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| oiaohm_ | GPL is about the right to customise. | Apr 29 05:15 |
|---|---|---|
| ushimitsudoki1 | the_mad_hatter: So there is no advantage due to licensing and copyright that FLOSS offers? | Apr 29 05:15 |
| oiaohm_ | And the right for everyone to customise on top of your customisations. | Apr 29 05:15 |
| the_mad_hatter | No advantage that you could sell a customer on. | Apr 29 05:15 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Really? Because that is EXACTLY why Ernie Ball switched. | Apr 29 05:16 |
| oiaohm_ | By sharing your customisations back defects you miss can be detected by others. | Apr 29 05:16 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Purely based on licensing problems. | Apr 29 05:16 |
| the_mad_hatter | As to the TPB, do you know how much work people like Axxo put into supplying content, and how much they get paid? | Apr 29 05:16 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm_: "Anyway, I know your employer is in a deal with Big Evil Company which doesn't acknowledge their poisonous and frivolous patent claims against Linux and free software (yet....and Iran-Contra wasn't arms for hostages)" | Apr 29 05:16 |
| DaemonFC | part of a reply I'm writing to Adam Williamson | Apr 29 05:16 |
| the_mad_hatter | licensing issues are a negative. You sell based on postives. | Apr 29 05:16 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | An entire company. I suggest you listen to other people's opinions and consider what they say instead of just flat-out denying things. | Apr 29 05:17 |
| oiaohm_ | Open source licensing is a postive. | Apr 29 05:17 |
| oiaohm_ | You get access to a bigger development teams than your company could ever aford. | Apr 29 05:17 |
| the_mad_hatter | Free Software licensing is a positive. Open Source licensing is a null program. | Apr 29 05:17 |
| DaemonFC | "so I have some reasonable idea of why you are making counterproductive and misguided posts like this." | Apr 29 05:18 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | the_mad_hatter: Ernie Ball, a guitar string company, switched entirely away from MS because of licensing issues. http://news.cnet.com/2008-... | Apr 29 05:18 |
| the_mad_hatter | Let me put it to you another way - DON"T THREATEN THE CUSTOMER!!! | Apr 29 05:18 |
| the_mad_hatter | Yep, Microsoft threatened the customer. | Apr 29 05:18 |
| DaemonFC | "Anyway, I'll post this on my blog just in case there's a problem with the "series of tubes", yes?" | Apr 29 05:19 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Apr 29 05:19 |
| the_mad_hatter | That's why I buy Ernie Ball strings. | Apr 29 05:19 |
| *dsmith_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Apr 29 05:19 | |
| ushimitsudoki1 | So stop just plain denying what people are saying. Licensing and related issues are important to some customers. It's one of many issues that can comprise an effective promotion. | Apr 29 05:19 |
| oiaohm_ | I still use the old term Open Source. | Apr 29 05:19 |
| the_mad_hatter | Licensing is a negative. Never sell based on a negative. | Apr 29 05:19 |
| oiaohm_ | Not the MS altered one. | Apr 29 05:19 |
| the_mad_hatter | Open source is null program. | Apr 29 05:20 |
| oiaohm_ | It depends on what you are selling. | Apr 29 05:20 |
| the_mad_hatter | No it doesn't. | Apr 29 05:20 |
| oiaohm_ | It does. | Apr 29 05:20 |
| oiaohm_ | Open source allowed code auditing. | Apr 29 05:20 |
| the_mad_hatter | Successful sales people always sell based on positives. Only an idiot tries to sell based on negatives. | Apr 29 05:20 |
| oiaohm_ | Some areas that is critical. | Apr 29 05:20 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | It's like talking to a wall. I don't understand why people just flat out negate what other people are saying here. It's not constructive, and it doesn't mean you "win". | Apr 29 05:21 |
| oiaohm_ | Successful also sell to there market the_mad_hatter | Apr 29 05:21 |
| oiaohm_ | I am in business secuirty. | Apr 29 05:21 |
| the_mad_hatter | Open Source is a joke. Free software is the only real answer. | Apr 29 05:21 |
| the_mad_hatter | Let me give an example - say a year before Ernie Ball got audited, you visited them, and said: | Apr 29 05:22 |
| the_mad_hatter | "You may have licensing problems." | Apr 29 05:22 |
| the_mad_hatter | Do they care? They are too busy trying to make guitar strings as efficiently as possible. | Apr 29 05:23 |
| the_mad_hatter | Instead you tell them that you can save them $10,000.00 per year (a positive). | Apr 29 05:23 |
| oiaohm_ | My market will spend 10,000.00 at a click of fingers if it will give them data security. | Apr 29 05:23 |
| oiaohm_ | Means to audit code with own tools for secuirty defects is worth a lot to them. | Apr 29 05:24 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Sure, that is a good selling point. But pointing out the problems that Ernie Ball had to *a different* company as part of the sales message is also a good selling point. It uses licensing as a sales point - one of *many* that may be needed to convince a customer | Apr 29 05:24 |
| oiaohm_ | The sales method has to match market. | Apr 29 05:25 |
| the_mad_hatter | This will get their attention, at which point you mention all the other positives about Free Software (better security, flexibility, etc.) You do not mention the licensing issues with Proprietary Software. Unless they are totally stupid, they will figure that out on their own real quickly.... | Apr 29 05:25 |
| DaemonFC | http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2... | Apr 29 05:25 |
| oiaohm_ | My market saving money they don't care the_mad_hatter | Apr 29 05:25 |
| oiaohm_ | The thing they want to hear is do they get to inspect the source code or not. | Apr 29 05:25 |
| the_mad_hatter | Shit. Don't you get it? Don't be negative. When you point out Ernie Ball's problems, they will think you are trying to threaten them. | Apr 29 05:25 |
| oiaohm_ | They seriousally if you try selling lower cost you are out door. | Apr 29 05:26 |
| oiaohm_ | They want secuirty. | Apr 29 05:26 |
| the_mad_hatter | And you can't deliver? | Apr 29 05:26 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | the_mad_hatter: Well I just look at is as being one arrow in the quiver, so to speak. It's not something I would lead off with or put up as the main point, but I disagree that it should be avoided or will automatically come across as a "threat". | Apr 29 05:26 |
| oiaohm_ | I do deliver. | Apr 29 05:26 |
| the_mad_hatter | So that's the point that you elaborate on. If they don't care about money, don't mention it. | Apr 29 05:27 |
| oiaohm_ | If they care about access to the source code. | Apr 29 05:27 |
| oiaohm_ | Like the ones I am dealing with open source is a great term to use. | Apr 29 05:27 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | It is a potential cost/liability and companies generally like to know them. Also, consider all the hullabaloo Novell has made about licensing issues - while I strongly disagree with Novell - I do think they have fashioned an effective sales message out of it (with a lot of help and FUD from Microsoft) | Apr 29 05:28 |
| the_mad_hatter | No, it's not an arrow in the quiver. Any good sales person will tell you, that negatives will kill a sale faster than anything. | Apr 29 05:28 |
| oiaohm_ | free software does not line up with there goals. | Apr 29 05:28 |
| oiaohm_ | as a term. | Apr 29 05:28 |
| oiaohm_ | Correct term for customer. | Apr 29 05:28 |
| oiaohm_ | Makes a big difference. | Apr 29 05:28 |
| the_mad_hatter | If Novell has "fashioned an effective sales message" then why the hell are their sales dropping? | Apr 29 05:28 |
| oiaohm_ | Some customers you use free software as term others you use open source. | Apr 29 05:29 |
| oiaohm_ | It all comes down to the customers goals. | Apr 29 05:29 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Talking about licensing alone is not a negative or positive. It's how you frame the message that makes it positive or negative. Your continued insistance that licensing can only be negative and only be percieved as a threat by the customer is dishonest. | Apr 29 05:29 |
| the_mad_hatter | A name is a name. But to me Free Software is the only choice, Open Source is null program. | Apr 29 05:29 |
| oiaohm_ | Some sides like mine Licencing is important to them. | Apr 29 05:29 |
| oiaohm_ | For mine you would not make the sales with my customers. | Apr 29 05:30 |
| the_mad_hatter | With negatives, you wait till they ask. Then you explain. | Apr 29 05:30 |
| oiaohm_ | You get interest from them as soon as the words open source is used. | Apr 29 05:30 |
| the_mad_hatter | You wouldn't believe how many sales I've seen in-experienced sales reps blow all to hell, because they went with the negative message. | Apr 29 05:30 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | You continue to imply or state that licensing is a "negative". It is not. It can be either. | Apr 29 05:30 |
| oiaohm_ | Free software gets you nothing. | Apr 29 05:30 |
| oiaohm_ | It has no interist to them. | Apr 29 05:31 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | You can present licensing in a positive light. Hell, a good salesman can present anything in a good light. That's what makes them good salesmen. | Apr 29 05:31 |
| the_mad_hatter | Depends on who you are talking too. I know people who won't touch Open Source, but will go for Free Software. | Apr 29 05:31 |
| oiaohm_ | The big thing here the_mad_hatter there are two classes of customers. | Apr 29 05:31 |
| oiaohm_ | Some you have to use Free software with others you have to use Open source with. | Apr 29 05:32 |
| the_mad_hatter | No, you can't present "anything" in a positive light. Try presenting Hurricane Katrina in a positive light. | Apr 29 05:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Use the wrong term producted will not be touched. | Apr 29 05:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Some people line up open with poor secuirty. | Apr 29 05:32 |
| the_mad_hatter | You have to speak the customer's language. | Apr 29 05:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Those you have to use free software. | Apr 29 05:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Some line up free software with junk. | Apr 29 05:32 |
| give me an audience, and I'll make Katrina sound positive. | Apr 29 05:33 | |
| oiaohm_ | After all the free/trial ware out there. | Apr 29 05:33 |
| the_mad_hatter | Go ahead. | Apr 29 05:33 |
| the_mad_hatter | Right now. | Apr 29 05:33 |
| I'd rather not, but there are some sick people out there and you can cater to their needs | Apr 29 05:33 | |
| ushimitsudoki1 | the_mad_hatter: A terrible natural disaster that nonetheless led to a rebuilt and reinvigorated city. And that's in 2 sec from a non-master salesman. | Apr 29 05:33 |
| the_mad_hatter | That's not a positive message. | Apr 29 05:33 |
| that's not a bad start | Apr 29 05:33 | |
| oiaohm_ | There is no hard and fast rules with the use of open source and free software. It what term suits customer best. | Apr 29 05:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Idea that open source=null is wrong. | Apr 29 05:34 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | the_mad_hatter: Your style of "debate" is basically: "No." | Apr 29 05:34 |
| cleaned out the riff raff, made it stronger and better than ever, blah, blah, blah | Apr 29 05:34 | |
| oiaohm_ | That is only true for some customers the_mad_hatter | Apr 29 05:34 |
| the_mad_hatter | A positive message would be "New Orleans is a wonderful international city, with a vibrant culture" | Apr 29 05:34 |
| oiaohm_ | Just like device makers take licencing conditions very seriously. | Apr 29 05:34 |
| bullshit does not change reality, no matter how "good" a liar you have | Apr 29 05:35 | |
| non free software is expensive, buggy and restrictive | Apr 29 05:35 | |
| oiaohm_ | Secuirty side lie never get a contract again. | Apr 29 05:35 |
| free software has none of these problems. | Apr 29 05:35 | |
| people know it. | Apr 29 05:35 | |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Anyway, I think I've said all I can say about the matter. I think licensing can be presented in a positive light, and especially so for FLOSS. I even think commerical software vendors *try* to present thier licensing options in a postive light (to varying degrees of success) | Apr 29 05:35 |
| the_mad_hatter | If I have a choice between GPL vs an Open Source license, I will take GPL. | Apr 29 05:36 |
| oiaohm_ | GPL is a open source licence. | Apr 29 05:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Again it comes down to customer. | Apr 29 05:36 |
| free software can be presented in a very good light because freedom is good for everyone. | Apr 29 05:36 | |
| the_mad_hatter | GPL is Free Software license. | Apr 29 05:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Its also a Open source licence. | Apr 29 05:36 |
| oiaohm_ | You can call GPL either. | Apr 29 05:36 |
| "Open Source" is a distraction. | Apr 29 05:36 | |
| the_mad_hatter | Agreed. | Apr 29 05:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Some customers it better to call it GPL. | Apr 29 05:37 |
| As Molgen pointed out, it was a 10 year waste of time that led nowhere | Apr 29 05:37 | |
| It's either free or it is not | Apr 29 05:37 | |
| oiaohm_ | Not exactly no where. | Apr 29 05:37 |
| the_mad_hatter | I have a low opinion of Eric Raymond. | Apr 29 05:37 |
| oiaohm_ | The term has been useful. | Apr 29 05:37 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | twitter: exactly so. it is the "freedom" message that won me over - reliability and cost were not really concerns for me. However, I realize that other people/organizations might have different priorities, so it is important to try to understand and explain all positive aspects of FLOSS, because different points will be effective on different customers | Apr 29 05:37 |
| oiaohm_ | With the pounding term free has taken from shareware and trial ware its been useful. | Apr 29 05:38 |
| the_mad_hatter | To make a sale, you have to understand the customer's concerns. | Apr 29 05:38 |
| No one likes restrictions, they get in the way of everyone's priorities | Apr 29 05:38 | |
| oiaohm_ | Exactly the_mad_hatter | Apr 29 05:38 |
| oiaohm_ | You also have to use the terms the customer does not respond to vial over. | Apr 29 05:38 |
| Free software is backed by all the arguments for freedom, free economies, etc. | Apr 29 05:38 | |
| the_mad_hatter | Now if the customer has already been hit by the BSA, or asks about BSA audits, then is the time to talk licensing. | Apr 29 05:38 |
| oiaohm_ | Some people have had free software used to describe trial and shareware. | Apr 29 05:39 |
| oiaohm_ | They don't take well to the term. | Apr 29 05:39 |
| It is easy to clear that up | Apr 29 05:39 | |
| ushimitsudoki1 | oiaohm_: That's right, a lot of organizations are intentionally and agressively trying to dilute, distort or co-opt the "Open" and "Free" tags. | Apr 29 05:39 |
| the_mad_hatter | Never had a problem myself. Though I have to admit Stallman scares some people. | Apr 29 05:39 |
| Sure, M$ wants people to instinctively recoil at free software | Apr 29 05:40 | |
| the_mad_hatter | I love the guy. | Apr 29 05:40 |
| they poison the market with loads of libel. | Apr 29 05:40 | |
| oiaohm_ | In fact more often that not with guys I know that do under stand licences I use the licence tag it self. | Apr 29 05:40 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | And some distort it even within the community for ideological (not malicious) reasons. I think we all know that even some respected and honest people disagee on exactly what "open source" means | Apr 29 05:40 |
| oiaohm_ | Like GPL BSD ... | Apr 29 05:41 |
| oiaohm_ | Because since they know and trust that I know I will not get vial responce. | Apr 29 05:41 |
| oiaohm_ | vial responce really screws up sales pitch. | Apr 29 05:41 |
| no, it's better to talk about freedom. | Apr 29 05:41 | |
| oiaohm_ | Secuirty guyes don't want to hear the world freedom. | Apr 29 05:42 |
| "This software comes with no restrictions. You can do whatever you want with it but restrict it." | Apr 29 05:42 | |
| oiaohm_ | Since they are about restricting freedom. | Apr 29 05:42 |
| What kind of security comes from restricting freedom? Jails are dangerous places. | Apr 29 05:42 | |
| oiaohm_ | Another reason why free failed badly in some markets. | Apr 29 05:42 |
| the_mad_hatter | hehe. Jails aren't dangerous. | Apr 29 05:43 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | sadly, freedom is not very effective I have found in "selling" Linux - even though as I said, it is the main factor to me, the sad fact is most people don't really care about freedom | Apr 29 05:43 |
| oiaohm_ | You named one of my markets twitter | Apr 29 05:43 |
| You are going in circles. Security does not sell, but you can't sell freedom to security... | Apr 29 05:43 | |
| It's better software because it is unrestricted, just like the West was richer than the USSR. | Apr 29 05:44 | |
| oiaohm_ | There is no hard and fast rule other than you must use the right terms for the person you are selling to. | Apr 29 05:44 |
| The right terms always have to revolve around freedom. | Apr 29 05:44 | |
| oiaohm_ | Not allways. | Apr 29 05:44 |
| That's what free software is all about. | Apr 29 05:44 | |
| oiaohm_ | There is no hard and fast rule. | Apr 29 05:45 |
| If you are not selling freedom, you are not selling free software, you are selling something else. | Apr 29 05:45 | |
| The further away you get from selling freedom, the more you sell non free software | Apr 29 05:45 | |
| oiaohm_ | Selling data secuirty twitter | Apr 29 05:45 |
| oiaohm_ | Still of course using a lot of software you would call free software. | Apr 29 05:45 |
| So, which do you really mean, ohm, that security sells or that it does not sell? | Apr 29 05:46 | |
| oiaohm_ | Just normally sold under the tag open source. | Apr 29 05:46 |
| Open Source has gone nowhere because it leaves the door open to restrictions. | Apr 29 05:46 | |
| ushimitsudoki1 | I remember when Firefox first started really catching on, I felt like I was getting a better response talking more about reliability and features than freedom (I'm talking here about promoting firefox to normal end-users on a personal basis, so the conversations were casual and not using those keywords) | Apr 29 05:47 |
| oiaohm_ | To these businesses losing client records and the like can put them out of business twitter | Apr 29 05:47 |
| You always get better reliability and features from a free economy than you do from a restricted one like M$ and others offer. | Apr 29 05:47 | |
| So, ohm, you mean that the high reliability and security of free software are a good selling point? | Apr 29 05:48 | |
| oiaohm_ | Yep. | Apr 29 05:48 |
| I agree. | Apr 29 05:48 | |
| oiaohm_ | Just the term free software/freedom don't work too well with a person who will be appling restrictions on end users in the network. | Apr 29 05:49 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | twitter: that might be true, but it's not intuitive to most people and it's a difficult point to get across I think - there is a phenomenon where people value a high-priced item more so than the same item at a lower-cost. People are not always rational, so effective promotion often has to deal with how people percieve things more so than how things actually are | Apr 29 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/04/20... | Apr 29 05:49 |
| oiaohm_ | Since there job it counter to the idea of freedom. | Apr 29 05:49 |
| oiaohm_ | That is why its the wrong term in the wrong market. | Apr 29 05:49 |
| Sometimes you don't get what you paid for. Sometimes you just help someone buy the biggest yacht in the world. | Apr 29 05:50 | |
| oiaohm_ | I know freedom is a great idea. | Apr 29 05:50 |
| oiaohm_ | No one ever has complete freedom. | Apr 29 05:50 |
| oiaohm_ | People having to enforce restrictions on people freedom don't want to hear about it. | Apr 29 05:50 |
| oiaohm_ | It reminds them what they are doing. | Apr 29 05:51 |
| it is unfortunate that a business would not trust it's users, but free software gives the business the freedom to apply those restrictions without fear of 3rd party violations and leaks. | Apr 29 05:51 | |
| you can't get that from non free software because you can never really know what it does | Apr 29 05:51 | |
| oiaohm_ | And the term open source where they can see what the code is doing works in that market. | Apr 29 05:52 |
| realistically, you can't have data security where you don't trust your users | Apr 29 05:52 | |
| oiaohm_ | Its just one of those nasty things. | Apr 29 05:52 |
| DaemonFC | The Pirate Bay has about 3,500,000 registered users, however registration is not necessary to download non-pornographic torrents.[6] | Apr 29 05:53 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | Apr 29 05:53 |
| Open source means nothing if the software is not free. | Apr 29 05:53 | |
| oiaohm_ | I use open source as a sales tool. | Apr 29 05:53 |
| oiaohm_ | It gets foot in door. | Apr 29 05:53 |
| oiaohm_ | Were free software will not get me in door. | Apr 29 05:53 |
| If the company can't really compile and share the software, they can't swap out providers or even be sure their provider is giving them what they say. | Apr 29 05:53 | |
| oiaohm_ | I know everything you are saying twitter | Apr 29 05:54 |
| oiaohm_ | I use a lot of those points to sell products to them. | Apr 29 05:54 |
| China has "Open Source" Windows because China has the source code ... but that source code is a fairy tale without freedom. | Apr 29 05:54 | |
| oiaohm_ | China also makes redflag linux. | Apr 29 05:55 |
| If you manage to sell to your clients, you know what your clients want. | Apr 29 05:55 | |
| You have to be careful about using the terminology of non free software firms. It's designed to undermine you. | Apr 29 05:55 | |
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| oiaohm_ | Its choosing the right terminology. | Apr 29 06:01 |
| oiaohm_ | Sales is a lot harder than most people dream. | Apr 29 06:01 |
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| DaemonFC | http://torrentfreak.com/mediadef... | Apr 29 06:30 |
| DaemonFC | wma generator | Apr 29 06:30 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | Apr 29 06:30 |
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| schestowitz | 2009 will be the year of Total decline for US Jim Rogers < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w84EiCt0Lqk > | Apr 29 07:43 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch... | Apr 29 08:08 |
| schestowitz | "Several months ago, Consumer Watchdog asked Google to "cease a rumored lobbying effort aimed at allowing the sale of electronic medical records." Google responded by calling the claim totally false. Now, Consumer Watchdog's come back with evidence that Google lobbied for something health-related, and the group's demanded an explanation." | Apr 29 08:12 |
| schestowitz | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/0... Google should get out of lobbyH^H^H^rruption before it seriously damages its reputation. | Apr 29 08:13 |
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| schestowitz | Web 0.2 archivists save Geocities from deletion < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04... > | Apr 29 08:16 |
| schestowitz | Linux is still eating Sun's lunch with big OEMs. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04... | Apr 29 08:17 |
| iwmw | is there some useful geocity? | Apr 29 08:25 |
| schestowitz | http://www.computerworld.com/action/ar... "Bug in last week's Firefox 3.0.9 crashes Windows browser" I wonder if Linux is even affected at all. | Apr 29 08:26 |
| schestowitz | iwmw: yes, many | Apr 29 08:26 |
| iwmw | i just didn't meet any of interest as well as any at all :) | Apr 29 08:27 |
| schestowitz | Blogs took over | Apr 29 08:32 |
| schestowitz | Search engines don't work well for Yahoo's Geocities | Apr 29 08:32 |
| schestowitz | They also moved sites around | Apr 29 08:32 |
| schestowitz | I doubt my Web sites there is accessed | Apr 29 08:32 |
| schestowitz | *site | Apr 29 08:33 |
| schestowitz | Opera Turns 15 Today! < http://www.techtree.com/India/News/O... > | Apr 29 08:35 |
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| schestowitz | Concurrent still has a hard time.. http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta... | Apr 29 08:45 |
| schestowitz | "Bill Gatliff is the industry's leading embedded Linux instructor..." What an unfortunate name for a Linux person http://www.embedded-computing.com/ne... | Apr 29 08:47 |
| *magentar (n=magentar@94.79.154.216) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 29 08:50 | |
| schestowitz | Wow. Lance Ulanoff from IDG is a total phony. He slammed Linux for years and now admits trying for the FIRST TIME. | Apr 29 08:53 |
| schestowitz | "Google is different because it actually honors takedown requests, unlike The Pirate Bay, who tends to ridicule takedown requests." (Google Denies Similarities To The Pirate Bay http://techdirt.com/articles/200... ) | Apr 29 08:58 |
| schestowitz | No Surprise: UK Film And TV Execs Insist They Need Gov't Help Or They'll Disappear < http://techdirt.com/articles/2009042... > Make it Darwinian. Let bas business fail. | Apr 29 08:58 |
| schestowitz | Linux still gains ground in phones: http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsI... | Apr 29 09:03 |
| schestowitz | new virtualbox for Linux http://news.softpedia.com/news/Announci... That too can run XP in a VM (like Vista 7) http://www.serverwatch.com/eur/a... | Apr 29 09:04 |
| schestowitz | More driver love for Linux: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news... http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/goo... | Apr 29 09:05 |
| MinceR | geekings | Apr 29 09:13 |
| schestowitz | Sutor is being silly. Of all the posts about OIN he chose to link to Microsoft's PR about it. Where are these guys living and why do they feed Microsoft shills? | Apr 29 09:16 |
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| schestowitz | Mandriva clarifies (again) that it is in no way involved in/a victim of Microsoft's patent racketeering scheme http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/29/m... | Apr 29 09:51 |
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| oiaohm_ | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/... Ok next generation device connection. sd card. | Apr 29 10:30 |
| schestowitz | Hewlett-Packard: You Will Pay Microsoft for Any Laptop You Buy http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/2... | Apr 29 10:51 |
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| oiaohm_ | Is it to the point were MS has lost the laptop market. | Apr 29 10:54 |
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| schestowitz | Hehe. | Apr 29 11:08 |
| schestowitz | Well, I hope they offer Ubuntu or something | Apr 29 11:08 |
| schestowitz | Mandriva works well with laptops AFAIK | Apr 29 11:08 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: maybe we can zero (verb) Microsoft's profits from the bottom up, starting with netbooks | Apr 29 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Windows is already virtually free for embedded (entry level) | Apr 29 11:09 |
| schestowitz | The thing is, above the desktop, Linux already rules | Apr 29 11:09 |
| schestowitz | The biggest machines (HPC) are already dominated by Linux and servers too (quad cored and all) are good turf for Linux | Apr 29 11:10 |
| schestowitz | Embedded<netbooks<laptops<destkops<servers<HPC (or something like that | Apr 29 11:10 |
| schestowitz | Windows profit | Apr 29 11:10 |
| schestowitz | Embedded | netbooks | laptops | destkops | servers | HPC | Apr 29 11:11 |
| schestowitz | $3 $-5 - $15 in progress too expensive n/a (Windows DOA) | Apr 29 11:12 |
| schestowitz | The Inquirer seems to be continuing its sad demise. The founder left, the publication rate fell by half earlier this year and the reporting has been very poor. Yesterday they announced the release (final) of Firefox 3.5. | Apr 29 11:14 |
| schestowitz | Film Director Blasts Microsoft for Exploitation < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/... > | Apr 29 11:20 |
| oiaohm_ | Small business servers still need a good take out. | Apr 29 11:22 |
| iwmw | what's a good project server for both linux and windows? | Apr 29 11:25 |
| schestowitz | twitter's list was submitted by someone here: http://www.mixx.com/stories/4973... | Apr 29 11:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Big advantage windows has is the ADS server. | Apr 29 11:28 |
| oiaohm_ | When that goes Linux and Windows will be more level in the small business. | Apr 29 11:29 |
| oiaohm_ | To be correct MS will be in trouble because NAS makers will be able to release devices that do the same job as MS SBS server. | Apr 29 11:29 |
| oiaohm_ | There are many time bombs ticking down on MS. | Apr 29 11:30 |
| oiaohm_ | Netbooks shows you want device markers can do to the profitablity of a market. | Apr 29 11:30 |
| schestowitz | 'Darryl' still appears in our site on occasions, under one among many names (sometimes he forgets to forge E-mail addresses) under which he trolls. It's provocation for responses (playing with emotions). | Apr 29 11:31 |
| schestowitz | I never censor any comments, so... | Apr 29 11:31 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: that troll is from Australia too | Apr 29 11:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Sorry to say more Australians are Pro MS than Pro Linux. | Apr 29 11:33 |
| schestowitz | I know. | Apr 29 11:34 |
| schestowitz | Probably same in most English-speadking countries. | Apr 29 11:34 |
| oiaohm_ | Not really. | Apr 29 11:35 |
| oiaohm_ | Per head Australians buy the most MS product out of any country. | Apr 29 11:35 |
| oiaohm_ | We have the highest stack of MS fans anywhere. | Apr 29 11:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Yes really sad. | Apr 29 11:36 |
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| schestowitz | Conficker's estimated economic cost? $9.1 billion http://blogs.zdnet.com/securit... | Apr 29 11:39 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: sarcastically I'll say, send Microsoft to Austrlia | Apr 29 11:40 |
| schestowitz | That's what Britian would've done. | Apr 29 11:40 |
| schestowitz | *Britain | Apr 29 11:40 |
| oiaohm_ | Google is here at the moment marketing Linux. | Apr 29 11:40 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story... "Google is not the savior of Linux, but merely another exploiter of Linux." | Apr 29 11:44 |
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| schestowitz | Old FUD is flying again about "too many distros" | Apr 29 11:46 |
| schestowitz | There's no need for just one. | Apr 29 11:47 |
| schestowitz | Linus Says "No" | Apr 29 11:47 |
| schestowitz | Months ago: "Linus Torvalds has rejected the argument that Linux developers should pool their resources behind a single distribution." http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/246534/tor... | Apr 29 11:47 |
| oiaohm_ | There are room for mergers. | Apr 29 11:48 |
| schestowitz | People would not develop for it if there was one "Linux king" | Apr 29 11:48 |
| schestowitz | People like control and choice | Apr 29 11:48 |
| oiaohm_ | There is still room for mergers. | Apr 29 11:51 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.zdnet.com/perl... There would probably be an audience for Ogg. | Apr 29 11:51 |
| schestowitz | The Flash cr*pola dsoesn't work for me | Apr 29 11:52 |
| oiaohm_ | http://www.linuxdevices.com/ne... Another way for Linux to sneak into a house without anyone knowing. | Apr 29 12:00 |
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| schestowitz | Novell carries on poisoning Ubuntu: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/29/... | Apr 29 12:27 |
| iwmw | which countries already banned windows from education? | Apr 29 12:27 |
| schestowitz | Banned? | Apr 29 12:27 |
| iwmw | like in uk. they advised to avoid vista and office | Apr 29 12:28 |
| iwmw | in school | Apr 29 12:28 |
| iwmw | s | Apr 29 12:28 |
| schestowitz | BECTA (UK) | Apr 29 12:28 |
| schestowitz | Although MS seems to have bribed them (Again) | Apr 29 12:28 |
| schestowitz | Kerala is ditching Windows | Apr 29 12:28 |
| schestowitz | Brazil and Russian also | Apr 29 12:28 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft will try to bribe them too somehow | Apr 29 12:29 |
| schestowitz | it'[s already doing that in Russia | Apr 29 12:29 |
| schestowitz | The 'gifting' routine... coupons and stuff imposed on students.... teaching them to smoke Windows | Apr 29 12:29 |
| iwmw | i'd say that russia is already bribed | Apr 29 12:29 |
| schestowitz | iwmw: how do you know? | Apr 29 12:29 |
| schestowitz | THey have already moved some schools off Linux | Apr 29 12:29 |
| iwmw | because windows is in education plan all the time | Apr 29 12:30 |
| schestowitz | We should file formal complaint to the EC | Apr 29 12:30 |
| iwmw | and mostly products that are windows only are used for labs and stuff in universities | Apr 29 12:31 |
| iwmw | it wasn't that effed up when i studied | Apr 29 12:32 |
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| oiaohm_ | More MS keeps this up they hit there revenue streams. | Apr 29 12:45 |
| oiaohm_ | Because Linux is not going to disappear. | Apr 29 12:45 |
| oiaohm_ | MS is trying to out last. That don't work against something that cannot die simply. | Apr 29 12:45 |
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| nocturn | Hi | Apr 29 12:46 |
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| schestowitz | Hi there | Apr 29 12:48 |
| nocturn | You and I seem to have a dislike for mono in common... | Apr 29 12:48 |
| nocturn | A collegea and myself blogged about the Gnote thing and the responses were not nice | Apr 29 12:49 |
| oiaohm_ | I have a hate on mono on tech grounds. | Apr 29 12:49 |
| schestowitz | Is that the same colleague who called it "religion"? | Apr 29 12:50 |
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| nocturn | I'm the one that called it a religion | Apr 29 12:51 |
| schestowitz | It's not so much a "Mono religion" as the blogger called it. It\s a bunch of huge Microsoft fans like De Icaza who want to turn an army of volunteers (Linux) to that thing they fancy. | Apr 29 12:51 |
| nocturn | With the Jo Shields respnses | Apr 29 12:51 |
| schestowitz | Jo is one of the rudest, but there are more | Apr 29 12:52 |
| nocturn | Mine are here: http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/141 http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/142 | Apr 29 12:52 |
| schestowitz | He's the Mono packager for Ubuntu and Debian AFAIK | Apr 29 12:52 |
| nocturn | My collegea is here: http://blog.cone.be/2009/04/27... | Apr 29 12:52 |
| nocturn | We're linux consultants, so in on most of this stuff together :-) | Apr 29 12:53 |
| schestowitz | Nickname directX (directhex) | Apr 29 12:53 |
| nocturn | What is his problem anyway? | Apr 29 12:53 |
| zer0c00l | hey | Apr 29 12:53 |
| schestowitz | Wait until these people will bring you ActiveX, not just .NET | Apr 29 12:53 |
| schestowitz | And then DirectX | Apr 29 12:53 |
| schestowitz | “At Microsoft I learned the truth about ActiveX and COM and I got very interested in it inmediately [sic].” --Miguel de Icaza | Apr 29 12:53 |
| schestowitz | They just rape anyone who says anything bad about Mono | Apr 29 12:54 |
| nocturn | But I am puzzled by one thing, he pointed out: | Apr 29 12:54 |
| nocturn | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07/... | Apr 29 12:54 |
| nocturn | And linked to the bug report and debian | Apr 29 12:54 |
| nocturn | which indicated the size of the packages instead of patent issues | Apr 29 12:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Notice that they never put mono head to head with portland group complier built executables. | Apr 29 12:55 |
| oiaohm_ | Most of mono savings are smoke and mirrors. | Apr 29 12:55 |
| oiaohm_ | and poor complier function in gcc. | Apr 29 12:55 |
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| oiaohm_ | Next samba will ship with the means to be built special to support ADS. | Apr 29 13:01 |
| oiaohm_ | Ie be a ADS server. | Apr 29 13:01 |
| nocturn | oiaohm_: well, they can't claim much patents on that | Apr 29 13:04 |
| nocturn | given that AD is using MIT code for the kerberos part and the other part is built on top of LDAP | Apr 29 13:04 |
| nocturn | and they don't own patents to either, let alone that it could be obliterated with prior art | Apr 29 13:05 |
| oiaohm_ | Samba has the most documentation on windows design of any group. | Apr 29 13:05 |
| oiaohm_ | So not wise to get in a public fight with either. | Apr 29 13:05 |
| oiaohm_ | ADS servers has been one of the biggest slow downs on central Linux servers. | Apr 29 13:06 |
| oiaohm_ | Hopefully freeipa also lands on time. | Apr 29 13:08 |
| schestowitz | nocturn: catching up | Apr 29 13:15 |
| schestowitz | Yes, there are issues they avoid | Apr 29 13:16 |
| schestowitz | Ask them about TomTom | Apr 29 13:16 |
| schestowitz | Or about patents | Apr 29 13:16 |
| schestowitz | Ask them what they think of Microsoft | Apr 29 13:16 |
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| nocturn | schestowitz: and what with the debian article, if I read it correctly, your claim differs from what's in the bugreport? | Apr 29 13:29 |
| nocturn | Sorry, I'm not grilling you, rather put facts under their claims then slinging mud back at him | Apr 29 13:30 |
| schestowitz | MS advertiser: US cybersecurity 'embarrassing' < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1... > | Apr 29 13:30 |
| schestowitz | nocturn: let me check | Apr 29 13:31 |
| Novell_Gawker | So I randomly found this site. As I type this I can look out my window and see Novell's corporate HQ in Provo, UT. I had no idea that they were so scandalous I thought I could smell ass whenever I drive by there... | Apr 29 13:31 |
| schestowitz | I can't remember what it was about | Apr 29 13:31 |
| schestowitz | nocturn: main HQ is in MA | Apr 29 13:31 |
| Novell_Gawker | Oh .... Well some big building with NOVELL on it. | Apr 29 13:32 |
| Novell_Gawker | Ill go throw some fecal matter at it . | Apr 29 13:33 |
| schestowitz | You could write about them | Apr 29 13:33 |
| schestowitz | It's no longer an age when people take it to the streets | Apr 29 13:34 |
| schestowitz | Novell is very concerned about people realising what it does, and how | Apr 29 13:34 |
| schestowitz | It hired perception management firms | Apr 29 13:34 |
| Novell_Gawker | Yea, I alway thought of it as good for my community (which it probably is, economically) but man ... | Apr 29 13:35 |
| schestowitz | Well, you could cover the big "VELL" on the building :-) | Apr 29 13:35 |
| Novell_Gawker | Id have to climb it like King Kong, hold on with one paw and #hit in the other :) | Apr 29 13:36 |
| Novell_Gawker | oops, *hit | Apr 29 13:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Why Novell dieing fast enough. | Apr 29 13:37 |
| oiaohm_ | They will have to be taken over by someone. | Apr 29 13:37 |
| Novell_Gawker | Nice talking toya. Ill CTRL+D this site and return. | Apr 29 13:38 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm_: probably | Apr 29 13:39 |
| schestowitz | But by WHOM? | Apr 29 13:39 |
| schestowitz | I still can't think of who would be a perfect suitor. | Apr 29 13:40 |
| schestowitz | Maybe some company without involvement in this area | Apr 29 13:40 |
| schestowitz | Like CA or something (of course not) | Apr 29 13:40 |
| schestowitz | Any ideas? | Apr 29 13:40 |
| schestowitz | It would make sense for such a company that be an MS ally | Apr 29 13:41 |
| schestowitz | And quite a large one | Apr 29 13:41 |
| schestowitz | Not a h/w company like HP though | Apr 29 13:41 |
| nocturn | schestowitz: on boycottNovell, you claimed in 2008 that "Mono is Too Controversial for Debian | Apr 29 13:41 |
| schestowitz | Or Fujitsu | Apr 29 13:41 |
| schestowitz | nocturn: they claimed later it was another possibility | Apr 29 13:41 |
| schestowitz | To some in Debian Mono is a no-go | Apr 29 13:41 |
| nocturn | but the bugreport that is quoted in part: "* tomboy: very nice app, but controversial since it brings the | Apr 29 13:42 |
| nocturn | full Mono stack, so we don’t make it part of | Apr 29 13:42 |
| schestowitz | To some it's a legal isue | Apr 29 13:42 |
| schestowitz | To others it's to do with size | Apr 29 13:42 |
| schestowitz | Or bloat | Apr 29 13:42 |
| nocturn | is not about legal issues but size | Apr 29 13:42 |
| nocturn | yes | Apr 29 13:42 |
| nocturn | that's the point Shields is using against me | Apr 29 13:42 |
| schestowitz | there are others in Debian | Apr 29 13:42 |
| schestowitz | Some dislike it for legal reasons | Apr 29 13:42 |
| schestowitz | See the recent issue around Moonblight[sic] | Apr 29 13:42 |
| schestowitz | Shields is THE pro-Mono guy in Debian | Apr 29 13:43 |
| schestowitz | It's like asking the Java guy at Sun if Python is better | Apr 29 13:43 |
| iwmw | i think that java is dumb and python is slow XD | Apr 29 13:44 |
| oiaohm_ | Size of what nocturn | Apr 29 13:45 |
| nocturn | oiaohm_: mono | Apr 29 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | Mono guys like using size on disk. | Apr 29 13:45 |
| iwmw | but good enough for projecteuler.net | Apr 29 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | for the program | Apr 29 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | skipping over run time and ram usage. | Apr 29 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT comes with a price. | Apr 29 13:45 |
| nocturn | I'm not even touching on those points | Apr 29 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | No JIT is magic. | Apr 29 13:45 |
| nocturn | Java is also slow and consumes ram | Apr 29 13:45 |
| nocturn | but it's free now | Apr 29 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | You do have gcj option with java. | Apr 29 13:46 |
| oiaohm_ | Also there is not a key program that everyone uses that is coded fully in java. | Apr 29 13:47 |
| oiaohm_ | Why should mono get special treatment. | Apr 29 13:47 |
| iwmw | nocturn: java is not that slow | Apr 29 13:48 |
| oiaohm_ | java can be faster than .net | Apr 29 13:48 |
| schestowitz | Speed myths | Apr 29 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Like MS vs OOo. | Apr 29 13:49 |
| iwmw | java has like 10-15% performance loss vs c++ | Apr 29 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Yes, but C++ is hard to beat | Apr 29 13:49 |
| oiaohm_ | C++ done with what complier. | Apr 29 13:49 |
| iwmw | and python is very slow | Apr 29 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Being sped up | Apr 29 13:49 |
| schestowitz | 5 times (Google) | Apr 29 13:49 |
| oiaohm_ | C++ performance is very complier dependant. | Apr 29 13:49 |
| iwmw | yup, but there are good compilers nowadays | Apr 29 13:50 |
| oiaohm_ | msvc runs rings around gcc at c++ code and portland group complier runs rings around msvc. | Apr 29 13:50 |
| oiaohm_ | Gcc is one of the worst compliers for optimsing code still. | Apr 29 13:50 |
| oiaohm_ | Lack of complete program optmisation hurts like hell. | Apr 29 13:51 |
| iwmw | all these complete optimisations take too much time | Apr 29 13:51 |
| oiaohm_ | LOL | Apr 29 13:51 |
| nocturn | Ok, but slowness and ram usage are only worth discussing if the tech is free | Apr 29 13:51 |
| nocturn | Java wasn't until recently | Apr 29 13:51 |
| nocturn | so, now it's ok | Apr 29 13:51 |
| iwmw | so compilers implement only fast optimisations | Apr 29 13:52 |
| nocturn | Mono IMO still is not | Apr 29 13:52 |
| oiaohm_ | portland group complier gets finished before gcc even when doing complete program optimisations. | Apr 29 13:52 |
| oiaohm_ | Main reason is the complier it self has been complete program optmised. | Apr 29 13:52 |
| nocturn | so it could be fast as light and using 1K to run 100 programs, it's still non-free | Apr 29 13:52 |
| oiaohm_ | Gcc has lto opt tree iwmw | Apr 29 13:53 |
| oiaohm_ | Opps lto tree . Link time optimisation that is complete program optmisation. | Apr 29 13:53 |
| oiaohm_ | So far not ready for main time. | Apr 29 13:53 |
| iwmw | what link time optimisation does? | Apr 29 13:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Run optimisation when you link the object of a program into a executable. | Apr 29 13:54 |
| schestowitz | I received a lot of E-mails from MICROWORD CORPORATIONS these days | Apr 29 13:54 |
| oiaohm_ | So things like hello world reduce to 100 bytes. | Apr 29 13:54 |
| iwmw | i mean... what kind of optimisation is that, oiaohm_ ? | Apr 29 13:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Instead of the 8 kb current. | Apr 29 13:54 |
| iwmw | ah, nice | Apr 29 13:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Lot smaller lot faster. | Apr 29 13:55 |
| schestowitz | Also, what java? | Apr 29 13:55 |
| schestowitz | There's no one | Apr 29 13:55 |
| iwmw | not faster but smaller | Apr 29 13:55 |
| oiaohm_ | Both. | Apr 29 13:55 |
| schestowitz | *not | Apr 29 13:55 |
| oiaohm_ | Functions that solve out between objects are removed. | Apr 29 13:55 |
| schestowitz | It's like in scientific benchmarks | Apr 29 13:55 |
| schestowitz | People implement test data/methods poorly | Apr 29 13:55 |
| oiaohm_ | So less cpu processing time required iwmw | Apr 29 13:55 |
| schestowitz | To support their hypothesis | Apr 29 13:55 |
| oiaohm_ | You think running threw 7 kb of code to print hello world is not wasting cpu time iwmw | Apr 29 13:56 |
| oiaohm_ | Gcc program production is ew. | Apr 29 13:57 |
| trmanco | "The all-new Yahoo! Mail has not been tested with your operating system. | Apr 29 13:57 |
| trmanco | You can choose to continue anyway, or simply go to Yahoo! Mail Classic." | Apr 29 13:57 |
| trmanco | qtf | Apr 29 13:57 |
| oiaohm_ | Full program optmisation is not that costly. Most of the fast optimisations are currently only done on a object by object base. When you rerun those fast optmisations over everything the ammout applications size that disappears is scary. | Apr 29 14:00 |
| iwmw | hm... so they don't optimise properly | Apr 29 14:04 |
| oiaohm_ | Gcc cannot optimise properly. | Apr 29 14:04 |
| oiaohm_ | per object so you can have like a few 1000 objects to a program. | Apr 29 14:04 |
| oiaohm_ | So at no time the optimiser can see the big picture. | Apr 29 14:05 |
| oiaohm_ | You end up with stacks of crap everywhere. | Apr 29 14:05 |
| iwmw | and intel is going to fix dat? | Apr 29 14:05 |
| MinceR | that means you'll have to do something with the traditional compiler/assembler/linker model | Apr 29 14:06 |
| MinceR | even make | Apr 29 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | linker in binutils does not know how to optmise. | Apr 29 14:06 |
| iwmw | for sure | Apr 29 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | So what ever is in the object when they get there ends up in the executable. | Apr 29 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | Currently. | Apr 29 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | You need a optmiser in the linking stage. | Apr 29 14:07 |
| iwmw | i'm not quite sure how it should work | Apr 29 14:07 |
| MinceR | leaving out unneeded objects shouldn't be difficult | Apr 29 14:07 |
| oiaohm_ | Problem here is solving out functions inside objects. | Apr 29 14:07 |
| MinceR | inlining functions works because for such functions the source is used anyway | Apr 29 14:07 |
| iwmw | objects like functions and data, MinceR ? | Apr 29 14:07 |
| oiaohm_ | .o files | Apr 29 14:07 |
| MinceR | mostly functions | Apr 29 14:08 |
| MinceR | what oiaohm_ said :) | Apr 29 14:08 |
| MinceR | the linker does know about symbols | Apr 29 14:08 |
| iwmw | yup | Apr 29 14:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Problem here is linker is dumb. | Apr 29 14:08 |
| oiaohm_ | If you use 1 function out a object the complete object gets included. | Apr 29 14:08 |
| iwmw | i know how it all works approximately but am not sure what linker should optimise besides removal of unneeded objects | Apr 29 14:09 |
| oiaohm_ | Because linker cannot work out what bits you did not need. | Apr 29 14:09 |
| oiaohm_ | Because it does not have the optmiser like the gcc has. | Apr 29 14:09 |
| iwmw | oiaohm_: but it means that that hello world program will work just the same time | Apr 29 14:09 |
| iwmw | 100 bytes of 8kb | Apr 29 14:09 |
| oiaohm_ | Yep | Apr 29 14:09 |
| oiaohm_ | But be faster | Apr 29 14:09 |
| iwmw | nope? | Apr 29 14:10 |
| iwmw | only at load time | Apr 29 14:10 |
| oiaohm_ | Because lot of non require functions would ahve been solved out. | Apr 29 14:10 |
| oiaohm_ | That would have been run other wise. | Apr 29 14:10 |
| iwmw | it influences on size | Apr 29 14:10 |
| oiaohm_ | size and speed. | Apr 29 14:10 |
| iwmw | only size | Apr 29 14:10 |
| oiaohm_ | No both. | Apr 29 14:10 |
| iwmw | and the speed of loading the image | Apr 29 14:10 |
| oiaohm_ | Speed of running the code. | Apr 29 14:10 |
| iwmw | +relocations and stuff | Apr 29 14:10 |
| iwmw | in which way? | Apr 29 14:11 |
| iwmw | linker as you said should only remove unneeded objects | Apr 29 14:11 |
| iwmw | that are not used in either case | Apr 29 14:11 |
| oiaohm_ | Because to get down to 100 bytes lot of functions have been removed because the data they retrieved from system would have never been used. | Apr 29 14:11 |
| oiaohm_ | Like the command line. | Apr 29 14:11 |
| oiaohm_ | It gets processed allways even that hello world is not using it. | Apr 29 14:11 |
| iwmw | that's actually not a linker's task | Apr 29 14:11 |
| iwmw | but compiler | Apr 29 14:12 |
| oiaohm_ | crt0.o object I guess you don't know what that is. | Apr 29 14:12 |
| oiaohm_ | It the object that does the command line processing and other bits. | Apr 29 14:12 |
| iwmw | c run-time? | Apr 29 14:12 |
| oiaohm_ | Its tacked onto the start of every program. | Apr 29 14:12 |
| oiaohm_ | All of it. | Apr 29 14:13 |
| iwmw | mkay then, it will be a bit faster | Apr 29 14:13 |
| iwmw | like a very little bit | Apr 29 14:13 |
| oiaohm_ | 1 /1000 of the time to complete really. | Apr 29 14:13 |
| oiaohm_ | Hello world is the most extream case. | Apr 29 14:14 |
| iwmw | yeah, hello world is an insane program | Apr 29 14:14 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically the gcc optmiser has all the features to cut the code size and speed it up. But its not processed at the linking stage. | Apr 29 14:15 |
| oiaohm_ | So it basically does not work. | Apr 29 14:15 |
| oiaohm_ | link time optmisation alterations are about getting the optmiser in the right place. | Apr 29 14:16 |
| oiaohm_ | Gcc is broken and has been for years. | Apr 29 14:17 |
| iwmw | yeah, there also should be a tool to trace the program on some test data set and remove unneeded code as well | Apr 29 14:17 |
| oiaohm_ | Gcc has profile guided optmisation. | Apr 29 14:17 |
| oiaohm_ | Again it does not work correctly due to link time optimisation being missing. | Apr 29 14:18 |
| oiaohm_ | profile guided optmisation is that remove uneeded code and work out function order based on test data. | Apr 29 14:18 |
| oiaohm_ | Altering the function order of a application can cut its memory usage by 30 percent. | Apr 29 14:19 |
| nocturn | Ok, I'm of now. See you later | Apr 29 14:19 |
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| oiaohm_ | Simple fact almost every form of optmisation known to complier developers exists in gcc. | Apr 29 14:20 |
| oiaohm_ | All bar 2. One is link time optmisation kinda key. | Apr 29 14:20 |
| oiaohm_ | Other is automatic threading of a single threaded path. | Apr 29 14:20 |
| iwmw | so only linker is completely out of date? | Apr 29 14:20 |
| oiaohm_ | It was out of date 15 years ago. | Apr 29 14:21 |
| iwmw | threading is kinda new kind of optimisation | Apr 29 14:21 |
| MinceR | why is there nobody working on that then? | Apr 29 14:21 |
| oiaohm_ | Threading optimiation was first done by portland group complier 12 years ago. | Apr 29 14:21 |
| oiaohm_ | We are not talking about new stuff here. | Apr 29 14:22 |
| oiaohm_ | To make link time and threading optimisation work means cleaning up all the design mess inside the complier. | Apr 29 14:22 |
| MinceR | link time optimization has nothing to do with the compiler | Apr 29 14:23 |
| MinceR | and everything to do with the linker | Apr 29 14:23 |
| oiaohm_ | link time optimzation done well reuses the same optmisater as in the complier. | Apr 29 14:23 |
| iwmw | oiaohm_: btw, which way linker should find out that command line is not needed for the program? | Apr 29 14:23 |
| oiaohm_ | Same way the compliers optmiser can iwmw | Apr 29 14:23 |
| MinceR | that sort of optimization would only save compilation time in the compiler, wouldn't it? | Apr 29 14:23 |
| iwmw | no, oiaohm_ | Apr 29 14:23 |
| iwmw | compiler is working with trees | Apr 29 14:24 |
| oiaohm_ | If you did gcc crt0.c 2.c 3.c | Apr 29 14:24 |
| oiaohm_ | Ie no runtime .o linked in. | Apr 29 14:24 |
| oiaohm_ | gcc can process though the full tree of the program. | Apr 29 14:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Instead of segments. | Apr 29 14:25 |
| iwmw | linker just can't find out whether command line is needed later in the program | Apr 29 14:25 |
| iwmw | it won't disassemble and magically find out what the proggy was up to | Apr 29 14:26 |
| MinceR | oiaohm_: even then the linker is called to turn it into an executable, isn't it? | Apr 29 14:26 |
| iwmw | yup | Apr 29 14:26 |
| MinceR | (at least my asm experience tells me so) | Apr 29 14:26 |
| MinceR | (even though that was on dos :) ) | Apr 29 14:26 |
| oiaohm_ | You know gcc has a byte code called gimple. | Apr 29 14:26 |
| MinceR | i've never heard of it | Apr 29 14:27 |
| oiaohm_ | That is connected to the object holding data about the code it contains. | Apr 29 14:27 |
| oiaohm_ | When you build a program in gcc it gets turned to gimple for processing. | Apr 29 14:27 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically gimple is a binary form of all the data that was in the source code. | Apr 29 14:27 |
| oiaohm_ | So no disasm needed. | Apr 29 14:28 |
| oiaohm_ | You can tag sections needing to have vars and the like used to remain in the final program. | Apr 29 14:28 |
| iwmw | mkay... that's kinda enough for linker | Apr 29 14:29 |
| oiaohm_ | Also it is possiable to reverse asm into gimple. | Apr 29 14:30 |
| oiaohm_ | Lot of things are possiable. | Apr 29 14:30 |
| iwmw | yup | Apr 29 14:30 |
| oiaohm_ | gimple processing is what all optmisations in gcc do. | Apr 29 14:30 |
| oiaohm_ | Reason why they are language independant. | Apr 29 14:31 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically the idea that .net has an advantage because it has a byte code is crap. Gcc has a internal bytecode. | Apr 29 14:32 |
| iwmw | every compiler has internal bytecode | Apr 29 14:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Not every. | Apr 29 14:32 |
| iwmw | otherwise it's childish thingy | Apr 29 14:32 |
| oiaohm_ | There are some that use raw asm internally. | Apr 29 14:33 |
| iwmw | that's crap | Apr 29 14:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Also they are small and fast. | Apr 29 14:33 |
| iwmw | i've done that thing on labs long ago | Apr 29 14:33 |
| oiaohm_ | And optmise like dogs. | Apr 29 14:33 |
| iwmw | no they don't optimise | Apr 29 14:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Some do asm level optmisations. | Apr 29 14:34 |
| iwmw | they are weak | Apr 29 14:34 |
| iwmw | no, they actually should make asm level optimisations | Apr 29 14:34 |
| oiaohm_ | Lack of detail limits the optimisations they can do. | Apr 29 14:34 |
| iwmw | like registers usage rearrangement | Apr 29 14:34 |
| oiaohm_ | bytecode provides a lot more information on the code. | Apr 29 14:34 |
| oiaohm_ | so you can place like inline instructions and the like. | Apr 29 14:35 |
| MinceR | someone here once said that bytecode is just a crutch to avoid having to understand machine code. :> | Apr 29 14:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Inside compliers you need more detail than machine code can store. | Apr 29 14:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Like has this been used anywhere. | Apr 29 14:37 |
| oiaohm_ | bytecode contains all the information of the machine code + extra basicaly. | Apr 29 14:37 |
| iwmw | or replace some shitty algorithm with another | Apr 29 14:37 |
| oiaohm_ | There are places for bytecodes just not many., | Apr 29 14:38 |
| *iwmw gone smoking | Apr 29 14:38 | |
| oiaohm_ | Also avoiding optmisations from having to understand machine code also makes the cross machine type. | Apr 29 14:41 |
| iwmw | there are code generator optimisations as well | Apr 29 14:43 |
| oiaohm_ | They are limited to language design limits. | Apr 29 14:44 |
| oiaohm_ | Bytecode has broader limits in what they can do. | Apr 29 14:45 |
| iwmw | what's limited to language design limits? | Apr 29 14:45 |
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| oiaohm_ | code generator optimisations. | Apr 29 14:47 |
| iwmw | no | Apr 29 14:47 |
| oiaohm_ | Opps thinkign wrong one. | Apr 29 14:47 |
| oiaohm_ | I was thinking the code rewriters. | Apr 29 14:47 |
| iwmw | in either case... optimisations should be all ova the compiler | Apr 29 14:47 |
| oiaohm_ | At least you can now see the huge mother of problem in gcc. | Apr 29 14:48 |
| oiaohm_ | and binutil combination. | Apr 29 14:49 |
| iwmw | developers of bloatware should be optimisations-addicted | Apr 29 14:50 |
| oiaohm_ | This case gcc is causing the bloat. | Apr 29 14:51 |
| oiaohm_ | lack of link time optmisation also means like c++ library does not solve out where it could either. | Apr 29 14:51 |
| oiaohm_ | Every C++ program is even worse over size than C programs. | Apr 29 14:52 |
| oiaohm_ | If your complier and linker don't work right getting performance out of programs is hard. | Apr 29 14:53 |
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| Eruaran | hello | Apr 29 14:57 |
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| schestowitz | Someone I missed it: Controversy Haunts Linux-based DD-WRT-- GPL Violator? Betrayer of Open Source? < http://www.linuxplanet.com/linux... > | Apr 29 14:58 |
| schestowitz | http://www.wwj.com/B-ham-Native--E... "a former Microsoft Corp. executive. He says the days of proprietary software are numbered and companies like Microsoft are likely doomed" | Apr 29 15:01 |
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| Omar87 | HI all | Apr 29 15:03 |
| Omar87 | Hi* | Apr 29 15:03 |
| Eruaran | hi | Apr 29 15:05 |
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| Balrog | anti android fud from pcworld | Apr 29 15:10 |
| Balrog | <http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,...> | Apr 29 15:10 |
| Eruaran | Microsoft thinks businesses are going to upgrade their hardware to run Windows 7 with Virtual PC for "XP Mode" so they can run their old Windows XP applications... So, buy new stuff so they can do what they're already doing... | Apr 29 15:14 |
| Eruaran | Furthermore, they think we, the OEM's, are going to pre-install this crap for users who are dumb enough to buy into this load of rubbish. | Apr 29 15:15 |
| Eruaran | Vista7+VirualPC+XPMode... More work for us to do... | Apr 29 15:16 |
| Balrog | the OEMs will be forced to | Apr 29 15:16 |
| Eruaran | In other news we installed Kubuntu 9.04 on three systems today. | Apr 29 15:16 |
| Eruaran | Installed Kubuntu on this 4 year old Toshiba Tecra... even I was blown away by the performance. | Apr 29 15:17 |
| Eruaran | Also installed Kubuntu on a rather nice new Fujitsu. | Apr 29 15:17 |
| Eruaran | It was a good day :) | Apr 29 15:17 |
| schestowitz | Vista 7 won't be adopted | Apr 29 15:19 |
| schestowitz | Businesses will reject it | Apr 29 15:19 |
| schestowitz | And by 2010 not many people will be willing/able to buy new PCs | Apr 29 15:20 |
| schestowitz | They'll go for low-end | Apr 29 15:20 |
| schestowitz | Like sub-notebooks | Apr 29 15:20 |
| schestowitz | Eruaran: someone from Germany leaked an E-mail about ASUS getting kickbacks from Microsoft to install Windows. | Apr 29 15:20 |
| schestowitz | wait until they say that units for which they get no kickbacks (Linux) are offered with worse specs and sold less | Apr 29 15:21 |
| schestowitz | I see the IDG FUD now. MSNBC (Microsoft) did the same thing at the same time (last week). | Apr 29 15:21 |
| schestowitz | The MS talking points.... | Apr 29 15:22 |
| Balrog | right now, netbooks with xp have worse specs than those with linux | Apr 29 15:22 |
| Eruaran | we knew they got an offer they couldn't refuse | Apr 29 15:22 |
| Balrog | yeah... | Apr 29 15:23 |
| Balrog | ( I was talking about dell) | Apr 29 15:23 |
| schestowitz | Seems like Black Duck lost another one: http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/s... | Apr 29 15:24 |
| schestowitz | Then filled it up | Apr 29 15:24 |
| schestowitz | They don't like me because I tell people what they do and where they came from. | Apr 29 15:24 |
| Eruaran | Were steadily building up our Linux customer base | Apr 29 15:26 |
| trmanco | Report: Conficker in attack mode: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_... | Apr 29 15:26 |
| Eruaran | The idea is that by the time this appears on Microsoft's radar, any threats (or "incentives") will mean about as much to us as they might for System76. | Apr 29 15:27 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Can you please remove aeshna23's comment about "Uighur muslims"? Because, I don't know, it just kind of insulted me as a Muslim, plus, it's totally off-topic. | Apr 29 15:27 |
| schestowitz | Meh. Google is down for me. | Apr 29 15:27 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: it's totally off topic, but we never deleted comments | Apr 29 15:28 |
| Eruaran | I have a feeling that old Toshiba notebook is going to cause waves. | Apr 29 15:29 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Oh, okay, well. | Apr 29 15:29 |
| Balrog | google works here | Apr 29 15:29 |
| schestowitz | Yeah | Apr 29 15:29 |
| Eruaran | It's doing things no notebook its age is supposed to be doing ;) | Apr 29 15:29 |
| schestowitz | My whole network slowed down when trmanco posted that | Apr 29 15:29 |
| schestowitz | Omar87: we have all sorts of troll post comments sometimes. | Apr 29 15:29 |
| trmanco | w00t | Apr 29 15:30 |
| schestowitz | I can't even open that link | Apr 29 15:30 |
| Eruaran | We also did a dual boot for a guy. | Apr 29 15:30 |
| schestowitz | MS tax | Apr 29 15:30 |
| schestowitz | Or... | Apr 29 15:30 |
| schestowitz | Dual-booting Linuxes :-) like mine | Apr 29 15:30 |
| Eruaran | Linux was fine, picked up his wireless card and wireless Microsoft keyboard and mouse no problems... he had no end of problems with Windows though... and his comment amused me: "So, Linux is actually easier than Windows..." | Apr 29 15:31 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: lol, yeah, which means all I need to do is basically ignore it, as though it never existed. :) | Apr 29 15:31 |
| trmanco | wtf | Apr 29 15:32 |
| Eruaran | I think I've spent half the day muttering, "hehe". | Apr 29 15:32 |
| trmanco | net neutrality | Apr 29 15:32 |
| trmanco | :| | Apr 29 15:32 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: However I posted a reply about it there, I told that it's not acceptable, and it's off-topic.. etc. Which is more than enough. | Apr 29 15:33 |
| Omar87 | schestowitz: Thanks Roy. :) | Apr 29 15:33 |
| trmanco | this can't be approved by the Europeans can't allow this to come true | Apr 29 15:33 |
| trmanco | this can't be approved by the Europeans* | Apr 29 15:34 |
| schestowitz | FOSS FUD from ZDNET. Check: "Chad Perrin is an IT consultant, developer, and freelance professional writer. He holds both Microsoft and CompTIA certifications and is a graduate of two IT industry trade schools." http://www.zdnetasia.com/techguide/secur... | Apr 29 15:37 |
| schestowitz | DNS seems down or something | Apr 29 15:38 |
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| Eruaran | schestowitz: I put in my request with Four Corners, hopefully with a bit of luck we'll see an expose on Microsoft some time in the next few months ;) | Apr 29 15:43 |
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| schestowitz | Every time COnficker strikes I have connecticvity issues | Apr 29 15:45 |
| schestowitz | Not a single time has it happened without lots of coverage about COnficker in the press | Apr 29 15:45 |
| schestowitz | Now I see why it's claimed to have cost $9.1 billion (if I recall the details) | Apr 29 15:46 |
| schestowitz | And this morning the BBC had an article about it also | Apr 29 15:46 |
| schestowitz | That too should warrant a complain of some formal nature :-) | Apr 29 15:46 |
| Balrog | more conficker coverage in the press? | Apr 29 15:47 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Apr 29 15:47 |
| Balrog | hrm, I wonder what is going on. | Apr 29 15:47 |
| schestowitz | "The Conficker threat has a new twist, with the worm now reportedly installing a second mass-mailing virus that many know as Waledac." | Apr 29 15:49 |
| Balrog | hm. | Apr 29 15:50 |
| schestowitz | I waste my time network testing now... | Apr 29 15:51 |
| schestowitz | :( | Apr 29 15:51 |
| schestowitz | back in a moment | Apr 29 15:51 |
| Balrog | schestowitz: why not use something like opendns? | Apr 29 15:51 |
| schestowitz | I don't think it's just DNS this time | Apr 29 15:52 |