IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: December 28th, 2008

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2008-12-29 09:01:14 UTC
Modified: 2008-12-29 09:01:14 UTC

MinceR	gn	Dec 28 02:27
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mib_rl8vja	hola	Dec 28 02:55
tessier	mib_rl8vja: hola. que pasa?	Dec 28 03:05
mib_rl8vja	not much just hanging out	Dec 28 03:09
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schestowitz	http://www.stallman.org/archives/20... "Mike Connell, formerly Karl Rove's chief IT consultant, died in an airplane "accident". He was going to testify about illegally deleted emails and vote-stealing in 2004."	Dec 28 07:49
tessier	As a pilot I'd like to know more about that.	Dec 28 08:55
tessier	Odds are it was an accident though	Dec 28 08:55
tessier	It would be hard to stage an accident with an airplane. They do a pretty good investigation. I the plane were sabotaged it would likely be found out.	Dec 28 08:56
schestowitz	Dr. Kelly..	Dec 28 08:57
tessier	?	Dec 28 09:07
schestowitz	http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_po...	Dec 28 09:09
schestowitz	http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=vi... "The British media has become embroiled in yet another set of distortions regarding the death of British government weapons inspector Dr. David Kelly in July 2003. Kelly died in mysterious circumstances in the woods near his home in Oxfordshire."	Dec 28 09:09
schestowitz	"Kelly was Britain's foremost expert on biological weapons, with direct access to WMD intelligence on Iraq. In the months leading up to his death, he had become increasingly skeptical regarding Iraq's alleged WMDs. "It was Dr Kelly who exposed claims by President George Bush, Tony Blair and Colin Powell that mobile biological warfare units had been found in Iraq as false." (Independent, 25 July 2003)"	Dec 28 09:10
schestowitz	'According to the Hutton inquiry report: "Dr Kelly took his own life... [T]he principal cause of death was bleeding from incised wounds to his left wrist which Dr Kelly had inflicted on himself with the knife found beside his body''. '	Dec 28 09:10
tessier	Sounds like he had already squeeled. Why kill him then?	Dec 28 09:10
tessier	And did he make the cuts down or across?	Dec 28 09:10
schestowitz	I'm not suggesting it	Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz	That's just a top result that came up in Google	Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz	Not that I look at it though, I wonder, "what kind of an idiot kills self with a knife?	Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz	What is this, like falling on one's sword?	Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz	"The inquiry led by Lord Hutton pointed to "suicide" as the cause of death, in contradiction with the results of the autopsy. "Suicide was never proved, either by the Coroner or Lord Hutton, as required by law". (See Dr. Stephen Frost, et al, Global Research, 28 November 2006) "	Dec 28 09:12
schestowitz	http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/jan/2... "David Kelly told the BBC that it could take Saddam Hussein "days or weeks" to mobilise weapons of mass destruction, not the 45 minutes claimed in the government's Iraq weapons dossier."	Dec 28 09:14
schestowitz	Well, if only they /HAD/ WoMD	Dec 28 09:14
schestowitz	IIRC, they only had means for producing some, but no weapons.	Dec 28 09:15
MinceR	geekings	Dec 28 10:19
schestowitz	The Enderle shill is at it again... attacking Linux... "What is kind of interesting with netbooks so far is that the Linux configurations have not done well with vendors reporting some of the highest return rates they have ever seen in a PC-like product for those running this platform." < http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/conte... >	Dec 28 10:46
schestowitz	The writer is a Microsoft shill and 'buddy' of Ballmer. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/23/r... http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/1...	Dec 28 10:46
schestowitz	Here's Novell's slandering of OpenOffice: http://www.hardocp.com/news.html...	Dec 28 10:50
schestowitz	New Novelldows crash video: Ubuntu vs Windows	Dec 28 11:00
schestowitz	OOps. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=...	Dec 28 11:00
trmanco	schestowitz, identity theft :\|	Dec 28 11:02
trmanco	on COLA	Dec 28 11:02
schestowitz	Twice	Dec 28 11:02
trmanco	yes	Dec 28 11:02
trmanco	idiots	Dec 28 11:02
trmanco	the one faking tattoo almost caught me	Dec 28 11:03
trmanco	the second one faking you was no problem, good thing you use a pgp sig	Dec 28 11:03
schestowitz	gasp	Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz	Some error in BN	Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz	DB connection	Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz	I needed to sort things out to reduce spam this morning.	Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz	SO I disabled all comment, except for in new posts	Dec 28 11:04
trmanco	LOL BSOD with Novell software on Windows	Dec 28 11:05
trmanco	ha	Dec 28 11:05
trmanco	schestowitz, I usually log into phpmyadmin and repair and then optimize the tables	Dec 28 11:06
schestowitz	I'm seeing a lot of BS in Tech Blorge today	Dec 28 11:08
schestowitz	This is exhausting.	Dec 28 11:08
schestowitz	The media talks about "intellectual property" as a legitimate thing time after time after so time that people will incapable of thinking about it differently.	Dec 28 11:08
schestowitz	The editors, who get their wages from people like Bill Gates, just carry on reciting words like "pirates", the indisputable assumption that Windows is user friendly and that success is defined only in terms of wealth.	Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz	I'm going to write about it	Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz	I've just asked the editor of some site	Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz	Let's see if they are willing to gut Microsoft	Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz	More needs to be written about the slimy side	Dec 28 11:10
schestowitz	No more "just good news" and announcement	Dec 28 11:10
schestowitz	Cowardice in the press ought to end.	Dec 28 11:10
schestowitz	Take OIN for example. Just for the record, I was never huge fans of OIN’s “Linux Defenders”, so it makes OIN view us as slightly hostile. What does that mean? It's hard to publish a critique.	Dec 28 11:10
trmanco	it will end when microfoot enters bankruptcy	Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz	Mainstream 'media' is bad at criticing people or companies because it doesn't pay for bills	Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz	Think about it	Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz	If you run a site that promote something, like Phoronix	Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz	Then you get free h/w to carry on doing this stuff	Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz	There's not much for media (esp. commercial) to gain from saying the ugly truth	Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz	The ugly truth about publishing selling out	Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz	The corruption among analysts, aka shillnalysts or fanalysts	Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz	I think I'll stick with BN instead of publishing elsewhere, but this doesn't pay the bills, so you're stuck right where you started	Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz	Anyway, I ain't sure where this rant is going. ;-)	Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz	trmanco: Microsoft going benakrupt won't end it.	Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz	Likewise...	Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz	The end of this depression (maybe in 2015, who knows?) won't end the corruption	Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz	A new cycle will commence	Dec 28 11:13
trmanco	hmm, some company will buy microfoot	Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz	Besides, by that time, the Chinese and Arab world will have gained a lot more power	Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz	Here's the thing	Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz	.	Dec 28 11:13
trmanco	the arabs have power	Dec 28 11:14
trmanco	Oil	Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz	You can't end a problem like cockroaches by stepping on one.	Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz	You need to find the source and fumigate it.	Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz	The educational system is defunct	Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz	The modus operati (spelling?) is bad in the 'industry' too	Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz	I posted a video about it in my blog this morning.	Dec 28 11:15
trmanco	which educational system?	Dec 28 11:17
trmanco	worldwide?	Dec 28 11:17
trmanco	or just one specific country?	Dec 28 11:18
schestowitz	It depends.	Dec 28 11:19
schestowitz	In the US, for example, they teach bible	Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz	That's a genocidal book	Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz	Also, people are taught to value just material things.	Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz	It's the recipe for self destruction, but curricula are affected by industries that fund the schools	Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz	Remember that a corpocracy like that in the US is run by companies. The government is a fascism (in the proper sense of the world) or corporate interests.	Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz	For instance.	Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz	Take the "Obama brand"	Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz	Its slogan is "Change"	Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz	They put Biden in the axis	Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz	He's pro-war and pro-MAFIAA	Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz	Then they surround him with some nice face that represent unity	Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz	It's good for 'the Brand'	Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz	But all else stays the same because the very same companies still call the shits	Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz	*shots	Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz	LOL	Dec 28 11:22
trmanco	lol	Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz	Bad typo	Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz	But the i is adjacent to the o	Dec 28 11:23
schestowitz	Bad, bad QWERTY	Dec 28 11:23
trmanco	yes, but it was a funny typo and also fits in the context, sort of	Dec 28 11:23
schestowitz	I guess my point can be summarised thusly	Dec 28 11:26
schestowitz	To promote Freedom (beyond just software), the brainwash must be tackled	Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz	A lot of effort is put into making people passive and naive	Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz	To appreciate 'freedom' as something to do with choice	Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz	Like voting or choosing PC... or a Mac	Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz	That's not freedom	Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz	That is the illusion of choice, where it's prescribed by 'responsible adults'	Dec 28 11:28
trmanco	bbl	Dec 28 11:40
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schestowitz	sigh http://blogs.opennms.org/?p=476 They should really stop saying "open source". If they said "Free software" repeatedly, then people would at least recognise the distinction and realise that Free means freedom, not cheap. Then again, people are raised in a society where cheap or free is bad.	Dec 28 12:16
schestowitz	I wonder if that's true: http://www.workswithu.com/2008/1...	Dec 28 12:19
schestowitz	Microsoft a friend of open source? LOL http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/20...	Dec 28 12:31
schestowitz	Wierd way to announce a conference.. some lone blog post: http://ncoss.cdacmumbai.in/index...	Dec 28 12:34
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mib_38sfnq	hola	Dec 28 12:48
schestowitz	Hey	Dec 28 12:50
mib_38sfnq	full on attack against OO from Meeks today - business as usual for him	Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz	What's up?	Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz	mib_38sfnq: it's an old attack	Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz	Someone in Digg boosted old news	Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz	I was going to check how the heck it made front page	Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz	The early comments smelled funny.	Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz	Almost as though some group of people decided to protest in Digg.	Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz	And then came some more waves	Dec 28 12:51
mib_38sfnq	ah - I knew I had heard him singing that song before	Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz	E.g. http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?...	Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz	Meeks response: "I'm Just a Hacker"(R)	Dec 28 12:52
schestowitz	He mailed me a few time trying to sort of shut me up a bit (politely)	Dec 28 12:52
mib_38sfnq	Ha. I saw his spreadsheet presentation the other day about OO development	Dec 28 12:52
mib_38sfnq	he had a nice little doublethink in there	Dec 28 12:53
mib_38sfnq	This from Meeks in that presentation: "The very idea of an Open project using closed developer tooling & services is rather ridiculous"	Dec 28 12:55
mib_38sfnq	I thought Moonlight/Mono was using closed MS testing suites to test against? Closed codec services? Not strong into that end of it, have to check it out closer	Dec 28 12:56
schestowitz	Heh.	Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz	Well, they promote everything Microsoft.	Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz	If now at API/format level, then at binary level too	Dec 28 13:00
mib_38sfnq	Oh, I wanted to drop this bit of hypocrisy from Sam Ramji on you:	Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz	Just watch the shims they build for virtualisation. Only SLES will have them.	Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz	Sam is a tool.	Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq	"The risk is that the term [Open Source] itself loses meaning over time, which is unfortunate as it’s a powerful idea. "	Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq	This coming from a man working for a company doing everything they can to confuse the meaning of Copen Source	Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq	of Open Source	Dec 28 13:01
schestowitz	He's like some clown that says "Mussolini loves democracy" and the world is flat	Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq	with Shared Source and Academic Source, and 1 dozen other "not-Open Sources"	Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz	Microsoft has a bunch of tools that tell lies	Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz	He's one of them	Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz	Either he doesn't work for them, or he is paid by them to pretend that Microsoft's policies are something they are not.	Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz	http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/feat...	Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz	Yes, Microsoft just LURVES open source.	Dec 28 13:02
mib_38sfnq	they just love talking that TCO mess	Dec 28 13:03
schestowitz	I last wrote about the Ramji Problem in http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/15/rob...	Dec 28 13:04
mib_38sfnq	And check it out from that link; "With open source, it was lots of little niggly things that individually may not seem like a big deal, but quickly added up to major inconveniences – like the lack of automatic updates and security patches that forced us to rely on pricey third parties to perform upgrades,"	Dec 28 13:04
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schestowitz	11 references on his name there.	Dec 28 13:04
mib_38sfnq	what damn distro does NOT have auto updates and security patches?	Dec 28 13:04
mib_38sfnq	were they running LFS or something?	Dec 28 13:05
mib_38sfnq	:)	Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz	mib_38sfnq: it's package level	Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz	Ramji is either misinformed or is lying	Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz	To update Apache, you update Apache	Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz	You don't have "Apache for DSL" and "Apache for Mint"	Dec 28 13:05
mib_38sfnq	Ramji is not misinformed - he's not an idiot. Just dishonest.	Dec 28 13:06
schestowitz	Here's the thing	Dec 28 13:06
schestowitz	Microsoft's Susa Huaser used the same FUD	Dec 28 13:06
schestowitz	They make it seem like if you're a small distributor you need to manually change code for security purposes.	Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz	That's utter BS, as I wrote at the time	Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz	Mandriva puts it in the cooker, Fedora makes RPMs, and so on.	Dec 28 13:07
mib_38sfnq	They have to do that to prop up the TCO facade	Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz	RHEL is more stable and LTSed	Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz	Marketing people: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/30/...	Dec 28 13:08
schestowitz	Susan Hauser, MS: “There is a growing recognition among customers – in many countries including China - that there are significant costs to the business by running an operating system that is not supported by a commercial vendor. These costs include the staff time to do manual patches and bug fixes versus leveraging the seamless updates that are provided by Novell for SUSE Linux Enterprise as part of a support contract.”	Dec 28 13:08
schestowitz	Me: "Translation: China respects intellectual monopolies and ownership of mathematics. Additionally, no GNU/Linux distribution other than Novell ever receives patches. Users have to write their own. They have to keep track of Bugzilla and watchever and figure out how to fix every individual flaw. It’s really, really hard."	Dec 28 13:09
mib_38sfnq	Again with the "manual patches"! What the hell company runs that flavor of Linux?	Dec 28 13:10
mib_38sfnq	Some company out there on Slackware or something? Come on.	Dec 28 13:10
schestowitz	Some are, but they don't have to be.	Dec 28 13:12
schestowitz	She's FUDing some established Chinese vendors	Dec 28 13:12
schestowitz	So that they pay Microsoft that "Linux tax" via Novell	Dec 28 13:12
mib_38sfnq	Ramji has another sneaky little attack too - he likes to draw an equivalence between Open Source and things like "Extreme Programming" and other development processes	Dec 28 13:13
mib_38sfnq	this lets him focus on the development side of Open Source and ignore the e idea s of sharring and freedom	Dec 28 13:13
mib_38sfnq	You can point out how absurd that analogy is by comparing, say, the idea of	Dec 28 13:14
mib_38sfnq	"Free Software" with "How you should indent C code"	Dec 28 13:14
*schestowitz was help back by MS boosters		Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz	*held	Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz	Ramji is a straw man	Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz	I wrote about it before	Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz	Microsoft just need some skinny and innocent-looking man to stand there as a proxy	Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz	You can't attack Microsoft's attitude towards Linux because you first have to go through this straw man.	Dec 28 13:19
mib_38sfnq	Yeah, but he has some sneaky arguments. That's how MS does - they don't change the message, they just make it a bit more subtle	Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz	IOW, it's like those woman reps that companies send out to the mob	Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz	The mob can't attack women	Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz	So in this case, they use him as a fence	Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz	The white-collar criminals like Bach, Allchin, Ballmer and soon use him as a shield, as PR.	Dec 28 13:20
mib_38sfnq	Yeah, that's closer to it - he's a "TE" like that other dude we were talking about	Dec 28 13:20
schestowitz	My last remark was a refrence to some develop who's boosting Microsoft stuff by pushing it onto Debian and Ubuntu.	Dec 28 13:20
schestowitz	Yes	Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz	I wonder who else is an undercover TE	Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz	They sometimes get exposed	Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz	Someone mailed me yesterday to say that his girlfriend tracked down and busted two Microsoft TEs in a certain European nation	Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz	They pollute technology sites	Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz	Another former editor of a very large tech sites said that TEs were gaming his site	Dec 28 13:22
mib_38sfnq	Yes, but again - MS is good at getting subtle. They come on strong, get called out and laughed at for the blanatant lies, and then get more sneaky	Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz	So I can't help thinking of some other sites rthat suffer from this too	Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz	In facr, Groklaw used to get them too	Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz	All kinds of COmpTIA (Microsoft pressure group) shills pretending to be FOSS people.	Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz	But...	Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz	be careful	Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz	Expose them...	Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz	And be called all sorts of name	Dec 28 13:23
schestowitz	*names	Dec 28 13:23
mib_38sfnq	yup no doubt there. always falling back to the personal attacks.	Dec 28 13:23
schestowitz	The TEs use the same tactics of mistrust to attack those who expose them	Dec 28 13:23
schestowitz	PJ for example: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/2...	Dec 28 13:24
schestowitz	Groklaw advised me when BN was young to block comments, but I never did this and don't intend to	Dec 28 13:24
schestowitz	For a person who is involved in a FOSS project... I don't know... Microsoft has some of its own people enter these projects to promote Microsoft agenda.	Dec 28 13:25
schestowitz	Companies too, not just projects	Dec 28 13:25
schestowitz	Good projects like Xen were ruined after a Microsoft proxy (Ignition) funded them and seemingly injected a Microsoft General Manager into the board.	Dec 28 13:25
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09...	Dec 28 13:26
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mib_38sfnq	I might work up a post about Ramji - he's really bugging me on that post and the spreadsheet Mary Jo had up	Dec 28 13:32
mib_38sfnq	er, not spreadsheet ... slide	Dec 28 13:33
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schestowitz	Slide?	Dec 28 13:35
schestowitz	Which one?	Dec 28 13:35
schestowitz	The ISV thing?	Dec 28 13:35
schestowitz	(from 2007)	Dec 28 13:35
mib_38sfnq	http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1142	Dec 28 13:35
mib_38sfnq	Same one?	Dec 28 13:36
schestowitz	"Bill Hilf has already run away from this position and so did Martin Taylor. You can’t buy forgiveness and remorse by just swapping heads forever. They all inherit the same burden and guilt." http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0...	Dec 28 13:37
schestowitz	I'm trying to find something about Microsoft pretending that Martin taylor never existed	Dec 28 13:37
schestowitz	Yes, that one.	Dec 28 13:37
mib_38sfnq	I love how he's got vim up there in the corner.	Dec 28 13:38
schestowitz	What's his bg anyway	Dec 28 13:40
mib_38sfnq	Ramji?	Dec 28 13:40
schestowitz	"Before joining Microsoft in November 2004, I worked at BEA Systems in the WebLogic Integration product unit as Director of Market Development, focused on technical market strategy under Chet Kapoor and Dave Hinman."	Dec 28 13:41
schestowitz	Yuck. BEA	Dec 28 13:41
schestowitz	Proprietary	Dec 28 13:41
schestowitz	So he had NO BACKGROUND IN FOSS as far as I can tell.	Dec 28 13:42
mib_38sfnq	no no he has a bit ... his old blog is still on line	Dec 28 13:43
mib_38sfnq	http://samus.typepad.com	Dec 28 13:43
mib_38sfnq	never a Free Software guy	Dec 28 13:43
mib_38sfnq	as far as I can tell	Dec 28 13:43
schestowitz	What bit has he?	Dec 28 13:43
schestowitz	Did he contribute code?	Dec 28 13:43
schestowitz	Or is he "I'm using Firefox"-type 'FOSS' person?	Dec 28 13:44
mib_38sfnq	yeah more of the latter as far as I can tell ... he came from a software-service background	Dec 28 13:44
schestowitz	That's not FOSS	Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz	http://samus.typepad.com/what/...	Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz	SaaS, SaaS........	Dec 28 13:45
mib_38sfnq	right, never Free and more about OSS as a development model, with no thought to the philosophy that actually makes it work	Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz	Of coruse not	Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz	Philosophy scares Microsoft	Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz	It's all for money, ethics don't matter	Dec 28 13:46
schestowitz	Sometimes the law does not matter, either	Dec 28 13:46
schestowitz	BillG has friends in high places, so he pays or bribes or buys his way out (there are actual examples of this)	Dec 28 13:46
mib_38sfnq	exactly so ... you can see it big time if you ever look at Port 25... cold and clinical	Dec 28 13:47
mib_38sfnq	no discussion of ethics, morality or real community	Dec 28 13:47
schestowitz	On another note, this is new < http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/27/mic... > and it's pretty massive: Microsoft's massive AstroTurfing is exposed by a former chief. I wonder how many Ramjis work 'undercover' among us.	Dec 28 13:54
schestowitz	It's not just Port25 BTW	Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz	They also spread messages through former employees	Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz	About profit-making, other licences, etc	Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz	We caught incidents	Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz	The idea is to change open source	Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz	Ramji is fine with it, Microsoft is bullish on it	Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz	EEE	Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz	The issue is that if you return to Free software, then they'll pollute it with the 'price' misconception	Dec 28 13:56
schestowitz	Didiot was doing this last year in a publication	Dec 28 13:56
schestowitz	Open source = visible source/development method in Microsoft's books	Dec 28 13:56
schestowitz	Free software = cheap, no money, communism, radicalism	Dec 28 13:56
mib_38sfnq	yeah, but make sure your Open Source code relies heavily on Microsoft's Closed Source libraries and infrastructure	Dec 28 13:57
schestowitz	Heh.	Dec 28 14:01
schestowitz	Well, this way Microsoft gets its share	Dec 28 14:01
schestowitz	[of your income]	Dec 28 14:01
mib_38sfnq	Microsoft ISVs are basically sharecroppers and don't even realize it	Dec 28 14:02
schestowitz	Yes.	Dec 28 14:05
schestowitz	But they get short-term kicks	Dec 28 14:05
schestowitz	Microsoft: "he's some money. Ensure we do some revenue-sharing in the future"	Dec 28 14:05
schestowitz	It's a sensitive subject. It's tiring to say that project /X/ sold out. it's not fruitful, either	Dec 28 14:06
schestowitz	Microsoft is used to crushing ot buying stuff	Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz	What if it bought Google in 1999?	Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz	What if it paid GNU to disappear?	Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz	It's a hack whose ammunition is only goodwill and ethics	Dec 28 14:07
mib_38sfnq	If MS bought Google, then Google would never have been the main search servevice	Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz	If ethics can be broken ("Hey! Why don't you support SQL Server? Come on, we'll pay you for it"), then it's bad	Dec 28 14:08
mib_38sfnq	We'd be "Yahooing" or "(Alta)Vista-ing" instead of "googling"	Dec 28 14:08
schestowitz	it's possible that search would not be as mainstream, as well	Dec 28 14:08
schestowitz	Portals were more popular when search was ru\bbish	Dec 28 14:09
mib_38sfnq	Maybe the "directory" approach would be more popular?	Dec 28 14:09
schestowitz	I used A9 until 2003, IIRC	Dec 28 14:09
mib_38sfnq	A9 was not too bad	Dec 28 14:09
schestowitz	This Apebox box is wasting my time today: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/...	Dec 28 14:11
schestowitz	A friend of mine reckons he's a turncoat Shafter	Dec 28 14:11
schestowitz	All he ever does is heckle, heckle, heckle	Dec 28 14:12
schestowitz	Been reading and posting in BN all afetrnoon	Dec 28 14:12
schestowitz	You'd think he'd just blog his own perspective, but no.. he must go to another site and put his confrontations over there.	Dec 28 14:12
mib_38sfnq	i've been to his site ... he comes on BN to argue because no one reads his site	Dec 28 14:14
mib_38sfnq	he's really disingenuous in those comments, calling out OO as Sun's cathedral project	Dec 28 14:17
mib_38sfnq	that's just a straight lie	Dec 28 14:17
schestowitz	They attack Sun these days	Dec 28 14:19
schestowitz	It was noted by readers.	Dec 28 14:19
schestowitz	The "equally evil' (without substantial evidence) defense.	Dec 28 14:19
schestowitz	Watch them keeping quiet when Microsoft crimes are discussed.	Dec 28 14:20
mib_38sfnq	yup Ad Hominem Tu Quoque is a favorite of Novell defenders on BN i have noticed	Dec 28 14:20
schestowitz	BTW, are you anonymous by choice?	Dec 28 14:23
mib_38sfnq	half way	Dec 28 14:24
mib_38sfnq	just tired of personal attacks everytime I post about Novell and stuff	Dec 28 14:24
mib_38sfnq	so keeping it here for now	Dec 28 14:25
mib_38sfnq	that's all	Dec 28 14:25
schestowitz	I see..	Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz	That's why the hecklers do a lot of har,	Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz	*harm	Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz	Many readers never comment in BN	Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz	Some who do are being attacked	Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz	It's a bit like COLA in USENET, as trmanco surely knows	Dec 28 14:27
schestowitz	They make it an unpleasant forum to deter potential participants.	Dec 28 14:27
schestowitz	Groklaw protests them better by driving away the bad crowd, but I suppose it's prepared to be characterised as censoring, which it is, assuming that annulling shills is acceptable.	Dec 28 14:28
mib_38sfnq	It's hard to balance open discussion because trolls and shills sure do take advantage of it	Dec 28 14:28
mib_38sfnq	blog comments are an especially difficult format to balance on top of that as well	Dec 28 14:29
schestowitz	That's why I don't intervene	Dec 28 14:31
schestowitz	Sometimes it gets really bad so people complain.	Dec 28 14:31
mib_38sfnq	i think you are doing about the best possible - imagine the cries if you deleted comments	Dec 28 14:32
mib_38sfnq	people would be screaming "censorship" big time	Dec 28 14:32
mib_38sfnq	better just to let it out there for all to see	Dec 28 14:32
mib_38sfnq	that's what i think	Dec 28 14:32
schestowitz	And not to aggravate	Dec 28 14:32
schestowitz	Or let there be typos and mistakes	Dec 28 14:32
schestowitz	Groklaw's the same, but it slowed down because of it	Dec 28 14:33
schestowitz	Risk of lawsuit for incorrect assertions and all.	Dec 28 14:33
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*trmanco is catching up		Dec 28 15:03
schestowitz	14:27: <schestowitz> It's a bit like COLA in USENET, as trmanco surely knows	Dec 28 15:04
*trmanco has caught up		Dec 28 15:11
schestowitz	Jo told me "fuck you" after I asked him to be polite and not in sult me: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/27/suse-a...	Dec 28 15:12
trmanco	oh yeah, like identity theft and so on like today	Dec 28 15:12
schestowitz	It's not the first time that he curses by the way.	Dec 28 15:12
schestowitz	Some much for Oxford University scientists. They left the manners in the dorm.	Dec 28 15:13
trmanco	"fuck you" translated in English >> "Hey I don't have anymore valid arguments on this so leave me alone"	Dec 28 15:13
trmanco	"I lost, you win"	Dec 28 15:13
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12...	Dec 28 15:19
trmanco	LOL	Dec 28 15:21
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving")		Dec 28 15:23
trmanco	http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u... << LOL, m0n0 is not really well positioned	Dec 28 15:24
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schestowitz	trmanco: oops :-)	Dec 28 15:25
trmanco	;-)	Dec 28 15:26
schestowitz	GNOME is close, but I like GNOME	Dec 28 15:26
schestowitz	And you know what they say...	Dec 28 15:26
schestowitz	Microsoft wants to take on the GNU from behind	Dec 28 15:27
*macabe_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Dec 28 15:29
trmanco	lol	Dec 28 15:30
trmanco	oh yeah	Dec 28 15:31
mib_38sfnq	mono should be dropping out the back end	Dec 28 15:31
mib_38sfnq	and a little pile of moonlight on the ground	Dec 28 15:31
schestowitz	When it's fed more market share -- yes	Dec 28 15:31
trmanco	og great	Dec 28 16:09
trmanco	http://www.e-u.pt/media/noticia_text...	Dec 28 16:09
trmanco	link is broken, got it from here >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Maj...	Dec 28 16:09
schestowitz	Windows server	Dec 28 16:16
schestowitz	Maybe they abandoned it :-)	Dec 28 16:16
trmanco	no, they moved from asp to aspx	Dec 28 16:17
trmanco	http://www.e-u.pt/PresentationLayer/eU_no...	Dec 28 16:17
trmanco	http://www.e-u.pt/PresentationLayer/eU_n...	Dec 28 16:18
trmanco	this is old...	Dec 28 16:18
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trmanco	yet another buffy overflow -> http://www.securiteam.com/...	Dec 28 16:57
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schestowitz	Buffy.	Dec 28 17:05
schestowitz	http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118276/	Dec 28 17:05
trmanco	no not that Buffy :-P	Dec 28 17:08
schestowitz	Slay Windows. :-)	Dec 28 17:14
trmanco	and yet another one ->http://www.securitytracker.com/alert...	Dec 28 17:15
trmanco	this time with WMP	Dec 28 17:15
trmanco	Exploit included :-P	Dec 28 17:15
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neighborlee	schestowitz, ok thats weird...did you and shane have some fallling out or something o_0...his comments are really bizarre considering he was a editor ?...anyway, Jo wasn't doing anyone anygood really...facts are fine, but when debate is not only one side but also vile, its time to call them on it which we all did basicaly in unison, and he just couldn't take it apparantly anymore ;)< and he went out in the same style, as he mostly	Dec 28 17:45
neighborlee	had been known for while his brief stay>	Dec 28 17:45
*macabe (n=macabe@cpe-67-240-216-105.rochester.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 28 17:58
neighborlee	oh and btw..very OT, but very kewl and worth seeing if you haven't already: http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...	Dec 28 18:00
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trmanco	nice vid	Dec 28 18:04
neighborlee	:)	Dec 28 18:08
neighborlee	nature is just amazing ;)	Dec 28 18:08
trmanco	it sure is	Dec 28 18:11
trmanco	OpenOffice.org 3.0 Passes 25 Million Downloads: http://www.solidoffice.com/archives/943	Dec 28 19:23
*schestowitz just got back		Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz	http://www.ispreview.co.uk/new... (BBC Proposes Higher ISP Pricing for use of its iPlayer Service)	Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz	Goodbye, net neutrality	Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz	Thanks, MS-BBC	Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz	Patent Troll Sues Google, Apple & Microsoft < http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2008/12/26/pate... >	Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz	neighborlee: Shane's comment is not a surprise. No worries, though.	Dec 28 20:11
trmanco	why the trolls have gone mad -> http://www.financialexpress.com/news/microso...	Dec 28 20:12
trmanco	oops, that doesn't sound very good	Dec 28 20:12
trmanco	Novell Calls Off BrainShare 2009: http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/No...	Dec 28 20:13
schestowitz	ECT is dying too, I thinki	Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz	Yes...	Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz	Now I see... they still just buy articles.	Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz	They don't produce much.	Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz	They have that silly Blog Safari thing.	Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz	This article from Tom Harvey is old	Dec 28 20:15
schestowitz	About a week old.	Dec 28 20:15
trmanco	a week?	Dec 28 20:15
schestowitz	I think	Dec 28 20:17
schestowitz	I was drunk that night	Dec 28 20:17
schestowitz	Anyway, I've just posted to COLA.	Dec 28 20:17
schestowitz	I didn't change the headline	Dec 28 20:18
*trmanco checks cOLA		Dec 28 20:18
schestowitz	Let's see how the Munchins respond.	Dec 28 20:18
schestowitz	It might not appear immediately.	Dec 28 20:18
schestowitz	brb, shower (just been back from the gym)	Dec 28 20:18
trmanco	ok	Dec 28 20:18
trmanco	btw, doesn't appear yet	Dec 28 20:19
schestowitz	This is quite acpocalyptic... just to think they wanted to buy Yahoo for 50 bil some months ago	Dec 28 20:31
trmanco	LOL	Dec 28 20:31
schestowitz	Debt nation is what it is and MS was prepared to go into big debt at dangerous times	Dec 28 20:32
trmanco	just found a msn bot on my site with a search query from live.com using Firefox	Dec 28 20:32
schestowitz	That would have wiped them, sorta	Dec 28 20:32
schestowitz	trmanco: you can find MS employees seraching for FOSS stuff	Dec 28 20:32
schestowitz	I once did that... they also use Google... that was in 2005 when I checked it though, for fun in some Web newsgroup	Dec 28 20:33
trmanco	using this ip? -> http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryin...	Dec 28 20:33
trmanco	and they are coming from live, but when I click the referral link I don't appear on that page	Dec 28 20:34
schestowitz	Happy new year! (Microsoft's won't be happy... watch my next post)	Dec 28 21:06
trmanco	LOL	Dec 28 21:09
schestowitz	Some reader wrote to me with greetings.	Dec 28 21:09
schestowitz	We have our tough crowd, but quiet behind the scenes we have some big supporters, including some CEOs and journalists I won't name. :-)	Dec 28 21:09
schestowitz	Some people are shy to say they read it.	Dec 28 21:12
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1...	Dec 28 21:16
trmanco	great	Dec 28 21:17
trmanco	I think I have just convinced a friend of mine to ditch Windows in favor of Ubuntu	Dec 28 21:18
schestowitz	How?	Dec 28 21:18
schestowitz	<recommend duality	Dec 28 21:18
schestowitz	Windows will drop in due time	Dec 28 21:19
trmanco	just told him that you have less problems in Linux	Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz	Build a partition for him	Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz	GRUB	Dec 28 21:19
trmanco	he has already installed it	Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz	Good	Dec 28 21:19
trmanco	and wiped out windows from his hard drive	Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz	Some UK universities dual boot as standard now.	Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz	MS counts it as Win boxes	Dec 28 21:20
trmanco	well that is betetr thans just having Windows on it	Dec 28 21:20
trmanco	stupid counting schemes	Dec 28 21:20
schestowitz	Which distro?	Dec 28 21:20
trmanco	?	Dec 28 21:21
trmanco	Ubuntu	Dec 28 21:21
trmanco	for now	Dec 28 21:21
schestowitz	WOT??? No Arch?	Dec 28 21:21
trmanco	Arch oooowe	Dec 28 21:21
trmanco	for a newbie, its a little hard core	Dec 28 21:21
schestowitz	Make his sweat for freedom. :-p	Dec 28 21:21
trmanco	I've instlled it a couple of times on a VM	Dec 28 21:21
schestowitz	*him	Dec 28 21:22
trmanco	:-P	Dec 28 21:22
trmanco	he is still using OSS driveres	Dec 28 21:22
trmanco	drivers*	Dec 28 21:22
trmanco	teaching him the basics	Dec 28 21:24
schestowitz	Monopoly meetups: http://www.ipr-helpdesk.org/events/events_3145... http://www.ipr-helpdesk.org/events/... http://www.epo.org/about-us/events/epf200...	Dec 28 21:26
schestowitz	=people in suits and various lawyers discussing how to make money out of engineers who actually create something.	Dec 28 21:27
schestowitz	trmanco: when you teach him, you teach others	Dec 28 21:27
trmanco	yes	Dec 28 21:27
trmanco	I have also found out a way for my cousin to ditch windows too	Dec 28 21:28
schestowitz	If he gets immersed in it, he'll want to pass it on. It's the network effect. For 4 people you turn to Linux you can impact 16	Dec 28 21:28
trmanco	but this one was more "painful"	Dec 28 21:28
schestowitz	They need to /want/ to change	Dec 28 21:28
schestowitz	Either a major crash/virus or a good demo of Compiz/Fusion on multi-hea	Dec 28 21:29
trmanco	yes, thanks to microfoot (R)	Dec 28 21:29
trmanco	slowness	Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz	http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2008/12/26/p... http://digg.com/software/Microsoft_Apple...	Dec 28 21:29
trmanco	and bloat made my cousin change	Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz	I'm pretty sure that Ars Technica is gaming Digg	Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz	For a long time it has seemed like it	Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz	Digg sometimes sorta 'punishes' them, which indicates group (gang) voting	Dec 28 21:30
trmanco	oh yeah	Dec 28 21:30
trmanco	FUDmeisters	Dec 28 21:30
schestowitz	Not quite. Just people who game Digg. I hate that.	Dec 28 21:34
schestowitz	They ruined Digg in my opinion	Dec 28 21:34
PetoKraus	i'm just reading the article on /. about OOo	Dec 28 21:43
PetoKraus	well...	Dec 28 21:43
schestowitz	It's old	Dec 28 21:43
schestowitz	Digg bumped it somehow	Dec 28 21:43
PetoKraus	it's true that they are one of the slowest FLOSS projects to respond to bugs i've tried to	Dec 28 21:43
schestowitz	Trolls everywhere reuse it.	Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz	Let me copy some remarks on it	Dec 28 21:44
PetoKraus	well but the bottom line is true	Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz	I had some E-mails with friends about it (there are not from OOo or anything.	Dec 28 21:44
PetoKraus	that Sun is trying to control the code	Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz	A friend of mine said:	Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz	I have not been following the OOo situation all that closely, so the following questions come from a position of ignorance:	Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz	1. Isn't Meeks really just saying that more diversity is needed in controlling contributions to the OOo code base?	Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz	2. If so, isn't he correct in that position? Even Luis Suarez Potts has said to me that he would like to see more diversity to the contributors to the OOo code base.	Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz	3. Sun has indeed made mistakes with regard to FOSS, criticizing Linux, for example. Overall, I support Sun because their contributions to FOSS outweigh their mistakes, but I think that they are more controlling than they should be. It seems to me that is what Mike Meeks is saying.	Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz	Here is my response (with ">") and his:	Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz	On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Roy Schestowitz <r@schestowitz.com> wrote:	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	>A better name for Go-OO would be MS-Go-OO-XML. Novell was a promoter of	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	>OOXML and Microsoft used this to ram it down ISO's throat.	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	I agree that Novell and Miguel made a mistake in saying good things about OOXML. The bane of our (the FOSS community) existence is our need for money to run servers and pay developers to write unglorious stuff like drivers, because it allows Microsoft to find a base to form partnerships like the Novell-Microsoft partnership, which I wish had never happened.	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	On the other hand, my conservative Republican father thinks that the Novell deal is proof of Microsoft's weakness and Linux's strength. He says that Linux must be making progress if Microsoft is forced to make deals like that. And my father voted for McCain.	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	I think that Roy's service to the community is like that of Pamela Jones and Richard Stallman. Roy continues to light a fire under Novell's feet to keep its mistakes before the public, so that Novell managers continue to question whether or not their efforts are really the best thing for Novell's public image and for the FOSS community.	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	But it is also true that the FOSS community needs money, or we will just dry up and blow away. Many of us in the FOSS community are struggling every day to pay the rent, and we need to do two things at the same time: 1) continue to push truly Free Software; and 2) make money doing it, at least so long as capitalism exists. Our problem of poverty reflects a much broader problem -- rapacious capitalism. Free Software is motivated	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	by values that exist beyond the capitalist model of controlling markets. So in a sense, we in the FOSS world are time travelers from the future trying to exist in a world where rapacious capitalism is still prevalent, but FOSS is from a world where quality is pre-eminent, not rapacious capitalist desires to control commerce.	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz		Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	>I suppose you don't think about the patents associated with it and the	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	>Mono (.NET). It	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	In re Bilski I think will weaken software patents. Mono is clearly a mistake, although it has the beneficial effect of commoditizing .Net. Good wine comes from poor-tasting grapes. For example, you could also say that OOo and Audacity and all of those cross-platform FOSS apps are selling out Linux by allowing people to use those apps on Microsoft Windows.	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	I see .Net as a way of distracting Microsoft. I see software patents as a freak of the law that has been weakened by Bilski, and I think that is a trend that will continue. I believe that much of Microsoft's patent hoard will come to be seen as having zero value. Patents are a huge problem for the short term, but in the long term I think we will beat them, because software patents are in disfavor, thanks to efforts of people lik	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	e Roy and governments like Brazil which do not recognize software patents.	Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz	>There is also a good chance that Microsoft will buy Novell some time in	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	>the future, along with its copyrighted assets that include many	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	>GNU/Linux programs. They would also buy out the WordPerfect lawsuit that	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	>way (about a third of Novell's market cap).	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	I could see Microsoft buying Novell in an act of desparation, and I think that the stock market would react to such a purchase as a sign of desparation. I think that the day that Microsoft buys Novell, it will also have to spend a huge chunk of change to buy more shares to prevent Microsoft's stock from dropping more than 5%. Novell has a hugely different business model than Microsoft.	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	Novell makes money from supporting its software. The margins in that business are tiny compared with the Microsoft licensing model, which in the past ranged greater than 80%! Microsoft as we know it today is founded on those kinds of margins, and if you take away those margins, you dramatically change the nature of Microsoft.	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	BTW, have you been following the Google market cap chase of Microsoft? With the declining global market, both Google and Microsoft have dropped in value, but Microsoft has dropped proportionately much greater. I remember the day that Google crossed the threshold of $100 billion market cap difference from Microsoft.	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	And since that time, Google has mostly narrowed that gap even further. The greatest objective measure of the real world digital tipping point is this gap between Microsoft and Google, because that gap signals the decline of the Microsoft Windows hegemony on the desktop.	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	Today, the market cap spread between Google and Microsoft is only about $56 billion!	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	When Microsoft loses its status as a bank, it will lose its ability to dictate the terms of the desktop market. At that point, Microsoft will have to actually compete, and we all know that when Microsoft must compete, it loses, as in the case of the X-box and the Zune and so many other instances of Microsoft failure where it must compete.	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz		Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	>Based on Sun's word, Go-OO is a fork. Novell's friends would try to deny	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	>this.	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	Neo-Office is also a fork, but it is a friendly fork. And maybe it is a good thing for Sun to be forced to allow more outside control of OOo? I don't know. But it really has stuck with me that even Luis Suarez Potts has said that there should be greater diversity in controlling the OOo code base.	Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz	The downside of greater diversity in the code base means that governing OOo becomes more cumbersome. But the advantage of greater diversity is that Sun would need to become more responsive to the user community and the developer community, which IMHO is a good thing.	Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz	It is a shame that corporate capitalism pits Sun and Novell and IBM against each other, with each corporation trying to grab all the marbles and not share, as is expected of FOSS projects. But there is a certain material force to FOSS that forces the corporate hand.	Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz	As long as we continue to enhance the GNU-Linux market share, we will be able to weaken the corporate influence on Free Standards and Free Software.	Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz	...	Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz	But he's very wrong.	Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz	Linux and FOSS are less than 20% of Novell's business.	Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz	About MS'margins: That's no longer true. The margins fell super sharply.	Dec 28 21:49
schestowitz	Microsoft suffers a lot because of the Web, not Free software.	Dec 28 21:49
schestowitz	Or at least that's why Windows doesn't matter much anymore	Dec 28 21:49
schestowitz	About wealth in h/w: They lose billions and will soon be in debt, after the layoffs.	Dec 28 21:50
schestowitz	The whole thing is old news. More conversation on this: http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl...	Dec 28 21:50
schestowitz	And another friend contradicts this also:	Dec 28 21:50
PetoKraus	well anyway	Dec 28 21:50
PetoKraus	i don't really see why are you slamming go-oo	Dec 28 21:50
PetoKraus	just because it's novell?	Dec 28 21:50
schestowitz	"i usually agree with you, mostly -:) In this case, im totally opposite. Meeks with his follies at Novell are implementing a MS divide and conquer tactic here. Its not like Meeks is saying, the community needs to help OOo but instead pushes folks to help with the go-oo version, the Novel version. There is a lot more to OOo than developers, the Doc Project is big, Art project, launguge project is huge..."	Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz	"So the Meeks gang takes advantage of all the work others contribute to OOO and use it to promote the MS/Novell agenda...."	Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz		Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz	"I also dont beleive Louis is happy about any of this "Forking" or for that matter anyone directly involved in the OOo community. There is no diversity with what Meeks has done, they have essentially created their own product, dont contribute to OOo and go out and complete by saying negative things about the OOo version."	Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz	PetoKraus: yes, it's Novell's and it could continue to serve Microsoft via Novell	Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz	I got this mail 10 minutes ago:	Dec 28 21:52
schestowitz	"Meeks isn't even an OOo developer. He's be working on a hostile fork. The fork has been used to inject MS technology and to attack Sun."	Dec 28 21:52
schestowitz	"It's time to point out publicly again that Meeks is not an OOo developer."	Dec 28 21:52
schestowitz	5 minutes ago: "There's no date on Meek's blog, but this looks like the same one from earlier this year. In other words it looks like an old attack dragged out and used again. I'd look around and try to see what MS/Novell are using this as a smoke screen to cover."	Dec 28 21:53
schestowitz	Hm... this might make front page: http://digg.com/linux_unix/...	Dec 28 21:54
PetoKraus	I've actually got nothing against either OOo or Go-oo	Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz	I thought something with more beef would be appreciated: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Grou...	Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz	Digg is weird	Dec 28 21:55
PetoKraus	since the bug I experience is in both	Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz	Fanboy stuff is Dugg, important news is not.	Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz	The Novellers seem to be pushing it into Slashdot again (dupe): http://developers.slashdot.org/develo...	Dec 28 22:03
PetoKraus	that's the one i'm talking about	Dec 28 22:04
PetoKraus	i emailed FSF about the personal USB gnewsense bootcards	Dec 28 22:06
PetoKraus	it seems that i've missed the first wave... :/	Dec 28 22:06
schestowitz	We need to respons to this old news	Dec 28 22:06
schestowitz	Oh, not the USB.. the OOo thing	Dec 28 22:06
schestowitz	Which number will you be?	Dec 28 22:07
schestowitz	RMS is 0	Dec 28 22:07
PetoKraus	i'm 6128	Dec 28 22:07
schestowitz	6127? :-)	Dec 28 22:07
trmanco	I'm N/A still	Dec 28 22:07
trmanco	:\|	Dec 28 22:07
schestowitz	Member 0x00001FF3	Dec 28 22:07
trmanco	I don't know HEX	Dec 28 22:08
trmanco	http://developers.slashdot.org/comme...	Dec 28 22:18
*GoblinRFD (n=tim@78-86-75-104.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 28 22:25
GoblinRFD	hello all. Merry xmas	Dec 28 22:26
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving")		Dec 28 22:27
schestowitz	Hey, GoblinRFD	Dec 28 22:28
GoblinRFD	:)	Dec 28 22:28
GoblinRFD	great post on MS shillers!	Dec 28 22:29
GoblinRFD	infact this holiday period, great posts all round!	Dec 28 22:29
GoblinRFD	Roy, what was that comment from Jo Shields all about?	Dec 28 22:30
trmanco	schestowitz, they are faking you again	Dec 28 22:31
trmanco	and it smells like fish	Dec 28 22:31
schestowitz	GoblinRFD: which posts?	Dec 28 22:33
schestowitz	trmanco: it's probably Gary Steward with multiple accounts. let's check..	Dec 28 22:33
GoblinRFD	the comment that said "F*ck you"	Dec 28 22:34
trmanco	it look like him, he used on of his nyms in his sig	Dec 28 22:34
*PetoKraus (n=pk@host-77-247-224-25.isper.sk) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 28 22:34
trmanco	and it is crossposted	Dec 28 22:35
trmanco	X-Complaints-To: abuse@tornevall.net	Dec 28 22:35
trmanco	X-Complaints-Language: Spoken language is english or swedish - NOT ITALIAN, FRENCH, GERMAN OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE!	Dec 28 22:35
trmanco	X-Validate-Post: http://news.tornevall.net/validate.php?tr...	Dec 28 22:35
trmanco	X-SpeedUI: 1456	Dec 28 22:35
trmanco	X-Complaints-Italiano: Parlo la lingua non è italiano	Dec 28 22:35
schestowitz	I don't want to spend time on Gary and the other Microsoft fraudsters.	Dec 28 22:36
schestowitz	He's like a TE (shill) and he'll get sued one day	Dec 28 22:36
schestowitz	He harmed many people... targeted attacks	Dec 28 22:36
GoblinRFD	Do you mean Gary Hobbs?	Dec 28 22:37
schestowitz	Rebuttal: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/...	Dec 28 22:41
schestowitz	Hobbs??	Dec 28 22:41
schestowitz	No, Gary M Stewart, Microsoft shill.	Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD	ah	Dec 28 22:41
schestowitz	Nasty criminal. Some people want him in prison.	Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD	I was targetted by a guy called Gary Hobbs on MSwatch today.	Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD	stooped to some very low levels.	Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD	including pretending to be a regular Linux user called "The Hand"	Dec 28 22:42
MinceR	hm, who's going to do a fork of ooo that isn't built on any vm-based language? :>	Dec 28 22:42
MinceR	we have java ooo, .net ooo, time to have a native ooo :>	Dec 28 22:43
GoblinRFD	I am still screwing over Python 3.0.....and I cant even say its MS's fault its gone to pot.	Dec 28 22:43
tessier	What's wrong with Python 3.0?	Dec 28 22:43
GoblinRFD	changes in syntax mainly	Dec 28 22:44
tessier	Amateurs worry about syntax. Professionals worry about semantics.	Dec 28 22:44
GoblinRFD	lol	Dec 28 22:44
GoblinRFD	we have mostly amateurs working for us then	Dec 28 22:44
tessier	Seriously. Syntax only affects what keys you press on the keyboard.	Dec 28 22:44
MinceR	what's wrong with those changes?	Dec 28 22:45
MinceR	tessier: no, it also affects what you read back later	Dec 28 22:45
GoblinRFD	nothing per say. I can see the direction in which they are taking Python........	Dec 28 22:45
MinceR	and it also affects what you're allowed to use in your program at all	Dec 28 22:45
tessier	MinceR: The former only to a certain degree, the latter not at all.	Dec 28 22:45
GoblinRFD	its simply for me, it appears to be change for change sake. That and the performance of the interpretter.	Dec 28 22:45
MinceR	it would have been preferable to put some sort of version indicator in .py files	Dec 28 22:45
tessier	Lisp has very little in the way of syntax. And it can do more than most languages. It could do imperative, OO, functional, etc. before anyone else.	Dec 28 22:46
GoblinRFD	but why the change?	Dec 28 22:46
MinceR	and a series of incompatible changes could be a good place to do that	Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz	GoblinRFD: Google has control over Python, I sense	Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz	They use lots of it in-house and has the founder	Dec 28 22:46
MinceR	tessier: too bad it can't do so in a readable way.	Dec 28 22:46
GoblinRFD	Roy, Id tend to agree.	Dec 28 22:46
tessier	schestowitz: Oh geez.	Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz	Then there's Sun	Dec 28 22:46
tessier	Have you been reading the Python mailing lists?	Dec 28 22:46
MinceR	tessier: also, it is possible to limit a language using the syntax	Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz	Sun employer two of its seniors for JPython	Dec 28 22:47
tessier	And who has been proposing the PLIPs?	Dec 28 22:47
*kentma (n=user@GLPHON22-1168101524.sdsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 28 22:47
schestowitz	GoblinRFD: it was the same with PHP4-5	Dec 28 22:47
schestowitz	And Perl maybe.	Dec 28 22:47
schestowitz	Yes, I think Perl too... new release just came	Dec 28 22:47
kentma	schestowitz: probs at ellandroad...	Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz	Comprimises hurt at first, then pay off.	Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz	kentma: thanks, I noticed	Dec 28 22:48
kentma	Will take abt 1 week to resolve	Dec 28 22:48
kentma	schestowitz: sorry.	Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz	trmanco says that Gary posts more libel about me to lots of NGs	Dec 28 22:48
MinceR	an example of syntax limiting the language is here, under SIMPLE: http://www.physics.uwo.ca/~harwo...	Dec 28 22:48
GoblinRFD	it will be interesting to see what the uni's will do. Continue a course teaching an older version or switch mid term to 3.0.	Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz	1 week?! :-o	Dec 28 22:48
kentma	Bad news, I know	Dec 28 22:49
schestowitz	H/w issue?	Dec 28 22:49
kentma	Yes	Dec 28 22:49
kentma	Physical presence rqd	Dec 28 22:49
schestowitz	Let's see....	Dec 28 22:49
schestowitz	The issue is that it's hard to pull references without the good archive	Dec 28 22:50
kentma	But it will be up in 7 days	Dec 28 22:50
schestowitz	No hurry	Dec 28 22:50
kentma	Sorry, nothing I can do bbefore.	Dec 28 22:50
kentma	Never mind - all will be welll.	Dec 28 22:51
schestowitz	I'll probably use Google.	Dec 28 22:58
schestowitz	They impose limits and I can't do "Related:" too well, but it's a decent compromise. :-)	Dec 28 22:59
schestowitz	kentma: thanks for letting me know! :-) I have a contingency, so it'll be fine.	Dec 28 23:05
schestowitz	I don't think I'll make good posts (can't easily access information), but it's better than nothing.	Dec 28 23:06
schestowitz	Dragoon told Asay -- privately -- that he wasn't keen on the BrainShare event.	Dec 28 23:10
schestowitz	About OOo and fork, someone tells me that "copyright assignments are the background of this. Sun needs them in order to continue selling StarOffice, it's part of their bussiness model (and I don't think that's a bad thing if we get OOo as a by-product)."	Dec 28 23:11
schestowitz	"Besides, the role of OOo is too important, and its development too expensive for us to afford two competing projects. The same happens with e.g. wine or samba."	Dec 28 23:11
schestowitz	So they weaken OOo for selfish gain perhaps	Dec 28 23:11
*captain_magnus (n=mboman@opensuse/member/MBoman) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 28 23:32
neighborlee	well its free, so what if they have one for sale, that amoung other things has paid support yadda...kind of like kde which needs qt, which is free for basic use otherwise..	Dec 28 23:42
benJIman	It's free for any use by free software.	Dec 28 23:43
neighborlee	I was just making a anaology...no offense meant to qt on any level	Dec 28 23:44
*kentma has quit ("Leaving.")		Dec 28 23:57
*kentma (n=user@GLPHON22-1168101524.sdsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell		Dec 28 23:57

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: December 28th, 2008

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