Bonum Certa Men Certa

Flashback 2003: Debian has always had a toxic culture

posted by Roy Schestowitz on Mar 18, 2024

Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock.

People are estimating that Debian has spent over $200,000 paying women to be volunteers through Outreachy. At the end of their Outreachy programs, they all disappear. Would it be better to use this money to get advice about fixing the culture? The payments to women are an admission that Debian culture is bad and women won't have anything to do with it voluntarily.

Despite everybody knowing the culture of the group is the root of all evil, they continue to look for scapegoats. If they can just punish one more person, everybody else will behave nicely, Debian will be "safe" and women will join.

Here is an email from the debian-private (widely leaked) gossip network giving an insight into the culture in 2003. It looks a lot like the culture today. In 20 years, despite all the forced resignations and expulsions nothing really changed.

Subject: Re: Fwd: Rejecting NM applicant Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 20:47:58 +0000 (UTC)
From: Martin Wheeler <msw@startext.demon.co.uk>
To: mark@dulug.duke.edu
CC: debian-private@lists.debian.org

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 mark@dulug.duke.edu wrote:
> > Dang. Maybe we should streamline our process. > > Double dang. If we can't find a way to get Norm in (who BTW offered to maintain > all the DocBook packages), then something about the application process needs to > be fixed.
. . .
> > I am rejecting the Debian New Maintainer Norman Walsh <ndw@nwalsh.com> on > > his own request. Norman, unfortunatly, does not have enough time to spend > > for the NM process
I heartily concur.
I too, have abandoned the process of attempting to become an NM. And, I suspect, for many of the same reasons. Having had to wait for over a year for any real response to my initial enthusiasm, I had already lost most of my interest in becoming a DD (for documentation only), and had only lukewarm reactions to the mails I eventually received. (Mainly upbraiding me with comments like: "you have to really, really want this, you know" -- at the same time making me wonder why the hell I ever thought I might want to join this group of narcissistic navel-gazers -- and generally attempting to make me feel like a fourth-class citizen because my interests lie only in lowly documentation, NOT in the highly-valued elite skills of programming/packaging.)
Overall, I was given a very strong impression that DDs regard themselves as being the 'l33test of the 'l33t; that in going through the NM process it is more important to be recognised as being a putative member of a highly exclusive undergraduate-style sorority / club than it is to have any technical expertise to offer to the group; and that unwarranted sobbery and attitudes of exclusivity of the group reign supreme. (Really. This attitude came over to me more strongly than any other -- which surprised me greatly, as I am personally acquainted with a few DDs, none of whom comes over to me in that way at all.)
Frankly though, I eventually lost interest. (Is it any wonder?) To the point where I couldn't even be bothered to reply any more to any of the mails I received. (Round about the P&P stage.) There was NO real or effective dialogue between myself and the group I thought I could offer something to; and in fact, very little real desire to offer anything any more, on my part. Is it any wonder then that in these circumstances once-enthusiastic folks just quietly drift away?
My last dealings with the NM process were when I went on an irc channel -- to be met instantly with a hostile: "what are you doing here? I thought we got rid of you two weeks ago."
Why on earth should I persist in trying to offer my skills to a group like that?
Genuinely puzzled,

Here is what the thread looks like. Women seem to have a nose for this type of thing. They feel really uncomfortable when their name appears in something like this so they don't even begin to get involved.

Norman Walsh, Debian, gossip

Other Recent Techrights' Posts

Just Because People on Top of the Microsoft Pyramid Made a Lot of Money Doesn't Mean Microsoft is Wealthy
The bigger they are the harder they fall
 
New Rumours of IBM Layoffs in 2025, IBM Consulting Still Struggles, Based on Management
"Hey hi" (AI) has been a common excuse for business failure
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, February 05, 2025
IRC logs for Wednesday, February 05, 2025
Links 05/02/2025: Kessler Syndrome and News Online
Links for the day
statCounter: Monaco Now 7% GNU/Linux ("Proper")
GNU/Linux, not counting Chromebooks, is on the rise
Many Parts of Google Lose Money
It's quite apparent that many parts of Google - even some that rely on ad revenue or push ads - aren't profiting
European Internet Forum (EIF) is Dominated by American Corporations and Microsoft Lobbyists, Staff Take the Lead
Should the officials over here or the European Parliament pay attention to these people?
IBM Red Hat on "era of cloud computing", pushing "hey hi" (AI) hype in Microsoft Azure
LLM slop might actually be more benign than Microsoft promotion
Links 05/02/2025: Connection without Connectivity and Unionised Grocery Workers
Links for the day
Gemini Links 05/02/2025: Learning, Madman Ruling a Mad Country, Back in Geminispace
Links for the day
statCounter Shows "WIntel" Chasing a Dying Market
Microsoft acts as if it's running out of money
Free Software Foundation, Inc. (FSF) Still Raising Money, Richard Stallman Contributes
total exceeding $430k
A Lot of Stuff About "Linux" in Google News is LLM Slop, Fake 'Articles'
It seems to be getting worse
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, February 04, 2025
IRC logs for Tuesday, February 04, 2025
'Official' Debian Sites That Sell Proprietary and Surveillance
"Azure API throttling strikes back"
statCounter: Only 1 in ~40 Web Users in Ireland Uses Microsoft Browser, One in Six Uses Windows
When/if Windows market share goes down, so will Edge
Links 04/02/2025: Social Control Media Bans and US Fighting Its Allies, Not Russia
Links for the day
Links 04/02/2025: Birth of a Calf, FOSDEM, and More
Links for the day
Anti-Linux FUD Sites cybersecuritynews.com and gbhackers.com Turn Out to be LLM Slop, Even Plagiarism That Spreads Lies
Beware false headlines and fake text from cybersecuritynews.com and gbhackers.com
BetaNews Began Removing LLM Slop About "Linux", But More of It Keeps Coming From Guardian Digital, Inc (at linuxsecurity.com)
the other Serial Slopper, Guardian Digital, Inc
Mollamby, Suicide Cluster, not trademark, the real reasons for Debian legal expenses, evidence
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Links 04/02/2025: Mass Layoffs at Salesforce, Economic Pressures, Trade Wars
Links for the day
The Latest Microsoft Layoffs Are a Wake-up Call: The Company is Running Low on Money
in most areas it is not even profitable
[Video] Richard Stallman Auctioning a GNU (Gnu) at Surathkal, India
clip is only a minute-long
Software Freedom Month at NITK Surathkal and Yesterday's Talk by Richard Stallman
the message being spread by the person who started it all
Richard Stallman Has Another Talk in India Tomorrow, at Least Fourth India Talk in Recent Days
In the past month he has given at least half a dozen talks
statCounter: GNU/Linux and ChromeOS Now Measured at 2.78% in Japan (It Used to be Less Than 0.5%)
really 'took off' half a decade ago
GNU/Linux Reaches All-Time High in the United States, Based on statCounter
Windows is the loser; GNU/Linux grows at its expense
LLM Hype (Chatbots Hyped and Wrongly Characterised as "Artificial Intelligence") Cause Net Inflation
Net as in Internet, not limited to the Web
It Looks Like BetaNews' Managing Editor Wayne Williams is Taking Over From Fagioli After Repeat Pattern of LLM Slop (State-of-the-Art Plagiarism) About "Linux"
The most plausible explanation is, Fagioli got caught or his conduct could no longer be ignored
statCounter Reckons Less Than 10% in Mexico Still Use Windows to Access to Web and GNU/Linux Surges to All-Time High (Plus, Microsoft's Latest Debt Crisis)
Looking at Mexico in isolation
From India to Italy: Richard Stallman's Next Talk is Next Week in Torino
Announced less than a day ago
Corporate Media is Intentionally Lying for Microsoft, There's Now a Hiring Freeze, No Replacements for Workers Laid Off in Two Mass Layoffs Last Month
Maybe the media - at least some of it - actually deserves doom. If it covers up for the powerful to muzzle and gaslight the oppressed, then what sort of media is that anyway?
Gemini Links 04/02/2025: Tolkien and New Job
Links for the day
Covering EPO Scandals in an Age of Mass Censorship (and Europe Being Afraid to Introspect, for It Might "Help Putin")
It was all along expected that "external enemies" would be invoked to suppress discussion about EPO crimes
Facebook Finally Admits That It Censored Linux and Banned People for Mentioning It; statCounter Shows Rapid Growth for GNU/Linux in Southeast Asia
So GAFAM is losing its power
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, February 03, 2025
IRC logs for Monday, February 03, 2025