Quick Mention: Marketing Linux Not with FUD

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-19 04:29:06 UTC
Modified: 2007-11-19 04:29:06 UTC

The following fragment of text from a new interview ought to serve as a quick lesson for Novell.

[Q:] Everybody in the Linux scene assumes that when one vendor competes on the basis of legal fear, uncertainty and doubt, programmers are more likely to work for other vendors — since Red Hat has been fairly clean FUD-wise, is this helping to attract talent?

[For Red Hat:] I think that focusing on FUD is not something that resonates the core values in a lot of the open source software community. I think that [ Linux columnist] Jeremy Allison said that his contributions would not support FUD efforts. So, I think our efforts and our mission are not attracting FUD. This helps to attract developers to us. Our developers want to contribute to our work and to keep their eye on open source, as opposed to participating in these FUD campaigns. I think that that is the thing that our CEO always says: "keep your eye on the customer."

Justin Steinman has been spreading Red Hat FUD and arguably Ron Hovsepian as well. In the former case, it sometimes makes you whose side Novell is on; is it Linux or it is Microsoft? Novell truly likes Novell, but does it favour Microsoft's crusade against Red Hat and others when it takes a participatory/idle stance? One thing is for sure: Novell has become as selfish [1, 2, 3] and arrogant [1, 2] as Microsoft. ⬆

BSoD for Novell

Comments

eet

2007-11-19 10:19:47

Very right! Read this and re-consider your evil ways, Roy! Stop spreading FUD about Novell immediately!

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Victor Soliz

2007-11-19 14:24:36

eet, don't be ridiculous. Are you implying this site is FUD?

So, since you are right I will conclude:

- Novell never signed the patent deal with MS. - Novel does not advertise SUSE enterprise against Red hat with FUD and false claims. - Microsoft does not want to push OOXML so we all are dependant on their patents. - There are absolutely no patent issues with MONO. - MS does not try very hard to virtualize Linux on top of windows while making sure that windows is not ever legally virtualized.

Thanks, eet, you have opened my eyes.
eet

2007-11-19 17:02:24

This site is sowing the seed of mischief in the Linux community by trying to spread Fear, Uncertainly and Doubt about the nature of the MS-Novell deal and other deals between MS and Linux vendors and about the respective Linux distributions. It is working to destroy the Linux community from within.

MS is actually the only party that wins by the work or Roy.

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Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-19 21:48:43

eet, don’t be ridiculous. Are you implying this site is FUD?

Whether this site incites fear, well... that may be true. But there is a big difference between perceived fear (made up stuff, aka FUD) and justified fear. The issue at the moment is too apathy among OpenSUSE developers who admittedly ignore the impact of the deal on them. And then you have the users also...
eet

2007-11-19 22:34:42

So there is good FUD and bad FUD in your opinion? Sorry, you FUD is made-up as Microsoft's FUD; you make wild accusations about conspiracies and a coming apocalypse and never realize that apocalypse time is way past schedule, now.

And FUD is always destructive, no matter how good you think your reasons are. If you'd think, as an example, it would be a good thing to destroy, say, the openSUSE-community, then this would make you one bad SOB, I'd say. You are WRONG, Roy. Hear yourself talk and ask yourself 'does a sensible human being talk like that?'.

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SundayRefugee

2007-11-20 20:14:01

No, eet, what you're spewing is a strawman and a red herring. Sometimes real, truthful information can inspire fear. Sometimes a real thing is something to be afraid of. In these cases, knowledge is a good thing.

And then there's what is typically called FUD - disinformation, outright lies, designed to divert FROM reality and cause fear and confusion to achieve a desired end.

Apart from your obvious and continued logical fallacies (again, something I plan to cover in an article in the coming days), I would submit that this site uses the first example. Of course, you will disagree...
eet

2007-11-20 20:43:03

"knowledge is a good thing"

Yes it can; but you have no knowledge.

All you have is baseless accusations, paranoia and slander of the very worst kind.

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Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-20 21:19:28

Disinformation comes from Novell and Microsoft. In fact, they even poison the minds of journalists. To give just one example:

http://boycottnovell.com/2007/03/14/microsoft-hijacks-voice/
eet

2007-11-20 21:23:26

Quote from quotes in your linked 'article':

"Eventually he did make his feelings known, but it would seem HSBC isn’t as concerned about IP infringement as Microsoft."

Tell me who exactly was mind-poisoned here; the journalist who recorded the interview? The HSBC spokesperson who wasn concerned about IP?

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Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-20 21:25:26

FTA: "Well here I was asking the companies’ customer to explain his concerns about intellectual property and he wasn’t being given a chance to speak."

There are more examples with another big one to come (I need approval first).
eet

2007-11-20 21:32:21

Yes, give more examples, please!

And tell me again, who was mind-poisoned? The journalist who recorded that the Novell-spokesperson cut-off (or whatever) the HSBC-spokesperson? The HSBC-spokesperson himself who later _could_ answer and said he wasn't interested in the whole issue?

Where are the evil Novell-ploys in this story? Where are they at all? Except for in your imagination?

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SundayRefugee

2007-11-20 21:45:24

"but you have no knowledge."

Ok, the game in reverse - care to back this up, to prove this, or is this just baseless FUD, random mud-slinging, ad-homs in an attempt to discredit what I may say without being able to disprove me on any technical or factual grounds?

I guess your reply will establish your credibility to some degree.
Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-20 21:51:08

SundayRefugee,

He's spinning for Microsoft now. Next thing you know he'll take the Rick J. role and claim that Microsoft did absolutely nothing wrong in its pursuit for this OOXML rubber stamp. By the way, Rick J. was paid by Microsoft, which makes him a shill.

I did a quick search for 'eet novell' and could see him involved anywhere else. Until he identifies himself, I'll just assume that he shills for Novell and Microsoft.
eet

2007-11-20 21:53:17

Reasoning doesn't work that way round. You don't prove that what other people claim exists doesn't exist. Otherwise I could ask you to prove to me that small, green men from outer-space _aren't_ mind-controlling our politicians, because if you can't it would be true.

Reasoning doesn't work that way round, bro; if you make up wild theories it is _you_ who has to prove them.

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eet

2007-11-20 21:54:52

Roy, have fun researching Beranger's blog a little, it you want to satisfy some curiousity.

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Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-20 21:57:21

I read Beranger regularly. It wouldn't surprise me if you bother him as well whenever he mentions Novell and Mono. He too knows what's going on and writes about it.
eet

2007-11-20 22:02:40

From delusional paranoid to delusional paranoid; but to do him justice, he is much more elegant in his argumentation (more intelligent) and has much, much better taste.

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Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-20 22:05:09

Excellent. Then spend more time over at his Web site and stop harassing this one.
eet

2007-11-20 22:34:50

Well, doesn't time just fly when we're having fun. It has gotten late. I will see you tomorrow. Don't forget to do your homework! :)

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SundayRefugee

2007-11-21 01:09:21

eet, you'd be surprised about my expertise in just that area ;) Let's just say that should you wish to persue the topic in some depth, we'll be going right up my alley, and I am vastly prepared :D

In this case, it is YOU who have made a claim. It is to my knowledge in the area I am commenting on. You cannot back up your statement. Instead, you use a reverse-double-negative and a reverse appeal to authority to back out of a FUD-filled ad-hom.
eet

2007-11-21 10:33:58

If that was an attempt to really create the impression you had some experience in scientifc arguing let's just say it has utterly failed to impress.

I don't have use anything more sophisticated or turn to any more elevated authority than Carl Sagan here. As a child you certainly came into contact with him, little positive effect it might have had on your development.

Nevertheless, his TV-show and books were highly educational, introducing children to basic logic and scientific reasoning. Had you paid more attention to his show as a child you might not have fallen into this trap of false reasoning you're in now.

So, let's go back to pre-school. Your theory of Novell having betrayed Linux to Microsoft's Grand Plan is a 'Dragon in My Garage'. It's a little story by Sagan that actually an analogy. Read it here: http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm

Basically it teaches that anyone can come up with the most absurd allegations that cannot be falsified. The trick is to incorporate non-verifiability into the definition of allegation. If I say, "well, I don't see that dragon of your's?" you answer "oh, he's invisible"; if I say "well, where does Novell say that Linux infringes on MS-patents?" you answer "well, Ballmer says it does so implicitly"; if I say "where is the conspiracy" you answer "it's invisible because it's a conspiracy". So you have incorporated non-verifiability at the very basis of your argument.

Try to falsify my 'little green men' to see what I mean.

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eet

2007-11-21 10:44:08

... replace 'verifiability' with 'falsifiability' above.

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Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-21 11:02:11

“well, where does Novell say that Linux infringes on MS-patents?”

http://boycottnovell.com/2007/06/08/where-did-that-235-patent-number-come-from-again/ There was another item I can't find at the moment about Novell looking at patent portfolios before the deal,

“where is the conspiracy”

http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9793052-16.html http://boycottnovell.com/2007/09/10/moonlight-only-novell/

Put 2 and 2 together.
eet

2007-11-21 11:44:00

Roy, as you might remember from your thesis, when you are required to quote an authority it is not sufficient to quote oneself...

But I'll do you the favor.

Link 1 is summs up as, quote, "where did Microsoft’s OpenOffice.org, Email, GUI, and other patent statistics come from?" This isn't an argument, let alone proof anything. And certainly it doesn't prove anywhere that Novell admitted Linux infringing on anything; quite on the contrary they protested and insisted Linux doesn't infringe on any patents.

Link 2 summs up to the Ballmer quote: "People that use Red Hat, at least with respect to our intellectual property, in a sense have an obligation to compensate us." Ballmer going around threatening people as a way of marketing Windows is nothing new and not proof of a conspiracy, either

Link 3 summs up as only vendors that have an agreement with M$ being able to legitimately bundle Moonlight with their distributions. Well, the same goes for Macromedia and Flash; nothing new. No sign of any conspiracy here, either. Indeed the article itself had a highly defensive undertone.

Roy, why are you constantly linking stuff that doesn't support your point of view at all? Do you hope that readers would be too lazy to actually read the stuff you are linking to?

Also 'put 2 and 2 together' does not count as any kind of reasoning.

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eet

2007-11-21 12:12:00

BTW, the quote that (in full, non-intentionally crippled) citation reads that the users of other Linux distributions than openSUSE will have to _download_ Moonlight _themselves_ instead of having it bundled with their distro relates to openSUSE's moonlight version prospectively coming with legit Windows-Media-support. You can of course compile Moonlight with (illegit) WMV-support via Xine or other legit WMV-support via Fluendo's plugin and still bundle it with any distribution.

I just can't get of this 'putting 2 and 2 together' way of pseudo-reasoning. Heck, that way you can fill up any logical holes or non-existing causalities by power of sheer imagination! What have you studied for! Man, you even graduate! Raise your standards.

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eet

2007-11-21 12:17:52

'get over', I meant

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Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-21 20:03:11

You're still trying to provoke with personal insults. Work on your communication skills if you want detailed answers.
eet

2007-11-21 20:14:22

Don't worry, I don't expect detailed answers from you because I know you're not able to give them. I guess everyone has realized that by now.

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SundayRefugee

2007-11-22 05:46:44

eet, I have extensive training and experience in that area. I see by the tone of your post that you're still falling into the same trap of trying to bait me with your posts, ignoring points brought to you, and condescending. Oh, and trying to use the Flying Spaghetti Monster out of context.

When you can hold a civil, two-way, responsive discussion, I have absolutely no problem doing a back and forth. Until that time, however, I have almost nothing that resembles free-time, and what little I DO have I'm not spending with a troll with his hands over his ears, whose only intent is to pust buttons and upset interested readers. However, holding grudges is not my style, and I'd be more than happy to interact with you should you be able to reasonably post ;)
Roy Schestowitz

2007-11-22 06:33:37

eet's attacks on readers have led to a new policy. Your comment only entered moderation because it contained the (sub)string 'eet' in the body.
eet

2007-11-22 08:42:49

Thus far the answers I got fulfilled my expectations. As with any trolls, the 'Boycott Novell'-crowd were not able to defend their point of view and reacted with outrage to their theory being questioned at all.

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eet

2007-11-22 10:47:54

BTW, you censoring out critical comments leads to an interesting situation: I can still talk to you but you cannot talk back at me. :)

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Quick Mention: Marketing Linux Not with FUD

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