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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 27th, 2009 - Part 1


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DavidGerardwow, there's a nasty bug in kubuntu 9.04 re: openoffice 3.0Apr 27 00:01
DavidGerardooo3 tries to talk kde ... 3.Apr 27 00:01
DavidGerardyou hit 'open' and it takes a minute for the file selector to pop up, several error dialogues along the wayApr 27 00:02
DavidGerardpresumably we're all supposed to use kofficeApr 27 00:02
jose_Xthat would be a horrible bug indeed.. wonder what triggers itApr 27 00:02
DavidGerardum, me hitting control-O!Apr 27 00:03
DavidGerardit's looking for a DCOP server that isn't quite what it expects any moreApr 27 00:03
*DavidGerard doesn't know enough of the internals of kde to understand it moreApr 27 00:03
DavidGerardthat's what the error seems to be sayingApr 27 00:03
DavidGerardi would say "i can't believe no-one tested this and marked it blocker"Apr 27 00:04
DavidGerardbut i can believe thisApr 27 00:04
DavidGerardotoh it took until now for me to notice itApr 27 00:04
DavidGerardbut then my .doc editing is actually mostly in google docsApr 27 00:04
DavidGerardthere's me, living in the cloud. tasteful text ads woven into my line of vision.Apr 27 00:04
jose_XDavidGerard, what I meant was that it seems that would be an obvious bug so maybe it has something to do with your hw setup or something else (maybe a combination of something else)Apr 27 00:05
_Hicham_DavidGerard : OOo is better supported by GnomeApr 27 00:06
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jose_Xperhaps the bug shows with certain types of .doc formatted material.. or maybe some feature that is not fully implemented at this time. hopefully this wouldn't be something commonApr 27 00:15
Balrog 27 00:18
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jose_Xmaybe DavidGerard will file a bug report. the .doc he used might be importantApr 27 00:46
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jose_Xthere are too many things that could create the prob.Apr 27 00:46
schestowitzthe bug can be reported to KDE/Ooe and fixed quicklyApr 27 00:47
schestowitzIf it's serious and applies to all, it'll be fixedApr 27 00:47
schestowitzAlso, for KDE, Ubuntu does not seem like the right route. KDE is secondary in CanonicalApr 27 00:47
schestowitzMandriva is a good routeApr 27 00:47
jose_XGreyGeek from LinuxToday (and BN) was very positive on Kubuntu904Apr 27 00:48
jose_Xhw support and because he likes kde422Apr 27 00:48
_Hicham_schestowitz : Yes, but better file the bug to OOoApr 27 00:48
schestowitzMandriva 2009.1 is out soonApr 27 00:48
schestowitzGood KDE experience there.Apr 27 00:49
schestowitzNot all KDE4s are created equalApr 27 00:49
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_Hicham_but better install the upstream version firstApr 27 00:49
jose_Xbugs can arise from perfectly good sofware when used in bad configurationsApr 27 00:49
jose_Xmaybe the dependencies weren't metApr 27 00:49
oiaohmOk jose_X define bug.Apr 27 00:49
schestowitzI've always assumed Ubuntu just takes the core system, tosses kde-desktop on it, then adds package manager and som e stuffApr 27 00:49
schestowitzKubuntu is not the focus on CanonicalApr 27 00:49
_Hicham_Upstream projects binaries are better for filing bugsApr 27 00:50
jose_X"bug"Apr 27 00:50
schestowitzThey don't ship it as a productApr 27 00:50
schestowitzUnlike Mandriva...Apr 27 00:50
jose_Xpoint is we don't know what had the problemApr 27 00:50
jose_Xso an "ooo bug" might not be an ooo bug at all.. that was the point i guessApr 27 00:50
oiaohmSome bugs where applications can be put into bad configure are lack of good configuration tools.Apr 27 00:50
oiaohmTo warn users of stupidity.Apr 27 00:50
jose_Xor bad docsApr 27 00:50
oiaohmLike sambaApr 27 00:51
_Hicham_he might install the debug package if he want to spot the problemApr 27 00:51
jose_Xif people want stable, they should not be running the latest and greatestApr 27 00:51
oiaohmReally sold program but configuration is a nightmare.Apr 27 00:51
_Hicham_jose_X : not always goodApr 27 00:51
oiaohmjose_X: latest and greatest is another problem.Apr 27 00:51
_Hicham_jose_X : do u agree on running OOo 2.4?Apr 27 00:51
_Hicham_it is more stableApr 27 00:52
oiaohmWhy are distrobutions designed to only have 1 version of the runtime.Apr 27 00:52
jose_Xi don't use ooo or word processing for muchApr 27 00:52
jose_Xdid my resume years ago in html and used html to pdf conversionApr 27 00:52
_Hicham_oiaohm : to reuse the librariesApr 27 00:52
oiaohmThere are a lot of cases where having many has stablity advantages.Apr 27 00:52
oiaohmIe applications only used with versions they are known stable with.Apr 27 00:53
oiaohmProblem for distributions they try to force all applications to use 1 version.Apr 27 00:53
_Hicham_oiaohm : but that breaks one of a Linux Distro principlesApr 27 00:53
jose_Xmy taxes are the html output from some javascript processing and that gets converted to pdf as wellApr 27 00:53
_Hicham_one library version for all programsApr 27 00:53
oiaohmIts a flawed idea.Apr 27 00:54
oiaohmgoal should be to get to 1.Apr 27 00:54
oiaohmBut not at the cost of users.Apr 27 00:54
oiaohmCurrently the idea of 1 is put before the cost to users.Apr 27 00:54
jose_Xoiaohm, completely agree about the version thing.. not saying no distro does that but most seem not toApr 27 00:54
oiaohmSo users cannot run latest and greatest programs because old programs don't work with the new version.Apr 27 00:55
oiaohmReally with multi version support there is not reason to split development and mainline as split installs.Apr 27 00:55
_Hicham_oiaohm : in that case the program uses its local libraryApr 27 00:55
_Hicham_not the system's oneApr 27 00:55
jose_Xsome apps come with the libraries they like.. so users do have that option if someone puts the package together that wayApr 27 00:55
jose_Xbut distros are failing not to support many versionsApr 27 00:56
jose_Xthere are  a lot of things I want improved in distrosApr 27 00:56
jose_Xthat doesn't mean things are bad now, but they can be betterApr 27 00:56
_Hicham_jose_X : like?Apr 27 00:56
schestowitzlinks posted, gnApr 27 00:56
oiaohmTake debian sid testing and stableApr 27 00:56
jose_X_Hicham_, do you mean what I would change?Apr 27 00:57
oiaohmIf there was proper multi version support in there you could have a single tree.Apr 27 00:57
_Hicham_jose_X : yesApr 27 00:57
oiaohmWith all the parts in sid testing and stable.Apr 27 00:57
oiaohmWith users able to install any combination of it without any issues.Apr 27 00:57
oiaohmIts supprisingly not that hard to do.Apr 27 00:57
_Hicham_oiaohm : I don't think it is a good ideaApr 27 00:57
oiaohmThe dynamic loader in Linux is a userspace program.Apr 27 00:58
jose_Xwell, i want applications to build dependencies that are accurate and extensiveApr 27 00:58
jose_Xanyone can take the lead here.. we need not wait for projects.. you can patch themApr 27 00:58
_Hicham_and u know that one of the main reasons to use up-to-date libraries is security concernsApr 27 00:58
jose_Xthe result would allow easier building of distros.. of custom distrosApr 27 00:58
_Hicham_that is why programs should be relinked against new versionsApr 27 00:59
oiaohmSo debian back ports patches to old appliccations and that does not cause secuirty problems _Hicham_Apr 27 00:59
jose_Xyou can manage the security issue to a degree with chroot and other toolsApr 27 00:59
oiaohm1 version stops defective programs from just being deleted out of existance.Apr 27 00:59
_Hicham_oiaohm : backports are not always a good ideaApr 27 00:59
oiaohmInstead of just upgrading them.Apr 27 01:00
oiaohmThere are lots of cost to that 1 version idea.Apr 27 01:00
oiaohmforced to do backports is one of them.Apr 27 01:00
_Hicham_oiaohm : Debian model is uniqueApr 27 01:00
oiaohmRedhat does it too.Apr 27 01:00
oiaohmIts not uniqueApr 27 01:00
jose_Xconsider forkingApr 27 01:01
oiaohmYou end up wall pinned.Apr 27 01:01
jose_Xthat should be supported and encouragedApr 27 01:01
oiaohmIf I update this .so file I will break like 20 applications.Apr 27 01:01
oiaohmBut one applications has a secuirty flaw and it needs a never version of it.Apr 27 01:01
_Hicham_oiaohm : u can always link it against a local libraryApr 27 01:01
oiaohmSo backporting gets forced.Apr 27 01:01
oiaohmLinking to a local library break the 1 lib for all rule too _Hicham_Apr 27 01:02
oiaohmYou have to break the rule.Apr 27 01:02
oiaohmOr have messes.Apr 27 01:02
jose_X_Hicham_ what you just said would be support for multiple versions. that should be faciliated not just possibleApr 27 01:02
jose_Xunix supports multiple versions.. i'm not arguing things are hell.. i'm just saying that i would like more support in that areaApr 27 01:03
oiaohmMutli version also allows segment by segment upgrade.Apr 27 01:03
oiaohmAlso segment by segment roll back.Apr 27 01:03
oiaohmSo you upgrade and a key program you need does not work.Apr 27 01:04
jose_Xit would put more control in the end user instead of the concept of a package providerApr 27 01:04
_Hicham_oiaohm : if the library is vulnerable, all programs that depend on it must be retested after upgradeApr 27 01:04
oiaohmMakes problems more correctable by end user.Apr 27 01:04
oiaohmMutli lib is about applications not libs _Hicham_Apr 27 01:04
oiaohmYes a secuirty flawed lib could still force back porting.Apr 27 01:05
oiaohmBut we really don't need back porting on everything.Apr 27 01:05
_Hicham_it can be patchedApr 27 01:05
_Hicham_as Debian doApr 27 01:05
oiaohmBackporting.Apr 27 01:06
_Hicham_without upgrading the whole systemApr 27 01:06
oiaohmDebian takes fix from newer version and coverts to older.Apr 27 01:06
oiaohmIe backporting.Apr 27 01:06
_Hicham_yesApr 27 01:06
_Hicham_to ensure system stabilityApr 27 01:06
oiaohmProblem with backporting it causes unstablity as well.Apr 27 01:06
_Hicham_how?Apr 27 01:07
oiaohmIf patch does not fit in right big problems happen.Apr 27 01:07
oiaohmbackports are not as well tested.Apr 27 01:07
_Hicham_if there is not enough testingApr 27 01:07
_Hicham_not security patchesApr 27 01:07
_Hicham_security patches get well tested in DebianApr 27 01:07
oiaohmA main open source project the code is built and tested by many distributions.Apr 27 01:07
oiaohmEven debain secuirty patches are on advrage more flawed than just updating the lib.Apr 27 01:08
oiaohmBackporting need to be a last resort option.Apr 27 01:08
_Hicham_backporting is not advised in DebianApr 27 01:09
oiaohmLibs with backport need to be least used.   So reducing risk.Apr 27 01:09
oiaohmDebian has backports even on libcApr 27 01:09
oiaohmEven that for over 90 percent of the applications could be just using the newer version.Apr 27 01:09
_Hicham_backports for libc?Apr 27 01:10
oiaohmSo avoiding risks.Apr 27 01:10
oiaohmDebian is not a good example of how to do it.Apr 27 01:10
_Hicham_seems illogicalApr 27 01:10
oiaohmOnce debain goes stable.Apr 27 01:10
oiaohmThe versions of libs basically locks.Apr 27 01:10
_Hicham_why backport libc?Apr 27 01:10
_Hicham_better upgrade the whole systemApr 27 01:11
oiaohmthen have stacks of applications that don't work.Apr 27 01:11
oiaohmYou need half way point.Apr 27 01:11
jose_X_Hicham_, Linux is overdue for a file format (eg, xml) to describe in as homogenous a fashion as possible as much metadata about each projectApr 27 01:11
oiaohmHalfway between full upgrade and the old flawed system.Apr 27 01:12
jose_Xthis is a necessary step to giving the end user maximum controlApr 27 01:12
oiaohmBasically the 1 lib idea does not work.Apr 27 01:12
jose_Xit could be used for things like to properly account for license/authors as well as (importantly) for dependencies and build hints or instructionsApr 27 01:12
oiaohmWhat is need is a rolling system.Apr 27 01:12
_Hicham_oiaohm : so there should be many libc versions?Apr 27 01:13
oiaohmSo upgrading happens in a invisable way.Apr 27 01:13
oiaohm_Hicham_: most likely 2 versions.Apr 27 01:13
oiaohmOne for older applications that will not work with more modern libcApr 27 01:14
oiaohmOf course the older 1 has the back ported patches in it.Apr 27 01:14
oiaohmAnd is planed for removal as soon as no more applications depend on it.Apr 27 01:14
oiaohmBasically a deprecation system.Apr 27 01:15
_Hicham_oiaohm : it is an upgrading processApr 27 01:15
oiaohmYes.Apr 27 01:15
oiaohmJust not a big change at once as the current system demards.Apr 27 01:16
_Hicham_that brings us to the fast release cycle vs long term cycleApr 27 01:16
oiaohmIt also provides the option of going backwards temp until issues with newer parts are vised.Apr 27 01:16
oiaohmThis is called no cycle.Apr 27 01:16
oiaohmAll updates happen when they are ready.Apr 27 01:17
_Hicham_Debian vs Ubuntu, RHEL vs FedoraApr 27 01:17
oiaohmnone of them run on a no cycle.Apr 27 01:17
oiaohmcycle sets a fixed time between updates.Apr 27 01:18
_Hicham_oiaohm : no cycle is not goodApr 27 01:18
_Hicham_especially for commercial endsApr 27 01:18
oiaohmHow its it not good.Apr 27 01:18
oiaohmNo cycle allows older programs to work.Apr 27 01:19
_Hicham_older programs should be upgradedApr 27 01:19
oiaohmFor longer than cycle do.Apr 27 01:19
_Hicham_or ported to new libsApr 27 01:19
oiaohmolder programs in business should only be upgraded if the upgrade works.Apr 27 01:19
oiaohmIts about the users.Apr 27 01:20
oiaohmCurrent hack around cycle is chroot the old defective distribution.Apr 27 01:20
oiaohmWhat means more applications with defective parts _Hicham_Apr 27 01:21
oiaohmno cycle allows updates at any time.  Either for features or secuirty.Apr 27 01:21
oiaohmAllows defective parts to be depreaced out faster than fixed cycle.Apr 27 01:22
_Hicham_oiaohm : i don't think that this is applicableApr 27 01:22
oiaohmcycle effects business usage _Hicham_Apr 27 01:22
oiaohmMS is having the trouble with Vista due to upgrade cost due to numbers of applications that will fail.Apr 27 01:23
oiaohmBusinesses are staying put.Apr 27 01:23
_Hicham_but at least, people will know when to upgrade their systemsApr 27 01:23
oiaohmMS in windows 7 is now forced to virtualise XP .Apr 27 01:23
oiaohmSo all the viruses of XP will remain around.Apr 27 01:23
oiaohmFor a lot longer.Apr 27 01:24
oiaohmBasically failure.Apr 27 01:24
oiaohmThat is the path cycle sooner or latter causes.Apr 27 01:24
_Hicham_Microsoft has no release cycleApr 27 01:24
oiaohmLOLApr 27 01:24
oiaohmThey do.Apr 27 01:24
oiaohmLast 2 have been late.Apr 27 01:25
oiaohmJust like debain is late on it release cycles.Apr 27 01:25
_Hicham_they failed to release Vista on time ( old Longhorn )Apr 27 01:25
_Hicham_Debian has no release cycles tooApr 27 01:25
oiaohmDebian is ment to get a release out every 12 months.Apr 27 01:25
oiaohmSo far never happened.Apr 27 01:25
oiaohmOk onceApr 27 01:26
oiaohmSecound version.Apr 27 01:26
_Hicham_meant and do are different thingsApr 27 01:26
oiaohmThey still have a time tabled release cycle.Apr 27 01:26
oiaohmJust fail to stick to it.Apr 27 01:26
_Hicham_because it is a volunteer projectsApr 27 01:27
oiaohmUbuntu has failed to stick to theres from time to time too.Apr 27 01:27
oiaohmAll items with a release cycle will miss it from time to time.Apr 27 01:27
oiaohmSome groups are better at keeping it than others.Apr 27 01:27
oiaohmWine has a development version release cycle of 2 weeks.Apr 27 01:27
oiaohm90 percent of the time they hit it.Apr 27 01:27
_Hicham_Fedora's approach is greatApr 27 01:27
oiaohmSometimes it expands to 3 to 4 weeks.Apr 27 01:27
_Hicham_they always have a contingency planApr 27 01:28
_Hicham_if we fail to do that, here is plan BApr 27 01:28
oiaohmThat is better release cycle management.Apr 27 01:28
oiaohmBut its still a cycle.Apr 27 01:28
oiaohmIn a no cycle you can still have offical releases.Apr 27 01:29
oiaohmThe difference in a no cycle your end users are automatically updated.Apr 27 01:29
_Hicham_oiaohm : a cycle ensure syncing with upstream projectsApr 27 01:30
oiaohmAll upstream projects have different cycles.Apr 27 01:30
oiaohmLike you are not going to try to keep a full distribution normally up a wine cycle of 2 weeks.Apr 27 01:30
oiaohmNo cycle in the distribution allows each bit to run at the cycle of the upstream project.Apr 27 01:31
oiaohmLinux kernel cycles every 3 months.  KDE and Gnome releses are never in line with each other.Apr 27 01:33
_Hicham_oiaohm : u are then promoting Windows philosophyApr 27 01:33
oiaohmBasically setting a cycle at distribution level brings you into conflit with all the cycles you have to stay synced.Apr 27 01:33
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oiaohmNot a windows one.Apr 27 01:34
oiaohmThere is still a place for quality control.Apr 27 01:34
_Hicham_how ?Apr 27 01:34
oiaohmFixed cycles force items to be rushed.Apr 27 01:34
_Hicham_which is greatApr 27 01:35
_Hicham_rushing is always goodApr 27 01:35
oiaohmDepends.Apr 27 01:35
oiaohmIf you are the poor user who lossed document because of it.Apr 27 01:35
_Hicham_I appreciate rushingApr 27 01:35
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_Hicham_it is the user's fault thenApr 27 01:35
oiaohmWould it not be better to run all the QA testsApr 27 01:35
the_mad_hatterAlways user fault <G>Apr 27 01:36
oiaohmBefore droping it on the user.Apr 27 01:36
_Hicham_oiaohm : nothing is perfectApr 27 01:36
the_mad_hatterHave you heard about XPM?Apr 27 01:36
_Hicham_everything needs extensive testingApr 27 01:36
oiaohmno cycle allows focus to stick on having it done right.Apr 27 01:36
_Hicham_that is why we have development versions of distrosApr 27 01:36
oiaohmOk this bit not ready.  Plan b it use older verison for now.Apr 27 01:36
_Hicham_everything goes tested in thereApr 27 01:37
the_mad_hatterNew option in some versions of Windows 7 - XP Compatibility ModeApr 27 01:37
the_mad_hatter 27 01:37
oiaohmStuff stays in development versions longer than it should.Apr 27 01:37
oiaohmStuff stays in stable longer than it should too.Apr 27 01:37
oiaohmBasically fixed cycle ends up with crud.Apr 27 01:37
oiaohmPoor user ends up paying for it.Apr 27 01:38
_Hicham_oiaohm : how to do QA then?Apr 27 01:38
_Hicham_how to fix the time of testing?Apr 27 01:38
oiaohmYou know that like 6 months before debian release 95 percent of the applications are fully tested.Apr 27 01:39
_Hicham_yesApr 27 01:39
oiaohmIts the 5 percent that cause the delay form users getting access to those features.Apr 27 01:39
oiaohmSo users are stuck with worse programs due to 5 percent problem.Apr 27 01:39
_Hicham_but Debian have a longer testing time because of the different archs it supportsApr 27 01:40
oiaohmQA method does not really need to change.Apr 27 01:40
_Hicham_Fedora have a different approachApr 27 01:40
oiaohmDelievery need to.Apr 27 01:40
_Hicham_how ?Apr 27 01:40
oiaohmWhen its passed it goes to user.Apr 27 01:40
oiaohmTo do that you need multi lib support.Apr 27 01:40
oiaohmOnly the not passed stuff remains in the development versions.Apr 27 01:41
oiaohmThis also makes it simple for people to focus what needs work.Apr 27 01:41
oiaohmThe advantage of no cycle.  Cleaner to see where work has to be done.Apr 27 01:42
_Hicham_multilib support is present in DebianApr 27 01:42
_Hicham_there is for example libstdc++5 and 6Apr 27 01:42
_Hicham_upstream Thunderbird is linked against libstdc++5Apr 27 01:43
oiaohmOnly to a small ammount.Apr 27 01:43
oiaohmSimply they were forced.Apr 27 01:44
_Hicham_there is gtk+-2.0 and gtk+-1.2Apr 27 01:45
oiaohmBut you would not see subversions in there when they are needed.Apr 27 01:45
oiaohmBasically the idea of 1 lib already does not exist.Apr 27 01:45
_Hicham_that is what I want to sayApr 27 01:46
oiaohmAccept it move forward and do what is best for the end users.Apr 27 01:46
oiaohmBest for the end users is getting the newest stable applications to them as soon as you can.Apr 27 01:46
_Hicham_the model ur proposing is problematic, and brings more overheadApr 27 01:46
oiaohmReally not.Apr 27 01:46
oiaohmBrings more disk space usage.Apr 27 01:47
_Hicham_for sureApr 27 01:47
oiaohmWork wise no more than maintaining the 3 branches.Apr 27 01:47
_Hicham_u will end up with a really huge /usr/lib and /lib directoriesApr 27 01:47
oiaohmTo a point.Apr 27 01:47
_Hicham_it is disk space and memory usage tooApr 27 01:48
oiaohmApplications shipping with there own libs also will cost that.Apr 27 01:48
_Hicham_firefox and thunderbird do not share the same librariesApr 27 01:49
oiaohmUsers isntalling a chroot to use older applciations will cost more.Apr 27 01:49
_Hicham_older applications are problematic tooApr 27 01:49
_Hicham_simply they need to be ported to new librariesApr 27 01:49
oiaohmI want to be rid of them.Apr 27 01:49
oiaohmBut they don't disappear over night.Apr 27 01:50
_Hicham_or provide a compatibilty bridge libraryApr 27 01:50
oiaohmProblem with chroot is it gets out side the normal update cycle.Apr 27 01:50
_Hicham_like redhat doApr 27 01:50
Balrog_multilibs ... Apple does it in an interesting wayApr 27 01:50
_Hicham_why not bridge libs?Apr 27 01:51
oiaohmredhat compatibilty bridges allow cycle crossing.Apr 27 01:51
oiaohmbridge libs could be used as the final depreaction move of a lib _Hicham_ in a no cycle.Apr 27 01:51
Balrog_they use a 'framework' directory that's structured like this: Root --> Headers, <Binary>, Resources [all symlinks]; Versions --> [version number] --> Headers, <Binary>, ResourcesApr 27 01:52
oiaohmUsers don't want to be using really old programs either.Apr 27 01:52
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Balrog_then you can have multiple versions within the same packageApr 27 01:52
Balrog_the symlinks link to the current versionApr 27 01:52
Balrog_of course, this isn't used for different architectures as there are fat binaries for that.Apr 27 01:52
jose_X_Hicham_ the disk space usage is not a prob. however clutter is a different matter. the two are independent of each other though not in practice todayApr 27 01:53
_Hicham_oiaohm : providing a bridge library is easier than porting a whole lot of stuffApr 27 01:53
oiaohmbridge library is still a multi lib solution.Apr 27 01:53
_Hicham_oiaohm : but it is less problematicApr 27 01:54
oiaohmJust reduces diskspace for the means to do it.Apr 27 01:54
jose_Xoiaohm, we can have auto chroot support created so that it is not a big deal but happens transparentlyApr 27 01:54
oiaohmThe problem with the chroot is the version of Linux in there jose_XApr 27 01:54
oiaohmLot of places forget what they have in there.Apr 27 01:54
oiaohmSo it becomes completely not supported.Apr 27 01:55
oiaohmYet still in use.Apr 27 01:55
oiaohm_Hicham_ its time to make bridge libs they don't come out of thin are.Apr 27 01:55
oiaohmIts all comprimses.Apr 27 01:56
oiaohmAllowing multi libs side by side allows stuff to work.Apr 27 01:56
oiaohmAt the cost of more disk and memory.Apr 27 01:56
jose_Xoiaohm, i haven't played with chroot much but i don't see the prob you are implying exists. could you be more specificApr 27 01:56
oiaohmLets say you put like a LTS version of ubuntu in that chroot.Apr 27 01:57
oiaohmYou are using 1 or 2 applications from it.Apr 27 01:57
oiaohmCould you not forget about it completely when it goes end of life.Apr 27 01:57
oiaohmThat is what happens.Apr 27 01:57
oiaohmThe cycle split causes these problems.   Users cannot run old and new under the single management system to draw there attention to stuff that should be removed.Apr 27 01:58
jose_Xoiaohm, i think you are saying that chroot is not designed into the distro and supportedApr 27 01:59
oiaohmThere is not need for chroot if applications work with each other either jose_XApr 27 01:59
jose_Xyou are talking about an end user hack that might be done today, right?  i would like distros to support, among other things, a framework that i think chroot could help implementApr 27 01:59
oiaohmI am talking about what is done today.Apr 27 02:00
jose_Xis chroot not useful for security?Apr 27 02:00
_Hicham_oiaohm : bridge libs is better at thatApr 27 02:00
jose_Xto isolate instances of runningsApr 27 02:00
jose_Xin particular, make it easy to go from one chroot to another ...Apr 27 02:00
_Hicham_we can keep upgrading programs until the bridge libs get orphanedApr 27 02:00
jose_Xand ...Apr 27 02:00
oiaohmchroot alone is not useful.  You need to wrap it up in containers.Apr 27 02:00
jose_Xreuse..Apr 27 02:01
jose_Xi think the future is source distrosApr 27 02:01
oiaohmBasically _Hicham_ bridge beats back portings.Apr 27 02:01
jose_Xbut not like gentoo where one group sets up all the limitsApr 27 02:01
jose_Xrather like Linux from scratch..Apr 27 02:01
jose_Xbut with a lot more organization and standardization of semantic descriptions of the project appications taht exist or are createdApr 27 02:02
oiaohmMulti version allows when bridge don't work so applications still to _Hicham_Apr 27 02:02
oiaohmCorrect answer as with all these things is use many different items to get close to ideal as able.Apr 27 02:02
oiaohmIdea for users is latest and greatest applications with perfect stablity.Apr 27 02:03
oiaohmIdea/IdealApr 27 02:03
_Hicham_Unreachable IdealApr 27 02:03
oiaohmI know.Apr 27 02:03
oiaohmBut what is the closest we can get to it.Apr 27 02:03
jose_Xoiaohm, what you are describing is some oil to help smooth through cases some users run into today. what I am saying is simply to take that sort of support for multiversion to a new level to allow much more flexible computing in the futureApr 27 02:03
jose_Xyou might thing we would make a mess of things.. but not if we tag all important issues carefully..Apr 27 02:04
oiaohmWithout Users distributions die.Apr 27 02:04
oiaohmIts really simple to forgot what the users needs and goals are.Apr 27 02:05
oiaohmMS vista was a great example of that.Apr 27 02:05
_Hicham_oiaohm : if all libraries providers were to provide bridges, we wouldn't run into thatApr 27 02:05
jose_Xcomparisons to windows don't work because you don't get access to source thereApr 27 02:05
oiaohmNot really _Hicham_Apr 27 02:06
jose_Xlinux is different. users really can be in controlApr 27 02:06
_Hicham_basically, there should be a smooth transition planApr 27 02:06
oiaohmdynamic loader of Linux finds the first .so not the best .so for the applciation.Apr 27 02:06
oiaohmmulti lib support means correcting the loader.Apr 27 02:06
jose_Xnow imagine the loader..Apr 27 02:06
oiaohmOr correcting the executable.Apr 27 02:07
jose_Xsimply being part of a larger creation framework where it could be customized on a per app basisApr 27 02:07
jose_Xthe complexity can be managed because most uses cases are few in number and have a well defined set of constraintsApr 27 02:07
oiaohmBasically they don't build bridges in large numbers because no management framework is there _Hicham_Apr 27 02:07
*Balrog_ has quit ("bye")Apr 27 02:08
jose_Ximagine debian, and every other distro maintainer standardizing their recipesApr 27 02:08
oiaohmlibs also support versioning.  But that is more of a night mare than a help.Apr 27 02:08
oiaohmApplciation is taged to only talk to X version.Apr 27 02:08
jose_Xthere would be large overlaps (we would search and design it to be so)..Apr 27 02:08
oiaohmYou have updated by 1 darm without version.Apr 27 02:09
jose_Xdistros would be created by end users and projects would export semantic tags to facilitate thisApr 27 02:09
oiaohmNot going to happen any time soon jose_XApr 27 02:09
jose_Xsure oiaohm  that's what they said about ....Apr 27 02:10
oiaohmLSB projectApr 27 02:10
oiaohmwork with themApr 27 02:10
jose_Xa demo to show the proof of concept could get a lot of people on boardApr 27 02:10
_Hicham_jose_X : "distros would be created by end users"?Apr 27 02:10
oiaohmKnow first hand how hard distributions hold on to there own packaging format.Apr 27 02:10
jose_Xyou are familiar with linux from scratch rightApr 27 02:10
_Hicham_LSB is greatApr 27 02:10
oiaohmBiggest cat fight in LSB history was over packaging.Apr 27 02:11
oiaohmjose_X lot of project have produced demos of it.Apr 27 02:12
oiaohmAnd they have all died a slow death.Apr 27 02:12
_Hicham_oiaohm : third parties rarely use specific package managementApr 27 02:12
jose_Xwe are talking about different thingsApr 27 02:12
jose_XoiaohmApr 27 02:12
_Hicham_they provide their installer/unistaller à la WindowsApr 27 02:12
oiaohmMostly because of the incompadible.Apr 27 02:13
jose_Xwell closed source apps are a different beast.Apr 27 02:13
oiaohmLot of those ISV's come to LSB and want a common packaging format.Apr 27 02:13
oiaohmWhen they cannot have it they go back to the windows way.Apr 27 02:13
_Hicham_thanks to god we have checkinstallApr 27 02:14
_Hicham_u can have a package for ur distros our of the binary installerApr 27 02:14
oiaohmLSB is trying to get packagekit up.Apr 27 02:14
jose_Xwhen you want to update a package, you say something like Package-app refresh and install XApr 27 02:14
jose_XThe user has control but it is at a very high levelApr 27 02:15
*the_mad_hatter has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 27 02:15
oiaohmSo those binary installers will register what they install _Hicham_Apr 27 02:15
jose_Xwhat they install as been preplaned to a large degree and you can't deviate from that planApr 27 02:15
oiaohmjose_X you have been describing the fist goals of gentoo.Apr 27 02:15
oiaohmA working system providing what you are talking about with market dominance is not going to happen soon.Apr 27 02:16
_Hicham_packagekit found its way into ubuntuApr 27 02:16
jose_Xthe install instructions could be more general with the building being done on the users pc and aware of what already existed thereApr 27 02:16
_Hicham_but not into debian yetApr 27 02:16
_Hicham_still, packagekit depends on a distribution package managerApr 27 02:17
jose_Xnot soon as in 2 years, but i can see this growing for sureApr 27 02:17
oiaohmpackagekit allows packages to be installed not in the distributions package format.Apr 27 02:17
jose_Xthe user's pc would cache past builds and reuse where possibleApr 27 02:17
_Hicham_oiaohm : how then?Apr 27 02:18
jose_Xthe actual system the user sees would be like a database viewApr 27 02:18
oiaohmIts interfaces _Hicham_Apr 27 02:18
oiaohmYou still only need 1 database for installed packages.Apr 27 02:18
_Hicham_do u mean that we can mix formats?Apr 27 02:19
oiaohmYepApr 27 02:19
jose_Xbtw, i can see a case where you'd buy your pc from a linux vendor and it would allocate say 200 gigs for this framework.. the pc would come with a huge amount of prebuild stuff (and source of course)Apr 27 02:19
oiaohmnovell built a rpm installer that used packagekit.Apr 27 02:19
oiaohmto a gentoo back end.Apr 27 02:20
oiaohmbehind packagekit.Apr 27 02:20
_Hicham_so we will have a unified database for all specific package managers?Apr 27 02:20
oiaohmHopefully.Apr 27 02:20
oiaohmMore like does not matther about package format.Apr 27 02:21
oiaohmIt can reg in what ever database you like using.Apr 27 02:21
_Hicham_it is problematic tooApr 27 02:23
_Hicham_since some distros have specific libsApr 27 02:23
_Hicham_basically, we should just merge rpm and debApr 27 02:27
jose_Xwhy is it a problem to mix sources of debs or rmps etc?Apr 27 02:27
jose_X.. because there are too many items that are hardwiredApr 27 02:27
jose_Xand the decisions taken differ among packagersApr 27 02:28
jose_Xif you abstract all of these issuesApr 27 02:28
_Hicham_jose_X : abstracting is not evidentApr 27 02:28
jose_Xyou don't have to be able to abstract everythingApr 27 02:28
jose_Xflexibility by some allows inflexibilities by othersApr 27 02:28
jose_Xbut this is foss.. we can patch and homogenize as necessary.. if people get behind itApr 27 02:29
jose_Xand what does "evident" mean? certainly not unsolvableApr 27 02:29
jose_Xjust that you couldn't do it with what we have today without roling up sleavesApr 27 02:29
jose_Xend user centric has to make the concept of forking easy to executeApr 27 02:29
jose_Xat least if you want to tap into the flexibility (the killer feature) of fossApr 27 02:30
jose_Xthe concept of distro and apps and whatever would meld into a single "current system configuration"Apr 27 02:31
_Hicham_just take for example Debian debs and Ubuntu debsApr 27 02:31
jose_Xi'm all earsApr 27 02:31
_Hicham_mixing them is not an optionApr 27 02:31
jose_Xwe need to iron all of these issues outApr 27 02:31
jose_Xi knowApr 27 02:31
oiaohmThere is a way to mix them _Hicham_Apr 27 02:32
jose_Xthey are inflexible recipesApr 27 02:32
_Hicham_just like Mandriva, Fedora, and OpenSuse rpmsApr 27 02:32
jose_Xwe need flexible recipesApr 27 02:32
oiaohmSupprising with a little bit of loader hacking can do.Apr 27 02:32
oiaohmI have merged distributions in the past _Hicham_Apr 27 02:32
_Hicham_oiaohm : I am not talking about libsApr 27 02:32
jose_Xthink declarative html vs something with less flexibility like an actual machine language byte stream that gives few outside optionsApr 27 02:32
oiaohmI know every dirty trick to do.Apr 27 02:32
_Hicham_I am talking about packagesApr 27 02:32
oiaohmTo cross the packages.Apr 27 02:33
jose_Xbtw, oiaohm, i know you can blend the debs through a higher abstraction layerApr 27 02:33
oiaohmYou need to source lower and upper levels.Apr 27 02:33
jose_Xnever mindApr 27 02:33
_Hicham_here is an example : some packages in Ubuntu try to write other packages contents in DebianApr 27 02:34
jose_Xi got distracted.. the issue of allowing multiple package types is disctinctApr 27 02:34
_Hicham_packages do not have the same contentsApr 27 02:34
jose_Xfrom saying that any two given packages are compat with each otherApr 27 02:34
oiaohmStill can be handled _Hicham_Apr 27 02:34
oiaohmIt does get really evil.Apr 27 02:34
oiaohmFun is the /etc directory and the home directory.Apr 27 02:35
_Hicham_oiaohm : u have to uncompress the package and recreate itApr 27 02:35
oiaohmNoApr 27 02:35
oiaohmYou high jack the package managers.Apr 27 02:35
oiaohmThen cause each to use different loadersApr 27 02:36
jose_Xanyway all of that would be faciliated if we moved around the recipes instead of the whole implemented recipe that is the packageApr 27 02:36
oiaohmFrom the loader you can chroot.Apr 27 02:36
oiaohmIf required.Apr 27 02:36
oiaohmSo yes mergable yes messy as hell.Apr 27 02:36
jose_Xoiaohm, imagine taking that but standardizing so that it is not messy as hellApr 27 02:37
jose_Xwith declarative content it's easier to have these implemented differently depending on greater contextApr 27 02:37
_Hicham_Linux will never be mergedApr 27 02:37
jose_Xso the "implementing of the packages" if you will happens where the user is atApr 27 02:37
jose_Xthis is flexibleApr 27 02:38
jose_Xto make it efficient, we'd need to patch some things and basically help design for this.. also, people would have to start building these recipesApr 27 02:38
jose_Xthink of a large source base at the user PCApr 27 02:38
jose_Xfrom it you can construct fedora v.X or ubuntu v.y or anything in betweenApr 27 02:39
jose_Xall from saying with configurations would be current.Apr 27 02:39
jose_Xthe system analyzes that and figures out all the other steps to takeApr 27 02:39
oiaohm_Hicham_ I manual merged mandrake and Redhat in 1998 when things are not as standard as they are now.Apr 27 02:39
oiaohmIncluding remaping common libs.Apr 27 02:39
oiaohmThat were in different locations.Apr 27 02:40
jose_Xall the careful consideration would go into building these.. and you can create as many exceptions as necessary (it's all about labels and interfaces)Apr 27 02:40
oiaohmMerge of distributions is possiable just current day tools hard.Apr 27 02:40
_Hicham_oiaohm : mandrake diverged a lot from redhatApr 27 02:41
jose_Xalso, oiaohm, it's hard to take two implementations and match them (interoperate)Apr 27 02:41
jose_Xbut its easier if you have the instructions of each as the starting point and these instructions share a common semanticsApr 27 02:41
oiaohmThere is more in comon between mandriva and redhat now than when I did it _Hicham_Apr 27 02:41
jose_Xwith exceptions here and there of course.. which can be managed in various ways (which are not ideal)Apr 27 02:41
oiaohmSupprising lots of dlls even back then where compadible versions.Apr 27 02:42
oiaohmopps .soApr 27 02:42
oiaohmSo you could just use new version of the .so and everything worked.Apr 27 02:42
oiaohmThere is really not as much distribution difference as people make out.Apr 27 02:43
_Hicham_oiaohm : then u bypassed the package manager?Apr 27 02:43
oiaohmHad custom prick.Apr 27 02:43
jose_Xi think he is talking about hacking them.. at least back thenApr 27 02:43
jose_Xcustom.. rightApr 27 02:43
_Hicham_oiaohm : what about the difference between Debian and RedHat?Apr 27 02:44
oiaohmWhere I could map up that when application asked for this package it really was asking for this one.Apr 27 02:44
jose_Xand packagekit is a high level interface to abstract specific packagers right?Apr 27 02:44
oiaohmAnd that included remaping tables.Apr 27 02:44
oiaohmMess.Apr 27 02:44
oiaohmDebain and Redhat could be merged the same way.Apr 27 02:44
oiaohmThere is really nothing that specal.Apr 27 02:45
jose_Xyes,, part of the issue is in recognizing that when something says they need x, that they can use something else (maybe have the ports reconfigured)Apr 27 02:45
jose_Xyou can leverage patching to fix many issues (pref the projects would incorp the patches)Apr 27 02:45
oiaohmIts the complexity of building the conversion tables.Apr 27 02:45
jose_Xbut all is made better if we standardizeApr 27 02:45
jose_Xprojects don't reveal many of these issuesApr 27 02:46
jose_Xpackagers figure them outApr 27 02:46
oiaohmBack then items like GTK was even in different directories.Apr 27 02:46
oiaohmand named differently.Apr 27 02:46
oiaohmThese days it would not be as painful.Apr 27 02:46
jose_X"packagers figure them out" meaning the people not the swApr 27 02:47
oiaohmlike libgtk-mdk-1.2Apr 27 02:47
jose_XmanuallyApr 27 02:47
oiaohmYes applications did not link to gtkApr 27 02:47
oiaohmthey linked to gtk-mdkApr 27 02:47
_Hicham_wowApr 27 02:47
oiaohmMad the process insanely nasty.Apr 27 02:47
_Hicham_how awfulApr 27 02:48
oiaohmmadeApr 27 02:48
_Hicham_gtk-mdkApr 27 02:48
_Hicham_as if they own gtkApr 27 02:48
_Hicham_how insaneApr 27 02:48
oiaohmCan you now see why I say not that bad today.Apr 27 02:48
_Hicham_but that means breaking package managerApr 27 02:54
_Hicham_which is against distros philosophyApr 27 02:54
oiaohmHowApr 27 02:54
oiaohmWhat I did was not breaking the package manager.Apr 27 02:54
oiaohmIt was putting a more functional package manager in.Apr 27 02:55
oiaohmThe package manager was still managing the package.Apr 27 02:56
oiaohmsApr 27 02:56
oiaohmJust not taking them all from 1 source that is the difference.Apr 27 02:56
oiaohmIdea of distrobution spliting has to exist is basically a myth.Apr 27 02:58
_Hicham_so u rewrited the package manager?Apr 27 02:58
jose_Xthere is information being used to build packages that are known by people here and there but are not standardized.. so we keep reinventing the wheel.. of course, apps change all the time but a push to standardize some things should help out for the future. i don't think lsb covers any of thisApr 27 02:58
oiaohmAltered rpm _Hicham_ lot of the fragments for package aliases end up main line.Apr 27 03:01
oiaohmParts for faking stuff did not end up mainline.Apr 27 03:01
oiaohmOr supporting 2 100 percent incompadible package supply systems.Apr 27 03:02
jose_Xlet's look at an example..Apr 27 03:07
jose_Xan app specifies a bit of config info that designates a range of ports it can use (under circumstances x or versions y say)Apr 27 03:07
jose_Xthe building system on the user's pc will know from this it can move apps around if ports might conflictApr 27 03:08
oiaohmBefore I do my next attempt I am waiting on containers.Apr 27 03:08
jose_Xthis particular prob is resolved already in some cases, but apply that to all sorts of resources that might overlapApr 27 03:08
jose_Xthen you don't need the debian and fedora folks to stay in syncApr 27 03:08
jose_Xrather the apps specify their *needs* and the user can build an interoperable systemApr 27 03:09
jose_Xgetting a deb and an rpm would be different because their might be a conflict which would have to be resolved manually and even then perhaps only if you had the source code which most people don't haveApr 27 03:09
oiaohmWith the network side.  I am waiting on containers.Apr 27 03:10
oiaohmWhere you can issue applications to there own virtual network card.Apr 27 03:11
oiaohmAgain doable from loader.Apr 27 03:11
oiaohmLot of complexity to do what I did will be gone soon.Apr 27 03:11
jose_Xit can be tricky nailing down all the semantics properly.Apr 27 03:11

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