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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 6th, 2008



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dsmith_anyone alive in here?Jun 06 04:28
schestowitzI'm here.Jun 06 04:31
schestowitzWas away for a long while though.Jun 06 04:31
ZiggyFishschestowitz: good afternoonJun 06 04:35
schestowitzdsmith: have you found out more about Lenovo?Jun 06 04:35
schestowitzWell, it's 4AM here. ;-)Jun 06 04:36
ZiggyFishschestowitz: wow.Jun 06 04:36
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworld.com/ac... "Correction: This story has been changed since it was first posted to say that Remix will be available for free download, although it is most appropriate for developers and prospective netbook vendors. Due to incorrect information provided to Computerworld, the story originally said Remix would not be available for a free download."Jun 06 04:40
ZiggyFishwhen do ComputerWorld give the correct information :PJun 06 04:41
ZiggyFish*doesJun 06 04:41
schestowitzEric Lai can be annoying sometimes.Jun 06 04:42
schestowitzZiggy the thing about the above quote is not the mistake. It's about Ubuntu sort of closing (this mobile derivative).Jun 06 04:52
schestowitzAnd just spotted from Mark S's own mouth: "So while I respect the people in the free software community who invest a lot of time in making compatible implementations of other people's technology, I don't think that's the real recipe for success for free software. We have to give people a reason to use our platform for itself, not because it's a cheap version of someone else's."Jun 06 04:52
dsmith_roy: my contact is away on vacation, next week I will ask himJun 06 04:55
schestowitztyJun 06 04:59
ZiggyFishschestowitz: i agree with mark though and is a good step in the right directionJun 06 05:01
schestowitzContext here: http://lwn.net/Subscribe... (re: the quote above, I was thinking also about Mono and the reason MarkS said there should be no Wine on Dell's Linux boxes)Jun 06 05:03
ZiggyFishschestowitz: I read that above story, yesterday, and thought it was strange, the Remix, wasn't going to be release for free download.Jun 06 05:04
ZiggyFishI agree with the statement before that too.Jun 06 05:06
ZiggyFishWith regard to GNOME and Microsoft, I'm not concerned. My view is that to win, you have to have your own vision. You have to have a very clear idea of what you can deliver that's unique. You can't go around sort of chasing someone else's coat tails.Jun 06 05:06
schestowitzI must wonder if they put some proprietary/NDA'd Intel stuff inside. No source, no binary. Mind you, Remix runs just fine on PCs. It's not  a  matter of impossibility.Jun 06 05:06
ZiggyFishAnd in fact, the real successes of free software have been the places where it has just blown away the alternatives. The Internet runs on free software, and not because it has copied anything from Microsoft. The proprietary software guys like to accuse free software of not innovating and not doing anything other than sort of walking down the same path that they've already walked, which is always easier. That's just not true,Jun 06 05:07
ZiggyFish but guys like the Mono Project are reinforcing that stereotype.Jun 06 05:07
schestowitzWell, the previous stereotype was "communism"Jun 06 05:08
ZiggyFishmark had a interview with Jim back in feb <http://linux-foundation.org/webl...Jun 06 05:09
ZiggyFishhe said some interesting stuff.Jun 06 05:09
schestowitzGiven the visibility of FOSS, it makes more sense to assume that blob factories will follow the footsteps of FOSS. In practice, it is often true.Jun 06 05:09
schestowitzIf only I could find that image that shows the "cycle of innovation" (it expired on the Web)Jun 06 05:09
schestowitz(I've only just realied that Google made Gadgets open source... well, Apache... Google doesn't like Free software).Jun 06 05:11
ZiggyFishschestowitz: that I don't agree with.Jun 06 05:11
schestowitzReactionary development exists too, but it goes both ways.Jun 06 05:12
ZiggyFishGoogle is where it is today because of it's close-nessJun 06 05:16
ZiggyFishbut I don't expect google to open up it's infer-structure. Google participates in Free software in a different way.Jun 06 05:17
*santhosh (i=ca36b033@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-df54415e36f40963) has joined #boycottnovellJun 06 05:20
schestowitzYes, they give back a lot. I still hope that Wikia schools them.Jun 06 05:20
santhoshhi schestowitz,Jun 06 05:21
schestowitzHey there!Jun 06 05:21
santhoshI read http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06... . One related topic on Patent on India: http://osindia.blogspot.com/2008/05/gh...Jun 06 05:22
santhoshI dont know whether you already seen that...Jun 06 05:22
schestowitzI've posted it like 12 times in USENET so far (adding this for context).Jun 06 05:22
schestowitzSame in the EU with Senator of 'Harmonisation'Jun 06 05:23
schestowitzHere is a pro-Microsoft article from India (regarding OOXML): http://technology.merinews.com/catFu...Jun 06 05:53
schestowitzIt's a new article with Microsoft's puppets quoted in it. Almost like a 'plug' in the mediaJun 06 05:54
dsmith_broadcom sucks... http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/05/...Jun 06 06:00
dsmith_I had to laugh see Microsoft having a /opensource page now..Jun 06 06:01
dsmith_that and they are supporters to sourceforgeJun 06 06:01
schestowitzIt's becoming a big issue. They want to grab and control all sides. They want the Trust.Jun 06 06:03
dsmith_I dont trust anyoneJun 06 06:03
schestowitzWell, trust as in anti-Trust.Jun 06 06:03
schestowitzIf they can't fight someone or exterminate it (they tried many times), they want to just devour the threat.Jun 06 06:04
dsmith_We have an issue at the office where were were just about to roll out citrix, in comes some IT guru and says that RDP and this-that is good enoughJun 06 06:04
dsmith_so the CFO ends up spending $50K on needless things, now our CTO quit and left us high and dryJun 06 06:05
dsmith_I despise MS ppl, I really doJun 06 06:05
dsmith_I was asked why I hated MS, and no our CEO can see why.Jun 06 06:05
schestowitzOpenSSH not good enough?Jun 06 06:05
schestowitzTheo could use 50k.Jun 06 06:05
dsmith_going back to citrixJun 06 06:05
dsmith_lolJun 06 06:05
dsmith_the thing is, our CFO and CEO have no idea on what they want. I am trying to work my way into the CIO position, give it time.Jun 06 06:07
ZiggyFishquite interestingJun 06 06:07
ZiggyFishEdward Screven: I think in fact Microsoft’s saber rattling about Linux patents {audio dropout} you know, is good news. Because what it means is they are struggling to find ways to demonstrate the value of Windows with respect to Linux. So they’ve resorted to fear mongering. And that’s exactly how we view it. And that’s exactly why we fully indemnify Oracle Unbreakable Linux customers. You know, we’re a big companyJun 06 06:07
ZiggyFishand we’re going to stand up for our Linux supported customers.Jun 06 06:07
dsmith_yea SSH nice, I use it here for connecting to remote machines that I want to remote updateJun 06 06:07
dsmith_I have yet to try backing up using that methodJun 06 06:08
schestowitzZiggy, URL?Jun 06 06:08
schestowitzrsync?Jun 06 06:08
dsmith_yes rsyncJun 06 06:08
schestowitzI do it every night.Jun 06 06:08
ZiggyFishhttp://linux-foundation.org/...Jun 06 06:09
schestowitzKeeps all my files synchronised across 'sites' + tar+gzip for backups (stack of them) on external hard-drives.Jun 06 06:09
dsmith_aye, I have a NAS here at homeJun 06 06:09
ZiggyFishti's fairly old though, for the pod cast, http://linux-foundation.org/weblogs/openvo...Jun 06 06:09
schestowitzYou know what, Ziggy? It won't be long before Zemlin interviews someone from Microsoft.Jun 06 06:10
schestowitzI bet you a buck.Jun 06 06:10
ZiggyFishMay 6, 2008Jun 06 06:10
dsmith_I use to have two at the office until the MS idiots said this is crap, we need to spend money on a super duper windows serverJun 06 06:10
dsmith_windows server - setup as a NASJun 06 06:10
ZiggyFishlol, why did you allow them in in the first placeJun 06 06:10
dsmith_I didn'tJun 06 06:11
schestowitz"I think in fact Microsoft’s saber rattling about Linux patents {audio dropout} you know, is good news." = "It's good to have a heart attack because it teaches you to live more healthily"Jun 06 06:11
ZiggyFishcould of lock the doorJun 06 06:11
ZiggyFish:PJun 06 06:11
dsmith_hahahJun 06 06:11
dsmith_believe me I tried within all my power to keep them outJun 06 06:11
dsmith_we had a nice samba serverJun 06 06:11
dsmith_they got rid of thatJun 06 06:11
schestowitzWindows server... what does that do? Infect the office?Jun 06 06:11
ZiggyFishschestowitz: no, crashJun 06 06:11
dsmith_hahah, they rebbot it once a weekJun 06 06:12
schestowitzEven the Yankee Group took the p**s out of WS08Jun 06 06:12
dsmith_the suse and gentoo samaba servers I ran never were rebootedJun 06 06:12
schestowitzIt's getting worse for WS as time goes by.. downtime-wiseJun 06 06:12
schestowitzTell them that Windows Server is the same codebase as Vista.Jun 06 06:12
ZiggyFishI heard there is a computer runnig unix for 20 years, and never has been rebooted :)Jun 06 06:12
dsmith_well, compnay I work for have not exp. enough painJun 06 06:12
schestowitzTell them they buy $3000 VistaJun 06 06:13
dsmith_same with using IE vs. firefoxJun 06 06:13
dsmith_3000 vista.......hahahhaJun 06 06:13
dsmith_using Fx for 2 years never a problemJun 06 06:13
schestowitz 06:13:26 up 52 days,  4:25,  6 users,  load average: 0.33, 0.77, 1.28Jun 06 06:13
dsmith_5 days after using IE, someone compalins about thier laptop is infectedJun 06 06:13
dsmith_mind you they did also remove ESET NOD32Jun 06 06:13
dsmith_oh well..Jun 06 06:14
ZiggyFishdsmith_: infected with Windows?Jun 06 06:14
dsmith_NO I'm notJun 06 06:14
dsmith_:PJun 06 06:14
dsmith_<---kubuntu userJun 06 06:14
schestowitzIE is not a Web browser.Jun 06 06:14
schestowitzIt's an intsallerJun 06 06:14
dsmith_"Its the Industry standard"...Jun 06 06:14
dsmith_ya rightJun 06 06:14
ZiggyFishdsmith_: can I ask what position are you in. can you make IT dissions?Jun 06 06:14
dsmith_I use to long agoJun 06 06:15
dsmith_6 months I sayJun 06 06:15
dsmith_now I just consult here and there and fix thingsJun 06 06:15
dsmith_while retaining my day job with same companyJun 06 06:15
ZiggyFishbecause, you could do some research and give them a good insight into why they need linuxJun 06 06:16
dsmith_our CFo did not like the fact I was going down the Linux roadJun 06 06:16
ZiggyFishdsmith_: did he say yJun 06 06:17
dsmith_I was so far as deploying kubuntu desktopsJun 06 06:17
dsmith_Linux is not a standard.. blah blah blahJun 06 06:17
dsmith_I know whats bestJun 06 06:17
dsmith_stuff like thatJun 06 06:17
dsmith_Like I said, he should'nt be making IT decisionsJun 06 06:17
schestowitzFear of the misunderstood typically. If 'foreign' software is in, they lose control.Jun 06 06:18
dsmith_yea, I fought damned hard to retain admin rights on my machineJun 06 06:18
ZiggyFishdsmith_: is that all. Linux is more of a standard (POSIX)Jun 06 06:18
dsmith_not in this person eyesJun 06 06:18
dsmith_when I was deploying open officeJun 06 06:18
schestowitzYou want to read this: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.T...Jun 06 06:18
dsmith_his qualm was, but ift can;t print envelopesJun 06 06:19
dsmith_so he said its crapJun 06 06:19
schestowitzFTA: ""The majority of Microsoft oriented corporate IT staff I've worked with have a sort of reverential fear of Linux. They like to talk about it in a respectful sort of way, but they are often afraid to actually use it. Deploying a Linux server without an outside support agreement is a very scary task to users who have felt safe for years in their codependent relationship with Microsoft."Jun 06 06:19
dsmith_we went from 2003 --> for no reason...sighJun 06 06:19
dsmith_roy, yep I agreeJun 06 06:20
dsmith_I had 4 linux serversJun 06 06:20
dsmith_:PJun 06 06:20
schestowitzTell them about Google.Jun 06 06:20
ZiggyFishschestowitz: I'm thinking about making a website. To help in that area (education about Linux), do you link that would be a good ideaJun 06 06:20
schestowitzExplain to them that a place managed by the mighty GNU ( ;-) ) is able to grow without worries and dependence. Jun 06 06:21
schestowitzYes, it's always valuable. There are too many Linux sites that are no longer active.Jun 06 06:22
schestowitzWhilst Microsoft grabs more control over the likes of Digg and Slashdot.Jun 06 06:22
dsmith_roy, all I will get is a blank stare. They are already having problems with wanting to do things with software but cannot. and I reiterated that *this* is why we should not have gone with propritary software ever.Jun 06 06:22
dsmith_I'm tired preachingJun 06 06:23
dsmith_time to move on with my own stuffJun 06 06:23
ZiggyFishshort of funds at the moment, hopefully, I can register the domain on monday (sunday your time)Jun 06 06:23
*dsmith_ patiently awaits for them whole mess to crashJun 06 06:23
dsmith_*chuckle*Jun 06 06:23
schestowitzHosting can be cheap. It's mainly a time constraint.Jun 06 06:23
schestowitzdsmith, they would blame something else. People are bad at being judgemental when it comes to own decision.Jun 06 06:24
dsmith_yep..Jun 06 06:24
schestowitzLook back at the remark about Ballmer threats as a \good' thing for LinuxJun 06 06:24
ZiggyFishI was thinking of going with godaddy, ($50/year), is that a good priceJun 06 06:24
dsmith_everyone is complainging about thier machines being slow... but thats what they get for running office 2007 and mcafeeJun 06 06:25
dsmith_I have a godaddy siteJun 06 06:25
schestowitzI don't like GoDaddy. If you start small, then my host (Catalyst2) is cheaper and probably better.Jun 06 06:25
dsmith_thats kinda what I paidJun 06 06:25
dsmith_hmmJun 06 06:25
schestowitzhttp://www.catalyst2.com/Jun 06 06:26
ZiggyFishschestowitz: what software (php, mysql versions?)Jun 06 06:26
dsmith_hmm $18Jun 06 06:27
dsmith_annualJun 06 06:27
dsmith_I want to learn drupal and joomlaJun 06 06:27
dsmith_just haven't bothered to sit down and play with itJun 06 06:27
schestowitzphp5+4, IIRC (based on filename extension). Can't recall which MySQL version.Jun 06 06:28
schestowitzIt's the support which makes Catalyst2 very good. Uptime is excellent too.Jun 06 06:28
ZiggyFish€£79.99 = ???(australian dollars)Jun 06 06:28
dsmith_poundsJun 06 06:29
schestowitzHas that changed?Jun 06 06:29
schestowitzWhen I started there it was just around 20, I think.Jun 06 06:29
schestowitzFor basic packages.Jun 06 06:29
dsmith_I do have a need of hosting a gantt chartJun 06 06:29
dsmith_without using project serverJun 06 06:29
dsmith_*sigh*Jun 06 06:29
ZiggyFishhow many pounds to a dollar?Jun 06 06:30
schestowitzUSD/AUD?Jun 06 06:31
ZiggyFishAUDJun 06 06:31
dsmith_hmmm just found a solution http://spreadsheets.google....Jun 06 06:31
dsmith_google seems to have a solution for thisJun 06 06:31
dsmith_sweetJun 06 06:32
dsmith_brbJun 06 06:32
schestowitzMaybe we should try to stick to topic...Jun 06 06:32
ZiggyFishlolJun 06 06:33
dsmith_agredJun 06 06:35
*ZiggyFish listens to the echoJun 06 06:41
schestowitzHeh. I didn't mean that in a bad way.Jun 06 06:43
schestowitzMicrosoft's assaults have been eerily quiet recently, but it's trying to befriend its competitors.Jun 06 06:44
dsmith_I know and I agree with your last commentJun 06 06:45
dsmith_beare the wolf that bears fruitJun 06 06:45
dsmith_*bewareJun 06 06:45
schestowitzOn the other hand, Microsoft had little news _in general_.Jun 06 06:46
schestowitzNot many new products. Almost nothing. Kicking the dead Zune (horse).Jun 06 06:46
schestowitzMaybe they bet on Novell et al bringing some revenue during existence as a patent holder (troll)Jun 06 06:47
schestowitzWhich aligns perfectly from last year's predication of someone whom I know from USENET.Jun 06 06:47
schestowitzMicrosoft's engineers are reportedly spending more times filing away (at the expense of  practical NNOVA~1)Jun 06 06:48
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ZiggyFishschestowitz: didn't Microsoft release Windows Search 4, http://www.itnews.com.au/News/NewsSt...Jun 06 07:16
ZiggyFishMicrosoft has released its Windows Search 4 to the web, updating its Vista, XP, Server 2003 and Windows Home Server offerings.Jun 06 07:16
schestowitzIt sounds like a low-key thing.Jun 06 07:18
schestowitzThey'll try to force people to use their wares. It's the only thing they 'know' (READ: have the nerve) how to do.Jun 06 07:18
schestowitzObservation: Paul Krill messes up again... ( http://feeds.pcworld.com/~r/pcwo... ) ... Giving credit to Microsoft (in a sense) for multi-core stuff where Microsoft merely plays catchup and doing the Silverblight [sic] boosting. He also did it last week.Jun 06 07:30
ZiggyFishschestowitz: Silverlight should be a swear worldJun 06 07:58
ZiggyFish*wordJun 06 07:58
schestowitzSomeone told me at the time that the choice of name (originally intended to be called Sparke when the word leaked around 2005) is intended to get ease, peace of mind. Silver. Light. I do try to associate it with negative things in BN.com (picture of washing powder labelled "barf", also a toilet seat).Jun 06 08:01
schestowitzHTML = open, light, silver, cross-platform, free; XAML = closed, dark, proprietary, Windows-based, binary, not secure.Jun 06 08:03
ZiggyFishI agree.Jun 06 08:10
schestowitzHTML needs a marketing team [sarcasm]Jun 06 08:11
schestowitzMind you, Microsoft employees are leaving comments in ZDNet to advertise Silverblight. I caught this.Jun 06 08:11
ZiggyFishmaybe HTML need the Microsoft marketing ;)Jun 06 08:12
ZiggyFishwouldn't suprise meJun 06 08:12
schestowitzWell, they have Wilson there already. Microsoft is seriously f*ing up HTML from the inside.Jun 06 08:12
schestowitzThat's why I fear their involvement with ODF.Jun 06 08:12
schestowitzIn about an hour I'll show you (in BN.com) what Patrick D and Alex Brown are up to.Jun 06 08:12
ZiggyFishI fear it to, so do a lot of people.Jun 06 08:12
ZiggyFishniceJun 06 08:13
schestowitzPJ and Groklaw watch what they do.Jun 06 08:13
schestowitzIt seems like Novell has just lost a chief figure.Jun 06 10:40
schestowitz"From 1988 to 1998, Arthur served in various sales, marketing and general management roles for Novell Inc. His last position was VP and GM of Novell's Internet Infrastructure Division, which was focused on Novell's directory services, security offerings and software platforms for Internet Service Providers. Arthur holds a BS from the University of California at Davis."Jun 06 10:40
schestowitzSource: http://www.businesswire.com/port...Jun 06 10:41
schestowitzOh, never mind. He left Novell some years ago.Jun 06 10:43
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PetoKraushello there.Jun 06 10:53
schestowitzHowdy.Jun 06 10:54
schestowitzYour translation of the article is in LXer. There's feedback from a fellow countryman as well.Jun 06 10:54
schestowitzLinuxToday linked to us yesterday, as well.Jun 06 10:54
PetoKrausgoodJun 06 10:55
PetoKraus:) i am getting famous xDJun 06 10:55
PetoKrauscan you throw me a link?Jun 06 10:55
PetoKrausi seen the comments on BNJun 06 10:55
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schestowitzWhat just happened? It's like you hit the missiles button. :-)Jun 06 10:57
PetoKrausif i consider all my...Jun 06 10:59
PetoKrausfree software affiliation as a product ofJun 06 10:59
PetoKrausfailed hard drive...Jun 06 10:59
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schestowitzIt's like 3 people left at the same time (or got disconnected)Jun 06 11:00
PetoKrausahaJun 06 11:00
PetoKrausnet splitJun 06 11:00
PetoKrausthat's when parts of network get out of sync.Jun 06 11:01
schestowitzOh, I see. I'm new to IRC. Had a ~12-year recess.Jun 06 11:01
schestowitzJust spotted a funny contradictory message in a new article: http://searchenterpriselinux.techtar... : 'Novell's SUSE Linux Enterprise is "light years ahead" of its competitors, Nickle added. "They all should take their hats off to Novell for improving the Linux kernel and giving the results back to the community."'.Jun 06 11:02
schestowitzSee the contradiction?Jun 06 11:03
PetoKrauswellJun 06 11:04
PetoKrausthe light years ahead seems weirdJun 06 11:05
PetoKrausand i didn't know they did some extensive work on the kernel...Jun 06 11:05
schestowitzWell, but if they give it back, how can they be "light years ahead"?Jun 06 11:07
PetoKrausthat;s true.Jun 06 11:08
schestowitzEither the guy quoted or Novell cannot understand the GPL. Novell knows the rules, but it uses the Microsoft deal to change them.Jun 06 11:10
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PetoKrausnovell was one of the nails in the coffin of my Computing Science studiesJun 06 11:13
PetoKrauswell, one of the things which persuaded me to not switch from Chemistry to CSJun 06 11:14
ZiggyFishnice, are you studying Software devel?Jun 06 11:14
PetoKraus(another one was CISCO VPN secured wifi access)Jun 06 11:14
PetoKrausZiggyFish: no, Chemistry with Forensic Studies.Jun 06 11:14
ZiggyFishohJun 06 11:14
PetoKrauspeople are generally stupid, and chances are, that you'll meet less people in Chem lab, than in software developmentJun 06 11:15
schestowitzThe s/w industry changes fast. I told my bother not to go there. I told him to go for h/w..Jun 06 11:15
ZiggyFishlol, trust me there are more stupid people in the software development industry, then anyother industryJun 06 11:16
schestowitzHardware can hardly be made a commodity like software. Watch how low the price of PCs got. Well, it can never be $0. Services are not programming, but the two are related.Jun 06 11:16
PetoKrauswhat is needed are new ideas. I don't have any yet. And i don't need to be computing scientist to invent something computing-related...Jun 06 11:17
PetoKrausand, ZiggyFish, I KNOW :)Jun 06 11:17
PetoKrausif i take my CS class as a sample.... well, the vision is dark.Jun 06 11:17
ZiggyFishPetoKraus: put it this way, at least your boss know what he wants. I've had some contracts, where even the boss, could work out what he wanted (and of all things he insisted on using sharepoint)Jun 06 11:19
ZiggyFish*couldn't work out *Jun 06 11:19
PetoKrausyJun 06 11:19
ZiggyFishPetoKraus: don't know. The problem is usually trying to get the same vision as the boss. The amount of question, you have to ask (simple because they don't think of all of the idea)Jun 06 11:21
schestowitzWhat you call "ideas" the likes of Microsoft and Novell call "solutions" or "innovation", but unless it's scientific computing or hardware design (physics), what can you do?Jun 06 11:21
schestowitzThere are productivity and automation tricks, sure...Jun 06 11:21
ZiggyFishschestowitz: I say tomarto you say tomatoJun 06 11:22
schestowitztomarto fools CIOs ;-)Jun 06 11:24
schestowitzWatch this comment about IBM's rebranded old OOo:Jun 06 11:25
schestowitz"I just downloaded Symphony. I was thinking it would be an "improved" OpenOffice with some tunning from IBM.Jun 06 11:25
schestowitzAll the opposite, I was presented with a pre-alfa version of something far away of beeing useful. It's so buggy that remind me of version 0.01 of Abiword or Gnumeric.Jun 06 11:25
schestowitzI don't known what obscure intentions IBM keeps in mind by it looks to me the final purpose is not other than undermine the reputation of ODF and OpenOffice an Sun."Jun 06 11:25
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3...Jun 06 11:25
ZiggyFishI like the spelling he has. pre-alfa (with spelling like that, can he be trusted)Jun 06 11:27
schestowitzYes, I know the poster. He is credible.Jun 06 11:28
schestowitzIBM and Microsoft are similar. They are oversized companies that moved overseas (or use Visas) to raise profits and they are likely to cling onto patents to stay relevant.Jun 06 11:28
ZiggyFishschestowitz: I don't really agree with that, IBM is a lot (and I mean a lot) better than what Microsoft is. I get IBMs RSS feeds. And they have a lot of interesting stuff. and the articles they have show that they know a lot about Linux(both it's pitfalls, and it's advantages), Also they contribute to open source. whereas Microsoft doesn't do any of those things.Jun 06 11:31
ZiggyFishAs for outsourcing, a lot of companies do do this. a lot of banks do this(which is more worrying than software companies)Jun 06 11:32
schestowitzQuabec has just 'pulled a BECTA' ( http://www.groklaw.net/newsitems.php ): "By order of Microsoft, Québec government refuses info on contracts... A few weeks ago, we filed several access to information requests concerning 'umbrella contracts' the Québec government had granted to IBM, Novell and Microsoft." Ha!Jun 06 11:34
ZiggyFishlolJun 06 11:34
schestowitzYes, IBM is luckily not fighting against FOSS. Same with Oracle, to a degree. Oracle will be better when Ellison finally retires (he has two people fighting for inheritance... those who report to him).But... maybe better the devil whom we know.Jun 06 11:35
schestowitzGates and Ballmer's fights are coming to light now as well.Jun 06 11:35
schestowitzWSJ article exposed this and other sites like CNET are biting.Jun 06 11:36
ZiggyFishboth IBM and Oracle are embracing FOSS.Jun 06 11:37
ZiggyFishwhen will computerworld wake up to these events?Jun 06 11:38
schestowitzNot FOSS, Linux.Jun 06 11:38
ZiggyFishI read ComputerWorld, when I want to read a Microsoft biased article on the subject.Jun 06 11:40
schestowitzFollow the money. But SJVN is writing for them now (a blog).Jun 06 11:41
schestowitzHe also told me that he writes for an IEEE journal.Jun 06 11:41
ZiggyFishI little off topic, but do you watch sport?Jun 06 11:43
schestowitzNot anymore. Hardly.Jun 06 11:45
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ZiggyFishoh, I watch a lot of sport over the weekend (NRL(National Rugby League), union, AFL(Australian football league), Soccer)Jun 06 11:47
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schestowitzNowadays, I'd rather be /part/ of the activity, not just watch it. Television grew a generation of sportsmanship on a couch. I did watch a lot of sports when I was a big younger.Jun 06 11:49
ZiggyFishlolJun 06 11:50
schestowitz"bit younger" (typo)Jun 06 11:50
ZiggyFishohJun 06 11:50
ZiggyFishschestowitz: I would like to get more involved in the community, just don't know how. That's why I'm creating a linux help websiteJun 06 11:54
ZiggyFishAlhough lately, I've been helping out in the ##linux roomJun 06 11:57
schestowitzHOWTOs are useful when they are unique and detailed. I'm not sure what's most valuable; I personally concentrate on something I've studied for a while, esp. ways in which Microsoft sabotages FOSS from the iinside and out. As time goes by, I accumulate more knowledge, type it down and if the sharing interests some viewers, that's excellent.Jun 06 11:57
ZiggyFishschestowitz: nice to here. I've done a lot of research in to Microsoft (in fact I have bill gates book "the road ahead"), and why they are a "success", and what they have done over the years.Jun 06 12:00
schestowitzBill Gates will tell you /his/ version of the story.. It's like reading Mein Kampf to learn about WWII (pardon the Godwin approch).Jun 06 12:01
ZiggyFishanyway I'm off for the nightJun 06 12:02
ZiggyFishsee yaJun 06 12:02
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taq'morningJun 06 13:59
schestowitzHi there!Jun 06 14:01
taqdidn't know about the IRC channelJun 06 14:03
taqI'd like to contribute more on the website, but the last monts are really busy hereJun 06 14:03
schestowitzYou used to comment, right?Jun 06 14:04
schestowitzYou also informed me of stuff via E-mail.Jun 06 14:04
taqyepJun 06 14:05
taqI've talking about the mono dangers for years here on BrazilJun 06 14:05
taqsomething that some years ago made some people a little nervous :-)Jun 06 14:05
schestowitzDoes Mono mean monkey also in Portuguese? :-)Jun 06 14:05
taqnops, here is the same English meaningJun 06 14:06
schestowitzIt's a name that doesn't inspire confidence. Monkeys /mimic/. Just like Moonlight as a "lead pony"  for Silverlight.Jun 06 14:07
taqbtw, thanks God that there is nothing relevant about moonlight on the first yearJun 06 14:08
taqI think that it will sinkJun 06 14:08
schestowitzO'Reilly thinks so too... or at least showing some figures. Microsoft will carry on faking adoption and be slapped for it.Jun 06 14:09
schestowitzGoing by the English meaning of mono, all we have is an infectious disease, so hopefully it won't be passed outside Novell.Jun 06 14:09
taqI think microsoft as we know it (thinking about their power) is coming to an endJun 06 14:10
taqthe Yahoo! thing show such kind of thingJun 06 14:10
taqand now Icahn is doing the exactly thing that ballmer said he would do as an "aggressive option"Jun 06 14:11
taqbut he didn't say that *he* would do it :-)Jun 06 14:11
schestowitzYes.Jun 06 14:12
schestowitzI think Icahn is their proxy battle, but they try to dissociate themselves from it for PR reasons.Jun 06 14:13
jbhthe mono devs seem to be pretty incompetantJun 06 14:16
taqIcahn is the new SCO.Jun 06 14:16
jbhit's taken them a year and still no moonlight 1.0 release ;)Jun 06 14:16
taqjbh: technically, I don't have any issues with mono. But on the dirty side, I have a lot. As a developer, I can't understand why with such good open and *free (libre)* options people insist on the microsoft things.Jun 06 14:17
taqBrb, coffee time here.Jun 06 14:17
schestowitzDevelopers who come from .NET want Mono, but what can you do...?Jun 06 14:18
jbhI was just reading about vala, sounds like it might be a great way to get people off of monoJun 06 14:19
jbhbut I'm a bit concerned about it using identical syntax to C#Jun 06 14:19
jbhmight be an avenue for MS attacksJun 06 14:19
jbhschestowitz: point them at a C book and tell them to learn a real language?Jun 06 14:20
jbh;)Jun 06 14:20
schestowitzThat's just the problem with swpatents. Short of copycat/copyrights there's this 'similarity' thing. Like Microsoft rips off Java, then threatens.Jun 06 14:21
jbh.NET developers are like VB developers: stupidJun 06 14:21
jbhand incompetentJun 06 14:21
jbhyeaJun 06 14:21
schestowitzNot quite.Jun 06 14:22
schestowitzA P/L is just a tool. Even a genius uses a screwdriver sometimes.Jun 06 14:22
schestowitzThe problem is a technical and legal one; nothing to do with intelligence at all.Jun 06 14:23
jbh*shrug*Jun 06 14:24
schestowitzSome schools are sadly redirecting students to ASP and .NET. That's quite a sin.Jun 06 14:25
taqbackJun 06 14:25
jbhI get the feeling most .NET devs use .NET because they can't wrap their heads around freeing unused memoryJun 06 14:25
jbhand/or freeing memory when they shouldn'tJun 06 14:25
jbhand so take the easy way out rather than learnJun 06 14:26
taqschestowitz: the problem for me is the new developers and some that already are using free langs and come to mono/.netJun 06 14:26
schestowitzYes.Jun 06 14:26
schestowitzThat's the issue.Jun 06 14:26
taqand web app era may sole thisJun 06 14:26
schestowitzSee home page of GTKJun 06 14:26
taqif it does not use silverlight, of course :-)Jun 06 14:26
taqa good thing is that a lot of "alpha geeks" are moving away from microsoftJun 06 14:27
schestowitzThat's also the difference between dotgnu and mono.Jun 06 14:27
taqI'm involved with Ruby and Rails (I'm the author of the first Brazilian book about Ruby) and people if does not use GNU/Linux, use MacsJun 06 14:27
schestowitzLet me find something I have in mind (a page that cites us):Jun 06 14:27
schestowitzhttp://thewolftipi.blogspot.c...Jun 06 14:28
taqwell, we'll have to wait and see what happens, things can go their way by the people but not for the companiesJun 06 14:32
taqsee a company making all sort of dirty deeds and keep quiet is not a good thing, that's why we need to keep talking about this and about open/free stuffJun 06 14:33
schestowitzWhy don't other sites too? That's what's worrisome.Jun 06 14:35
schestowitzNovell's suits are still gaming people's mind (more on that in BN.com shortly)Jun 06 14:36
taqwell, have to go now, but now that I know that there's this channel I'll try to come back often :-)Jun 06 14:46
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schestowitzIt has been very valuable  for discussion and quick discovery of news. The IRC channel was an idea of a readerJun 06 14:47
jbhZI got to head off for class in a minute myselfJun 06 14:47
schestowitznb, I'm always connected.Jun 06 14:48
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Eruaranhi royJun 06 16:41
EruaranGot a couple of news items if you dont have them alreadyJun 06 16:41
schestowitzCool, go aheadJun 06 16:42
EruaranDell Mini Inspiron: http://gizmodo.com/393815/...Jun 06 16:42
EruaranAnd...Jun 06 16:42
EruaranMandriva rejects Microsoft patent pact: http://osacyber.wordpress.com/2007/0...Jun 06 16:42
schestowitz*looking*Jun 06 16:44
schestowitzPeople still wonder if that Dell laptop will run Ubuntu Linux (that's some people's guess).Jun 06 16:48
Eruaranseems like a resonable guessJun 06 16:50
schestowitzI'm not sure. I think they'll have an XP and Linux option. Then it boils down to pricing and specs.Jun 06 16:53
EruaranI think they'll offer the choice of ubuntu netbook remix or XPJun 06 16:55
schestowitzHopefully no SUSE (they already do this in China).Jun 06 16:59
EruaranDell will be looking for a marketing edge and ubuntu has a big following, also staying with ubuntu gives them a bridge to their ubuntu desktops where customers might take the step to ubuntu on a dell desktop as wellJun 06 16:59
EruaranI don't think they'll go Suse, they'll want to differentiate themselves from HPJun 06 17:00
EruaranAt least if I was Michael Dell, thats what I'd do :PJun 06 17:01
schestowitzHe uses UbuntuJun 06 17:01
schestowitzOn his laptopJun 06 17:01
EruaranGood news about MandrivaJun 06 17:03
schestowitzWell... what do you know about Manbo?Jun 06 17:06
EruaranManbo ?Jun 06 17:07
EruaranDell is doing notebooks pre-loaded with Mandriva in FranceJun 06 17:09
EruaranManbo labs ?Jun 06 17:11
schestowitzYes, it's a Turbolinux-Mandriva collaborationJun 06 17:13
EruaranI don't know much about itJun 06 17:13
Eruaranjust reading about it nowJun 06 17:13
schestowitzI wrote about it at the time, Groklaw did as well, the FSF didn't know what to make of it (I asked) and Mandriva's CEO denied anything was to be impliedJun 06 17:13
EruaranIf there ever was, I think that changed after the incident in AfricaJun 06 17:17
EruaranIn NigeriaJun 06 17:18
schestowitzHow so? I know the incident well and I bring it up occasionally.Jun 06 17:22
EruaranI figure that if Mandriva had ever considered getting cozy with Microsoft, then Microsoft's behaviour in Nigeria might have changed their mindsJun 06 17:24
Eruaranjust speculatingJun 06 17:27
schestowitzYes, I thought so too. What Microsoft did in Nigeria is very typical, but it got caught with its pants down and then tried to call bribery "marketing help" (typical too). What's important is the attitude of Mandriva's CEO. Mark Shuttleworth, on the other hand, chats with Microsoft at some capacity.Jun 06 17:29
EruaranI have a feeling that Mark Shuttleworths chats with folks from Microsoft may have a 'know thine enemy' aspect to them.Jun 06 17:30
EruaranBut then again, antagonistic behaviour is not his style, I wouldn't really expect to hear any ascerbic remarks from Mark Shuttleworth about Microsoft or any other corporation.Jun 06 17:32
schestowitzIt's nothing to worry about. It's not like Microsoft tries to trap him. He just wants to resolve issues around codecs.Jun 06 17:32
schestowitzOh, he can confront. He attacked Microsoft's deals, accusing them of racketeering and all...Jun 06 17:33
EruaranohJun 06 17:33
schestowitzThe apologetic type is actually Red Hat's new CEO, who is too polite IMHO.Jun 06 17:34
EruaranThey both rejected Microsofts patent deals, and thats what counts.Jun 06 17:35
schestowitzWell, the former CEO did. Same with the current one, but I'm not sure he was approached.Jun 06 17:37
EruaranMicrosoft's deals are a protection racket. This sort of behaviour should be prosecuted in court and viewed in exactly the same way as any other protection racket.Jun 06 17:40
EruaranHasn't Red Hat hired a legal team specifically for IP issues under the current CEO ?Jun 06 17:45
schestowitzYes, at least 2 people.Jun 06 17:45
schestowitzAs for Microsoft obeying low, well... whose law? http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Govern...Jun 06 17:46
schestowitzCorrupt systems permit for corrupt and aggressive businesses to thrive.Jun 06 17:46
EruaranyesJun 06 17:47
schestowitzSome of these firms ought to move overseas.Jun 06 17:52
schestowitzAway from the system that fails to regulate itself. Just MHO.Jun 06 17:53
EruaranyesJun 06 17:55
EruaranIts late here, gtgJun 06 17:57
Eruaran"we don’t believe it is necessary for us to get protection from Microsoft to do our job or to pay protection money to anyone" - François Bancilhon (CEO, Mandriva)Jun 06 18:03
EruaranbblJun 06 18:03
schestowitzI din't think he likes Ballmer. Does /anyone/?Jun 06 18:05
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schestowitzIWill be back in a few hours...Jun 06 19:40
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zoobabhiJun 06 19:58
PetoKrausI've got a serious question. Why is the leading man of ODF SUCH A FANNY?Jun 06 20:06
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PetoKrausgn guysJun 06 22:44
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