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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 2nd, 2009 - Part 3


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MinceRoiaohm: is there any company on earth whose conduct you disapprove of? :>Apr 02 13:38
Narcissuslet me put it simply for you.Apr 02 13:38
schestowitzWordPress does not commentsApr 02 13:39
NarcissusStop doing whatever you are doing to Wordpress blogs.Apr 02 13:39
NarcissusIt is not useful.Apr 02 13:39
NarcissusIt is just annoying.Apr 02 13:39
schestowitzI'm not doing anything to themApr 02 13:39
Narcissus*sigh*Apr 02 13:39
schestowitzAre you talking about pingbacks?Apr 02 13:39
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schestowitzWordPress pings cited blogs when a new post is madeApr 02 13:39
schestowitzLike me... I get notified when a blog links to usApr 02 13:40
schestowitzThat's how it functionsApr 02 13:40
NarcissusI don't get notifications. I get comments.Apr 02 13:40
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Narcissus90% of which are porn-spam.Apr 02 13:40
schestowitzFrom this IP??Apr 02 13:40
oiaohmMinceR: when they do illegal I disapprove of.  When they break clearly define terms then I have grounds to disapprove as well.Apr 02 13:40
schestowitzNarcissus: how long has this gone on for?Apr 02 13:40
Narcissusschestowitz: from that and about 30 other IP'sApr 02 13:40
oiaohmProblem is the different define of evil is just a person point of view.Apr 02 13:40
Narcissusschestowitz: about a monthApr 02 13:40
NarcissusI have also had innumerous amount of spam on a forum of mine containing similar content on the same subnetApr 02 13:41
schestowitzCould there be another site on the same IP?Apr 02 13:41
NarcissusNoApr 02 13:41
oiaohmSolution is a more clear define what is normally regulations on the industiry to protect end users MinceR.  Not exactly hating google.  There are a lot more in the same field doing worse.Apr 02 13:42
MinceRoiaohm: what if they took over your country and changed the law?Apr 02 13:42
NarcissusI own the IP address of my blog.Apr 02 13:42
MinceRs/law/laws/Apr 02 13:42
schestowitzhttp:// -> Apache is working on your cPanelApr 02 13:42
MinceRsay, enslaving you legally? :>Apr 02 13:42
*schestowitz looking at siteApr 02 13:44
schestowitzNarcissus: I'm checking to see if there is something awry in my homedirApr 02 13:44
oiaohmMinceR: How can they do that if people resist it.   Force but to use force you need  people to follow.   Evil does not happen in lots of cases without other people letting it.Apr 02 13:44
schestowitzI've always run fully patched WordPressApr 02 13:44
oiaohmIts like the evil of lending houses without any real requirement to pay back that blew up.Apr 02 13:45
schestowitzAnd I can't find any indication of anything nastyApr 02 13:45
oiaohmThat could only happen due to lack of regulation MinceR.Apr 02 13:45
MinceRoiaohm: most people don't resistApr 02 13:45
oiaohmNo point hating google if you are not pushing for the correct regulation.Apr 02 13:45
MinceRif you religiously believe in laws, that is.Apr 02 13:46
oiaohmNo I believe in the force of the people.Apr 02 13:46
oiaohmWe only get what we accept.Apr 02 13:46
oiaohmOver time people have got less likely to stand up for better.Apr 02 13:47
Narcissus /5Apr 02 13:48
oiaohmMost people are really a decrace to there family trees.Apr 02 13:49
MinceRso of all the people, on the lawyers matter? :>Apr 02 13:50
MinceRs/on/only/Apr 02 13:50
oiaohmRemember the earlies legal systems did not have lawyers they are a latter invention to help people who cannot produce good arguements.Apr 02 13:51
schestowitzNarcissus: I can't find any reasonApr 02 13:51
oiaohmEverything over time has got tainted from what is goals were.Apr 02 13:51
oiaohmEven lots of my reletations have let it happen MinceR.Apr 02 13:52
schestowitzIf I could, I would do something about it. What do you reckon is happening?Apr 02 13:52
MinceRwell, you can see where the glorious legal system has lead our society.Apr 02 13:52
schestowitzMiddlemen for talkingApr 02 13:53
MinceRand since laws perfectly define what is Good, there's no reason ever to change them, right?Apr 02 13:53
schestowitzAnd you otherwise looked down upon if you don't hire oneApr 02 13:53
oiaohmI never said laws are perfect.Apr 02 13:53
schestowitzOr you must face a professional spinnerApr 02 13:53
NarcissusI believe that there is some kind of spam botnet, that may or may not be, directly targetting my blog for spamming purposes. It's not actually doing anything. It's just annoying me.Apr 02 13:53
MinceRyet you only consider laws to determine what is rightApr 02 13:53
schestowitzBut it 'makes' jobsApr 02 13:54
MinceRschestowitz: and they've made themselves indispensable.Apr 02 13:54
schestowitzNarcissus: I appreciate you raising thisApr 02 13:54
oiaohmNo we as a people determin what is right.  Laws are ment to exist to enforce what is right.Apr 02 13:54
oiaohmOver time that has been lost.Apr 02 13:54
schestowitzThis would, under some circumstances, suggest that this shared server was maybe compromisedApr 02 13:54
MinceRnow we have a system that isn't one bit more right than it ever was, but at least we get to pay lawyers in the process.Apr 02 13:54
schestowitzBut I fail to see evidence of this and I'm still lookingApr 02 13:54
schestowitzIt's a shared hostApr 02 13:54
schestowitzWe've always had software up to date and never any problem, which leaves me wondering where to look.Apr 02 13:55
oiaohmCurrent system is more likely to give incorrect judgements than than some of the old systems.Apr 02 13:55
oiaohmSimple due to the cost.Apr 02 13:55
schestowitzMinceR: same with the patent system and lawyersApr 02 13:55
MinceRand that's exactly why it's wrong to define "good := legal"Apr 02 13:55
oiaohmOld days going before a king or something cost nothing.Apr 02 13:55
schestowitzYou can't write a patent on your own 'invention'Apr 02 13:55
schestowitzPeople make a fortune out of people who THINK they defend themselvesApr 02 13:56
MinceRso you can't really just follow laws to fulfill the goal of "do no evil"Apr 02 13:56
schestowitzWinners: lawyers, trolls, monopoliesApr 02 13:56
schestowitzLosers: inventors, SMEs, productivityApr 02 13:56
schestowitzMinceR: they dropped do no evilApr 02 13:56
schestowitzI thinkApr 02 13:56
schestowitzThe Asay fanboi wrote about it the other dayApr 02 13:56
schestowitzSomething about them getting more evil.Apr 02 13:57
oiaohmIf a clear define of what is evil is not made by people google and others cannot correctly follow the do no evil without getting it wrong for some people and right for others.Apr 02 13:57
NarcissusOkay, thank you for looking into this schestowitz. I will continue to search around.Apr 02 13:57
MinceRasay has his own fanboys now?Apr 02 13:57
MinceRit's very metaApr 02 13:57
schestowitzNarcissus: please keep in touchApr 02 13:57
schestowitzLike, if you find out what's happeningApr 02 13:57
schestowitzI see that your site is pretty newApr 02 13:57
schestowitzComment spam is normalApr 02 13:57
oiaohmRegulation is normally about writing clear defines to be followed then enforcing them.Apr 02 13:57
schestowitzMaybe I state the obvious, so pardon meApr 02 13:57
schestowitzBoycottNovell gets lots of spam per dayApr 02 13:57
MinceRoiaohm: they're so far from "no evil" that the problem you're talking about isn't even close.Apr 02 13:58
schestowitzI don't even bother chasing it, I just delete itApr 02 13:58
MinceRand one can't codify a general decision for everything in advanceApr 02 13:58
oiaohmWhat do you class that good does that is evil MinceRApr 02 13:58
MinceRthat's why laws are doomed to failApr 02 13:58
oiaohmgood/googleApr 02 13:58
schestowitzMinceR: Asay is well respected in the "open source" (i.e. MAc+Safari+community edition on some server) communityApr 02 13:58
MinceRthe solution is simple: make informed decisions _with good intentions_.Apr 02 13:58
oiaohmNot trying will for sure fail.Apr 02 13:59
schestowitzSorry, that was poorly phrasedApr 02 13:59
schestowitzBut you get the picture. To them, "Linux" is "Cheap" and OSS is a marketing routineApr 02 13:59
MinceRschestowitz: oh, the Please Steal Our Code, Steve Jobs! community.Apr 02 13:59
oiaohmProblem becomes again good intentions from who point of view.Apr 02 13:59
schestowitzNot reallyApr 02 13:59
schestowitzhe doesn't advocate BSDApr 02 13:59
schestowitzBut he shelteres Apple as though it's a OSS companyApr 02 14:00
MinceRoh, so it's only "open source" to the extent of FLOSS works they've ripped off.Apr 02 14:00
MinceRthe classic apple "you've done everything for us, now die!" viewpoint of FLOSS.Apr 02 14:00
schestowitzMicrosoft has just found an answer to Google: brainwash. 02 14:01
schestowitzFinancial crisis explained using an analogy: 02 14:02
MinceRi hope m$ won't merge with the cult of $cientology :>Apr 02 14:02
schestowitzWhy not?Apr 02 14:03
schestowitzYou can then hit two birds with one stoneApr 02 14:03
schestowitzRemember that Microsoft says "Jihad" when it refers to competition. Gates says Jihad tooApr 02 14:03
oiaohmIts like the guy running Auschwitz killing jews painlessly with gas was not evil compared to his other options.  Refuse die and have someone else do it,  Kill them painfully.  MinceR.Apr 02 14:03
MinceRand hitler was good once he seized power, since he could do everything legallyApr 02 14:04
MinceRright?Apr 02 14:04
oiaohmEvil is completely linked to your point of view at the time you make judgement.Apr 02 14:04
oiaohmNo MinceRApr 02 14:04
oiaohmWithout population support Hitler could not have done anything.Apr 02 14:05
MinceRso he's innocentApr 02 14:05
MinceRthat's newApr 02 14:05
oiaohmNoApr 02 14:05
oiaohmHitler is not innocent.Apr 02 14:05
oiaohmBut neither are the people who followed him.Apr 02 14:05
MinceRit's not like people can be misleadApr 02 14:05
MinceRor lied to, or confusedApr 02 14:05
MinceRschestowitz: they'd be too powerful togetherApr 02 14:06
oiaohmAgain why can that happen MinceRApr 02 14:06
oiaohmEveryone has a little evil in them to look after number 1.Apr 02 14:06
oiaohmHumans are really a poor creature.  We love blaming the leader yet never taking responablity for putting him/her there in the first place.Apr 02 14:08
schestowitzNow that IDG has created a Linux blog it appointed a man who enjots flinging crap at it. Approved by MS? 02 14:09
schestowitzHitler had resistance whom he killedApr 02 14:09
schestowitzOr threatened, or drove awayApr 02 14:10
schestowitz   > oiaohm> Humans are really a poor creature.  We love blaming the leader yet never taking responablity for putting him/her there in the first place.Apr 02 14:10
MinceRthere's a huge difference between "a little evil" and what's google doing.Apr 02 14:10
schestowitzThat's a simplified viewApr 02 14:10
schestowitzPopulation can hardly access the publiuc arenaApr 02 14:10
oiaohmMinceR: a little evil from a lot of people can add up quickly into a very big evil MinceR.Apr 02 14:11
schestowitzBut it's true that there is no moral value in just critising what WASApr 02 14:11
MinceRoiaohm: yes, with proper leadership. :>Apr 02 14:11
schestowitzWhilst having no morality to PROTEST against the murder of Iraquis right now.Apr 02 14:11
schestowitzIraqisApr 02 14:11
schestowitzSo people have to take responsibility also for acts of implicit endorsementApr 02 14:11
schestowitzThat's why I support the people who cause chaos in G20 and LSEApr 02 14:12
schestowitzThey actually give a face to the publicApr 02 14:12
schestowitzShowing the politicians we ain't a bunch of marionettes like they view us :-)Apr 02 14:12
schestowitzSame with Novell BTWApr 02 14:12
schestowitzTo push this on topicApr 02 14:12
schestowitzWatch LinusApr 02 14:12
schestowitzCowardice AFAICTApr 02 14:12
schestowitzHe fears talking about politicsApr 02 14:13
schestowitzSo he snubs  and alienates GNU and RMSApr 02 14:13
schestowitzThen, he refuses to criticise NovellApr 02 14:13
schestowitzHe is being 'diplomatic' (meaning he puts money before personal believes and ethics)Apr 02 14:13
schestowitzGood fit for IBM and other moochersApr 02 14:13
schestowitzThat's why they call it "Linux", to repeat what I wrote in Bn this morningApr 02 14:14
oiaohmEveryone has a little evil even you at times schestowitzApr 02 14:14
ToreadorVampireschestowitz> Woah, "Microsoft has just found an answer to Google: brainwash."  Advertising != "brainwash" - be careful of your word choice there :pApr 02 14:14
schestowitzThey like you as long as you sing "heil sieg heil" to the sound of the Federal Reserve at al.Apr 02 14:14
schestowitzConsumption and all...Apr 02 14:14
schestowitzI don't want to step on the Law here... Apr 02 14:15
schestowitz(Godwin)Apr 02 14:15
schestowitzToreadorVampire: it isApr 02 14:15
schestowitzIn a awayApr 02 14:15
schestowitzAdvertising is propagandaApr 02 14:15
schestowitz=PR (new name for it)Apr 02 14:15
schestowitzBrainwash and propaganda are similar, one is gentlerApr 02 14:16
schestowitzBrain wash... doesn't mean removal of memories but also insertions of someApr 02 14:16
MinceRschestowitz: oiaohm has already triggered that Law.Apr 02 14:16
schestowitzUmberlla might be "mind control"Apr 02 14:16
schestowitzMicrosoft, internal document: "Mind Control: To control mental output you have to control mental input.  Take control of the channels by which developers receive information, then they can only think about the things you tell them.  Thus, you control mindshare!"Apr 02 14:16
schestowitzFrom Comes vs MS: 02 14:16
oiaohmFunny that IDC are trying to start a new Linux hate point up.  Current Linux Hater and redux are slowing down in there posts.Apr 02 14:17
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, IDC must get some traffic or dieApr 02 14:17
schestowitzSo it provokes Linux usersApr 02 14:17
schestowitzAnd firefox tooApr 02 14:17
ToreadorVampireHmm, but by that token it's not too hard to apply the "propaganda" label to the whole of BN :sApr 02 14:17
schestowitzRemember the "Firefox is already dead" utter BS?Apr 02 14:17
schestowitzSure, sure.. Firefox still gaining... but IDG would tell you that "it's already dead"Apr 02 14:17
schestowitzAnd some people fed those trollsApr 02 14:17
schestowitzToreadorVampire: the press tooApr 02 14:18
schestowitzThe mistake is making a distinctionApr 02 14:18
schestowitzBetween brainwash, information, marketing, mind control...Apr 02 14:18
schestowitzIt's like comparing the words "good", "excellent", "splendid", "superb" and "fantastic"Apr 02 14:19
MinceRIDG is already dead. ;)Apr 02 14:19
ToreadorVampireRight - but ... what I'm trying to say is that you have applied a negative term to an activity that Microsoft is taking ...Apr 02 14:19
schestowitzMinceR: yes, that's why it calls other things deadApr 02 14:19
ToreadorVampire... yet that activity is basically the same as your primary activityApr 02 14:19
schestowitzThey'll kill their credibility (already low) this wayApr 02 14:19
ToreadorVampire... which in my dictionary shares a definition with "shooting yourself in the foot"Apr 02 14:19
schestowitzThen we can treat them like The RegisterApr 02 14:19
schestowitzOr even the "Gutter press" which is THE Inquirer (they call themselves gutter press)Apr 02 14:20
oiaohmMinceR remember the saying Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.   Problem is no matter how good intentioned you start out.  Over time absolute power can eat up all your good sides.Apr 02 14:20
schestowitzToreadorVampire: I did apply it negatively because I perceive it as suchApr 02 14:20
schestowitzMarketing is a junk marketApr 02 14:20
schestowitzAnd it's excempt from taxApr 02 14:20
MinceRpower only corrupts if you aren't ready to handle it properlyApr 02 14:20
schestowitzIt's more useless than lawyersApr 02 14:21
MinceRmost humans aren't.Apr 02 14:21
schestowitzA one-trillion-dollar/year industry in the USApr 02 14:21
MinceR"power corrupts. absolute power is kind of neat."Apr 02 14:21
schestowitzWell, USED to be... prior to bubble collapsingApr 02 14:21
schestowitzMarketing is a case of PEOPLE PAYING TO BE DECEIVEDApr 02 14:21
schestowitzMinceR: heheApr 02 14:21
schestowitzMurdoch knowsApr 02 14:21
schestowitzMaybe he'll drown in a tub somewhere..Apr 02 14:22
MinceR:)Apr 02 14:22
oiaohmMinceR: how do you pick a person who can have absolute power and not be consumed by it.Apr 02 14:22
schestowitzHe helped the mass killing of many people.Apr 02 14:22
MinceRoiaohm: it isn't trivialApr 02 14:22
schestowitzBut he kills with the pen and the inkApr 02 14:22
schestowitzOr word or mouthApr 02 14:22
MinceRi'd pick myself, i might be able to handle it... though that might consist mostly of inaction.Apr 02 14:22
oiaohmIt is really.  A person who truly does not want the power in the first place MinceR.Apr 02 14:22
schestowitzNot with the guns... that they have stupid 19-year-olds to doApr 02 14:23
oiaohmWhen you think about the political system its all about getting the wrong type.Apr 02 14:23
MinceRoiaohm: i'm not sure that in itself would be sufficientApr 02 14:23
schestowitzSend em to Iraq... to fight for the 9/11 victims (never mind if Iraq and its children had nothing to do with ti)Apr 02 14:23
oiaohmIf you don't want it you don't use it unless it has to be MinceRApr 02 14:23
MinceRor not even thenApr 02 14:24
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MinceRor you're changed by getting it despite not wanting it in the first place.Apr 02 14:24
oiaohmIts basically the first test.Apr 02 14:24
oiaohmIf a person wants the power they are not there to use it.Apr 02 14:24
oiaohmFor good.Apr 02 14:24
schestowitz"The former director and CEO of now defunct sports betting site has pleaded guilty to racketeering charges related to running an illegal gambling operation and using money from customer accounts to support its operations, the U.S. Department of Justice announced." 02 14:25
schestowitzbring our the GI.... BallmerApr 02 14:25
schestowitz*OutApr 02 14:25
MinceRbut the ballmer's sleeping.Apr 02 14:26
oiaohmIts like giving a person unlimited money without them having to ever learn to manage it.   A person who stays rich respects money and the power it gives them.  Greed for power is a deadly sin.Apr 02 14:26
schestowitzThe DHS became a department of Microsoft after they had appointed Microsoft o head it, under BSA pressure (employees of BIll Gates' dad): 02 14:27
oiaohmIn the sence that normally people do end up dead because of it.Apr 02 14:27
oiaohmThink about if I could give you the power to recraete the world any way you saw fit any numbers of times you liked how tempting the more you used it would it be to abuse it for not important things MinceR.Apr 02 14:28
oiaohmIt not exactly having abolute power that destroys the person its using it.Apr 02 14:29
schestowitzThe Linux Foundation is now getting its own distro: 02 14:30
MinceRoiaohm: i don't see what's wrong with thatApr 02 14:30
MinceRi could create multiple different copies beside each other, could i not?Apr 02 14:30
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schestowitzThe Shill Shane O'Neill has just published "Waiting for Windows 7" in IDGApr 02 14:31
schestowitzMaybe I should toss all the IDG feeds alreadyApr 02 14:31
schestowitzIt's appallingApr 02 14:31
MinceRindeedApr 02 14:31
schestowitzI can use the time to stalk other news sources, just as I dumped CNETApr 02 14:32
schestowitzThey are all Microsoft fan press and it gets worse over timeApr 02 14:32
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schestowitzMaybe they just need the money and writing truth (as opposed to marketing) doesn't payApr 02 14:32
schestowitzOK, done. IDG in the garbage can now. It had links 100 articles a dayApr 02 14:33
schestowitzThe Register might get erased next because they have Microsoft turncoats like Kelly and Gavin Clarke insideApr 02 14:33
oiaohmOther problem people forget is people like hilter are made.Apr 02 14:33
MinceRthe only thing i read on Reg is BOFHApr 02 14:34
MinceRoiaohm: they're born? :>Apr 02 14:34
oiaohmHilter went out of his way to cover up his abused past.Apr 02 14:35
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oiaohmHilter is a great example why child abuse should not be allowed happen.Apr 02 14:35
mib_mmt9vshjhjApr 02 14:35
schestowitzHi, mib_mmt9vs Apr 02 14:35
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oiaohmYou can alter a person mercy to others with it MinceRApr 02 14:35
schestowitzHehe.Apr 02 14:36
schestowitzSomeone came to BN IRCApr 02 14:36
schestowitzFirst line was about "hitler"Apr 02 14:36
schestowitzYou scared him away, oiaohm Apr 02 14:36
MinceRnope, it was about "hilter" ;)Apr 02 14:36
schestowitzYesApr 02 14:36
schestowitzTyping habitsApr 02 14:36
schestowitzI didn't notice pApr 02 14:36
schestowitzPeople watch first and last letters mostly.Apr 02 14:36
oiaohmI had a repeating typo.Apr 02 14:37
MinceRwe have a minister called "Hiller"Apr 02 14:37
MinceRiirc he's the one who sends billions of forints to microsoft.Apr 02 14:37
MinceRfrom the taxpayers' money.Apr 02 14:37
oiaohmWe had one poor kid in my school that had the name for real Wat HillApr 02 14:38
MinceR"Do they speak English in What?"Apr 02 14:38
Omar87Alright guys, I'm back.Apr 02 14:41
Omar87So, what kind of evil are you talking about when it comes to Google?Apr 02 14:42
Omar87-By the way, I'm not defending Google itself, but I'm just curious-Apr 02 14:42
MinceReroding web standards, supporting censorship, helping out the MAFIAA, etc.Apr 02 14:42
schestowitzSomeone whom I don't know just mailed me this: 02 14:42
schestowitzMinceR: you're European, you'll be interested I thinklApr 02 14:43
oiaohmeroding what web standards.Apr 02 14:45
oiaohmchrome follows standards closely.Apr 02 14:45
MinceRall their webapps are aimed at specific browsersApr 02 14:45
MinceRgoogle maps randomly breaks on operaApr 02 14:45
MinceRpicasa reliably breaks in opera and tells me i should use another browserApr 02 14:46
oiaohmand have you tried doing something like that in pure standard code.Apr 02 14:46
MinceRthis is not what web standards are aboutApr 02 14:46
MinceRsomething like what? novel ideas like the <img> element?Apr 02 14:46
oiaohmOnly to find out no browsers run it.Apr 02 14:46
oiaohmThose moving frame bits google does is allowed.Apr 02 14:47
oiaohmby standard.Apr 02 14:47
oiaohmSo there is a little more there.  Its not just standard following.Apr 02 14:48
oiaohmWhat google does in a few pushs web engines into there weak points.Apr 02 14:48
schestowitzoiaohm: Google spreads Flash and ActiveCXApr 02 14:48
schestowitzalso DirectXApr 02 14:49
oiaohmThey are a point of view if you class them as evil.  I know a lot of MS people who don't class either Active X or Direct X as evil.Apr 02 14:49
MinceRwhat google does is target specific web browsers and throws you out if you dare use something elseApr 02 14:50
oiaohmFlash is also not classed by some groups as evil.Apr 02 14:50
MinceRwell, surprise surprise, some people are wrong.Apr 02 14:50
oiaohmThis is what I am getting at.Apr 02 14:50
MinceRoh, and this web policy will only get worse once chrome spreadsApr 02 14:50
MinceRthey'll lock firefox users out tooApr 02 14:50
MinceRif they have their way, chrome will be the new IEApr 02 14:51
oiaohmYou are aware that IE is still not certifed for secure transations.Apr 02 14:53
oiaohmIt had certification and it lost it.Apr 02 14:53
MinceRbut chrome does and that's all that matters and because of this everyone should use chrome?Apr 02 14:53
oiaohmSo does firefoxApr 02 14:54
oiaohmSo does konqApr 02 14:54
schestowitz < NSW schools OLPC program to present a $600 million bill for taxpayers > Shitobe is in it tooApr 02 14:54
oiaohmEven safari has cert.Apr 02 14:54
oiaohmOpera has not gone through the modern day process.  Of a code audit to get it.Apr 02 14:55
MinceRyou seem to be confusing "web standards" with "secure transactions".Apr 02 14:56
MinceRthey are two different things.Apr 02 14:56
schestowitzMore Worries About UK Libel Laws Leading To 'Defamation Tourism' < >Apr 02 14:57
oiaohmIn this case both are needed for most of googles applications.Apr 02 14:57
MinceRi'm sure google maps and picasa both need them direly.Apr 02 14:57
MinceRand actual security doesn't matter, only the certificationApr 02 14:58
schestowitzThe Inquirer is dying.Apr 02 15:01
schestowitzNick Farrell is almost the only person postingApr 02 15:02
schestowitzThe Register is taken over by MS-sympathetic lackeys.Apr 02 15:02
schestowitzNPD ANALYSTS at DisplaySearch reckon sales of netbooks will grow by 65 per cent, this year. < >. NPD measures US-only figures in a Microsoft-flattering wayApr 02 15:04
schestowitzChannel stuffing included in the figures, exclusion of small players, etc.Apr 02 15:05
schestowitzlike amd-linux said yesterday: "YouTube yanks music videos from German site" < >Apr 02 15:06
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schestowitzThis can't be true. Microsoft says Vista is a smashing suckcess: (Texas senator wants to ban Vista purchases)Apr 02 15:08
oiaohm  What do you know someone released real news on april 1.Apr 02 15:10
oiaohmThat is going to destroy lots of businesses that deal.Apr 02 15:14
schestowitzYes, did you see < NSW schools OLPC program to present a $600 million bill for taxpayers >Apr 02 15:14
schestowitzIt's like selling the country outApr 02 15:14
schestowitzSmoking in the Movies: Under-the-Radar Cigarette Advertising? < >Apr 02 15:16
schestowitz "Local television stations are increasingly open to product placement. The Meredith Corporation's "syndicated hour-long lifestyle program 'Better' (named in part after the company's Better Homes & Gardens magazine)" includes space for local stations to add in sponsored segments. The "three-to-five minute videos" have pushed products related to "child-care topics such as baby-proofing the home, instApr 02 15:19
schestowitzalling a car seat and visiting the doctor," for sponsors including State Farm Insurance, General Mills, General Electric, Johnson & Johnson and Kimberly-Clark."Apr 02 15:19
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oiaohmschestowitz: same artical I chased it to goverment source.Apr 02 15:22
schestowitzI posted information in BNApr 02 15:25
schestowitzIncluding backgoundApr 02 15:25
schestowitz 02 15:26
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schestowitzMinceR: Google shakes hand with MAFIAA: 02 15:27
MinceRhilight oiaohm about that :>Apr 02 15:28
MinceRi don't see a lot about google thereApr 02 15:29
schestowitzWrong paste. 02 15:33
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twitterTexas to ban Vista, ha ha, 02 16:22
twittersaw the link to M$'s continued Slog against Google and their funding of publisher's lawsuits.  Don't think Wikipedia will get any Encarta content at that rate.Apr 02 16:23
schestowitzSeen it, thanks.Apr 02 16:25
zoobab01can someone help dump this stream:Apr 02 16:25
zoobab01 02 16:25
zoobab01you need the win32 codecsApr 02 16:25
schestowitzI can never do Real. twitter ?Apr 02 16:25
schestowitzzoobab01: I only have bad codecs in KaffeineApr 02 16:25
zoobab01mplayerApr 02 16:26
schestowitzI don't think I have itApr 02 16:26
schestowitzWhat's the webcast about?Apr 02 16:26
schestowitz'reform'?Apr 02 16:26
zoobab01there are nice videos about swpats on 02 16:26
zoobab01yes "reform"Apr 02 16:26
zoobab01replacing P&L by R&DApr 02 16:26
zoobab01:-)Apr 02 16:26
schestowitzPoor trolls...Apr 02 16:29
schestowitzThe deform will make them bankruptApr 02 16:29
zoobab01nopeApr 02 16:29
zoobab01it will have no effect at allApr 02 16:29
schestowitzEven betterApr 02 16:29
schestowitzSo no-one gets upsetApr 02 16:29
schestowitzExcept those who were already upsetApr 02 16:29
zoobab01so trolls mosquitoes will continue to biteApr 02 16:29
Omar87schestowitz: Is IBM really going to swallow Novell?Apr 02 16:30
schestowitzOmar87: maybeApr 02 16:30
schestowitzNot yetApr 02 16:30
Omar87schestowitz: If that ever happens, I believe M$ will then simply become naked.Apr 02 16:31
Balroghello everyoneApr 02 16:31
Omar87Balrog: HiApr 02 16:31
schestowitzHi, Balrog Apr 02 16:34
Omar87schestowitz: What do you think>Apr 02 16:37
Omar87?Apr 02 16:37
schestowitzCheck out my new post and help spot typos (not proofread yet): 02 16:37
schestowitzI think it's pretty damning for Microsoft, and all based on truthsApr 02 16:38
schestowitzAnother conficker victim? "The gossip on Twitter suggested that the company's name servers were the target of aDDOS attack, though this hasn't been confirmed." 02 16:45
*anivar (n=anivar@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 02 16:45
schestowitzHi, anivar Apr 02 16:46
schestowitzNew version of KDE has just been released: 02 16:50
anivarschestowitz:  haiApr 02 16:52
schestowitzWhat's up?Apr 02 16:52
ToreadorVampireOoh, that's amusing - BECTA have advised educational establishments away from Vista/Office2007 :)Apr 02 16:52
ToreadorVampire(old news I guess)Apr 02 16:53
ToreadorVampireBut just spotted itApr 02 16:53
anivarschestowitz:  ODF alliance responded positivelyApr 02 16:53
anivarHello Arun:  Sounds good.  I will do a "write-up" (citation) for the award using the original nomination paper and additional information that has come to light in the subsequent email correspondence. I would then post this document on the web site and do a blog post on the citation. What is clear is that the original nomination paper got lost in translation in the press release, for which I, as drafter of the release, am solely responsible. I do hopApr 02 16:53
anivare this will clarify matters and sincerely regret any difficulties this has caused for anyone involved. Best,Apr 02 16:53
anivarMarinoApr 02 16:53
anivarMail From marinoApr 02 16:53
anivarthanks for pointing KDE announcementApr 02 16:54
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schestowitzToreadorVampire: yes, old news RE: BECTAApr 02 16:55
schestowitzThey are still corrupted by Microsoft thoughApr 02 16:55
ToreadorVampireMmm - well, I used to work in education (and I'm a Brit) - had a lot of contact with BECTAApr 02 16:56
schestowitz 02 16:56
schestowitzanivar: wonderful newsApr 02 16:57
schestowitzThey did the right think, as suggested in the first commentApr 02 16:57
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BalrogODF?Apr 02 16:58
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schestowitzOpenDocument FormatApr 02 17:00
Omar87 02 17:00
schestowitzA Linux Netbook Done The Right Way: the Sylvania g Netbook Meso < >Apr 02 17:01
schestowitzOmar87: yes, seen itApr 02 17:01
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Omar87;)Apr 02 17:01
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PetoKrausthe Xorg stack is bloody unstableApr 02 17:02
PetoKrausoh and I need to kill my router for some reasonApr 02 17:03
ToreadorVampire  €«  Interestingly - I know this agreement quite well - it was not mandatory, rather (when I worked at a School) we didn't use a "Microsoft Schools Agreement" - instead we just bought standard perpetual licenses for our MS softwareApr 02 17:03
ToreadorVampireBut we did look at the schools agreement and weigh up it's benefits/shortcomings when we made that decision - but at the time a WinXP and an OfficeXP license was so cheap it was silly to pay a recurring cost for licensesApr 02 17:04
*PeterKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellApr 02 17:05
schestowitzCheap it ain't.Apr 02 17:06
schestowitzNot for the chilldrenApr 02 17:06
schestowitzit's lockinApr 02 17:06
schestowitzTo Microsoft, this is money well spent/dumpedApr 02 17:06
schestowitzAnd teachers/parents need to realise this, too.Apr 02 17:06
schestowitzAdobe uses similar tacticsApr 02 17:06
ToreadorVampireMaybe, however making *changes* in that area is a lot more difficult than you think ...Apr 02 17:06
PeterKrausdon't get me started on photoshopApr 02 17:06
Omar87""I'm going to open up the company," he declared. "Closed-source licensing is killing the software business.€ It's€ a cancer. It's Pacman-like. It just gobbles up customer dollars."" ~ BallmerApr 02 17:07
Omar87what's that supposed to mean?Apr 02 17:07
ToreadorVampireSay a school was to switch entirely to GNU software (OS and productivity software) - it would invalidate a HELL of a lot of their staff's training, and teaching staff are already struggling to get to grips with information technology in order to make effective use of itApr 02 17:08
schestowitzheh. http://maratux.blogspot.c... (Microsoft uses git for version control)Apr 02 17:09
Omar87lol!Apr 02 17:09
ToreadorVampireAnd during that transition period when the staff are being retrained, what of the students' education?  Would you want to lower the quality of education for a year or two of high school students for the sake of switching to open source software?Apr 02 17:09
Omar87And GIT is Linus's invention by the way. ;)Apr 02 17:10
schestowitzToreadorVampire: it has a costApr 02 17:10
schestowitzThat's why they keep tossing cigarettes at schoolsApr 02 17:10
schestowitzIt's like a smoker saying, "well, I already did damage, so why stop smoking now? it's too hard and pointless."Apr 02 17:11
schestowitzOmar87: it's April 1st (Was)Apr 02 17:11
ToreadorVampireMmm ... I think the noise made by the "Hey!  Our children deserve a good education" crowd would be louder than the "But Microsoft are evil" crowd - and I think rightly soApr 02 17:11
ToreadorVampireAnd what do you mean by "tossig cigarettes at schools" btw?Apr 02 17:12
ToreadorVampiretossing*Apr 02 17:12
schestowitzAnother new AIR application for microblogging: 02 17:12
schestowitzGiving them temptations like kickbacks and gratis software to get children addicted.Apr 02 17:13
schestowitzYou needn't tell parents that  "But Microsoft are evil"Apr 02 17:13
schestowitzIt's nothing to do with MicrosoftApr 02 17:13
schestowitzJust non-Free softwareApr 02 17:13
schestowitzTurning kids to customersApr 02 17:13
schestowitzSame problem with Google BTWApr 02 17:14
schestowitzBill Gates: “They’ll get sort of addicted, and then we’ll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.”Apr 02 17:14
ToreadorVampireMmm - oh I agree that non-free software is bad ... just ... not bad enough to warrant some of the activism/pressure I see - especially when activists/pressure groups often aren't in tune with the needs to the people they are pressuring ...Apr 02 17:15
ToreadorVampireQuite simply, change costs, regardless whether it's change for the better or worse ...Apr 02 17:17
ToreadorVampireBut - change is happening :)Apr 02 17:17
schestowitzYes, graduaqllyApr 02 17:17
schestowitzThings like ODF, OOoApr 02 17:17
schestowitzNo need for retraining for OOo3.1 GUIApr 02 17:17
ToreadorVampireThe college where I used to work (yeah, I worked at a school first, then a college, although I'm freelance now) have just installed a suite of Ubuntu machines ... indeed, I was called in to give them a hand setting them upApr 02 17:17
schestowitzUnlike MSO, which also need h/w upgradesApr 02 17:17
schestowitzThat's a good startApr 02 17:18
ToreadorVampireschestowitz> Yeah - well, also - the Office 2007 GUI IMO was an awful choiceApr 02 17:18
schestowitzWhen Conficker or virus du jour devours some cluster and leaves them with a scathing experience, guess which side they'll expand next (even with aged machines)?Apr 02 17:18
ToreadorVampireEspecially because now the OOo GUI is actually more in-line with "what people know" than the MSOffice GUIApr 02 17:19
schestowitzToreadorVampire: it looks nice and give people the illusion they pay for a worthy upgradeApr 02 17:19
schestowitzLike New CokeApr 02 17:19
ToreadorVampireschestowitz> One thing I do notice though - is that the teachers still have trouble teaching using that Linux suite ... since there is a lot of tech stuff they know how to do on Windows but can't do on those Linux machinesApr 02 17:20
schestowitzThey can learnApr 02 17:20
schestowitzThat's what they doApr 02 17:20
schestowitzTeachingApr 02 17:20
ToreadorVampireYes, but that learning comes at the cost of the teaching of the studentsApr 02 17:21
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 02 17:21
schestowitzTrue.Apr 02 17:21
ToreadorVampireIt's *extra* learning that has to come out of the teacher's timeApr 02 17:21
schestowitzThat's the trap and the reason for EDGIApr 02 17:21
schestowitzYou know EDGI, right?Apr 02 17:21
ToreadorVampireNo, or if I do - I don't know it by that nameApr 02 17:21
ToreadorVampire/acronymApr 02 17:22
ToreadorVampireBut whilst currently the early-adopters are playing with the Linux machines - there are many who would be completely paralysed if you took away "what they knew"Apr 02 17:23
schestowitz 02 17:24
schestowitzThere are signs of Linux becoming more 'universal', but with Google and others in the picture it will never happen. (Linux Foundation takes over Stewardship of Intel's Moblin OS)Apr 02 17:24
ToreadorVampireOh - so - I do vaguely know EDGI - it's been about 4 years since I had any involvement in software purchasingApr 02 17:28
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ToreadorVampireNot 100% sure it was called EDGI then - but I was aware that we got MS licenses a lot cheaper than regular businesses couldApr 02 17:28
ToreadorVampire(as a school)Apr 02 17:28
ToreadorVampireIIRC something like €£17 per WinXP Pro (perpetual, non-OEM/transferable-to-any-machine-we-wanted) license, wheras retail was more like €£200 for the same thingApr 02 17:30
schestowitzTo make children addictedApr 02 17:30
schestowitzAnd teachers tooApr 02 17:30
schestowitzThere are interesting posts also about what Microsoft does to teachersApr 02 17:30
schestowitzJust found http://www.thebruisedbrain....Apr 02 17:33
ToreadorVampireWell - we always had a choice between MS and free software, and we considered the free alternative once or twice, but the "real cost" of switching to non-MS software was just too high to considerApr 02 17:34
schestowitzWhat if the Obama Administration Treated Detroit like Wall Street?  < >Apr 02 17:34
schestowitzToreadorVampire: short-term costApr 02 17:34
schestowitzLook aheadApr 02 17:34
ToreadorVampireschestowitz> Oh yes - but that short-term cost was greater than the resources we had or could borrowApr 02 17:35

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