04.21.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 20th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 2:38 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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Balrog_ well I want to protect myself here :/ Apr 20 00:00
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/… Apr 20 00:00
schestowitz There’s more like this, I investigated this in 2007 Apr 20 00:00
tacone also posts are very short. kind of lazy advocate uh ? Apr 20 00:00
schestowitz Balrog: protect identity? Apr 20 00:01
Balrog_ not exactly, but I don’t want to reveal much about certain people I talk about Apr 20 00:01
Balrog_ (in public) Apr 20 00:01
Balrog_ who knows who’s looking at these logs Apr 20 00:01
tacone stop this and go pm Apr 20 00:01
Balrog_ tacone: I want to but “schestowitz: Balrog: better public” Apr 20 00:02
tacone it was for both. just pm him Apr 20 00:02
tacone it will be faster than discussing here. Apr 20 00:02
schestowitz How to make GNOME more like mac OS X? Infect it with Microsoft, says this person: http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/200… Apr 20 00:07
tacone i read that. Apr 20 00:08
silentivm opening Apr 20 00:08
tacone good post btw Apr 20 00:08
schestowitz Balrog: I seee… Apr 20 00:08
schestowitz Sounds like a kickback programme Apr 20 00:08
tacone i wish gnome-do was c++/python Apr 20 00:08
schestowitz If so, they should be slammed for it Apr 20 00:09
silentivm I tried gnome-do once, couldn’t stand it Apr 20 00:09
silentivm even though, at the time, I didn’t know it was Mono Apr 20 00:09
schestowitz There’s no room for marketing fear to sell stuff, but this is sometimes sone Apr 20 00:09
schestowitz *done Apr 20 00:09
silentivm and I don’t find Mac OS X that cool, either Apr 20 00:09
tacone gnome do is a strong product. period. Apr 20 00:09
silentivm yes Apr 20 00:09
schestowitz But Mac is CCCCCCCCCCCCOOOOOOOOOOOOLL Apr 20 00:09
tacone unless some one comes up with something better, then that’s here to stay. Apr 20 00:09
tacone Mac sucks, i can tell you first hand. Apr 20 00:10
schestowitz GNOME-pooh Apr 20 00:10
tacone gnome is better. Apr 20 00:10
silentivm most of my friends swear for OS X, even though they have never used a Mac Apr 20 00:10
silentivm just because they say it “looks cool”, they want a Mac Apr 20 00:10
tacone silentivm: put them on macosx for 2 hours, they’ll change their mind and go back to windows. Apr 20 00:11
Balrog_ I know people who bash OS X and Linux when they haven’t tried it recently Apr 20 00:11
tacone there’s a reason why windows rules mac. Apr 20 00:11
silentivm yep Apr 20 00:11
Balrog_ tacone: you’ll find that’s the case 2-5% of the time Apr 20 00:11
tacone if you have to choose between win jail and mac jail you’ll often choose win jail. Apr 20 00:12
Balrog_ and with app development, I can’t ./configure, make, and make install on Windows Apr 20 00:12
Balrog_ can do so on a Mac Apr 20 00:12
tacone i was amazed to discover how much better was gnome. not jocking here. Apr 20 00:12
silentivm seriously, I guess I would feel locked in OS X Apr 20 00:12
tacone gnome just need to come out their stupid mentality. but it’s already better. Apr 20 00:12
silentivm I don’t like visual eye candy Apr 20 00:12
tacone try to burn a cd on a mac. Apr 20 00:12
Balrog_ tacone: you mean an ISO? Apr 20 00:13
tacone try to install iLife. Apr 20 00:13
tacone yes I mean an Iso. complete mess. Apr 20 00:13
silentivm but then, I’m an *box user… :) Apr 20 00:13
Balrog_ disk utility does it very easily Apr 20 00:13
tacone there are 2 ways to do that. and one doesn’t work Apr 20 00:13
tacone the other one sucks. Apr 20 00:13
Balrog_ it can create iso as well, but calls it .cdr Apr 20 00:13
schestowitz http://fraises.blogspot.com/20… Brown.. :-( Apr 20 00:13
Balrog_ I use Disk Utility to burn iso images all the time, works every time Apr 20 00:13
tacone Balrog: you’re on macosx ? Apr 20 00:14
Balrog_ some of the time, I am. Apr 20 00:14
Balrog_ I use Gentoo other times Apr 20 00:14
tacone ok. so you know the thing. Apr 20 00:15
Balrog_ as well as Ubuntu and Fedora less often Apr 20 00:15
Balrog_ yes. Apr 20 00:15
tacone is that that better ? Apr 20 00:15
Balrog_ is what better? Apr 20 00:15
tacone macosx. than gnome. Apr 20 00:15
tacone as a desktop environment. Apr 20 00:15
Balrog_ heh, Mac OS X is a decent desktop environment because of a few features that others don’t feel like implementing. Also because of Objective-C and Cocoa (AKA NEXTSTEP frameworks). There’s GNUStep but it lacks maintainers. Yes, it has limitations, but it’s much superior to windows Apr 20 00:17
Balrog_ I use Xfce and GNOME otherwise Apr 20 00:17
tacone how does it compares to gnome ? Apr 20 00:17
schestowitz Email applications < http://www.emmajane.net/node/910 >. Linus still uses pine BTW. it has been EOLed for like a year Apr 20 00:17
tacone emmajane zomg Apr 20 00:17
Balrog_ Gnome is workable, but it compares to windows sort of. I prefer Qt over GTK+ though Apr 20 00:18
schestowitz Qt ftw Apr 20 00:18
silentivm I like Qt Apr 20 00:18
tacone no Apr 20 00:18
Balrog_ KDE4.2 is nice, but it’s still somewhat unstable :/ Apr 20 00:18
tacone how does gnome compares to macosx Apr 20 00:18
tacone i never really gave macosx a real chance Apr 20 00:18
Balrog_ meaning from user-end or programmer-end? Apr 20 00:18
schestowitz Ubuntu gives GNOME an ‘ugly’ reputation it does not desere, IMHO Apr 20 00:18
tacone but i find it’s cluncky Apr 20 00:19
tacone and not well thought. Apr 20 00:19
tacone end user Apr 20 00:19
tacone usability. Apr 20 00:19
tacone schestowitz: ? Apr 20 00:19
tacone ugly rep ? suse looks horrible Apr 20 00:19
Balrog_ well, for me it works well. Application-based switching is a big plus (for me) Apr 20 00:19
tacone and fedora is no better than ubuntu, beside a better wallpaper Apr 20 00:19
balzac They need someone who really understands software to be in a position of great authority at gnome Apr 20 00:19
balzac someone who can axe the dumb ideas Apr 20 00:20
Balrog_ cmd-tab to switch apps, cmd-` to switch windows Apr 20 00:20
tacone balzac: they should stop being stupid hackers playing the smart-ass of the town Apr 20 00:20
balzac their focus should be on usability Apr 20 00:20
balzac decorative aspects should be a much lower priority Apr 20 00:21
tacone balzac: it already is. Apr 20 00:21
Balrog_ yes. Apr 20 00:21
tacone but they assume to know everything on it Apr 20 00:21
tacone and assume usability to be a good excuse for lazyness Apr 20 00:21
balzac well, usability from the point of view of someone who really, really gets it. Apr 20 00:21
tacone for them usability is 3 to 5 options in each window Apr 20 00:21
balzac that means, keeping the marketing people who say “make it like apple, make it like windows” out of the action Apr 20 00:22
tacone progressive discovery is accepted but never implemented. Apr 20 00:22
Balrog_ 3 to 5 options …..? Apr 20 00:22
tacone yeah. Apr 20 00:22
schestowitz tacone: I like the SUSE theme, not Ubuntu’s Apr 20 00:22
balzac but the problem of fluff-heads is endemic in software industry Apr 20 00:22
tacone how many options have every preference window? Apr 20 00:22
tacone /kick schestowitz Apr 20 00:22
Balrog_ depends on where you look. If you compare 10.1 and 10.5, 10.5 has a lot more options Apr 20 00:23
balzac there needs to be a benevolent dictator to be the shot-caller, and I’m volunteering myself for the job Apr 20 00:23
schestowitz :-) Apr 20 00:23
Balrog_ the 10.6 betas (which I’m not supposed to talk about :P ) have even more options Apr 20 00:23
schestowitz   /keep tacone Apr 20 00:24
tacone :) Apr 20 00:24
balzac Also, Mark Shuttleworth should appoint me to be his right-hand henchman Apr 20 00:24
schestowitz “(which I’m not supposed to talk about” ??/ Apr 20 00:24
balzac I’d get stuff don Apr 20 00:24
Balrog_ heh, I’d dispute that :P Apr 20 00:25
tacone oh Apr 20 00:25
tacone ayatata Apr 20 00:25
tacone or whatever Apr 20 00:25
tacone https://launchpad.net/ayatana Apr 20 00:25
tacone https://lists.canonical.com/mailm… Apr 20 00:25
balzac I’d make a commitment to sacrifice one ego per day for the entertainment of all Apr 20 00:25
tacone this is the project which the new notifications belong to. Apr 20 00:25
balzac bread and circus, breaking eggs, making omlettes Apr 20 00:26
balzac french toast Apr 20 00:26
Balrog_ tacone: take a look at growl Apr 20 00:26
tacone the project that should bring the new experience to ubuntu. Apr 20 00:26
Balrog_ http://www.growl.info/ Apr 20 00:26
tacone Balrog_: not just notifications Apr 20 00:26
tacone growl is not anymore mantained. Apr 20 00:26
Balrog_ I’ve used this for a while, and Ubuntu seems to be doing something very similar. Apr 20 00:26
Balrog_ growl for mac Apr 20 00:26
tacone i know. Apr 20 00:26
tacone it’s not about that. Apr 20 00:27
Balrog_ it is maintained, I talk to the devs sometimes Apr 20 00:27
schestowitz SELinux………? A Secure OS For the Dalai Lama? < http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?s… > Apr 20 00:27
tacone i mean, that’s the project that will be used to develop the new desktop experience. Apr 20 00:27
Balrog_ yeah, a similar implementation for Ubuntu Apr 20 00:27
tacone no Apr 20 00:27
tacone not only notifications Apr 20 00:27
schestowitz http://boredandblogging.com/2009… Apr 20 00:28
schestowitz Found some while ago BTW Apr 20 00:28
tacone yes schestowitz Apr 20 00:28
tacone that’s the project to keep an eye onto to know which projects has mark on desktop experience. Apr 20 00:28
schestowitz Sounds like some Incan word Apr 20 00:28
balzac http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/… Apr 20 00:28
tacone buddhist Apr 20 00:28
tacone sphere of senses Apr 20 00:28
balzac hugo chavez assigned barack obama some homework Apr 20 00:28
schestowitz Brilliant Apr 20 00:29
schestowitz Chavez is there to help the US understand it can’t just boss the world, I guee Apr 20 00:29
schestowitz BTW, Chavez reads and openly crecommends Chomsky Apr 20 00:29
balzac Chavez is cool Apr 20 00:30
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watc… Apr 20 00:30
schestowitz Balrog: Biden calls Chavez a “tyrant” Apr 20 00:30
schestowitz balzac: gotta love the phoro Apr 20 00:31
schestowitz Add the caption.. Apr 20 00:31
schestowitz Obama: “me? Learn? lolz” Chavez: “wait until he gets a taste of *that*” Apr 20 00:32
balzac roy, there was a better photo which was removed Apr 20 00:32
balzac a moment before, chavez came up while President Obama was seated and handed him the book Apr 20 00:33
balzac Obama stood up, so as not to have Hugo standing over him Apr 20 00:33
schestowitz Hehe. Apr 20 00:33
balzac I tried to find that pic after it was taken offline in my browser cache Apr 20 00:33
balzac and then I found that it’s not easy to find specific items in my FF cache Apr 20 00:33
balzac I asked specific questions in #firefox Apr 20 00:34
balzac I should try the mozilla irc server Apr 20 00:34
schestowitz Obama is Apr 20 00:34
schestowitz 6’1″ Apr 20 00:34
schestowitz So Chavez must be short and chubby Apr 20 00:34
balzac yeah Apr 20 00:34
balzac but Chavez could probably hit a baseball further than Obama Apr 20 00:34
balzac Another time, a picture of Michelle Obama’s behind got cropped Apr 20 00:35
balzac she was wearing some tight slacks which were riding up Apr 20 00:35
balzac she was with Carla Bruni, Sarkozy’s woman Apr 20 00:35
balzac so she was “tarting up” a bit Apr 20 00:35
schestowitz Mandriva 2009.1 RC2: http://pbs01.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/a… Mandriva employs some of their best devs (KDE) Apr 20 00:36
balzac anyway, huffpo cropped it Apr 20 00:36
schestowitz Yuck. Apr 20 00:36
schestowitz Sarko-mutants Apr 20 00:36
balzac ? Apr 20 00:36
schestowitz Did you know that Sark0 banned voodoo dolls that look like him? Apr 20 00:37
schestowitz How about stopping being such as arsehole? People would stop buying such dolls and there would be no market for people to find it worth making. Apr 20 00:37
balzac that’s funny Apr 20 00:38
balzac http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/1… Apr 20 00:39
balzac you can see who has the bigger smile here Apr 20 00:39
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balzac Chavez wore the power-tie Apr 20 00:40
balzac Roy, you should get a blogging gig at Huffington Post Apr 20 00:42
balzac be their tech correspondent Apr 20 00:42
balzac and then help shoe-horn me in Apr 20 00:42
balzac wait, they don’t even have a tech section Apr 20 00:43
schestowitz :-) Apr 20 00:47
schestowitz I like exploring corruption. Other people dare not study or write about it. Apr 20 00:47
schestowitz gn Apr 20 00:48
tacone gn Apr 20 01:01
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air_ yaaaaay, i installed fglrx at last Apr 20 05:10
air_ ts a cure for debian Apr 20 05:10
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The_Mad_Hatter Roy, the Dalai Lama’s computer people are asking about a more secure OS after having had their Windows boxes hacked Apr 20 06:33
The_Mad_Hatter http://ask.slashdot.org/article… Apr 20 06:33
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schestowitz What’s this about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucG… Apr 20 07:32
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQQQ2dp-… ”    “Bill Clinton Subconsciously Admitting That The Clintons Lie” Apr 20 07:33
schestowitz Hehe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy0… Apr 20 07:34
schestowitz Sun still wants to be bought: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206… Apr 20 07:54
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schestowitz News & Observer about Red Hat in government: http://www.newsobserver.com/bu… Apr 20 08:09
schestowitz “How Novell is Killing SuSE Linux” http://serversolved.blogspot.com… Apr 20 08:12
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MinceR geekings Apr 20 09:11
oiaohm There is currently a anti-trust case starting up in the EU.  IBM aquiring SUN would have reduced complainers. Apr 20 09:11
schestowitz True. Apr 20 09:14
schestowitz But Microsoft is not the only problem Apr 20 09:14
schestowitz Microsoft will rot in due time because I very much doubt it can evolve to a busienss model where s/w is given away for free and services offered over the Web. Apr 20 09:15
schestowitz Oh, no. http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/ hooked up with IDG Apr 20 09:23
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schestowitz balzac: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoMvjgjzxLA (Ralph Nader says, “I Do Like Kucinich”) Apr 20 10:02
schestowitz The AP’s Desperate Attempt To Outlaw Search Engine Links < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/200… > Apr 20 10:04
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kentma schestowitz: hi Roy – do you know if anyone’s done a really detailed analysis of the licensing of Android, and how well it fits with the GPL and so on? Apr 20 10:27
schestowitz I know one analysis that’s purely technical. Android is not really Linux as people think of it. Apr 20 10:30
schestowitz kentma: Symbian published some criticisms of Android. Apr 20 10:30
iwmw it’s google, isn’t it enough to understand that it’s not purely linux and licensing sucks Apr 20 10:34
oiaohm Neither is Linux what people think it is any more either schestowitz Apr 20 10:38
schestowitz Interesting talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKx6yAGj… Apr 20 10:39
iwmw forums.debian.net Apr 20 10:40
oiaohm What really says a Linux has to have posix compadible system on it. Apr 20 10:41
oiaohm Hopefully android will make distrobutions redefine what they are. Apr 20 10:43
kentma I presume that Symbian’s licensing isn’t exactly GPL, either? Apr 20 10:45
oiaohm Nokia is planing to release all of Symbian under GPL. Apr 20 10:46
kentma If that’s the case, then I’d have no particular problem with it.  Symbian is quite nice, and is certainly good on small devices. Apr 20 10:46
oiaohm Symbian has not been designed to scale up to like netbooks. Apr 20 10:51
kentma oiaohm: it originated running exactly such machines, though, the psion 3a,b,c, 4 and 5 and 5mx and 7 are all netbooks. Apr 20 10:51
kentma I have a 4 and a 5mx somewhere. Apr 20 10:51
kentma I mean “netbook” in the very small computer sense, of course, although series 5 onwards all had IP stacks. Apr 20 10:52
oiaohm Recent times development has focused on small screens. Apr 20 10:52
kentma 5mx has a touch-screen, revo did too.  Not sure about the 7. Apr 20 10:52
oiaohm Not like the 9 inch + screens of modern day netbooks. Apr 20 10:52
kentma Agreed, the psion ones were designed to be very small and “finger” powered. Apr 20 10:53
oiaohm symbian could be fixed up for that market if development time goes in. Apr 20 10:53
kentma They were very good machines – early ARM devices. Apr 20 10:53
kentma oiaohm: I think you’ll find that symbian dominated that market before anyone else really recognised it… Apr 20 10:53
oiaohm Linux was first into the netbook market. Apr 20 10:54
oiaohm Linux and symbian were competors in the netbook market for a long time. Apr 20 10:54
kentma oiaohm: not really – symbian netbooks were around many years ago. Apr 20 10:54
oiaohm Same with early Linux ones. Apr 20 10:54
kentma look up the psion revo, 5mx and 7, you’ll see what I mean. Apr 20 10:54
oiaohm Older than that there are Linux ones. Apr 20 10:55
oiaohm sharp made quite a few Linux ones for the jap market. Apr 20 10:55
kentma psions came out much earlier than the sharp devices. Apr 20 10:55
kentma http://www.bioeddie.co.uk/m… Apr 20 10:56
kentma psion originally wrote games for the ZX81… Apr 20 10:56
iwmw not zx80? Apr 20 10:57
oiaohm sharp one I am refering to is 1995 name Z something. Apr 20 10:57
oiaohm When Linux was really young. Apr 20 10:57
iwmw oh yeah… both zx80/81 Apr 20 10:58
oiaohm It was pre the name netbook kentma Apr 20 10:59
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shar… Apr 20 11:02
oiaohm kentma sharp was using there own OS like psion before the Linux line. Apr 20 11:03
oiaohm Both had been competing over the same markets for a long time. Apr 20 11:03
oiaohm Common myth over netbooks as psion being first with the design.   They trademarked the name of netbook in 1996.  Only they were using the name for netbook style devices until 2001. Apr 20 11:07
oiaohm It was not that they were the only company making netbook like devices. Apr 20 11:07
oiaohm Its very simple to miss important bits due to computer term changes in computer history. Apr 20 11:08
oiaohm Basically netbooks have been around for ages and never took off until recently. Apr 20 11:13
oiaohm Asus when there took off they were expecting another Linux based netbook not to sell very much at all. Apr 20 11:16
schestowitz oiaohm: Symbian won’t be GPL Apr 20 11:23
schestowitz It’s Eclipse Apr 20 11:23
schestowitz its head said nasty FUD about GPL Apr 20 11:23
kentma oiaohm: I agree that sharp were doing pda-like devices a long time ago, but symbian ones date back to earlier than linux ones.  I think the first symbian (epoc) release was on the psion 3a series. Apr 20 11:24
schestowitz /s/said/uttered/ Apr 20 11:24
kentma schestowitz: if symbian won’t be GPL, then it won’t be any threat to linux. Apr 20 11:25
kentma I don’t know the details of android, but equally, it seems unlikely to have long-term staying power without everything being GPLed.  There is a real danger of “just another windows” if Google are not careful here. Apr 20 11:26
kentma oiaohm: personally, I prefer the linux stuff, as it’s more likely to be mutually compatible – I have an AA1, it’s excellent. Apr 20 11:27
kentma One really good feature of my Acer Aspire 1 is that it makes an excellent mythtv client machine.  I can playback recordings from myth anywhere within the radius of my house wifi, which includes out in the shed etc. Apr 20 11:28
kentma my psion machines could barely run Opera, however :-) Apr 20 11:28
schestowitz kentma: indeed, re: gpl Apr 20 11:29
schestowitz I can find you the zdnet uk interview where Symbian’s top gun mocks the gpl in a way, using myths Apr 20 11:30
schestowitz Google’s Andoid was already called “next Windows” Apr 20 11:30
schestowitz Microsoft is very afraid of Android and it’s periodically throwing FUD at it. Apr 20 11:31
schestowitz I sometimes think of Android as the iPhone-type platform (with online shop and DRM) but one that’s built on Linux Apr 20 11:31
schestowitz The EPO enlarged board of appeal mailed me twice this morning to confirm receipt of letter Apr 20 11:37
schestowitz I think the EPO might not like BN after posts like this one: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/20… Apr 20 11:37
iwmw lol, m$ is so addicted to patenting and now it has to pay for that :)) Apr 20 11:43
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oiaohm psion 3a was not symbian Apr 20 11:46
kentma oiaohm:  it was epoc 16, psion 5mx was epoc 32.  Can’t recall what the psion 4 was.  Symbian was the name later adopted by the consortium which took “ownership” of epoc. Apr 20 11:47
kentma symbian is a consortium, epoc is really the OS. Apr 20 11:47
oiaohm epoc 16 is 16 bit version. Apr 20 11:49
kentma after the consortium took over epoc, they began to give it “symbian” serial numbers, but it’s the same thing. Apr 20 11:49
oiaohm epoc32 and symbian share some common structs. Apr 20 11:49
oiaohm epoc is like windows 3.11 Apr 20 11:49
oiaohm Internally nothing like NT. Apr 20 11:49
oiaohm Opps epoc16=windows 3.11 symbian=nt. Apr 20 11:50
oiaohm epoc32 was the change. Apr 20 11:50
kentma oiaohm: symbian is the name of the consortium which took over epoc development. Apr 20 11:51
iwmw is symbian anywhere near nt nowadays? Apr 20 11:51
oiaohm In tech difference iwmw Apr 20 11:51
kentma iwmw: symbian and/or Epoc was never that coupled into dos or windows.  It was independently developed for use on low-power devices. Apr 20 11:51
kentma epoc 16 ran on the psion 3a,b,c, at that time, there were no low-power 32-bit processors around. Apr 20 11:51
oiaohm Sharp used there own 16 bit OS in that time with epoc16 Apr 20 11:52
*iwmw knows, programmed for symbian a bit Apr 20 11:52
kentma epoc 32 was the 32-bit version of epoc, the relationship was nothing like dos/nt.  Much more like 32 bit and 64 bit linux. Apr 20 11:52
kentma however, 32-bit small processors had a lot of capabilities which 16-bit ones did not, of course :-) Apr 20 11:53
oiaohm Lot of structs and design in epoc16 are droped completely in epoc32. Apr 20 11:53
iwmw weren’t they all arm? Apr 20 11:53
oiaohm They took the chance to clean the bugger up at that point. Apr 20 11:53
kentma iwmw: the psion 3a was arm, yes Apr 20 11:53
oiaohm So its not like 32bit linux and 64 bit Linux where the interfaces really did not change. Apr 20 11:53
oiaohm The first version of EPOC32, Release 1 appeared on the Psion Series 5 ROM v1.0 in 1997.   Kinda late to the 32 bit party. Apr 20 11:55
iwmw not too late Apr 20 11:55
kentma oiaohm: the 5mx did very well.  Even Ericsson badged a version, as did someone else, I think, but I can’t recall who. Apr 20 11:55
oiaohm acorn Apr 20 11:56
iwmw what processor epoc32 was run on? Apr 20 11:56
kentma acorn badged a 5mx?  Are you sure? Apr 20 11:56
kentma iwmw it was arm Apr 20 11:56
iwmw hehe… so they all are into arm Apr 20 11:56
oiaohm Acron designed arm. Apr 20 11:56
oiaohm Acorn designed the arm chip. Apr 20 11:57
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iwmw wasn’t it ti who designed arm? Apr 20 11:57
oiaohm They branded a few of them for demo strations of chips. Apr 20 11:57
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A… Apr 20 11:57
oiaohm They broke up in 2000 and become arm holdings and a few other companies. Apr 20 11:58
kentma iwmw:  acorn’s design team went all over – one of them went to Apple, some, I believe, ended up in the TomTom company. Apr 20 11:58
oiaohm Lot went into arm holdings. Apr 20 11:58
kentma acorn were amazingly influential – still are, albeit via tomtom, psion & arm holdings and so on … Apr 20 11:59
iwmw what’s arm holding? Apr 20 11:59
oiaohm The design company of arm processors iwmw Apr 20 11:59
kentma arm holdings do the arm processor designs & licensing to other companies like TI, Intel and so on. Apr 20 12:00
oiaohm So every arm processor chip out there started in there design rooms. Apr 20 12:00
kentma oiaohm: which includes most smartphones on the planet… Apr 20 12:00
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F…  This has to be one of Acorn screwups. Apr 20 12:00
iwmw wow… i always thought that it’s ti who designed arm… but now reading wiki it’s Acorn Apr 20 12:00
oiaohm Who wants a case custerd yellow. Apr 20 12:00
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kentma oiaohm: hard to say, really :-) Apr 20 12:02
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kentma i used to have a Pace DTV set top box, too, but that was a long time ago. Apr 20 12:04
oiaohm Basically ever since 32 bit netbooks Linux and symbian have been facing off against each other. Apr 20 12:04
schestowitz I’ve just realised that Thursday will be sweet not only because of Ubuntu 9.04: http://online.wsj.com/article/B… Apr 20 12:05
oiaohm Hopefully the fight between each of them goes well into the future. Apr 20 12:05
kentma oiaohm: linux will win, in my view, because of its GPL.  If the symbian consortium are serious about taking on linux, then they must GPL, which they’re not doing.  They’ve lost, it’s just a question of time, imo. Apr 20 12:06
oiaohm Symbian consortium don’t really exist. Apr 20 12:07
oiaohm Any more. Apr 20 12:07
oiaohm Its completely nokia. Apr 20 12:07
oiaohm Yes nokia owns 100 percent of Symbian consortium. Apr 20 12:08
kentma oiaohm: indeed.  Nokia might sell it in the future, though, or find other investors. Apr 20 12:12
oiaohm Its a bit like AMD releasing ATI specs. Apr 20 12:13
oiaohm Legal audit of source has to be done. Apr 20 12:13
oiaohm Nokia seams to be talking about full release middle of this year. Apr 20 12:14
oiaohm That could be a little late against linux. Apr 20 12:14
magentar Sun Microsystems, Inc. (NASDAQ:JAVA – News) and Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ:ORCL – News) announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under which Oracle will acquire Sun common stock for $9.50 per share in cash. Apr 20 12:35
schestowitz oiaohm: just remember that Symbian is not GPL Apr 20 12:48
schestowitz You said something like that earlier and it’s a misrepresentation of fact that I find risky Apr 20 12:48
schestowitz I perceive Symbian as a proponent od DRM Apr 20 12:48
schestowitz Also, as you may recall (and kentma would know this), Symbian is behinf the abysmal case in the UK which soert of legalises software patents Apr 20 12:48
schestowitz They had the DLL thing “improve” the performance of some computer. Apr 20 12:49
schestowitz This Symbian ruling in the UK may already contaminate continental Europe with sw patents (they cite it) Apr 20 12:49
schestowitz kentma, oiaohm Nokia’s results last week showed profit falling 90% (year-to-year, quarterly) Apr 20 12:50
kentma schestowitz: I recall the symbian ruling – it was a terrible moment,  I was not impressed. Apr 20 12:50
kentma schestowitz: that’s a very bad quarter indeed.  No wonder Nokia are looking at other offerings… Apr 20 12:51
schestowitz magentar: : what would be the impact Apr 20 12:51
magentar impossible to say at the moment. it will be interesting to see how this will affect suns open source projects Apr 20 12:52
oiaohm http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/74/  Added my own thoughs on mono to that one.  People really don’t think mono though.  Its pure crap techincally. Apr 20 13:00
schestowitz oiaohm: he works on it Apr 20 13:01
schestowitz apebox=mono packager for Debian and Ubuntu Apr 20 13:01
oiaohm Yep. Apr 20 13:01
oiaohm Reason why I kinda drop house on him. Apr 20 13:01
oiaohm There is no logical argument out. Apr 20 13:02
schestowitz http://www.businesswire.com/portal/s… Oracle to Buy Sun Apr 20 13:02
schestowitz So what happens to btrfs then? Apr 20 13:02
schestowitz And OracleOffice.org? Apr 20 13:02
oiaohm btrfs will remain. Apr 20 13:03
schestowitz Oracle did defend ODF Apr 20 13:03
oiaohm Oracle had tech issue with ZFS Apr 20 13:03
schestowitz oiaohm: as I read it, Ellison will also own Java Apr 20 13:03
oiaohm Not just licence ones. Apr 20 13:03
schestowitz They have some Java projects Apr 20 13:03
schestowitz And Oracle won’t mess with anything Microsoft Apr 20 13:03
schestowitz Ellison hates Mirosoft Apr 20 13:03
schestowitz I’m not too fearful Apr 20 13:03
schestowitz Oracle is also not a patent aggressor Apr 20 13:04
schestowitz It’s in OIN Apr 20 13:04
oiaohm Ellison would keep Open Office alive just to annoy Microsoft. Apr 20 13:04
schestowitz All in all, I’m kind of OK with it, I guess Apr 20 13:04
schestowitz oiaohm: exacttly. Apr 20 13:04
schestowitz It could also make them a bundle Apr 20 13:04
schestowitz My initial thoughts about the Oracle-Sun deal are positive. Apr 20 13:05
schestowitz Any conflicts that I’m missing? Apr 20 13:05
schestowitz I mean, OK… IBM sold hardware, so did Sun Apr 20 13:05
oiaohm http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members  Again 1 of the top 8 in the Linux foundation. Apr 20 13:05
schestowitz So IBM buying Sun would mean less choice Apr 20 13:05
schestowitz h/w-wise Apr 20 13:05
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schestowitz Oracle doesn’t sell hardware Apr 20 13:05
schestowitz now it might Apr 20 13:06
oiaohm Orcale could be a conflit they do sell a Linux. Apr 20 13:06
Omar87 schestowitz: Hi Apr 20 13:06
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, Oracle was OK in the LF Apr 20 13:06
schestowitz It gave its patents too Apr 20 13:06
schestowitz Oracle doesn’t compete with Google Apr 20 13:06
MinceR hopefully Oracle will finally force Sun to favor Linux instead of Solarisaurus. Apr 20 13:06
schestowitz it does not compete with OOo (e.g. Symphony) Apr 20 13:06
schestowitz MinceR: maybe merge them Apr 20 13:06
oiaohm Oracle taken over other open source projects in the past and they are still going. Apr 20 13:06
schestowitz DTrace, Java… Apr 20 13:06
schestowitz Sun needed to withdraw appeal for GNU/Linux Apr 20 13:07
oiaohm http://www.oracle.com/technology/pr… Apr 20 13:07
magentar i hope they will keep investing in mysql, they might see it as competitive to their business Apr 20 13:07
schestowitz With Oracle, this might end, so he could bring UNIX and Linux together and knock them against MSFT, which will disappoint profoundly on Thursday (market close) Apr 20 13:07
schestowitz OH NO1 Apr 20 13:07
schestowitz Mysql Apr 20 13:07
Omar87 schestowitz: There’s a typo in your article “Should the hompage of boycottnovell be changed?”:  “So as it(to) make it…” Apr 20 13:07
oiaohm Don’t worry. Apr 20 13:07
schestowitz I totally missed that one Apr 20 13:08
oiaohm Oracle will keep it around. Apr 20 13:08
schestowitz So you think they’ll integrate it as a low-cost option? Apr 20 13:08
oiaohm Mysql was one of the things of Sun that was paying. Apr 20 13:08
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, but in what state? Apr 20 13:08
schestowitz They fought Mysql viciously Apr 20 13:08
tacone apebox scares me Apr 20 13:08
schestowitz But buying innodb for instancer Apr 20 13:08
schestowitz Among others Apr 20 13:08
schestowitz tacone: hehe. Apr 20 13:08
tacone look the title of the first post Apr 20 13:08
tacone “Mass infection vector” Apr 20 13:08
schestowitz He’s a small fella Apr 20 13:08
oiaohm They fort berkley db before they took it over as well. Apr 20 13:08
MinceR mysql sucks anyway Apr 20 13:08
tacone brr. Apr 20 13:08
tacone seems like some kind of honesty :-) Apr 20 13:09
MinceR the only reason i use it is that some webapps don’t support postgres nor sqlite Apr 20 13:09
schestowitz MinceR: what for? Apr 20 13:09
oiaohm After Oracle got hands on it they quality of it went up. Apr 20 13:09
schestowitz mysql works great for millions of sites Apr 20 13:09
tacone same goes for iguaza’s embrace & extend Apr 20 13:09
oiaohm Mysql most likely be the same. Apr 20 13:09
oiaohm If Oracle was not already running a open source database in berkley db I would be worried. Apr 20 13:09
oiaohm Postgresql might have something to worry about. Apr 20 13:10
schestowitz Hehe. “davidgerard @schestowitz mine aren’t. 8 years of my CV vanishing like dew in the morning sun. guess i’ll hafta learn this ‘leengux’ the kids are into.” Apr 20 13:10
oiaohm Mysql might get Oracle database compadiblity. Apr 20 13:10
Omar87 schestowitz: did u correct the typo? Apr 20 13:10
schestowitz “davidgerard @schestowitz i see mysql forking accelerating. i have no confidence jschwartz’s “open source everything” policy will remain in place.” Apr 20 13:10
schestowitz Omar87: good spot! Thanks Apr 20 13:11
MinceR what was davidgerard into? Slowlarisaurus? Apr 20 13:11
schestowitz Did you see the Wiki? Apr 20 13:11
Omar87 schestowitz: no problem. Apr 20 13:11
schestowitz :-) Apr 20 13:11
schestowitz Fixed Apr 20 13:11
schestowitz MinceR: wikipedia UK Apr 20 13:12
schestowitz It runs some Solaris Apr 20 13:12
MinceR ic Apr 20 13:12
schestowitz Oraclaris Apr 20 13:12
MinceR well, maybe it’ll live on as Oracle Unbreakable Solaris Apr 20 13:12
Omar87 great ;) Apr 20 13:12
MinceR and Oracle Unbreakable OpenSolaris Apr 20 13:12
schestowitz If Oracle does no good with mysql, then it will go out of its control. Apr 20 13:13
MinceR i wonder what will come of btrfs and ZFS now Apr 20 13:13
schestowitz MinceR: I wonder about OS X Apr 20 13:13
schestowitz It had a potential big deployment of ZFS Apr 20 13:13
schestowitz Balrog would know Apr 20 13:13
oiaohm btrfs was developed to deal with ZFS limits. Apr 20 13:13
schestowitz They put experimental ZFS seeds in it Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz Snow leopard Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz oiaohm: yes Apr 20 13:14
oiaohm ZFS most likely get moved to Linux friendly licence. Apr 20 13:14
MinceR then i’ll say this acquisition was worth it. Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz oiaohm: bad news is this: Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz We run out of companies Apr 20 13:14
oiaohm And btrfs stays around not like Orcale. Apr 20 13:14
MinceR if only to see the faces of the bsd fanboys. Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz Startups are fried Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz No capita Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz No capital Apr 20 13:14
oiaohm to give up an experment before it complete. Apr 20 13:14
schestowitz So now you see big corporations sweeping up small ones Apr 20 13:15
schestowitz Like fish in the sea Apr 20 13:15
schestowitz mysql->sun->oracle Apr 20 13:15
MinceR it’s the crisis, i think it’ll be over eventually. Apr 20 13:15
schestowitz Sardine->salmon->whale Apr 20 13:15
oiaohm Oracle aquired sleepy cat first. Apr 20 13:15
MinceR and in the world of FLOSS it’s still easy to start a new company Apr 20 13:15
oiaohm Remember Oracle only aquires companies that offer themselfs. Apr 20 13:15
schestowitz MinceR: what do you mean by over? Apr 20 13:15
schestowitz Like when people stop trading in USD? Apr 20 13:15
oiaohm They don’t want hostile. Apr 20 13:15
schestowitz For some nations it will never end Apr 20 13:15
schestowitz it’s just the beginning of the end to some Apr 20 13:16
schestowitz But the press is not information them yet Apr 20 13:16
schestowitz *informing Apr 20 13:16
MinceR schestowitz: i think that the crisis is accelerating such acquisitions as smaller companies run low on money Apr 20 13:16
oiaohm So Oracle is never going to try to buy Microsoft or anything else stupid. Apr 20 13:16
MinceR that would be funny Apr 20 13:16
schestowitz oiaohm: buying MS? what for? Apr 20 13:16
schestowitz ms sql server sucks Apr 20 13:17
schestowitz Compared to Oracle Apr 20 13:17
oiaohm MS would do something that stupid. Apr 20 13:17
schestowitz And it won’r run on ‘alien’ platforms Oracle uses Apr 20 13:17
oiaohm In the means of compeition nuking. Apr 20 13:17
schestowitz MS is useful just to MS Apr 20 13:17
oiaohm Oracle does not aquire to destroy. Apr 20 13:17
schestowitz Or Exxon or something Apr 20 13:17
schestowitz (if they do into tech) Apr 20 13:17
schestowitz Microsoft chose to combat the big companies, inc. IBM Apr 20 13:18
oiaohm I expect to see more intergration between open office and Oracles databases from the merge. Apr 20 13:18
schestowitz GE is not quite in computing, either Apr 20 13:18
oiaohm Remember databases. Apr 20 13:18
schestowitz Even Intel and H-P sometimes grow tired of MS’ incompetence Apr 20 13:18
oiaohm One in trouble here might be sqlite. Apr 20 13:18
oiaohm HP has to do contracts with Oracle. Apr 20 13:19
oiaohm Oracle + hardware becomes another IT supper power. Apr 20 13:19
oiaohm IBM HP Oracle Apr 20 13:19
kentma schestowitz: have you seen rumours about Oracle buying Sun?  (== mysql)? Apr 20 13:19
MinceR it isn’t supper time yet though Apr 20 13:20
oiaohm http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/…  << not rumour kentma Apr 20 13:20
kentma http://www.reuters.com/article/ousi… Apr 20 13:20
kentma oiaohm: indeed, I’ve just found the reuters feed, too. Apr 20 13:21
kentma end of the road for mysql? Apr 20 13:21
schestowitz kentma: see the log Apr 20 13:21
schestowitz We’ve spoken about it :-) Apr 20 13:21
kentma schestowitz: ah, yes, I can see it further up. Apr 20 13:21
kentma so I see :-) Apr 20 13:21
kentma Still, it will be a real test of the GPL… I wonder if we’ll see a spin-off, like we had X.org Apr 20 13:22
oiaohm Mysql would not be the first database that is open source Oracle has picked up. Apr 20 13:24
Omar87 damn it guys, I hate Dreamweaver, I’m having an utterly boring class aboutit right now. Apr 20 13:24
oiaohm Mysql is profitable. Apr 20 13:24
oiaohm Oracle is not foolish. Apr 20 13:24
Omar87 *about it* Apr 20 13:24
oiaohm Berkley db was the first one orcale picked up. Apr 20 13:24
oiaohm They improved it. Apr 20 13:24
oiaohm Sell support for it.  Make profit. Apr 20 13:25
oiaohm Oracle will see Mysql as another profit line. Apr 20 13:25
oiaohm There is worse than dreamweaver you could be using screem. Apr 20 13:26
schestowitz Dreamweaver is not computing Apr 20 13:26
schestowitz it’s a tool Apr 20 13:26
schestowitz Like teaching kids how to chew Sinkers Apr 20 13:26
schestowitz oiaohm: mysql is profitable, but at /whose/ expense? Apr 20 13:27
oiaohm Most of the mysql users cannot aford orcale main database licence. Apr 20 13:27
oiaohm So its not realy at Orcales expence. Apr 20 13:28
oiaohm The aquirement of mysql gives Oracle from top to bottom of the web based database market. Apr 20 13:28
oiaohm Its really at MS expence. Apr 20 13:28
oiaohm Be truthful if you had to pay for Oracle would you be schestowitz?  Or would you go to postgresql? Apr 20 13:29
schestowitz oiaohm: fair point Apr 20 13:30
zer0c00l schestowitz, http://developers.slashdot.org/a… oracle buys sun? Apr 20 13:30
schestowitz “sebjames @schestowitz: A test of GPL code in the hands of large corporations. CUPS didn’t need to be forked after Apple bought it. Mysql different?” Apr 20 13:30
oiaohm Mysql is basically used by people too cheep to aford Oracle or MS SQL or Enterprise db and don’t want to have the hard time configuring postgresql.   Oracle could basically develop as a light end solution. Apr 20 13:32
schestowitz They already have that though Apr 20 13:33
schestowitz but proprietary Apr 20 13:33
zer0c00l oiaohm, they  (oracle) will stop developing  mysql? Apr 20 13:33
oiaohm Enterprise DB has been eating into Oracles profits anyhow. Apr 20 13:33
schestowitz So it steps on the toes on their CPU-limited version Apr 20 13:33
schestowitz zer0c00l: they can’t Apr 20 13:33
schestowitz It will then be forked Apr 20 13:33
oiaohm Remember Enterprise db is postgresql + management tools. Apr 20 13:34
schestowitz Some business of 100 devs can be formed to then capitalise on mysq Apr 20 13:34
schestowitz So Oracle must develop it somehow Apr 20 13:34
schestowitz This is NOT like Xen Apr 20 13:34
oiaohm Oracle need a low end solution. Apr 20 13:34
schestowitz When Microsoft bought Xen (XenSource-Citrix) it abandoned it Apr 20 13:34
schestowitz But it worked because we have kvm Apr 20 13:34
oiaohm For Oracle long term killing mysql would be a stupid move. Apr 20 13:34
schestowitz mysql->postgres is not that simple Apr 20 13:34
oiaohm Exactly. Apr 20 13:35
schestowitz oiaohm: they can’t kil it Apr 20 13:35
schestowitz You can’t kill GPL s/w Apr 20 13:35
oiaohm I meant kill the development team. Apr 20 13:35
schestowitz It’s not like code you keep secret and lock in the box Apr 20 13:35
oiaohm If Oracle can get mysql intergrated into there main db system. Apr 20 13:35
schestowitz If people like us took mysql and created a business around it, imagine how many contracts you’d get Apr 20 13:35
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schestowitz So Oracle might at best FAKE support of mysql and hope this avoids forking Apr 20 13:36
oiaohm Oracle making migration from mysql to Oracle simple. Apr 20 13:36
oiaohm Would allow upselling. Apr 20 13:36
schestowitz Oracle’s problem are other enterprise dbs Apr 20 13:36
schestowitz like MS, IBM… Apr 20 13:36
oiaohm Remember Oracle is also a OS maker. Apr 20 13:36
schestowitz oiaohm: hardly Apr 20 13:37
schestowitz Rebrander Apr 20 13:37
schestowitz With some Linux devs Apr 20 13:37
oiaohm So more applications running on there OS the more support contacts they can get. Apr 20 13:37
schestowitz For stuff it NEEDS Apr 20 13:37
oiaohm Yes Rebrander. Apr 20 13:37
oiaohm Who has got fired for using Oracle. Apr 20 13:37
schestowitz heh. Apr 20 13:37
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