IRC Log for June 7th, 2008

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2008-06-08 10:05:53 UTC
Modified: 2008-06-08 10:05:53 UTC

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ZiggyFish	good morning	Jun 07 01:53
tessier_	morning	Jun 07 01:54
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schestowitz	OK, I'm back. Catching up. Welcome, zoobab.	Jun 07 03:41
schestowitz	PJ just wrote (about Acer): "Now if only they'd use a different distro, like any Debian flavor that has not done a deal with Microsoft, I'd buy one in a New York minute." What distro will Acer use? I thiink it was using Ubuntu last year.	Jun 07 04:17
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: I read about that the other day.	Jun 07 04:31
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: can't remember which distribution though	Jun 07 04:31
schestowitz	Me too, but did they...	Jun 07 04:31
schestowitz	Oh.	Jun 07 04:31
schestowitz	Well, you beat me to it Same here. PJ seems to suggest she knows the distro, but the article she cites says nothing about it.,	Jun 07 04:32
schestowitz	Also found a while ago: ""We have shifted towards Linux because of Microsoft," he said. "Microsoft has a lot of power and it is going to be difficult, but we will be working hard to develop the Linux market."" ( http://www.pcretailmag.com/... )	Jun 07 04:32
ZiggyFish_laptop	just did a quick google, and http://www.linux-laptop.ne... may help	Jun 07 04:32
schestowitz	I see. But this product line should be new.	Jun 07 04:33
schestowitz	In Romania they did Linpus, which is good for average users.	Jun 07 04:33
schestowitz	I know this from Beranger. In Malaysia (or another part of Asia) they did Ubuntu... and other places too. Their CEO hares Vista with passion.	Jun 07 04:34
ZiggyFish_laptop	AcerXC5822. runs Ubuntu<http://www.geekzone.co.nz/fre... 15-JAN-2008 22:43	Jun 07 04:35
schestowitz	January though.	Jun 07 04:36
schestowitz	SO what's PJ on about. They wouldn't do Xandros and I never saw them doing SuSE.	Jun 07 04:36
ZiggyFish_laptop	mm	Jun 07 04:37
ZiggyFish_laptop	http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/06... - 3rd June 2008 12:34 GMT, but doesn't specify, what distro though	Jun 07 04:38
ZiggyFish_laptop	give me a second, need to do more deeper research	Jun 07 04:38
schestowitz	It's important to ensure that Ballnux never becomes a de facto choice. Acer's new divorce could open the floodgates to more just as Dell's opening to Linux (last year) led to almost every OEM doing the same. Taking the wind off the SLED sales is important.	Jun 07 04:39
ZiggyFish_laptop	Acer has just announced their new 8.9" Aspire One ultraportable laptop. With a starting price of just $379, configurations include an Intel Atom processor, up to 1GB of RAM and either 8GB of flash storage or an 80GB hard drive as well as a choice between Linpus Linux Lite and Windows XP. Nothing here is out of the ordinary for this new class of laptops except its competitive price and that future iterations are planne	Jun 07 04:40
ZiggyFish_laptop	d with 3G data support—yes, your computer may finally replace your smartphone. Read on for more details:	Jun 07 04:40
schestowitz	Just in: another Microsoft product -- dead. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13577_3... According to Mary Jo, we'll see more of that.	Jun 07 04:41
schestowitz	Good	Jun 07 04:41
ZiggyFish_laptop	what was that service about anyway	Jun 07 04:42
schestowitz	When is this from? Linpus is a derivatives of...? I'm not sure.	Jun 07 04:42
ZiggyFish_laptop	mm	Jun 07 04:42
schestowitz	Windows Live Expo. Never heard of it? Me neither. Well, probably won't hear about it again.	Jun 07 04:42
moparx	Linpus GNU/Linux is a Fedora based desktop GNU/Linux distribution	Jun 07 04:42
moparx	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linpus	Jun 07 04:42
ZiggyFish_laptop	http://gizmodo.com/5012589/acer-aspire-one-al... - 9:22 AM on Tue Jun 3 2008	Jun 07 04:43
schestowitz	Thanks, moparx	Jun 07 04:43
moparx	no problem :)	Jun 07 04:44
schestowitz	Microsoft Live appears to be collapsing. This is the 3rd service that will sleep with the fishes... in a matter of a fortnight.	Jun 07 04:44
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: apparently their removeing some of the xbox live games too	Jun 07 04:45
schestowitz	Microsoft /NEEDS/ Live. It's the future. It's where it heading if it wants to keep up with Google and Linux clouds. Live Office has been a disaster for over a year (I have many links) and now the Icahn Bully is trying desperately to make a full takeover of Yahoo!	Jun 07 04:45
ZiggyFish_laptop	let me find a link	Jun 07 04:46
schestowitz	Yes, they do.	Jun 07 04:46
schestowitz	XBox and Zune have serious problems too.	Jun 07 04:46
schestowitz	Ballmer joked about them last month.	Jun 07 04:46
schestowitz	He called them "funny products"	Jun 07 04:46
schestowitz	XBox is already thrown off some shelves in some cities.	Jun 07 04:47
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: is that because everyone laughs at them?	Jun 07 04:47
schestowitz	In India and reportedly in AU too (Microsoft tried to deny it)	Jun 07 04:47
schestowitz	No, Ballmer just said that they can't figure out how to make money from these products. Like the Web division, these lose $billiobs.	Jun 07 04:47
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: don't know about Australia (never really looked).	Jun 07 04:47
schestowitz	Ending office monopoly is going for Microsoft's jugular. Windows is already selling for as little as $18, so they try to tax Linux.	Jun 07 04:48
ZiggyFish_laptop	http://chris.pirillo.com/20...	Jun 07 04:48
schestowitz	Apple is hardly a threat to Microsoft because they sell Office, they hold Apple shares and the prices they can compete with. There's also cross-licensing.	Jun 07 04:49
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: Something chris says I agree with. but a lot of the time. he is wrong	Jun 07 04:50
schestowitz	Yesterday Microsoft complained about the GUI (XBox Live) and there's nothing new coming. In fact, last year it's reported that about 15% (at the least) of the XBox workforce left the company (including the leader). Same goes for Zune and Vista's key people depart also.	Jun 07 04:50
ZiggyFish_laptop	he's a big Mac fan. He's had a few rants about Vista	Jun 07 04:51
schestowitz	I had an argument with Chris recently because he sort of refuses to believe that Microsoft deserved the Iowa fines.	Jun 07 04:51
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: he is one of those people who aren't open minded (but he thinks he is)	Jun 07 04:52
schestowitz	I don't know him well enough. It's a shame that he's not a *NIX man	Jun 07 04:53
schestowitz	He tries though. He joined us in the wordpress developers list a few years back and he's getting 'into it'.	Jun 07 04:53
ZiggyFish_laptop	yeah.	Jun 07 04:53
ZiggyFish_laptop	Wine's getting very close to 1.0 status	Jun 07 04:54
ZiggyFish_laptop	today released 1.0rc4	Jun 07 04:54
schestowitz	Well, it's a tagging bump, but not much more of a technical milestone.	Jun 07 04:54
schestowitz	Will they have 1..0rc49? You know, like the numbers they have had below 1.0? [sarcasm]	Jun 07 04:55
ZiggyFish_laptop	apparently they are planing on releasing it on it's birthday	Jun 07 04:55
schestowitz	15?	Jun 07 04:55
ZiggyFish_laptop	yeah, think so	Jun 07 04:55
schestowitz	Microsoft killed Corel Linux	Jun 07 04:56
schestowitz	I didn't follow any of that at the time, but I'm learning what happened. Novell 0.9	Jun 07 04:56
ZiggyFish_laptop	it's one of my feeds, i get	Jun 07 04:57
schestowitz	Watch the bullies: http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-...	Jun 07 04:58
ZiggyFish_laptop	Alexandre stated back in October 2007 that he knew of no 1.0 release blockers even then, and suggested we pick Wine's 15th anniversary for the actual date. Depending on how you look at it, there are several possible birthdays for Wine, mainly:	Jun 07 04:58
ZiggyFish_laptop	Given that the exact birthday is a bit fuzzy, we'll simply continue with our normal biweekly release dates. That puts the 1.0 release at June 6th if it's ready by then, or June 20th or July 4th if it's not.	Jun 07 04:58
schestowitz	Ballmer: I errr... don't know this man... yeah, we chatted. We said many times we would start a proxy fight, but really... man! We don't know this man... "he's independent"	Jun 07 04:58
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schestowitz	Hey, 'Dougman'?	Jun 07 04:59
ZiggyFish_laptop	I think Icahn, is going to be looking for a new job soon. Better send him the paper ;)	Jun 07 05:00
schestowitz	They should unleash the secret services on people like him. It's the modern-day mafia but with more wealth.	Jun 07 05:02
ZiggyFish_laptop	http://news.cnet.com/Security-Bit... - Security Bites Podcast: Mozilla's 'Human Shield' on Firefox 3	Jun 07 05:06
ZiggyFish_laptop	this shows you how much Net Applications is biased toward microsoft.	Jun 07 05:11
schestowitz	By Human Shield I thought it would say something about blocking Microsoft from pulling a Novell against FF	Jun 07 05:12
ZiggyFish_laptop	net applications = Firefox accounts for 18.4%	Jun 07 05:12
schestowitz	Microsoft already has a sort of insider int here (Snyder)	Jun 07 05:12
ZiggyFish_laptop	w3schools = 39.1%	Jun 07 05:12
schestowitz	It's probably more	Jun 07 05:12
ZiggyFish_laptop	xitimonitor = 28 %	Jun 07 05:12
schestowitz	You know why? Because of all those Win32/IE zombie running rampant.	Jun 07 05:13
schestowitz	In BoycottNovell FF is something like 70%. Let me check.	Jun 07 05:13
schestowitz	I flush logs every night though. Just graphs remain.	Jun 07 05:13
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: lol	Jun 07 05:14
ZiggyFish_laptop	www.safalra.com, 52% Gecko based	Jun 07 05:14
ZiggyFish_laptop	firefox = Geko based	Jun 07 05:14
schestowitz	This month in BN.com FF has 60.2 %	Jun 07 05:14
ZiggyFish_laptop	same site 40% for IE, lol	Jun 07 05:15
schestowitz	Linux: 44.7 %	Jun 07 05:15
schestowitz	More than Windows! :-)	Jun 07 05:15
ZiggyFish_laptop	nice	Jun 07 05:15
dsmith_	roy, yes that was me	Jun 07 05:15
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: is that unique visits though?	Jun 07 05:15
schestowitz	Lenovo: "Buy Microsoft. Which will it be? Microsoft Windows or Microsoft Linux?"	Jun 07 05:15
schestowitz	No, not unique, hit based	Jun 07 05:16
ZiggyFish_laptop	oh	Jun 07 05:16
schestowitz	What's why stats can be so meaningless and be gamed.	Jun 07 05:16
schestowitz	Microsoft /LOVES/ playing with stats to underplay Linux presence.	Jun 07 05:16
ZiggyFish_laptop	I wonder if Net Applications is unique based	Jun 07 05:17
dsmith_	lalalla, doesn't understand	Jun 07 05:17
dsmith_	I did not mention Dell, but I am aware of it. perhaps I do not want a Dell?	Jun 07 05:18
schestowitz	It's the site they sample (population) that count	Jun 07 05:18
ZiggyFish_laptop	because if it isn't, and i assume Microsoft would be a big part of the stats.	Jun 07 05:18
schestowitz	Oh, and weighting.	Jun 07 05:18
dsmith_	were back to square one again, no choice in OS	Jun 07 05:18
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schestowitz	Hypothetical scenario: take MSN.com, take some 1000 mom-and-pop site, concatenate and then parse. What will you get?	Jun 07 05:19
schestowitz	Why don't they just sell frakin' hardware? You know what Microsoft did? It called them 'naked' PCs. The demonisation.	Jun 07 05:20
dsmith_	naked, lol	Jun 07 05:22
schestowitz	Not open	Jun 07 05:22
dsmith_	get this they still sales the workstations with no OS	Jun 07 05:23
schestowitz	Not liberated.	Jun 07 05:23
dsmith_	go figure	Jun 07 05:23
schestowitz	Naked.	Jun 07 05:23
dsmith_	http://shop...	Jun 07 05:23
schestowitz	It then played police and insisted that if people don't have an O/S preinstalled, they are criminals, pirates, thieves. When Wal-Mart sells Linux, it then need to ensure people keep it on the system. Microsoft Police demands this.	Jun 07 05:23
schestowitz	Buy your O/S-free PC now.... don't forget to buy a bathing suit for it, at the least.	Jun 07 05:23
ZiggyFish_laptop	that's one of the big things windows has for them, venders	Jun 07 05:24
ZiggyFish_laptop	my local, mall doesn't have a single linux PC/laptop (2 floors).	Jun 07 05:25
schestowitz	dsmith, why does it say "_Genuine_ Windows Vista Business"?	Jun 07 05:26
dsmith_	on the link?	Jun 07 05:26
ZiggyFish_laptop	and there is 6 shops that sell computers	Jun 07 05:27
schestowitz	Dunno. I need to enable JS to click on it to open.	Jun 07 05:27
dsmith_	Operating system12	Jun 07 05:27
dsmith_	DOS (No Software Preloaded)	Jun 07 05:27
dsmith_	D10 Dos OS, SATA and SAS drive version	Jun 07 05:28
ZiggyFish_laptop	sorry nine shops	Jun 07 05:28
schestowitz	Genuine = nice way of making you feel special. ("less nagware, despite remote switch")	Jun 07 05:28
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: windows is nagware. Less would = no windows :P	Jun 07 05:29
schestowitz	Vista is a new breed though. Ask those who know the internals.	Jun 07 05:30
ZiggyFish_laptop	schestowitz: would I be asking kids, or monkeys	Jun 07 05:30
schestowitz	The Microsoft (MSN) butterfly flew too close to the sun. They got greedy. If they build it, will people come?	Jun 07 05:31
*dsmith_ looks over ACER's website		Jun 07 05:31
schestowitz	Acer seems to be the 'next Asus' (in terms of strategy)	Jun 07 05:33
dsmith_	horrible, search function. It never loaded, and when one clicks on laptops it gives 20 different versions to choose from, how useless	Jun 07 05:36
ZiggyFish_laptop	brb	Jun 07 05:38
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dsmith_	seems they offer a 5710z ubuntu laptop, but its for overseas customers.	Jun 07 05:40
dsmith_	I cannnot find linux on thier site at all	Jun 07 05:40
schestowitz	Windows Vista gives 9 options. :-)	Jun 07 05:40
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ZiggyFish	back	Jun 07 05:43
dsmith_	http://www.engadget.com/200...	Jun 07 05:45
schestowitz	looks	Jun 07 05:47
schestowitz	I wonder how Microsoft will respond to this (rest assure, they'll try). Jim Allchin, Microsoft: "I feel we are much too smug in dealing with Novell. Perhaps they didn’t hurt us in DOS yet — but it’s not because of product or their trying. It’s because ____we already had the OEMs wrapped up.____"	Jun 07 05:48
ZiggyFish	nice article	Jun 07 05:51
ZiggyFish	commical	Jun 07 05:51
schestowitz	Guys, should we maybe assemble a table of Ballnux free OEMs?	Jun 07 05:58
schestowitz	As in... advise people on where to purchase Linux while avoiding the Microsoft patent tax?	Jun 07 05:59
ZiggyFish	Telstra in Australia is a very very big telco (it was once own by the government previously). and Telstra bid to build the Federal Government's $4.7 billion funded national broadband network (NBN).	Jun 07 06:00
dsmith_	sure.	Jun 07 06:00
dsmith_	there are a few out there	Jun 07 06:00
ZiggyFish	But both Internode and Acer are looking at open source for this new network	Jun 07 06:00
schestowitz	Tesco sells eSys Ubuntu boxes now. 6.04, IIRC (LTS)	Jun 07 06:00
ZiggyFish	http://www.itnews.com.au/News/...	Jun 07 06:01
schestowitz	I'm not sure about few, esp. if you consider small shops. LXer has a database.	Jun 07 06:01
schestowitz	If you can present offers and say "vendor X offers distribution Y, but..."	Jun 07 06:01
schestowitz	You can reward those which steer away from the Ballnuxes.	Jun 07 06:02
dsmith_	eracks being one, system76, emperorlinux, psystar	Jun 07 06:02
dsmith_	psystar offers MAc as well	Jun 07 06:02
dsmith_	http://www.psystar.com/index.php...	Jun 07 06:03
schestowitz	Yes, Paystar is doing something positive by fighting hardware lockin too	Jun 07 06:03
dsmith_	one can see the OS costs	Jun 07 06:03
schestowitz	Good article, ZF. Thanks, I'll use it later.	Jun 07 06:04
ZiggyFish	there is another article assicoated with that as well. let me find the link	Jun 07 06:05
ZiggyFish	http://www.itnews.com.au/News/News... - Report: Consumers to pay 15 percent more for Telstra built network	Jun 07 06:05
schestowitz	It's the Acer part which is new to me. The SF.net mirror I saw before.	Jun 07 06:07
schestowitz	I know Telstra because of iTWire	Jun 07 06:07
schestowitz	Speaking of sf.net: http://sourceforge.net/community/wp... (IMG)	Jun 07 06:08
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: sponsored by...	Jun 07 06:09
ZiggyFish	Microsoft	Jun 07 06:09
schestowitz	Yes, but it used to be just MS, then MS and O'Reilly.	Jun 07 06:09
schestowitz	I'm going to post somehting about this later.	Jun 07 06:10
schestowitz	And this from Bruce Perens: http://technocrat.net/d/200... (Microsoft Protests Linux on Phoenix Mars Mission - Future Mars Probe Will Run Windows)	Jun 07 06:10
dsmith_	lmfao	Jun 07 06:11
schestowitz	I'm telling you, it's like a cult. Maybe that's why they spend millions on lobbying.	Jun 07 06:12
schestowitz	I was in Washington a couple of years ago and they have that space museum, so it made me think immediately: MS lobbyists (see article from yesterday) = Washington + NASA = Windows in space.	Jun 07 06:13
dsmith_	lol	Jun 07 06:13
dsmith_	air & Space meuseum is nice	Jun 07 06:14
*tessier loves the Aie & Space Museum		Jun 07 06:14
tessier	One of my favorite places.	Jun 07 06:14
schestowitz	Microsoft PRESS RELEASE, for IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Microsoft and NASA Announce Collaboration on Space Exploration with ActiveX and Zune Technologies.	Jun 07 06:14
schestowitz	"look ma! Windows is so stable they even run it in space!!!11111"	Jun 07 06:15
schestowitz	It's a nice museum. very memorable.	Jun 07 06:15
schestowitz	Then again, you fly, so it means more to you.	Jun 07 06:16
dsmith_	if MS is protesting about phoenix lander, they should send ballmer to swap it out	Jun 07 06:16
schestowitz	I'll tell you what. Make them a deal.	Jun 07 06:17
schestowitz	Put Ballmer on the next shipment to Mars.	Jun 07 06:17
tessier	Speaking of flying, I recently uploaded some of my flying videos: http://youtube.com/watch?v=4YhJe...	Jun 07 06:17
schestowitz	watching	Jun 07 06:17
dsmith_	pilot?	Jun 07 06:18
dsmith_	so am I	Jun 07 06:18
dsmith_	haha	Jun 07 06:18
dsmith_	Duchess thats an old twin	Jun 07 06:20
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ZiggyFish	nice	Jun 07 06:24
schestowitz	Reminded me of something I saw earlier, for strange reasons you can guess: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/...	Jun 07 06:26
tessier	Scheier is my hero	Jun 07 06:27
schestowitz	Oh, and that story from last week about the guy with a Transformers t-shirt being refused when it comes to boarding the place and risking arrest (the t-shirt had robots on it gasp)	Jun 07 06:27
dsmith_	yea	Jun 07 06:29
dsmith_	tessier youa CFi?	Jun 07 06:30
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dsmith_	http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl... http://developers.slashdot.org/ar... interesting links..	Jun 07 06:33
dsmith_	Restart reactor to complete software installation. Yes/No?	Jun 07 06:33
schestowitz	Everyone knows that people with bombs or schemes are boarding planes with t-shirts, esp. ones with violent imagery on them. You know, like kids' shows. rolls eyes	Jun 07 06:33
dsmith_	lol	Jun 07 06:33
schestowitz	Old power plants move from obscure proprietary code to Linux (and Windows), at least in the UK. There was an article about it last week	Jun 07 06:35
schestowitz	WGA server goes down -> blackout	Jun 07 06:35
dsmith_	Linux may not be ready for the desktop, but it is ready for the surface of Mars.	Jun 07 06:35
schestowitz	"Ready for the Desktop" meme. Where can I buy the t-shirt (and is it airport-'safe'?)	Jun 07 06:36
tessier	dsmith_: Not yet but I'm working on it.	Jun 07 06:53
dsmith_	ahhh, I have yet to finish my private..	Jun 07 06:53
dsmith_	I am have been slowly trying ti finish but work s keeps getting in my way	Jun 07 06:54
dsmith_	~100 hrs	Jun 07 06:54
tessier	I have nearly a thousand hours.	Jun 07 06:54
dsmith_	ahhh sweet	Jun 07 06:54
dsmith_	ever been to oshkosh?	Jun 07 06:54
tessier	No but I've always wanted to. But I'm in San Diego. That's a long flight.	Jun 07 06:55
tessier	And of course if I go to Oshkosh I want to fly myself there.	Jun 07 06:55
tessier	Maybe I'll fly to Indiana to visit my mom and rent a plane from there	Jun 07 06:56
schestowitz	Microsoft is getting ripped here: http://blog.milkingthegnu.org/200...	Jun 07 07:03
ZiggyFish	have you guys moved over to the US, moved over to 3G network yet	Jun 07 07:09
ZiggyFish	Australia is on migrating to the NextG network slowly. We now can't at all get the CDMA network.	Jun 07 07:10
dsmith_	dunno	Jun 07 07:10
ZiggyFish	Telstra, stopped the CDMA network I think last month (I believe)	Jun 07 07:11
ZiggyFish	Telstra stopped, on 03 May	Jun 07 07:13
ZiggyFish	back	Jun 07 07:20
schestowitz	Someone seems to have just threatened a Microsoft Munchkin.	Jun 07 07:25
schestowitz	I caught up with COLA, which has the message:	Jun 07 07:25
tessier	http://www.electronista.com/artic... Neato	Jun 07 07:25
schestowitz	"Promise to Flatfish [...] Gary Stewart, AKA Moshe Goldfarb and countless others. Your libelous speeches toward Linux advocacy have been noticed. You can run, but you can't hide. See you in court." There are some new laws in the EU against AstroTurfing. They came into effect May 26th.	Jun 07 07:26
schestowitz	Runs Linux, IIRC, tessier. Or something along those lines. Sony puts Linux in its TV sets.	Jun 07 07:26
tessier	Yep	Jun 07 07:27
tessier	I have a friend who works for Sony and does the Linux stuff in the TV sets. :)	Jun 07 07:27
PetoKraus	:)	Jun 07 07:27
tessier	The EEE stuff runs Xandros	Jun 07 07:27
tessier	I have an EEE PC which I carry in the trunk of my car all the time.	Jun 07 07:27
PetoKraus	wasn't the... linux in PS3's embedded somewhere?	Jun 07 07:27
schestowitz	The Xandros guy told me they don't pay royalties	Jun 07 07:27
PetoKraus	because we removed the hard drive and it still booted into the linux	Jun 07 07:27
schestowitz	Actually, he just said they were not tied to the Microsoft dea	Jun 07 07:27
schestowitz	deal	Jun 07 07:27
schestowitz	PS2 also, I hear...	Jun 07 07:28
tessier	schestowitz: Who is that threatening to sue?	Jun 07 07:28
schestowitz	I don't know. He used Tor.	Jun 07 07:28
tessier	In all of the years of cola and lawsuits I have never heard of a single suit actually being filed	Jun 07 07:28
schestowitz	I got an E-mail about a month ago. Someone wants him in jail	Jun 07 07:28
schestowitz	.Recently, the Microsoft trolls have gone as far as intimidation, not just smears	Jun 07 07:29
schestowitz	It's getting ugly and for all I can tell they try to gag advocates.	Jun 07 07:29
tessier	You think it's MS behind it? Or just disaffected windows nerds?	Jun 07 07:30
schestowitz	Microsoft +ecosystem, IMHO. Lots of people depend on MS dominance.	Jun 07 07:31
tessier	But do the people who depend on MS dominance really have time to sit in cola and make waves with Linux advocates who are just preaching to the choir?	Jun 07 07:31
schestowitz	Nessunu (he's a professor by the way) reckons that only DFS is an independent Windows developers and the others are the fruits of corporate corruption.	Jun 07 07:32
tessier	Anyone with any real business sense such that they depend on MS would know cola is pointless	Jun 07 07:32
schestowitz	Remember that they operate outside COLA too.	Jun 07 07:32
tessier	But they sure seem to spend a lot of time on cola	Jun 07 07:33
tessier	And why spend any time on it at all? They aren't having one lick of effect on anything	Jun 07 07:33
schestowitz	The stuff in COLA gets indexed and seen.	Jun 07 07:33
schestowitz	Go to Google, type in 'microsoft briberies'. See what you get in the results.	Jun 07 07:34
dsmith_	1,760 results	Jun 07 07:35
schestowitz	What's in page 1?	Jun 07 07:35
dsmith_	yours	Jun 07 07:36
dsmith_	hah	Jun 07 07:36
dsmith_	actually 96 when doing "micorsoft briberies"	Jun 07 07:36
tessier	I never see stuff on usenet turn up in google searches unless I specifically search groups.google.com	Jun 07 07:42
schestowitz	They began merging these searches a while ago (no idea as to why) and there are USENET mirrors (static HTML) as wwell.	Jun 07 07:44
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ZiggyFish	Due to a problem in the way Apache binds itself to port 80 on Windows machines allows the PHP environment running under Apache to gain access to the information being sent to port 80, which in turn can be leveraged to preform man-in-the-middle attacks. ROLF	Jun 07 08:44
schestowitz	URL?	Jun 07 08:44
ZiggyFish	http://www.securiteam.com/too...	Jun 07 08:45
schestowitz	Windows was never designed for a networked (let alone multi-user) environment. Proof here: http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-micros...	Jun 07 08:46
ZiggyFish	nice, Microsoft Plans Seven Security Fixes Next Week <http://www.informationweek....	Jun 07 08:54
ZiggyFish	The "critical" flaws affect Bluetooth and DirectX in certain versions of Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Internet Explorer. The "critical" designation typically means an attack could exploit the vulnerability to execute malicious code remotely on an affected system.	Jun 07 08:54
ZiggyFish	The "important" flaws affect Windows Internet Name Service, Active Directory, and Pragmatic General Multicast. The WINS issue could allow for user privilege elevation, while the Active Directory and PGM vulnerabilities could allow a denial-of-service attack.	Jun 07 08:54
ZiggyFish	The "important" flaw affects a Windows registry Kill Bit, which is used to disable ActiveX controls. Microsoft says the vulnerability could lead to remote code execution, but it apparently believes mitigating factors make this vulnerability less dangerous.	Jun 07 08:54
ZiggyFish	Microsoft will release more specific information about the vulnerabilities next week.	Jun 07 08:54
PetoKraus	when microsoft believes a vulnerability is not dangerous because of obstacles in the way	Jun 07 08:59
PetoKraus	WRONG	Jun 07 08:59
PetoKraus	take Xbox as an example...	Jun 07 08:59
schestowitz	How so?	Jun 07 09:04
PetoKraus	well, they made security system	Jun 07 09:06
PetoKraus	to disable people from booting linux/playing copied games	Jun 07 09:06
PetoKraus	trough some bad design decisions, low budget and hurry it was broken	Jun 07 09:06
PetoKraus	and their fixes were - not to patch the hole, but to build a fence around it...	Jun 07 09:06
PetoKraus	there was a nice article how they did it	Jun 07 09:07
PetoKraus	here: http://www.xbox-linux.org/wiki/17_Mista...	Jun 07 09:07
PetoKraus	and i am gonna go to the forest	Jun 07 09:08
PetoKraus	see you tomorrow	Jun 07 09:08
schestowitz	Heh. Yeah, I remember.	Jun 07 09:18
schestowitz	They blocked Linux. That, to Microsoft at least, is a 'security' breach.	Jun 07 09:18
schestowitz	40% of the world's PCs are zombies? Na, that's peanuts, as long as they run Windows. A few hackers running Linux on the XBox? OMG! Take cover!!!!11111	Jun 07 09:19
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: it more of a bottom line breach for Microsoft, then a security	Jun 07 09:19
schestowitz	Financial security.	Jun 07 09:19
ZiggyFish	lol	Jun 07 09:20
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ZiggyFish	schestowitz: have you read this http://seattlepi.nwsou... - Icahn pushes Yahoo to sell to Microsoft	Jun 07 09:47
ZiggyFish	SAN FRANCISCO -- Billionaire investor Carl Icahn ratcheted up the pressure on Yahoo Inc. Friday, saying that the Web portal should sell itself to Microsoft Corp. for $49.5 billion, which is $2 billion more than what had been offered before negotiations between the two technology titans collapsed last month.	Jun 07 09:47
schestowitz	[speculation] So Microsoft still wants Yahoo! but it wants to stage this differently, having history tell that Yahoo was the one wooing Microsoft.	Jun 07 09:50
ZiggyFish	50 B is a lot of money. do you thing Yahoo will sell on that. Even with Microsoft's resources, do they have enough money(considering that microsoft is on a 52 week low ATM)?	Jun 07 09:52
schestowitz	No.	Jun 07 09:54
schestowitz	Microsoft has only about 26 B in the bank.	Jun 07 09:54
schestowitz	For the first time in its history it would need to borrow lots of money, but it's a question of long-term survival, so it hasn't much choice.	Jun 07 09:55
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: that's it. even for a bank to loan that amount, is a big big risk	Jun 07 09:55
ZiggyFish	24 B need to borrow	Jun 07 09:55
ZiggyFish	And AFAIK Yahoo, was looking for that amount anyway.	Jun 07 09:56
schestowitz	Well..	Jun 07 09:59
schestowitz	They need that money for returns to investors.	Jun 07 09:59
ZiggyFish	true	Jun 07 10:00
schestowitz	Still, they ran out of capacity to run themselves independently, the company's market cap sank $30 B in just 3 months (Feb -May) and profit declined in the last report (Windows sales down 24%)	Jun 07 10:01
schestowitz	Wait until they start blaming recession, not Vista (ME2) or ME3 (aka Seven)	Jun 07 10:01
ZiggyFish	If Microsoft takes over Yahoo, it would have to pay employees who subsequently are fired or who leave for "good cause" between two months and two years of salary.	Jun 07 10:09
ZiggyFish	Internal Yahoo documents made public by a lawsuit estimate that the benefit would cost Microsoft around $2.4 billion if a merger were consummated at $35 per share.	Jun 07 10:09
schestowitz	I care less about the money and more about choice.	Jun 07 10:15
schestowitz	If Yahoo is devoured to die along with Microsoft, then all we have is Google (or temporarily Microsoft).	Jun 07 10:15
schestowitz	Yahoo! Engineers + Microsoft Bureaucracy = Rotten Beaver.	Jun 07 10:16
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: you always have ask.com	Jun 07 10:28
zoobab	hi	Jun 07 10:30
ZiggyFish	hi	Jun 07 10:30
schestowitz	Hey Ben.	Jun 07 10:31
zoobab	what's up?	Jun 07 10:31
schestowitz	I've found some stuff about great Microsoft INNOVA~1	Jun 07 10:31
zoobab	we are preparing for the next battle against swpats here	Jun 07 10:31
zoobab	the French presidency wants a central court	Jun 07 10:32
schestowitz	Microsoft’s brainwave is called Device Manners Policy (DMP) and it could ensure that if a sign says “No photography allowe[d]”, then your camera or your phone’s camera won’t work. ( http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/0... )	Jun 07 10:32
schestowitz	Recipe for disaster	Jun 07 10:32
zoobab	of course	Jun 07 10:32
schestowitz	And:http://fringethoughts.wordp... (on ACTA)	Jun 07 10:32
zoobab	but we have the chance to have unanimity in the Counciol	Jun 07 10:32
zoobab	so we have to trigger problems	Jun 07 10:32
schestowitz	French presidency is in Microsoft's pocket	Jun 07 10:32
zoobab	like the fact that we don't have a constitution in Europe	Jun 07 10:32
schestowitz	Literally lodging together.	Jun 07 10:33
zoobab	and judges should be appointed in compliance with constitutional rules	Jun 07 10:33
schestowitz	My background in politics in poor, but I see what you mean.	Jun 07 10:33
zoobab	mine too	Jun 07 10:34
schestowitz	I'm a CS person.	Jun 07 10:34
zoobab	especially in law	Jun 07 10:34
schestowitz	Law: rules money can generate	Jun 07 10:34
zoobab	the good thing is that the more time passes on, the worse it gets with swpats	Jun 07 10:34
schestowitz	Lawyer: position for generation of money from law	Jun 07 10:34
schestowitz	They are passing some in the UK.	Jun 07 10:35
zoobab	just wait five years, it will be a plague in the US	Jun 07 10:35
schestowitz	Finjan down in London, sponsored by Microsoft.	Jun 07 10:35
zoobab	what is Finjan?	Jun 07 10:35
schestowitz	Even in India now, and SA.	Jun 07 10:35
schestowitz	Some silly 'investor' company, something to do with inspecting static code, IIRC.	Jun 07 10:36
schestowitz	I'd have to check. They sue a US company, IIRC.	Jun 07 10:36
zoobab	http://www.finjan.com/Pressrele...	Jun 07 10:36
schestowitz	Same in China, regarding patent plague. The Economist has an article about it. Updegrove and GL cited it.	Jun 07 10:36
schestowitz	look	Jun 07 10:37
zoobab	Finjan is partially owned by Microsoft, which purchased a non-exclusive worldwide license for some Finjan patents last year.	Jun 07 10:37
schestowitz	That's an older press releasee.	Jun 07 10:37
zoobab	url?	Jun 07 10:37
schestowitz	Wait..	Jun 07 10:37
schestowitz	Hers's all I have in my DB: http://boycottnovell.com/index.php?s=finjan	Jun 07 10:38
zoobab	I meants the article of the Economist	Jun 07 10:38
schestowitz	The other problem is Symbian (DLL nonsense)	Jun 07 10:39
zoobab	we are working on it	Jun 07 10:39
zoobab	the problem is to intervene in the case	Jun 07 10:39
schestowitz	http://www.economist.com/business/displayst...	Jun 07 10:40
schestowitz	Do you known Aidan?	Jun 07 10:40
schestowitz	know	Jun 07 10:41
zoobab	Katz?	Jun 07 10:43
schestowitz	Wait, I can't remember. Will look at email...	Jun 07 10:43
zoobab	EFF	Jun 07 10:44
schestowitz	McGuire	Jun 07 10:44
schestowitz	No, FFII coordinator here.	Jun 07 10:44
schestowitz	I don't know him, but he's on the same mailing list.	Jun 07 10:45
zoobab	yes I know him a bit	Jun 07 10:45
zoobab	I meet him once at Eupaco	Jun 07 10:45
zoobab	mostly I know Gavin in the UK	Jun 07 10:45
zoobab	Gavin Hill	Jun 07 10:46
schestowitz	Ah, him too.	Jun 07 10:46
schestowitz	What can one do to help fight swpatents?	Jun 07 10:46
schestowitz	I mean, other than the obvious.	Jun 07 10:46
zoobab	well	Jun 07 10:47
zoobab	I need some people to help collecting daily news	Jun 07 10:48
zoobab	it is a pain in the ass	Jun 07 10:48
zoobab	and we will need help for the new campaign	Jun 07 10:48
zoobab	are you based in the UK?	Jun 07 10:49
schestowitz	On patents, I'm fed by just a few sources (primarily your arsenal) because I focus on other things.	Jun 07 10:49
schestowitz	Yes.	Jun 07 10:49
zoobab	London?	Jun 07 10:49
schestowitz	No, Manchester.	Jun 07 10:49
zoobab	ok	Jun 07 10:49
zoobab	we should met one day	Jun 07 10:49
schestowitz	Matt Lee is also here, but it's probably of no use.	Jun 07 10:49
schestowitz	The FSFE was here a few yeasr back and I met them.	Jun 07 10:50
zoobab	FSFE are doing nothing	Jun 07 10:50
schestowitz	One issue to address less directly is not patents, but the corruption behind them.	Jun 07 10:50
zoobab	at least when it comes to swpats	Jun 07 10:50
schestowitz	The UK is now sort of cracking down on lobbyists.	Jun 07 10:50
schestowitz	They only expose it.	Jun 07 10:51
zoobab	well, it is impossible to get rid of lobbyists	Jun 07 10:51
schestowitz	The US only exposes a mere fraction.	Jun 07 10:51
schestowitz	But... it's a loss cause there.	Jun 07 10:51
zoobab	it is	Jun 07 10:51
zoobab	even Hillary said she is taking money from lobbyists	Jun 07 10:51
schestowitz	And as ZiggyFish might know, his country too (AU) got infected by the swpats virus.	Jun 07 10:51
zoobab	but Obama wants to refuse	Jun 07 10:51
ZiggyFish	schestowitz: url =??	Jun 07 10:52
schestowitz	Really? I haven't followed that.	Jun 07 10:52
zoobab	are you on the list for the ukswpat Symbian case?	Jun 07 10:52
schestowitz	Oh, it's old news, ZF. Been like this for a while, DMCA also.	Jun 07 10:52
schestowitz	Censorship... the whole US bundle.	Jun 07 10:52
schestowitz	No, can you add me? Is it a high-volume list?	Jun 07 10:53
zoobab	no	Jun 07 10:53
zoobab	I will asl	Jun 07 10:53
zoobab	ask	Jun 07 10:53
schestowitz	Nokia is thinking about putting the ** on Symbian and focusing on Linux.	Jun 07 10:53
schestowitz	It denies this in The Register, but the trend seems telling.	Jun 07 10:53
zoobab	do you know elinux.org?	Jun 07 10:54
schestowitz	They also embraced Qt (well, bought it) and mix it with Maemo and GTK	Jun 07 10:54
schestowitz	They want to battle Android and LiMo IMHO	Jun 07 10:54
schestowitz	The domain seems familiar, why?	Jun 07 10:54
zoobab	I saw some slides about smaller kernels	Jun 07 10:55
schestowitz	Does it not exist already?	Jun 07 10:55
zoobab	and I am interested in small kernels because I am fitting openwrt in 2MB routers	Jun 07 10:56
zoobab	well, there are patches for recent 2.6.2x kernels	Jun 07 10:56
schestowitz	There's a Linux that fits on 1.4 MB floppies.	Jun 07 10:56
schestowitz	2.4, I think.	Jun 07 10:56
zoobab	I have router with 2.4.20 on 1MB flash	Jun 07 10:56
zoobab	I have 5 of those	Jun 07 10:56
zoobab	but I don't have time to port openwrt	Jun 07 10:57
schestowitz	Can Vista and MinWin fit a 1MB flash?	Jun 07 10:57
zoobab	100MB	Jun 07 10:57
schestowitz	WinMin?	Jun 07 10:57
zoobab	I heard 54MB for XP slim	Jun 07 10:57
zoobab	stripped down	Jun 07 10:57
schestowitz	With solitaire.com and reedit.exe? :-)	Jun 07 10:57
zoobab	don't know	Jun 07 10:57
schestowitz	solitaire.exe and regedit.exe I meant.	Jun 07 10:57
zoobab	I don't care about windows	Jun 07 10:57
schestowitz	The fast-boot thing and patch kernel without reboot thing seems to have stepped on Bill's patents.	Jun 07 10:58
schestowitz	It was discussed in their mailing llists, I think. Also in Slashdot. They contaminate everything, even low-level stuff.	Jun 07 10:59
zoobab	kexec	Jun 07 10:59
schestowitz	Yes.	Jun 07 10:59
zoobab	I have to try it	Jun 07 10:59
zoobab	I want to use it for xterminals	Jun 07 10:59
zoobab	like you boot a minimal kernel, detect the hardware, and reboot another one	Jun 07 10:59
schestowitz	Just wait until...	Jun 07 10:59
schestowitz	Novell gives {Added Value]^TM with Microsoft-approved Linux kernels.	Jun 07 11:00
schestowitz	That's the plan anyway. Dividing past the GPL with swpats	Jun 07 11:01
zoobab	we should do the same	Jun 07 11:01
zoobab	pile up patents that MS infringes, and ask MS customers to buy a coupon	Jun 07 11:01
schestowitz	Then it would say that only the mythical SUSE kernel (bought from Novell) is 'covered'	Jun 07 11:01
schestowitz	It won't work.	Jun 07 11:01
zoobab	not if you buold a troll company	Jun 07 11:02
zoobab	with 200 patents in ther	Jun 07 11:02
schestowitz	Mhyrvold gets swpats from MS, then attacks. Linux' cost advantage.. gone!	Jun 07 11:02
zoobab	of course	Jun 07 11:02
zoobab	it is a mafia	Jun 07 11:02
schestowitz	in suits	Jun 07 11:02
zoobab	yop	Jun 07 11:02
schestowitz	I fail to think of mitigation means other than awareness or armageddon (see Economist again)	Jun 07 11:03
zoobab	the best for us is product removal from the market	Jun 07 11:04
zoobab	like no Blackberry on the market anymore	Jun 07 11:04
schestowitz	They should make a film: "When Software Met Political Corruption"	Jun 07 11:04
zoobab	and it will happen	Jun 07 11:04
schestowitz	Deterrence? Joe Avergae won't give a S	Jun 07 11:04
zoobab	I am thinking about a European Day against Software Patents	Jun 07 11:04
zoobab	6 of July	Jun 07 11:05
zoobab	of 23 September	Jun 07 11:05
schestowitz	Belgium?>	Jun 07 11:05
schestowitz	Here in the UK you wouldn't have anyone turning up	Jun 07 11:05
zoobab	it is important to put the fire for the french presidency	Jun 07 11:05
schestowitz	They bring brainwash to kids now.	Jun 07 11:05
schestowitz	Microsoft invaded UK education as well. Patents and all...	Jun 07 11:06
zoobab	yes but we brainwash more	Jun 07 11:06
schestowitz	Let me find something...	Jun 07 11:06
zoobab	I have to clean my clothes today	Jun 07 11:07
zoobab	lot of work to do	Jun 07 11:07
schestowitz	OK, I'll catch you later.	Jun 07 11:07
zoobab	btw	Jun 07 11:09
zoobab	http://www.hackerspace.net	Jun 07 11:09
zoobab	you can come	Jun 07 11:09
ZiggyFish	is there an resources on the swpats virus	Jun 07 11:09
schestowitz	What I was going to find is here:	Jun 07 11:09
schestowitz	http://www.microsoft.com/... Basically, it's about Microsoft seeing what's coming (FOSS everywhere) and planning to brainwash kids at school in order to find-tune perceptions.	Jun 07 11:11
schestowitz	ZF, try DigitalMajority for news. I don't know sites with introduction, but watch the FFII video on YoutTube. Wait...	Jun 07 11:12
ZiggyFish	nice	Jun 07 11:12
zoobab	it is always interesting to read MS SEC filings	Jun 07 11:12
zoobab	because they talk about swpats	Jun 07 11:12
schestowitz	I think that's the one:	Jun 07 11:14
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbDfo4q5pw	Jun 07 11:14
schestowitz	They also talk about lowered margins in this one, due to Free software (Linux is named). They warned investors before the last disappointing report.	Jun 07 11:15
*ZiggyFish kicks him self		Jun 07 11:19
ZiggyFish	I was thinking swpats was a computer virus (i.e, a Trojan, like the ones you get on windows).	Jun 07 11:20
schestowitz	Oh.	Jun 07 11:21
ZiggyFish	that's why I wanted a link ;)	Jun 07 11:24
schestowitz	InI can give you a link to a virus too, but it might only work on IE/Win32.	Jun 07 11:30
ZiggyFish	lol	Jun 07 11:33
schestowitz	I've just posted an item about opensuse 11.0	Jun 07 11:35
schestowitz	I wonder how to suppress its adoption on the day it's released. I got attacked when 10.3 came out.	Jun 07 11:36
schestowitz	I ought to do something creative to remind people why to avoid SUSE and then attract attention to it.	Jun 07 11:36
ZiggyFish	yeah, would help, also people can use it in SuSE battles :O	Jun 07 11:38
schestowitz	I think I have an idea. If we could show people, using screenshots for example, that underneath the surface SUSE is identical to other distros, we could then encourage people to steer away from Novell and Microsoft.	Jun 07 11:38
schestowitz	If one reader uses distro X, s/he can take a look at gallry of screenshots from OSuse 11 and then produce an almost identical one. The key message: OSUSE is just a copy of perfectly fine and FREE GNU/Linux dsitros.	Jun 07 11:39
ZiggyFish	yeah, also discuss alternatives (like Red hat Enterprise Linux for enterprise, and ubuntu for normal users).	Jun 07 11:40
schestowitz	See http://gnuman.com/screenshots.html?gid=36	Jun 07 11:41
schestowitz	Unrelated to this, the other day in BN.com a former Novell employee brought this up: http://slashdot.org/comments.p...	Jun 07 11:45
schestowitz	On mormon density at Novell.	Jun 07 11:46
ZiggyFish	lol	Jun 07 11:47
ZiggyFish	SuSE I like th installer	Jun 07 11:48
ZiggyFish	mandrake (when it was called that) 9 has a installer like that	Jun 07 11:49
ZiggyFish	anyway, getting tied, I'm off for the night	Jun 07 11:56
ZiggyFish	see ya	Jun 07 11:56
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martinjh99	Morning all	Jun 07 12:04
schestowitz	Howdy.	Jun 07 12:04
schestowitz	Moments ago we discussed ways of explaining to people why they should steer away from OpenSUSE 11.0	Jun 07 12:05
martinjh99	Morning Roy - Like your website. Interessting times we live in eh...	Jun 07 12:05
schestowitz	It's release very soon and Novell will generate lots of hype	Jun 07 12:05
schestowitz	Thanls.	Jun 07 12:05
martinjh99	I'm going to try the RC in a virtual machine. Have a soft spot for Suse as it was my first Linux distro... 5.1 I think it was...	Jun 07 12:05
martinjh99	Personally going to stick with Kubuntu as my properly installed distro though.	Jun 07 12:06
schestowitz	Novell will use the installer to brag.	Jun 07 12:07
schestowitz	Never mind if it's a one-time shell.	Jun 07 12:07
schestowitz	YaST is another thing, but it's hardly needed most of the time. Isn't it fully GPLed by now?	Jun 07 12:08
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martinjh99	Sorry about that - Got disconnected! Did I miss anything?	Jun 07 12:14
schestowitz	I think now. Last message was: "YaST is another thing, but it's hardly needed most of the time. Isn't it fully GPLed by now?"	Jun 07 12:16
martinjh99	Yast is yes AFAIK... Not an expert on Suse by a long shot.	Jun 07 12:17
schestowitz	It used to be closed-source.	Jun 07 12:21
schestowitz	I think it only gradually opened, but nobody else embraced this, so I wondered...	Jun 07 12:22
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schestowitz	I'm off for a few hours...	Jun 07 12:49
martinjh99	Same here - When's the best time to drop by..?	Jun 07 12:49
schestowitz	Any time almost	Jun 07 12:49
martinjh99	when is it busier than it is now? ;)	Jun 07 12:49
schestowitz	Weekdays probably	Jun 07 12:51
martinjh99	Ah OK - Catch ya later!	Jun 07 12:52
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schestowitz	I've just taken Wikia search for a spin. It got pretty decent.	Jun 07 16:42
jbh	isn't that written in mono?	Jun 07 16:58
jbh	or use mono	Jun 07 16:59
jbh	or something	Jun 07 16:59
schestowitz	Lucene as the engine? I don't know. I was surprised to see Yahoo! at the top (given its possible vocation)	Jun 07 16:59
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jbh	is mono on the wii true?	Jun 07 17:21
jbh	they're trying to contaminate everything aren't they?	Jun 07 17:22
schestowitz	I've heard something from Miles about it a couple of days ago.	Jun 07 17:24
schestowitz	I can look up the details.	Jun 07 17:24
jbh	yea, that's the comment I just saw	Jun 07 17:25
schestowitz	Well, it would be a tad problematic if Microsoft #1 console competitor became technically dependent (and legally too) on its opponent, but this is just homebrew/hacker/modding.	Jun 07 17:25
schestowitz	Hi Andreas	Jun 07 17:26
jbh	http://unity3d.com/	Jun 07 17:27
jbh	found that after several pages of "Gutar Hero 3 + Mono sound"	Jun 07 17:28
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jbh	looks like it might be a bit more than modding	Jun 07 17:29
schestowitz	looks	Jun 07 17:29
jbh	true, hard to tell for sure	Jun 07 17:29
schestowitz	I'm looking at the URL	Jun 07 17:30
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jbh	http://unity3d.com/uni...	Jun 07 17:31
jbh	mentions that it uses mono for game scripting	Jun 07 17:32
jbh	".NET based	Jun 07 17:32
jbh	Game logic runs on the Open Source .NET platform, Mono. "	Jun 07 17:32
schestowitz	(interesting that OpenSUSE people join this channel (Andreas Stieger in this case)	Jun 07 17:32
jbh	I was wondering if he was from suse	Jun 07 17:33
schestowitz	Miguel wanted to grab some space on Android OHA) as well	Jun 07 17:33
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schestowitz	Replacing Java VM with .NETty stuff.	Jun 07 17:34
jbh	http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=...	Jun 07 17:34
jbh	yea, not surprised	Jun 07 17:35
schestowitz	Some Novell developers read BN.com as well, but that's another story. I don't believe it's well intended and I'm still hoping a group of them will fork and rescure S.u.S.E. so to speak.	Jun 07 17:36
schestowitz	Rescue, I mean	Jun 07 17:36
jbh	I never really liked SuSE	Jun 07 17:37
jbh	tried 5.3 and didn't care for it	Jun 07 17:37
jbh	been red hat and debian(based) since	Jun 07 17:37
jbh	(running ubuntu right now)	Jun 07 17:38
schestowitz	GNOME?	Jun 07 17:38
jbh	yea	Jun 07 17:38
schestowitz	I was using GNOME exclusively for years, on top of Red Hat Linux.	Jun 07 17:38
jbh	same	Jun 07 17:38
jbh	I only tried ubuntu about a year or so ago and have been running it since	Jun 07 17:39
schestowitz	Also loved Enlightenment, but with SuSE I began using KDE more often, going back to my experiences with it in 2.x days	Jun 07 17:39
jbh	I never had the hardware to handle enlightenment	Jun 07 17:41
schestowitz	Mandriva seems OK also and it's KDE-based. A friend sent me this E-mail the other day (he installed Mandriva. "Just tried out the Mandriva DVD, went like a dream. I kept my current partitions eg /root /boot /home /archive /backup /videos. Picked them up no problem. I would imagine the average user would have no problem in installing it. I do find the Mandriva specific msgs most help full. Obviously someone thought of the end users. Of course	Jun 07 17:41
schestowitz	what enduser has to install his own Windows from scratch nowadays. And of course with Mandriva you get a full office suite, media player etc, out of the box. With Windows you get a time limited etc. I accepted the default KDS/XPee lookalike desktop, next is to replace it with Xfce. One thing I noticed is that the USB is automatically picked up and a 'do you want to open a folder' msg pops up, just like XPee. Unlike, SuSE who helpfully disab	Jun 07 17:41
schestowitz	led auto mounting of USB devices in V 10.2 or there abouts. Ubuntu I liked especially for the online forum, spent ages trying to get BBC videos to work, worked once and then didn't .. :) So the verdict is: Mandriva is most definitely ready for the desktop."	Jun 07 17:41
schestowitz	I'm not sure about Mandriva because of Mandbo though (Turbolinux colab).	Jun 07 17:42
schestowitz	Manbo	Jun 07 17:42
jbh	ah	Jun 07 17:42
schestowitz	It's a collaboration where they swap code and TL gets to see MS code I believe.	Jun 07 17:43
jbh	yea, that's bad	Jun 07 17:44
schestowitz	Speaking of which...	Jun 07 17:45
*moparx shakes his head		Jun 07 17:45
schestowitz	Ubuntu spoke to Microsoft about codecs (I'm not sure I'm allowed to say this)...	Jun 07 17:45
jbh	is there anything in place to prevent that code from making it back upstream?	Jun 07 17:45
schestowitz	Which reminds me of the mind games they played with RHT before Global Desktop (probably) got canned.	Jun 07 17:45
schestowitz	They use codecs for extortion and not so long ago Michael Gesit caught Microsoft sending propaganda to Feds for DMCA in Canada.	Jun 07 17:46
schestowitz	Hours ago I found this:	Jun 07 17:46
schestowitz	Red Hat founder speaks against Canada's copyright reform ( http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/06/0... )	Jun 07 17:46
jbh	thanks for the link	Jun 07 17:48
schestowitz	Is anyone you know from CA. There was some lobbying for ODF there at the time, but it wasn't too fruitful.	Jun 07 17:49
schestowitz	TIm Bray is from there, but there was no appeal.	Jun 07 17:49
microsoft-spy	schestowitz: you are allowed, Ubuntu licensed Windows Media from Microsoft for Netbooks	Jun 07 17:49
jbh	I don't know anyone in CA	Jun 07 17:49
moparx	I'll never understand why a distro (or any foss developer for that matter) would purposefully taint themselves for some of microsoft's proprietary scraps.	Jun 07 17:50
schestowitz	Gah. Maybe that's why they don't allow downloads of it.	Jun 07 17:52
schestowitz	Software patents aren't even valid where Canonical is.	Jun 07 17:53
schestowitz	ms-spy, got a URL, please?	Jun 07 17:53
jbh	never even heard of netbooks before	Jun 07 17:54
microsoft-spy	schestowitz, how about http://www.canonical.com/netbooks ?	Jun 07 17:54
schestowitz	I believe this is important because given what I know I worry that MS (Mark S.) would do the same with MS for business 'enterprise' boxes.	Jun 07 17:54
microsoft-spy	schestowitz, MS does whatever benefits him, proprietary kernel parts etc	Jun 07 17:55
schestowitz	Which MS?	Jun 07 17:55
schestowitz	:-)	Jun 07 17:56
microsoft-spy	Shuttleworth	Jun 07 17:56
schestowitz	Well, that's very problematic because he enables Microsoft to control the price of Free software.	Jun 07 17:56
schestowitz	They already cross-licence with Apple, but they play by their own rules.	Jun 07 17:56
microsoft-spy	he just says "All the applications in Ubuntu are free software only."	Jun 07 17:57
schestowitz	Cross-licensing (pardon the typo above) is incompatible with the GPL.	Jun 07 17:58
schestowitz	Yes, but..	Jun 07 17:58
microsoft-spy	so does not include drivers, firmware, codecs, ...	Jun 07 17:58
schestowitz	Just to be clear, the issue is not binary/FOSS, but gratis/taxed	Jun 07 17:58
schestowitz	This forbids redistribution, which is also why they don't permit downloads. It's like another Moonlight.	Jun 07 17:59
jbh	I'm no longer having warm fuzzies about ubuntu :\	Jun 07 18:02
jbh	might have to switch back to fedora	Jun 07 18:04
*moparx prefers Slackware & Arch GNU/Linux		Jun 07 18:05
schestowitz	Heh.	Jun 07 18:05
jbh	I used to run slackware (my first distro) but it was too much work to maintain	Jun 07 18:06
schestowitz	Well, it'll be interesting to so how different people respond. Some months ago Red Hat's CEO sort of mocked Ubuntu for their handling of codecs.	Jun 07 18:06
jbh	which is my favorite part of ubuntu	Jun 07 18:06
schestowitz	There's always Debian, I guess, but it doesn't come with the same tools. Then, there'e Mint. What would MS+MS (on codecs) mean to a project like Linux Mint?	Jun 07 18:07
moparx	mint has mono if I recall correctly	Jun 07 18:08
jbh	so does every distro	Jun 07 18:08
moparx	installed by default I mean	Jun 07 18:08
moparx	my distros don't :p	Jun 07 18:08
schestowitz	Every Ubuntu derivative would	Jun 07 18:08
schestowitz	.	Jun 07 18:08
moparx	ah	Jun 07 18:08
schestowitz	That's why it ought to be nuked at the Debian branch.	Jun 07 18:09
schestowitz	A prominent Debian dev has been E-mailing me about it. He wants Mono out.	Jun 07 18:09
jbh	when can we expect it to be removed?	Jun 07 18:10
schestowitz	Ubuntu sets a dangerous example here. What's next? Licensing for MOOX?	Jun 07 18:10
schestowitz	De facto standards with tax or RAND are GPL poison. They forbid redistribution.	Jun 07 18:11
zoobab	this is pretty astonishing	Jun 07 18:16
zoobab	that Ubuntu licences patents for mp3	Jun 07 18:17
schestowitz	In the UK even.	Jun 07 18:17
jbh	schestowitz: why are distros shipping mono, then?	Jun 07 18:18
jbh	aren't they then breaking the law?	Jun 07 18:18
schestowitz	Then again, the bribery-loving, charity-killing Intel that they do bizniz with	Jun 07 18:18
schestowitz	With Mono it's different (compared to MP3)	Jun 07 18:19
schestowitz	There's no licensing and there's no actual code involved. It's to do primarily with : 1) technical dependency; 2) RAND; 3) No legal promise; 4) patents	Jun 07 18:20
schestowitz	Does this form of codec tax therefore affect all netbooks? What about Linpus ones?	Jun 07 18:21
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Eruaran	Microsoft is using the European Championship to spread its malware	Jun 07 18:50
Eruaran	http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3509	Jun 07 18:50
schestowitz	That was predictable. Will Ubuntu license that too? Oh, I guess he can't. There's no Silverlight for Linux. sigh	Jun 07 18:55
Eruaran	Well there's Anakin de Icaza's Moonlight... if you're a Novell customer...	Jun 07 18:59
schestowitz	I'l; write a post about it in a moment. Maybe attach a picture of a toilet seat to Silverlight or something. That's where it belongs. :-)	Jun 07 19:02
Eruaran	yes	Jun 07 19:02
microsoft-spy	Eruaran, Moonlight can use GStreamer and FFmpeg	Jun 07 19:03
schestowitz	Will Microsoft's partners not use forbidden codecs?	Jun 07 19:03
schestowitz	What about the legal issues?	Jun 07 19:03
Eruaran	It will be a cold day in hell before I ever use Moonlight	Jun 07 19:04
schestowitz	It's the Flash mess all over again, only worse because it's anti-Linux at the same time.	Jun 07 19:07
moparx	nod	Jun 07 19:07
schestowitz	A few moment ago I received a go-ahead from my editor at Datamation to write an article about OLPC and FOSS. Remember what stood in the way? Remember Flash/gnash?	Jun 07 19:08
Eruaran	yes	Jun 07 19:11
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Eruaran	bbl	Jun 07 19:23
schestowitz	Don't forget that Flash is spyware so those custo...errr... kids will be probably spied on for ad revenue and all sorts of similar childhood 'joys'	Jun 07 19:24
jbh	http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3304	Jun 07 19:41
jbh	that's a bit alarming	Jun 07 19:42
jbh	luckily C# is still the least voted for	Jun 07 19:42
schestowitz	I haven't seen it yet (will look in a moment), but Microsoft was caught in the past gaming polls (e.g. .NET vs Java). Its employees bombarded a poll.	Jun 07 19:44
schestowitz	Some suspect that they do the same in Ubuntu Brainstorm	Jun 07 19:45
jbh	oh	Jun 07 19:45
schestowitz	I was shown example, e.g. demands for Siilverlight	Jun 07 19:46
schestowitz	Microsoft employees also promote Silverlight in ZDNet comments (at the least, based on proven examples). Remember that it's the company which hires another to fake support letter from dead people (2001). It did the same recently in various occasions for OOXML.	Jun 07 19:48
jbh	wow	Jun 07 19:49
schestowitz	Malaysia schools, Denmark partners, India NGOs, ISO (Lisa Rajchel), probably more. And that excludes the stuffing.	Jun 07 19:51
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tessier	The Phoenix lander runs Linux? That is so col.	Jun 07 21:53
tessier	cool	Jun 07 21:53
schestowitz	I'm not sure. Someone in COLA begged to differ. Anyway, I'm tired. I'll be back later.	Jun 07 21:54
tessier	VxWorks is indeed not Linux.	Jun 07 21:56
tessier	I'm not sure where the blogger got the info.	Jun 07 21:56
tessier	WindRiver makes an RTOS Linux that could be used	Jun 07 21:56
tessier	Although I'm not sure there is a Linux based VxWorks	Jun 07 21:56
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Comments

NoSoftwarePatents

2008-06-08 13:50:34

Since Corel got mentioned, it would be a timely reminder about Corel's WordPerfect for Linux:

http://tldp.org/FAQ/WordPerfect-Linux-FAQ/future.html#END

All the packages with mono dependencies are setting up chumps for a big, nasty legal surprise when MS decides to cash in on the licensing Novell and other suckers have been peddling for them.

I hope Acer has the smarts to stick with Gobuntu, Kubuntu or, better, tweaked Debian.

IRC Log for June 7th, 2008

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