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| schestowitz | tessier, I saw that article earlier. Thanks. I posted it along with the latest links. | Jun 26 06:05 |
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| cozub | morgen | Jun 26 08:16 |
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| schestowitz | Howdy, cozub. | Jun 26 08:17 |
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| blackrabbit | hi cozub schestowitz | Jun 26 08:18 |
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| schestowitz | Good news for Linux today. I'll post links later, but... RHT's results are a good start for the morning. | Jun 26 08:18 |
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| tessier | schestowitz: Morning? You are just waking up? You live in Australia or something? | Jun 26 08:24 |
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| cozub | UK, afaik | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| blackrabbit | hi tessier | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| schestowitz | I've been waking up around 5AM recently. It's quite bright outside at that time. | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| blackrabbit | I didn't see you here yesterday, nice to meet you tessier | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| blackrabbit | I didn't see you here either cozub or did I? | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| tessier | blackrabbit: I've been here for a week or two. Nice to meet you too. | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| cozub | well, I'm mostly idling around and just reading stuff when I have the time | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| blackrabbit | :D | Jun 26 08:26 |
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| cozub | I'm not really keeping up | Jun 26 08:27 |
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| cozub | with the happenings here or @ BN | Jun 26 08:27 |
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| blackrabbit | cozub, if I have not spoken to you, nice to meet you :D | Jun 26 08:27 |
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| cozub | nj, nice to meet you too :) | Jun 26 08:27 |
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| blackrabbit | tessier, I suggested the creation of this channel via tor to schestowitz's excellent site, to my surprise, he created it! | Jun 26 08:27 |
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| blackrabbit | tessier, I've been following schestowitz's efforts online for a long time now, he really is a hero | Jun 26 08:28 |
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| tessier | Yeah, I've been following him for a few years too. | Jun 26 08:28 |
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| blackrabbit | tessier, unlike a lot of active websites, schestowitz actually reads user comments and appreciates them! | Jun 26 08:28 |
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| tessier | Mostly via c.o.l.a. | Jun 26 08:29 |
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| blackrabbit | tessier, he is great, isn't he? | Jun 26 08:29 |
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| schestowitz | Thanjks, blackrabbit. | Jun 26 08:29 |
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| tessier | yep | Jun 26 08:29 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, thank you :D | Jun 26 08:29 |
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| blackrabbit | tessier, oh, another newsgroup user? | Jun 26 08:29 |
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| blackrabbit | how do you filter all of the newsgroup spam? | Jun 26 08:30 |
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| cozub | does the l and a in cola stand for linux advocacy? :) | Jun 26 08:30 |
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| cozub | (pardon my ignorance) | Jun 26 08:30 |
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| schestowitz | cozub, yes, it's comp.os.linux.advocacy | Jun 26 08:35 |
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| schestowitz | I only found out about it in 2005. Prior to this I was in technical newsgroups, including the SUSE one. | Jun 26 08:35 |
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| cozub | thx. I heard of that group... but it's been some time since I stopped reading news; maybe I can give it another try | Jun 26 08:37 |
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| schestowitz | You would probably need filters. There are abusive trolls there. Speaking of abuse, I've just cleaned up BN spam. GNAA is still spamming us (N and F words all over the place, as usual). It's not even comments. They flood the Web (inc. Slashdot) with automated self-promotion. It's gross to read. | Jun 26 08:41 |
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| blackrabbit | schestowitz, I've tried filters but how do you stop them from filtering good information? | Jun 26 08:45 |
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| tessier | blackrabbit: Filter by author | Jun 26 08:45 |
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| tessier | The trolls never post good information | Jun 26 08:46 |
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| blackrabbit | thanks tessier I always filtered by content and it blocked a lot of good posts | Jun 26 08:48 |
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| tessier | You can probably reliably filter on swear words and racial words etc | Jun 26 08:49 |
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| schestowitz | Not all the trolls curse. | Jun 26 08:52 |
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| schestowitz | OpenSUSE's fans seem to be in a tizzy. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0... | Jun 26 14:00 |
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| schestowitz | wb, moparx | Jun 26 15:20 |
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| schestowitz | Eruaran, , seen this yet? http://practical-tech.com/bus... | Jun 26 15:32 |
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| Eruaran | hi roy | Jun 26 15:51 |
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| Eruaran | I just sat down | Jun 26 15:51 |
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| schestowitz | Not the first rant from him (first it was about desktop icons). :-( | Jun 26 15:52 |
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| Eruaran | everybody knows 4.04 isn't the stable release | Jun 26 15:52 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I was surprised by this too. The 4.1 branch (testing) ought to be better. The last report from PolishLinux was OK. | Jun 26 15:54 |
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| Eruaran | Yes, the word I'm hearing is that 4.1 is set to be a big improvement and the release the KDE devs are comfortable with as the first stable release thats ready for general use. | Jun 26 15:56 |
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| Eruaran | The fact that there has not been a stable release yet seems to evade some of these people who write reviews. Nobody said it was stable. | Jun 26 15:56 |
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| schestowitz | Discussion here (just left a comment myself): http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/28092 | Jun 26 15:59 |
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| schestowitz | No, 4.2 might be needed for an 3.5-quality release. 4.2 _at the least_. Crashes/error versus user experience is the key At the end (very edn), it's important to get the latter right. | Jun 26 16:00 |
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| Eruaran | This guys review is just plain stupid | Jun 26 16:01 |
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| Eruaran | He's taking good features that KDE4 has and slagging off about it without good reason | Jun 26 16:01 |
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| schestowitz | My comment was short and I responded because they shoot the messenger, who is a bit of a friend. I wrote: "Trust Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols: I do trust the man, but watch what he's reviewing (old version). He needs to be patient. I'm sure it'll turn around." | Jun 26 16:01 |
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| Eruaran | "the ‘icons’ have small controls so you can work with the icon itself. Ah… why? This isn’t a Mac, I have a right mouse button key and I’m not afraid to click it." | Jun 26 16:01 |
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| schestowitz | You reckon he trolls? I never saw him doing that. Honest. | Jun 26 16:02 |
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| Eruaran | This guy is just a dick | Jun 26 16:02 |
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| Eruaran | yes | Jun 26 16:02 |
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| Eruaran | definately | Jun 26 16:02 |
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| schestowitz | The LinuxDevices people sometimes trolled. | Jun 26 16:02 |
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| Eruaran | I have not met a single person who has tried KDE 4 who didn't like the little controls that light up on icons when you mouse over them | Jun 26 16:02 |
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| schestowitz | I'll need to read it carefully. I read only the beginning. | Jun 26 16:02 |
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| Eruaran | My mum loves it because it makes sense to her (she doesn't understand right clicking and holding down shift or ctrl) | Jun 26 16:03 |
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| Eruaran | My boss loves it, he just says, "thats hot" | Jun 26 16:03 |
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| Eruaran | And this guy is demonstrating he knows nothing about usability | Jun 26 16:04 |
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| schestowitz | Cool. By the way, is it true that KDE 3.5 isn't on the OSUSE CD? | Jun 26 16:04 |
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| Eruaran | dunno | Jun 26 16:04 |
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| Eruaran | I don't pay much attention to OSuse | Jun 26 16:04 |
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| Eruaran | I think its highly overrated | Jun 26 16:04 |
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| schestowitz | Susan is hyping it up (Tux Machines) | Jun 26 16:05 |
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| Eruaran | People always hype OSuse up... and yet I've never been overly impressed when I've tried it for myself | Jun 26 16:05 |
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| Eruaran | I don't get it | Jun 26 16:05 |
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| Eruaran | Ubuntu has much better hardware support | Jun 26 16:06 |
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| Eruaran | "My smallest PC displays are 20.1” these days. There was never enough room on them for KDE 4" - this is just rubbish | Jun 26 16:07 |
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| schestowitz | Ladislav too... | Jun 26 16:07 |
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| Eruaran | We have KDE 4.1 beta1 on a demo system at work with a 22" widescreen (not much bigger) and its fantastic | Jun 26 16:08 |
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| schestowitz | I'm not sure about hardware support. I've tried both on several computers and both worked quite perfectly without any yinkering. | Jun 26 16:08 |
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| schestowitz | *tinkering. | Jun 26 16:08 |
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| Eruaran | OSuse doesn't have bad hardware support | Jun 26 16:08 |
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| Eruaran | Just not as good as Ubuntu | Jun 26 16:09 |
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| schestowitz | Novell has the advantage which is those 'marketing people they hire'. New guy BTW: | Jun 26 16:09 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=480 | Jun 26 16:09 |
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| schestowitz | I call them Novell boosters because their role (paid for) is to change perception. That's all. It comes from the term Microsoft booster. Microsoft is a marketing company. Same with Apple. | Jun 26 16:10 |
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| Eruaran | And why are fuddsters still reviewing KDE 4.04 when 4.1 beta2 is out ? | Jun 26 16:10 |
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| schestowitz | OpenSUSE. That's why. | Jun 26 16:11 |
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| schestowitz | I can't convince SJVN to skip or ignore the sellouts. | Jun 26 16:11 |
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| Eruaran | I would blame OpenSuse for that | Jun 26 16:12 |
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| schestowitz | He knows people from there. In fact, eWeek gave Xandros and Linspire a lot of publicity; without SJVN, they /still/ do. | Jun 26 16:12 |
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| Eruaran | If they're pushing it as if its ready for prime time, thats their fault. | Jun 26 16:12 |
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| schestowitz | OpenSUSE also comes with FF beta, IIRC. | Jun 26 16:12 |
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| schestowitz | I don't want to draw attention to SJVN's alleged 'trolling', so I won't do a post blaming OpenSUSE.. | Jun 26 16:13 |
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| Eruaran | I think these guys just don't understand KDE's development process | Jun 26 16:13 |
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| schestowitz | I think KDE could use marketing muscle. They should have never released 4.0 as though it's a product but more as a developer's 'SDK' | Jun 26 16:14 |
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| Eruaran | Aaron went to great lengths to explain it on his blog | Jun 26 16:15 |
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| schestowitz | Distros that try to earn 'cutting-edge' merit (F9 too) are giving software that's not necessarily good for all users just yet. | Jun 26 16:15 |
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| Eruaran | So did a couple of the other guys | Jun 26 16:15 |
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| schestowitz | Eruaran, blogs are not seen as widely. | Jun 26 16:15 |
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| schestowitz | I wrote about it too. | Jun 26 16:15 |
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| schestowitz | I had 3.9 running alongside 3.5 at one stage. Actually, it's still installed. | Jun 26 16:16 |
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| Eruaran | well even less widely now that Aarons has gone private | Jun 26 16:16 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Jun 26 16:16 |
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| schestowitz | Accident, no? | Jun 26 16:16 |
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| Eruaran | I noticed in the last couple of weeks that he lost patience with people | Jun 26 16:17 |
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| Eruaran | I think he's just fed up with all the crap being thrown at him | Jun 26 16:17 |
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| schestowitz | Hans for example. Also SJVN... yes, they take it out on him.. Beranger went through the trouble of putting "Seigo" in cartoons. | Jun 26 16:18 |
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| Eruaran | I know myself that people just do not listen | Jun 26 16:18 |
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| Eruaran | And of course Microsoft would look at all this and be quite happy watching the community bleed itself | Jun 26 16:19 |
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| schestowitz | That's what I was going to approach. | Jun 26 16:20 |
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| schestowitz | A friend of mine who is a professor has watch the BSDs and Linux for decades. He reckons Microsoft games it in subtle ways too. | Jun 26 16:21 |
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| schestowitz | *watched | Jun 26 16:21 |
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| schestowitz | He was also fascinated when I showed him this leak: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf (Microsoft explains/is taught, among many things, that Microsoft should increase friction among rivals) | Jun 26 16:22 |
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| Eruaran | "KDE 4.1. Beta 2 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users" | Jun 26 16:34 |
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| schestowitz | From KDE's site? | Jun 26 16:35 |
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| Eruaran | yes | Jun 26 16:35 |
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| Eruaran | Lets see how many people who review it actually report it that way though... | Jun 26 16:36 |
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| schestowitz | Remember the kernel hacker's petition? Just found this: http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819 "nvidia.ko: The NVidia driver is the single component in a KDE4 / Free Operating system stack causing us most of the hard-to-solve problems. In other words, nvidia.ko has grave technical shortcomings." | Jun 26 16:36 |
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| Eruaran | yes | Jun 26 16:36 |
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| Eruaran | And Aaron has taken a firm stand on that sort of thing | Jun 26 16:37 |
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| schestowitz | Ubuntu devs used to complain (hopping mad) at AMD for making eye candy by default impossible. | Jun 26 16:37 |
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| Eruaran | The KDE devs are not going to hack about trying to fix something that is Nvidia's fault | Jun 26 16:37 |
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| schestowitz | I know this because I was there approaching them along with others like Phoronix and those who filed bug reports. | Jun 26 16:38 |
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| schestowitz | Looking at post AMD's big announcement archives, I spouted out some serious s* about them, calling people never to touch their products (I have an ATI card on this machines). I was not alone. | Jun 26 16:39 |
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| schestowitz | hi, kentma! | Jun 26 16:39 |
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| kentma | hi schestowitz! | Jun 26 16:39 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, PetoKraus. | Jun 26 16:47 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: firefox final was pushed out with an online update within a few hours from release. | Jun 26 16:56 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: Also 3.5 is on the DVD, there is not a livecd installer for it. | Jun 26 16:57 |
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| schestowitz | Thanks, that's what I suspected (about Firefox). As for KDE 3.5, I though the installer was universal and had 3 options (DEs). | Jun 26 16:59 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: On the DVD yes. The livecds just dump the image onto disk like ubuntu. | Jun 26 17:09 |
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| schestowitz | Hmmm... I never had a DVD drive (let alone a CD burner). Don't ask. :-) | Jun 26 17:10 |
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| benJIman | Netinstall or whatever would be the same as dvd. | Jun 26 17:11 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I read about it the other day. I imagine not many people use it. The OpenSUSE site mentioned it only in a Lizard blog. | Jun 26 17:11 |
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| AlbertoP | You wrote: "OpenSUSE aficionados and Novell sympathisers teased us a little by claiming that OpenSUSE 11.0 was well received. They urged others to believe that there were no negative reviews, but there are actually quite a few, most of which will be shared on Saturday." | Jun 26 20:06 |
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| AlbertoP | could you provide a reference? | Jun 26 20:06 |
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| AlbertoP | I mean a link where someone opensuse related stated that | Jun 26 20:06 |
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| schestowitz | It was Francis, IIRC, who said this. | Jun 26 20:07 |
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| schestowitz | Others, IIRC, sort of rode on his remarks. | Jun 26 20:07 |
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| AlbertoP | well, link it or the post has zero value | Jun 26 20:07 |
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| schestowitz | Hold on. | Jun 26 20:07 |
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| AlbertoP | plus calling "reviews" review is an insult for real reviewers... | Jun 26 20:08 |
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| AlbertoP | they're opinions at best | Jun 26 20:08 |
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| schestowitz | You are very assertive. I've just had a quick look, but I can't find it quickly enough. Do a search for the recent OpenSUSE posts and you'll see it. It's one of the critiques. | Jun 26 20:11 |
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| AlbertoP | no offence of course, but a review is a scientific process where you examine all the details, compare with others and write your conclusions... | Jun 26 20:11 |
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| AlbertoP | what we read, as I wrote in a comment, are "experiences" | Jun 26 20:12 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, I found one example. | Jun 26 20:12 |
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| AlbertoP | good | Jun 26 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008... (it's from the troll borgermaster, not Francis) | Jun 26 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP, I agree about the use of the word review, but nowadays people even call a quick tour 'a review', so I don't know anymore. | Jun 26 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | Blogging lowered the barrier to publishers, so reviews can also consist a few paras. | Jun 26 20:14 |
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| AlbertoP | well, the point is the value given to the review | Jun 26 20:15 |
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| AlbertoP | a review on a blog is not scientific at all | Jun 26 20:15 |
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| AlbertoP | most of the times they're not detailed enough even to reproduce them | Jun 26 20:15 |
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| AlbertoP | and the accuracy is under the soil | Jun 26 20:16 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, if you're being pedantic... word by word... | Jun 26 20:16 |
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| AlbertoP | it's not being pedantic, it's being honest | Jun 26 20:16 |
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| schestowitz | I wouldn't have bothered with that last post if it wasn't for remarks from OpenSUSE's anonymous pos[t]ers. | Jun 26 20:16 |
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| AlbertoP | a review should point out good and bad | Jun 26 20:17 |
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| AlbertoP | with indications to reproduce the problems met | Jun 26 20:17 |
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| AlbertoP | if this is not done, well, the review is, at best, a personal opinion | Jun 26 20:17 |
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| AlbertoP | maybe reliable and honest, but not scientific | Jun 26 20:18 |
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| schestowitz | Okay, are you done ranting about terminology? | Jun 26 20:18 |
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| AlbertoP | no | Jun 26 20:18 |
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| benJIman | "x.1: Bugfix to x.0 to get back to x-1.3 quality/support/compatibility." is just laughable when you consider 10.1 | Jun 26 20:18 |
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| AlbertoP | I'm just saying that your post about opensuse not being "well received" is simply unsupported | Jun 26 20:18 |
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| benJIman | It's not necessarily unsupportable, just you havn't supported it. | Jun 26 20:19 |
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| AlbertoP | and the statement "there are bad reviews when suse guys said the opposite" is unsupported as well, considering you didn't link to anything | Jun 26 20:19 |
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| AlbertoP | exactly benJIman :) | Jun 26 20:19 |
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| AlbertoP | and well, usually ranting is done using other tones ;-) | Jun 26 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP, fine then. Later I'll post a heap of OpenSUSE 11.0 rant, some of which are extensive. That'll make you happier. | Jun 26 20:21 |
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| AlbertoP | well, if supported, I'll consider them helpful | Jun 26 20:22 |
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| AlbertoP | so suse guys will fix the issues | Jun 26 20:22 |
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| schestowitz | No problem. :-) | Jun 26 20:24 |
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| AlbertoP | all this people should really use bugzilla :) | Jun 26 20:25 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I know. I don't post bad reviews. | Jun 26 20:28 |
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| AlbertoP | well, a bad review, but with explanations, is _a_lot_ more useful than a good one | Jun 26 20:30 |
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| AlbertoP | it tells you "hey! we did it wrong, we must fix it bad" | Jun 26 20:30 |
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| AlbertoP | anyway, back to work | Jun 26 20:31 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, agreed. But some people rant if they get angry or waste time. Susan Linton never does this; Beranger does this all the time. | Jun 26 20:31 |
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| AlbertoP | oh well, I'm hypercritical with opensuse myself all the time, but well, there's a distinction between "the problem I have" and "the whole quality of the distribution" | Jun 26 20:32 |
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| AlbertoP | and this rarely appears in reviews | Jun 26 20:32 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP, especially for you, buddy: http://boycottnovell.com/20... . They are instrutive. | Jun 26 21:24 |
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| AlbertoP | thansk | Jun 26 21:25 |
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| AlbertoP | thanks* | Jun 26 21:25 |
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| schestowitz | No problem. I'm off to bed now. | Jun 26 21:25 |
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| AlbertoP | good night | Jun 26 21:26 |
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| RogerBacon | give a break to open suse guy's | Jun 26 21:42 |
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| RogerBacon | ;) | Jun 26 21:42 |
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| AlbertoP | RogerBacon, actually that post just says opensuse is good in about 90% of the reviews ^^ | Jun 26 21:53 |
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| AlbertoP | but well... | Jun 26 21:53 |
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| AlbertoP | I'm the one who likes a "distribution with no directions", because it takes the one I want >:) | Jun 26 21:54 |
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