09.09.08

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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 8th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 2:28 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

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quanta_ so I heard that some people here consider software to be math Sep 08 05:44
*quanta_ is now known as quanta Sep 08 05:44
quanta I’m curious as to why Sep 08 05:44
quanta anybody want to answer? Sep 08 05:46
quanta anybody awake? Sep 08 05:46
schestowitz Yes. Sep 08 05:46
schestowitz There are existing discussions of this point. Sep 08 05:46
quanta I am curious of how this was even thought of because although I haven’t done a whole lot of coding, it seems to be a wholly different pursuit than mathematical research Sep 08 05:47
quanta Admittedly, I’ve only begun mathematical research this summer, but that’s more than most people do in a lifetime Sep 08 05:49
schestowitz http://www.amazon.com/Math-You-Cant-Use-Co… Sep 08 05:49
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quanta_ sorry, bad connection Sep 08 05:50
seller_liar quanta_: for me software should not patented, because the software only is done one time Sep 08 05:52
quanta_ that’s not what I’m asking Sep 08 05:52
quanta_ I’m asking how it’s like math Sep 08 05:52
quanta_ or not like Sep 08 05:52
quanta_ IS math Sep 08 05:52
quanta_ because I’m not seeing it Sep 08 05:53
seller_liar quanta_: people who patents software have a real propose to make a lot of money in short time Sep 08 05:53
seller_liar quanta_: algoritms Sep 08 05:53
quanta_ algorithms alone do not make math though Sep 08 05:54
seller_liar quanta_:but algorithms uses math Sep 08 05:54
quanta_ yes, but architects also use math Sep 08 05:55
quanta_ that does not make building design itself math Sep 08 05:55
seller_liar quanta_: I don know now Sep 08 05:56
seller_liar quanta_: why people create some patented software ? Sep 08 05:56
seller_liar quanta_: since begin ,the software developers already thinks in do a lot of money Sep 08 05:57
quanta_ Software always struck me as a more of an engineering thing Sep 08 05:57
quanta_ so a reasonable patent system would make sense to me. I dunno if the current system is reasonable, but that’s not really my question. Sep 08 05:58
seller_liar quanta_: proprietary and patented software detroys the consumer control over the product, and gives the control for companies Sep 08 05:58
seller_liar quanta_: for me it’s not Sep 08 05:58
quanta_ not engineering? Sep 08 05:58
seller_liar quanta_: instead of user pay the developer for make a software (in free software for example)  , the developer controls the price in proprietary software Sep 08 05:59
seller_liar quanta_: m$ for example sell windows in any price Sep 08 05:59
seller_liar quanta_: why the user cannot tell the value the software? Sep 08 05:59
seller_liar quanta_: the system is a complete crap Sep 08 05:59
quanta_ Value or Price? Sep 08 06:00
quanta_ Because he can decide whether or not he wants to pay for it Sep 08 06:00
seller_liar quanta_: price Sep 08 06:00
quanta_ in other words, its value to him Sep 08 06:00
seller_liar quanta_: and value too Sep 08 06:00
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quanta_ well, it only seems fair that the price must be set so that the company doesn’t lose money Sep 08 06:00
quanta_ but that’s not my point… Sep 08 06:00
quanta_ how is software math? Sep 08 06:01
seller_liar hey, someone have a link about eff and the free software advocacy? Sep 08 06:01
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quanta with math, I come up with some axioms, perhaps some operations, and then I ask a question about them Sep 08 06:01
quanta there are three possiblities Sep 08 06:01
quanta when you make a hypothesis Sep 08 06:02
quanta A) your right Sep 08 06:02
quanta B) you’re wrong Sep 08 06:02
quanta and Sep 08 06:02
quanta C) the question cannot be answered with your current set of axioms Sep 08 06:02
quanta how you get there is important, but not truly the crucial thing in and of itself Sep 08 06:02
quanta and the answer is determined before you even begin progressing towards it Sep 08 06:03
ZiggyFish quanta: who are you arguing with? (I’ve just joined the chat) Sep 08 06:04
quanta I’m not really arguing with anyone in particular Sep 08 06:04
schestowitz Not sure it’s an argument per se Sep 08 06:04
seller_liar quanta: I do not know now Sep 08 06:04
quanta I just am confused by how software could be considered math Sep 08 06:04
quanta they aren’t really the same thing Sep 08 06:04
schestowitz It’s the tired discussion about algorithms as maths. Sep 08 06:04
ZiggyFish quanta: are you a programmer Sep 08 06:04
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ZiggyFish lol Sep 08 06:05
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quanta there is some math that is strongly tied to computer science, but that’s not as far as I know the issue Sep 08 06:05
ZiggyFish quanta: are you a programmer? Sep 08 06:05
quanta not really, I’ve done a little bit of coding, but nothing above intro level stuff you’d see Sep 08 06:05
ZiggyFish (need to know, so I can talk to you in the write way) Sep 08 06:06
quanta Conversely, I could ask, are you a mathematician? Sep 08 06:06
ZiggyFish no, but do know intermedia maths Sep 08 06:06
quanta hmmm.. describe intermediate math please Sep 08 06:06
quanta like, set theory? graph theory? vector calculus? some of all? Sep 08 06:08
quanta ? Sep 08 06:11
ZiggyFish quanta: programs are made up of commands that move bytes, from one location to another. and inorder to do that. each byte must have an address (like 0×40000000). So say you wanted to copy a string from one location to another (like say you wanted to upper case something), you would first test the value to see if it was between 97 and <what ever the ascii value for ‘z’ (which to do that is a subtraction of both to see if a cer Sep 08 06:11
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quanta_ sorry I missed that Sep 08 06:12
quanta_ bad connection Sep 08 06:12
quanta_ I caught the first part Sep 08 06:12
ZiggyFish quanta: programs are made up of commands that move bytes, from one location to another. and inorder to do that. each byte must have an address (like 0×40000000). So say you wanted to copy a string from one location to another (like say you wanted to upper case something), you would first test the value to see if it was between 97 and <what ever the ascii value for ‘z’ (which to do that is a subtraction of both to see if a cer Sep 08 06:12
quanta_ was there anything after? Sep 08 06:12
ZiggyFish nope Sep 08 06:12
quanta_ ok, following so far Sep 08 06:12
ZiggyFish my point is all programs are mathematical (even simple ones). Sep 08 06:13
quanta_ ? Sep 08 06:13
quanta_ that’s not math Sep 08 06:13
ZiggyFish define math Sep 08 06:13
quanta_ It’s not exactly an easy thing to define Sep 08 06:13
schestowitz It’s a recipe in logic. Sep 08 06:13
schestowitz There’s no device. Sep 08 06:13
quanta_ but you start with a set of axioms Sep 08 06:13
quanta_ then you ask a question about the properties of some object Sep 08 06:14
seller_liar quanta_: equivalence ,like string manipulation , is proved by axioms Sep 08 06:14
quanta_ and attempt to prove something about said properties Sep 08 06:14
quanta_ but that wouldn’t be enough on its own Sep 08 06:14
quanta_ as my defintion is somewhat loose Sep 08 06:14
ZiggyFish what seller_liar said Sep 08 06:14
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quanta for example, one could say I was talking about physics instead, which isn’t strictly math Sep 08 06:15
quanta sorry for the connection Sep 08 06:15
quanta I can’t do anything about it Sep 08 06:15
quanta I’m on vacation, and I don’t even know where the access point is Sep 08 06:16
ZiggyFish also there is the way in which the movement is done (which uses AND, OR and NOT). Sep 08 06:16
ZiggyFish lol Sep 08 06:16
quanta yes, logic gates Sep 08 06:17
ZiggyFish yes, which is math Sep 08 06:17
seller_liar boolean logic, is a lot axioms Sep 08 06:17
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quanta_ goddamn connection Sep 08 06:17
ZiggyFish maybe it’s trying to tell you something Sep 08 06:18
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quanta indeed, boolean logic is mathematical, but just because a program is based upon it, does not necessarily mean the program is math Sep 08 06:18
quanta physics uses lots of math, and even sometimes lends itself to mathematical like proofs, yet it is not math Sep 08 06:18
quanta one must be careful to distinguish the application from the thing itself Sep 08 06:19
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seller_liar quanta: physics  is based in ideas, like mathematics is Sep 08 06:19
quanta there are indeed realms of computer science that are math… like asking what network scheme is the most efficient by some metric Sep 08 06:19
quanta yes, but physics is different, because things are determined empirically Sep 08 06:20
schestowitz That’s not the only point though. Algorithms are a form of expression that’s unique. Sep 08 06:20
quanta nothing can be determined empirically in math Sep 08 06:20
ZiggyFish anyway on a serious note, does anyone have access to a windows machine? Sep 08 06:20
schestowitz Trivial patents can be a fence you can’t hop Sep 08 06:20
schestowitz Like paging keys. Sep 08 06:20
ZiggyFish need to test something in IE Sep 08 06:20
schestowitz Web site? Sep 08 06:20
quanta yes, some patents can indeed be not necessarily ideal, but that doesn’t really apply to my question Sep 08 06:21
ZiggyFish yeah Sep 08 06:21
schestowitz browsershots.org Sep 08 06:21
ZiggyFish need to know if this works in IE (the javascript) Sep 08 06:21
ZiggyFish http://cwarn.org/ Sep 08 06:21
quanta algorithms are unique? you mean a specific algorithm correct? Sep 08 06:21
quanta however, there can be multiple algorithms for one type of problem Sep 08 06:22
schestowitz Programmers have copyrights. Sep 08 06:22
quanta on the other hand, I would define a purely mathematical question as having only one answer based upon your set of axioms. Sep 08 06:23
quanta for example, a particular algorithm has only one computational complexity as far as I know Sep 08 06:23
seller_liar schestowitz: someone knows the end since begining Sep 08 06:24
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schestowitz What do you mean? Sep 08 06:24
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quanta_ (it might be rather complicated, but there’s still only one complete answer) Sep 08 06:25
seller_liar schestowitz: see B.F Skinner, it invalidates all patents Sep 08 06:25
schestowitz Got URL? Sep 08 06:25
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quanta_ on the other hand, there can be multiple ways to accomplish some task in programming Sep 08 06:25
quanta_ with trees for example Sep 08 06:25
quanta_ you can do breadth first or depth first searches Sep 08 06:25
schestowitz The point worth making is that swapats promote no development really. Sep 08 06:26
schestowitz Programmer don’t like patents. Sep 08 06:26
seller_liar schestowitz: hehe, sorry roy i do not have one, but search for skinner Sep 08 06:26
quanta_ ok, so programmer’s don’t like patents? Sep 08 06:26
schestowitz I can recall something like this. Sep 08 06:26
seller_liar schestowitz: even the “hardware patents” Sep 08 06:26
quanta_ what about the ones that make money off of  it? Sep 08 06:26
seller_liar schestowitz: all patents does not promove nothing Sep 08 06:26
schestowitz quanta_: you mean lawyers? Sep 08 06:27
quanta_ a programmer can find patents useful as well Sep 08 06:27
seller_liar quanta_: for what? Sep 08 06:27
quanta_ obviously lawyers benefit as well thanks to the complexity of patent law Sep 08 06:27
quanta_ For example, my father is a veterinarian Sep 08 06:27
quanta_ and he was not satisfied with current systems for medical records Sep 08 06:27
quanta_ and how to keep them, search the, make them electronically etc. Sep 08 06:28
quanta_ so he developed and wrote a program (mostly  on his own, he hired a few guys to help though) Sep 08 06:28
seller_liar quanta_: but see, he does not live lonely , he ‘s need to use another ideas and need to use another people ‘help Sep 08 06:28
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quanta and went through years of work on everything without seeing a drop of profit Sep 08 06:29
seller_liar quanta: so , don work then Sep 08 06:29
quanta he patented his work, so that others couldn’t steal all of his work Sep 08 06:29
seller_liar schestowitz:sorry , I respect, but your father does not even to begin the projecty Sep 08 06:29
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quanta this is beneficial to him and others Sep 08 06:29
seller_liar soory roy ,is for quanta Sep 08 06:29
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quanta because it provides him with motivation to keep his software easily useable and to distribute it. As well as make it of course Sep 08 06:31
seller_liar quanta: what type of motivation, he does not work if wants Sep 08 06:31
quanta otherwise, some other individual or company could simply copy all his work, sell it, and distribute it Sep 08 06:31
quanta can you phrase that question better? Sep 08 06:32
quanta I don’t understand what you mean Sep 08 06:32
seller_liar quanta: you should know which all this value of this world is the WORK Sep 08 06:32
seller_liar quanta: sorry Sep 08 06:32
seller_liar quanta: if your father does work only once, and then he should receive money for one day Sep 08 06:32
quanta huh? yeah, the work is valuable. That’s why he should be allowed to protect it Sep 08 06:33
quanta work only once? Sep 08 06:33
quanta what do you mean once? Sep 08 06:33
seller_liar quanta: one time Sep 08 06:33
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quanta seems to me like he should make money whenever he sells his software, if he decides to sell it Sep 08 06:33
seller_liar quanta: example, Sep 08 06:34
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seller_liar quanta: a developer works in one day in some software , he should receive money for one day of work Sep 08 06:34
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quanta like salary you mean? because he’s being paid by a company? Sep 08 06:35
quanta what if he’s not paid by a company though? Sep 08 06:35
seller_liar quanta: do not work Sep 08 06:35
seller_liar quanta: we are free Sep 08 06:36
quanta Not everyone can afford to work for free though. Sep 08 06:36
seller_liar quanta: it’s not work for free Sep 08 06:36
seller_liar quanta: work only when is paid for this Sep 08 06:36
seller_liar quanta: if you it’s not paid, do not work Sep 08 06:37
quanta What if you get paid by selling your software? Sep 08 06:37
quanta What’s wrong with that? Sep 08 06:37
seller_liar quanta: software is developed one time Sep 08 06:37
quanta so? Sep 08 06:37
seller_liar quanta: why receive more than one time of work? Sep 08 06:37
quanta books are only written one time. Sep 08 06:37
quanta Should all the profit then go to the person who prints them Sep 08 06:38
quanta and authors receive no royalties? Sep 08 06:38
seller_liar quanta: no , the person which prints should pay the author one time ,of course, the author have total freedom to want a lot of money Sep 08 06:39
schestowitz Books have copyrights; so does code. Sep 08 06:39
seller_liar quanta: but it’s one time ONLY Sep 08 06:39
schestowitz You can’t prevent people from chatting about something they read in a book. Sep 08 06:39
quanta Yeah, but you’re also not allowed to print the book just because you bought it Sep 08 06:39
seller_liar quanta: example Sep 08 06:40
quanta copyright protections can work too; it’s a matter of flexibility, but this distracts from my original question Sep 08 06:40
seller_liar quanta: the author writes the book one time only Sep 08 06:41
seller_liar quanta: mcgraw hill and other companies live a “lies empire” Sep 08 06:42
schestowitz They probably profit when the author dies too. Sep 08 06:42
seller_liar quanta: and every sand castle should be ruined Sep 08 06:42
quanta well, yeah, royalties probably end then if they didn’t before Sep 08 06:42
quanta but back to original question Sep 08 06:43
quanta how is programming math? Sep 08 06:43
schestowitz That;s no incentive to create. The dead person doesn’t allow existing people to be creative. Sep 08 06:43
quanta it does not definitively answer a question like math does Sep 08 06:43
schestowitz What patent? Sep 08 06:44
seller_liar quanta: every programming language have theories of computation ,which is based in math Sep 08 06:44
schestowitz Show me an example. Sep 08 06:44
schestowitz quanta: you’re obviously here to defend a river or maths monopoly. Sep 08 06:44
quanta maths monopoly? Sep 08 06:44
quanta Really, I’m more bothered by the fact that anyone could consider programming math Sep 08 06:45
quanta I don’t care much whether you copyright or patent stuff Sep 08 06:45
seller_liar quanta: lisp language is 100% theory Sep 08 06:45
quanta current patent system is known to be broken of course Sep 08 06:45
seller_liar quanta: c is too Sep 08 06:45
seller_liar quanta: patents SHOULD NOT exist Sep 08 06:45
quanta really, so there is precisely one way to say… parse text? Sep 08 06:46
schestowitz quanta: depends where. Sep 08 06:46
schestowitz But the idea of patents in general is challenged by some too. Sep 08 06:46
schestowitz Ever Nobel prize winners. Sep 08 06:46
quanta I don’t care about the patents. That’s not my original question. You guys brought that up. Sep 08 06:46
seller_liar quanta: text, language computation, chionsk theories Sep 08 06:46
schestowitz You can to challenge it. Sep 08 06:46
schestowitz *same Sep 08 06:47
schestowitz *came Sep 08 06:47
quanta true, if it’s math patents might not make sense, but that’s only if it really is math Sep 08 06:47
quanta which I’ve never heard any mathematician call it that Sep 08 06:47
quanta ever Sep 08 06:47
quanta a specific piece of software is not math Sep 08 06:47
quanta software USES math Sep 08 06:48
seller_liar quanta: every fact is a theorem Sep 08 06:48
quanta but so does physics Sep 08 06:48
seller_liar quanta: 1+1 Sep 08 06:48
seller_liar quanta: 10×10 Sep 08 06:48
quanta so? Sep 08 06:48
seller_liar quanta: but it’s uselles to call simple technices of theorems Sep 08 06:48
seller_liar quanta: should not be patented Sep 08 06:48
quanta … that doesn’t make it math. Sep 08 06:49
quanta It’d be silly to patent Newton’s laws of motion Sep 08 06:49
quanta but they still aren’t math Sep 08 06:49
schestowitz http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/educator… (watch refs) Sep 08 06:49
seller_liar quanta: phisycs uses math to prove ideas, without math, there’s no physics Sep 08 06:50
seller_liar quanta: physics is based in math theories Sep 08 06:50
quanta ummmm… not really Sep 08 06:51
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quanta_ well, more complex answer Sep 08 06:51
quanta_ is yes and no Sep 08 06:51
quanta_ physics is based upon empirical observation Sep 08 06:51
quanta_ math is the language used to describe it Sep 08 06:52
quanta_ to perform calculations Sep 08 06:52
quanta_ but physics is not math Sep 08 06:52
quanta_ similarly, neither is programming math Sep 08 06:52
schestowitz At a lower level, it is. Sep 08 06:53
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schestowitz That’s just a philosophical recursion now. You’re running around the same point. Sep 08 06:53
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schestowitz Applies maths is still maths. Sep 08 06:53
quanta it relies upon some mathematical facts Sep 08 06:53
schestowitz Owning it is restricting its application Sep 08 06:53
quanta applying math does not make something math Sep 08 06:53
quanta if that was so, way too much shit would be math Sep 08 06:54
schestowitz It’s locking down and preventing its use. Sep 08 06:54
quanta I fully agree that you should be allowed to use mathematical facts and techniques all you want. Sep 08 06:54
schestowitz If I think of 2+2, then multiplying that by 4 and dividing it by two, that’s maths. Sep 08 06:54
quanta But that doesn’t make what you do math Sep 08 06:54
schestowitz If I decide that only I can do this process of changing variable quantities, then I prevent other from doing this. Sep 08 06:55
seller_liar schestowitz: physics is experimental ,envolves works, physics ideas are  math ideas Sep 08 06:55
quanta physics ideas are a blend of mathematics and experiment Sep 08 06:56
schestowitz quanta: example, please? Sep 08 06:56
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seller_liar quanta: physics ideas =! real physics Sep 08 06:56
schestowitz Show me your dad’s patent so that we can criticise it. Sep 08 06:56
quanta for example, an object at rest will tend to stay at rest, and an object in motion will tend to stay in motion Sep 08 06:56
seller_liar sorry roy is for quant the text above Sep 08 06:56
quanta no math is required Sep 08 06:56
seller_liar quanta: logic,ideas Sep 08 06:56
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quanta logic is not necessarily math. :| Sep 08 06:56
seller_liar quanta: equality,comparasions = math Sep 08 06:56
quanta wrong Sep 08 06:57
quanta blatantly so Sep 08 06:57
schestowitz Is poetry patentable? Sep 08 06:57
quanta for example, we might call a border collie and a beagle both dogs, but that is not a mathematical distiinction. Sep 08 06:57
quanta *distinction. Sep 08 06:57
quanta I’m not terribly interested in whether or not it’s patentable. The point is that programming isn’t math. Sep 08 06:58
seller_liar quanta: logic is  ideas, it’s not property Sep 08 06:59
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quanta_ It involves math, but it isn’t math itself Sep 08 06:59
seller_liar quanta_: yes it is because without math the system does not exist Sep 08 07:00
quanta_ so? Sep 08 07:00
quanta_ just because you can’t do it without something doesn’t mean it is that thing Sep 08 07:00
quanta_ I can’t run my car without gasoline, but my car clearly is NOT gasoline Sep 08 07:00
quanta_ it just uses it Sep 08 07:01
schestowitz quanta_: programming is translated to binary codes. Sep 08 07:01
schestowitz 000101001011010101010101010101101 ADD 1010101010111010101010101010 …. Sep 08 07:01
quanta_ I know this Sep 08 07:01
schestowitz Is that math? Sep 08 07:01
quanta_ numbers alone do not make math Sep 08 07:01
quanta_ typing a string of numbers is not math Sep 08 07:01
schestowitz *sigh* Sep 08 07:01
quanta_ now, you can ask mathematical questions about it perhaps Sep 08 07:01
quanta_ you can define certain strings of numbers to be sets Sep 08 07:02
quanta_ and define operations on these objects Sep 08 07:02
seller_liar quanta_: what about the same object gasoline without gasoline it’s not gasoline Sep 08 07:02
quanta_ indeed, gasoline without gasoline is not gasoline Sep 08 07:02
seller_liar quanta_: it’s hardware ,is a bit diferent Sep 08 07:02
quanta_ and programming without math might not be so easy or make much sense or even exist Sep 08 07:03
quanta_ but that has nothing to do with it being math Sep 08 07:03
quanta_ for example… let’s say that we have the letters of the alphabet Sep 08 07:03
seller_liar quanta_: it’s math, all you use is math Sep 08 07:04
quanta_ a, b, c, d, etc. whatever Sep 08 07:04
quanta_ then lets say a+c=c Sep 08 07:04
quanta_ b+b=c Sep 08 07:04
quanta_ basically a is indexed to be like 0 Sep 08 07:04
quanta_ and z is 25 Sep 08 07:04
seller_liar indexing is math Sep 08 07:05
schestowitz quanta_: she me the patent/s Sep 08 07:05
quanta_ now the symbols have changed Sep 08 07:05
seller_liar addition is math Sep 08 07:05
seller_liar comparision is math ,variable concept is math Sep 08 07:05
quanta_ but let’s say we are curious about the properties Sep 08 07:05
quanta_ like is the operation associative? Sep 08 07:05
quanta_ is it commutative? Sep 08 07:05
seller_liar all this is proved ,but is so simple which does not really call them of “theorems” Sep 08 07:05
quanta_ is there an identity? Sep 08 07:05
quanta_ determining such things and proving them is math Sep 08 07:06
quanta_ show you the patent/s? Sep 08 07:06
quanta_ you expect me to know the number or something? Sep 08 07:06
quanta_ I can’t even remember what the patent was exactly. I was just pointing out that patents can benefit the creator of software. I didn’t necessarily say that was the best way to go about things. Sep 08 07:07
quanta_ hell, you might kind of have to patent just so someone else doesn’t rape you with their own patent first Sep 08 07:07
quanta_ which would suck Sep 08 07:08
seller_liar it’s not benefical ,if is , it ‘s a cost of destruction for people Sep 08 07:08
seller_liar it’s only benefical for the “owner” , but it’s destructive for all rest Sep 08 07:08
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quanta yeah, it might not be net beneficial, but this has nothing to do with programming not being math. Sep 08 07:09
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quanta you can ask mathematical questions about programming even Sep 08 07:10
quanta like, what is the computational complexity of this algorithm? Sep 08 07:10
quanta but that doesn’t make the program that runs the algorithm math Sep 08 07:11
seller_liar quanta: is math, maybe ,can be not only math,envolves arts Sep 08 07:11
quanta exactly, it’s not just math Sep 08 07:11
seller_liar quanta: envolve other sciences, Sep 08 07:11
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seller_liar quanta: but in theory can not to be patented Sep 08 07:11
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quanta it uses math Sep 08 07:11
quanta but it takes much more than math Sep 08 07:11
seller_liar quanta: but if uses math,no patents Sep 08 07:12
quanta and you don’t really have to care about the math the same way a mathematician does Sep 08 07:12
seller_liar quanta: and other sciences , no patents Sep 08 07:12
quanta no patents on the math part maybe Sep 08 07:12
seller_liar quanta: arts , no patents Sep 08 07:12
quanta but perhaps there might be some other element that is considered patentable Sep 08 07:12
quanta I’m not a patent lawyer Sep 08 07:12
seller_liar quanta: no! Sep 08 07:12
seller_liar quanta: that element exist because the other sciences and math, Sep 08 07:13
seller_liar quanta: remember ,arts =no patents Sep 08 07:13
quanta the point is, you have to show that the whole thing isn’t patentable Sep 08 07:13
quanta not that math isn’t patentable Sep 08 07:13
quanta because programming isn’t math Sep 08 07:13
seller_liar quanta: but envolves math ,no patents Sep 08 07:14
ZiggyFish are we still on this topic Sep 08 07:14
quanta so? Sep 08 07:14
ZiggyFish so your wrong Sep 08 07:14
quanta engineering mechanical devices involves math, and that’s patentable Sep 08 07:14
seller_liar quanta: in theory everything can not be patenteable Sep 08 07:14
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seller_liar quanta: patents are a human tyranny Sep 08 07:15
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quanta I think you can see where I’m going with this. Lots of things involve math and are still patentable. Sep 08 07:15
quanta so that alone is not enough. Sep 08 07:15
seller_liar quanta: a mistake Sep 08 07:15
seller_liar quanta: human tyranny Sep 08 07:16
quanta that things that involve math can be patented? Sep 08 07:16
seller_liar quanta:someone know the end since begining Sep 08 07:16
ZiggyFish anyway on a serious note, can someone please decrypt this javascript error message that IE gives me. Line 22 Char 17 Error Unknown runtime error, code 0 URL http://cwarn.org/ (not there is no javascript on that line and the script works in firefox and opera. Sep 08 07:16
seller_liar ZiggyFish: try konqueror ziggy Sep 08 07:16
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quanta basically, you’d kind of have to argue that nearly every patent ought to be null and void since so many will involve math in some way or another Sep 08 07:17
seller_liar quanta: no , there’s more reasons Sep 08 07:17
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quanta but as long as we’re clear on the fact that programming isn’t math, it just uses it, then I think I’ve gotten my point across Sep 08 07:18
ZiggyFish seller_liar: installing konqueror now Sep 08 07:18
seller_liar quanta: is not ONLY MATH, but is math Sep 08 07:18
seller_liar ZiggyFish: ok Sep 08 07:18
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ZiggyFish seller_liar: don’t you love it when windows gives you so nice messages Sep 08 07:19
schestowitz In theory, everything *could* be patented. Sep 08 07:19
schestowitz Mayths too, even individual words of English. Sep 08 07:19
ZiggyFish yeah, even air Sep 08 07:19
schestowitz But people set boundaries to increase INNOVA~1 Sep 08 07:19
quanta It is often concerned with things like user input, or displaying things and interacting with hardware. None of this is math Sep 08 07:19
ZiggyFish lol Sep 08 07:19
schestowitz And maths is a step too far. How on earth can a programmer do anything while 10,000 patents out there pertain to ideas? Sep 08 07:19
quanta Oh, I agree that people shouldn’t be allowed to patent math Sep 08 07:20
schestowitz Try to write a bloody codec. Sep 08 07:20
quanta Because math is essentially a form of truth Sep 08 07:20
quanta You ask a question and there is an answer, but only one Sep 08 07:20
quanta this is not the case in programming Sep 08 07:20
schestowitz You then have ‘patent pools’. How adorable! A code word for “gentlemen’s club”. Only rich company are permitted to participate in codecs. Sep 08 07:20
ZiggyFish quanta: not always Sep 08 07:20
seller_liar schestowitz: yes roy , again sorry for repetition, search for skinner “someone know the end since begining Sep 08 07:21
quanta given consistent axioms and some question, there is only one complete answer Sep 08 07:21
quanta partial answers don’t count Sep 08 07:21
quanta answers can be equivalent Sep 08 07:21
seller_liar schestowitz: except the phrase, search only for skinner Sep 08 07:21
schestowitz seller_liar: just look what some guy called Bill Gates said about it. Sep 08 07:21
quanta but then they are the same answer Sep 08 07:21
schestowitz The greedy POS is now defending them. Sep 08 07:21
schestowitz Being big, they want fences (IBM too) but it’s sheer hypocrisy. Sep 08 07:22
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schestowitz Richard Stallman: “Thanks to Mr. Gates, we now know that an open Internet with protocols anyone can implement is communism; it was set up by that famous communist agent, the US Department of Defense.” Sep 08 07:22
ZiggyFish lol Sep 08 07:23
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seller_liar schestowitz: companies are the rest of roman empire (along with some governments) Sep 08 07:23
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quanta computer programming does not to take some question then give a true answer by applying a set of axioms. It’s more like building a house than mathematical reasoning. Sep 08 07:24
seller_liar quanta: ideas =! action Sep 08 07:25
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quanta_ you ask, well, what do I want the house/program to do? Sep 08 07:25
seller_liar quanta_: ideas can not be patented Sep 08 07:25
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ZiggyFish seller_liar: konqueror doesn’t work, how do i get debugging information? Sep 08 07:25
quanta_ then how can anything be patented? Sep 08 07:25
schestowitz quanta_: bad analogy Sep 08 07:25
schestowitz Building a house is a physical process Sep 08 07:25
schestowitz There’s no duplication Sep 08 07:25
quanta_ sorry, I really ought to say designing a house Sep 08 07:26
quanta_ like architecture Sep 08 07:26
schestowitz If I built one house, can I share the work to produce a nation of houses? Sep 08 07:26
quanta_ not building Sep 08 07:26
seller_liar ZiggyFish: do you have gdv Sep 08 07:26
seller_liar ZiggyFish: *gdb? Sep 08 07:26
quanta_ my slip-up Sep 08 07:26
quanta_ if you design a house, you need not build it Sep 08 07:26
schestowitz Can architecture be patented? Sep 08 07:26
ZiggyFish I can install it, yes Sep 08 07:26
quanta_ and you can indeed share the design Sep 08 07:26
schestowitz Are people banned from implementing an arc? Sep 08 07:26
ZiggyFish (already installed) Sep 08 07:26
schestowitz Can a person be sued for making a round pool? Sep 08 07:27
quanta_ I dunno if it can. I don’t really care if it can. My point is that programming isn’t math, not that programming ought to be patentable Sep 08 07:27
schestowitz quanta_: don’t run away. Sep 08 07:27
seller_liar you use ideas to make physical actions Sep 08 07:27
schestowitz You brought up this example. Sep 08 07:27
seller_liar ideas it’s not physical actions Sep 08 07:27
schestowitz Architecture is geometry. Sep 08 07:27
quanta_ What? I brought this up because it involves using various ideas and design. Not because it is or isn’t patentable. Sep 08 07:28
schestowitz Mickey mouse monopoly? Know anything about it? Sep 08 07:28
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ZiggyFish seller_liar: any ideas Sep 08 07:28
schestowitz Or the inability to just draw a stripe because Nike might claim ownership? Sep 08 07:28
seller_liar ZiggyFish: have you installed gdb? Sep 08 07:28
ZiggyFish yes Sep 08 07:29
quanta what does this have to do with the question of how programming is math? Sep 08 07:29
seller_liar ZiggyFish: disable javascript in konqueror Sep 08 07:29
quanta I’ve already said. Math shouldn’t be patentable, because it’s like patenting truth. Sep 08 07:29
ZiggyFish seller_liar: done Sep 08 07:30
schestowitz quanta: on whose behalf do you approach this? Do you have a software patent? Sep 08 07:30
quanta nope, Sep 08 07:30
seller_liar ZiggyFish: try now Sep 08 07:30
quanta I came because I do mathematics work Sep 08 07:30
quanta and I thought it really fucking weird for programming to be called math Sep 08 07:30
quanta pet peeve Sep 08 07:30
schestowitz It’s higher-level maths. Sep 08 07:30
schestowitz Broken down, the two can be compared. Sep 08 07:30
schestowitz Language is semantics, devices are physics. Sep 08 07:31
ZiggyFish seller_liar: I see Sep 08 07:31
seller_liar ZiggyFish: but without javascript is ugly no? Sep 08 07:31
ZiggyFish yep Sep 08 07:32
seller_liar ZiggyFish: try to enable and update the page Sep 08 07:32
quanta schestowitz: continue please Sep 08 07:32
ZiggyFish are I see Sep 08 07:32
seller_liar ZiggyFish: what? Sep 08 07:33
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quanta_ goddamn connection Sep 08 07:34
ZiggyFish seller_liar: what am i meant to see Sep 08 07:35
schestowitz We’re twirling around the same points. Sep 08 07:35
quanta_ ?_? Sep 08 07:35
seller_liar ZiggyFish:Have been the problem resolved? Sep 08 07:35
ZiggyFish yeah Sep 08 07:36
ZiggyFish no Sep 08 07:36
seller_liar ZiggyFish: no? Sep 08 07:36
ZiggyFish yeah, sorry Sep 08 07:36
seller_liar ZiggyFish: good! Sep 08 07:36
seller_liar ZiggyFish: but try now with firefox and opera Sep 08 07:36
seller_liar schestowitz: hey roy   There are a the ideal license for volatile documents ? Sep 08 07:38
ZiggyFish are yes, I see, doesn’t look good without javascript Sep 08 07:38
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seller_liar ZiggyFish: try to use wine + IEs for linux Sep 08 07:40
ZiggyFish I have a vm running Sep 08 07:41
seller_liar ZiggyFish: in firefox 3 with linux works well….. Sep 08 07:41
schestowitz Bl00dy hell: http://gamer.blorge.com/2008/09/06/in-depth… Sep 08 07:41
ZiggyFish seller_liar: yeah (what I used to test it), opera on linux works too Sep 08 07:42
quanta god damn fucking connection #%#%#@$#$! Sep 08 07:43
quanta excuse me Sep 08 07:43
schestowitz quanta: documents? Sep 08 07:45
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seller_liar ZiggyFish: I’m not using windows sorry Sep 08 07:45
ZiggyFish opera is available for linux too Sep 08 07:45
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ZiggyFish1 sorry, (internet stopped working) Sep 08 07:52
ZiggyFish1 my site works in chrome Sep 08 07:59
lucian ZiggyFish1: hum Sep 08 08:00
schestowitz :- S http://phorolinux.com/ubuntu-810-intrepi… Why doesn’t Canonical pick one of the many wonderful themes from gnome-look? Sure, ti’s taste-dependent, but the default looks bland to me. Themes (looks) mean the /mos/ the people due to first impressions. Sep 08 08:07
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ZiggyFish LOL, I believe the definition of IE is “IE is a tool released by Microsoft to aid one in navigation to Mozilla.org to download the Firefox web browser. Sep 08 10:11
MinceR i tend to call it “backdoor with GUI” Sep 08 10:12
ZiggyFish lol Sep 08 10:13
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schestowitz Installer (drive-by) Sep 08 10:15
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*benJIman wonders if schestowitz will blog about http://www.microsoft.com/uk/getthefacts/lse.mspx in the light of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main… Sep 08 14:01
schestowitz Ha. _Again_? Sep 08 14:02
benJIman “• Sep 08 14:03
benJIman   One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days” Sep 08 14:03
schestowitz You’d think they learned from the earlier crashes. Sep 08 14:03
schestowitz Markets crash, planes crash (FAA)… well, but just the system. Sep 08 14:04
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trmanco London’s stocks exchange system crashed? Sep 08 15:38
schestowitz Yes, gimme 5 minutes and a post will be up. :-)) Sep 08 15:39
trmanco :) Sep 08 15:41
trmanco Microsoft ftw Sep 08 15:41
schestowitz It’s a .NET unsuccess story. Miguel will be happy. Sep 08 15:41
*trmanco just *Giggled* Sep 08 15:41
trmanco lets see what the Microsofties have to say about this crash Sep 08 15:47
schestowitz I did it in a rush, so it’s kind of yucky (the English), but here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Sep 08 15:48
trmanco thanks Sep 08 15:49
trmanco about this quote “One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days”, IMHO there is nothing 100% reliable Sep 08 15:50
schestowitz “But we had a good uptime”.   Compare that to other markets that almost never go down (never heard of it in Wall Street for example) Sep 08 15:52
trmanco what does wall street run? Sep 08 15:52
schestowitz I syndicate YouTube on “Novell”. This one came up just a moment ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F557Pv6iLw Sep 08 15:53
schestowitz trmanco: UNIX and Linux as far as I know (moving towards the latter). See the references at the bottom of my new post. Sep 08 15:54
trmanco I missed the references 12 and 13 Sep 08 15:55
schestowitz BBC gets slammed: http://www.itpro.co.uk/blogs/andrewm/2008… Sep 08 16:47
schestowitz http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/… Sep 08 17:01
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schestowitz Someone in GL has just found this gold mine: http://sco.tuxrocks.com/Docs/DRDOS/ Sep 08 17:26
trmanco hp://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Sep-07.html Sep 08 17:45
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schestowitz Yes, I wrote about it. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/… Sep 08 17:48
schestowitz It turns out that ITNews might have a link to IDG after all. Sep 08 17:59
schestowitz http://www.linkedin.com/in/liztay   http://www.google.com/search?sou… http://www.itnews.com.au/News/8… Sep 08 17:59
trmanco I’ve just started reading my feeds, so I haven’t had a chance to read BN’s feed yet :P Sep 08 18:00
MinceR http://troopers.fi/~kemmler/epic/macminiupgrade.jpg Sep 08 18:07
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PetoKraus lol, MinceR Sep 08 18:09
schestowitz Today: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10034496-16.html “I’m an Apple fan. I have been spending a lot of money on Apple products for years. But I’m also in the software business, and can’t imagine treating my own partners as poorly as Apple apparently treats its developer partners.” Sep 08 18:10
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cj schestowitz: thanks Sep 08 18:23
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*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@93.102.65.184.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 08 20:26
Tallken schestowitz: you there? Sep 08 20:48
schestowitz Yes, what’s up? Sep 08 20:48
Tallken gotta go, nothing special Sep 08 20:53
Tallken talk to you later :) Sep 08 20:53
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trmanco lol Sep 08 20:56
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*lucian is now known as seller_liar Sep 08 20:58
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tessier_ TradElect, the Microsoft .Net based trading platform for the London Stock Exchange was offline for about seven hours, meaning that their 5-nines SLAs are shot for approximately the next 100 years. The TradElect system was launched back in June of 2007 and was designed for increased speed and system capacity Sep 08 21:00
tessier_ You guys hear about that? Sep 08 21:00
tessier_ http://news.google.com/news?q=tradelect… Sep 08 21:00
schestowitz I’ being challenged about it. Sep 08 21:00
MinceR yeah, schestowitz has written an article on it Sep 08 21:00
tessier_ Should be some good fun to poke there Sep 08 21:01
schestowitz Can it be confirmed which layer of the stack is to blame? Sep 08 21:01
MinceR that’s what a microsoft fanboy would say ;) Sep 08 21:01
tessier_ The LSE said the system had been hit by a “connectivity issue” and insisted that the problem did not lie with its flagship TradElect trading platform. Sep 08 21:02
schestowitz Are any other systems in London affected by network issues? Sep 08 21:02
schestowitz BTW I have some maintenance work done here tomorrow, so I’ll be offline for half a day. Sep 08 21:02
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 08 21:20
ZiggyFish hey schestowitz are you ther Sep 08 21:22
ZiggyFish http://www.linuxjournal.com/cont… Sep 08 21:24
ZiggyFish Pointless Patents Sep 08 21:24
ZiggyFish The software giant applied for the patent in 2005, and was granted it on August 19, 2008. US patent number 7,415,666 describes “a method and system in a document viewer for scrolling a substantially exact increment in a document, such as one page, regardless of whether the zoom is such that some, all or one page is currently being viewed”. Sep 08 21:24
ZiggyFish (Micrsoft) Sep 08 21:24
*macabe has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) Sep 08 21:25
ZiggyFish This is worse than Amazon’s one-click-checkout. Who’s gonna be the first to patent how to pinch a turd? Sep 08 21:27
tessier_ “Method for dilating  annular cutting device for the purpose of separating waste from the producer” Sep 08 21:28
MinceR lol Sep 08 21:29
ZiggyFish lol Sep 08 21:29
ZiggyFish reading some commnets Sep 08 21:29
ZiggyFish I’m going to patent sexual intercourse now.   That’s right. Putting penis into vagina and thrusting in and out until ejaculation was my idea. So now I must be paid royalties whenever somebody engages in copulation. I will soon have more money than even Gates…yes. So go on guys and mount your girlfriends while I laugh all the way to the bank. Sep 08 21:30
MinceR mount /dev/gf0? Sep 08 21:31
ZiggyFish heheheh Sep 08 21:32
ZiggyFish more like mount /dev/gf5 ;) Sep 08 21:33
MinceR :) Sep 08 21:34
ZiggyFish what about this one Sep 08 21:39
ZiggyFish IBM Tries to Patent Making Money from Patents <http://blogs.wsj.com/bizte…> Sep 08 21:39
ZiggyFish Yes, IBM appears to be trying to get a patent for making money from patents. What’s funny about this patent is that it’s triggered a debate: Is this just another absurd attempt to profit from something everybody does (like this now-withdrawn application for a patent on outsourcing)? Or is this application part of a benevolent plan to prevent others from profiting from absurd patents? Sep 08 21:40
ZiggyFish which is true Sep 08 21:40
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*dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 08 23:35
dsmith_ http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS29… Sep 08 23:35
dsmith_ Lenovo ditches Linux Sep 08 23:35
*trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”) Sep 08 23:52
cj eep.  no more linux on lenovo?  That’s too bad.  I was pretty impressed with my experience. Sep 08 23:55
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