coverage): http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/22/c... | Sep 22 18:53 |
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| trmanco | I like this 7 guy | Sep 22 18:59 |
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| trmanco | He gives good replys to the trolls on usenet :) | Sep 22 19:00 |
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| _Doug | How can I virtualize without the high cost of VMware? | Sep 22 19:00 |
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| _Doug | http://www.vmwarecostswaytoomuch.com/ | Sep 22 19:00 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Sep 22 19:00 |
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| _Doug | :) | Sep 22 19:00 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: I wrote about it in BN | Sep 22 19:00 |
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| schestowitz | The trolls went on the defense (for Microsoft) | Sep 22 19:00 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/22... | Sep 22 19:01 |
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| _Doug | ahh | Sep 22 19:01 |
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| _Doug | sorry, I've been preocupied doing some research .. | Sep 22 19:07 |
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| _Doug | back in ten ... | Sep 22 19:07 |
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| AVRS2 | hmm look and feel can be patented in Russia, though not of a program oO | Sep 22 19:08 |
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| schestowitz | So it has to be manufacured, right? | Sep 22 19:08 |
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| AVRS2 | Is that the same way Star Wars toys were patented? | Sep 22 19:08 |
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| AVRS2 | Yes. | Sep 22 19:08 |
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| AVRS2 | Not sure if software patents are prohibited or not… | Sep 22 19:08 |
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| AVRS2 | Programs cannot be patented. | Sep 22 19:08 |
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| AVRS2 | Game rules and methods cannot be patented. | Sep 22 19:09 |
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| schestowitz | Manufacturing is why I find some patents acceptable. Like designs of complex machinery | Sep 22 19:09 |
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| AVRS2 | Topology of integral schemes cannot be patented. | Sep 22 19:09 |
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| schestowitz | How close is the Russian govt' (current) to the US? | Sep 22 19:09 |
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| schestowitz | Nothing like Yeltsin and Clinton, eh? | Sep 22 19:09 |
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| AVRS2 | Even colors are included in that look and feel thing. | Sep 22 19:10 |
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| AVRS2 | don't know, sorry | Sep 22 19:10 |
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| AVRS2 | But industrial machines cannot be patented. | Sep 22 19:11 |
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| schestowitz | India is under siege. | Sep 22 19:11 |
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| AVRS2 | As “ÿÃâ¬Ã¾Ã¼Ãâ¹ÃËûõýýÃâ¹Ã¹ þñÃâ¬Ã°Ã·ÃµÃâ ”. | Sep 22 19:11 |
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| schestowitz | Software patents from the back door. | Sep 22 19:11 |
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| schestowitz | A Brit in USENET tells me that McCreevy might at least be on his way out. | Sep 22 19:12 |
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| AVRS2 | Objects of unstable shapes consisting of fluid, gas etc substances cannot be patented as a sample, either. | Sep 22 19:12 |
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| AVRS2 | (Civil Code, part 4, article(?) 1352, paragraph 5, item 3) | Sep 22 19:13 |
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| AVRS2 | as copied from the Microsoft-IIS-based patent office site. | Sep 22 19:14 |
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| schestowitz | USPT Oh could come to attempt harmonisation (contamination) in Russia. | Sep 22 19:14 |
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| schestowitz | That's what they strive to achieve in the EU in order to inject value into products that lose their value. | Sep 22 19:15 |
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| AVRS2 | http://www.fips.ru/ usability sucks, so it's hard to search; but there are many patents filed by Microsoft. | Sep 22 19:16 |
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| AVRS2 | hmm what is an eMule readme.txt file doing there? | Sep 22 19:17 |
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| AVRS2 | http://www.fips.ru/vptb/readme.txt | Sep 22 19:17 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Sep 22 19:17 |
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| schestowitz | It doesn't work for me. I enabled JS. | Sep 22 19:18 |
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| AVRS2 | I haven't. | Sep 22 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | What a mess in Firefox. | Sep 22 19:18 |
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| AVRS2 | http://www.fips.ru/w3search/query4.asp is just site search. | Sep 22 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | I highlight items on the right and a menu appears far on the left. | Sep 22 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | "eMule Copyright (C)2002-2007 Merkur (devteam at emule-project dot net) This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any late" | Sep 22 19:19 |
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| schestowitz | "b>font color=red"ÃâÃÂÃËÃÅÃÂÃÂÃËÃâ¢! ßþ ÃâõÃâ¦Ã½Ã¸Ãâ¡ÃµÃÂúøü ÿÃâ¬Ã¸Ãâ¡Ã¸Ã½Ã°Ã¼ ôûà<u>i>ýþòÃâ¹Ãâ¦<i>u> ÿûðÃâýÃâ¹Ã⦠ÿþûÃÅ÷þòðÃâõûõù à26.05.08 ÿþ 02.06.08 Ãâ¬Ã°Ã±Ã¾ÃâÃ⹠ÿþ <i>u>þÃâúÃâ¬Ãâ¹ÃâøÎ<u>i> ôþÃÂÃâÃÆÿð ú ñð÷ðü ôðýýÃâ¹Ã⦠Ãâ¡ÃµÃâ¬ÃµÃ· ÃËýÃâõÃâ¬Ã½ÃµÃâ ÿÃâ¬Ã¾Ã¸Ã·Ã²Ã¾Ã´Ã¸ÃâÃÅÃÂàýõ ñÃÆôÃÆÃâ. Ãâð÷Ã⹠ôðýýÃâ¹Ã⦠Ãâ¬Ã°Ã±Ã¾ÃâðÎÃâ ò þñÃâ¹Ãâ¡Ã½Ã¾Ã¼ Ãâ¬ÃµÃ¶Ã¸Ã¼Ãµ. ßÃâ¬Ã¸Ã½Ã¾ÃÂøü ø÷ | Sep 22 19:19 |
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| schestowitz | òøýõýøà÷ð ôþÃÂÃâðòûõýýÃâ¹Ãµ ýõÃÆôþñÃÂÃâòð.font>b>br> | Sep 22 19:19 |
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| schestowitz | " | Sep 22 19:19 |
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| AVRS2 | tsk-tsk | Sep 22 19:20 |
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| AVRS2 | new paid users? | Sep 22 19:20 |
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| schestowitz | eMule? | Sep 22 19:21 |
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| AVRS2 | Windows-only | Sep 22 19:21 |
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| AVRS2 | oh, there is a site map | Sep 22 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, that's what I though. I don't do p2p or torrent. | Sep 22 19:23 |
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| AVRS2 | (Google cache) http://209.85.135.104/search?q=ca... | Sep 22 19:24 |
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| AVRS2 | hm, remove the search query… | Sep 22 19:24 |
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| AVRS2 | I wonder if that's talking about copyright violations. The encoding is wrong. | Sep 22 19:24 |
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| AVRS2 | http://www.fips.ru/russite/ - database search, l/p: guest/guest | Sep 22 19:27 |
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| AVRS2 | http://www.fips.ru/ensite/ - English | Sep 22 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | Does Google Patents cover just USPTO? | Sep 22 19:27 |
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| AVRS2 | The annoying search has to be reset every time it fails… | Sep 22 19:31 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft refers to its anti-Linux playbook to attack VMware: http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1601 | Sep 22 19:32 |
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| _Doug | "Drue Reeves noted that Microsoft representatives were handing out cards with the URL outside VMware’s user conference in Las Vegas last week until they were asked to leave the premises" | Sep 22 19:34 |
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| schestowitz | Typical. | Sep 22 19:37 |
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| schestowitz | They did the same type of stuff before. Let me find it. | Sep 22 19:37 |
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| schestowitz | http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000... | Sep 22 19:38 |
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| _Doug | "“open source software” is the software code that may or may not implement an open standard" | Sep 22 19:39 |
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| _Doug | http://download.microsoft.com/documents/aus... | Sep 22 19:39 |
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| _Doug | :) | Sep 22 19:39 |
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| schestowitz | "This is not the first time that I’ve seen this kind of behaviour. Back in the late 1990s when the Outlook vs Notes war was raging, Microsoft decided to hold its Outlook conference in Boston, which also happened to be the stopping ground of Lotus, maker of Notes. Lotus hired a fleet of vans embossed with its logo to drive round and around the Microsoft exhibition to show the Redmond boys it wasn’t going to take such provocation | Sep 22 19:39 |
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| schestowitz | lying down. Juvenile but amusing." | Sep 22 19:39 |
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| schestowitz | http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,10000... | Sep 22 19:39 |
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| _Doug | Same with the PS2 launch .. | Sep 22 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | WTF... that's how Microsoft explains OSS, eh? | Sep 22 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | "proprietary software is binary code that may or may not disable the PC and spy on the user for $Vendor" | Sep 22 19:41 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, that too. | Sep 22 19:41 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6485483.stm | Sep 22 19:41 |
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| schestowitz | "Microsoft crashes Sony PS3 launch [...] In both London and France Microsoft mounted publicity stunts to rub some of the gloss off Sony's launch events." | Sep 22 19:42 |
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| AVRS2 | http://www.fips.ru/cdfi/fips.dll?key=NYWXIPYEOZLW&a... | Sep 22 19:47 |
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| AVRS2 | Might be an OOXML patent. | Sep 22 19:47 |
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| AVRS2 | "Methods and systems for document format". Describes XML stuff. | Sep 22 19:48 |
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| AVRS2 | *document markup | Sep 22 19:48 |
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| schestowitz | Could be. | Sep 22 19:48 |
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| AVRS2 | Filed 2006138030, published 2008.05.10. | Sep 22 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | They just get loads of 'barriers' (AKA patents) and whatever fits the bill or overlaps somehow can be used to scare folks into cross-licsnsing with cash stream/revenue | Sep 22 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | Submarine. | Sep 22 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | File now, let ISO worry later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_patent | Sep 22 19:49 |
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| _Doug | Open Source makes historic UK breakthrough .. | Sep 22 19:50 |
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| _Doug | http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/09/... | Sep 22 19:50 |
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| schestowitz | So weird. | Sep 22 19:50 |
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| schestowitz | Sirius slammed BECTA like nobody's business. | Sep 22 19:50 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe they threatened with a EU complaint, so BECTA 'came through' | Sep 22 19:50 |
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| _Doug | "Jill Henry from of Novell UK confirmed her outfit had also won a place on the framework" | Sep 22 19:50 |
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| schestowitz | Novell UK. Microsoft might cheer. | Sep 22 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | Vista so-loo-shens | Sep 22 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | with 'open source' OOXML | Sep 22 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ne... | Sep 22 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | "Microsoft licensing switch pleases Becta ...Becta hails Microsoft progress" | Sep 22 19:52 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.zdnet.co.uk/i/z5/illo/nw/lead... | Sep 22 19:52 |
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| _Doug | "Norkom will work with IBM to deliver new financial crime and compliance (FCC) software solutions to the world’s leading financial institutions." | Sep 22 19:55 |
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| _Doug | http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/114... | Sep 22 19:55 |
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| schestowitz | Good luck with 320 million zombies out there. | Sep 22 19:56 |
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| _Doug | :) | Sep 22 19:57 |
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| _Doug | but they are at least 'compliant' zombies :) | Sep 22 19:57 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/compu... http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/ar... | Sep 22 19:57 |
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| _Doug | back in ten .. | Sep 22 19:57 |
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| schestowitz | 'compliant' zombie... *LOL* like "Microsoft Works" | Sep 22 19:58 |
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| schestowitz | I've just found this old gem: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.os2.advoca... I've asked someone if she happens to know if Microsoft still does this. Let's wait and see. Blast from the past? We shall see... | Sep 22 20:07 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-news-59/a-n... | Sep 22 20:16 |
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| trmanco | gee | Sep 22 20:18 |
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| trmanco | why did it have to be hosted on one of those free forum hosts | Sep 22 20:19 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know. I just found it as I went along catching up. Lots of good news today. Not so good for VMware, which is probably going to make things nasty. | Sep 22 20:20 |
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| trmanco | it would be nice to have sidux-pt.org or something like that | Sep 22 20:21 |
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| trmanco | or a free .co.cc domain looks more professional than the free forum sub domain | Sep 22 20:21 |
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| schestowitz | I mailed Mary Jo Foley about it. She reckons Microsoft wants to ruin VMware and not GNU/Linux, but she should realise that they want to block GNU/Linux /VIA/ Hyper-vell. | Sep 22 20:22 |
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| trmanco | but it's always nice to see that portuguese people are interested in the Linux-Sidux distro | Sep 22 20:22 |
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| schestowitz | Also she posted this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1599 The way I read it, Ballmer gives himself an excuse to leave the company early. Microsoft approved going into debt last night. | Sep 22 20:23 |
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| trmanco | doesn't vmware use one module from the Linux kernel? | Sep 22 20:23 |
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| schestowitz | YEs. | Sep 22 20:23 |
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| trmanco | vm-something I think | Sep 22 20:23 |
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| schestowitz | But that doesn't matter much. If it became Free software, Microsoft would still lie and bundle. | Sep 22 20:23 |
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| trmanco | we can never trust that company | Sep 22 20:24 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1124... | Sep 22 20:24 |
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| schestowitz | "Some of these competitors have in the past and may in the future take advantage of their existing relationships to engage in business practices that make our products less attractive to our end users. For example, Microsoft has implemented distribution arrangements with x86 system vendors and independent software vendors, or ISVs, related to certain of their operating systems that only permit the use of Microsoft’s virtualizatio | Sep 22 20:24 |
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| schestowitz | n format and do not allow the use of our corresponding format." | Sep 22 20:24 |
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| schestowitz | "Microsoft has also implemented pricing policies that require customers to pay additional license fees based on certain uses of virtualization technology. These distribution and licensing restrictions, as well as other business practices that may be adopted in the future by our competitors, could materially impact our prospects regardless of the merits of our products." | Sep 22 20:24 |
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| schestowitz | AVRS2 might appreciate this: "Wikipedia, the notorious..." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/comment/andrew... Notorious? | Sep 22 20:27 |
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| jose | vmware stock is priced high and this is just the excuse needed to have it fall to a manageable level that "stockholders" will find more attractive. ..oh, yes, vmw still has much further to drop. | Sep 22 20:28 |
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| AVRS2 | schestowitz: edit?.. that's if another quack publishes it | Sep 22 20:29 |
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| schestowitz | Edit the Independent article. Correct if. Oh wait, you can't.. | Sep 22 20:29 |
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| AVRS2 | heh | Sep 22 20:30 |
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| schestowitz | Not even comments or chat. It's carved on a rock. Wikipedia is notorious. Deal with it! | Sep 22 20:30 |
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| trmanco | http://dustinkirkland.wordpress.com/2008/09/18... | Sep 22 20:30 |
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| schestowitz | Britannica is your God. | Sep 22 20:31 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: Shuttleworth's friend seem to be defending him cblindly. | Sep 22 20:31 |
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| schestowitz | Same with the codecs where I don't agree with Canonical. it's the patch thing that's deceiving though. | Sep 22 20:31 |
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| schestowitz | A lot of people are happily giving Ubuntu/Canonical flak for distributing GPL software very widely, but it's OK with them that Canonical sells proprietary software, patents, and MS codecs. | Sep 22 20:33 |
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| AVRS2 | http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2005110750 -- the original US/WIPO version of that Russian patent. | Sep 22 20:37 |
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| schestowitz | Now I know what Microsoft folks do all day. | Sep 22 20:39 |
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| schestowitz | Though I commented on this about 6 months ago when I noticed Microsoft had little output. | Sep 22 20:39 |
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| AVRS2 | It's too late for them to rename themselves into a "New IP company". | Sep 22 20:40 |
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| schestowitz | various publications has reported that Microsoft was doing a massive operation of filing patents (more than peers), so I realised they paused development and just acquired some monopolies instead. | Sep 22 20:40 |
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| schestowitz | Well, that's the bet on a future biz model anyway. | Sep 22 20:40 |
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| schestowitz | This one made the front page of Free Software Daily about one hour ago: http://www.fsdaily.com/Opposition/Microso... | Sep 22 20:40 |
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| schestowitz | Actually, it's funny that the top 3 items in their front page right now are from BoycottNovell. All 3./ | Sep 22 20:41 |
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| AVRS2 | IIRC, game rules are patented in the US? | Sep 22 20:44 |
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| AVRS2 | E.g. Arimaa, IIRC, is patented… the pieces are PD for promotion… | Sep 22 20:45 |
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| schestowitz | Solitaire too. | Sep 22 20:45 |
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| AVRS2 | http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/np... | Sep 22 20:45 |
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| schestowitz | Funny cause it's actually playing in the background at the moment (The Carpenters) | Sep 22 20:45 |
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| AVRS2 | Solitaire? | Sep 22 20:45 |
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| schestowitz | Let me find the link | Sep 22 20:46 |
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| AVRS2 | hmm yeah I've seen it | Sep 22 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, big troll Goldberg walks around with it. | Sep 22 20:46 |
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| AVRS2 | Is it like a wheel, or is it a pretty new game? | Sep 22 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://games.slashdot.org/ar... | Sep 22 20:46 |
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| jose | schestowitz: speaking of reciprocal deals with companies now led by former softies, and taking into account what you quoted of ballmer leaving door open to leaving, they might be setting msft for a huge downfall. | Sep 22 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&am... | Sep 22 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | It's freaky stuff. This troll is suing the whole world cause of this... even Digg, IIRC. | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | I wrote about it several times in Bn | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| AVRS2 | Oh wait, it's Klondike. | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| AVRS2 | *it _is_ Klondike | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| jose | ms buys time today to allow more stock to be sold high while the partner wins tomorrow in court (if that means anything). | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| AVRS2 | AKA old Russian game “ÚþÃÂÃâ¹Ã½ÃºÃ°” (according to a book, at least). | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| jose | certainly novell and vmware are in a position to do this and benefit long term (especially novell). | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | jose: wel... | Sep 22 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | As Parish says, you'll get bullied for saying so. | Sep 22 20:48 |
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| trmanco | the old logo of slackware is back :) | Sep 22 20:48 |
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| schestowitz | Either way: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&... | Sep 22 20:48 |
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| schestowitz | OOps. http://slated.org/microsoft_loses_90_bil... | Sep 22 20:48 |
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| schestowitz | It's to do with market evaluation, which Ballmer openly admitted is exaggerated (what??!? Is he pushing his own stock down?) | Sep 22 20:49 |
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| jose | maybe it's a game and ms just wants partners to think so. | Sep 22 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | The obsession with Google shows envy of a susccessful business model thatn revolves around subs and ads. | Sep 22 20:49 |
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| jose | you can win with derivatives and other positions, etc, gates private investments win should microsoft fail.. as an example | Sep 22 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | AVRS2: what's that game? | Sep 22 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: good. That was better. | Sep 22 20:50 |
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| schestowitz | More recognisable. | Sep 22 20:50 |
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| trmanco | yes it is better even tho it is old :P | Sep 22 20:50 |
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| schestowitz | jose: why would Mirosoft do that? | Sep 22 20:50 |
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| AVRS2 | Is that patent for multitasking? | Sep 22 20:50 |
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| jose | set up for fall or what? | Sep 22 20:50 |
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| AVRS2 | schestowitz: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Kl...) | Sep 22 20:50 |
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| schestowitz | They have used their shill press like Motley Fool (they still do) to entrap mom-and-pops who buy the stock. | Sep 22 20:51 |
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| schestowitz | The whole recommendation frenzy drove up the stock. They grew a a myth | Sep 22 20:51 |
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| AVRS2 | I thought it was a patent on something specific usually called "solitaire"… so thought it was Windows Solitaire | Sep 22 20:51 |
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| schestowitz | Rememeber who's at the seed of Microsoft: a marketing guy and a lawsyer who knew how to escape the law with bail (settlement) since he got arrest for speeding. | Sep 22 20:51 |
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| AVRS2 | But the cease and desist notice looks like it is about multitasking. | Sep 22 20:52 |
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| jose | btw, playing down his own stock can be bullish if the big investors want to pick up more of it at this price.. i know, lots of possibilities and they are conflicting. | Sep 22 20:52 |
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| schestowitz | The other chap is just shouting advertising, advertising, advertising. | Sep 22 20:52 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkA9L2J2gY | Sep 22 20:52 |
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| schestowitz | AVRS2: that Golberg dude may as well just exchange some checks with Microsoft for making this trap popularised/ubiquitous. | Sep 22 20:53 |
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| schestowitz | It's such a coincidence that the song Solitaire was playing here exactly when the subject was brought up. | Sep 22 20:53 |
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| schestowitz | jose: gates seems to be selling as fast as he's allowed. | Sep 22 20:54 |
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| schestowitz | Let me find some info I have in mind. | Sep 22 20:54 |
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| jose | i'm not trying to predict. note that gates would still need years to get out. msft could be in for a rise. i know this comment won't be too popular.. it's just a possibility. | Sep 22 20:55 |
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| schestowitz | OK, got it. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/b... | Sep 22 20:55 |
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| schestowitz | Scroll down to "Out of curiosity, I took the Yahoo stock link that John Bailo posted a few " | Sep 22 20:56 |
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| schestowitz | "In essence according to Yahoo! Finance Edgar Online, sale was about $3.6 " | Sep 22 20:56 |
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| schestowitz | billiob | Sep 22 20:56 |
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| jose | they have a very low p/e. if loans and what not can help, they might have a few years left of earnings growth.. again, i'm not predicting this or the opposite, but we should keep open mind about it. | Sep 22 20:56 |
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| jose | gates also likely knows that perhaps beyond a few years msft might die. | Sep 22 20:56 |
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| schestowitz | jose, they disappoointed the market in April and Aug. | Sep 22 20:57 |
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| schestowitz | I very much doubt that amid so much problems they'll impress the market in Oct even if they lower expectations as they did back in Aug. | Sep 22 20:57 |
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| schestowitz | jose: wait... | Sep 22 20:58 |
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| jose | i'm not just talking about 1 quarter. | Sep 22 20:58 |
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| schestowitz | I'll find you an eye-opening thing Ifound some days ago about devolving into a patent troll. | Sep 22 20:58 |
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| schestowitz | Okay, it might take a while to find, so I'll unload it off memory. | Sep 22 20:58 |
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| jose | there are many scenarios where bgates and others might be in a position to benefit if microsoft fails, but the monopolies are so valuable that i don't think they'd give up on ms that easily | Sep 22 20:59 |
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| schestowitz | Marshal Phelps (spelling?) used to work in IBM under IP, IIRC. he spoke about gates' new obsession with patents, one that no other CEO he new to be bothering with. | Sep 22 20:59 |
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| jose | desperation fever perhaps. | Sep 22 20:59 |
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| schestowitz | Anyway, that was some years back. gates also was shown planning to block Linuxu sing patents in an E-mail he sent Ben Fathi (of Windows) | Sep 22 21:00 |
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| jose | i think world+dog+kitten should sell their sw patents to gates | Sep 22 21:00 |
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| schestowitz | The latest bit of the puzzle is the WSJ article abotu Myhrvold. | Sep 22 21:00 |
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| jose | then we'd have almost unanimity for changing the law to something sensible | Sep 22 21:00 |
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| schestowitz | Nathan Myhrvold, who was very close to Gates on the job, said that Gates needed to find some 'solution'... something to do with patents... so Nathan left the company and found the 'solution', I guess. He amassed 20,000 patents. | Sep 22 21:01 |
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| jose | Marshal Phelps .. it's Michael Phellps... lol | Sep 22 21:01 |
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| schestowitz | jose: I saw your comment about this in Linux Today. | Sep 22 21:01 |
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| schestowitz | Let me check. | Sep 22 21:01 |
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| jose | phelps | Sep 22 21:01 |
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| _Doug | speculation unless you provide solid proof. just supply the facts and let us draw out own conclusions .. | Sep 22 21:01 |
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| schestowitz | Marshall Phelps, I think | Sep 22 21:02 |
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| jose | yeah, i'm repeating myself | Sep 22 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: I have facts. Want me to fetrch the links? | Sep 22 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | I have exact quotes. | Sep 22 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/1... | Sep 22 21:03 |
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| schestowitz | “Other than Bill Gates, I don’t know of any high tech CEO that sits down to review the company’s IP portfolio,” said Phelps, who ran IBM’s IP business before joining Microsoft four years ago. | Sep 22 21:03 |
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| _Doug | Bluffing in Bridge .. :) | Sep 22 21:03 |
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| _Doug | http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980... | Sep 22 21:03 |
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| schestowitz | From http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArti... | Sep 22 21:03 |
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| schestowitz | http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122142717791833671.html | Sep 22 21:03 |
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| schestowitz | "Nathan Myhrvold: The genesis of this idea was when I was at Microsoft. We had a problem with patent liability. All these people were coming to sue us or demand payment. And Bill (Gates) asked me to think about if there was a solution. This is what I came up with." | Sep 22 21:04 |
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| schestowitz | There are more links of this kind. We just need to accumulate more as time goes by. | Sep 22 21:04 |
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| _Doug | Nice solution, Nathan. I do admire your skill :) | Sep 22 21:05 |
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| schestowitz | The only reason for Microsoft to bluff is the regulators. Keep a low profile and all.. | Sep 22 21:05 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: *wrist-slap* going personal, eh? | Sep 22 21:05 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Sep 22 21:06 |
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| jose | the phelps' link sure sounds like someone at ms is confident about the next stage of their company's life.. but that can mean many things | Sep 22 21:06 |
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| schestowitz | Where specifically? | Sep 22 21:07 |
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| schestowitz | I see that Red hat is doing well (based on its books), but buybacks continue. | Sep 22 21:07 |
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| *AVRS2 finally reads One patent was for a network gaming system, and one patent was for a method that allowed games to be played on a network. | Sep 22 21:07 |
| jose | the quote you put up.. that sounds like someone that sees a future for ms | Sep 22 21:07 |
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| schestowitz | I should add that some companies are doing pretty alright. | Sep 22 21:08 |
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| _Doug | Nathan is a gourmet, makes a good SouciSaus or something ? | Sep 22 21:08 |
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| schestowitz | Recipe for sucking up money. Has he patented the IV model yet? | Sep 22 21:08 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Sep 22 21:08 |
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| jose | lol | Sep 22 21:09 |
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| schestowitz | IBM did something like that, didn't it? I can't recall the specifics. Offshoring too. | Sep 22 21:09 |
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| schestowitz | Alfresco seems to be easting SharePoint's lunch | Sep 22 21:09 |
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| _Doug | You can't blame indivisuals for gaming the system, no more than you could blame Ghengis Khan for what he did. | Sep 22 21:10 |
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| schestowitz | since it cannot be tracked (usage), it's hard to tell though. An article from Friday showed that Sharepoint is lots of hype, no results/substance, so it's reassuring that many people take a free ride on FOSS. | Sep 22 21:10 |
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| _Doug | Although nathan could be compared to Henry the Eights Cromwell :) | Sep 22 21:10 |
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| schestowitz | Sirius just got a contract with education. | Sep 22 21:10 |
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| jose | from the phelps link: "Many companies see patents as a way to keep competitors from entering a market. A better view is looking at the company's know how as a way to open the door to co-development deals that expand markets—even for traditional competitors." | Sep 22 21:10 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolbox/open-source/open-s... | Sep 22 21:10 |
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| schestowitz | Can't make those "IT shops" too happy. | Sep 22 21:11 |
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| *PetoKraus (n=Peter@cpc2-broo2-0-0-cust218.renf.cable.ntl.com) has left #boycottnovell ("The purpose of IRC is to...IDLE...") | Sep 22 21:11 |
| jose | ms leading the charge against freerange foss | Sep 22 21:11 |
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| jose | partners wanted. | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| schestowitz | Well, who else is fighting? Oracle targets MySQL. | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| _Doug | Nathan Myhrvold: "Intellectual property is the next software." | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| _Doug | software of the mind ? | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| schestowitz | I guess that just makes Oracle worried about Sun now. | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: did he say that? | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| AVRS2 | gn | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| schestowitz | gn, AVRS2 | Sep 22 21:12 |
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| _Doug | Nathan Myhrvold master of Sous-Vide .. | Sep 22 21:14 |
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| _Doug | http://www.wired.com/culture/lifes... | Sep 22 21:14 |
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| _Doug | There, so stop beating up on him Roy, else we'll never get invited to dinner .. :) | Sep 22 21:14 |
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| jose | same link: "Separately, Phelps set up two years ago a small group that tries to spin out technologies Microsoft has developed but cannot immediately use. The so-called Intellectual Property Ventures group which has less than ten people has struck 30 deals so far, he said." | Sep 22 21:15 |
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| jose | ms makes money while others develop products. | Sep 22 21:15 |
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| jose | then they steal the product/ideas anyway | Sep 22 21:15 |
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| _Doug | Yes he did say "Intellectual property is the next software." | Sep 22 21:15 |
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| jose | ka-ching | Sep 22 21:15 |
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| schestowitz | What?!?! | Sep 22 21:15 |
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| schestowitz | That's one for my quotes DB | Sep 22 21:16 |
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| schestowitz | Gt the URL? | Sep 22 21:16 |
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| jose | steal, buy, whatever.. with their levers they tend to get favorable deals and R&D | Sep 22 21:16 |
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| _Doug | wait .. | Sep 22 21:16 |
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| schestowitz | I trust you. | Sep 22 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | I've just added it. | Sep 22 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | Assuming the words are exactly the same. | Sep 22 21:17 |
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| _Doug | 'and Myhrvold repeats almost as a mantra, "Intellectual property is the next software." ' | Sep 22 21:19 |
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| _Doug | http://www.newsweek.com/id/55777/page/2 | Sep 22 21:19 |
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| schestowitz | Thanks. As our mutual friend says, "I want to show reader who it is." | Sep 22 21:19 |
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| _Doug | It's a bit simplistic to solely blame MS and Co, I mean where else can they go, since the desktop market is saturated .. ? | Sep 22 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | IBM also is a problem. | Sep 22 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | But IBM is not fighting FOSS. It can't. It doesn't need to. | Sep 22 21:21 |
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| schestowitz | IBM sells hardware and services. | Sep 22 21:21 |
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| _Doug | YOu can't keep selling the same Windows over and over again, I mean not much improvment since NT 5 .. really :) | Sep 22 21:21 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft sells Windows and Office. | Sep 22 21:21 |
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| schestowitz | It did try some hardware like Zune and XBox and failed badly. Same with Web services... just $billions rakes in losses. | Sep 22 21:21 |
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| schestowitz | *raked | Sep 22 21:21 |
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| _Doug | licenses, again and again, remeber the perpetual license that expires with the next iteration of Windows | Sep 22 21:22 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, who is it that said Bill Gates innovated /versions/? | Sep 22 21:22 |
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| _Doug | Bill Gates ? | Sep 22 21:22 |
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| schestowitz | Razor blade strategies are benevolent in comparison. At least you get something fresh each time. | Sep 22 21:22 |
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| _Doug | MS gamed the [eco]system only tyhey played it better than everyone else .. | Sep 22 21:23 |
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| schestowitz | Whereas Microsoft can forced you, despite resistance, to get something different you don't want (Ribbon, Vista, WGA, etc.) | Sep 22 21:23 |
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| jose | _Doug: i'll have to remember that excuse about capturing markets. we owned everything else so... | Sep 22 21:23 |
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| jose | as if there weren't more interesting things to do in life. | Sep 22 21:23 |
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| _Doug | capturing markets ? | Sep 22 21:24 |
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| schestowitz | "Greed has no bounds," says Microsoft. | Sep 22 21:25 |
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| _Doug | Is that a quote ? | Sep 22 21:25 |
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| schestowitz | http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/03/14/fee-fight-invol... | Sep 22 21:25 |
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| schestowitz | '“Human Greed Has No Bounds,” Says MSFT in Fee Dispute' | Sep 22 21:25 |
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| jose | no i just said that in response to your comment about then *needing* to go elsewhere because of saturated desktop | Sep 22 21:25 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft actually said it about others. Kettle... black.. pot. | Sep 22 21:25 |
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| jose | everyone always has to go somewhere else. | Sep 22 21:26 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, Ballmer spoke about this recently. | Sep 22 21:26 |
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| schestowitz | Wait, I have an ogg | Sep 22 21:26 |
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| _Doug | corrected: “This is grossly excessive by any measure, and truly proves the maxim that lawyers greed has no bounds,” | Sep 22 21:26 |
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| schestowitz | I put the video here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/0... | Sep 22 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | Towards the end he explains that they need to move to other areas. | Sep 22 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: well, isn't Microsoft mainly lawyers and marketers on the front which matters? | Sep 22 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | It was created by a lawyer and marketer. | Sep 22 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | The engineer (Allen) left | Sep 22 21:28 |
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| _Doug | The current situation is like the early days of television, only the tube makers get to dictate to the tv set manufacturers what programs they can show. Dictate to the tv stations what hardware they can use and eventually dictate to them what programs to make .. | Sep 22 21:28 |
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| _Doug | They also patent RF transmission .. :) | Sep 22 21:29 |
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| _Doug | ALL forms of RM transmission :] | Sep 22 21:29 |
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| _Doug | ALL forms of RF transmission :] | Sep 22 21:29 |
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| _Doug | It's an insane situation .. | Sep 22 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | Everything needs to be owned by something/one. | Sep 22 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | Except axioms like 1+1=2 | Sep 22 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | Donote a patent to hungry children today, | Sep 22 21:31 |
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| _Doug | But, as I said, where are the big 'innovators' to go, where's the new markets ? | Sep 22 21:31 |
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| schestowitz | OPPC = One Patent Per Child | Sep 22 21:31 |
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| _Doug | open source seeds cause world hunger :) | Sep 22 21:31 |
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| MinceR | One Shackle Per Child | Sep 22 21:32 |
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| _Doug | GM Crops to Fight World Hunger: A Myth? | Sep 22 21:33 |
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| _Doug | http://www.gm.org/?p=53 | Sep 22 21:33 |
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| trmanco | ever heard of claranet?? | Sep 22 21:33 |
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| schestowitz | Buy a shackle, give one free | Sep 22 21:33 |
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| trmanco | any relations with trolls or something | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| trmanco | ? | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | heard of it | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| trmanco | and | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | isn't that Brad Templeton? | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | Let me check | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| trmanco | ok | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | of EFF | Sep 22 21:34 |
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| _Doug | Hunger in Africa blamed on western rejection of GM food .. | Sep 22 21:35 |
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| _Doug | http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment... | Sep 22 21:35 |
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| schestowitz | No, it's ClariNet | Sep 22 21:35 |
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| _Doug | I thought it was all the guns we sold them ? | Sep 22 21:35 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.templetons.com/brad/#clarinet | Sep 22 21:35 |
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| schestowitz | I used to read his blog. Nice stuff on his site... good multi-head wallpapers | Sep 22 21:35 |
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| _Doug | So schestowitz, what is the alternative to an Intellectual Property type economy ? | Sep 22 21:37 |
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| schestowitz | Look at the bright side, _Doug. Less omissions and deforestation. | Sep 22 21:37 |
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| schestowitz | What Stallman laid as a visiion. | Sep 22 21:37 |
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| trmanco | ok thanks | Sep 22 21:37 |
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| schestowitz | Software as free as the air we breathe in the sense that we chape it. | Sep 22 21:38 |
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| schestowitz | The IT profession then revolves around customising, architecture, etc. | Sep 22 21:38 |
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| _Doug | Templeton: sounds like a commie :o | Sep 22 21:38 |
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| schestowitz | If there's no money in FOSS, explain this from today's news: http://www.computerweekly.com/Articles/200... | Sep 22 21:39 |
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| schestowitz | "Linux systems administrators earn €£30,000 to €£45,000." | Sep 22 21:39 |
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| _Doug | Lets bring back the cold war, at lest then we could all hate a common enemy ! | Sep 22 21:39 |
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| schestowitz | The matter of fact is that software requires just tweaks, evolution. it's like music, even art. Music you can't put in a box, unlike a drawing. | Sep 22 21:39 |
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| schestowitz | But in Xerox age, art and photography too are losing value, but it's a good thing. Where would Google be if it were not for vast amounts of free (to acces) info?\ | Sep 22 21:40 |
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| _Doug | Exactly, after version 111, there's no real need to upgrade .. | Sep 22 21:40 |
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| schestowitz | Pay the library for some silly card, then walk in, 'rent' books... no centralisation, no search, no collaboration. | Sep 22 21:41 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: he might be. A regular attendant of Burning Man, mind you... | Sep 22 21:41 |
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| schestowitz | Same as Schmidt. *LOL* | Sep 22 21:42 |
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| _Doug | Now, we get a silly card that can be cross-referenced with our browsing habits .. | Sep 22 21:42 |
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| schestowitz | Phorm... | Sep 22 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | See these: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/20759/1054/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/2... | Sep 22 21:43 |
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| _Doug | Burning Man: who me ? | Sep 22 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | I'll rant about it later on. The EU Commission might step up to confront Brown and the cabinet of spies. | Sep 22 21:44 |
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| schestowitz | If I were to put "paranoid" hat on, I'd say that the govt' is intrested because they profile people, just like in China. This makes it very easy for the govt' to quickly compile a list of suspects and dangerous men. | Sep 22 21:44 |
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| _Doug | schestowitz, what is NAthan and Bill to do if they can't sell 'Intellectual Property' ? I'm sure they are interested in the reply .. | Sep 22 21:45 |
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| schestowitz | Since Phorm does all the profiling algos, it doesn't cost the MI5 a dime. They can use warrants to make snoops, just as the spooks in the US (for a fact) do with Google's datacentres and some others. In the UK, there was half a million such requests last year. | Sep 22 21:45 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: businesses rise and fall. | Sep 22 21:46 |
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| schestowitz | IBM, then Microsoft, then... maybe Google. | Sep 22 21:46 |
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| schestowitz | People have shown some charts where these 3 overlap. Google is allowed to gain tremendous power... over information, not just tools. | Sep 22 21:46 |
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| jose | _Doug: well wasn't bill giving away his money (lol) | Sep 22 21:47 |
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| schestowitz | To whom? BP? | Sep 22 21:47 |
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| _Doug | Time to go .. | Sep 22 21:47 |
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| jose | people get highs on different things. | Sep 22 21:47 |
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| jose | i'll be leaving soon too i think | Sep 22 21:48 |
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| _Doug | Try and keep on topic tomorrow .. | Sep 22 21:48 |
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| _Doug | And Bil and Nathan are very nice and give lots of money to charity (how about a grand here billg) | Sep 22 21:48 |
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| *_Doug has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Sep 22 21:48 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | Well, he said stuff in private. | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | Now that he's gone I'll 'leak' it. :-D | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | <_Doug> Talking of MS finances in the current climate is counter productive .. | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | <_Doug> Especially in this forum .. | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | <_Doug> It make you sound like a member of the anti_Microsoft Linux Taliban, better to come across as all sweatness and light .. | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | <_Doug> sweetness | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | <_Doug> No one want to hear bad financial news right now. | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | <_Doug> If MS tanks, it'll take the rest of the IT industry with it .. | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | <_Doug> This isn't COLA, raise the tone a little .. | Sep 22 21:49 |
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| MinceR | m$ can't harm the IT industry any more by tanking than it already has by doing what it does. | Sep 22 21:50 |
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| *trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)") | Sep 22 21:51 |
| schestowitz | Yes, I thought so too. | Sep 22 21:52 |
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| schestowitz | Well, the way the pyramid works, no matter what happens to Microsoft, some former VPs and presidents remain super-wealthy. | Sep 22 21:53 |
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| jose | not sure where _Doug got his information that IT would tank.. proba from the same place he heard billg was nice ..\ | Sep 22 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | They pull from the system what they can. MSFT is just the grain, the factory. As long as the SEC stays away, their fortune stays safe. | Sep 22 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | jose: I think ti's GL that had him influence. cj, who is in this channel, is a Microsoft employees. | Sep 22 21:54 |
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| schestowitz | *employee. Some time ago he used the "gates" charity" song against me, trying to discredit me for not swallowing the words of the Gates Fundation's [sic] PR dept., e.g. former head's husband planting articles in Time. | Sep 22 21:55 |
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| schestowitz | It's also used extensively for sentimental blackmail. | Sep 22 21:56 |
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| jose | branding ms needs the help more so as people get clued in | Sep 22 21:57 |
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| schestowitz | Lookie here: http://commandline.org.uk/python/2008/sep/22/ohloh-and-pop... | Sep 22 22:01 |
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| schestowitz | Former Microsoft employees enter FOSS world, then publish 'studies' about C# beating everything. | Sep 22 22:01 |
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| jose | ms will always have existing examples to point to to "justify" their current moves. it's just a style of living. gotta do something with your life i guess. i don't doubt some softies have had difficult or neglected childhoods.. | Sep 22 22:02 |
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| schestowitz | Wow! What a surprise. Microsoft employees promoting Microsoft's agenda without anyone realising where they come from? Either way, I left a comment. That's what I call "corporate poison". They also push FOSS developers to go for Windows. | Sep 22 22:02 |
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| *PetoKraus (n=Peter@cpc2-broo2-0-0-cust218.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 22 22:02 |
| jose | quality sw is the most important things is what they try to accomplish through hook or crook or whateve ris the saying (ends justifies means) | Sep 22 22:03 |
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| schestowitz | To some people, money trumps lots of things including quality | Sep 22 22:03 |
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| schestowitz | .Just watch those MS-'approved' IDC figures that count O/S success in terms of revenue, not units. | Sep 22 22:04 |
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| jose | well, they don't always achieve quality, but that is what they sell, that they are the epitome of quality | Sep 22 22:04 |
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| jose | savings | Sep 22 22:04 |
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| jose | etc | Sep 22 22:04 |
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| jose | i'll be leaving soon | Sep 22 22:05 |
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| schestowitz | :-( | Sep 22 22:05 |
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| jose | the talkers are dropping like flies | Sep 22 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | *LOL* Well, that's not a problem. | Sep 22 22:09 |
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