08.22.08

Gemini version available ♊︎

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 21st, 2008 – Part III

Posted in IRC Logs at 10:24 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

PetoKraus i don’t give credit either Aug 21 19:06
schestowitz seller_liar: the press takes attention away from him. It glorifies Linux. Been like this since “Linux” took off. Aug 21 19:07
PetoKraus though i like him Aug 21 19:07
schestowitz It was easier without all that so-called “political” burden Aug 21 19:07
PetoKraus and he’s one of the three fanpages i joined on facebook (with debian and gentoo) Aug 21 19:07
seller_liar I don like LF because this false only “technical illusion of world” Aug 21 19:07
PetoKraus LF? Aug 21 19:08
seller_liar Linux foundation Aug 21 19:08
schestowitz To be funded by Microsoft one day, I’ve always reckoned. Like SCO was pro-Linux back in the days. Aug 21 19:09
seller_liar All credit goes to LF , Aug 21 19:10
seller_liar Linus,Greg and Alan are the only other pieces of chess Aug 21 19:10
schestowitz IBMers answer my question about Mono in Second Life now: http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-o… Aug 21 19:10
PetoKraus greg and alan? Aug 21 19:10
seller_liar All Linux foundation people Aug 21 19:10
schestowitz Cox and Hartman Aug 21 19:11
seller_liar yes Aug 21 19:11
schestowitz He’s with Novell (the latter Aug 21 19:11
PetoKraus never heard of’em Aug 21 19:11
schestowitz Should quit. :-) Aug 21 19:11
seller_liar of course Ted tso and all other of LF Aug 21 19:11
schestowitz Good point raised there: “So the question is, what does mono bring to the table that java doesn’t?” Aug 21 19:11
PetoKraus schestowitz: definitely Aug 21 19:12
schestowitz I’m tired of IBM’s secrecy. Same with Dell. Whose side are they on? Aug 21 19:12
PetoKraus well, the only thing would be – speed Aug 21 19:12
schestowitz On Dell and H-P: http://digg.com/linux_unix/SCO_… Aug 21 19:12
seller_liar schestowitz: hey roy Aug 21 19:13
seller_liar schestowitz: dot gnu have patent problems? Aug 21 19:13
schestowitz Oh, I forgot to answer that. Aug 21 19:13
schestowitz [H]omer suggests that it’s wrong to support .NET, not just with Mono. Aug 21 19:14
seller_liar schestowitz: why fsf do this? Aug 21 19:14
schestowitz Some say Dot GNU is for porting /to/ Linux, but not development from scratch. Aug 21 19:14
schestowitz I don’t know, seller_liar Aug 21 19:14
PetoKraus let’s ask then Aug 21 19:14
seller_liar schestowitz: only interoperabilty Aug 21 19:14
schestowitz I spoke to RMS a few times. He’s not anti-Mono, but he doesn’t want GNOME to depend on it. Aug 21 19:14
seller_liar schestowitz: who is the leader of gnome project? Icaza? Aug 21 19:15
schestowitz http://www.mail-archive.com/fo… Aug 21 19:15
schestowitz No. Aug 21 19:15
schestowitz Icaza sneaked out when there was a storm over Mono last year. He left quietly. Aug 21 19:15
seller_liar schestowitz: but ,he  is a leader secretly Aug 21 19:16
schestowitz Watc Update #1 here: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/… Aug 21 19:17
schestowitz Wathc Update #1 here: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11… Aug 21 19:17
PetoKraus schestowitz: will you type it third time? :P Aug 21 19:18
PetoKraus correctly ^ Aug 21 19:19
schestowitz Oh oh. Aug 21 19:20
schestowitz “The concept, which Intellectual Ventures presented this summer to the American Nuclear Society, would reduce the need for costly uranium enrichment and reprocessing, cutting the risk of weapons proliferation. The firm has a team of 30 engineers and scientists refining the concept, not to mention a big-name backer: Bill Gates.” Aug 21 19:20
schestowitz http://seattle.bizjournals.com/sea… Aug 21 19:20
schestowitz So Mr. Gates is investing in patent trolls. Aug 21 19:20
schestowitz PetoKraus: oops, didn’t notice the typo. :-) Aug 21 19:23
schestowitz Here’s an article in English about the Poland situation we wrote about yesterday: http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/b… Aug 21 19:32
PetoKraus http://news.slashdot.org/news/08/0… Aug 21 19:34
PetoKraus in case you didn’t know Aug 21 19:35
schestowitz Oh, that’s Grokla material. Aug 21 19:38
schestowitz *Groklaw  ; Thanks, anyway. Aug 21 19:38
schestowitz http://www.heise.de/english/newst… Aug 21 19:39
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seller_liar http://www.paldo.org/ Aug 21 19:51
seller_liar a good inoccent linux distribution Aug 21 19:52
seller_liar sad, but it uses mono for package management Aug 21 19:52
seller_liar look at version 1.14 Aug 21 19:52
seller_liar mono develop 1.0 ! Aug 21 19:52
PetoKraus aaaaaah Aug 21 19:53
seller_liar but is very good distro Aug 21 19:53
PetoKraus how? Aug 21 19:53
PetoKraus i mean, what makes distro “good”? Aug 21 19:54
PetoKraus for you Aug 21 19:54
seller_liar is inoccent, The distro does not endorse m$-novell Aug 21 19:54
schestowitz Oh no. Aug 21 19:54
schestowitz I liked Paldo GNU/Linux. Aug 21 19:54
schestowitz It’s from Switzerland, IIRC. One developer. Aug 21 19:54
seller_liar the distro developer is using vala Aug 21 19:54
seller_liar not mono Aug 21 19:54
schestowitz Hmmm.. Aug 21 19:54
seller_liar vala will be a default language for upkg Aug 21 19:55
seller_liar not mono anymore Aug 21 19:55
PetoKraus aha Aug 21 19:55
schestowitz I remeber buying my previous PC from Dabs. Now comes this: Dabs.com founder accused of attempted rape, drugs offences The founder of Dabs.com, David Atherton, has been charged with attempted rape and possession of Class A drugs. Aug 21 19:55
schestowitz Atherton, who sold his business to BT in April 2006 for £30m, is in custody after appearing in court in Bolton earlier this week. Aug 21 19:55
schestowitz A spokesman for Manchester Police said: “A 50-year-old man has been charged after a woman was sexually assaulted. Aug 21 19:55
schestowitz http://www.channelregister.co.uk/200… Aug 21 19:55
schestowitz Sorry about the OT thing. Just noticed it. Aug 21 19:56
seller_liar PetoKraus: what? Aug 21 19:56
PetoKraus seller_liar: reading about vala. Aug 21 19:56
seller_liar PetoKraus: Vala it’s mono anyway? Aug 21 19:56
PetoKraus http://live.gnome.org/Vala Aug 21 19:56
PetoKraus schestowitz: you know, this reminds me of reiser. Aug 21 19:57
schestowitz There was another recent one I can’t recall. Aug 21 19:57
schestowitz A founder of some company found dead after he had run naked and hugged some policeman. I can’t remember which company. Aug 21 19:57
schestowitz And yesterday an executive from Vodafone (IIRC) was murdered in her house. Aug 21 19:58
schestowitz (it was reported yesterday, but happened before) Aug 21 19:58
seller_liar PetoKraus: like C# syntax ,but it’no mono framework Aug 21 19:58
seller_liar *it’s not mono framework Aug 21 19:58
PetoKraus yes Aug 21 19:58
PetoKraus it’s not .NET port. Aug 21 19:58
schestowitz On the other hand, a Microsoft manager was jailed for fraud last month. Aug 21 19:58
seller_liar schestowitz: who? Aug 21 19:59
PetoKraus schestowitz: shall we celebrate? Aug 21 19:59
schestowitz I await the day that naked emperor Microsoft is found to be Enron #2 (or something not quite as bad but still a phony). Aug 21 19:59
schestowitz seller_liar: it’s older news Aug 21 19:59
schestowitz Hold on Aug 21 19:59
seller_liar schestowitz: I was thinking…. Aug 21 19:59
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/… Aug 21 19:59
schestowitz Lots of links about the fraud here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07/23… Aug 21 20:00
seller_liar schestowitz: Where are going the 90 bi which m$ lost? Aug 21 20:00
seller_liar schestowitz: ok thanks Aug 21 20:00
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schestowitz Lost market value. Investors lost it, including Microsoft shareholders. They now pump up the stock so it’s rising artificially. Pump and dump. Aug 21 20:01
schestowitz I’ve got loads of things I want to post in BN.com. I’ll probably to to sleep very late today. Aug 21 20:01
seller_liar schestowitz:  push-pull Aug 21 20:01
schestowitz Maybe it’s true what ASUS said about shortages < http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inqui… >, but why restock/stock just Windows and not GNU/Linux? (will watch this closely now) Aug 21 20:09
PetoKraus no money left for linux licenses? Aug 21 20:11
PetoKraus :P Aug 21 20:11
neighborlee wth is this rand-z I hear being pushed by this..alternatealias on buntu forums ??? Aug 21 20:12
PetoKraus ? Aug 21 20:13
neighborlee I just replied to his..ahem post by finding one from someone, to whom alternatealias never seemed able to find a comeback for,,here is my post: http://ubuntuforums.org/showth… Aug 21 20:14
schestowitz neighborlee: no, no RAND-z Aug 21 20:14
neighborlee ah,,, Aug 21 20:14
schestowitz BTW, RAND means something worse than they have you believe. Aug 21 20:14
neighborlee reasonable blah.. Aug 21 20:14
neighborlee I notice whenever these moles cant find a arguement to back their claims,,they get nasty. Aug 21 20:15
neighborlee go fig ;) Aug 21 20:15
schestowitz See http://boycottnovell.com/20… Aug 21 20:16
schestowitz They use jargon so as to have you confused and give us. Aug 21 20:16
schestowitz *up Aug 21 20:16
neighborlee brb Aug 21 20:16
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schestowitz This is becoming a long discussion: http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/27688/ As usual, the LXer community is the hardest Aug 21 20:22
neighborlee ;) Aug 21 20:23
schestowitz On Mono:” Well there’s… Mono? Sure, Novell has access to Microsoft’s developers and documentation for re-implementing .NET on Linux, but Microsoft has hardly made a college try to help Novell actually FINISH Mono or commit programmers to the effort.  Hell, if Microsoft took one million dollars of that hundred million, and earmarked a few of its .NET developers as consulting staff to Novell for 3 years, you can bet they would Aug 21 20:24
schestowitz get to parity with the one on Windows, at least so it isn’t always broken with the latest implementation of whatever API. Now, I’m not blaming Microsoft for not being open with Novell — it’s not their implicit responsibility to build Open Source projects — Mono is a Novell sponsored, community effort. But if Microsoft really wants to see .NET running on literally every OS, then Mono is going to need more than just “here Aug 21 20:24
schestowitz ’s our docs and call our guys and come on campus whenever you want when you need help, Miguel. Oh and by the way, have some free Diet Cokes and go use our Starbucks in the lounge.”” Aug 21 20:24
schestowitz http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=9228 Aug 21 20:24
neighborlee yeah its clear we need to remember what ballmer said 2/28/2008,,,about who is M$’s biggest competitor..of course he said linux :) Aug 21 20:24
neighborlee and to think anyone wonders, why people want nothng to do with mono ? sheesh louiza Aug 21 20:24
schestowitz Who’s louiza? :-) Aug 21 20:26
neighborlee one of the biggets plus’s for us, is redhat, not supporting mono and fedora coming latley to their senses. Aug 21 20:26
neighborlee oh sorry LOL Aug 21 20:26
neighborlee its a english  saying :) Aug 21 20:26
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schestowitz I’m used to “yes charlotte” Aug 21 20:29
neighborlee http://en.wiktionary.org/wik… Aug 21 20:29
neighborlee schestowitz, lol Aug 21 20:29
neighborlee just my way of avoiding cuss words, while remembering my dear grandmother, whose name was louise ;),,hey it works ;) Aug 21 20:31
schestowitz God bless her. Aug 21 20:31
neighborlee heh Aug 21 20:32
neighborlee oh btw..what is this claim, that mono is in the OIN ,,I can not find it anywhere ..?? Aug 21 20:32
schestowitz That would be new to me. OIN has patents? ]sarcasm /] Aug 21 20:33
neighborlee lol Aug 21 20:34
schestowitz We don’t have patents. Also, see my earlier pointer to Gates’ backing of trolls. Aug 21 20:36
schestowitz OIN is worthless against trolls. They laugh at it. Aug 21 20:36
neighborlee :) Aug 21 20:36
schestowitz To put it mildly, I’m find a trend where Mac users (putting it mildly… not fans) praise every piece of Mac-only ‘open source’. If it need the Apple blobs, which only run on super-pricey gadgets and PCs, what’s so open about it? Aug 21 20:52
schestowitz *needs Aug 21 20:52
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neighborlee schestowitz, yeah welll maybe intel macs will come to rescue for apple necessities who knows..no idea what their pricing is Aug 21 20:54
schestowitz It’s less about the hardware and more about the stack. If it’s OK to criticise Windows-only ‘open faux’, then it would be hypocritical to accept this term dilution from Mac software. Aug 21 20:55
schestowitz Gads, I’ve got so much stuff to post about Novell. I’ve /so/ fallen behind. Aug 21 20:56
neighborlee Id ont know where you find the time…such a champ ;)( Aug 21 20:57
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seller_liar Someone have tried to talk about remove mono from gnewsense? Aug 21 21:05
schestowitz Hi, _Doug Aug 21 21:06
schestowitz Yes, seller_liar Aug 21 21:06
schestowitz [H]omer did. Aug 21 21:07
seller_liar and Aug 21 21:07
_Doug Hey .. Aug 21 21:07
schestowitz Well… I’ll get you some links. Aug 21 21:07
seller_liar brian and paul did not accept Aug 21 21:07
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/20… Aug 21 21:07
schestowitz Oops. I meant Gobuntu. Aug 21 21:08
schestowitz http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/os… Aug 21 21:08
seller_liar schestowitz: thanks! I do not know about this page Aug 21 21:08
schestowitz They sort of join forces (not exactly), so it may be relevant. Shuttleworth does seem to mind Mono though (PJ disagrees with him too because he ignores the patent trolls): http://boycottnovell.com/2008/02/22… Aug 21 21:09
schestowitz Doug, the troll came back yesterday (or the day before). Via Tor, got banned. Aug 21 21:10
_Doug Well .. it figures .. Aug 21 21:10
schestowitz Time for a policy sooner or later. They play innocent while throwing insults. Aug 21 21:12
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schestowitz How ironic is this headline: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-1…   They can make datacentres there, but they shred lots of evidence of Microsoft crimes over in Iowa. They also have some very questionable tax  rebates there. Possible misconduct or subtle bribe.. never  mind that though. Aug 21 21:13
_Doug Iowa, that’s the place where the Court shreads its own documents .. :) Aug 21 21:14
_Doug Or is it Utah ? Aug 21 21:15
schestowitz I can’t find what I’m looking for. Aug 21 21:16
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/27… There was another one with listing of some kind of rebate. Aug 21 21:16
schestowitz _Doug: see this: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/20/… (El Reg reference at the top) Aug 21 21:16
_Doug It was new SCO that wnr backinto court and shreaded its own documents .. Aug 21 21:19
_Doug SCO PULPS CALDERA-MS TRIAL ARCHIVES Aug 21 21:20
_Doug http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/05/22/s… Aug 21 21:20
schestowitz Yes. Aug 21 21:20
schestowitz Did PJ cover this? Aug 21 21:20
_Doug I would thin so .. Aug 21 21:21
schestowitz See what you can make of this one: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/21… Aug 21 21:23
schestowitz I thought about trying to ask Dell for answers, but they are too boiler-roomy, methinks. Aug 21 21:23
_Doug co-incidence .. :) Aug 21 21:23
schestowitz Why Did Dell join in? Aug 21 21:26
_Doug “I have written confirmation that several hundred boxes have already been turned into paper mulch,” said J. Harrison Colter, an attorney for the Canopy Group, which is now representing SCO/Caldera in the documents matter. Aug 21 21:27
_Doug See .. totaly coincidental … Aug 21 21:27
_Doug Why Did Dell join in?: because MS stood on their nuts .. re OEM contracts ? Aug 21 21:28
schestowitz Doesn’t say much about Dell. Aug 21 21:28
schestowitz Yes Aug 21 21:28
schestowitz That’s what I reckon, but what are the terms? Aug 21 21:29
_Doug they’re just the “delivery people” Aug 21 21:29
schestowitz Dell already pays Microsoft for Ubuntu PCs Aug 21 21:29
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/… Aug 21 21:29
_Doug join in: what more recent developements are you refering to, if any ? Aug 21 21:29
seller_liar for codecs? Aug 21 21:29
schestowitz That’s what happens when many companies can assemble parts and only one can sell Windows. Aug 21 21:30
schestowitz That’s why there was a stampede to Symbian too. Control. Aug 21 21:30
schestowitz Yes, seller_liar, at the least Aug 21 21:31
_Doug codecs: ahh .. well it’s just  more of the same extend (IP protection) and embrace (ie pollute) Aug 21 21:31
schestowitz Same with their new ‘Remix’: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/… Aug 21 21:31
schestowitz As you can see, even Shuttleworth confirmed this to us. Aug 21 21:31
schestowitz Yes, then Mono and other stuff, eh? Aug 21 21:32
schestowitz Until Windows is cheaper. Aug 21 21:32
_Doug I see the light: it’s all about poluting the codecs, nothing new to see here … Aug 21 21:33
_Doug What do Dell get out of it, their ‘partner’ agrees to not sue them … ! Aug 21 21:34
schestowitz Where does H-P in this picture. They only preload SLED 10, which is polluted and paid for via Novell. Aug 21 21:35
neighborlee _Doug, haha as always Aug 21 21:35
schestowitz Had it not been for the Dell polls, they would probably go with SLED, which is what they offer in China. Aug 21 21:36
neighborlee maybe linus is right about ‘release early and often’, but I just cant see how a 6 mo. cycle for latest ubuntu release is going to give anyone the feeling of stability or security ? Aug 21 21:38
neighborlee atm I have mandriva installed, but due to their inclusion of mono, its about to be wiped Aug 21 21:39
neighborlee and I really DO LOVE mandriva ..but mono nope, they can kiss my grits Aug 21 21:39
schestowitz Use KDE Mandriva Aug 21 21:40
neighborlee I cant Aug 21 21:40
neighborlee its against my  ethics Aug 21 21:40
_Doug You don’t have to upgrade, it’s not as if the new stuff will stop working with the old ‘stuff’ Aug 21 21:40
neighborlee sorry to be anal, but thats just me ;( Aug 21 21:41
neighborlee ok nvm, im not sorry :) Aug 21 21:41
neighborlee im firm in my resolve ;)whew Aug 21 21:41
schestowitz KDE against your ethics or Mono Aug 21 21:41
schestowitz ? Aug 21 21:41
neighborlee both Aug 21 21:41
neighborlee gtk vs qt Aug 21 21:41
neighborlee even though I really am annoyed what gtk/gnome is doing to free software Aug 21 21:42
neighborlee even so,I can always fork if I wish Aug 21 21:42
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schestowitz Qt would go BSD probably had Trolltech dissolved in Nokia. Aug 21 21:43
neighborlee hm Aug 21 21:43
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Aug 21 21:43
neighborlee kewl thx Aug 21 21:43
_Doug What’s Dell paying MS in royalties ? Aug 21 21:44
schestowitz Nobody knows. Aug 21 21:44
_Doug What’s Dell paying MS in royalties for the codecs? Aug 21 21:44
schestowitz Ask Fluendo for starter, then ask Dell what that stupid deal was about. Aug 21 21:44
schestowitz Dell and Canonical do it via Fleundo, Spaiin. Aug 21 21:45
_Doug Like the Novell deal, it just gets Dell to put on paper that they acknowledge MS patent claims .. Aug 21 21:46
schestowitz I just got mentioned in ComputerWorld. Aug 21 21:46
schestowitz http://blogs.computerworld.com/m… Aug 21 21:46
neighborlee ah ic Aug 21 21:47
_Doug “Users of GNU/Linux and Solaris operating systems have previously lacked solutions which enabled them to license and use popular media formats such as Windows Media, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 in accordance with the laws of their country” Aug 21 21:47
schestowitz Yes, _Doug, there’s a group of them signing a paper suggesting that Linux is ‘tainted. Aug 21 21:47
_Doug http://www.fluendo.com/press/rel… Aug 21 21:47
neighborlee ah yes..the dreaded takers overs/consolidations..I saw this coming Aug 21 21:47
_Doug So it isn’t a technical problem .. Aug 21 21:47
schestowitz No need to show evidence. Just sign away. It’s like SCO. Aug 21 21:47
_Doug I do know that most distros, distributed from the US, had the codecs missing, you had to download these from a third country. Aug 21 21:48
_Doug What a pity some people didn’t sgow more backbone !!! Aug 21 21:48
_Doug show = sgow Aug 21 21:48
schestowitz Yes, but you needn’t buy a Dell for GNU/Linux. It’s chicken and egg… Aug 21 21:50
schestowitz Scenario 1: People refuse to pay Microsoft by buying Ubuntu from Dell, then Dell takes Linux off mass market Aug 21 21:51
schestowitz Scenario 2: everyone accepts Microsoft tax, buys Ubuntu from Dell, then Microsoft essentially owns the GNU. Aug 21 21:51
schestowitz Great, ain’t it? Aug 21 21:51
_Doug All we’re seeing is the balkanization of Open Source .. Aug 21 21:52
_Doug purr of evil .. :) Aug 21 21:52
_Doug MS prints Ubuntu coupons .. :) Aug 21 21:53
_Doug we haven’t even got to IP violations in the er .. IP protocols .. :) Aug 21 21:54
schestowitz Well, not exactly. Aug 21 21:54
schestowitz protocols IP you mean? Aug 21 21:54
_Doug That’ll keep for 2012 … Aug 21 21:55
_Doug Intellectual Property violations in ‘our’ Internet Protocols Aug 21 21:55
schestowitz They have Apache now. Aug 21 21:56
_Doug IP violations in the IP stack .. it’s a pun .. :) Aug 21 21:56
_Doug Apache ? Aug 21 21:56
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Aug 21 21:56
schestowitz Not excctly though. Aug 21 21:57
schestowitz Bruce Perens and his community reckon they’ll try to change HTTP or HTML. Aug 21 21:57
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trmanco_ great :| Aug 21 22:20
schestowitz Specifically…? Aug 21 22:20
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trmanco_ my twin Aug 21 22:21
neighborlee lol Aug 21 22:21
schestowitz Spooky Aug 21 22:21
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trmanco good Aug 21 22:21
trmanco I’m back and authed Aug 21 22:21
schestowitz I wonder if we should speak to the OSI Aug 21 22:21
schestowitz They sure seem to be more concerned now about Novell’s role. Aug 21 22:22
schestowitz Aha!! http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/0… Aug 21 22:38
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neighborlee schestowitz, I like part of that, except the part where he mentions his faith in novel for helping spread foss LOL Aug 21 22:55
schestowitz Novell has money ties with KDE Aug 21 22:56
schestowitz They have just sponsored Akademy, so he must suck up to them. Mind you, this is one of the top KDE developers Aug 21 22:56
schestowitz He’s almost man #1 in terms of recognition in KDE. Aug 21 22:56
neighborlee ah didnt know Aug 21 22:57
schestowitz IOW, he need to keep his mouth shut. Watch how he ends the post apologetically. He also CLOSED COMMENTS. Aug 21 22:57
neighborlee ok, thats sad then, knowing that. Aug 21 22:57
neighborlee I noticed that yes Aug 21 22:58
neighborlee whimp major Aug 21 22:58
schestowitz The message Novell sends Aaron: “you just keep developing. Be a good volunteer. We’ll sell coupons for “peace of mind”, i.e. we won’t blow your mates’ kneecaps” Aug 21 22:59
schestowitz They should stand up and demand change. It’s amazing how much they put up with as volunteers. Novell stomps on their GPL — their butter and bread for success. Aug 21 23:00
neighborlee yes and so the world turns ;) Aug 21 23:11
neighborlee I guess we all choose how our story is written ;) Aug 21 23:11
schestowitz I hope that the devs will become more vocal, but they can’t because of friends and colleagues. Aug 21 23:11
schestowitz Linus has colleagues from Novell, which funds the LF. Aug 21 23:11
schestowitz KDE has support from Novell (which at the same time screwing the devs) Aug 21 23:12
neighborlee they best be caeful Aug 21 23:12
neighborlee careful Aug 21 23:12
neighborlee I have  very good friends, who are almost ready to DUMP ubuntu for *BSD Aug 21 23:12
schestowitz BSD? Why? Aug 21 23:13
schestowitz They have similar DEs (GNOME, KDE, etc.) Aug 21 23:13
neighborlee I suppose the license Aug 21 23:13
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schestowitz Licences are not the problem./ Aug 21 23:14
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neighborlee unhappy with mono intrusion, etc. Aug 21 23:14
schestowitz BSD will break loose on the desktop when GNU/Linux does. Aug 21 23:14
schestowitz neighborlee: they inherit the same s* Aug 21 23:15
schestowitz See my point about them using the same top layer of the stack Aug 21 23:15
schestowitz The kernel does not make all that much of a difference in this context Aug 21 23:15
neighborlee yeah I am not sure of his reason Aug 21 23:16
neighborlee I can ask Aug 21 23:16
schestowitz It’s possible to dance between kernels. The software stays largely the smae. Aug 21 23:17
neighborlee mostly yes Aug 21 23:17
schestowitz I’ve seen BSD users who complain about the same issue. They should help us. Aug 21 23:18
neighborlee hm interesting had no idea,but yeah Aug 21 23:19
schestowitz Freedom is not a popularity contest. As some GNUs would say, there’s no point to compromising freedom for market share. Aug 21 23:19
MinceR BSD is even more susceptible to attacks from the enemies of FLOSS. Aug 21 23:19
schestowitz Yes. Aug 21 23:21
*Bobo (i=44c46c4b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-13580ca8116fabbf) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 21 23:24
seller_liar the big problem of BSD developers are elitism and “I’m the best” Aug 21 23:24
schestowitz Talk about Linus… though he too accuses them of this. Aug 21 23:25
Bobo same goes for Linux except they replace best with efficient Aug 21 23:25
seller_liar for example Aug 21 23:25
seller_liar look how many bsd distro have and how many GNU linux distros have Aug 21 23:26
seller_liar 5 vs 500 Aug 21 23:26
seller_liar why? Aug 21 23:26
schestowitz Linux has 5 ‘major’ ones. :-) Aug 21 23:26
seller_liar Linus should not be considered, because he works for companies,not to desktop is much important for him Aug 21 23:27
schestowitz 1 kernel, 2 main DEs (also shared with BSDs), etc. Aug 21 23:27
neighborlee I think having so many does  cause fracturing of a otherwise solid base though Aug 21 23:27
seller_liar schestowitz: BSD people is very bastard Aug 21 23:27
neighborlee I always have thought so,,, considering the weak ‘ish  releases of the major brands, I think im prob. about right on that Aug 21 23:27
Bobo hold on Boycott Novel’s Java chat sucks Aug 21 23:27
*Bobo has quit (Client Quit) Aug 21 23:27
neighborlee lol ok ;0- ;) Aug 21 23:28
seller_liar schestowitz: “oh my god ,my system works in a toaster” Aug 21 23:28
seller_liar schestowitz: “oh my god , my system do clustering over the internet!” Aug 21 23:28
neighborlee I think it also leads to some confusion of new users coming to LINUX Aug 21 23:28
neighborlee oops linux Aug 21 23:28
*ReverseGTR (n=ReverseG@ool-44c46c4b.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #boycottnovell Aug 21 23:28
neighborlee ie:omg, which one do I chooose ? Aug 21 23:28
ReverseGTR Bobo here Aug 21 23:28
neighborlee lol Aug 21 23:28
seller_liar schestowitz: “oh my god , my system is so paranoic whiche even can not install” Aug 21 23:29
ReverseGTR anyway you have to be a bit arrogant to design software which makes barely to no capital and is open for anyone to change Aug 21 23:29
seller_liar “oh my god, my system is more fast in servers than linux ,but no one looks for me” Aug 21 23:29
ReverseGTR ie = open source means arrogant developers. Arrogance is not always a bad thing. Aug 21 23:29
neighborlee well ;) Aug 21 23:30
neighborlee it should not be so however Aug 21 23:30
seller_liar It’s a shame for a donated kernel ,only help companies Aug 21 23:30
schestowitz Hey, Bobo Aug 21 23:30
ReverseGTR schestowitz: yea Aug 21 23:30
schestowitz Don’t forget that BSDers share lots od drivers with us. Aug 21 23:30
schestowitz OpenSSH too… Aug 21 23:30
seller_liar BSD people does not worry with “normal users” Aug 21 23:30
neighborlee yes much is shared Aug 21 23:30
schestowitz Let’s not bark up the wrong tree :-) :-) Aug 21 23:31
ReverseGTR neighborlee: because both BSD and Linux users have a common social effort Aug 21 23:31
ReverseGTR how they go about it in detail differs Aug 21 23:31
neighborlee yes Aug 21 23:31
neighborlee I’ve read some on this issue, though not tons Aug 21 23:31
seller_liar BSD people is very crazy , M$ uses a lot of code from Bsd license Aug 21 23:31
neighborlee well Aug 21 23:32
neighborlee im not sure how that makes them crazy ;) Aug 21 23:32
schestowitz After the Reiser thing, I don’t know if it’s fair to call them crazy. Aug 21 23:32
schestowitz Hans Reiser is a shame to many of us, a disgrace. Aug 21 23:33
ReverseGTR seller_liar: that is because their license allows anybody no matter indivisual or corporate body to utilize code without the end result necessarily being obligated to uphold the same requirements Aug 21 23:33
seller_liar reiser is a poor guym Aug 21 23:33
neighborlee very sad yes, about reiser Aug 21 23:33
neighborlee what a shame he was so good at programming, yet so bad at social issues ;() Aug 21 23:33
ReverseGTR GNU on the other hand very vehamently disallows that Aug 21 23:33
seller_liar ReverseGTR: yes Aug 21 23:34
neighborlee well Aug 21 23:34
neighborlee you can argue bsd is therefore more free Aug 21 23:34
seller_liar BSD someday will acess the desktop? Aug 21 23:34
neighborlee you take our freedom, ane chooose what you do with it Aug 21 23:35
seller_liar libertinous license Aug 21 23:35
neighborlee yes Aug 21 23:35
seller_liar libertinity is not good, it’s more useful on specific cases Aug 21 23:35
ReverseGTR neighborlee: both can be exploited though, there is no way to avoid it Aug 21 23:35
neighborlee I now Aug 21 23:35
neighborlee I know ;( Aug 21 23:35
neighborlee but that is how people make choices ;) Aug 21 23:36
neighborlee you follow path of good,, or greed Aug 21 23:36
neighborlee that defines who we are. Aug 21 23:36
seller_liar I do not know Aug 21 23:36
seller_liar But Aug 21 23:36
ReverseGTR neighborlee: or you just implement or distribute your software the best way you think Aug 21 23:36
seller_liar The BSD people must change the focus Aug 21 23:36
ReverseGTR some businesses go opensource because they know they do not have infastructure to support all their users on their own Aug 21 23:37
ReverseGTR or that charging for support is their prerogative Aug 21 23:38
seller_liar Ubuntu bsd Aug 21 23:39
schestowitz Some of them iust latch onto others (Oracle) Aug 21 23:39
ReverseGTR schestowitz: they have the support, but lack the infastructure to develope protocols and apps on their own Aug 21 23:40
ReverseGTR if you want a even greater former software pioneer turned M$ shill there is SCO Aug 21 23:41
ReverseGTR even there there isn’t really a need for a Boycott SCO website since their systems are not widely used anymore anyway Aug 21 23:42
MinceR 003838 < neighborlee> you can argue bsd is therefore more free Aug 21 23:44
MinceR arguing won’t make it true ;) Aug 21 23:45
schestowitz SCO got some positive coverage from their local press. Aug 21 23:45
MinceR gpl protects the freedom of the code, bsd doesn’t Aug 21 23:45
neighborlee MinceR, heh Aug 21 23:45
neighborlee I think thats a matter of opinion isn’t it Aug 21 23:46
neighborlee I mean they are both coming from freedom loving people Aug 21 23:46
neighborlee create, and share Aug 21 23:47
neighborlee and hope make better ;))) Aug 21 23:47
neighborlee I get that part yes ;) Aug 21 23:47
ReverseGTR MinceR: sure, it gives more freedom to the one who developed it but then they in turn can make it close to impossible to change it. Aug 21 23:47
MinceR it gives more freedom to users too Aug 21 23:48
MinceR it guarantees that the code will be available and will be legal to use Aug 21 23:48
schestowitz Sustainability question. Aug 21 23:48
schestowitz BSD is liberal, GPL protective of freedom. It’s philosophy anyway Aug 21 23:49
ReverseGTR MinceR: or in other words makes people automatically oblidged to obey whatever contractual obligations the developer set forth once opened. Which may include the inability to examine or change certain files thus making any other version pushed by someone else different if not inferior Aug 21 23:49
neighborlee schestowitz, yup Aug 21 23:50
ReverseGTR like schestowitz states, neither are better Aug 21 23:50
ReverseGTR it should be all up to the developer to decide Aug 21 23:50
MinceR the obligations it makes people obey are restricted to the ones set in the GPL Aug 21 23:51
MinceR i wish we could get to the point where those protections won’t be necessary any more Aug 21 23:51
schestowitz GPL’s? Aug 21 23:52
MinceR but today they’re needed because of bastards like microsoft and apple Aug 21 23:52
MinceR yes Aug 21 23:52
neighborlee MinceR, indeed,,thats the idea Aug 21 23:52
schestowitz They are already circumvanted with TiVo and swpats Aug 21 23:52
schestowitz *circumvented Aug 21 23:52
ReverseGTR but companies can also utilize the GPL to create a rift between their open source and closed distributions: http://www.linux.com/feature/118489 Aug 21 23:52
MinceR that’s why we need to use GPLv3 Aug 21 23:52
neighborlee totally indeed Aug 21 23:53
*MinceR reads Aug 21 23:53
MinceR that looks like they’re violating the GPL Aug 21 23:55
MinceR at least according to the article someone posted here earlier Aug 21 23:55
ReverseGTR also Google was caught handing out their latest and thus more complete SDKs to their 2nd Tier partners while leaving every other developer in the dark, eventually only to be found out after a Google employee screwed up in forwarding emails: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/… Aug 21 23:55
MinceR and i don’t see how this is the GPL’s fault Aug 21 23:56
ReverseGTR MinceR: either way the rift in MySQL will happen Aug 21 23:56
neighborlee ReverseGTR, eek ;) Aug 21 23:56
MinceR well, android isn’t going to be open unless they support native code Aug 21 23:56
ReverseGTR MinceR: GPL can enable the main developer along with whoever they are partnered with to severly limit the open sourcecode to the point that anyone who developes from that can end up creating apps that are incapadible with the main string. Aug 21 23:58
*trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”) Aug 21 23:58
MinceR so could they with BSD Aug 21 23:58
ReverseGTR MinceR: but there is nothing legally binding the latter Aug 21 23:59
MinceR the license won’t really keep the copyright holder from closing the code Aug 21 23:59
ReverseGTR MinceR: in order for them to do the same thing under BSD would be for them to openly admit they closed it Aug 21 23:59
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