Comments

• Needs Sunlight

  2008-11-29 18:32:02

  Spot on.
  
  Nice example of the smoke screen. It's common for MS media reps to make a lot of noise on a completely different topic when something they'd like to keep hidden surfaces.

• Goblin

  2008-11-29 20:19:32

  When I first went 100% open source at home I had very little interest in the news and workings of MS. I stupidly believed that there were people posting who genuinely believed that MS products were good. I had a few debates with pro MS'ers and thought it was great that people had freedom of choice in that they could use open source / proprietary or a mixture of both.
  
  Then, as I got more interested in the "inner workings" I saw first hand the tactics used by those with financial interest in MS. I saw how they "fudge" facts, create and manipulate statistics and seek to do anything to prevent people from leaving the Microsoft way of things.
  
  It was then I found this site, and unlike a previous MS shiller who claimed that Roy tells me how to think, I had already reached my own conclusions about MS's practices before I came here.
  
  At home, I am simply an average user. An insult that likes to be thrown by an MS shiller with no case is "why dont you move out your parents basement" (to imply that anyone who doesnt use Windows is still living at home with their parents). For the record of MS shillers, I am a family man, with a wife and children and my needs for our home computer are it to be functional, fun and reliable, none of which I got when I used MS products.
  
  Thanks to the MS shillers and underhanded tactics I have seen first hand, I now actively promote open source in the hope that I can introduce someone else to the wonderful (and fun) experiences I have had with it.
  
  Sorry Roy for posting my little rant on your site, however I get fed up seeing those shillers imply that you come from a position other than an honest held belief. I also hope that your new readers notice how a shiller will use ANY tactics (including bringing up autism) in order to peddle their proprietary wares or belittle someone elses view.

• Goblin

  2008-11-29 20:21:57

  Sorry about double post, for clarity my post was refering to yesterdays comments.

• Jo Shields

  2008-11-29 20:47:35

  Who is paying me to "shill"?

• Kovacs

  2008-11-29 21:29:59

  Roy S. criticising journalists for being sensationalist?
  
  Well, there's some irony if I ever have seen some!

• Goblin

  2008-11-29 22:19:46

  @Jo Shields. Im pleased you posted, maybe you can justify why you tried to belittle someone by introducing autism into a conversation in such an insensitive and flippant way. Your arguments fall flat on their face, if, as you tried to put across you hold no worth in Roy's comments, why post here? If I was to post on all the worthless sites Ive visited, it would be a lifetimes work. I believe you and people like you feel threatened by the posts here exposing MS/Novell. IMO People like you seek to fudge facts, distort truth and belittle others.
  
  Ill be honest, I havent seen anyone sink as low as you have, but nonetheless the formula is the same, Jo why do you post here? If you are not paid to do so and hold no worth in what Roy says, why bother?
  
  Moving onto Kovacs: If you fail to grasp that journalists are paid for the articles they have written, and the fact that Roy is doing this out of research and an honest held belief (and hes not paid nor is selling anything) then really Kovacs, you should not be posting as you cannot even grasp the most simplest of concepts.
  
  This site does not seek to prove anything. It merely states the facts that are around us, makes conclusions and encourages people to draw their own. Thats why on a MS site your comments have to be approved before they are published, and why here they are just printed. Opinions can be a very painful subject to some people.
  
  Id suggest you have a long hard think about that.

• Jo Shields

  2008-11-29 22:33:08

  @Jo Shields. Im pleased you posted, maybe you can justify why you tried to belittle someone by introducing autism into a conversation in such an insensitive and flippant way.
  
  It was a hypothesis. It would do a good job of explaining Roy's behaviour patterns, but apparently isn't correct.
  
  Your arguments fall flat on their face, if, as you tried to put across you hold no worth in Roy’s comments, why post here?
  
  Mostly because he's a liar - in itself, no reason to waste my time, but he's a liar about me specifically in several cases - at which point I feel I have the right to defend myself by pointing out the lies. With any luck, people who move on from his lies to the comments will see that he's a liar, and learn not to believe the lies.
  
  Arguing about patents etc is fine. Doing it with lies is not. Sometimes the messenger harms the message. Jack Thompson is an example.
  
  If I was to post on all the worthless sites Ive visited, it would be a lifetimes work. I believe you and people like you feel threatened by the posts here exposing MS/Novell.
  
  "threatened"? The word is "amused". I treat Roy and those who blindly follow his lies the same way I treat flat-earthers - funny and worthy of a little pity.
  
  IMO People like you seek to fudge facts, distort truth and belittle others.
  
  You're confusing me with Roy. He lies constantly. Including about me. He constantly bemoans his own tactics. His groupies, ditto.
  
  Today? I'm away from home, so don't have access to my development machine. I'd be working on Mono packaging otherwise.
  
  Ill be honest, I havent seen anyone sink as low as you have, but nonetheless the formula is the same,
  
  You're new to the Internet, it seems. Calling Roy a liar is stating fact. Hypothesising that Roy has some alternative reason behind his bizarre reasoning is pretty normal - at no point did I state it anything beyond conjecture.
  
  Jo why do you post here? If you are not paid to do so and hold no worth in what Roy says, why bother?
  
  Because it amuses me, and because if one person reading the site learns that Roy is a liar, and he loses a reader, then I feel it was worth my time.
  
  Boycottnovell is fiction, not fact.

• Jo Shields

  2008-11-29 22:37:29

  That didn't work very well. Sigh, I wish I knew how to quote properly on this damn thing.

• AlexH

  2008-11-29 22:39:16

  @Jo: <blockquote> tends to work ok, though it doesn't nest well.

• pcolon

  2008-11-29 22:59:54

  @Goblin: It just seems unfair that when people honestly state reasons why they've become FOSS advocates, they get belittled and vilified for their values.
  
  Good theme at your site: http://openbytes.wordpress.com/

• Goblin

  2008-11-29 23:01:27

  Maybe I didnt make myself clear enough. If what you say is true and IF as you say you want to "clear your name" why have you not sought a legal avenue?
  
  I put it to you that, far from this site being a tissue of lies (and by the way you are insulting my intelligence, as I have conducted my own research and reading) you feel a need to defend the position that you see Roy as a threat to.
  
  Your previous posts didnt read to me as someone who was trying to clear their own name, they read as someone who was using autism in order to in some how discredit Roys topic, which by the way unless Im wrong didnt name, liable or discredit you at all (until you started to comment)
  
  You still havent justified yourself in regards to your autism comment, and regardless of who "is in the right" there is no excuse in the world that can justify how you used a subject such as asperges in such a flippant way. Since I run a computer club that has a group of youths with this condition, I have quite an understanding how the condition can be very distressing to both the person with it and their parents.
  
  Now let me quote you "You’re new to the Internet, it seems. Calling Roy a liar is stating fact. Hypothesising that Roy has some alternative reason behind his bizarre reasoning is pretty normal - at no point did I state it anything beyond conjecture."
  
  Very good. A way to belittle by making me out to be the clueless amateur. Let me give you a little resume of my computing background: I was "online" during the days of the A500 and BBS's. I was around online before compuserve was taken over by AOL and I remember having to pay per minute when accessing the web.
  
  I have written (and contributed to) a few P2P apps, I am involved in the emulation scene in particular the Z80 and Ricoh. My main love is 68k asm, where I use UAE to run my assembler of choice (Argasm/Devpac) and currently am a professional C coder with a small software house providing custom software solutions for manufacturing industry. I have a 2:1 degree and consider myself capable of acting like an adult and making my own mind up.
  
  Now lets look at you. You try (poorly) to cheapen my view. You bring distressing subjects up in an attempt to win an argument. I dont believe Roy has acted like you, and now, not content with that you try to insult me, I really hope people read your vile comments from yesterday, then they can make their own minds up about you.
  
  And to end:
  
  You said "Today? I’m away from home, so don’t have access to my development machine. I’d be working on Mono packaging otherwise"
  
  Theres the answer.

• Jo Shields

  2008-11-29 23:40:08

  Let's give this blockquote thing a try.
  
  

  Maybe I didnt make myself clear enough. If what you say is true and IF as you say you want to “clear your name” why have you not sought a legal avenue?

  
  
  Because this is more fun, and because I don't see the point in pushing a libel case against some kid with too much free time.
  
  

  I put it to you that, far from this site being a tissue of lies (and by the way you are insulting my intelligence, as I have conducted my own research and reading) you feel a need to defend the position that you see Roy as a threat to.

  
  
  I don't see Roy as a threat to any position, I see him as a liar. As I've stated more than once, I don't object to a message, I object to flawed messengers. Call it a personality flaw, but stupidity offends me.
  
  

  Your previous posts didnt read to me as someone who was trying to clear their own name, they read as someone who was using autism in order to in some how discredit Roys topic, which by the way unless Im wrong didnt name, liable or discredit you at all (until you started to comment)

  
  
  I've posted more than once here. Usually (but not exclusively) in reply to one of Roy's smears against me. He's accused me of being stupid, being paid off, pressuring Debian developers, being a graphics API (?), and more.
  
  My hypothesis about Roy... man, people are really focusing on this. Perhaps because they don't want to answer any of the questions asked, because they can't, and because they don't know what "burden of proof" means.
  
  I proposed a hypothesis, based on my own analysis of what could possibly represent the behaviour exhibited. I don't doubt the courage of his convictions, I doubt his methods - methods which show either calculated lies, or simple mental blocks. Apparently my hypothesis is wrong, which I'm willing to accept.
  
  

  You still havent justified yourself in regards to your autism comment,

  
  
  Sure I did. More than once.
  
  

  and regardless of who “is in the right” there is no excuse in the world that can justify how you used a subject such as asperges in such a flippant way. Since I run a computer club that has a group of youths with this condition, I have quite an understanding how the condition can be very distressing to both the person with it and their parents.

  
  
  And I've known more than a few myself. And can recognise patterns. And blah blah blah. Roy said the hypothesis was wrong, I accept that.
  
  

  Now let me quote you “You’re new to the Internet, it seems. Calling Roy a liar is stating fact. Hypothesising that Roy has some alternative reason behind his bizarre reasoning is pretty normal - at no point did I state it anything beyond conjecture.”

  
  
  Sounds like me. Roy is a liar.
  
  

  Very good. A way to belittle by making me out to be the clueless amateur. Let me give you a little resume of my computing background: I was “online” during the days of the A500 and BBS’s. I was around online before compuserve was taken over by AOL and I remember having to pay per minute when accessing the web.
  
  I have written (and contributed to) a few P2P apps, I am involved in the emulation scene in particular the Z80 and Ricoh. My main love is 68k asm, where I use UAE to run my assembler of choice (Argasm/Devpac) and currently am a professional C coder with a small software house providing custom software solutions for manufacturing industry. I have a 2:1 degree and consider myself capable of acting like an adult and making my own mind up.

  
  
  The Internet is serious business, apparently.
  
  I wasn't aware this was a dick-waving contest. "Man, your behaviour patterns lead me to hypothesize that there must be some reason for it" is genuinely the worst thing you've ever seen on the Internet? Really?
  
  

  Now lets look at you. You try (poorly) to cheapen my view. You bring distressing subjects up in an attempt to win an argument.

  
  
  I really don't care about your view. And if it's not true, it's not distressing. If it IS true, my opinion of him is raised as I no longer think he's merely a liar.
  
  

  I dont believe Roy has acted like you,

  
  
  Wrong. But if I suggest you haven't been reading very carefully, you'll attack me for it rather than answering the issues.
  
  

  and now, not content with that you try to insult me, I really hope people read your vile comments from yesterday, then they can make their own minds up about you.

  
  
  The Internet is serious business.
  
  If you reached your conclusions about whatever it is being argued about (I've lost track, but that's the point) then fine - but that puts you in the minority of those who surround Roy.
  
  "Insult" you? I really can't be bothered. I, again, proposed a hypothesis based on exhibited patterns. Throwing a wobbly at one comment on an Internet of girls sharing cups is... well... honestly, that's not something I'd expect anyone who ISN'T new to the Internet to do. Since you apparently helped forge the first 4004 in the fires of Mount Doom, then I go with an alternative hypothesis.
  
  This is, of course, an effort to distract from Roy's lies.
  
  

  And to end:
  
  You said “Today? I’m away from home, so don’t have access to my development machine. I’d be working on Mono packaging otherwise”
  
  Theres the answer.

  
  
  The "answer" to what, exactly?
  
  Please quote credible sources - boycottnovell is fiction, not fact.

• Goblin

  2008-11-29 23:42:08

  @Pcolon Thanks for mentioning my site!, although my site is not up to the same level as Roy's! All I want to achieve with mine is a simple to read blog for newcomers or those interested becoming.
  
  I only get about 40 hits a day!
  
  The theme is by Andreas04 by Andreas Viklund and Im still working on getting the blog "just right", although I get distracted easily with other posting. I am always open to other people posting articles on it.

• Goblin

  2008-11-30 00:05:05

  @Jo Come on Jo. You said "Because this is more fun, and because I don’t see the point in pushing a libel case against some kid with too much free time." and you expect to be taken seriously? - before you answer that you dont care, then I go back to my original point, if you dont care why bother posting?
  
  You said "I wasn’t aware this was a dick-waving contest. “Man, your behaviour patterns lead me to hypothesize that there must be some reason for it” is genuinely the worst thing you’ve ever seen on the Internet? Really?"
  
  Firstly, am I wrong when I say that it was YOU who questioned my experience and implied that as an explanation for siding with Roy? - Please dont fudge the issue. I personally dont hold any worth in someone just because of a CV. I judge people as I find them. I find you lacking.
  
  You said "Wrong. But if I suggest you haven’t been reading very carefully, you’ll attack me for it rather than answering the issues."
  
  Ok, I have read, and I see Roy as having the moral highground. Provide links to your evidence or stop making claims.
  
  You said "“Insult” you? I really can’t be bothered. "
  
  If you cant be bothered, why should Roys postings be any concern to you whatsoever?
  
  You said "f you reached your conclusions about whatever it is being argued about (I’ve lost track, but that’s the point) then fine - but that puts you in the minority of those who surround Roy."
  
  Perhaps I had better remind you then, I argued with the vile way you put across your point of view. I argued with your claim that Roy was telling lies and I wondered why you came here?
  
  When you asked about my final comment. You mention Mono, Roy has highlighted Mono here, I dont know what your real involvement is in that project and I dont particularly care, but it certainly would explain your Anti-Roy posting.
  
  I will end on a comment which IMO really highlights the position that you come from.
  
  "is genuinely the worst thing you’ve ever seen on the Internet? Really?"
  
  Of course not, but that doesnt make it any better. The fact that you say that means to me you really have no sense of decency, and even IF Roy had insulted you, it still would not justify it.

• Jo Shields

  2008-11-30 00:30:43

  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/15/monument-of-mono/ - frankly bizarre attempt to discredit me based on a pseudonym picked at secondary school
  
  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/21/irc-log-20112008-2/#tNov%2020%2020:07:49 - the "big reveal" on my motives (and apparently employers). All made up, of course.
  
  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/16/irc-log-15112008/#tNov%2015%2022:09:23 - The early days of the big discredit, and suggestion that I'm paid off for my packaging. Guess whether those questions were actually asked, rather than answers invented. Not that half of it is anyone's business - nor even secret.
  
  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/21/mono-and-moonlight-bait/ - Part of the "make things up about Ubuntu" campaign, linking to a post I made to ubuntu-devel, and suggesting I'm doing work for Microsoft
  
  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/10/07/microsoft-influence-in-novell/ - accusing me of having a "swayed careless mind"
  
  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/18/resolving-the-mono-problem/ - accusing me of being paid to work on Mono packaging, and having vested interests in it
  
  I'd carry on, but I think Roy has more than enough fascinating google referrer stats to make up a conspiracy with for now.

• Goblin

  2008-11-30 00:45:12

  Thank you for the links, I will do you the courtesy of reading them and then posting my opinions (although dont expect that tonight as It looks like alot of reading and since Roy puts alot of work into his site, I dont get a chance to read all his work)
  
  You havent answered any of my Q's nor have you provided a proper explanation for your behaviour, but hey, this will just go around in circles and at the end of the day, your comments will be judged by everyone else reading this.
  
  Whoever you are and whatever the truth is you will have to stand by your previous behaviour, as its printed here now and I dont believe Roy deletes anything.
  
  I do hope in future you can at least keep away from subjects which could cause offense.

• Jo Shields

  2008-11-30 00:47:29

  @Jo Come on Jo. You said “Because this is more fun, and because I don’t see the point in pushing a libel case against some kid with too much free time.” and you expect to be taken seriously? - before you answer that you dont care, then I go back to my original point, if you dont care why bother posting?

  
  
  Already answered. As for "do I expect to be taken seriously"... There are fairly clear and overly powerful libel laws in this country. When I say I can't be bothered, I really mean it. I don't have the imagination to make things up.
  
  

  You said “I wasn’t aware this was a dick-waving contest. “Man, your behaviour patterns lead me to hypothesize that there must be some reason for it” is genuinely the worst thing you’ve ever seen on the Internet? Really?”
  
  Firstly, am I wrong when I say that it was YOU who questioned my experience and implied that as an explanation for siding with Roy?

  
  
  Yes. I questioned your experience and implied that as an explanation for flipping out at a small section of a post, which I'll concede was incorrect.
  
  

  - Please dont fudge the issue. I personally dont hold any worth in someone just because of a CV. I judge people as I find them. I find you lacking.

  
  
  :'(
  
  

  You said “Wrong. But if I suggest you haven’t been reading very carefully, you’ll attack me for it rather than answering the issues.”
  
  Ok, I have read, and I see Roy as having the moral highground. Provide links to your evidence or stop making claims.

  
  
  Things relating to me personally, see previous post. General lies about Ubuntu, Debian, and others, see on a per-post basis.
  
  

  You said ““Insult” you? I really can’t be bothered. ”
  
  If you cant be bothered, why should Roys postings be any concern to you whatsoever?

  
  
  Because people believe his lies, and regurgitate them in places that cause me annoyance, such as development IRC channels or help forums.
  
  If he were presenting coherent, rational debate, then I wouldn't blame him for the actions of others. If he could decide between being a serious resource and an amateur blog, that would be nice for all concerned.
  
  

  You said “f you reached your conclusions about whatever it is being argued about (I’ve lost track, but that’s the point) then fine - but that puts you in the minority of those who surround Roy.”
  
  Perhaps I had better remind you then, I argued with the vile way you put across your point of view. I argued with your claim that Roy was telling lies and I wondered why you came here?

  
  
  To educate the ignorant. The stupid are a lost cause, but the ignorant can at least learn when and where to apply grains (or more) of salt to their sources.
  
  

  When you asked about my final comment. You mention Mono, Roy has highlighted Mono here, I dont know what your real involvement is in that project and I dont particularly care, but it certainly would explain your Anti-Roy posting.

  
  
  My Anti-Roy posting is because I dislike liars.
  
  As I've said more than once, I firmly believe in some of the positions he claims to support - and if not in those points, that someone should analyse them. But sometimes the messenger harms the message. Jack Thompson is an example. Serious discussion is impossible when the poster child for one of the "sides" is demonstrably lying an enormous amount of the time, as JT did (and Roy does)
  
  

  I will end on a comment which IMO really highlights the position that you come from.
  
  “is genuinely the worst thing you’ve ever seen on the Internet? Really?”
  
  Of course not, but that doesnt make it any better. The fact that you say that means to me you really have no sense of decency, and even IF Roy had insulted you, it still would not justify it.

  
  
  I have a sense of decency, but due to a previously mentioned character flaw, it can be withdrawn at short notice when a situation demands it.

• Goblin

  2008-11-30 01:09:15

  I really must stop responding and biting. But I will tell you why you (IMO) are wrong on so many levels:
  
  1. Youre assumption that people are not able to make up their own minds.
  
  2. Youre assumption that YOU are the one that needs to be here to tell us the "truth"
  
  3. Youre assumption that people will accept what you say over Roy, and that people actually do do their own research and either agree or dont.
  
  4. Youre theory that you shouldnt (or dont need to) take action (and I mean legal) over any comment which you believe is wrong. If it was me I would certainly seek recourse through the courts, not necessarily for financial recompense but for the stating of the true fact and suitable retraction.
  
  5. Youre arrogance is as huge as your faith in people believing what you are saying. On one hand you call Roy a liar and on the other you presume because of this people will listen to what you say they should and believe what you write on a blog/site. This was clear to me with your comment "To educate the ignorant. The stupid are a lost cause, but the ignorant can at least learn when and where to apply grains (or more) of salt to their sources."
  
  Maybe you could tell us what your involvement with the Mono project is. Speaking as someone who is unfortunately locked into the .net (sic) at work id love to know. (and before you call me a hypocrite, I work for a software house, not run one, my employee status means that my open source belief has to take second place in order to pay the mortgage and feed the children, that doesnt mean though I have to have proprietary in my home)
  
  and finally if I quote you: "Yes. I questioned your experience and implied that as an explanation for flipping out at a small section of a post, which I’ll concede was incorrect."
  
  What about an apology then?
  
  Do you think I cant make my own mind up?
  
  Do you think I am easily led?
  
  Do you think Roy has brainwashed me?

• Jo Shields

  2008-11-30 01:35:40

  I really must stop responding and biting. But I will tell you why you (IMO) are wrong on so many levels:
  
  1. Youre assumption that people are not able to make up their own minds.

  
  
  A depressing number of people aren't.
  
  

  2. Youre assumption that YOU are the one that needs to be here to tell us the “truth”

  
  
  As opposed to whom? Or simply leaving lies unchallenged?
  
  

  3. Youre assumption that people will accept what you say over Roy, and that people actually do do their own research and either agree or dont.

  
  
  I don't expect them to believe what I say over Roy without evidence. However, I provide it (e.g. disproving his still-unretracted lies about Ubuntu 9.04 w/ package publication dates)
  
  

  4. Youre theory that you shouldnt (or dont need to) take action (and I mean legal) over any comment which you believe is wrong. If it was me I would certainly seek recourse through the courts, not necessarily for financial recompense but for the stating of the true fact and suitable retraction.

  
  
  Roy pushes, what, 5-10 posts a day, every day? I simply don't have that kind of time. I'll settle for proving him to be lying when he lies, for now.
  
  

  5. Youre arrogance is as huge as your faith in people believing what you are saying. On one hand you call Roy a liar and on the other you presume because of this people will listen to what you say they should and believe what you write on a blog/site. This was clear to me with your comment “To educate the ignorant. The stupid are a lost cause, but the ignorant can at least learn when and where to apply grains (or more) of salt to their sources.”

  
  
  For some reason, I still have a shred of faith in humanity. The truth will out - although not necessarily until the comments section.
  
  

  Maybe you could tell us what your involvement with the Mono project is. Speaking as someone who is unfortunately locked into the .net (sic) at work id love to know. (and before you call me a hypocrite, I work for a software house, not run one, my employee status means that my open source belief has to take second place in order to pay the mortgage and feed the children, that doesnt mean though I have to have proprietary in my home)

  
  
  I'm a contributor to Ubuntu, and contribute by helping the Debian Mono team (to maximize quality & minimize developer time & effort), and run a backport repository for Ubuntu LTS releases. And before Roy brings it up, that means I have commit rights to the mono-project.com webpage, to allow me to update the page relating to Debian/Mono package installation as required.
  
  I personally gain nothing from my work - I enjoy the technical challenge, and enjoy helping to make using Ubuntu a more pleasant and compelling platform for users - especially in lieu of proprietary platforms like Mac OS or Windows.
  
  I have no particular interest in Tomboy or F-Spot being part of the default Ubuntu desktop - but I have a strong feeling that the Ubuntu desktop should use simply the best applications for any task (which the Desktop team feels means those two apps), and have a STRONG sense of moral outrage about FUD being used to tell Free Software developers what they can and cannot do, especially when picking a language to develop with.
  
  

  and finally if I quote you: “Yes. I questioned your experience and implied that as an explanation for flipping out at a small section of a post, which I’ll concede was incorrect.”
  
  What about an apology then?

  
  
  I'm sorry I offended you so much, although I still don't see it as being as bad as you do. I'm not sorry for presenting a hypothesis. And unlike Roy, I'm not going to later refer to a disproven hypothesis as fact - hypothesis presented, hypothesis rejected, hypothesis deceased, I'm happy enough with that order of events.
  
  

  Do you think I cant make my own mind up?

  
  
  I think we've been too distracted by tangential topics for me to even begin to answer that - although as is always the case, I have a background level of apprehension that you might take this site as having a grounding in reality, and therefore that you may have factored it into your analyses.
  
  Boycottnovell is fiction, not fact.
  
  

  Do you think I am easily led?

  
  
  I don't know. Are you?
  
  

  Do you think Roy has brainwashed me?

  
  
  Follows on from the previous question, really.
  
  There's a simple test. When you see a swiftly GIMPed image of logos being glued together, or of Miguel eating a baby, or somesuch, do you roll your eyes, or do you say to yourself "yeah, that'll show 'em"?

• Goblin

  2008-11-30 02:17:53

  @Jo Its late here in the UK, I wont post again until tomorrow. Like I say we can go around in circles in regards to the moral highground on a subject that has distracted from the topic Roy started with.
  
  I dont know you, however if what you say is correct about your support of Ubuntu then thats great, but thats hardly the issue at hand.
  
  Regardless of my views of Mono/MS/Novell. I use the Ibex. I have always stated this and I believe Roy stated on IRC that he uses Ubuntu aswell on one of his machines. (Open and honest - take note MS-shillers)
  
  I will certainly post back to you again. But as I say, after Ive read the links youve listed.
  
  I will not support Mono in any circumstances, and I have reasons independent of this sites views for not doing so.
  
  I will be happy to elaborate, when I can put my coding head back on and the hour is not so late.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-11-30 09:08:14

  I don't have time to respond to each point individually (I went out to a friend's birthday last night, so I had no chance to reply immediately).
  
  An attempt to gag a critic labels those who accuse them intolerant. I use this Web site to express my own opinion and you attempt to deprive me of this privilege, Jo.
  
  As Rainer Weikusat put it when Bruce Byfield attacked me, "'Tolerating' an opinion just means to not otherwise try to prevent people from voicing it except by arguments to the contrary. This implies that people who call publishing an opinion which is not in line with some or all of their own 'intolerant' are actually themselves guilty of being intolerant."

• jo Shields

  2008-11-30 13:22:12

  You're welcome to your opinion. Lying on the other hand is just sad.
  
  I don't disagree with some of the core points you claim to support. I disagree with your attempt to convince others of those positions based on a foundation of deceit and lies. It's harmful to Free Software.
  
  Boycottnovell is fiction, not fact.
  
  It's extremely difficult to take serious topics seriously, when basic topics are lied about. The proverbial "boy who cried wolf". Foundation in fact is KEY to trustworthiness.

• Michael

  2008-12-01 02:17:48

  Why feed the troll? I think you're just wasting your time. Kids like that have nothing better to do and get enjoyment out of getting people worked up. They have their fun, but eventually grow out of it or just end up leading sad and pathetic lives if they cannot. The shallowness and immaturity of the comments speak for themselves and don't really need refuting.
  
  Goblin - nice to see another m68K 'fan' about. I used to love Devpac, but unfortunately I lost enthusiasm to write any 68K code many years ago - faulty hardware, disappearing company, cheap pc's + gnu/linux and alternative things to do with my time. Definitely fond memories though. I too somehow ended up writing .net - although I hate it, the money is good and the job is easy and very flexible. It also gives me the experience to say without qualification that it is really crappy technology that GNU/Linux would do better without, and that the resources would be better spent almost anywhere else.

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 08:20:50

  Why feed the troll? I think you’re just wasting your time. Kids like that have nothing better to do and get enjoyment out of getting people worked up. They have their fun, but eventually grow out of it or just end up leading sad and pathetic lives if they cannot. The shallowness and immaturity of the comments speak for themselves and don’t really need refuting.

  
  
  But people really DO believe his lies. For some reason.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-01 08:26:00

  They are lies in the minds of those to whom it's an inconvenient truth.

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 10:51:12

  They are lies in the minds of those to whom it’s an inconvenient truth.

  
  
  You are *CONSTANTLY* called out on deliberate lies, Roy. You just choose to never respond to them. Because they are an inconvenient REALITY.
  
  Take the Ubuntu 9.04 comments as pretty concrete proof. You declined twice to respond to the fact that you were lying, with specific citations and proof of why you were lying.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-01 11:02:37

  No, the facts in that posts were all defensible. Yours were a matter of perspective and that's the nature of an opinion.

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 11:21:34

  So... saying "this is slipping in secretly" when 1) it's been in for 3 years and 2) has been announced multiple times to all relevant mailing lists....... is perspective?
  
  Quite -_-

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-01 11:24:19

  I can't remember (nor find) any incident where I said this. Can you help, please?

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 11:35:35

  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/28/microsoft-winforms-ubuntu/

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-01 11:39:23

  I didn't say this was "slipping in secretly.” I wrote "THERE IS still a chance to stop it."
  
  You're making up claims I did not make.

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 11:44:49

  RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.
  
  

  While the World is Asleep, Mono with Microsoft-patented WinForms Slips into Ubuntu 9.04

  
  
  Explain the meaning of: "While the World is Asleep", "Mono with Microsoft-patented WinForms" and "Slips into Ubuntu 9.04"

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-01 11:50:08

  “While the World is Asleep” = Thanksgiving. Mind the date and subheadline.
  
  “Mono with Microsoft-patented WinForms” = Yup.
  
  http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/02/12/25/213255.shtml
  
  

  Mono also implements parts of .NET that have NOT been submitted to ECMA and ISO standards. Those parts of Mono lack even the protection for IP infringement with re-implementation that ISO documentation licensing implies.

  
  
  “Slips into Ubuntu 9.04″ = Mono 2.0 does slip into Ubuntu, but it can still be rejected at this early stage (first alpha),

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 11:54:11

  Mono has had Winforms support for several years.
  
  Ubuntu has had Winforms packages for several years.
  
  What's different other than a routine version number bump?
  
  As for the thanksgiving thing, "the World"? Seriously? You're not even American!

• pcolon

  2008-12-01 12:03:29

  What does place of origin/citizenry have to do with "The World"?

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-01 12:08:18

  Mono has had Winforms support for several years.

  
  
  Thank goodness! That makes it OK.
  
  

  Ubuntu has had Winforms packages for several years.

  
  
  Thank goodness! That makes it 'safe'.
  
  

  What’s different other than a routine version number bump?

  
  
  Continued and enhanced perpetuation. So tell me, when does it become impractical to isolate Mono applications from GNOME? In the practical/pragmatic sense, not just the technical one...
  
  

  As for the thanksgiving thing, “the World”? Seriously? You’re not even American!

  
  
  Some of my family is. Most readers of this Web site are based on the US as well.

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 12:17:25

  Thank goodness! That makes it OK.

  
  
  I didn't say that. I said nothing has changed this time, beyond a routine version bump.
  
  

  Thank goodness! That makes it ’safe’.

  
  
  I didn't say that. I said nothing has changed this time, beyond a routine version bump.
  
  

  Continued and enhanced perpetuation. So tell me, when does it become impractical to isolate Mono applications from GNOME? In the practical/pragmatic sense, not just the technical one…

  
  
  When does it become impractical? Hmm... round about when some "core" thing, rather than simple apps, require it? Sounds about right.
  
  

  Some of my family is. Most readers of this Web site are based on the US as well.

  
  
  So "The World" means "Roy"
  
  Very revealing ^_^

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 12:18:19

  What does place of origin/citizenry have to do with “The World”?

  
  
  Thanksgiving is an American celebration. "The World" doesn't give a crap about it.

• Roy Schestowitz

  2008-12-01 12:28:00

  Thanksgiving is an American celebration. “The World” doesn’t give a crap about it.

  
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

• pcolon

  2008-12-01 12:31:13

  OK, Thanks. I'll let part of my family in Brasil & Guatemala know that. Foolish people, they should "give a crap about" something else.

• jo Shields

  2008-12-01 12:32:31

  So you're calling "figure of speech" on the first third. Handy.
  
  You still haven't pointed out what's different in the second point between, say, 1.9.1 (Intrepid) and 2.0.1 (Jaunty), or what "slips" is meant to mean given the well-publicized package transition.