Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 26th, 2008



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schestowitztessier, I saw that article earlier. Thanks. I posted it along with the latest links.Jun 26 06:05
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cozubmorgenJun 26 08:16
schestowitzHowdy, cozub.Jun 26 08:17
blackrabbithi cozub schestowitzJun 26 08:18
schestowitzGood news for Linux today. I'll post links later, but... RHT's results are a good start for the morning.Jun 26 08:18
tessierschestowitz: Morning? You are just waking up? You live in Australia or something?Jun 26 08:24
cozubUK, afaikJun 26 08:26
blackrabbithi tessierJun 26 08:26
schestowitzI've been waking up around 5AM recently. It's quite bright outside at that time.Jun 26 08:26
blackrabbitI didn't see you here yesterday, nice to meet you tessierJun 26 08:26
blackrabbitI didn't see you here either cozub or did I?Jun 26 08:26
tessierblackrabbit: I've been here for a week or two. Nice to meet you too.Jun 26 08:26
cozubwell, I'm mostly idling around and just reading stuff when I have the timeJun 26 08:26
blackrabbit:DJun 26 08:26
cozubI'm not really keeping upJun 26 08:27
cozubwith the happenings here or @ BNJun 26 08:27
blackrabbitcozub, if I have not spoken to you, nice to meet you :DJun 26 08:27
cozubnj, nice to meet you too :)Jun 26 08:27
blackrabbittessier, I suggested the creation of this channel via tor to schestowitz's excellent site, to my surprise, he created it!Jun 26 08:27
blackrabbittessier, I've been following schestowitz's efforts online for a long time now, he really is a heroJun 26 08:28
tessierYeah, I've been following him for a few years too.Jun 26 08:28
blackrabbittessier, unlike a lot of active websites, schestowitz actually reads user comments and appreciates them!Jun 26 08:28
tessierMostly via c.o.l.a.Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbittessier, he is great, isn't he?Jun 26 08:29
schestowitzThanjks, blackrabbit.Jun 26 08:29
tessieryepJun 26 08:29
blackrabbitschestowitz, thank you :DJun 26 08:29
blackrabbittessier, oh, another newsgroup user?Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbithow do you filter all of the newsgroup spam?Jun 26 08:30
cozubdoes the l and a in cola stand for linux advocacy? :)Jun 26 08:30
cozub(pardon my ignorance)Jun 26 08:30
schestowitzcozub, yes, it's comp.os.linux.advocacyJun 26 08:35
schestowitzI only found out about it in 2005. Prior to this I was in technical newsgroups, including the SUSE one.Jun 26 08:35
cozubthx. I heard of that group... but it's been some time since I stopped reading news; maybe I can give it another tryJun 26 08:37
schestowitzYou would probably need filters. There are abusive trolls there. Speaking of abuse, I've just cleaned up BN spam. GNAA is still spamming us (N and F words all over the place, as usual). It's not even comments. They flood the Web (inc. Slashdot) with automated self-promotion. It's gross to read.Jun 26 08:41
blackrabbitschestowitz, I've tried filters but how do you stop them from filtering good information?Jun 26 08:45
tessierblackrabbit: Filter by authorJun 26 08:45
tessierThe trolls never post good informationJun 26 08:46
blackrabbitthanks tessier I always filtered by content and it blocked a lot of good postsJun 26 08:48
tessierYou can probably reliably filter on swear words and racial words etcJun 26 08:49
schestowitzNot all the trolls curse.Jun 26 08:52
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schestowitzOpenSUSE's fans seem to be in a tizzy. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0...Jun 26 14:00
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schestowitzwb, moparx Jun 26 15:20
schestowitzEruaran, , seen this yet? http://practical-tech.com/bus...Jun 26 15:32
Eruaranhi royJun 26 15:51
EruaranI just sat downJun 26 15:51
schestowitzNot the first rant from him (first it was about desktop icons). :-(Jun 26 15:52
Eruaraneverybody knows 4.04 isn't the stable releaseJun 26 15:52
schestowitzYes, I was surprised by this too. The 4.1 branch (testing) ought to be better. The last report from PolishLinux was OK.Jun 26 15:54
EruaranYes, the word I'm hearing is that 4.1 is set to be a big improvement and the release the KDE devs are comfortable with as the first stable release thats ready for general use.Jun 26 15:56
EruaranThe fact that there has not been a stable release yet seems to evade some of these people who write reviews. Nobody said it was stable.Jun 26 15:56
schestowitzDiscussion here (just left a comment myself): http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/28092Jun 26 15:59
schestowitzNo, 4.2 might be needed for an 3.5-quality release. 4.2 _at the least_. Crashes/error versus user experience is the key At the end (very edn), it's important to get the latter right.Jun 26 16:00
EruaranThis guys review is just plain stupidJun 26 16:01
EruaranHe's taking good features that KDE4 has and slagging off about it without good reasonJun 26 16:01
schestowitzMy comment was short and I responded because they shoot the messenger, who is a bit of a friend. I wrote: "Trust Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols: I do trust the man, but watch what he's reviewing (old version). He needs to be patient. I'm sure it'll turn around."Jun 26 16:01
Eruaran"the ‘icons’ have small controls so you can work with the icon itself. Ah… why? This isn’t a Mac, I have a right mouse button key and I’m not afraid to click it."Jun 26 16:01
schestowitzYou reckon he trolls? I never saw him doing that. Honest.Jun 26 16:02
EruaranThis guy is just a dickJun 26 16:02
EruaranyesJun 26 16:02
EruarandefinatelyJun 26 16:02
schestowitzThe LinuxDevices people sometimes trolled.Jun 26 16:02
EruaranI have not met a single person who has tried KDE 4 who didn't like the little controls that light up on icons when you mouse over themJun 26 16:02
schestowitzI'll need to read it carefully. I read only the beginning.Jun 26 16:02
EruaranMy mum loves it because it makes sense to her (she doesn't understand right clicking and holding down shift or ctrl)Jun 26 16:03
EruaranMy boss loves it, he just says, "thats hot"Jun 26 16:03
EruaranAnd this guy is demonstrating he knows nothing about usabilityJun 26 16:04
schestowitzCool. By the way, is it true that KDE 3.5 isn't on the OSUSE CD?Jun 26 16:04
EruarandunnoJun 26 16:04
EruaranI don't pay much attention to OSuseJun 26 16:04
EruaranI think its highly overratedJun 26 16:04
schestowitzSusan is hyping it up (Tux Machines)Jun 26 16:05
EruaranPeople always hype OSuse up... and yet I've never been overly impressed when I've tried it for myselfJun 26 16:05
EruaranI don't get itJun 26 16:05
EruaranUbuntu has much better hardware supportJun 26 16:06
Eruaran"My smallest PC displays are 20.1” these days. There was never enough room on them for KDE 4" - this is just rubbishJun 26 16:07
schestowitzLadislav too...Jun 26 16:07
EruaranWe have KDE 4.1 beta1 on a demo system at work with a 22" widescreen (not much bigger) and its fantasticJun 26 16:08
schestowitzI'm not sure about hardware support. I've tried both on several computers and both worked quite perfectly without any yinkering.Jun 26 16:08
schestowitz*tinkering.Jun 26 16:08
EruaranOSuse doesn't have bad hardware supportJun 26 16:08
EruaranJust not as good as UbuntuJun 26 16:09
schestowitzNovell has the advantage which is those 'marketing people they hire'. New guy BTW:Jun 26 16:09
schestowitzhttp://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=480Jun 26 16:09
schestowitzI call them Novell boosters because their role (paid for) is to change perception. That's all. It comes from the term Microsoft booster. Microsoft is a marketing company. Same with Apple.Jun 26 16:10
EruaranAnd why are fuddsters still reviewing KDE 4.04 when 4.1 beta2 is out ?Jun 26 16:10
schestowitzOpenSUSE. That's why.Jun 26 16:11
schestowitzI can't convince SJVN to skip or ignore the sellouts.Jun 26 16:11
EruaranI would blame OpenSuse for thatJun 26 16:12
schestowitzHe knows people from there. In fact, eWeek gave Xandros and Linspire a lot of publicity; without SJVN, they /still/ do.Jun 26 16:12
EruaranIf they're pushing it as if its ready for prime time, thats their fault.Jun 26 16:12
schestowitzOpenSUSE also comes with FF beta, IIRC.Jun 26 16:12
schestowitzI don't want to draw attention to SJVN's alleged 'trolling', so I won't do a post blaming OpenSUSE..Jun 26 16:13
EruaranI think these guys just don't understand KDE's development processJun 26 16:13
schestowitzI think KDE could use marketing muscle. They should have never released 4.0 as though it's a product but more as a developer's 'SDK'Jun 26 16:14
EruaranAaron went to great lengths to explain it on his blogJun 26 16:15
schestowitzDistros that try to earn 'cutting-edge' merit (F9 too) are giving software that's not necessarily good for all users just yet.Jun 26 16:15
EruaranSo did a couple of the other guysJun 26 16:15
schestowitzEruaran, blogs are not seen as widely.Jun 26 16:15
schestowitzI wrote about it too.Jun 26 16:15
schestowitzI had 3.9 running alongside 3.5 at one stage. Actually, it's still installed.Jun 26 16:16
Eruaranwell even less widely now that Aarons has gone privateJun 26 16:16
schestowitz:-)Jun 26 16:16
schestowitzAccident, no?Jun 26 16:16
EruaranI noticed in the last couple of weeks that he lost patience with peopleJun 26 16:17
EruaranI think he's just fed up with all the crap being thrown at himJun 26 16:17
schestowitzHans for example. Also SJVN... yes, they take it out on him.. Beranger went through the trouble of putting "Seigo" in cartoons.Jun 26 16:18
EruaranI know myself that people just do not listenJun 26 16:18
EruaranAnd of course Microsoft would look at all this and be quite happy watching the community bleed itselfJun 26 16:19
schestowitzThat's what I was going to approach.Jun 26 16:20
schestowitzA friend of mine who is a professor has watch the BSDs and Linux for decades. He reckons Microsoft games it in subtle ways too.Jun 26 16:21
schestowitz*watchedJun 26 16:21
schestowitzHe was also fascinated when I showed him this leak: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf (Microsoft explains/is taught, among many things, that Microsoft should increase friction among rivals)Jun 26 16:22
Eruaran"KDE 4.1. Beta 2 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users"Jun 26 16:34
schestowitzFrom KDE's site?Jun 26 16:35
EruaranyesJun 26 16:35
EruaranLets see how many people who review it actually report it that way though...Jun 26 16:36
schestowitzRemember the kernel hacker's petition? Just found this: http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819 "nvidia.ko: The NVidia driver is the single component in a KDE4 / Free Operating system stack causing us most of the hard-to-solve problems. In other words, nvidia.ko has grave technical shortcomings."Jun 26 16:36
EruaranyesJun 26 16:36
EruaranAnd Aaron has taken a firm stand on that sort of thingJun 26 16:37
schestowitzUbuntu devs used to complain (hopping mad) at AMD for making eye candy by default impossible.Jun 26 16:37
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EruaranThe KDE devs are not going to hack about trying to fix something that is Nvidia's faultJun 26 16:37
schestowitzI know this because I was there approaching them along with others like Phoronix and those who filed bug  reports.Jun 26 16:38
schestowitzLooking at post AMD's big announcement archives, I spouted out some serious s* about them, calling people never to touch their products (I have an ATI card on this machines). I was not alone.Jun 26 16:39
schestowitzhi, kentma!Jun 26 16:39
kentmahi schestowitz!Jun 26 16:39
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schestowitzHi, PetoKraus.Jun 26 16:47
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benJImanschestowitz: firefox final was pushed out with an online update within a few hours from release.Jun 26 16:56
benJImanschestowitz: Also 3.5 is on the DVD, there is not a livecd installer for it.Jun 26 16:57
schestowitzThanks, that's what I suspected (about Firefox). As for KDE 3.5, I though the installer was universal and had 3 options (DEs).Jun 26 16:59
benJImanschestowitz: On the DVD yes. The livecds just dump the image onto disk like ubuntu.Jun 26 17:09
schestowitzHmmm... I never had a DVD drive (let alone a CD burner). Don't ask. :-)Jun 26 17:10
benJImanNetinstall or whatever would be the same as dvd.Jun 26 17:11
schestowitzYes, I read about it the other day. I imagine not many people use it. The OpenSUSE site mentioned it only in a Lizard blog.Jun 26 17:11
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AlbertoPYou wrote: "OpenSUSE aficionados and Novell sympathisers teased us a little by claiming that OpenSUSE 11.0 was well received. They urged others to believe that there were no negative reviews, but there are actually quite a few, most of which will be shared on Saturday."Jun 26 20:06
AlbertoPcould you provide a reference?Jun 26 20:06
AlbertoPI mean a link where someone opensuse related stated thatJun 26 20:06
schestowitzIt was Francis, IIRC, who said this.Jun 26 20:07
schestowitzOthers, IIRC, sort of rode on his remarks.Jun 26 20:07
AlbertoPwell, link it or the post has zero valueJun 26 20:07
schestowitzHold on.Jun 26 20:07
AlbertoPplus calling "reviews" review is an insult for real reviewers...Jun 26 20:08
AlbertoPthey're opinions at bestJun 26 20:08
schestowitzYou are very assertive. I've just had a quick look, but I can't find it quickly enough. Do a search for the recent OpenSUSE posts and you'll see it. It's one of the critiques.Jun 26 20:11
AlbertoPno offence of course, but a review is a scientific process where you examine all the details, compare with others and write your conclusions...Jun 26 20:11
AlbertoPwhat we read, as I wrote in a comment, are "experiences"Jun 26 20:12
schestowitzOh, I found one example.Jun 26 20:12
AlbertoPgoodJun 26 20:13
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008... (it's from the troll borgermaster, not Francis)Jun 26 20:13
schestowitzAlbertoP, I agree about the use of the word review, but nowadays people even call a quick tour 'a review', so I don't know anymore.Jun 26 20:13
schestowitzBlogging lowered the barrier to publishers, so reviews can also consist a few paras.Jun 26 20:14
AlbertoPwell, the point is the value given to the reviewJun 26 20:15
AlbertoPa review on a blog is not scientific at allJun 26 20:15
AlbertoPmost of the times they're not detailed enough even to reproduce themJun 26 20:15
AlbertoPand the accuracy is under the soilJun 26 20:16
schestowitzYes, if you're being pedantic... word by word...Jun 26 20:16
AlbertoPit's not being pedantic, it's being honestJun 26 20:16
schestowitzI wouldn't have bothered with that last post if it wasn't for remarks from OpenSUSE's anonymous pos[t]ers.Jun 26 20:16
AlbertoPa review should point out good and badJun 26 20:17
AlbertoPwith indications to reproduce the problems metJun 26 20:17
AlbertoPif this is not done, well, the review is, at best, a personal opinionJun 26 20:17
AlbertoPmaybe reliable and honest, but not scientificJun 26 20:18
schestowitzOkay, are you done ranting about terminology?Jun 26 20:18
AlbertoPnoJun 26 20:18
benJIman"x.1: Bugfix to x.0 to get back to x-1.3 quality/support/compatibility." is just laughable when you consider 10.1Jun 26 20:18
AlbertoPI'm just saying that your post about opensuse not being "well received" is simply unsupportedJun 26 20:18
benJImanIt's not necessarily unsupportable, just you havn't supported it.Jun 26 20:19
AlbertoPand the statement "there are bad reviews when suse guys said the opposite" is unsupported as well, considering you didn't link to anythingJun 26 20:19
AlbertoPexactly benJIman :)Jun 26 20:19
AlbertoPand well, usually ranting is done using other tones ;-)Jun 26 20:20
schestowitzAlbertoP, fine then. Later I'll post a heap of OpenSUSE 11.0 rant, some of which are extensive. That'll make you happier.Jun 26 20:21
AlbertoPwell, if supported, I'll consider them helpfulJun 26 20:22
AlbertoPso suse guys will fix the issuesJun 26 20:22
schestowitzNo problem. :-)Jun 26 20:24
AlbertoPall this people should really use bugzilla :)Jun 26 20:25
schestowitzYes, I know. I don't post bad reviews.Jun 26 20:28
AlbertoPwell, a bad review, but with explanations, is _a_lot_ more useful than a good oneJun 26 20:30
AlbertoPit tells you "hey! we did it wrong, we must fix it bad"Jun 26 20:30
AlbertoPanyway, back to workJun 26 20:31
schestowitzYes, agreed. But some people rant if they get angry or waste time. Susan Linton never does this; Beranger does this all the time.Jun 26 20:31
AlbertoPoh well, I'm hypercritical with opensuse myself all the time, but well, there's a distinction between "the problem I have" and "the whole quality of the distribution"Jun 26 20:32
AlbertoPand this rarely appears in reviewsJun 26 20:32
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schestowitzAlbertoP, especially for you, buddy: http://boycottnovell.com/20... . They are instrutive.Jun 26 21:24
AlbertoPthanskJun 26 21:25
AlbertoPthanks*Jun 26 21:25
schestowitzNo problem. I'm off to bed now.Jun 26 21:25
AlbertoPgood nightJun 26 21:26
RogerBacongive a break to open suse guy'sJun 26 21:42
RogerBacon;)Jun 26 21:42
AlbertoPRogerBacon, actually that post just says opensuse is good in about 90% of the reviews ^^Jun 26 21:53
AlbertoPbut well...Jun 26 21:53
AlbertoPI'm the one who likes a "distribution with no directions", because it takes the one I want >:)Jun 26 21:54
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SUSE Blog is Still LLM Slop, Marketing Manager at SUSE Cannot Write
Would you buy from a company or seek support from a company that cannot even write (or fakes writing)?
Pretend You're Not Dead: Microsoft Spent Almost Two Decades Rebranding Things as "Cloud, Then "AI", Now "XBox" and "Quantum"
"AI" bubble pops, Microsoft harping about "quantum" already
IBM Allegedly Found New Tricks for Silent Layoffs: LPI, Then MIS (Not PIP)
Remember that "Red Hat layoffs" won't be reported after the bluewashing
Links 16/10/2025: Red Lines and Feeding of Microsoft Trolls
Links for the day
MIT as a Propaganda Mill of GAFAM, Paid by GAFAM
"the news" today
Links 16/10/2025: Lies Euphemised as ‘Dueling Versions of Reality’ and Microsoft "Open" "Hey Hi" Resorts to Porn as No Business Model Was Found
Links for the day
The Local Staff Committee Munich (Representation of the EPO's Staff) Explains When Cluster of Pregnancies May Result in Reduced Pay
"...even one week of part-time working is sufficient to reduce the salary you perceive during the entirety of your maternity leave."
Another Black Eye for 'Secure Boot', Microsoft Media Tries to Blame "Linux"
It enables Microsoft to remotely control computers, even computers that don't run Windows and never had any Microsoft software installed
Slopwatch: UbuntuPIT, linuxsecurity.com, and Various Slopfarms in Google News Attacking "Linux"
A new survey of the Web said that the majority of the Web is now slop (that's being said in the news this week)
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, October 15, 2025
IRC logs for Wednesday, October 15, 2025
Links 16/10/2025: Increased Use of Social Control Media Surveillance in US, French Rage Over Pensions
Links for the day