| foobar__087 | s/stats/states/ | Oct 11 20:59 |
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| MinceR | when you could get something better for free | Oct 11 20:59 |
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| AlbertoP | and they were windows based | Oct 11 20:59 |
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| MinceR | oh, we all know how smart people in parliaments are | Oct 11 20:59 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, I don't use SLED either...and I understood you :) | Oct 11 20:59 |
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| foobar__087 | :) | Oct 11 20:59 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, well they want someone behind what they use, that's all | Oct 11 21:00 |
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| MinceR | some people are happily using windows, i'm sure | Oct 11 21:00 |
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| AlbertoP | RH offered the same for more than twice the price, fyi | Oct 11 21:00 |
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| MinceR | oh, you mean suse is the only distro with paid support | Oct 11 21:00 |
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| MinceR | ? | Oct 11 21:00 |
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| AlbertoP | the offers were public | Oct 11 21:00 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR what would be better in your opinion? | Oct 11 21:00 |
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| MinceR | i wonder what these offers from redhat and canonical are | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| foobar__087 | and now please don't say buntu ... | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, there was a public selection. The only offers were three: RH, Novell, Mandriva... | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: red hat, kubuntu -- or just about anything if there's a support company for it | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| MinceR | or hiring staff yourself and using whatever you want. | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, RH offered it at twice the price LOL | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087: among Novell services you'll find just UNIX->Linux migrations. i wrote about it last week. | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| MinceR | perhaps it was twice as good LOL | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| AlbertoP | Mandriva didn't respond to requirements | Oct 11 21:01 |
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| AlbertoP | hehe be serious :) | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| foobar__087 | I'm sorry but kbuntu is a pos / a sad joke regarding its kde integration (besides the buntu under the skirt) | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | SLED is a good desktop, MinceR | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| MinceR | if price is all that matters, they can download kubuntu at 0 cost and manage it themselves | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| MinceR | schestowitz: so it doesn't suck as much as opensuse? | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | There's no point in ridiculing products from Novell because they use similar components to the rest | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| MinceR | where the netinstall involved typing in the IP address of an ftp server we were supposed to know beforehand? | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: it's just a rebranded x.1 release with better patches (better tested) | Oct 11 21:02 |
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| MinceR | and where a daemon started under x that screwed up keyboard handling completely until my friend (who wanted opensuse) killed it and the problem was fixed? | Oct 11 21:03 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, did someone wrote something positive about that daemon in the opensuse community? | Oct 11 21:03 |
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| AlbertoP | Fyi, because you need a lot of information, considering what you say, NO. We were the first to ask for its removal, and it was removed. | Oct 11 21:04 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087: I agree on Kubuntu based on my limited experience with it (it's on my other partition on this one PC). Madriva is better for KDE. | Oct 11 21:04 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR sry, but imho knowing the ip from where to install during a netinstall is kinda mandatory ... | Oct 11 21:04 |
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| AlbertoP | And probably, a product should be judged on the long run, not for a single problem. Don't you think? | Oct 11 21:04 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, hehe it's not necessary anymore :-) | Oct 11 21:05 |
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| AlbertoP | I think :-? | Oct 11 21:05 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: oh, you haven't heard of this neat little invention called DNS? | Oct 11 21:05 |
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| *AlbertoP checks... they discussed to use urls | Oct 11 21:05 |
| MinceR | foobar__087: or the possibility of putting the urls/ip addresses on the install cd? | Oct 11 21:06 |
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| MinceR | i guess that's just too advanced for suse | Oct 11 21:06 |
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| *foobar__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Oct 11 21:06 |
| AlbertoP | MinceR, the problem was mainly due not to overload a reduced set of mirrors | Oct 11 21:06 |
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| MinceR | there's round-robin DNS and they could have also put in a list | Oct 11 21:06 |
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| MinceR | and selected randomly | Oct 11 21:06 |
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| AlbertoP | and the netinst didn't really bother anyone, because it is the less used installation procedure | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| MinceR | this isn't rocket science! | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR er, what does this have to do if you didn't configure it yet - or is your whole problem that dns isn't setup during the netinstall step so one has to enter the ip? | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| MinceR | it could ask for the ip address of the dns servers if it couldn't get them via dhcp | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, what has this to do with the quality of SLED I don't know though | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| MinceR | those i'm more likely to know | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| AlbertoP | SLED can't be netinstalled ^^ | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: so it's an even more retarded version of opensuse? | Oct 11 21:07 |
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| *MinceR runs to buy a dozen | Oct 11 21:07 |
| AlbertoP | you've the media, but not the repo online | Oct 11 21:08 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, no, but it's not distribuited with a public repo. It's commercial product, exactly as Red Hat... | Oct 11 21:08 |
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| MinceR | you know, the suse guys could have just forked debian and came up with a much better distro | Oct 11 21:08 |
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| AlbertoP | you can download the DVD | Oct 11 21:08 |
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| MinceR | guess what, repos can use http authentication | Oct 11 21:08 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, what is the origin of SUSE? | Oct 11 21:08 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR it nefver occurred to me as a big problem but perhaps you have some point. Have you filled a bugreport so they have to fix it then? | Oct 11 21:08 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: i used a distro that works instead of that. | Oct 11 21:09 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, it's a lost discussion :) | Oct 11 21:09 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR out of curiosity - which one was that? | Oct 11 21:09 |
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| MinceR | at the time it was gentoo | Oct 11 21:09 |
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| MinceR | now i'm using kubuntu | Oct 11 21:09 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: yes, it's a lost discussion because you don't listen | Oct 11 21:09 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: SUSE 11 can. | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| schestowitz | SLED 11 probably will. | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| schestowitz | (netinstalled | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, can netinstall? | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| kentma | just installed ubuntu 8.04 on a dell latitude - owner had become infected with some windows problem - it's an exceptionally easy install. | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| schestowitz | I think one of the Lizards blogged it some weeks ago. | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| kentma | everything seems to work out of the box, including the live keys on the keyboard. | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, yes, opensuse 10.x too | Oct 11 21:10 |
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| MinceR | i think the one i installed for a friend was opensuse 10.x | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| foobar__087 | ah well, gentoo is apparently quite fine if you have the time & the knowledge. But Kubuntu is no "working distro" but a joke I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot stick - so I guess we have different requirements. | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| MinceR | a joke, as opposed to suse? | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, I'm not sure about SLE actually. I assume they require authentication, as for patches, so they don't allow it...but I never tried | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| MinceR | excuse me while i laugh my ass off at you. | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| kentma | I'm watching Merlin on bbc iplayer (flash) whilst playing lincity and have been playing mythtv recordings, his mp4a collection from itunes and checked his documents from 'documents and settings' in open-office. everything just works. | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: yes, I never had problems installing stuff in years. | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| schestowitz | It depends on the PCs, I guess (h/w) | Oct 11 21:11 |
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| AlbertoP | ehh I'm a bit older probably ^^ | Oct 11 21:12 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR e.g - I'm pretty happy with opensuse on the desktop (cause I couldn't care less about that MS deal since IMHO it doesn't affect anyone) and CentOS on the server. | Oct 11 21:12 |
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| schestowitz | I just assume everything works when it boots. | Oct 11 21:12 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: the hardware support is fantastic. full wireless networking, everything. | Oct 11 21:12 |
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| AlbertoP | I've been using suse quite a bit before the N acquisition, and the agreement 8-) | Oct 11 21:12 |
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| schestowitz | Network, sound, X... | Oct 11 21:12 |
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| kentma | yup, all of that. opengl (intel card), even got wobbly windows by selecting "higher" effects (or some such). | Oct 11 21:13 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: i'm sure sending a part of the money paid for computers that have ballnux preinstalled doesn't affect anyone | Oct 11 21:13 |
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| AlbertoP | when debian was a text install distro, gentoo was hum...trying to compile, red hat was RPM breakage, Mandriva was "Oh god the deps", suse had a nice smooth user experience, with perfect hardware detection and automated services also on 2.4 kernels... | Oct 11 21:13 |
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| MinceR | a nice smooth user experience, such as entering the ip address of an ftp server by hand | Oct 11 21:13 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: all the keyboards special keys (sleep, volume, etc) are autoconfigged nicely by Mandriva | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, oh I forgot...ubuntu didn't exist! :) | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| schestowitz | There was a CD that came with the machine. | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| MinceR | because we all know that nice smooth user experience means that the installer is graphica | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| MinceR | l | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| kentma | the ntfs resize worked really well - windowsxp wanted to chkdsk the drive, but then booted and worked just as badly, with all of the spyware workign perfectly after the resize. all special keys work in Ubuntu, too. | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| MinceR | because we're scared to death if the display is in text mode | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| schestowitz | For Windows, an installation of s/w is need ed to make these keys work :-D | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| MinceR | why are using a computer again? | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR so don't buy one that has "Ballnux" (whatever that might be) installed but only the hardware. The choice is yours - so the problem is? | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: many vendors only offer windows or ballnux | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, is installation the only thing that affects user experience? LOL | Oct 11 21:14 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: ballnux is any distro whose producers have bought into the microsoft patent racket. | Oct 11 21:15 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: such as suse, opensuse, xandros, turbolinux and linspire. | Oct 11 21:15 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: no, the crappy keyboard handling affects it too, LOL | Oct 11 21:15 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, hum? | Oct 11 21:16 |
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| MinceR | that's what opensuse did -- read your buffer | Oct 11 21:16 |
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| AlbertoP | right because ubuntu is always perfect hehe | Oct 11 21:16 |
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| schestowitz | Freespire? | Oct 11 21:16 |
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| MinceR | compared to suse, it is | Oct 11 21:16 |
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| AlbertoP | let's be real for once...all the distros has some problem | Oct 11 21:17 |
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| AlbertoP | you don't really evaluate them for a bug in something | Oct 11 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | OpenSUSE is not necessarily a Ballnux. It's its preparation.. It's like an unborn Ballny. | Oct 11 21:17 |
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| MinceR | and *suse has multiple problems, including the one where you keep funding the bastards who ruined the IT industry | Oct 11 21:17 |
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| AlbertoP | if you are interested, you report it and see how they react | Oct 11 21:17 |
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| MinceR | -- and who are still trying to remove your option to use any version of linux at all. | Oct 11 21:17 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, we enjoy the same pleasures actually :) | Oct 11 21:17 |
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| AlbertoP | opensuse is the base for SLE | Oct 11 21:18 |
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| schestowitz | Huh? :-o | Oct 11 21:18 |
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| AlbertoP | I mean that the software is exactly the same | Oct 11 21:18 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, "we" as in "You're SUSE" | Oct 11 21:18 |
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| MinceR | and i presume there's a reason why i've kept hearing how suse sucks from my friends for a long time. | Oct 11 21:18 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR I'm sorry but buying a computer without a preinstalled OS isn't really hard (at least in my part of the world). So bitching about loads of computers that have a preinstalled OS you don't like doesn't sound very bright. Simply vote with your money and don't buy them. | Oct 11 21:18 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: it can be really hard if you're looking for a laptop made by a reputable manufacturer. | Oct 11 21:19 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: i've been there so i know. | Oct 11 21:19 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, really? You can always ask for a refund of the OS... | Oct 11 21:19 |
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| schestowitz | Even Ubuntu mobile/Remix is taited. | Oct 11 21:19 |
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| AlbertoP | _always_ | Oct 11 21:19 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft codecs. Can't opt out... | Oct 11 21:19 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I doubt I could find any ordinary person on the street who would be able to find a PC, or a laptop, without Windows or OSX pre-installed. It's specialist knowledge. | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: also, not everyone is bright enough to make the correct decision -- as long as people buy preinstalled suse because "it's linux", they're harming themselves and the community. | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | That's why I bought my PC without an O/S. | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | I won't pay Dell joining Novell/Microsoft, which _they did_ | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: yes, i can always _ask_ but i won't necessarily be given one | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | *pay for Dell | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, no wait...it's ubuntu saying "Ubuntu is Linux", not really SUSE | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| MinceR | people have to fight tooth and nail and often fail | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: hm, what is suse saying then? | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, oh no no you can get it | Oct 11 21:20 |
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| MinceR | i remember the guy who had to sign an NDA with lenovo so they'd refund vista for him | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| schestowitz | Ubuntu..........Linux for human beings. | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, suse has the same agreement with vendors RH has. They preinstall SUSE on certain machines. That's all. | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| schestowitz | Not: Ubuntu is Linux....... for human beings. | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| kentma | MinceR: is that even legal? | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| MinceR | i don't know | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma you go in the shop and say "Without OS please" - The question is if poeple want this or not. | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: question if the shop will sell it to you that way | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I've tried that - it doesn't work. | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, you'd agree that Mark Shuttleworth goes around speaking as the king of linux...while he just steals from debian and adds something here and there... | Oct 11 21:21 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: the response I've had has been "there's no demand" | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| schestowitz | The question is about policing. | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: most people could not do this. | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| MinceR | i haven't heard him speaking as the king of linux | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| schestowitz | This type of buncling should be made illegal | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I know how to, but most people do not. | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| MinceR | but i've seen him fund a debian fork that's really good | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| schestowitz | In France, it'a relady being pursed by consumer groups | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| AlbertoP | well, it's pretty easy to obtain Windows refund | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| MinceR | well, i don't expect that bundling to go away anytime soon in the backwater country i'm in (hungary) | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR I don't agree. When they pay for Suse they give Novell money which helps to finance their developers who work on KDE, Gnome, Also, OpenOffice, the Kernel and probably every other bigger linux project. | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: so it should be, too. the present situation is appalling. | Oct 11 21:22 |
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| AlbertoP | just don't activate it, and ask when buying if you buy online (DELL) | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: and some of that money goes to microsoft and helps finance their efforts to crush linu | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| MinceR | x | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: *LOL* easy to get a refund? | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| AlbertoP | I did that once because I had already a licence | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: dont' feed the trolls... | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, yes, it is... | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: why don't you go and see if dell even offers an option without windows for most of their laptops? | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| MinceR | protip: they don't | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, Dell actually sells ubuntu on their laptops ^^ | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR why would some of that money go to Microsoft? Last time I checked Novell makes money from that deal. | Oct 11 21:23 |
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| MinceR | also, iirc dell has bought into the patent racket under the carpet | Oct 11 21:24 |
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| kentma | MinceR: it would be much better for the troll to find the list and bring it back. | Oct 11 21:24 |
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| MinceR | so if you buy a dell even with ubuntu, ballmer gets paid. | Oct 11 21:24 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: afaik money goes both ways between m$ and novell as they together try to crush linux. | Oct 11 21:24 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: Dell charges money for their 'Linux'. | Oct 11 21:24 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, not anymore. See DirectToDel | Oct 11 21:25 |
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| AlbertoP | l | Oct 11 21:25 |
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| schestowitz | Here in the UK I heard of Novatech back in 2004. They are a rarity. They totally deduct Windows tax. The PCs are Linux ready. | Oct 11 21:25 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR that is wrong. Novell makes much more money from that deal than they pay (if they pay something at all). Which is one of the reasons I think that deal is good (cause it just gets them some money). | Oct 11 21:25 |
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| MinceR | just | Oct 11 21:26 |
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| foobar__087 | just? | Oct 11 21:26 |
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| MinceR | never mind that ballmer can point at that deal and say it proves his claims of patent infringement | Oct 11 21:26 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: money is clearly moving both ways. | Oct 11 21:26 |
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| MinceR | just keep ignoring the facts and you'll be happy. | Oct 11 21:26 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, however, for consumers it is not as hard as you say to get refunded for Windows, especially in Europe. Really. You simply need to contact your vendor and not to activate your licence. If you ask that at the moment of purchase, you won't be charged for the licence by DELL for example. | Oct 11 21:26 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR as he can point now at the kernel and cry "IT INFRINGES 12723486234 PATENTS!" - point being it doesn't affect anyone. | Oct 11 21:27 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: it does | Oct 11 21:27 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: it tells the uninitiated that this choice of platform is dangerous | Oct 11 21:27 |
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| MinceR | that's the whole point of FUD. | Oct 11 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | Economics of FUD... BusinessWeek 2007 | Oct 11 21:27 |
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| foobar__087 | no cause there is no ground to base those claims on except FUD and we both no that this isn't the right thing to build a house on ;) | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| foobar__087 | s/no/know/ | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| MinceR | (m$ should be sued for spouting those claims btw) | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: FUD is very well understood - how could you possibly excuse it? It's despicable behaviour. | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | Should be reposted in the Gangster Tribute | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | Or Gangster Tribune | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | Where is the policing? | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma I'm not excusing it but I'm saying that FUD doesn't matter to any legal patent issues. | Oct 11 21:28 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, do you think MS is succeeding in it? | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: well, it certainly got novell to sign a deal with them | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087 is an opensuse guy, kentma. It's a troll. | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: also turbolinux, linspire, xandros, dell | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: it does matter. I know, I've spent hours discussing these issues with the legal folk in my $employer. | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: the more important effects would be more difficult to gauge | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| schestowitz | That's why I asked question when someone called "foobar" came here.. | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| foobar__087 | as in he can claim what he (Balmer) wants until he puts his cards on the table. And if he really had any claims he had crushed linux long time ago before it grew as big as it is now. | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, the deal was signed for other reasons. The point is, do you think people gave up on RH to use a MS -protected distro, for example? | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: that is, linux adoption in businesses | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: ah, foobar__087 is another troll? wow. | Oct 11 21:29 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: they might have, and as i've said that's more difficult to gauge | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| kentma | It would explain the apparent foolishness. | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, am I a troll also? :-) | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| AlbertoP | I mean "using opensuse => troll"? :P | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: another one for the .ignore file... :-) | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: maybe called in by AlbertoP (reinforcement) | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | The OpenSUSE do this a lot | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: well, either you're a troll or your judgement is clouded by your financial interests or you're militantly ignorant. | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| foobar__087 | excuse me? So I'm trolling cause I don't buy into this patent FUD story but believe that there aren't any valid claims and therefore no threat? | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, without us...your channel would not exist! | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| AlbertoP | what a piety eh? | Oct 11 21:30 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: AlbertoP is clearly a troll, and it would appear that foobar__087 is, too. | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| schestowitz | When things heat up, spies like benJIman go to #opensuse to invite some friends for backup | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, you forgot benJIman ! | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| schestowitz | Been seen many times befor.e | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, looool | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i think we'd all prefer if there was no need for this channel to exist. | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| AlbertoP | hahahaha | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, do you really think benJIman convinced me to come? | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| MinceR | did it take a lot of convincing? | Oct 11 21:31 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma that "They don't agree with my point of view and therefore they are trolling" doesn't really sound very bright. | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: in a way, it's kind of good to know that these people cannot be this stupid, that really, they're just being paid to spin a line. I'd really hate to think that anyone could eb this dumb. | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| AlbertoP | and btw, foobar__087 is not around on opensuse channels, are you? | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, actually he didn't ask :) | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: you're trolling, and you're not fooling anyone here. | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087 does not exist | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| schestowitz | That's the point | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: you need a far more subtle approach to push your venom. | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| schestowitz | It's a nym | Oct 11 21:32 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, as I said I've been using SUSE long before Novell and openSUSE...I don't need to be convinced ;) | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| schestowitz | He even nymshifted earlier. | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma Again, how am I trolling? Cause I don't agree with your point of view or because I don't buy this patent threat story or ... ? | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: i'm not surprised. troll tactics are amazingly unimaginative. | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: go away, please. | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087 could even be AlbertoP in theory but the IPs don't intersectl | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, as I said before, troll said by someone founding its existance on trolling is a compliment ;) | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| schestowitz | It could be Ronnie Hovo-sapient. | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| foobar__087 | schestowitz fyi I`m using irc2go | Oct 11 21:33 |
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| schestowitz | Fair enough. | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | Are all of them called foobar then? | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | mib calls them mib_xxxx | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: bound to be :-) | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, I'm not multiple... | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | I know. | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| foobar__087 | schestowitz no, one can choose a nick during join - I enter foobar everywhere, an old habbit | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | I was being hypothetical.. well, hypothetically speaking | Oct 11 21:34 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, and to be honest, I would like a serious opposition to Novell...it would help to fix the issues where they are, when it's the case. The problem is that some of the good points are lost in all the fud. | Oct 11 21:35 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: have you been watching and/or reading the Richard Dawkins stuff lately? | Oct 11 21:35 |
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| *AlbertoP grabs Geeko and offers him a snack :) | Oct 11 21:36 |
| AlbertoP | btw, do you know who Geeko is right?! | Oct 11 21:36 |
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| foobar__087 | So, to come back to my question. Could you please explain me how I was trolling? I was trying to be polite, not to insult anyone and so on. So all I "did" is that I don't share your point of ciew regarding the patent issue. Why is this trolling? | Oct 11 21:36 |
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| foobar__087 | s/ciew/view/ | Oct 11 21:36 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I know from personal experience that you are quite wrong. Please go away. | Oct 11 21:37 |
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| AlbertoP | Geeko: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jzb/2914139185/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimgris/2912355796/ :-) | Oct 11 21:38 |
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| schestowitz | schestowitz: I haven't no. I notice that Stephen Fry has just published one book chapter in his blog. | Oct 11 21:38 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma "I know from personal experience" isn't really what I would call "argumentation". Wrong regarding the patent issue / disagreeing with you or wrong with what? | Oct 11 21:38 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087: you seem to have come here to assist AlbertoP's position, but I could be wrong. You never answered my Q: which distro do you use? | Oct 11 21:39 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: let's take this really slowly, then. MS take a position on patents. You think they're wrong? You think that they're wasting their time? You think they're stupid? Please explain to me why they're stupid. | Oct 11 21:39 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, don't you like suse mascotte? :) | Oct 11 21:39 |
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| MinceR | i don't | Oct 11 21:40 |
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| schestowitz | Joe's Flickr album... big Geeko | Oct 11 21:40 |
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| MinceR | because i don't like suse either | Oct 11 21:40 |
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| AlbertoP | hehe right... | Oct 11 21:40 |
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| foobar__087 | schestowitz First of all I`m not here to support AlbertoP and, as I already told kentma before I happily use openSUSE on the desktop and CentOS on the server (which was why I was asking him before what problems he encountered). | Oct 11 21:40 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, hehe I'm trying to put my hands on one of those plushes...but hum, quite rare it seems, and not sold :\ | Oct 11 21:41 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I don't recall you saying anything to me about opensuse or centos. | Oct 11 21:41 |
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| schestowitz | He didn't | Oct 11 21:41 |
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| AlbertoP | I think we talked about that some time ago though :-? | Oct 11 21:42 |
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| schestowitz | Unless my XChat missed a strike, | Oct 11 21:42 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: that's what I thought... another one for the .ignore file. | Oct 11 21:42 |
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| schestowitz | *stroke | Oct 11 21:42 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma I thihnk they way they (MS) act is understandable (since it is a bussiness) but it doesn't affect me you or anyone else the slightest bit since their whole patent threat isn't based on any valid grounds but only fud. So I couldn't care less. | Oct 11 21:42 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma see above, I told you ;) | Oct 11 21:42 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, using opensuse is not an automatic "to be ignored", you know? | Oct 11 21:42 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: you think businesses have to be stupid, then? | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft FUD pattern: "Don't get me wrong, I use Linux on the servers, but it's not ready for desktop | it's just for servers | it's all command line | other" | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, fyi I've been using fedora, ubuntu, mandriva also...still nothing beats opensuse on the desktop for what I need. | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| MinceR | the way m$ acts is understandable -- they're evil assholes and this is the only thing they can do | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: I agree, foobar__087 is using all the classic fud lines. | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| MinceR | they know they can't compete based on the merits of their products as they have none. | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: using opensuse and coming to #opensuse does not make one wrong, but it can be a sign | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: and yes it affects us all. | Oct 11 21:43 |
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| AlbertoP | :) http://www.novell.com/linux/desktop/ | Oct 11 21:44 |
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| foobar__087 | schestowitz please "grep -i centos" on your log - its hard with that web client and it doesn't show times either. | Oct 11 21:44 |
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| schestowitz | Predudice is not good, but facts help telling apart foobar_65 and foob4r_32324i323 | Oct 11 21:44 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087: the logs are flushed every night | Oct 11 21:44 |
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| foobar__087 | er what? I'm foobar_087 | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: according to my log, you mentioned centos to MinceR, not to me. | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| *trmanco has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Oct 11 21:45 |
| foobar__087 | schestowitz I mean the current log since I'm in here for less then an hour under that name. | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: yes, I've checked, and you were speaking to someone else, not to me. | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| *trmanco (n=trmanco@bl8-234-43.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovell | Oct 11 21:45 |
| MinceR | that's a buffer, not a log | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma I'm sorry, then I mixed you up. | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| MinceR | it isn't written to disk | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: yes you did. What else do you mix up? | Oct 11 21:45 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma nothing? schestowitz & MinceR just claimed that I never said I would use openSUSE & CentOS which wasn't the case. | Oct 11 21:46 |
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| MinceR | when did i claim that? | Oct 11 21:46 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I told you that you were wrong. i was correct. Did you check? No, you didn't. I checked, and proved you wrong. What else do you not bother to check? | Oct 11 21:46 |
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| *trmanco has quit (Client Quit) | Oct 11 21:47 |
| foobar__087 | kentma I already said that this webclient is hard to read without an option to search the log. So please forgive me for mixing up your nicks, I hope you survive it. | Oct 11 21:48 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, they'll survive :-) | Oct 11 21:48 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: you were wrong. I told you, and you didn't accept it. what else are you wrong about? | Oct 11 21:48 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR Now, regarding those patents: In what way would that be different to the age old MS claim that the linux kernel violates ~290 patents? | Oct 11 21:49 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: in the way that a company that owns a distro lends weight to that claim | Oct 11 21:49 |
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| AlbertoP | from logs: | Oct 11 21:49 |
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| AlbertoP | ott 11 16:16:29 <AlbertoP>ehh I'm a bit older probably ^^ | Oct 11 21:49 |
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| AlbertoP | ott 11 16:16:31 <foobar__087>MinceR e.g - I'm pretty happy with opensuse on the desktop (cause I couldn't care less about that MS deal since IMHO it doesn't affect anyone) and CentOS on the server. | Oct 11 21:49 |
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| AlbertoP | ott 11 16:16:35 <schestowitz>I just assume everything works when it boots. | Oct 11 21:49 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma Yes, I mixed your nicks up, so I was wrong, so I was never right, so you were always right! Are you kidding me? | Oct 11 21:49 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: so what else are you wrong about? | Oct 11 21:50 |
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| MinceR | he's wrong about a lot of things | Oct 11 21:50 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, you know...we probably met the two most perfect humans in the world, and in the same chatroom! ;) | Oct 11 21:50 |
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| kentma | MinceR: Indeed so. His willingness to maintain a line in spite of being corrected was, to my mind, very telling about his approach to such issues. | Oct 11 21:50 |
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| schestowitz | Ars Technica must be playing Digg or something. News two days later and FP for just 3 paragraphs: http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.a... | Oct 11 21:50 |
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| foobar__087 | Nah, apparently we are wrong with everything cause I mixed kentma nick with MinceR nick. | Oct 11 21:51 |
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| schestowitz | Heh.'News': (2008-10-11) Macromedia Announces Flash Player For Linux! http://top40-charts.com/news/MP3-and-More/M... | Oct 11 21:51 |
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| kentma | MinceR: clearly, he sees nothing significant about being visibly mistaken, even having been corrected by more than one person, and refusing to accept the correction. | Oct 11 21:51 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, and you use opensuse, like me ;) | Oct 11 21:51 |
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| MinceR | kentma: it's just business as usual for him | Oct 11 21:51 |
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| kentma | MinceR: clearly, he's used to being corrected, and used to ignoring the corrections - hey, snap! | Oct 11 21:51 |
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| MinceR | :) | Oct 11 21:51 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma My willingness to maintain which line? I already addmitted that I mixed your nicks, sincerly appologized and totally fail to see where I have to addmit that I'm obviously wrong so please enlighten me. | Oct 11 21:52 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087: sorry, I missed that bit about CentOS. My bad. | Oct 11 21:52 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: go away, please. | Oct 11 21:52 |
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| foobar__087 | schestowitz no worries. | Oct 11 21:52 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, stop apologizing... he has nothing to say, so he just tries to attack you :) | Oct 11 21:52 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: he was quite wrong about to whom he was speaking - even after being corrected. | Oct 11 21:53 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, and you look quite hard to understand too :) | Oct 11 21:53 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma so I didn't say that I mixed you up with MinceR, yeah, whatever then ... | Oct 11 21:53 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: he's also happy to accept unsupported claims of liability as acceptable business practice. this is an unsavoury person, at best. | Oct 11 21:54 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR So where is the current patent threat different from the year old claims that the kernel itself violates various patents? | Oct 11 21:54 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: if you keep repeating that question, i'll keep pasting my answer to it. | Oct 11 21:54 |
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| MinceR | 235406 < MinceR> foobar__087: in the way that a company that owns a distro lends weight to that claim | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: stop this, foobar__087. how can there be a "current patent threat" - go away, please. | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: don't worry. The OpenSUSE expose themselves for the Microsoft apologists some of them have become. | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, hehe did you read the agreement? :) | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| MinceR | it's not really a threat though | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR please once more since that backlog here is a pita. | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| MinceR | it's FUD | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| schestowitz | It hurts them more than it does damage to our cause. | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: if you have no backlog, use your memory ;) | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: It's really sad, to my mind. There's really no need for this. | Oct 11 21:55 |
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| schestowitz | They also attack coverage of Microsoft dirty tricks in BN because they MUST kill the messenger to purify Novell's reputation. | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, right official documents are fud, your words are The Truth huh | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| MinceR | i mean, the patent claims aren't the thread, but that some people can be made to believe them. | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR Yes, so we agree on this. And further it goes like this: Since it is only FUD it is no ground for valid legal claims and therefore it doesn't affect me and I couldn't care less. | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: it's way way way too late to purify Novell's rep, I'm afraid. | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: FUD is FUD, the truth is the truth and you're wrong. | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| AlbertoP | haha | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| AlbertoP | right | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| AlbertoP | this is the foundation of a productive discussion! | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: it's no ground for legal claims but it's ground for some people to be afraid of legal claims. | Oct 11 21:56 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: facts are the foundation of a productive discussion. | Oct 11 21:57 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: you have yet to present any facts. | Oct 11 21:57 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: it's not about you, is it. Unless you think that Microsoft are truly stupd - something you keep ignoring in your fud-pushing here. | Oct 11 21:57 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, oh no, you're are the one thinking to a cospiracy, so you're the one who needs to provide evidence. | Oct 11 21:57 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: which i already have. | Oct 11 21:57 |
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| schestowitz | Linux Foundation is hiring: http://jobs.cmswire.com/job/629/ | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR Yes. So it far from a nice bussiness practic but basically its the peoples problem if they believe this bullshit. Point being there is no threat since there is no ground to base this threat on. | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| MinceR | what is it with you trolls that you can only keep asking the same questions over and over? | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| AlbertoP | you provided links to something that can be defined an opinion, not a fact | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| foobar__087 | *it is far from being a | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: so you are saying that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| AlbertoP | you related that to MS-N agreement, which is not proved by those documents | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: as long as enough people believe this bullshit it can cause problems | Oct 11 21:58 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: and since novell is assisting microsoft in spreading these lies, novell is doing the community harm. | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: and that can't be excused. | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, do you understand that the "patent protection" is a really small part of the agreement? :) | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| schestowitz | They put it in brochures and all. | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: it's an important part | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| schestowitz | Also the patent BS, which is invalid in the EU when they disseminate it. | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, oh not really...considering it covers 2-3 things | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i don't care what bullshit they're trying to hide it in | Oct 11 21:59 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: novell is still helping microsoft in their deals and they can't be forgiven for that. | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: yes, fight for Hyper-V, for OOXML, for patents. | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, 3 is worse than 1 | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, right...better to feed the fud. Don't you think that your activity is helping them even more than N? | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| schestowitz | Everything Novell agreed to is a fight on FOSS | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: if novell was honest about promoting linux, they wouldn't make such pacts. | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| schestowitz | In exchange it gets a life$$$line. | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: what? | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, no, hyper-v is not involved at all, at least not the open version | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR Sure, if people believe this FUD the perhaps buy into it and get screwed, we agree on this. My whole point just is that if you don't believe them you there is no reason you should / have to care what they say since they have no ground to base there claims on. That is all I'm saying, agreed? | Oct 11 22:00 |
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| schestowitz | "Here, Novell, here's some money... now go kick Mr. Ubuntu in the crotch" | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| AlbertoP | OOXML support is provided as a _separate_ plugin | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| AlbertoP | so there is no injection in code, which is what worries OSS guys | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: your understanding of this is simplified and flaws. | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: so, you're saying that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| schestowitz | You guys just spread misinfirmation here. | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, right, better your vision, which is distorted and complex? | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| AlbertoP | but of course, without your vision, you won't exist LOL | Oct 11 22:01 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: it's very simple. | Oct 11 22:02 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: unfortunately, business isn't affected only by what _i_ believe. | Oct 11 22:02 |
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| schestowitz | Simple visions: there is a real war on 'terror', ISO is reputable and operable.... and so on... | Oct 11 22:02 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, it doesn't seem so. If you exclude the 14 guys here, judging from the comments you have on your site... | Oct 11 22:03 |
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| schestowitz | OpenSUSE vision: Novell is out leader. All bow to Novell and its new friend. They know what they do. | Oct 11 22:03 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, that's a change in topic | Oct 11 22:03 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: yes, i'm sure everyone not present agrees with you in everything | Oct 11 22:03 |
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| *MinceR facepalms | Oct 11 22:03 |
| AlbertoP | schestowitz, I didn't say anything about ISO and OOXML standardization. | Oct 11 22:03 |
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| MinceR | another change in topic: | Oct 11 22:03 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: how did you manage to be so stupid? were you born that way or did you receive training? | Oct 11 22:04 |
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| kentma | MinceR: a lot of very good bribery ought to have done the trick, I would say. | Oct 11 22:04 |
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| MinceR | as for ooxml -- guess what, novell is pushing ooxml too | Oct 11 22:04 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, again thanks. I'm very happy of your compliments :P | Oct 11 22:04 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, ah Novell is pushing OOXML? | Oct 11 22:04 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i didn't know 'stupid' was a compliment in your cult, but it makes sense | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: yes | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| AlbertoP | oh god, this is new | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: miguel de icaza keeps saying how great it is | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, everything negative said by you sounds good ^^ | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR Agreed again. But IMHO this quite depends on the country - e.g. in Europe they couldn't care less but in the USA I can understand if they shiffer in fear since their patent law is one of the most moronic I ever encountered which even could make this possible. So the real problem is more or less some retarded patent law in the USA. | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: that doesn't excuse novell | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, precisely | Oct 11 22:05 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: you still haven't answered the question: do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:06 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: even if the means used aren't entirely effective, it's obvious they mean harm to the community they claim to want to live off. | Oct 11 22:06 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma No, after the last stuff I prefer ignoring you since talking to you is kinda pointless, sorry. | Oct 11 22:06 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: also note that people outside the usa are affected if the main developer/supporter of a product they're using is sued because of patent infringement | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, do you understand that "harming the community" for Novell means harming itself? :) | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: so yes, this FUD works everywhere | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: Novell is pushing OOXML | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | Sun told me. | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: no, it means that novell isn't part of the community | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR you mean cause they advertise "the peace of mind" or "patentprotection" iirc? | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | They have done this for a long time | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: it's probably easiest for you to avoid the question, I can understand that. | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, proofs? | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: novell is a parasite | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | .Mcirosoft 'bribed' them to. | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: yes | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | Even IBM complained to me. | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: would you care to ask foobar__087 if he believes that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | Not to mention smaller companies that need ODF. | Oct 11 22:07 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft pays Novell to help it escape the mud | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, right, paying for a lot of the best community developers. It has to be a new definition of parasite. | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: running away won't help you... | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| kentma | going away, would, however, help us here. | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| schestowitz | And Novell, being seen as "open" and having access to Linus/FOSS groups/panels does _a LOT_ of damage | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: well, keep ignoring the patent deal then. | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| schestowitz | Just watch how they promoted .NET this past week. | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: are they being dishonest or not? | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| schestowitz | They call it "Mono" | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and keep ignoring the ooxml advertisement. | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| schestowitz | It's a fight against Java (GPL ,and mature) | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: also keep ignoring the mono patent trap. | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma cause that question (Is MS dishonest) iirc is a joke. Are they spreading FUD? Sure. Can you sue them therefore? Probably not. So it is a moralic question which depends on oneself. I wouldn't base my bussiness on such grounds but that simply doesn't matter. | Oct 11 22:08 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: or will you leave? go to a suitable group for your paid-for viewpoint? | Oct 11 22:09 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, you're making precise accusations and citing witnesses. So please, post them. Make them public. I will believe to that. | Oct 11 22:09 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:09 |
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| kentma | answer the question! | Oct 11 22:09 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: no you won't | Oct 11 22:09 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: you refuse to believe anything that would imply that novell aren't saints | Oct 11 22:09 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: still no answer? | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: you've proven that already | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: foobar__087 is a troll here. I spend my time doing other things. I never kick anyone out though. | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma I'm sorry to say it this way but are you frigging retarded? I just answered you: "I wouldn't base my bussiness on such grounds". (as in I don't agree with them and don't think that this is the way to go). | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, again, you don't really know enough about me... | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | The door is open though. | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: do you believe that m$ is being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: cut the crap | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: still no answer? It's a simple enough question - are Microsfot being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:10 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I didn't ask whether you agreed wtih them, since it's clear that you do - I want to know whether you believe that they're being dishonest or not.. please answer the question. | Oct 11 22:11 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, you're the one attacking everyone not agreeing with you without providing anything to support your statements. Come back with something serious and official, not blog links please, and we'll talk again. | Oct 11 22:11 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: I don't post private E-mails in ln public. | Oct 11 22:11 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: no, i'm attacking the novell fanboys who keep saying how great novell is for our community. | Oct 11 22:11 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and i'm attacking microsoft who have done more harm to the IT industry than anyone else. | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| schestowitz | Your insistence, however, says a lot about the desperation in argumentation. | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, so you should not make those accusation in public... | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR I agree then that advertising "the peace of mind that patent protection gives" is pretty bad style but again, it doesn't affect me or anyone else IMHO. So I can understand why you are upset but I just don't think that is affects anyone. | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| AlbertoP | because they are unsupported | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you think that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and i'm attacking novell who are assisting m$ in that for short term gains, ignoring that they'll likely be killed by m$ when they're not considered useful any more. | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: it's only "bad style"? | Oct 11 22:12 |
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| kentma | MinceR: not "dishonest", then? :-) | Oct 11 22:13 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: spreading lies that harm your customers is "bad style", nothing more? | Oct 11 22:13 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: they need to satisfy investors short-term | Oct 11 22:13 |
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| schestowitz | They dive heads first.. | Oct 11 22:13 |
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| MinceR | they should get investors that care about their business then. | Oct 11 22:13 |
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| schestowitz | They should have liaised with Red Hat. | Oct 11 22:14 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: companies which attack their own customers are typically doing something wrong. | Oct 11 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | RH too told me that when I protested in the mailing lists in 2006. | Oct 11 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | Just like Yahoo and Google joining forced. | Oct 11 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | They could sort things out with Red Hat instead of signing an anti-Red Hat charter. | Oct 11 22:14 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: a question for you: do you think novell is honestly trying to do good to the linux community while spreading lies that harm it? | Oct 11 22:15 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR they don't harm their customers but run an advertising campaign I wouldn't agree with. Nevertheless it isn't something people have to care for if they don't buy into the FUD MS is spreading for years. So, again, it boils down the the crappy american patent law. | Oct 11 22:15 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: that advertising campaign harms their customers | Oct 11 22:15 |
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| schestowitz | Andreas: "A final update for today: The tracker is now up as well." | Oct 11 22:15 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR in which way? | Oct 11 22:16 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you think that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:16 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: a linux distributor saying "we're infringing on microsoft patents and most people haven't paid for that so they can be sued"? i wonder how | Oct 11 22:16 |
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| kentma | MinceR: well, it's all about honesty, isn't it? | Oct 11 22:16 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: they blame 'the system', but never Microsoft. | Oct 11 22:16 |
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| MinceR | well, novell is certainly lacking in the honesty department. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| schestowitz | The AlexH troll uses the same tactics to defend Microsoft without truly 'defending' them explicitly. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: they're spinning a line, I hope they're paid enough to have left their morals at the door when they came in. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| schestowitz | Another technique is attacking the 'equally bad' other companies. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| schestowitz | IBM is a favourite target. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| schestowitz | Sometimes it's evil Apple and Google. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, well, that's complex. I know Novell is doing good in a lot of fields for the community. There are a lot of Novell contributions upstream in GNOME, KDE, X, ALSA and other projects. Also Novell is offering a very good infrastructure for packaging to all distros (buildservice), and they opened various projects. I think this is real value for the community. Do I think they do always right? Well, no. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR afaik Novell never stated that Linux violates _any_ MS patents but merely says _IF_ you buy our product MS wont sue you _IF_ it gets proven that Linux violates any MS patents. Which is a mighty big difference. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| MinceR | it would be a challenge to find 'equally bad' other companies. | Oct 11 22:17 |
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| MinceR | perhaps crApple would fit the bill. | Oct 11 22:18 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you think that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:18 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: guess what, other distributors manage to do good without doing harm. can't be that difficult. | Oct 11 22:18 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft uses patent FUD? Blame the USPTO? Microsoft corrupts ISO? Blame the ISO rules... | Oct 11 22:18 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, I think they should work harder to make opensuse community grow, but that's work in progress. OpenSUSE is young and is growing strong, with a lot of new projects and ideas. | Oct 11 22:18 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and how do you reconcile that with the obvious harm they're doing? | Oct 11 22:18 |
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| kentma | MinceR: these chaps don't care about the harm. they care only about themselves. | Oct 11 22:19 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: and how would that work if they didn't imply that linux violated m$ patents? | Oct 11 22:19 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087: it's good cop, bad cop. Novell lets SweatyB do the bad cop role. Don't be blind. | Oct 11 22:19 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: please try to make some sense at last. | Oct 11 22:19 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, I don't think that "harm". I think they just opened their eyes and want Linux to progress at a decent speed instead than waiting for it to "win" who knows how. | Oct 11 22:19 |
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| kentma | they could probably find jobs in a bank somewhere, on the investment side, ideally. | Oct 11 22:19 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: nad how will linux progress at a decent speed if businesses believe they can be sued by m$ at any time? | Oct 11 22:19 |
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| MinceR | s/nad/and/ | Oct 11 22:20 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, actually linux is not that affected by the deal. Linux adoption is growing, and didn't slow down as a consequence of that. | Oct 11 22:20 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: or perhaps you believe that suse is the only way? | Oct 11 22:20 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: it didn't slow down because the attempt at FUD failed | Oct 11 22:20 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: that doesn't excuse novell for supporting the FUD campaign | Oct 11 22:21 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: in the same vein, SCO was not damaging because Linux kept growing. | Oct 11 22:21 |
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| AlbertoP | Linux will be able to grow thanks to a better compatibility, and this will happen thanks to a better format support, thanks to mono (look at companies using it, and using linux thanks to it, instead of windows), and so on... | Oct 11 22:21 |
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| schestowitz | And rain is good... well, good for the garden maybe. | Oct 11 22:21 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: better compatibility will happen once companies start caring about real standards | Oct 11 22:21 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, what's your job, if I may ask? | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: brainwashed. | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, no, realist | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| kentma | MinceR: don't get fooled by the standards game - open-source is the solution here... | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| schestowitz | *LOL* at "better format support" | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: interoperability is not something you agree to develop, it's a natural consequence of developing good specifications, publishing them and following them | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i'm a software developers | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| MinceR | s/s$// | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, right. I agree about specifications. But in the meanwhile what? You just wait? | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| foobar__087 | schestowitz MinceR As said, it works because people buy into the "Linux violates our patents" FUD MS spreads but you wont find any source where Novell admits that Linux violates MS patents afaik. | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| MinceR | kentma: standards can help too | Oct 11 22:22 |
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| MinceR | kentma: as long as they're real standards and they're followed | Oct 11 22:23 |
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| kentma | MinceR: mostly not... they're usually subject to "interests". | Oct 11 22:23 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: novell admitted that when it made that deal with m$ | Oct 11 22:23 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: no matter how hard you try to ignore that, it's still true. | Oct 11 22:23 |
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| AlbertoP | My point is quite simple: ODF is being adopted, but there will be a long transition phase, and people will still use MS formats. So it's better to be able to work with them too. | Oct 11 22:23 |
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| schestowitz | /What/ format? | Oct 11 22:23 |
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| AlbertoP | Mono, on the other hand, is subtracting users to MS, like it or not. | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| schestowitz | As a history lesson, there was only ODF. | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: people are already able to work with them, no thanks to m$ or novell | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, oh really? | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| schestowitz | Then Microsoft paid Novell hundreds of millions to help OOXML | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| AlbertoP | with openoffice right? | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and ooxml doesn't help with that | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| MinceR | yes, with openoffice and koffice and gnome office | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| schestowitz | It did the same elsewhere. Novell turned into a Microsoft mini-me | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| AlbertoP | well, maybe people needs to have real importers :) | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| schestowitz | It also assisted Microsoft against the EU rulings. | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: ooxml would only werve to make things worse | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| MinceR | s/wer/ser/ | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| schestowitz | Importers? From what? | Oct 11 22:24 |
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| schestowitz | We're talking abotu 2006 | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR if that is really the case then you or schestowitz surely can point me to an url / document that proofs this, which I would really appreciate since it would be entirely new to me and would make me reconsider my point of view. | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| schestowitz | People could get Ooo and open .doc/xls files. | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| schestowitz | Then save as ODF | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, OOXML is being adopted...here in US I receive docx quite often | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: that's the sad part | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, I _need_ to open them to work | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: well, maybe novell standardized on it | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| schestowitz | Novell needed to create competition to ODF because Microsoft FORCED it to as PART OF THE DEAL (sorry about caps, I don't yell) | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| AlbertoP | and well, I still use linux, thanks to the N plugin...I like that? No. But I still can use Linux | Oct 11 22:25 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: 2008, not 2006 | Oct 11 22:26 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, no really. Novell is not pushing OOXML as much as you think. | Oct 11 22:26 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: yes, as a good novell fanboy, you can still use it until you finally crush it with your big pal steve ballmer! | Oct 11 22:26 |
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| MinceR | then you can finally ignore the whole thing and go back to your beloved windows | Oct 11 22:26 |
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| MinceR | and perhaps put netware on it | Oct 11 22:26 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: they're pushing it a lot more than they should | Oct 11 22:26 |
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| kentma | it's hard to understand why the Novell guys don't just use Windows and be done. | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| MinceR | perhaps windows isn't ready for the desktop yet | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: they do. | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| schestowitz | Many of them use Windows. | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, they just wrote the plugin...nothing else | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| schestowitz | It's a bizarre company | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: then why come here? there's no need. | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and miguel publicly said how great it us | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| schestowitz | SUSE is like a separate division located in Germany and some in other places. | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| schestowitz | And then there's the .NET club. | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| MinceR | made a couple headlines | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, they develop FOR windows...it's normal they use windows LOL | Oct 11 22:27 |
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| MinceR | (even if along the lines of 'miguel de icaza says something idiotic again') | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| AlbertoP | ZenWorks is a multiplatform environment...you know | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| MinceR | in the m$ sense? | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| foobar__087 | Sorry to repeat this but I'm really interested in this: MinceR if that is really the case then you or schestowitz surely can point me to an url / document that proofs this, which I would really appreciate since it would be entirely new to me and would make me reconsider my point of view. | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| schestowitz | NAC from Novell is Windows-only | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, SUSE is in germany and in provo either | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| MinceR | (that is, multiplatform is what works on all our platforms -- all 1) | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| schestowitz | New product from Novell... better buy some Vista auickly! | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: proves what? | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| schestowitz | *quickly | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you believe that Micrsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:28 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, link to what? | Oct 11 22:29 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR where Novell addmitted that Linux violates MS patents. | Oct 11 22:29 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I'm still waiting for you to stop avoiding this question. | Oct 11 22:29 |
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| AlbertoP | foobar__087, it never did LOOOOL | Oct 11 22:29 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: still waiting... tick tick tick | Oct 11 22:29 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: well? | Oct 11 22:30 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR not as in that their product offers protection _IF_ it gets proofen that Linux vioolates MS patents but where they say that is does. | Oct 11 22:30 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: yet they were sure enough of it to pay for protection | Oct 11 22:30 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: ahh, interesting - so you now believe that Linux might violate MS patents, then? | Oct 11 22:30 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: and to suggest others to do so | Oct 11 22:30 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: while ballmer produced no proof | Oct 11 22:30 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma Sorry, but I gave you the answer 2 times quite some time ago. If you can't read I can't help you. | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: on what basis are you making this claim foobar__087? | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: you have never addressed my questino. | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: http://www.novell.com/news/press/microsoft_and_nove... | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: there's the link you wanted. | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: I'm still waiting for you to address the question, foobar__087 | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma I didn't say this so whatever ... | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| MinceR | "so that customers can benefit from the use of an interoperable version of Linux with patent coverage" | Oct 11 22:31 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: or do you really believe, as you appear to have stated above, that Linux really *might* infringe MS patents? | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: which is it, then? | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, and where do you read they admit Linux infringes patents? | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: the part i've quoted | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| AlbertoP | oh right | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: ? | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma Which part of "I didn't say this" don't you understand. | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| foobar__087 | ? | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: or perhaps you can imagine a need for "patent coverage" in the case where there's no infringement? | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: you make foobarmer sweat | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, your mouse does, your icons does...practically everything _might_ infringe a patent in the US system... | Oct 11 22:32 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, oh yes | Oct 11 22:33 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: m$ infringes on patents too | Oct 11 22:33 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: go on - answer the question! You can't avoid it forever! | Oct 11 22:33 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and guess what would happen if they started suing | Oct 11 22:33 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, it's worse to have an accusation for that than being guilty...it lasts for ages, costs money and never ends | Oct 11 22:33 |
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| MinceR | that's another reason why there's no need for "patent coverage" | Oct 11 22:33 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: it's a simple enough question to answer... I wonder why he keeps avoiding it. Do you think he might be less than honest himself? | Oct 11 22:33 |
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| AlbertoP | that's why MS doesn't sue...it's a lot easier to feed the fear | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: if accusation is bad, why did novell support it | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| MinceR | ? | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| MinceR | yes, it's a lot easier to feed the fear when you know you're lying | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma How did I say / addmitted that Linux might violate MS patents? I said there advertisement is based on offering protection _IF_ it gets proofen that Linux violates MS patents which is entirely hypothetically. | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR Thanks, I'll read this. | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: so, how can supporting such lies be excused? | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, I don't support the patent coverage (and I didn't say that I do anywhere), but the agreement is not only that, actually it's a lot more | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: Why can't you answer the question, foobar__087? Do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest or not? | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| schestowitz | Novell loves the FUD | Oct 11 22:34 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: how can any self-respecting company that claims to support linux support such lies? | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: what's the problem here? | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: it's a simple enough question. | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| schestowitz | To Novell, Microsoft FUD is increase in business. Let me find a linkage. | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: why are you not using a real name? | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| MinceR | increase in business to the expense of other linux distros | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| schestowitz | 2007: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/05/19/n... | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| schestowitz | It has external links | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: come on - answer the question! | Oct 11 22:35 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, Novell wanted to cooperate with MS for the technical aspects, that's all. The patent deal is an addition, and it is very common when working together on something. | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: if that's what they wanted, they wouldn't have made the patent deal | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: flase. | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| schestowitz | Hovsepian contradicts yoy. | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: it's not a mandatory addition | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: well? | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| AlbertoP | If you want to build castles on it, feel free to do that...oh I forgot, you already did! Without that your whole site would not exist and you would be unknown! | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| schestowitz | He said something along the lines of customer wanting patent issues of the tables | Oct 11 22:36 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: meanwhile you can claim that novell is a saint and ignore all the harm they're doing. | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | Which may be a lie because Red Hat did fine and people in the business never heard such stories. | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| MinceR | willingly. | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, schestowitz since when you're experts of industrial partnerships and deals? :) | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: well, we evidently know more about them than you do | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: he also claimed that MS might be proven correct and that Novell were offering protection in this case. | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | IOW, Novell lies when it makes the interop pitch | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, no I don't ignore the "potential consequences". I just think that the risk is a lot smaller than the consequences of not cooperating. | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | It wanted to, among other things, use its patents for some exclusionary assurance. | Oct 11 22:37 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: so everyone should just avoid the risks and pay ballmer. | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| schestowitz | And use that as a weapon against its rival that it envies like mad -- Red Hat | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: or, even better, just buy windows and avoid the risks. | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, it doesn't see so. All your statements are at best opinions, at worse unsupported claims to attract the attention. | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: we're all waiting here, baited breath - what's the answer? | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: you've declared the facts i've presented and proven with references opinions, because you can't stand the facts. | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| kentma | s/baited/bated | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, don't worry, I have also windows :) | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: have fun in that little dream world of yours | Oct 11 22:38 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i was sure of that | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| AlbertoP | hehe right | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: well? | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| AlbertoP | you're sure of everything right? | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: both spellings work. :-0) | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: hehe - yeah :-) | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i didn't have to talk about things i'm not sure of so i didn't. | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: are you going to answer kentma's question, ever? | Oct 11 22:39 |
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| foobar__087 | Sorry MinceR, but there is no addmittion (correct english word?) that Linux violates MS patents but simply "The patent cooperation agreement enables Microsoft and Novell to give customers assurance of protection against patent infringement claims.". So, basically MS promises not to sue Novell customers _IF_ it gets proofen (without proof there is no ground) that Linux violates MS patents. Which is exactly what I said earlier. | Oct 11 22:40 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: implied: and it's likely enough that novell is willing to pay for it | Oct 11 22:40 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, the fact, the only one easily proven here, is that you're maintaining a site full of claims without a proof just to feel important. The rest can be easily judged, because we are not a bunch of stupids, as you would like to believe. | Oct 11 22:40 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: so here is the second conundrum. clearly you believe that MS have a point, otherwise you wouldn't even suggest that "assurance of protection" was worthwhile. | Oct 11 22:41 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: despite the facts that 1) the patents were never mentioned and 2) no proof was shown of the infringement | Oct 11 22:41 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR fyi, I did already 2 times so I fail to see the point in repeating myself: from a moralic point, sure but from a legal point not since I doubt that one can sue them for this. | Oct 11 22:41 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: so, go on - are MS being dishonest or not? | Oct 11 22:41 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: also that 3) microsoft itself is kept at bay by patents all the same, so they wouldn't sue anyway | Oct 11 22:41 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: please answer the question! | Oct 11 22:41 |
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| zoobab | is MS sues, it is via a proxy | Oct 11 22:41 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: actually i'm not maintaining the site | Oct 11 22:42 |
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| AlbertoP | actually MS is more famous for being sued and pay fees than for suing others ^^ | Oct 11 22:42 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and if you continue to act like an idiot, i will continue to believe that you are one. | Oct 11 22:42 |
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| kentma | zoobab: quite possibly correct, but I'm trying to establish if foobar__087 believes that MS are being dishonest or not. He's refusing to answer the question. | Oct 11 22:42 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR agreements not to sue eatchother are sadly common bussiness in the states - just look how my patent pools there are. All major players have some and participate in some. I agree it is sad but there is no way around it apprently in the US to protect oneself from patent trolls. | Oct 11 22:43 |
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| MinceR | actually patent licenses are common business | Oct 11 22:43 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, as I said, keep judging me personally, and I will keep considering your insults a compliment. :) | Oct 11 22:43 |
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| MinceR | "covenant not to sue" was merely novell's way of circumventing the wording of GPLv2 | Oct 11 22:43 |
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| MinceR | that's why GPLv3 was worded differently. | Oct 11 22:43 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: do you believe that MS are being dishonest or not? | Oct 11 22:43 |
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| MinceR | (it also goes to show that novell doesn't only hold contempt for the community it lives off, but also for the license that allows it to do its business) | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| AlbertoP | yes, that's why GPL2 is still used, and projects are moved to MIT/X11... | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| AlbertoP | :) | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| kentma | MinceR: it's happy to live off fear. | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| MinceR | novell hates free/open source software and is all too willing to try to live off it | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| MinceR | as i've said before, novell is a parasite. | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| foobar__087 | kentma I answered that question now 3 times. 2 times to you and once to MinceR - so either read it or come up with a new quesiton or stfu. kthxbye | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, right and ubuntu? | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| kentma | MinceR: a parasite which lives off fear | Oct 11 22:44 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: when will you answer the question, foobar__087? | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, do we want to discuss about ubuntu contributions to Linux? :) | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: fuck off. go back to #opensuse and hug some of your fellow cultists for comfort. | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: why do you keep avoiding it? | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, it's short: 0.001% | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: you mean the contributions some novell-funded asshole said didn't exist but was proven wrong? | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR excuse me? | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| AlbertoP | Greg...oh no, he works for Novell, pointed them out | Oct 11 22:45 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: why won't you answer the question? there is no excuse for you, I'm afraid. | Oct 11 22:46 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, he was not proven wrong at all...he forgot to count ONE contribution LOL | Oct 11 22:46 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: no, it wasn't one | Oct 11 22:46 |
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| AlbertoP | still, the % doesn't change | Oct 11 22:46 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: wrong. Microsoft sued over patents. | Oct 11 22:46 |
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| schestowitz | Aiming for embargo even,. | Oct 11 22:46 |
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| AlbertoP | re-read | Oct 11 22:46 |
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| AlbertoP | I said it's not very famous for suing | Oct 11 22:47 |
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| AlbertoP | I didn't say it didn't sue | Oct 11 22:47 |
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| AlbertoP | anyway...I'm off to real life | Oct 11 22:47 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR are you seriously going down the "fuck route" now because I pointed out that the document you showed as proof doesn't addmit that Linux violates MS patents? | Oct 11 22:47 |
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| foobar__087 | *fuck off route | Oct 11 22:48 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: why won't you answer the question? Is it too complicated? | Oct 11 22:48 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: read what you've said to me and perhaps this time you'll understand why. | Oct 11 22:49 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: who do you work for? | Oct 11 22:49 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: protip: "stfu" and "kthxbye" | Oct 11 22:49 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: so now that you've said goodbye to us, you might as well get lost. | Oct 11 22:49 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, you know...people don't need to be paid to have opinions in disagreement with yours. It is so easy! :) | Oct 11 22:49 |
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| kentma | MinceR: trolls always have different rules for themselves. | Oct 11 22:49 |
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| MinceR | i know | Oct 11 22:49 |
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| schestowitz | foobar__087: who are you? | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: are you going to be honest about anything? | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| schestowitz | I am Roy.You know me. | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| zoobab | Microsoft still see the patent as positive, even if they are the number one company to be sued, ask yourself why | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| schestowitz | Be polite. Did you momma call you FooBar? | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| zoobab | Microsoft still see the patent system as positive, even if they are the number one company to be sued, ask yourself why | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: that document together with novell's behavior and the fact that it happened soon after ballmer's claims does admit that | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| kentma | zoobab: a desire to commit suicide perhaps shouldn't be discounted... | Oct 11 22:50 |
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| schestowitz | It's Crocodile tears. | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: when are you going to answer my question? | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| foobar__087 | MinceR 1. told you my answer to kentmas question 2. I said that patent agreements are pretty common between all major players in the US and 3. I told kentma once again that I answered his question already but I never insulted you in any way. | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| schestowitz | All the patent lobbyists use that to say "it's good for small companies" | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| kentma | foobar__087: you have *never* answered my question. | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| MinceR | zoobab: it's because the patent system raises the barrier to entry and m$ is scared shitless of having to compete. | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| schestowitz | Small companies as in trolls and their origin'genesis. | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| MinceR | because they know they can't. | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| *benJIman wants to know how he can get paid to troll on IRC. | Oct 11 22:51 |
| kentma | foobar__087: do you believe that MS are being dishonest? | Oct 11 22:51 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: afaict you never really answered the question | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| kentma | benJIman: I know what you mean - it's amazing that anyone would do what foobar__087 is doing. | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| AlbertoP | Novell has to be veeeeery rich to pay all these trolls eh?! | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| MinceR | foobar__087: all you said that it was "bad style", not whether it was honest or not. | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| AlbertoP | kentma, no no it's amazing someone does what boycottnovell does...really. | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| schestowitz | Nathan Myhrvold, Microsoft patent troll: ""Intellectual property is the next software." | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: yes, because that money is coming out of ballmer's pocket | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| schestowitz | Can't make good software? Then reinvent software biz | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| schestowitz | Didn't Microsoft already reinvest s/w? | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: someone does because someone has the interests of the it industry in mind | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| schestowitz | Letter to hobbyists if you know what I mean... | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| AlbertoP | the question is: how the hell do you have a life if you write, chat, blog so much? Do you work? | Oct 11 22:52 |
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| schestowitz | Can't compete, then subvert the rules | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: um, what are you doing right now? | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, I come here once ever century ^^ | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| schestowitz | Send the BSA and IDC to the EU to lobby politicians for RAND clauses with patents and all... | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: MinceR: see if you can get foobar__087 to be honest about something before he goes... I'm off - c ya! | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| MinceR | kentma: i can't | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, boycottnovell has a huge number of posts everyday | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| kentma | MinceR: :-) | Oct 11 22:53 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i think it will until the problem it's exposing goes away. | Oct 11 22:54 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, hehe well, I doubt it will go away so soon :) | Oct 11 22:54 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: actually, m$ is already dying | Oct 11 22:54 |
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| schestowitz | I write the stuff fast, that's all. | Oct 11 22:54 |
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| *kentma has quit ("Leaving.") | Oct 11 22:55 |
| schestowitz | After 3 years doing that type of stuff. | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: and it will take novell with itself if novell doesn't die by that time | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: dying is a strong word, but it's falling apart. | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| schestowitz | The evidence you have is also the departure of its managers. | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| AlbertoP | MinceR, you can dream of it :) | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| foobar__087 | Ah well, I have to run but I`m looking forward to continue this discussion. | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| schestowitz | Just the crazy man remains in the ship yelping. | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| AlbertoP | Novell survived to MS more than once ;) | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| foobar__087 | Good night & take care. | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: i can live in it. but you'll have to settle for a dream. | Oct 11 22:55 |
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| *foobar__087 has quit ("http://irc2go.com/") | Oct 11 22:55 |
| MinceR | AlbertoP: so go hug your ballmer plushie. | Oct 11 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: with Novell's attitude.. yes... Novell would rather Microsoft stayed. | Oct 11 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | To Novell, Microsoft dominance would work well for now. | Oct 11 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | Novell lags in the server, the desktop and Netware is dying too. Same with GroupWise. | Oct 11 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | Novell is a follower... of Microsoft now. | Oct 11 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | Hoping to get 1-2% of the leftovers of Microsoft for a living. | Oct 11 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | Much like the fish to cling on to the sharks for some leftovers. | Oct 11 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | If Novell can empower Microsoft through Hyper-V, ..NET, OOXML etc, then it's 'percentage' is likely yo be more decent. | Oct 11 22:57 |
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| AlbertoP | hehe right, because the linux market instead is made of huge % | Oct 11 22:57 |
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| AlbertoP | lool | Oct 11 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | *its | Oct 11 22:57 |
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| AlbertoP | let's continue another time...had to go running | Oct 11 22:58 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: protip: saying "lol" a lot doesn't prove your points, however weak they might be. | Oct 11 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | AlbertoP: glid you laugh at Linux. | Oct 11 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | Says a lot about you. | Oct 11 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | I saw this some weeks ago in the stuff you write. | Oct 11 22:58 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, I don't laugh at linux. I laugh at your data.. | Oct 11 22:58 |
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| AlbertoP | don't interpret | Oct 11 22:58 |
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| MinceR | AlbertoP: actually what you said does mean you laugh at linux | Oct 11 22:59 |
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| schestowitz | As Jose_X wrote yesterday, Novell and those other cronies loves spreading the impression that Everything Microsoft is inevitabkle. | Oct 11 22:59 |
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| AlbertoP | oh I forgot, again, if you don't do that, you don't blog :) | Oct 11 22:59 |
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| MinceR | well, once we did have Everything Microsoft | Oct 11 22:59 |
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| MinceR | and it wasn't pretty | Oct 11 22:59 |
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| schestowitz | Well, Novell still programs with IE only. | Oct 11 22:59 |
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| MinceR | but it's going away | Oct 11 22:59 |
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| AlbertoP | Oo | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| schestowitz | ActiveX and all. Novell shop requires that you use IE, promoting an IE-only Web again. | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, oh this is is new! | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| AlbertoP | oh really? | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| schestowitz | Don't forget... NETWARE runs under Windows. | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| AlbertoP | do you know I bough there? | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| AlbertoP | and I used firefox? | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| AlbertoP | from suse? | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| schestowitz | Put Linux and desktops and voila! Number one cash cow dies (Netware) | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| MinceR | netware was dying anyway | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| MinceR | partly because it sucked | Oct 11 23:00 |
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| schestowitz | Gradually. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Like Microsoft Office. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| MinceR | partly because windows (and everything else) did what it did already. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| AlbertoP | schestowitz, try before speaking...it will improve your knowledge :) | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Sales of which decline of course. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Some people are not aware of this. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| MinceR | novell had a chance to start dealing with real, workable technology | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| MinceR | they blew it | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Well, it's a dilemma. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| MinceR | they became a microsoft subsidiary instead. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Disruption situation. | Oct 11 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | They must keep the cash cows alive while switching. Same dilemma as MS. | Oct 11 23:02 |
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| MinceR | the new cash cow was already alive when they bought suse | Oct 11 23:02 |
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| schestowitz | To Microsoft it's the Web mainly. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/02/11/l... | Oct 11 23:02 |
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| MinceR | they could have bundled netware with it if they needed to | Oct 11 23:02 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: charging for it is harder. | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| MinceR | of course, suse not sucking so much would have helped | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | They have competition. | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | They don't like competing | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | They were spoiled with the Netware monopoly. | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| MinceR | i thought novell was used to competition | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: yes, from dirty MS tricks. | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | WordPerfect, AD, etc. | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | But they don't learn. | Oct 11 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | They sleep with the enemy and they'll wake up with a geeko at the back one day. | Oct 11 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | Very big Geeko. With big teeth. | Oct 11 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | "No free lunch" FUD from IDG: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/articl... | Oct 11 23:12 |
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| MinceR | i've learnt to ignore idg long ago | Oct 11 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | Charles Babcock has always been a cock, but his FUD is now spreading to other 'concerned' readers: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=282 | Oct 11 23:14 |
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| schestowitz | Leading back to DisinformationWeek, of course. | Oct 11 23:14 |
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| *PetoKraus (n=Peter@cpc4-broo2-0-0-cust1012.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Oct 11 23:24 |
| AlbertoP | <MinceR> they could have bundled netware with it if they needed to --> they did / do ^^ | Oct 11 23:28 |
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| AlbertoP | bbl | Oct 11 23:29 |
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| *AlbertoP has quit ("Sto andando via") | Oct 11 23:29 |
| MinceR | good riddance. | Oct 11 23:33 |
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| benJIman | Isn't it inconvenient when people don't agree with you. | Oct 11 23:36 |
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| schestowitz | *LOL* http://www.linux.com/feature/150084 "God hel us all if that idiot McBush wins next month!" | Oct 11 23:36 |
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| schestowitz | The folks here don't get the "Linux is a bastard" reference from Linus and take offense in it: http://www.linux.com/feature/149992 | Oct 11 23:36 |
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| MinceR | benJIman: it's inconvenient with facts don't agree with you, isn't it? | Oct 11 23:37 |
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| benJIman | MinceR: You tell me. | Oct 11 23:38 |
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| MinceR | i can't, you're the one experiencing it | Oct 11 23:38 |
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| benJIman | That's what your mum said. | Oct 11 23:39 |
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| MinceR | shouldn't you be in bed now? | Oct 11 23:39 |
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| benJIman | No work today, it's sunday. | Oct 11 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | http://ever-increasing-entropy.blogspo... '"Has a nation ever gone bankrupt before?" Apparently yes. Newfoundland (FKA the Dominion of Newfoundland) before WWII was basically insolvent due to its WWI debt. It reverted back to a British colony in the early 30s (it later became a Canadian province in 1949).' | Oct 11 23:46 |
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| schestowitz | cj: "With all the things that have been reported around OOXML over the last year I’ve often wondered what it must be like to work for a company that appears to be willing to go beyond what most would find acceptable to win. I’m glad this merely is a rhetorical question for me and surely hope it will stay that way." http://lehors.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/a... | Oct 11 23:55 |
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| schestowitz | He points to a certain page there. Follow the link. Microsoft Employees: Working for a Company That Bribes Charities for Lock-in... | Oct 11 23:55 |
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