Bonum Certa Men Certa

Flashback 2003: Debian has always had a toxic culture

posted by Roy Schestowitz on Mar 18, 2024

Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock.

People are estimating that Debian has spent over $200,000 paying women to be volunteers through Outreachy. At the end of their Outreachy programs, they all disappear. Would it be better to use this money to get advice about fixing the culture? The payments to women are an admission that Debian culture is bad and women won't have anything to do with it voluntarily.

Despite everybody knowing the culture of the group is the root of all evil, they continue to look for scapegoats. If they can just punish one more person, everybody else will behave nicely, Debian will be "safe" and women will join.

Here is an email from the debian-private (widely leaked) gossip network giving an insight into the culture in 2003. It looks a lot like the culture today. In 20 years, despite all the forced resignations and expulsions nothing really changed.

Subject: Re: Fwd: Rejecting NM applicant Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 20:47:58 +0000 (UTC)
From: Martin Wheeler <msw@startext.demon.co.uk>
To: mark@dulug.duke.edu
CC: debian-private@lists.debian.org

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 mark@dulug.duke.edu wrote:
> > Dang. Maybe we should streamline our process. > > Double dang. If we can't find a way to get Norm in (who BTW offered to maintain > all the DocBook packages), then something about the application process needs to > be fixed.
. . .
> > I am rejecting the Debian New Maintainer Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> on > > his own request. Norman, unfortunatly, does not have enough time to spend > > for the NM process
I heartily concur.
I too, have abandoned the process of attempting to become an NM. And, I suspect, for many of the same reasons. Having had to wait for over a year for any real response to my initial enthusiasm, I had already lost most of my interest in becoming a DD (for documentation only), and had only lukewarm reactions to the mails I eventually received. (Mainly upbraiding me with comments like: "you have to really, really want this, you know" -- at the same time making me wonder why the hell I ever thought I might want to join this group of narcissistic navel-gazers -- and generally attempting to make me feel like a fourth-class citizen because my interests lie only in lowly documentation, NOT in the highly-valued elite skills of programming/packaging.)
Overall, I was given a very strong impression that DDs regard themselves as being the 'l33test of the 'l33t; that in going through the NM process it is more important to be recognised as being a putative member of a highly exclusive undergraduate-style sorority / club than it is to have any technical expertise to offer to the group; and that unwarranted sobbery and attitudes of exclusivity of the group reign supreme. (Really. This attitude came over to me more strongly than any other -- which surprised me greatly, as I am personally acquainted with a few DDs, none of whom comes over to me in that way at all.)
Frankly though, I eventually lost interest. (Is it any wonder?) To the point where I couldn't even be bothered to reply any more to any of the mails I received. (Round about the P&P stage.) There was NO real or effective dialogue between myself and the group I thought I could offer something to; and in fact, very little real desire to offer anything any more, on my part. Is it any wonder then that in these circumstances once-enthusiastic folks just quietly drift away?
My last dealings with the NM process were when I went on an irc channel -- to be met instantly with a hostile: "what are you doing here? I thought we got rid of you two weeks ago."
Why on earth should I persist in trying to offer my skills to a group like that?
Genuinely puzzled,

Here is what the thread looks like. Women seem to have a nose for this type of thing. They feel really uncomfortable when their name appears in something like this so they don't even begin to get involved.

Norman Walsh, Debian, gossip

Other Recent Techrights' Posts

Who Imitates Who? Plagiarist as Client (From Microsoft), 'Plagiarism' at the Law Firm?
let's revisit the subject
Links 10/06/2025: Jaws at 50 and US Democracy Crushed Very Rapidly (Martial Law Seems Imminent)
Links for the day
Abuse Inside the Polish Patent Office (UPRP) - Part VII: Washing Their Hands After Corruption and Abuse
"Tragedy or comedy?"
Culling Bad RSS Feeds of Bad Sites
Not throwing out the baby with the bathwater
 
IBM's CEO Roasted, Sizzled and Grilled for Dumb and Inconsistent Vapourware Promises
It looks like being a chronic liar is what it takes to lead the company once synonymous with computing
IBM's Goal Is Not (and Never Was) Computer Users' Freedom
More than 1.5 decades ago I found IBM to be an "ally of convenience" because of OpenDocument Format (ODF)
Wayland Shows the IBM/Red Hat Way of Doing Things
IBM is trying to 'kill' X
GitHub is Proprietary, Controlled by Microsoft, and GPL Violation Warehouse
"IRS tax filing software [will be] released to the people as free software" ... In general this is good news
Slopfarm Catastrophe
Seems like BetaNews (or BetaNoise) has just suffered a major data loss and restored the site from a week-old backup
Abuse Inside the Polish Patent Office (UPRP) - Part VIII: Illegal Working Conditions
How many people need to die for these people to get their massive salaries?
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, June 10, 2025
IRC logs for Tuesday, June 10, 2025
Links 10/06/2025: Apple Hype and Physical Attacks on Bloggers
Links for the day
Gemini Links 10/06/2025: Loon Lake, Farming, and Forth
Links for the day
If 'Microsoft v Techrights' is Dealt With by a 'Microsoft Court' (or a Court Outsourced to Microsoft)
More on that later
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, June 09, 2025
IRC logs for Monday, June 09, 2025
Gemini Protocol Turns Six in 10 Days From Now
If you haven't tried it yet, then give it a go today
Live as You Preach
technology is fast becoming dysphoric
Gemini Links 09/06/2025: Addition Addiction and Nitride
Links for the day
Links 09/06/2025: Science, Hardware Projects, and Democracy Receding
Links for the day
Computers Got Smaller, So GNU/Linux Got Bigger
Many people here recognise the lack of urgency (or need) to get expensive new laptops
BetaNews is a Plagiarism and LLM Slop Hub, the Chief Editor Isn't Addressing This Problem Anymore
SS Fagioli is basically a parasite leeching off or exploiting other people's work
Links 09/06/2025: Chaos in Los Angeles and Hurricane Season
Links for the day
GNU/Linux Grows at Windows' Expense and Microsoft Trolls Infest and Maliciously Target Articles About It
Microsoft is - and has long been - organised crime
They Say I'm Mr. Bombastic
They didn't take good lawyers
Links 09/06/2025: Windows TCO and Many Data Breaches
Links for the day
Abuse Inside the Polish Patent Office (UPRP) - Part VI: Political Stunts by Former President Edyta Demby-Siwek and the Connection to Profound Corruption at EUIPO
it's like a money-laundering operation where one politician rewards another at taxpayers' expense
Gemini Links 09/06/2025: Pipelines and Splitgate
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, June 08, 2025
IRC logs for Sunday, June 08, 2025