IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 27th, 2009 - Part 2

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2009-03-28 09:16:20 UTC
Modified: 2009-03-28 09:16:20 UTC

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

schestowitz	The server is overloaded again.	Mar 27 08:16
trmanco	wispygalaxy might come here today	Mar 27 08:17
trmanco	schestowitz, what server?	Mar 27 08:17
Omar871	Hey all.	Mar 27 08:17
schestowitz	BN. This leads to problem when commenting for example	Mar 27 08:18
schestowitz	I hope the host does not complain	Mar 27 08:18
trmanco	hello	Mar 27 08:19
schestowitz	The comment system does not work well because of server load	Mar 27 08:43
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schestowitz	zoobab01: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=...	Mar 27 09:17
schestowitz	ping zer0c00l	Mar 27 09:29
zer0c00l	schestowitz:64 bytes from zer0c00l: icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=0.219 ms	Mar 27 09:32
zer0c00l	:)	Mar 27 09:32
schestowitz	ACK	Mar 27 09:32
schestowitz	Someone who's an MSP has just commented in BN	Mar 27 09:33
zer0c00l	oh	Mar 27 09:33
zer0c00l	ok	Mar 27 09:33
zer0c00l	let me c	Mar 27 09:33
schestowitz	But also, I want to find which shills in India lobby for software patents	Mar 27 09:33
schestowitz	The best way to counter it is to find out and point out the cronies	Mar 27 09:33
zer0c00l	yes	Mar 27 09:33
schestowitz	MSPs live in illusions, like MS employees	Mar 27 09:34
zer0c00l	:D	Mar 27 09:34
zer0c00l	yes	Mar 27 09:34
zer0c00l	Microoosoofft Student paartneeer	Mar 27 09:35
schestowitz	There is a big push from MS right now to legalise sw patents	Mar 27 09:37
schestowitz	They attack TomTOm with embargo threats	Mar 27 09:37
schestowitz	ITC	Mar 27 09:37
schestowitz	And in India too AFAIK	Mar 27 09:37
schestowitz	The draft manual.	Mar 27 09:37
schestowitz	zoobab01 would know more	Mar 27 09:37
schestowitz	So we need to blog the issue more... I'll post an RMS video later	Mar 27 09:37
schestowitz	MSPs are too brainwashed and immersed for me to both replying to. They are also greedy.	Mar 27 09:38
zer0c00l	schestowitz: are you going to reply for that comment?	Mar 27 09:38
zer0c00l	yes	Mar 27 09:38
schestowitz	They would let Indian burn if they made a buck	Mar 27 09:39
zer0c00l	bunch of morons who promotes crappy technology	Mar 27 09:39
schestowitz	*India	Mar 27 09:39
schestowitz	zer0c00l: no, I won't reply	Mar 27 09:39
zer0c00l	do you want me to ?	Mar 27 09:39
schestowitz	I tried before when some MS lackeys from Kerala fought back with BS	Mar 27 09:39
schestowitz	zer0c00l: yes, please	Mar 27 09:39
schestowitz	Tell them about MS writing letters on behalf of dead people	Mar 27 09:40
zer0c00l	let me start a flame war :D	Mar 27 09:40
zer0c00l	yes	Mar 27 09:40
zer0c00l	Dead people	Mar 27 09:40
schestowitz	Those kids don't know what Microsoft is *really( doing	Mar 27 09:40
zer0c00l	?	Mar 27 09:40
schestowitz	Microsoft thrives in innocence and ignorance	Mar 27 09:40
schestowitz	Imposed by PR	Mar 27 09:40
schestowitz	zer0c00l: you didn't know?	Mar 27 09:40
zer0c00l	yes	Mar 27 09:40
schestowitz	Search BN for "dead people"	Mar 27 09:40
schestowitz	You have catching up to do. ;-)	Mar 27 09:40
zer0c00l	yes	Mar 27 09:41
zer0c00l	;)	Mar 27 09:41
zer0c00l	http://boycottnovell.com/200... ?	Mar 27 09:42
zer0c00l	schestowitz: i posted BN link in a blog he came here from there http://gracelyne.wordpress.com/2009/0...	Mar 27 09:46
MinceR	geekings	Mar 27 09:47
schestowitz	zer0c00l: there are more posts on that incident	Mar 27 09:49
zer0c00l	oh	Mar 27 09:50
zer0c00l	i just commented back at that girl	Mar 27 09:51
zer0c00l	@gracelyne	Mar 27 09:51
zer0c00l	>>Lets appreciate technolgy!Shall we ?	Mar 27 09:51
zer0c00l	No, Lets appreciate GOOD technology.	Mar 27 09:51
zer0c00l	you are appreciating technology from a software molester.	Mar 27 09:51
zer0c00l	:D	Mar 27 09:51
schestowitz	Heh.	Mar 27 09:54
zer0c00l	schestowitz: preparing comment	Mar 27 09:55
zer0c00l	:)	Mar 27 09:55
schestowitz	Thanks.	Mar 27 09:55
zer0c00l	seems like a seminar	Mar 27 09:57
zer0c00l	will post it tonight	Mar 27 09:57
zer0c00l	later	Mar 27 09:58
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oiaohm	http://arstechnica.com/open-source/... <<Some of googles project names take the cake.	Mar 27 10:25
amarsh04	"bakery thief"? (-:	Mar 27 10:29
schestowitz	Google gives Python a kick in the pants.	Mar 27 10:37
oiaohm	Over due kick.	Mar 27 10:38
schestowitz	trmanco: where are you going for 10 days?	Mar 27 10:38
MinceR	lol, nice	Mar 27 10:39
trmanco	schestowitz, Spain	Mar 27 10:39
schestowitz	oiaohm: MS tried to contain (EEE) python	Mar 27 10:39
schestowitz	Sun tris too... JPython and hires	Mar 27 10:39
MinceR	isn't that Jython?	Mar 27 10:39
oiaohm	Different here llvm has the direct means to make native code.	Mar 27 10:40
schestowitz	MinceR: yes	Mar 27 10:40
oiaohm	Python has really been the last hold out major bytecode language.	Mar 27 10:41
oiaohm	Should get intresting python vs ruby.	Mar 27 10:42
amarsh04	the first ruby program I installed on my pc was "rubyripper" - a google-hosted project. For something written in a language developed by a Japanese person, I was surprised that it crashed on some Japanese text in the title of the album I was trying to rip	Mar 27 10:46
trmanco	hehe, posting on ping.fm works really well	Mar 27 10:51
*trmanco goes back to packing		Mar 27 10:51
schestowitz	trmanco: where do you post to. identica and twitter?	Mar 27 11:00
trmanco	schestowitz, I post from Gwibber...	Mar 27 11:01
trmanco	I was just trying out ping.fm on a mobile connection to see if it works	Mar 27 11:01
trmanco	http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/0...	Mar 27 11:05
trmanco	I can get that computer for -$150	Mar 27 11:06
trmanco	...	Mar 27 11:06
trmanco	stupid ad	Mar 27 11:06
trmanco	troll -> http://lifehacker.com/5180833/firs...	Mar 27 11:10
schestowitz	"windows xp takes 15 sec."	Mar 27 11:11
schestowitz	To return from hibernation? :-)	Mar 27 11:12
oiaohm	You can get XP started in 10 flat.	Mar 27 11:12
oiaohm	But that is anti-virus free and basically gutted.	Mar 27 11:13
trmanco	oiaohm, yes you can... after you've finished installing it	Mar 27 11:14
trmanco	...	Mar 27 11:15
oiaohm	No nlite custom disk.	Mar 27 11:15
trmanco	after you install the 300 pending updates it starts to get slower	Mar 27 11:15
oiaohm	With a much as you can cut out.	Mar 27 11:15
oiaohm	Including checking for updates.	Mar 27 11:15
schestowitz	On a 2.2 GHx Celeron???/	Mar 27 11:15
trmanco	then you install driver (Ah drivers) and a antivirus and then it gets even slower	Mar 27 11:16
schestowitz	*1.2 GHz	Mar 27 11:16
trmanco	schestowitz, yes it might... hard to believe though	Mar 27 11:16
schestowitz	I don't buy it	Mar 27 11:16
oiaohm	That is double what I got 10 secs on.	Mar 27 11:16
oiaohm	600 mhz completely gutted XP	Mar 27 11:16
oiaohm	10 seconds is doable.	Mar 27 11:17
oiaohm	Really when the install is only 50 megs yes there was not much of XP left	Mar 27 11:17
trmanco	once you start using the registry and fraging both FS and registry, it starts to get sluggish	Mar 27 11:18
trmanco	and it starts to crash	Mar 27 11:18
oiaohm	There is a third cause of XP getting slower.	Mar 27 11:18
oiaohm	That I have not found.	Mar 27 11:18
trmanco	oiaohm, what's that	Mar 27 11:18
trmanco	ah, it's random then?	Mar 27 11:19
oiaohm	You can defrag and clean the registry.	Mar 27 11:19
trmanco	oiaohm, I know	Mar 27 11:19
oiaohm	And the performance does not come back.	Mar 27 11:19
trmanco	true	Mar 27 11:19
oiaohm	I suspect windows updates.	Mar 27 11:19
trmanco	yeah, I've stated that	Mar 27 11:19
oiaohm	I have even used old copied of the registry.	Mar 27 11:19
trmanco	<trmanco> after you install the 300 pending updates it starts to get slower	Mar 27 11:19
oiaohm	It also could be sxs	Mar 27 11:19
oiaohm	Basically there is something else slowing windows down.	Mar 27 11:20
trmanco	crap kernel	Mar 27 11:20
oiaohm	After reboots nop.	Mar 27 11:20
trmanco	http://www.itnews.com.au/News/99681,mic...	Mar 27 11:20
oiaohm	The thing that gets me the slow down always lines up with a NEW MS OS getting released.	Mar 27 11:21
oiaohm	Ie bigger slow down at those times than anyother time.	Mar 27 11:21
trmanco	I just laugh at Windows when I leave it all night doing something and then the other day I'm thrown a "Windows had a critical error" Windows... all work lost	Mar 27 11:22
trmanco	pathetic	Mar 27 11:22
Eruaran	Makes you wonder	Mar 27 11:22
Eruaran	How long will people put up with it	Mar 27 11:22
schestowitz	I just assume Linux will work the following day	Mar 27 11:23
schestowitz	I had it run many experiments over night	Mar 27 11:23
oiaohm	LOL the document is not secret about the cloud	Mar 27 11:23
schestowitz	Windows can hardly do large backups reliably	Mar 27 11:23
schestowitz	You have to redo	Mar 27 11:23
trmanco	1 year XP install acting like this... If I could, I would tell BillyG to stick the instalation CD and a external hard drive with the source code up it's ass	Mar 27 11:23
oiaohm	Its a joint pack to unified standards including non patent attack.	Mar 27 11:23
oiaohm	Against all members and there customers and supporting developers.	Mar 27 11:23
trmanco	Eruaran, people won't admit that	Mar 27 11:23
oiaohm	MS signs that there cases against Linux goes.	Mar 27 11:24
trmanco	if Windows crashes they just ignore it, at least in my experience	Mar 27 11:24
schestowitz	industry-expresses-outrage-at-secret-microsoft-apis.aspx	Mar 27 11:24
Eruaran	Wont admit what ? That Windows is, and always has been, crap ?	Mar 27 11:24
trmanco	Eruaran, yes, and it never crashes for them	Mar 27 11:24
oiaohm	Linux has not been much better.	Mar 27 11:24
oiaohm	for desktop usage.	Mar 27 11:24
trmanco	they like BSoD, it's like a feature	Mar 27 11:24
oiaohm	X11 splat	Mar 27 11:24
oiaohm	Vs BSoD	Mar 27 11:24
trmanco	splat?	Mar 27 11:24
Eruaran	?	Mar 27 11:25
oiaohm	X11 crashes cutting off video access.	Mar 27 11:25
oiaohm	So the screen just freases.	Mar 27 11:25
oiaohm	BSoD is kinda nicer.	Mar 27 11:25
Eruaran	The only time I've had trouble with Linux is if I'm deliberately using bleeding edge alpha stuff	Mar 27 11:25
trmanco	yeah I had those problems with blog shit drivers	Mar 27 11:25
trmanco	blob*	Mar 27 11:25
oiaohm	KMS in Linux will give Linux like a BSoD	Mar 27 11:26
oiaohm	So a Nvidia/other closed source splat will be known straight up.	Mar 27 11:26
oiaohm	That way people can go attack the party responisable.	Mar 27 11:26
trmanco	Not long ago I was using the Ati proprietary driver, It would crash Xorg when using Compiz, dunno why, and I also had double Xorg processes each eating up 100 MB ram	Mar 27 11:26
oiaohm	MS BSoD being cryptic makes them basicallly useless.	Mar 27 11:26
oiaohm	That is to be expected I can tell you what was going on trmanco	Mar 27 11:27
trmanco	now, Xorg never has crashed after that, and I have only one Xorg process eating up 80 mg ram	Mar 27 11:27
oiaohm	Ati propriertary driver was a DRI 1 design.	Mar 27 11:27
trmanco	oiaohm, what was it?	Mar 27 11:27
oiaohm	So whole stack of over layours had to be used to make Compiz work.	Mar 27 11:28
oiaohm	Ie huge ram usage.	Mar 27 11:28
trmanco	hmm	Mar 27 11:28
oiaohm	On top of that DRI 1 drivers have a race condition flaw that Compiz exposes.	Mar 27 11:28
oiaohm	So yep dead man walking in more than one.	Mar 27 11:29
trmanco	the open source driver works fine for me	Mar 27 11:29
oiaohm	Run the DRI 1 driver long enough even the open source one with compiz it will crash.	Mar 27 11:29
trmanco	I'll bet it won't	Mar 27 11:30
oiaohm	DRI 2 is required to remove the race condition flaw.	Mar 27 11:30
oiaohm	I have already had this bet many times over with many people in winehq.	Mar 27 11:30
oiaohm	So far they have all lost.	Mar 27 11:30
oiaohm	DRI 1 is being replaced because there is a non repairable flaw in its design that causes the race condition.	Mar 27 11:31
oiaohm	It was only designed for 1 opengl application at a time.	Mar 27 11:31
oiaohm	Yep opps	Mar 27 11:31
oiaohm	Compiz + another program opengl program you have 2 opengl programs so causing the race conditions of two applications trying to use only one interface on offer.	Mar 27 11:32
trmanco	oiaohm, ah, that is what causes the flickering right?	Mar 27 11:32
trmanco	when using some other program with opengl	Mar 27 11:33
oiaohm	Yep you will 100 percent for sure go splat.	Mar 27 11:33
oiaohm	That flickering is like the warning sign.	Mar 27 11:33
trmanco	wine does that when starting, but it never crashed	Mar 27 11:33
trmanco	Xorg	Mar 27 11:33
oiaohm	Right set of gpu instructions cut half way and half another sent splat.	Mar 27 11:34
oiaohm	It will happen.	Mar 27 11:34
trmanco	só, I just turn off compiz and everthing works right again	Mar 27 11:34
oiaohm	You just have been lucky that is all trmanco	Mar 27 11:34
oiaohm	That is the luck of race conditions.	Mar 27 11:34
trmanco	Ah, ok :-P	Mar 27 11:34
oiaohm	And of course luck runs out.	Mar 27 11:34
trmanco	maybe I have skynet controlling my linux box :-P	Mar 27 11:35
oiaohm	When dri 2 drivers are stable trmanco upgrade.	Mar 27 11:35
oiaohm	Then you can have compiz	Mar 27 11:35
oiaohm	Until then its a risk.	Mar 27 11:35
trmanco	I'll have to wait	Mar 27 11:35
trmanco	how is the status of DRI2 on the radeon driver? I can't seem to find it	Mar 27 11:36
oiaohm	Record so far is 8 months before the race condition caught up to the a person.	Mar 27 11:36
oiaohm	DRI2 parts for radeons are not kernel merged yet.	Mar 27 11:36
trmanco	ok...	Mar 27 11:36
oiaohm	Hopefully 2.6.30	Mar 27 11:36
*trmanco is waiting		Mar 27 11:36
oiaohm	Then for 3d accleration galluim3d is required	Mar 27 11:37
oiaohm	So before end of year some time.	Mar 27 11:37
trmanco	GEM is also cool	Mar 27 11:37
oiaohm	GEM is part of it.	Mar 27 11:37
trmanco	ah ok	Mar 27 11:37
Eruaran	I haven't used compiz for a few weeks now	Mar 27 11:37
oiaohm	GEM is the bit that manages GPU memory so applications don't step on each other toes.	Mar 27 11:37
oiaohm	So preventing the race condition.	Mar 27 11:38
MinceR	GEM keeps making me think of the older GEM	Mar 27 11:38
Eruaran	heh	Mar 27 11:39
Eruaran	same here	Mar 27 11:39
trmanco	Ruby gem?	Mar 27 11:39
Eruaran	The original GEM	Mar 27 11:39
Eruaran	Go back to the 80's	Mar 27 11:39
trmanco	:O	Mar 27 11:40
oiaohm	http://gem.shaneland.co.uk/ << You are thinking of this that is Open source these days.	Mar 27 11:40
MinceR	wow, colors	Mar 27 11:41
trmanco	ah, cool	Mar 27 11:41
oiaohm	Yes its funny that the source code and sdk of gem takes 44 meg archive.	Mar 27 11:41
MinceR	i've only ever seen it on Atari ST	Mar 27 11:42
MinceR	where it was black, white and green only in the background	Mar 27 11:42
oiaohm	Might get kinda insane one day and port opengem to Linux framebuffer.	Mar 27 11:42
MinceR	http://graphjam.com/2009/03/12/s...	Mar 27 11:46
schestowitz	Check out my new CSS changes: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/20/m...	Mar 27 11:54
schestowitz	Mind the quote on the left and the one at the bottom (picture+borders)	Mar 27 11:54
schestowitz	Oh, might have to flush cache (CSS is caches usually)	Mar 27 11:56
schestowitz	Reload the CSS first: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-conten...	Mar 27 11:56
Eruaran	BN is only thing I can get to work with my RSSNOW widget	Mar 27 12:02
*Eruaran kicks widget		Mar 27 12:02
Eruaran	Apparently Plymouth only works on Intel hardware, is this true ?	Mar 27 12:04
MinceR	iirc it needs KMS, which currently only works on intel gpu-s	Mar 27 12:05
Eruaran	oh i c	Mar 27 12:11
oiaohm	Other drivers are coming Eruaran	Mar 27 12:16
oiaohm	So intel hardware for now VIA and ATI hardware in time	Mar 27 12:16
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trmanco	cool, you changed the quote block	Mar 27 12:20
Eruaran\|alphates	Firefox is retarded	Mar 27 12:23
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trmanco	?	Mar 27 12:23
trmanco	ctrl+R	Mar 27 12:23
Eruaran	I downloaded an image	Mar 27 12:24
Eruaran	The full resolution image has been downloaded	Mar 27 12:24
Eruaran	But when I want to save the image	Mar 27 12:24
Eruaran	Firefox downloads the whole thing all over again	Mar 27 12:24
Eruaran	Retarded	Mar 27 12:25
Eruaran	Hence, I use Konqueror for downloading wallpapers from Interfacelift	Mar 27 12:26
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trmanco	ah ok	Mar 27 13:00
trmanco	Since when does _Microsoft make proper anti-crack software? -> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/ne...	Mar 27 13:05
trmanco	WGA has always failed	Mar 27 13:05
MinceR	there's no such thing as proper DRM	Mar 27 13:07
trmanco	you call that DRM?	Mar 27 13:10
trmanco	I call it shit software	Mar 27 13:10
oiaohm	There is such thing as a Proper DRM.	Mar 27 13:11
trmanco	microsoft could shut down the light of all pirated Windows if it wanted too	Mar 27 13:11
trmanco	lights*	Mar 27 13:11
oiaohm	Proper DRM is a true prick.	Mar 27 13:11
oiaohm	Its embeded inside the processing units.	Mar 27 13:11
oiaohm	So nothing transfered out side the processing unit is in a unencrypted state.	Mar 27 13:12
oiaohm	Its really sentivie to any form of hardware failure.	Mar 27 13:12
MinceR	and how are you going to view that content? :>	Mar 27 13:27
oiaohm	Normally high secuirty transfer routers.	Mar 27 13:27
oiaohm	So you are not ment to view the data at that location MinceR	Mar 27 13:28
MinceR	video/audio will still be converted to analog data, otherwise you won't be able to see/hear anything	Mar 27 13:28
oiaohm	Transfer routers.	Mar 27 13:28
oiaohm	You try moniting at there location you have jack.	Mar 27 13:28
oiaohm	You have to get to a client at 1 end to decode.	Mar 27 13:28
MinceR	and the client decodes, and then you get the unencrypted stuff	Mar 27 13:29
MinceR	with hw hacking you can get it in digital form	Mar 27 13:29
MinceR	also, if the processing units aren't tamperproof, you can get at the key anyway	Mar 27 13:29
oiaohm	transfer routers are more of a prick than that.	Mar 27 13:30
MinceR	if you won't define "transfer router", i won't listen to you anymore. :>	Mar 27 13:30
oiaohm	Yes in the processor is a embeded key for start up.	Mar 27 13:31
oiaohm	high secuirty transfer rounters recieve data encrypted. Can apply alteration encryption to data packet. Ie a key that translated from one encrypted patern to another without decycrypting.	Mar 27 13:34
oiaohm	Basically you have a box with basically no exposed plan texted MinceR	Mar 27 13:34
oiaohm	Taking it off line also can equal it unable to reconnect.	Mar 27 13:35
oiaohm	MinceR: pricks of things. Makes VPN look friendly.	Mar 27 13:35
MinceR	sounds like something that will only work with linear encryption algorithms	Mar 27 13:36
MinceR	(otherwise there aren't a lot of operations you can do on encrypted data without decrypting)	Mar 27 13:36
MinceR	then again, with a key stream it might even work	Mar 27 13:37
schestowitz	trmanco: thanks, seen the WGA thing. Will write about it later	Mar 27 13:38
trmanco	ok	Mar 27 13:38
schestowitz	I'm doing a long article now	Mar 27 13:38
schestowitz	THat's why I'm quiet in IRC	Mar 27 13:38
oiaohm	Translation patterns are evil on really complex compressions. Its a realy nasty set of double maths to create them. Ie decypt formual put with encrypt forumul with both keys embed then optmised into a conversion forumal.	Mar 27 13:39
oiaohm	If done right at no point does the data ever return to true plaintext.	Mar 27 13:40
oiaohm	Its the only true DRM I know that works MinceR	Mar 27 13:40
MinceR	but then you need to generate a stream of key bits	Mar 27 13:41
MinceR	or use weak encryption	Mar 27 13:41
MinceR	i doubt you can do _everything_ you need with translation patterns	Mar 27 13:41
oiaohm	Hard part is how complex translation patterns are to make.	Mar 27 13:42
MinceR	also, some of your processing units _will_ need to know the secret that lets them decrypt the content	Mar 27 13:42
oiaohm	so there weakness is normally a slow key update cycle.	Mar 27 13:42
MinceR	and the user will still have them physically	Mar 27 13:42
oiaohm	Yes physical end points need real human secuirty.	Mar 27 13:43
MinceR	also, note that users aren't terribly sensitive to quality so a tranformation that involves an analog format will still be acceptable to a lot of people	Mar 27 13:43
trmanco	psyb0t	Mar 27 13:45
oiaohm	What the transfer router is doing is DRM. It allows particular users access to data streams and not others. Based on how it transforms the stream.	Mar 27 13:46
oiaohm	When they screw up and double stack alter its not nice.	Mar 27 13:46
oiaohm	[send user key][transform][recieveuser key][transform][o crap what key is this]	Mar 27 13:47
oiaohm	There not your normal beasts MinceR	Mar 27 13:52
oiaohm	You know someone is getting nuts when someone asks you to repair one of those transfer routers and you read the manual in blue prints is a optional block of c4.	Mar 27 13:53
MinceR	in the end, you're going to have to use a DAC to get an analog signal	Mar 27 13:55
MinceR	that DAC will receive unencrypted content	Mar 27 13:55
schestowitz	Or use a tripod	Mar 27 13:55
schestowitz	Capture output perfectly	Mar 27 13:56
MinceR	that's far from perfect, but people have been known to seek recordings of a movie screen done with handheld cameras from a suboptimal seat	Mar 27 13:56
oiaohm	Note digital rights management. The system I am talking about is normally not used on videos. But on documents going from location to location.	Mar 27 13:58
oiaohm	It reduces the numbers of keys each end has to know.	Mar 27 13:59
MinceR	can they take notes or photos of the screens?	Mar 27 13:59
MinceR	is physical security of the terminals ensured?	Mar 27 13:59
oiaohm	Remember I said the end points had to have real secuirty.	Mar 27 13:59
oiaohm	Yep physical secuirty at the termianls.	Mar 27 14:00
MinceR	that sounds workable.	Mar 27 14:00
MinceR	(though you might want to ban people with implants eventually :> )	Mar 27 14:00
oiaohm	Its the only form of DRM I know that works.	Mar 27 14:00
oiaohm	Kinda upgrade to the next level.	Mar 27 14:00
MinceR	but it won't work with most forms/uses of content.	Mar 27 14:01
oiaohm	What I just explained to you is what a proper working DRM looks like.	Mar 27 14:02
oiaohm	Not the most friendly things.	Mar 27 14:02
oiaohm	Most things called DRM is just a impersonation ofit.	Mar 27 14:02
oiaohm	Implants in theory open up a scary form.	Mar 27 14:03
MinceR	sounds more like proper encryption than DRM :>	Mar 27 14:03
oiaohm	Inload information into person mind in a way they cannot repeat it.	Mar 27 14:03
oiaohm	The transfer router is the DRM bit.	Mar 27 14:03
oiaohm	Its controlling who can access what.	Mar 27 14:04
MinceR	did they call this DRM before the term was used for "premium content"?	Mar 27 14:04
MinceR	access control can be implemented in many ways :)	Mar 27 14:04
oiaohm	Yes they did.	Mar 27 14:04
MinceR	ic	Mar 27 14:04
oiaohm	Media companies picked up a older term.	Mar 27 14:04
oiaohm	And half ass implemented it.	Mar 27 14:04
oiaohm	Ie cut off the end point secuirty.	Mar 27 14:05
oiaohm	The idea of each user having a unique decode and encode key is part of the older DRM model.	Mar 27 14:05
oiaohm	So if a point is breached they only get 1 key and stop sending data on that path there is no free data.	Mar 27 14:06
oiaohm	Its completely designed to avoid large stock piles of keys in locations that cannot be protected.	Mar 27 14:06
oiaohm	Where the media companies got the idea of DRM from was a fully valid MinceR	Mar 27 14:08
MinceR	ic	Mar 27 14:08
MinceR	so it's a typical case of someone seeing someting workable and trying to copy it without understanding it	Mar 27 14:08
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 27 14:08
MinceR	that's how we got WEP and GSM security :>	Mar 27 14:08
oiaohm	There is proper DRM just most people are like you have no clue what it is.	Mar 27 14:09
oiaohm	Until its explained.	Mar 27 14:09
MinceR	well now i do	Mar 27 14:09
MinceR	i think these two things are distinct enough to warrant different names, so i guess i'll just call media DRM "copy protection" :>	Mar 27 14:10
oiaohm	The media companies are trying to get the end point protections through laws.	Mar 27 14:10
oiaohm	Where when used in mil and intelegance groups they have men with guys at each end.	Mar 27 14:11
MinceR	that would be the end of the personal computer.	Mar 27 14:11
oiaohm	Exactly if proper DRM ever got implemented there would be no room for a personal computer.	Mar 27 14:12
oiaohm	Most mobile device would not have a home either.	Mar 27 14:12
MinceR	it's more than that: they'd have to forbid PCs (and mobile computers) entirely.	Mar 27 14:12
MinceR	if you have one, you can use it to handle media in any way you want.	Mar 27 14:13
oiaohm	As you can see the media companys are trying to build proper DRM.	Mar 27 14:13
Balrog	DRM != copy protection	Mar 27 14:13
oiaohm	But they really have not though through the results.	Mar 27 14:13
Balrog	drm is more like usage prevention	Mar 27 14:13
Balrog	not copy prevention	Mar 27 14:14
MinceR	any use of digital media is copying, isn't it? :)	Mar 27 14:14
Balrog	was copy protection on floppy disks back in the 80's DRM?	Mar 27 14:14
oiaohm	Coping is basically not preventable.	Mar 27 14:14
MinceR	unless it's a stream you don't store	Mar 27 14:14
MinceR	Balrog: dunno, but i think these things are fundamentally the same thing.	Mar 27 14:15
Balrog	no it isn't ... but if it's trivial people will copy	Mar 27 14:15
Balrog	I'm not so sure about that	Mar 27 14:15
Balrog	the bad thing about DRM is the anti circumvention	Mar 27 14:15
oiaohm	the other thing about the terminals in a mil grade DRM network all storage devices remain encrypted. Only the terminal has the keys.	Mar 27 14:16
oiaohm	Very much like the media DRM idea.	Mar 27 14:16
oiaohm	They copied.	Mar 27 14:16
oiaohm	You don't use DRM if you want the data to be accessable in future either.	Mar 27 14:17
schestowitz	For those who don't know: Jonathan Zuck and ACT: What is It Anyway? http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/27/pr...	Mar 27 14:18
Balrog	well, floppy-disk copy protection is easily circumvented with the proper tools / software	Mar 27 14:18
MinceR	so is media DRM :>	Mar 27 14:19
Balrog	media DRM imposes more restrictions	Mar 27 14:19
Balrog	such as when you can use it, expiration, etc	Mar 27 14:19
Balrog	but then again, hardware copy protection is at least as nasty as media DRM	Mar 27 14:19
oiaohm	expiration happens in mil networks.	Mar 27 14:20
Balrog	(dongles)	Mar 27 14:20
oiaohm	key gets changed in termianl.	Mar 27 14:20
oiaohm	So everything on the terminal is rendered useless.	Mar 27 14:20
Balrog	all data?	Mar 27 14:20
oiaohm	All the data in that terminal	Mar 27 14:20
Balrog	wait ... this terminal has a disk?	Mar 27 14:21
oiaohm	Yep.	Mar 27 14:21
oiaohm	Not all of them.	Mar 27 14:21
oiaohm	Central point ones.	Mar 27 14:21
Balrog	that's not a good thing, unless the data is backed up before the key changes	Mar 27 14:22
oiaohm	Hopefully at other central points.	Mar 27 14:22
Balrog	(key changes are necessary in an encryption system; WPA does it for wifi)	Mar 27 14:22
oiaohm	Using these old style DRM systems you can really badly screw up.	Mar 27 14:23
oiaohm	Same fault that effects the old style Mil DRM systems effect modern day Media one.	Mar 27 14:24
oiaohm	Basically think of it as a fast way to scred the data on a terminal yet still make it look active.	Mar 27 14:25
oiaohm	To get around that problem holding onto decode keys was allowed. This is where the mil systems turn almost perfectly from a software point of view into a modernday drm.	Mar 27 14:27
oiaohm	Take away the gun men at the terminal end and DRM fails.	Mar 27 14:28
schestowitz	This one pisses me off TBH: Wikileaks Sponsor Raided By German Police < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews... >	Mar 27 14:33
schestowitz	Troll-headline: Is open source enabling next-gen vendor lock-in? < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10... >	Mar 27 14:37
schestowitz	Introducing YouTube EDU! < http://www.oculture.com/2009/03/... >	Mar 27 14:38
schestowitz	It's time for the UK government to move to GNU/Linux, just like France: http://www.channel4.com/news/article...	Mar 27 14:45
oiaohm	http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/News/140964,... Great	Mar 27 14:48
oiaohm	Now what is the responce going to be.	Mar 27 14:49
oiaohm	Some people idea of helpful is stupid.	Mar 27 14:49
schestowitz	Sun put itself on sale? http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001... (Intel CEO says Sun was shopped around)	Mar 27 14:49
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 27 14:49
schestowitz	oiaohm: thanks	Mar 27 14:49
schestowitz	Good timing	Mar 27 14:49
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oiaohm	That the a web site is breached only gives more grounds for dracoian measures.	Mar 27 14:50
schestowitz	The Microsoft Shane O'neill shill is attacking Linux again (in IDG, where else?)	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	Key lie: "Microsoft Rules Netbooks Now"	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	Errr... no.	Mar 27 14:51
oiaohm	MS does rule the Netbooks.	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	Dell puts Linux on one in 3 machines	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	In Europe, Linux has about 40%	Mar 27 14:51
oiaohm	But what is the point of ruling it if you are making no profit.	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	Microsoft uses the NPD BS once again	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	They do it with XBox too	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	Use US-only sales to fake things	Mar 27 14:51
schestowitz	Make it seem like US=world	Mar 27 14:52
oiaohm	Does not matter really.	Mar 27 14:52
oiaohm	Ok I know you don't like zdnet	Mar 27 14:52
schestowitz	They try to scare OEMs	Mar 27 14:52
schestowitz	Trying to tell them not to approach Linux	Mar 27 14:52
oiaohm	http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=4025 Just for once press the view results on these pages.	Mar 27 14:53
schestowitz	And they use shills like Fried, Bott, Enderle, Gralla, O'Neill...	Mar 27 14:53
oiaohm	The percentages are kinda off.	Mar 27 14:53
schestowitz	Adrian is another Windows lackey	Mar 27 14:53
schestowitz	A shame that a lot of editors don't know who's who, so they feed the Microsoft talking points	Mar 27 14:54
oiaohm	I think someone believed the web numbers about Linux.	Mar 27 14:54
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schestowitz	Yesterday BN was so overloaded that the server didn't dispatch some mail	Mar 27 14:56
oiaohm	Looks like the cache is not helping you enough schestowitz	Mar 27 14:57
schestowitz	I think the PHP scripts were ended before they even got around to sending mail alerts. So even with caching enabled it's no solution because we increase the load elsewhere. trmanco what's super cache's improvement over wp-cache?	Mar 27 14:57
schestowitz	oiaohm: it helps to an extent	Mar 27 14:57
schestowitz	The host was happy with it, but still monitors utility	Mar 27 14:58
schestowitz	This is silly... promoting Jesusphone using Linux or vice versa? http://www.junauza.com/2009/03/15-co... ping MinceR	Mar 27 14:59
oiaohm	You have had a lot of advertisement recently.	Mar 27 14:59
oiaohm	So number of end users of your site I guess are way up as well.	Mar 27 14:59
MinceR	well, if it had proper support, it could turn it into a pda/phone... without warranty, keyboard or memory card slot	Mar 27 14:59
MinceR	HTC does it better	Mar 27 14:59
MinceR	oh, it's only eye candy	Mar 27 14:59
MinceR	so it's pointless	Mar 27 15:00
schestowitz	oiaohm: even with caching it does, on average, 128.31 q/sec	Mar 27 15:01
schestowitz	And it's going up recently because more people use the site	Mar 27 15:01
schestowitz	MinceR: +1	Mar 27 15:01
schestowitz	Red Hat is soaring 17% (!!) for beating expectations in a crisis economy.	Mar 27 15:03
MinceR	still, if a jesusPhone user is promoting Linux, there still might be hope for the user ;)	Mar 27 15:04
schestowitz	Linux has better FS than Apple's Mac OS X	Mar 27 15:04
schestowitz	And that's just one example	Mar 27 15:04
schestowitz	OS X = dumbed-down Linux	Mar 27 15:04
schestowitz	Like Linux used to be to UNIX	Mar 27 15:05
Balrog	well OS X has extents and B-Trees ... Linux is only now implementing that	Mar 27 15:05
Balrog	(in ext4)	Mar 27 15:05
Balrog	but I think OS X will soon be using ZFS	Mar 27 15:05
MinceR	Balrog: have you heard of reiserfs, XFS and JFS?	Mar 27 15:06
MinceR	OS X is more like a dumbed-down BSD :>	Mar 27 15:07
Balrog	sure have. ReiserFS has been not too good in my experience; XFS is problematic for resizing, JFS is quite old...	Mar 27 15:07
Balrog	(but they're ok)	Mar 27 15:07
oiaohm	ZFS vs btrfs is going to be interesting.	Mar 27 15:07
Balrog	what HFS has always had is a fast filename-searching system	Mar 27 15:08
MinceR	Balrog: all 3 has extents and B-trees, and have been around for quite some time	Mar 27 15:09
MinceR	s/has/have/	Mar 27 15:09
Balrog	what about ext2 / ext3?	Mar 27 15:09
schestowitz	Social sites dent privacy efforts < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi... >. Given Email snooping (old), how is this news?	Mar 27 15:09
MinceR	ext3 might have extents, i'm not sure	Mar 27 15:09
MinceR	still, it makes your previous statement untrue	Mar 27 15:09
oiaohm	ext were desiged as a basic filesystem.	Mar 27 15:11
oiaohm	You needed more advanced you used something else under Linux.	Mar 27 15:11
MinceR	i think the main selling point of ext3 is that it's pretty solid and reliable.	Mar 27 15:14
oiaohm	Exactly basic.	Mar 27 15:14
oiaohm	More features you add the more reliablity problems you can have.	Mar 27 15:14
*schestowitz will have to burn a day extending the passport by 10 years		Mar 27 15:17
schestowitz	Wouldn't it be good if passports were just a process like registering in a Web site, getting confirmation E-mail and ticking a checkbox? ;-)	Mar 27 15:18
MinceR	it would be better if there were no states to cross the boundaries of	Mar 27 15:19
schestowitz	Or airports just a case of coming to the gate, throwing the suitcase on coverer belt at the boarding point?	Mar 27 15:19
schestowitz	*conveyor	Mar 27 15:19
schestowitz	MinceR: someone always wants to colonise, thus borders (geographical or social)	Mar 27 15:20
schestowitz	Even animals mark territories. They're just taking the p*ss	Mar 27 15:20
MinceR	then they're going to need some whacking.	Mar 27 15:20
schestowitz	The people at border control? :-D	Mar 27 15:21
oiaohm	http://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/inde... <<btrfs is designed as a upgrade filesystem.	Mar 27 15:21
MinceR	the people who want to colonize	Mar 27 15:22
schestowitz	Ramp for migration to Oraclinux	Mar 27 15:22
MinceR	it's called Oracle Unbreakable Linux ;)	Mar 27 15:22
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schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0...	Mar 27 15:24
schestowitz	Check out this digitised pot (opengl): http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2009/03/m...	Mar 27 15:29
schestowitz	http://www.phoronix.com/scan... (Canonical To Not Enable UXA, Too Problematic)	Mar 27 15:44
schestowitz	What does Europe have against GPLv3? < http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=3780 >. Bureaucratic trolls.	Mar 27 15:50
trmanco	http://toastytech.com/evil/fea...	Mar 27 15:51
schestowitz	Hehe. Nice.	Mar 27 15:58
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WMGarrison	Roy: thank you for the ACT article. Very well written.	Mar 27 16:01
schestowitz	No problem	Mar 27 16:02
schestowitz	Yours was better	Mar 27 16:02
schestowitz	There are followups	Mar 27 16:02
schestowitz	One in ECT	Mar 27 16:02
schestowitz	Another in CW	Mar 27 16:02
schestowitz	And Red Hat feels the pinch, sending people to jiggle you in Digital Majority	Mar 27 16:03
WMGarrison	Indeed	Mar 27 16:03
schestowitz	I ejoyed writing the latest post though	Mar 27 16:04
WMGarrison	They will come to see this is for their own good	Mar 27 16:04
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/27/...	Mar 27 16:04
WMGarrison	The current burst of action at the EU Commission is probably meaningless	Mar 27 16:05
WMGarrison	we are coming to the end of a term	Mar 27 16:05
schestowitz	Open saucers plan legal attack on patent office < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/5... >	Mar 27 16:06
schestowitz	LSE will have protests too	Mar 27 16:06
schestowitz	They'll mess up the place	Mar 27 16:06
schestowitz	WMGarrison: lots of coverage re: EU+community patent	Mar 27 16:06
schestowitz	Bid to secure agreement on patent regime http://www.europeanvoice.com/article/impor...	Mar 27 16:06
WMGarrison	This is standard patent busting approach	Mar 27 16:06
schestowitz	McCreevyism!	Mar 27 16:06
schestowitz	Patents: EUROCHAMBRES welcomes negotiation mandate for the European Commission "Today, the European Commission requested from the Council a negotiation mandate on the European and Community Patent Court." http://www.eubusiness.com/Rd/euro...	Mar 27 16:07
schestowitz	Meilensteine: Gewonnener Kampf gegen Softwarepatente -> http://diepresse.com/home/politik/...	Mar 27 16:07
schestowitz	http://www.euractiv.com/en/innovation/pat...	Mar 27 16:07
WMGarrison	All hell seems to have broken loose but it is probably for show. Nothing serious can happen any longer in this session.	Mar 27 16:08
WMGarrison	I assume many lobbyists and PR people are putting in lots of invoiceable hours	Mar 27 16:08
WMGarrison	I have summarized our questions to Red Hat here: http://wmgarrison.wikidot.com/	Mar 27 16:09
schestowitz	Thanks.	Mar 27 16:09
schestowitz	*/me looks	Mar 27 16:09
*schestowitz looks		Mar 27 16:10
WMGarrison	Thanks to you, you do a very important job	Mar 27 16:10
schestowitz	Who was it mailed to?	Mar 27 16:10
WMGarrison	Red Hat's jwildeboer is aware of it.	Mar 27 16:11
schestowitz	Intel patent war erupts: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquir...	Mar 27 16:11
WMGarrison	If there is interest, we may send it as an open letter	Mar 27 16:11
schestowitz	I can repost it. Some in Red Hat read BoycottNovell	Mar 27 16:12
WMGarrison	My thanks	Mar 27 16:13
WMGarrison	Perhaps we hold Red Hat to a higher standard	Mar 27 16:14
schestowitz	Yes, they got high	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	ACT was also defending MS in the EU antotrust case.	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	There are video recordings of him on the Audiovisual website of the	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	Commission.	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	Oops. Wrong clipboard stack	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	I was gonna paste a link to RHAT (RHT now) jumping 17%	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	They had good results	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	The Apple of the Linux world... vanity implied	Mar 27 16:15
WMGarrison	Zuck is well known in Brussels as the "large American software patents guy"	Mar 27 16:15
schestowitz	He's a lrge guy	Mar 27 16:16
schestowitz	Not sure about "American software patents"	Mar 27 16:16
schestowitz	Maybe they can send him to boot camp to lose some weight	Mar 27 16:16
schestowitz	It wouldl keep him out of Brussels for a while	Mar 27 16:16
WMGarrison	Must leave, goodbye	Mar 27 16:16
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MinceR	the French invented a nice way to lose weight quickly	Mar 27 16:17
schestowitz	Off with em ehads?	Mar 27 16:17
MinceR	indeed	Mar 27 16:18
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schestowitz	Opera plans Turbo mobile peek < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03... >	Mar 27 16:25
schestowitz	Ballmer's bully buddy has just had his wage slashed: http://www.theregister.co.uk/... Can EMC take the next step and give Tucci the boot? That wouldn't save VMware from the 3 Microsoft employees/executives Tucci installed in it... what a traitor.	Mar 27 16:27
schestowitz	"Extreme Networks told the Securities and Exchange Commission yesterday that it is cutting more jobs." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/27/extreme_job_cuts/	Mar 27 16:28
schestowitz	zoobab01: Good post: http://www.digitalmajority.org/foru... To what extent can imatrix play a role in bias though?	Mar 27 16:48
schestowitz	"This is the same company which could've adopted ODF (open document format), a perfectly good document standard which had already passed ISO standards, but instead railroaded ISO to have openxml approved despite mountains of problems." http://www.itworld.com/comments/65143	Mar 27 16:49
schestowitz	http://news.zdnet.com/2424-95... (Twitter still has no business model, and that's OK)	Mar 27 16:53
schestowitz	SEC Plans New Money Manager Rules After Madoff Fraud < http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pi... >	Mar 27 17:11
schestowitz	Amazon To Shutdown 3 Distribution Centers, Affecting 210 employees < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/... > RMS boycotts them	Mar 27 17:18
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schestowitz	Nowhere to hide: Forensic tool moves to Linux < http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/N... >	Mar 27 17:34
schestowitz	http://education.zdnet.com/?p=2310 (Who cares if XP support is ending?) Microsoft commits acts of stupidity again.	Mar 27 17:34
PetoKraus	hmm	Mar 27 17:41
PetoKraus	i don't think the "forensic tool" can do anything you couldn't gather manually	Mar 27 17:41
PetoKraus	only that it may be certified to ensure the evidence is not planted	Mar 27 17:41
schestowitz	It's Mac utils anyway	Mar 27 17:42
schestowitz	Not of much use	Mar 27 17:42
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PetoKraus	which i guess is the reason why the price point is so high	Mar 27 17:42
schestowitz	Hmmmmmm.... "After the recently leaked document from his ESS WG (the current rumour is that Zuck did it on purpose) [...] Secrecy and mystery are powerful weapons. Just think about ACTA and the so called leak of a preparatory information document by anyone. That gave ACTA a whole lot of buzz. I even doubt the ACTA document was confidential."	Mar 27 17:44
schestowitz	"My initial idea was to get you some parts of the document, and then ask someone if he can "leak" the (actually public and non-confidential) document. It is not formally "confidential" but no one has it. These are "lost documents" and there are hundreds."	Mar 27 17:44
schestowitz	Does anyone have the latest ACTA revision?	Mar 27 17:44
schestowitz	re: Novell deal.. "YEP! Pretty hard to communicate openly and properly about a SECRET agreement. Make the agreement open and public and let us judge for itself whether you sold your soul or not..." http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story...	Mar 27 18:02
schestowitz	http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4177.html "Wow, Jim, really? Perhaps you shouldn't be CEO of a Linux company. How does Microsoft make money off of Windows? They sell it. I know it sounds crazy, Jim, but that's how it works. You create something that people want and they'll buy it. Isn't that cool?"	Mar 27 18:06
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wispygalaxy	hi everyone!	Mar 27 18:23
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wispygalaxy	hi, is anyone here??	Mar 27 18:31
trmanco	hello	Mar 27 18:32
wispygalaxy	hi tony :)	Mar 27 18:33
trmanco	:)	Mar 27 18:33
wispygalaxy	so you made it haha	Mar 27 18:33
wispygalaxy	is roy around	Mar 27 18:33
trmanco	I'm always around here -P	Mar 27 18:33
trmanco	ping schestowitz	Mar 27 18:33
trmanco	I think he is	Mar 27 18:33
wispygalaxy	cool thx	Mar 27 18:33
wispygalaxy	did you get my message i sent you	Mar 27 18:34
trmanco	on digg? yeah	Mar 27 18:34
wispygalaxy	oh ok good	Mar 27 18:34
wispygalaxy	im at school now, what about you	Mar 27 18:35
trmanco	I typed earlier this morning that you were joining the BN's channel today	Mar 27 18:35
wispygalaxy	thx, hope he got the message	Mar 27 18:36
trmanco	I'm at home, preparing myself for the best 10 days of my like :-P	Mar 27 18:36
trmanco	life*	Mar 27 18:36
wispygalaxy	spring break for you? :D	Mar 27 18:36
trmanco	yeah, but I'm going out to another country to party :-P	Mar 27 18:36
wispygalaxy	i had mine earlier this month, it was cloudy almost everyday during my vacation :(	Mar 27 18:36
wispygalaxy	nice where are you going	Mar 27 18:36
wispygalaxy	i wanted to go to florida with my family, but my sister was at college	Mar 27 18:37
trmanco	some little city in Spain	Mar 27 18:37
wispygalaxy	thats nice, north or south?	Mar 27 18:37
trmanco	I have to check I dunno	Mar 27 18:37
trmanco	north I guess	Mar 27 18:38
wispygalaxy	i would like to go to spain too	Mar 27 18:38
trmanco	http://is.gd/pi8x	Mar 27 18:38
wispygalaxy	i see it's near france	Mar 27 18:39
trmanco	yes	Mar 27 18:39
wispygalaxy	ive been to france before, but when i was a baby	Mar 27 18:40
trmanco	I've never been to France yet	Mar 27 18:40
schestowitz	Hey, wispygalaxy	Mar 27 18:40
wispygalaxy	hi roy! :)	Mar 27 18:40
wispygalaxy	you should go tony, i want to go there again because i dont remember anything about my visit there	Mar 27 18:41
*schestowitz catches up		Mar 27 18:41
wispygalaxy	i came about 10 minutes ago	Mar 27 18:41
trmanco	I would like to visit Paris some day	Mar 27 18:41
schestowitz	Sorry, got distracted by something)	Mar 27 18:41
wispygalaxy	i was lonely here for a while	Mar 27 18:41
wispygalaxy	haha	Mar 27 18:41
trmanco	:-P	Mar 27 18:41
wispygalaxy	my sister knows a lot of french	Mar 27 18:42
wispygalaxy	thats ok roy ;)	Mar 27 18:42
wispygalaxy	its so nice where im at, i hate being stuck inside for class when its spring :(	Mar 27 18:43
wispygalaxy	i saw tulips near my dorm, they are the only flowers i saw so far on campus	Mar 27 18:43
wispygalaxy	still, things are ugly around here: no leaves on trees yet	Mar 27 18:44
schestowitz	hows digg?	Mar 27 18:45
*schestowitz eats a sandwich		Mar 27 18:45
wispygalaxy	haha i just had one today roy	Mar 27 18:46
wispygalaxy	what type	Mar 27 18:46
wispygalaxy	digg is okay, not like it was a year ago	Mar 27 18:46
schestowitz	sardines :-s	Mar 27 18:46
schestowitz	digg is depressing	Mar 27 18:46
wispygalaxy	my sister likes sardines on her pizza XD	Mar 27 18:46
schestowitz	dead more or less	Mar 27 18:47
wispygalaxy	yeah its all dumb stuff now	Mar 27 18:47
schestowitz	the honeymoons over	Mar 27 18:47
wispygalaxy	darn	Mar 27 18:47
wispygalaxy	the linux section is still readable	Mar 27 18:47
wispygalaxy	thanks to motang, astralknight, etc	Mar 27 18:47
wispygalaxy	so what do you plan to do this weekend, roy?	Mar 27 18:48
wispygalaxy	i might go to the park, anything that has to do with the outdoors	Mar 27 18:49
schestowitz	OK, now I can type	Mar 27 18:51
schestowitz	astralknight? Don't know that user...	Mar 27 18:52
wispygalaxy	he's new on digg	Mar 27 18:52
schestowitz	It's too cold here to enjoy being outside.	Mar 27 18:52
wispygalaxy	just friended him	Mar 27 18:52
wispygalaxy	awww that sucks	Mar 27 18:52
schestowitz	No way	Mar 27 18:52
schestowitz	People still join Digg?	Mar 27 18:52
wispygalaxy	yeah haha	Mar 27 18:52
schestowitz	Oh	Mar 27 18:52
wispygalaxy	politics have taken over digg though, i dont see them b/c i blocked them	Mar 27 18:53
schestowitz	The anti-Google lobby: Copyright - let the authors beware < http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/f... >	Mar 27 18:54
schestowitz	Digg politics = "ron paul tee rulez +4422 digg"	Mar 27 18:54
wispygalaxy	haha ron paul is not all that	Mar 27 18:55
wispygalaxy	he doesnt believe in evolution	Mar 27 18:55
wispygalaxy	thats unacceptable	Mar 27 18:55
schestowitz	I find the most articles that are interesting to me in TuxMachines	Mar 27 18:55
schestowitz	Digg seems obsolete for news	Mar 27 18:55
wispygalaxy	so true	Mar 27 18:55
schestowitz	It's for self-pleasing fans of <thing>	Mar 27 18:56
wispygalaxy	its all 'funny' videos and apple news	Mar 27 18:56
schestowitz	Funny = "kevin rose squeaks at cat"	Mar 27 18:56
wispygalaxy	lol	Mar 27 18:56
schestowitz	I think Ars Technica games Digg	Mar 27 18:56
schestowitz	Other sites do, for a fact	Mar 27 18:57
schestowitz	The basis for the site is hacked	Mar 27 18:57
wispygalaxy	i think a lot of site do	Mar 27 18:57
schestowitz	They thought people would promote important news	Mar 27 18:57
wispygalaxy	so many spammers friend me on digg	Mar 27 18:57
schestowitz	Instead people promote what they WANT promoted	Mar 27 18:57
wispygalaxy	its not another slashdot i guess lol	Mar 27 18:57
schestowitz	That's a seperate and mutually-indep' thing	Mar 27 18:57
schestowitz	*Separate	Mar 27 18:57
schestowitz	Also, Rose himself complained about it	Mar 27 18:57
wispygalaxy	'power diggers'	Mar 27 18:58
schestowitz	wispygalaxy: I think it is (another /.)	Mar 27 18:58
wispygalaxy	oh yeah, with the trolls	Mar 27 18:58
schestowitz	gamed by marketing people and ruined by agenda	Mar 27 18:58
wispygalaxy	sigh	Mar 27 18:58
schestowitz	Like AstroTurfers	Mar 27 18:58
schestowitz	Maybe Murdoch will just buy Digg and call it a day	Mar 27 18:58
schestowitz	RIP	Mar 27 18:58
wispygalaxy	leave us alone! we want to promote linux, and you guys are spreading mean and untrue things	Mar 27 18:59
wispygalaxy	murdoch's wealth was halved, i heard	Mar 27 18:59
wispygalaxy	diversify your portfolio, i say	Mar 27 18:59
wispygalaxy	i hear that in all of my finance courses, but people still dont do that	Mar 27 19:00
wispygalaxy	banks dont even focus on diversification; they worry too much about net interest income more	Mar 27 19:00
trmanco	who's Murdoch?	Mar 27 19:00
wispygalaxy	rupert murdoch is the head of newscorp	Mar 27 19:00
wispygalaxy	which owns the wall street journal	Mar 27 19:01
wispygalaxy	i had to subscribe to that last semester	Mar 27 19:01
wispygalaxy	$30	Mar 27 19:01
trmanco	Wow	Mar 27 19:01
wispygalaxy	it also owns fox news	Mar 27 19:01
schestowitz	The RIAA vs. 19 Year Old Cancer Patient < http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/enterta... >	Mar 27 19:01
schestowitz	wispygalaxy: you paid the Beast	Mar 27 19:02
wispygalaxy	jerks	Mar 27 19:02
wispygalaxy	my professor made us subscribe, she had the electronic list of people who had a subscription	Mar 27 19:03
wispygalaxy	at least i dont read it now	Mar 27 19:03
wispygalaxy	i read online news exclusively	Mar 27 19:03
Omar87	hi	Mar 27 19:03
wispygalaxy	hey omar	Mar 27 19:03
schestowitz	http://www.latimes.com/business/... "The online music store, under pressure from record labels, is abandoning its 99-cent-only strategy."	Mar 27 19:04
wispygalaxy	listen to the market and your customers, that is the way to go	Mar 27 19:04
schestowitz	WSJ is among the few dinosaurs that restrict online access	Mar 27 19:04
schestowitz	But the WSJ dinosaur is merely owned by another dinosaur, who may think of it as a lookalike pet	Mar 27 19:05
wispygalaxy	old people nowadays seem to only read papers	Mar 27 19:05
wispygalaxy	i live next door to two elderly couples, both get newspapers	Mar 27 19:05
wispygalaxy	my dad never got the paper because he's allergic to newsprint	Mar 27 19:05
wispygalaxy	true story	Mar 27 19:05
wispygalaxy	i heard congress wants to rescue US papers	Mar 27 19:06
trmanco	:\|	Mar 27 19:06
wispygalaxy	stop with the government spending!	Mar 27 19:06
trmanco	I just hate to be anxious for something sorry for the [OT]...	Mar 27 19:06
trmanco	grrr	Mar 27 19:06
trmanco	time just won't pass by	Mar 27 19:06
wispygalaxy	thats ok tony	Mar 27 19:06
wispygalaxy	i cant wait for the next decade, hopefully things will be better	Mar 27 19:07
*trmanco opens email, and hopes he has 5000 new emails to read		Mar 27 19:07
wispygalaxy	its not over 9000	Mar 27 19:07
wispygalaxy	:(	Mar 27 19:07
trmanco	2010? what is so special about that year? Linux owns Windows again? :-p	Mar 27 19:08
wispygalaxy	i think taxes change that year in the US	Mar 27 19:08
wispygalaxy	inheritance tax, not sure	Mar 27 19:09
schestowitz	Saving newspaper is stupid	Mar 27 19:10
schestowitz	We have something better already	Mar 27 19:10
schestowitz	Like wikileaks and blogs	Mar 27 19:10
schestowitz	But they try to save their old buddies at taxpayers' expense. That's you.	Mar 27 19:10
trmanco	that would be great, if the change to less	Mar 27 19:10
wispygalaxy	faster access to info, less trees dying, and less cumbersome to handle	Mar 27 19:10
Balrog	what do you think, ogg or mkv?	Mar 27 19:10
trmanco	Balrog, ogg	Mar 27 19:10
schestowitz	"Give us your money, wispygalaxy, we need to fund some propaganda to fund you"	Mar 27 19:10
wispygalaxy	hi balrog!	Mar 27 19:10
wispygalaxy	tony, i think the taxes will be 0% in 2010 for inheritance	Mar 27 19:11
schestowitz	Actually, the thing about PR is terrible because it's a Trillion$ industry in the US that taxpayers in the US fund	Mar 27 19:11
Balrog	yeah, but a very good program for transcoding stuff I use (FOSS) doesn't support it well	Mar 27 19:11
wispygalaxy	haha roy	Mar 27 19:11
wispygalaxy	dont brainwash me!!!	Mar 27 19:11
schestowitz	So they pay to be deceived, essnetially.	Mar 27 19:11
schestowitz	Yet nobody protests	Mar 27 19:11
Balrog	they say 'because ogg doesn't support VFR [variable framerates]'	Mar 27 19:11
wispygalaxy	b/c they are watching american idol and dont care	Mar 27 19:11
schestowitz	American Idol is selling dreams to people	Mar 27 19:12
schestowitz	"Work hard, stop thinking, maybe you'll be famous"	Mar 27 19:12
trmanco	crap, I only have 400 emails to read	Mar 27 19:12
wispygalaxy	i was soo obsessed with that show in middle school	Mar 27 19:12
wispygalaxy	i watched every episode	Mar 27 19:12
wispygalaxy	like the fangirl i was	Mar 27 19:12
schestowitz	This prevents people from pursuing things that might be more challenging to then. it's a cycle that is hard to escape, and it's designed this way	Mar 27 19:12
wispygalaxy	tony i have email inbox problems too haha, i can never read all of them	Mar 27 19:13
schestowitz	wispygalaxy: not good for you	Mar 27 19:13
schestowitz	Harmful to people's esteem	Mar 27 19:13
Balrog	I always read all email	Mar 27 19:13
schestowitz	Making heroes is a weaspon to controlling minds and feelings.	Mar 27 19:13
schestowitz	People live in the reflection of TV idols	Mar 27 19:14
wispygalaxy	its like greek mythology	Mar 27 19:14
schestowitz	You can then project habit via celebrities and onto people who admire them	Mar 27 19:14
wispygalaxy	people loved and hated their gods	Mar 27 19:14
schestowitz	it's a fascinating PR technique that they have	Mar 27 19:14
wispygalaxy	balrog, i get so many emails from youtube	Mar 27 19:14
schestowitz	Likewise with shopping, AKA spanding/spreeing.	Mar 27 19:14
schestowitz	it's a culture that increase loan giivng (money to banks) and boosts revenue for shops	Mar 27 19:14
Balrog	wispygalaxy: why do you have youtube sending emails?	Mar 27 19:15
schestowitz	Now they take the toll. Ho hum...	Mar 27 19:15
wispygalaxy	my sister is a shopping champ, she gets at least 2 articles of clothing every time she goes to the mall	Mar 27 19:15
Balrog	does she wear all the clothing?	Mar 27 19:15
wispygalaxy	balrog, they alert me to videos sent from friends. i dont miss them that way	Mar 27 19:15
wispygalaxy	yes she does balrog haha	Mar 27 19:15
Balrog	I see	Mar 27 19:15
schestowitz	Balrog: why wear them?	Mar 27 19:15
schestowitz	It's materialistic possession	Mar 27 19:16
wispygalaxy	everytime i see her, i dont recognize at least one part of her outfit	Mar 27 19:16
Balrog	heh lol	Mar 27 19:16
schestowitz	Accumulation as an esteem factor	Mar 27 19:16
trmanco	oh crap	Mar 27 19:16
Balrog	that's going too far ......	Mar 27 19:16
trmanco	Sun is against linux	Mar 27 19:16
Balrog	especially with something like clothes :/	Mar 27 19:16
Balrog	trmanco: link	Mar 27 19:16
wispygalaxy	when i ask her about it, she says "ugh dont you remember?? i got this last week at forever 21. you were there!"	Mar 27 19:16
schestowitz	Women often buy articles of clothing to replace old ones	Mar 27 19:16
schestowitz	The trouble is that older ones become obsolete	Mar 27 19:16
Balrog	though I know they like to promote [Open]Solaris	Mar 27 19:16
wispygalaxy	or out of fashion ones!	Mar 27 19:16
trmanco	Balrog, https://communications2.sun.com/servle...	Mar 27 19:16
schestowitz	Fashion instructs planned obsolecense	Mar 27 19:16
trmanco	just received this newsletter	Mar 27 19:17
schestowitz	If you change fashion constantly and use famous people to push it, then old clotihing become obsolete	Mar 27 19:17
wispygalaxy	my dad still has shirts from the '80s, its up to my mom to dispose of them. my family is not poor at all, though	Mar 27 19:17
schestowitz	That's find	Mar 27 19:17
schestowitz	Sentimental value	Mar 27 19:17
schestowitz	Sometimes the old clothes bear some memory	Mar 27 19:17
schestowitz	Attachment is formed	Mar 27 19:17
schestowitz	But anyway..	Mar 27 19:17
schestowitz	That's bad for industry	Mar 27 19:18
schestowitz	it thrives in obsolescence.	Mar 27 19:18
schestowitz	Vista for example	Mar 27 19:18
wispygalaxy	there will always be demand for fashion, dont worry designers!	Mar 27 19:18
schestowitz	You need new chips and monitors that are DRM- and TC-'ready'	Mar 27 19:18
wispygalaxy	also the car industry with Ford	Mar 27 19:18
wispygalaxy	the model t was involved with planned obsolescence	Mar 27 19:18
schestowitz	Clothing too. It's important to single out and marginalise those who don't comply with fashion trends	Mar 27 19:19
schestowitz	Else they might god forbid not buy the latest and greatest	Mar 27 19:19
wispygalaxy	at college, fashion is not as big of an issue as it was in high school	Mar 27 19:19
schestowitz	Commodity in fashion is another issue	Mar 27 19:19
wispygalaxy	there were so many punks, preppy, emo, and scene kids at my school	Mar 27 19:19
schestowitz	Clothing fares need to be artificially inflated.	Mar 27 19:19
schestowitz	Fashion and advertising can do that	Mar 27 19:19
schestowitz	"Selling a dream" as Guy Kawasaki called it	Mar 27 19:20
schestowitz	Why people buy Macs for so much money......	Mar 27 19:20
schestowitz	They buy an image	Mar 27 19:20
wispygalaxy	i learned about that in my marketing class	Mar 27 19:20
wispygalaxy	remember hathaway shirts? they were so successful because it was all about image, the shirts were nothing special; they were massed produced. but the ads had a fancy theme to them	Mar 27 19:21
Balrog	schestowitz: not always. That's a certain percentage	Mar 27 19:21
Balrog	maybe ... 25-50%	Mar 27 19:21
Balrog	many people buy macs for practical purposes	Mar 27 19:22
Balrog	(at least many people I know)	Mar 27 19:22
schestowitz	Yes, I exaggerated :-)	Mar 27 19:22
schestowitz	Balrog: my Apple remarks are often tongue-in-cheek	Mar 27 19:22
schestowitz	I wish Apple had sold with less attitudinal emphasis	Mar 27 19:23
wispygalaxy	cheeky haha	Mar 27 19:23
schestowitz	Like the pretentionous that's dripping from the ads	Mar 27 19:23
Balrog	I had a friend ... he passed away a couple of years ago, but he was in a newspaper editor and had to deal with the old archaic formats ... he also did video stuff .... always used macs	Mar 27 19:23
wispygalaxy	conspicuous consumption	Mar 27 19:23
Balrog	ads are ads	Mar 27 19:23
Balrog	the MS ads that will be coming up should be interesting	Mar 27 19:24
wispygalaxy	i saw the MS ad with the woman who had to buy a computer for under $1000	Mar 27 19:24
wispygalaxy	do you guys want a link	Mar 27 19:24
schestowitz	BN has just been entered into ODF Planet \0/	Mar 27 19:24
MinceR	i wish apple just hurried up and died already	Mar 27 19:25
wispygalaxy	is there a link for that	Mar 27 19:25
Balrog	Apple won't die	Mar 27 19:25
Balrog	sorry :D	Mar 27 19:25
schestowitz	Not yet	Mar 27 19:25
MinceR	yes, i know, the fanboys won't ever shut up	Mar 27 19:25
schestowitz	Microsoft might still be harrassing them	Mar 27 19:25
Balrog	they will have to adapt as linux becomes more prevalent though	Mar 27 19:25
schestowitz	PJ thinks so	Mar 27 19:25
schestowitz	She wrote about it tofay	Mar 27 19:25
Balrog	and I don't see how that would be hard	Mar 27 19:25
MinceR	in fact, i almost wrote "i wish the apple fanboys shut up"	Mar 27 19:25
schestowitz	In Groklaw..	Mar 27 19:25
schestowitz	lawsuits by proxy	Mar 27 19:26
MinceR	but then i realized there's a lot more to apple than marketing and obnoxious cultists	Mar 27 19:26
wispygalaxy	sco, roy	Mar 27 19:26
MinceR	there's the push for DRM and sw patents	Mar 27 19:26
wispygalaxy	bad apple	Mar 27 19:26
schestowitz	wispygalaxy: not just SCO	Mar 27 19:26
MinceR	there's the patent issues and the constant stream of FUD	Mar 27 19:26
schestowitz	They also told publishers to sue Google pretty much	Mar 27 19:26
wispygalaxy	poor tomtom!	Mar 27 19:26
schestowitz	Some of this is done openly	Mar 27 19:26
schestowitz	Some is less subtle	Mar 27 19:26
wispygalaxy	dont hurt google	Mar 27 19:27
Balrog	apple told publishers to sue google? Apple partners with google for a lot of things	Mar 27 19:27
schestowitz	Microsoft mode of operation is still the same	Mar 27 19:27
schestowitz	Run by ne-gangsters at the top	Mar 27 19:27
Balrog	or is that MS?	Mar 27 19:27
MinceR	Balrog: i doubt that adapting is compatible with the apple culture	Mar 27 19:27
MinceR	maybe after jobs finally dies	Mar 27 19:27
schestowitz	[H]omer would know	Mar 27 19:27
MinceR	but then apple will probably follow	Mar 27 19:27
Balrog	of course it is...why did they put Xorg into 10.3?	Mar 27 19:27
Balrog	(yes, it's an addon, but before 10.3 there was no decent Xorg)	Mar 27 19:27
MinceR	yay, it's an addon no self-respecting apple fanboy would touch	Mar 27 19:28
MinceR	since it's not the holy osx gui	Mar 27 19:28
Balrog	I touch it when I need to	Mar 27 19:28
wispygalaxy	what's up with aqua	Mar 27 19:28
Balrog	the OS X gui isn't bad, when you start programming it	Mar 27 19:28
Balrog	if you don't want to touch OS X, look at GNUStep and Etoile OS	Mar 27 19:28
MinceR	i think we've already discussed why the bad can't be programmed out of it :>	Mar 27 19:28
Balrog	wispygalaxy: MinceR wants such annoying things as focus-follows-mouse	Mar 27 19:29
MinceR	i've looked at GNUstep and i prefer KDE	Mar 27 19:29
Balrog	things like that drive me crazy	Mar 27 19:29
MinceR	i've never heard of etoile OS	Mar 27 19:29
wispygalaxy	haha balrog	Mar 27 19:29
wispygalaxy	kde FTW!	Mar 27 19:29
MinceR	Balrog: yes, please tell everyone how they should use their GUI	Mar 27 19:29
Balrog	it's a layer on top of GNUStep	Mar 27 19:29
MinceR	after all, that's what apple does	Mar 27 19:29
MinceR	and above all the fanboys	Mar 27 19:29
Balrog	MinceR: please tell companies to put a feature in that < 0.01% of users will use	Mar 27 19:30
MinceR	i don't need companies to do that	Mar 27 19:30
wispygalaxy	there should be as much choice as possible for people who care about it	Mar 27 19:30
MinceR	there's a great community that does just that	Mar 27 19:30
Balrog	if they did that for all features requested, could would be so bloated	Mar 27 19:30
Balrog	or ask a foss project	Mar 27 19:30
MinceR	you know, the sort of people whose work you despise	Mar 27 19:30
schestowitz	Fujitsu staff clash with bosses over pay freeze < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009... >	Mar 27 19:30
MinceR	and whose work apple rips off and sells to you for lots of money	Mar 27 19:30
Balrog	I just had a problem with a foss project today ... their ogg support is broken and they don't want to fix it	Mar 27 19:30
MinceR	and then whom apple tries to prevent from doing that work in the future	Mar 27 19:31
Balrog	they say it's deprecated and use MKV but I need ogg	Mar 27 19:31
Balrog	sounds like what you're talking about Apple ... in a foss project	Mar 27 19:31
wispygalaxy	roy, all firms should know that messing with pay is a no-no. if a company freezes dividends, that will make stockholders very angry	Mar 27 19:32
Balrog	heh	Mar 27 19:32
wispygalaxy	im playing a stockholder game in my investment banking class, and the manual says don't f*ck with dividends	Mar 27 19:33
trmanco	http://digg.com/linux_unix/Wine_1_1_18	Mar 27 19:33
Balrog	KDE crashes a lot for me, unfortunately	Mar 27 19:33
Balrog	even 4.2	Mar 27 19:33
wispygalaxy	uh oh!	Mar 27 19:33
Balrog	XFCE and GNOME are stable	Mar 27 19:33
wispygalaxy	well, im on 3.5 right now	Mar 27 19:33
Balrog	I don't like 3.x :(	Mar 27 19:33
Balrog	rather have gnome	Mar 27 19:33
wispygalaxy	but i want to use 4.2... it's pretty! :D	Mar 27 19:33
wispygalaxy	thanks tony	Mar 27 19:34
Balrog	yeah, pretty, like vista :P	Mar 27 19:34
wispygalaxy	you can customize it though!	Mar 27 19:34
schestowitz	wispygalaxy: the manual says "f*ck"?	Mar 27 19:34
wispygalaxy	no haha	Mar 27 19:34
wispygalaxy	im paraphrasing	Mar 27 19:35
schestowitz	Very much so, I'm sure	Mar 27 19:35
MinceR	if stockholders had a clue, they'd know that dividends don't really matter	Mar 27 19:35
wispygalaxy	the manual is written by a boring professor, nuff said	Mar 27 19:35
schestowitz	trmanco: watch how one of the PR drones submit the same thing and makes FP	Mar 27 19:36
wispygalaxy	capital gains > dividends	Mar 27 19:36
trmanco	schestowitz, yeah, I'll be waiting	Mar 27 19:36
wispygalaxy	who is the PR drone?	Mar 27 19:36
trmanco	but I hope mine makes the frontpage	Mar 27 19:36
MinceR	i thought they were equal :)	Mar 27 19:36
wispygalaxy	capital gains are the changes in stock price, dividends are income	Mar 27 19:36
MinceR	yes	Mar 27 19:37
wispygalaxy	they are taxed differently	Mar 27 19:37
MinceR	i meant that it doesn't matter which way you profit	Mar 27 19:37
MinceR	oh, taxes might change the game	Mar 27 19:37
wispygalaxy	its better to have capital gains since they are usually taxed at a lower rate (not at the income tax level)	Mar 27 19:37

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 27th, 2009 - Part 2

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