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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 20th, 2009 - Part 1


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Balrog_well I want to protect myself here :/Apr 20 00:00
schestowitz 20 00:00
schestowitzThere's more like this, I investigated this in 2007Apr 20 00:00
taconealso posts are very short. kind of lazy advocate uh ?Apr 20 00:00
schestowitzBalrog: protect identity?Apr 20 00:01
Balrog_not exactly, but I don't want to reveal much about certain people I talk aboutApr 20 00:01
Balrog_(in public)Apr 20 00:01
Balrog_who knows who's looking at these logsApr 20 00:01
taconestop this and go pmApr 20 00:01
Balrog_tacone: I want to but "schestowitz: Balrog: better public"Apr 20 00:02
taconeit was for both. just pm himApr 20 00:02
taconeit will be faster than discussing here.Apr 20 00:02
schestowitzHow to make GNOME more like mac OS X? Infect it with Microsoft, says this person: 20 00:07
taconei read that.Apr 20 00:08
silentivmopeningApr 20 00:08
taconegood post btwApr 20 00:08
schestowitzBalrog: I seee...Apr 20 00:08
schestowitzSounds like a kickback programmeApr 20 00:08
taconei wish gnome-do was c++/pythonApr 20 00:08
schestowitzIf so, they should be slammed for itApr 20 00:09
silentivmI tried gnome-do once, couldn't stand itApr 20 00:09
silentivmeven though, at the time, I didn't know it was MonoApr 20 00:09
schestowitzThere's no room for marketing fear to sell stuff, but this is sometimes soneApr 20 00:09
schestowitz*doneApr 20 00:09
silentivmand I don't find Mac OS X that cool, eitherApr 20 00:09
taconegnome do is a strong product. period.Apr 20 00:09
silentivmyesApr 20 00:09
schestowitzBut Mac is CCCCCCCCCCCCOOOOOOOOOOOOLLApr 20 00:09
taconeunless some one comes up with something better, then that's here to stay.Apr 20 00:09
taconeMac sucks, i can tell you first hand.Apr 20 00:10
schestowitzGNOME-poohApr 20 00:10
taconegnome is better.Apr 20 00:10
silentivmmost of my friends swear for OS X, even though they have never used a MacApr 20 00:10
silentivmjust because they say it "looks cool", they want a MacApr 20 00:10
taconesilentivm: put them on macosx for 2 hours, they'll change their mind and go back to windows.Apr 20 00:11
Balrog_I know people who bash OS X and Linux when they haven't tried it recentlyApr 20 00:11
taconethere's a reason why windows rules mac.Apr 20 00:11
silentivmyepApr 20 00:11
Balrog_tacone: you'll find that's the case 2-5% of the timeApr 20 00:11
taconeif you have to choose between win jail and mac jail you'll often choose win jail.Apr 20 00:12
Balrog_and with app development, I can't ./configure, make, and make install on WindowsApr 20 00:12
Balrog_can do so on a MacApr 20 00:12
taconei was amazed to discover how much better was gnome. not jocking here.Apr 20 00:12
silentivmseriously, I guess I would feel locked in OS XApr 20 00:12
taconegnome just need to come out their stupid mentality. but it's already better.Apr 20 00:12
silentivmI don't like visual eye candyApr 20 00:12
taconetry to burn a cd on a mac.Apr 20 00:12
Balrog_tacone: you mean an ISO?Apr 20 00:13
taconetry to install iLife.Apr 20 00:13
taconeyes I mean an Iso. complete mess.Apr 20 00:13
silentivmbut then, I'm an *box user... :)Apr 20 00:13
Balrog_disk utility does it very easilyApr 20 00:13
taconethere are 2 ways to do that. and one doesn't workApr 20 00:13
taconethe other one sucks.Apr 20 00:13
Balrog_it can create iso as well, but calls it .cdrApr 20 00:13
schestowitz Brown.. :-(Apr 20 00:13
Balrog_I use Disk Utility to burn iso images all the time, works every timeApr 20 00:13
taconeBalrog: you're on macosx ?Apr 20 00:14
Balrog_some of the time, I am.Apr 20 00:14
Balrog_I use Gentoo other timesApr 20 00:14
taconeok. so you know the thing.Apr 20 00:15
Balrog_as well as Ubuntu and Fedora less oftenApr 20 00:15
Balrog_yes.Apr 20 00:15
taconeis that that better ?Apr 20 00:15
Balrog_is what better?Apr 20 00:15
taconemacosx. than gnome.Apr 20 00:15
taconeas a desktop environment.Apr 20 00:15
Balrog_heh, Mac OS X is a decent desktop environment because of a few features that others don't feel like implementing. Also because of Objective-C and Cocoa (AKA NEXTSTEP frameworks). There's GNUStep but it lacks maintainers. Yes, it has limitations, but it's much superior to windowsApr 20 00:17
Balrog_I use Xfce and GNOME otherwiseApr 20 00:17
taconehow does it compares to gnome ?Apr 20 00:17
schestowitzEmail applications < >. Linus still uses pine BTW. it has been EOLed for like a yearApr 20 00:17
taconeemmajane zomgApr 20 00:17
Balrog_Gnome is workable, but it compares to windows sort of. I prefer Qt over GTK+ thoughApr 20 00:18
schestowitzQt ftwApr 20 00:18
silentivmI like QtApr 20 00:18
taconenoApr 20 00:18
Balrog_KDE4.2 is nice, but it's still somewhat unstable :/Apr 20 00:18
taconehow does gnome compares to macosxApr 20 00:18
taconei never really gave macosx a real chanceApr 20 00:18
Balrog_meaning from user-end or programmer-end?Apr 20 00:18
schestowitzUbuntu gives GNOME an 'ugly' reputation it does not desere, IMHOApr 20 00:18
taconebut i find it's clunckyApr 20 00:19
taconeand not well thought.Apr 20 00:19
taconeend userApr 20 00:19
taconeusability.Apr 20 00:19
taconeschestowitz: ?Apr 20 00:19
taconeugly rep ? suse looks horribleApr 20 00:19
Balrog_well, for me it works well. Application-based switching is a big plus (for me)Apr 20 00:19
taconeand fedora is no better than ubuntu, beside a better wallpaperApr 20 00:19
balzacThey need someone who really understands software to be in a position of great authority at gnomeApr 20 00:19
balzacsomeone who can axe the dumb ideasApr 20 00:20
Balrog_cmd-tab to switch apps, cmd-` to switch windowsApr 20 00:20
taconebalzac: they should stop being stupid hackers playing the smart-ass of the townApr 20 00:20
balzactheir focus should be on usabilityApr 20 00:20
balzacdecorative aspects should be a much lower priorityApr 20 00:21
taconebalzac: it already is.Apr 20 00:21
Balrog_yes.Apr 20 00:21
taconebut they assume to know everything on itApr 20 00:21
taconeand assume usability to be a good excuse for lazynessApr 20 00:21
balzacwell, usability from the point of view of someone who really, really gets it.Apr 20 00:21
taconefor them usability is 3 to 5 options in each windowApr 20 00:21
balzacthat means, keeping the marketing people who say "make it like apple, make it like windows" out of the actionApr 20 00:22
taconeprogressive discovery is accepted but never implemented.Apr 20 00:22
Balrog_3 to 5 options .....?Apr 20 00:22
taconeyeah.Apr 20 00:22
schestowitztacone: I like the SUSE theme, not Ubuntu'sApr 20 00:22
balzacbut the problem of fluff-heads is endemic in software industryApr 20 00:22
taconehow many options have every preference window?Apr 20 00:22
tacone /kick schestowitzApr 20 00:22
Balrog_depends on where you look. If you compare 10.1 and 10.5, 10.5 has a lot more optionsApr 20 00:23
balzacthere needs to be a benevolent dictator to be the shot-caller, and I'm volunteering myself for the jobApr 20 00:23
schestowitz:-)Apr 20 00:23
Balrog_the 10.6 betas (which I'm not supposed to talk about :P ) have even more optionsApr 20 00:23
schestowitz  /keep tacone Apr 20 00:24
tacone:)Apr 20 00:24
balzacAlso, Mark Shuttleworth should appoint me to be his right-hand henchmanApr 20 00:24
schestowitz"(which I'm not supposed to talk about" ??/Apr 20 00:24
balzacI'd get stuff donApr 20 00:24
Balrog_heh, I'd dispute that :PApr 20 00:25
taconeohApr 20 00:25
taconeayatataApr 20 00:25
taconeor whateverApr 20 00:25
tacone 20 00:25
tacone 20 00:25
balzacI'd make a commitment to sacrifice one ego per day for the entertainment of allApr 20 00:25
taconethis is the project which the new notifications belong to.Apr 20 00:25
balzacbread and circus, breaking eggs, making omlettesApr 20 00:26
balzacfrench toastApr 20 00:26
Balrog_tacone: take a look at growlApr 20 00:26
taconethe project that should bring the new experience to ubuntu.Apr 20 00:26
Balrog_ 20 00:26
taconeBalrog_: not just notificationsApr 20 00:26
taconegrowl is not anymore mantained.Apr 20 00:26
Balrog_I've used this for a while, and Ubuntu seems to be doing something very similar.Apr 20 00:26
Balrog_growl for macApr 20 00:26
taconei know.Apr 20 00:26
taconeit's not about that.Apr 20 00:27
Balrog_it is maintained, I talk to the devs sometimesApr 20 00:27
schestowitzSELinux.........? A Secure OS For the Dalai Lama? < >Apr 20 00:27
taconei mean, that's the project that will be used to develop the new desktop experience.Apr 20 00:27
Balrog_yeah, a similar implementation for UbuntuApr 20 00:27
taconenoApr 20 00:27
taconenot only notificationsApr 20 00:27
schestowitz 20 00:28
schestowitzFound some while ago BTWApr 20 00:28
taconeyes schestowitzApr 20 00:28
taconethat's the project to keep an eye onto to know which projects has mark on desktop experience.Apr 20 00:28
schestowitzSounds like some Incan wordApr 20 00:28
balzac 20 00:28
taconebuddhistApr 20 00:28
taconesphere of sensesApr 20 00:28
balzachugo chavez assigned barack obama some homeworkApr 20 00:28
schestowitzBrilliantApr 20 00:29
schestowitzChavez is there to help the US understand it can't just boss the world, I gueeApr 20 00:29
schestowitzBTW, Chavez reads and openly crecommends ChomskyApr 20 00:29
balzacChavez is coolApr 20 00:30
schestowitz 20 00:30
schestowitzBalrog: Biden calls Chavez a "tyrant"Apr 20 00:30
schestowitzbalzac: gotta love the phoroApr 20 00:31
schestowitzAdd the caption..Apr 20 00:31
schestowitzObama: "me? Learn? lolz" Chavez: "wait until he gets a taste of *that*"Apr 20 00:32
balzacroy, there was a better photo which was removedApr 20 00:32
balzaca moment before, chavez came up while President Obama was seated and handed him the bookApr 20 00:33
balzacObama stood up, so as not to have Hugo standing over himApr 20 00:33
schestowitzHehe.Apr 20 00:33
balzacI tried to find that pic after it was taken offline in my browser cacheApr 20 00:33
balzacand then I found that it's not easy to find specific items in my FF cacheApr 20 00:33
balzacI asked specific questions in #firefoxApr 20 00:34
balzacI should try the mozilla irc serverApr 20 00:34
schestowitzObama is Apr 20 00:34
schestowitz6'1"Apr 20 00:34
schestowitzSo Chavez must be short and chubbyApr 20 00:34
balzacyeahApr 20 00:34
balzacbut Chavez could probably hit a baseball further than ObamaApr 20 00:34
balzacAnother time, a picture of Michelle Obama's behind got croppedApr 20 00:35
balzacshe was wearing some tight slacks which were riding upApr 20 00:35
balzacshe was with Carla Bruni, Sarkozy's womanApr 20 00:35
balzacso she was "tarting up" a bitApr 20 00:35
schestowitzMandriva 2009.1 RC2: Mandriva employs some of their best devs (KDE)Apr 20 00:36
balzacanyway, huffpo cropped itApr 20 00:36
schestowitzYuck.Apr 20 00:36
schestowitzSarko-mutantsApr 20 00:36
balzac?Apr 20 00:36
schestowitzDid you know that Sark0 banned voodoo dolls that look like him?Apr 20 00:37
schestowitzHow about stopping being such as arsehole? People would stop buying such dolls and there would be no market for people to find it worth making.Apr 20 00:37
balzacthat's funnyApr 20 00:38
balzac 20 00:39
balzacyou can see who has the bigger smile hereApr 20 00:39
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balzacChavez wore the power-tieApr 20 00:40
balzacRoy, you should get a blogging gig at Huffington PostApr 20 00:42
balzacbe their tech correspondentApr 20 00:42
balzacand then help shoe-horn me inApr 20 00:42
balzacwait, they don't even have a tech sectionApr 20 00:43
schestowitz:-)Apr 20 00:47
schestowitzI like exploring corruption. Other people dare not study or write about it.Apr 20 00:47
schestowitzgnApr 20 00:48
taconegnApr 20 01:01
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air_yaaaaay, i installed fglrx at lastApr 20 05:10
air_ts a cure for debianApr 20 05:10
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The_Mad_HatterRoy, the Dalai Lama's computer people are asking about a more secure OS after having had their Windows boxes hackedApr 20 06:33
The_Mad_Hatter 20 06:33
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schestowitzWhat's this about? 20 07:32
schestowitz "    "Bill Clinton Subconsciously Admitting That The Clintons Lie"Apr 20 07:33
schestowitzHehe. 20 07:34
schestowitzSun still wants to be bought: 20 07:54
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schestowitzNews & Observer about Red Hat in government: 20 08:09
schestowitz"How Novell is Killing SuSE Linux" 20 08:12
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MinceRgeekingsApr 20 09:11
oiaohmThere is currently a anti-trust case starting up in the EU.  IBM aquiring SUN would have reduced complainers.Apr 20 09:11
schestowitzTrue.Apr 20 09:14
schestowitzBut Microsoft is not the only problemApr 20 09:14
schestowitzMicrosoft will rot in due time because I very much doubt it can evolve to a busienss model where s/w is given away for free and services offered over the Web.Apr 20 09:15
schestowitzOh, no. hooked up with IDGApr 20 09:23
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schestowitzbalzac: (Ralph Nader says, "I Do Like Kucinich")Apr 20 10:02
schestowitzThe AP's Desperate Attempt To Outlaw Search Engine Links < >Apr 20 10:04
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kentmaschestowitz: hi Roy - do you know if anyone's done a really detailed analysis of the licensing of Android, and how well it fits with the GPL and so on?Apr 20 10:27
schestowitzI know one analysis that's purely technical. Android is not really Linux as people think of it.Apr 20 10:30
schestowitzkentma: Symbian published some criticisms of Android.Apr 20 10:30
iwmwit's google, isn't it enough to understand that it's not purely linux and licensing sucksApr 20 10:34
oiaohmNeither is Linux what people think it is any more either schestowitzApr 20 10:38
schestowitzInteresting talk: 20 10:39
iwmwforums.debian.netApr 20 10:40
oiaohmWhat really says a Linux has to have posix compadible system on it.Apr 20 10:41
oiaohmHopefully android will make distrobutions redefine what they are.Apr 20 10:43
kentmaI presume that Symbian's licensing isn't exactly GPL, either?Apr 20 10:45
oiaohmNokia is planing to release all of Symbian under GPL.Apr 20 10:46
kentmaIf that's the case, then I'd have no particular problem with it.  Symbian is quite nice, and is certainly good on small devices.Apr 20 10:46
oiaohmSymbian has not been designed to scale up to like netbooks.Apr 20 10:51
kentmaoiaohm: it originated running exactly such machines, though, the psion 3a,b,c, 4 and 5 and 5mx and 7 are all netbooks.Apr 20 10:51
kentmaI have a 4 and a 5mx somewhere.Apr 20 10:51
kentmaI mean "netbook" in the very small computer sense, of course, although series 5 onwards all had IP stacks.Apr 20 10:52
oiaohmRecent times development has focused on small screens.Apr 20 10:52
kentma5mx has a touch-screen, revo did too.  Not sure about the 7.Apr 20 10:52
oiaohmNot like the 9 inch + screens of modern day netbooks.Apr 20 10:52
kentmaAgreed, the psion ones were designed to be very small and "finger" powered.Apr 20 10:53
oiaohmsymbian could be fixed up for that market if development time goes in.Apr 20 10:53
kentmaThey were very good machines - early ARM devices.Apr 20 10:53
kentmaoiaohm: I think you'll find that symbian dominated that market before anyone else really recognised it...Apr 20 10:53
oiaohmLinux was first into the netbook market.Apr 20 10:54
oiaohmLinux and symbian were competors in the netbook market for a long time.Apr 20 10:54
kentmaoiaohm: not really - symbian netbooks were around many years ago.Apr 20 10:54
oiaohmSame with early Linux ones.Apr 20 10:54
kentmalook up the psion revo, 5mx and 7, you'll see what I mean.Apr 20 10:54
oiaohmOlder than that there are Linux ones.Apr 20 10:55
oiaohmsharp made quite a few Linux ones for the jap market.Apr 20 10:55
kentmapsions came out much earlier than the sharp devices.Apr 20 10:55
kentma 20 10:56
kentmapsion originally wrote games for the ZX81...Apr 20 10:56
iwmwnot zx80?Apr 20 10:57
oiaohmsharp one I am refering to is 1995 name Z something.Apr 20 10:57
oiaohmWhen Linux was really young.Apr 20 10:57
iwmwoh yeah... both zx80/81Apr 20 10:58
oiaohmIt was pre the name netbook kentmaApr 20 10:59
oiaohm 20 11:02
oiaohmkentma sharp was using there own OS like psion before the Linux line.Apr 20 11:03
oiaohmBoth had been competing over the same markets for a long time.Apr 20 11:03
oiaohmCommon myth over netbooks as psion being first with the design.   They trademarked the name of netbook in 1996.  Only they were using the name for netbook style devices until 2001.Apr 20 11:07
oiaohmIt was not that they were the only company making netbook like devices.Apr 20 11:07
oiaohmIts very simple to miss important bits due to computer term changes in computer history.Apr 20 11:08
oiaohmBasically netbooks have been around for ages and never took off until recently.Apr 20 11:13
oiaohmAsus when there took off they were expecting another Linux based netbook not to sell very much at all.Apr 20 11:16
schestowitzoiaohm: Symbian won't be GPLApr 20 11:23
schestowitzIt's EclipseApr 20 11:23
schestowitzits head said nasty FUD about GPLApr 20 11:23
kentmaoiaohm: I agree that sharp were doing pda-like devices a long time ago, but symbian ones date back to earlier than linux ones.  I think the first symbian (epoc) release was on the psion 3a series.Apr 20 11:24
schestowitz /s/said/uttered/Apr 20 11:24
kentmaschestowitz: if symbian won't be GPL, then it won't be any threat to linux.Apr 20 11:25
kentmaI don't know the details of android, but equally, it seems unlikely to have long-term staying power without everything being GPLed.  There is a real danger of "just another windows" if Google are not careful here.Apr 20 11:26
kentmaoiaohm: personally, I prefer the linux stuff, as it's more likely to be mutually compatible - I have an AA1, it's excellent.Apr 20 11:27
kentmaOne really good feature of my Acer Aspire 1 is that it makes an excellent mythtv client machine.  I can playback recordings from myth anywhere within the radius of my house wifi, which includes out in the shed etc.Apr 20 11:28
kentmamy psion machines could barely run Opera, however :-)Apr 20 11:28
schestowitzkentma: indeed, re: gplApr 20 11:29
schestowitzI can find you the zdnet uk interview where Symbian's top gun mocks the gpl in a way, using mythsApr 20 11:30
schestowitzGoogle's Andoid was already called "next Windows"Apr 20 11:30
schestowitzMicrosoft is very afraid of Android and it's periodically throwing FUD at it.Apr 20 11:31
schestowitzI sometimes think of Android as the iPhone-type platform (with online shop and DRM) but one that's built on LinuxApr 20 11:31
schestowitzThe EPO enlarged board of appeal mailed me twice this morning to confirm receipt of letterApr 20 11:37
schestowitzI think the EPO might not like BN after posts like this one: 20 11:37
iwmwlol, m$ is so addicted to patenting and now it has to pay for that :))Apr 20 11:43
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oiaohmpsion 3a was not symbianApr 20 11:46
kentma oiaohm:  it was epoc 16, psion 5mx was epoc 32.  Can't recall what the psion 4 was.  Symbian was the name later adopted by the consortium which took "ownership" of epoc.Apr 20 11:47
kentmasymbian is a consortium, epoc is really the OS.Apr 20 11:47
oiaohmepoc 16 is 16 bit version.Apr 20 11:49
kentmaafter the consortium took over epoc, they began to give it "symbian" serial numbers, but it's the same thing.Apr 20 11:49
oiaohmepoc32 and symbian share some common structs.Apr 20 11:49
oiaohmepoc is like windows 3.11Apr 20 11:49
oiaohmInternally nothing like NT.Apr 20 11:49
oiaohmOpps epoc16=windows 3.11 symbian=nt.Apr 20 11:50
oiaohmepoc32 was the change.Apr 20 11:50
kentmaoiaohm: symbian is the name of the consortium which took over epoc development.Apr 20 11:51
iwmwis symbian anywhere near nt nowadays?Apr 20 11:51
oiaohmIn tech difference iwmwApr 20 11:51
kentmaiwmw: symbian and/or Epoc was never that coupled into dos or windows.  It was independently developed for use on low-power devices.Apr 20 11:51
kentmaepoc 16 ran on the psion 3a,b,c, at that time, there were no low-power 32-bit processors around.Apr 20 11:51
oiaohmSharp used there own 16 bit OS in that time with epoc16Apr 20 11:52
*iwmw knows, programmed for symbian a bitApr 20 11:52
kentmaepoc 32 was the 32-bit version of epoc, the relationship was nothing like dos/nt.  Much more like 32 bit and 64 bit linux.Apr 20 11:52
kentmahowever, 32-bit small processors had a lot of capabilities which 16-bit ones did not, of course :-)Apr 20 11:53
oiaohmLot of structs and design in epoc16 are droped completely in epoc32.Apr 20 11:53
iwmwweren't they all arm?Apr 20 11:53
oiaohmThey took the chance to clean the bugger up at that point.Apr 20 11:53
kentmaiwmw: the psion 3a was arm, yesApr 20 11:53
oiaohmSo its not like 32bit linux and 64 bit Linux where the interfaces really did not change.Apr 20 11:53
oiaohmThe first version of EPOC32, Release 1 appeared on the Psion Series 5 ROM v1.0 in 1997.   Kinda late to the 32 bit party.Apr 20 11:55
iwmwnot too lateApr 20 11:55
kentmaoiaohm: the 5mx did very well.  Even Ericsson badged a version, as did someone else, I think, but I can't recall who.Apr 20 11:55
oiaohmacornApr 20 11:56
iwmwwhat processor epoc32 was run on?Apr 20 11:56
kentmaacorn badged a 5mx?  Are you sure?Apr 20 11:56
kentmaiwmw it was armApr 20 11:56
iwmwhehe... so they all are into armApr 20 11:56
oiaohmAcron designed arm.Apr 20 11:56
oiaohmAcorn designed the arm chip.Apr 20 11:57
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iwmwwasn't it ti who designed arm?Apr 20 11:57
oiaohmThey branded a few of them for demo strations of chips.Apr 20 11:57
oiaohm 20 11:57
oiaohmThey broke up in 2000 and become arm holdings and a few other companies.Apr 20 11:58
kentmaiwmw:  acorn's design team went all over - one of them went to Apple, some, I believe, ended up in the TomTom company.Apr 20 11:58
oiaohmLot went into arm holdings.Apr 20 11:58
kentmaacorn were amazingly influential - still are, albeit via tomtom, psion & arm holdings and so on ...Apr 20 11:59
iwmwwhat's arm holding?Apr 20 11:59
oiaohmThe design company of arm processors iwmwApr 20 11:59
kentmaarm holdings do the arm processor designs & licensing to other companies like TI, Intel and so on.Apr 20 12:00
oiaohmSo every arm processor chip out there started in there design rooms.Apr 20 12:00
kentmaoiaohm: which includes most smartphones on the planet...Apr 20 12:00
oiaohm  This has to be one of Acorn screwups.Apr 20 12:00
iwmwwow... i always thought that it's ti who designed arm... but now reading wiki it's AcornApr 20 12:00
oiaohmWho wants a case custerd yellow.Apr 20 12:00
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kentmaoiaohm: hard to say, really :-)Apr 20 12:02
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kentmai used to have a Pace DTV set top box, too, but that was a long time ago.Apr 20 12:04
oiaohmBasically ever since 32 bit netbooks Linux and symbian have been facing off against each other.Apr 20 12:04
schestowitzI've just realised that Thursday will be sweet not only because of Ubuntu 9.04: 20 12:05
oiaohmHopefully the fight between each of them goes well into the future.Apr 20 12:05
kentmaoiaohm: linux will win, in my view, because of its GPL.  If the symbian consortium are serious about taking on linux, then they must GPL, which they're not doing.  They've lost, it's just a question of time, imo.Apr 20 12:06
oiaohmSymbian consortium don't really exist.Apr 20 12:07
oiaohmAny more.Apr 20 12:07
oiaohmIts completely nokia.Apr 20 12:07
oiaohmYes nokia owns 100 percent of Symbian consortium.Apr 20 12:08
kentmaoiaohm: indeed.  Nokia might sell it in the future, though, or find other investors.Apr 20 12:12
oiaohmIts a bit like AMD releasing ATI specs.Apr 20 12:13
oiaohmLegal audit of source has to be done.Apr 20 12:13
oiaohmNokia seams to be talking about full release middle of this year.Apr 20 12:14
oiaohmThat could be a little late against linux.Apr 20 12:14
magentarSun Microsystems, Inc. (NASDAQ:JAVA - News) and Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ:ORCL - News) announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under which Oracle will acquire Sun common stock for $9.50 per share in cash.Apr 20 12:35
schestowitzoiaohm: just remember that Symbian is not GPLApr 20 12:48
schestowitzYou said something like that earlier and it's a misrepresentation of fact that I find riskyApr 20 12:48
schestowitzI perceive Symbian as a proponent od DRMApr 20 12:48
schestowitzAlso, as you may recall (and kentma would know this), Symbian is behinf the abysmal case in the UK which soert of legalises software patentsApr 20 12:48
schestowitzThey had the DLL thing "improve" the performance of some computer.Apr 20 12:49
schestowitzThis Symbian ruling in the UK may already contaminate continental Europe with sw patents (they cite it)Apr 20 12:49
schestowitzkentma, oiaohm Nokia's results last week showed profit falling 90% (year-to-year, quarterly)Apr 20 12:50
kentmaschestowitz: I recall the symbian ruling - it was a terrible moment,  I was not impressed.Apr 20 12:50
kentmaschestowitz: that's a very bad quarter indeed.  No wonder Nokia are looking at other offerings...Apr 20 12:51
schestowitzmagentar: : what would be the impactApr 20 12:51
magentarimpossible to say at the moment. it will be interesting to see how this will affect suns open source projectsApr 20 12:52
oiaohm  Added my own thoughs on mono to that one.  People really don't think mono though.  Its pure crap techincally.Apr 20 13:00
schestowitzoiaohm: he works on itApr 20 13:01
schestowitzapebox=mono packager for Debian and UbuntuApr 20 13:01
oiaohmYep.Apr 20 13:01
oiaohmReason why I kinda drop house on him.Apr 20 13:01
oiaohmThere is no logical argument out.Apr 20 13:02
schestowitz Oracle to Buy SunApr 20 13:02
schestowitzSo what happens to btrfs then?Apr 20 13:02
schestowitzAnd 20 13:02
oiaohmbtrfs will remain.Apr 20 13:03
schestowitzOracle did defend ODFApr 20 13:03
oiaohmOracle had tech issue with ZFSApr 20 13:03
schestowitzoiaohm: as I read it, Ellison will also own JavaApr 20 13:03
oiaohmNot just licence ones.Apr 20 13:03
schestowitzThey have some Java projectsApr 20 13:03
schestowitzAnd Oracle won't mess with anything MicrosoftApr 20 13:03
schestowitzEllison hates MirosoftApr 20 13:03
schestowitzI'm not too fearfulApr 20 13:03
schestowitzOracle is also not a patent aggressorApr 20 13:04
schestowitzIt's in OINApr 20 13:04
oiaohmEllison would keep Open Office alive just to annoy Microsoft.Apr 20 13:04
schestowitzAll in all, I'm kind of OK with it, I guessApr 20 13:04
schestowitzoiaohm: exacttly.Apr 20 13:04
schestowitzIt could also make them a bundleApr 20 13:04
schestowitzMy initial thoughts about the Oracle-Sun deal are positive.Apr 20 13:05
schestowitzAny conflicts that I'm missing?Apr 20 13:05
schestowitzI mean, OK... IBM sold hardware, so did SunApr 20 13:05
oiaohm  Again 1 of the top 8 in the Linux foundation.Apr 20 13:05
schestowitzSo IBM buying Sun would mean less choiceApr 20 13:05
schestowitzh/w-wiseApr 20 13:05
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schestowitzOracle doesn't sell hardwareApr 20 13:05
schestowitznow it mightApr 20 13:06
oiaohmOrcale could be a conflit they do sell a Linux.Apr 20 13:06
Omar87schestowitz: HiApr 20 13:06
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, Oracle was OK in the LFApr 20 13:06
schestowitzIt gave its patents tooApr 20 13:06
schestowitzOracle doesn't compete with GoogleApr 20 13:06
MinceRhopefully Oracle will finally force Sun to favor Linux instead of Solarisaurus.Apr 20 13:06
schestowitzit does not compete with OOo (e.g. Symphony)Apr 20 13:06
schestowitzMinceR: maybe merge themApr 20 13:06
oiaohmOracle taken over other open source projects in the past and they are still going.Apr 20 13:06
schestowitzDTrace, Java...Apr 20 13:06
schestowitzSun needed to withdraw appeal for GNU/LinuxApr 20 13:07
oiaohm 20 13:07
magentari hope they will keep investing in mysql, they might see it as competitive to their businessApr 20 13:07
schestowitzWith Oracle, this might end, so he could bring UNIX and Linux together and knock them against MSFT, which will disappoint profoundly on Thursday (market close)Apr 20 13:07
schestowitzOH NO1Apr 20 13:07
schestowitzMysqlApr 20 13:07
Omar87schestowitz: There's a typo in your article "Should the hompage of boycottnovell be changed?":  "So as it(to) make it..."Apr 20 13:07
oiaohmDon't worry.Apr 20 13:07
schestowitzI totally missed that oneApr 20 13:08
oiaohmOracle will keep it around.Apr 20 13:08
schestowitzSo you think they'll integrate it as a low-cost option?Apr 20 13:08
oiaohmMysql was one of the things of Sun that was paying.Apr 20 13:08
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, but in what state?Apr 20 13:08
schestowitzThey fought Mysql viciouslyApr 20 13:08
taconeapebox scares meApr 20 13:08
schestowitzBut buying innodb for instancerApr 20 13:08
schestowitzAmong othersApr 20 13:08
schestowitztacone: hehe.Apr 20 13:08
taconelook the title of the first postApr 20 13:08
tacone"Mass infection vector"Apr 20 13:08
schestowitzHe's a small fellaApr 20 13:08
oiaohmThey fort berkley db before they took it over as well.Apr 20 13:08
MinceRmysql sucks anywayApr 20 13:08
taconebrr.Apr 20 13:08
taconeseems like some kind of honesty :-)Apr 20 13:09
MinceRthe only reason i use it is that some webapps don't support postgres nor sqliteApr 20 13:09
schestowitzMinceR: what for?Apr 20 13:09
oiaohmAfter Oracle got hands on it they quality of it went up.Apr 20 13:09
schestowitzmysql works great for millions of sitesApr 20 13:09
taconesame goes for iguaza's embrace & extendApr 20 13:09
oiaohmMysql most likely be the same.Apr 20 13:09
oiaohmIf Oracle was not already running a open source database in berkley db I would be worried.Apr 20 13:09
oiaohmPostgresql might have something to worry about.Apr 20 13:10
schestowitzHehe. "davidgerard @schestowitz mine aren't. 8 years of my CV vanishing like dew in the morning sun. guess i'll hafta learn this 'leengux' the kids are into."Apr 20 13:10
oiaohmMysql might get Oracle database compadiblity.Apr 20 13:10
Omar87schestowitz: did u correct the typo?Apr 20 13:10
schestowitz"davidgerard @schestowitz i see mysql forking accelerating. i have no confidence jschwartz's "open source everything" policy will remain in place."Apr 20 13:10
schestowitzOmar87: good spot! ThanksApr 20 13:11
MinceRwhat was davidgerard into? Slowlarisaurus?Apr 20 13:11
schestowitzDid you see the Wiki?Apr 20 13:11
Omar87schestowitz: no problem.Apr 20 13:11
schestowitz:-)Apr 20 13:11
schestowitzFixedApr 20 13:11
schestowitzMinceR: wikipedia UKApr 20 13:12
schestowitzIt runs some SolarisApr 20 13:12
MinceRicApr 20 13:12
schestowitzOraclarisApr 20 13:12
MinceRwell, maybe it'll live on as Oracle Unbreakable SolarisApr 20 13:12
Omar87great ;)Apr 20 13:12
MinceRand Oracle Unbreakable OpenSolarisApr 20 13:12
schestowitzIf Oracle does no good with mysql, then it will go out of its control.Apr 20 13:13
MinceRi wonder what will come of btrfs and ZFS nowApr 20 13:13
schestowitzMinceR: I wonder about OS XApr 20 13:13
schestowitzIt had a potential big deployment of ZFSApr 20 13:13
schestowitzBalrog would knowApr 20 13:13
oiaohmbtrfs was developed to deal with ZFS limits.Apr 20 13:13
schestowitzThey put experimental ZFS seeds in itApr 20 13:14
schestowitzSnow leopardApr 20 13:14
schestowitzoiaohm: yesApr 20 13:14
oiaohmZFS most likely get moved to Linux friendly licence.Apr 20 13:14
MinceRthen i'll say this acquisition was worth it.Apr 20 13:14
schestowitzoiaohm: bad news is this:Apr 20 13:14
schestowitzWe run out of companiesApr 20 13:14
oiaohmAnd btrfs stays around not like Orcale.Apr 20 13:14
MinceRif only to see the faces of the bsd fanboys.Apr 20 13:14
schestowitzStartups are friedApr 20 13:14
schestowitzNo capitaApr 20 13:14
schestowitzNo capitalApr 20 13:14
oiaohmto give up an experment before it complete.Apr 20 13:14
schestowitzSo now you see big corporations sweeping up small onesApr 20 13:15
schestowitzLike fish in the seaApr 20 13:15
schestowitzmysql->sun->oracleApr 20 13:15
MinceRit's the crisis, i think it'll be over eventually.Apr 20 13:15
schestowitzSardine->salmon->whaleApr 20 13:15
oiaohmOracle aquired sleepy cat first.Apr 20 13:15
MinceRand in the world of FLOSS it's still easy to start a new companyApr 20 13:15
oiaohmRemember Oracle only aquires companies that offer themselfs.Apr 20 13:15
schestowitzMinceR: what do you mean by over?Apr 20 13:15
schestowitzLike when people stop trading in USD?Apr 20 13:15
oiaohmThey don't want hostile.Apr 20 13:15
schestowitzFor some nations it will never endApr 20 13:15
schestowitzit's just the beginning of the end to someApr 20 13:16
schestowitzBut the press is not information them yetApr 20 13:16
schestowitz*informingApr 20 13:16
MinceRschestowitz: i think that the crisis is accelerating such acquisitions as smaller companies run low on moneyApr 20 13:16
oiaohmSo Oracle is never going to try to buy Microsoft or anything else stupid.Apr 20 13:16
MinceRthat would be funnyApr 20 13:16
schestowitzoiaohm: buying MS? what for?Apr 20 13:16
schestowitzms sql server sucksApr 20 13:17
schestowitzCompared to OracleApr 20 13:17
oiaohmMS would do something that stupid.Apr 20 13:17
schestowitzAnd it won'r run on 'alien' platforms Oracle usesApr 20 13:17
oiaohmIn the means of compeition nuking.Apr 20 13:17
schestowitzMS is useful just to MSApr 20 13:17
oiaohmOracle does not aquire to destroy.Apr 20 13:17
schestowitzOr Exxon or somethingApr 20 13:17
schestowitz(if they do into tech)Apr 20 13:17
schestowitzMicrosoft chose to combat the big companies, inc. IBMApr 20 13:18
oiaohmI expect to see more intergration between open office and Oracles databases from the merge.Apr 20 13:18
schestowitzGE is not quite in computing, eitherApr 20 13:18
oiaohmRemember databases.Apr 20 13:18
schestowitzEven Intel and H-P sometimes grow tired of MS' incompetenceApr 20 13:18
oiaohmOne in trouble here might be sqlite.Apr 20 13:18
oiaohmHP has to do contracts with Oracle.Apr 20 13:19
oiaohmOracle + hardware becomes another IT supper power.Apr 20 13:19
oiaohmIBM HP OracleApr 20 13:19
kentmaschestowitz: have you seen rumours about Oracle buying Sun?  (== mysql)?Apr 20 13:19
MinceRit isn't supper time yet thoughApr 20 13:20
oiaohm  << not rumour kentmaApr 20 13:20
kentma 20 13:20
kentmaoiaohm: indeed, I've just found the reuters feed, too.Apr 20 13:21
kentmaend of the road for mysql?Apr 20 13:21
schestowitzkentma: see the logApr 20 13:21
schestowitzWe've spoken about it :-)Apr 20 13:21
kentmaschestowitz: ah, yes, I can see it further up.Apr 20 13:21
kentmaso I see :-)Apr 20 13:21
kentmaStill, it will be a real test of the GPL... I wonder if we'll see a spin-off, like we had X.orgApr 20 13:22
oiaohmMysql would not be the first database that is open source Oracle has picked up.Apr 20 13:24
Omar87damn it guys, I hate Dreamweaver, I'm having an utterly boring class aboutit right now.Apr 20 13:24
oiaohmMysql is profitable.Apr 20 13:24
oiaohmOracle is not foolish.Apr 20 13:24
Omar87*about it*Apr 20 13:24
oiaohmBerkley db was the first one orcale picked up.Apr 20 13:24
oiaohmThey improved it.Apr 20 13:24
oiaohmSell support for it.  Make profit.Apr 20 13:25
oiaohmOracle will see Mysql as another profit line.Apr 20 13:25
oiaohmThere is worse than dreamweaver you could be using screem.Apr 20 13:26
schestowitzDreamweaver is not computingApr 20 13:26
schestowitzit's a toolApr 20 13:26
schestowitzLike teaching kids how to chew SinkersApr 20 13:26
schestowitzoiaohm: mysql is profitable, but at /whose/ expense?Apr 20 13:27
oiaohmMost of the mysql users cannot aford orcale main database licence.Apr 20 13:27
oiaohmSo its not realy at Orcales expence.Apr 20 13:28
oiaohmThe aquirement of mysql gives Oracle from top to bottom of the web based database market.Apr 20 13:28
oiaohmIts really at MS expence.Apr 20 13:28
oiaohmBe truthful if you had to pay for Oracle would you be schestowitz?  Or would you go to postgresql?Apr 20 13:29
schestowitzoiaohm: fair pointApr 20 13:30
zer0c00lschestowitz, oracle buys sun?Apr 20 13:30
schestowitz"sebjames @schestowitz: A test of GPL code in the hands of large corporations. CUPS didn't need to be forked after Apple bought it. Mysql different?"Apr 20 13:30
oiaohmMysql is basically used by people too cheep to aford Oracle or MS SQL or Enterprise db and don't want to have the hard time configuring postgresql.   Oracle could basically develop as a light end solution.Apr 20 13:32
schestowitzThey already have that thoughApr 20 13:33
schestowitzbut proprietaryApr 20 13:33
zer0c00loiaohm, they  (oracle) will stop developing  mysql?Apr 20 13:33
oiaohmEnterprise DB has been eating into Oracles profits anyhow.Apr 20 13:33
schestowitzSo it steps on the toes on their CPU-limited versionApr 20 13:33
schestowitzzer0c00l: they can'tApr 20 13:33
schestowitzIt will then be forkedApr 20 13:33
oiaohmRemember Enterprise db is postgresql + management tools.Apr 20 13:34
schestowitzSome business of 100 devs can be formed to then capitalise on mysqApr 20 13:34
schestowitzSo Oracle must develop it somehowApr 20 13:34
schestowitzThis is NOT like XenApr 20 13:34
oiaohmOracle need a low end solution.Apr 20 13:34
schestowitzWhen Microsoft bought Xen (XenSource-Citrix) it abandoned itApr 20 13:34
schestowitzBut it worked because we have kvmApr 20 13:34
oiaohmFor Oracle long term killing mysql would be a stupid move.Apr 20 13:34
schestowitzmysql->postgres is not that simpleApr 20 13:34
oiaohmExactly.Apr 20 13:35
schestowitzoiaohm: they can't kil itApr 20 13:35
schestowitzYou can't kill GPL s/wApr 20 13:35
oiaohmI meant kill the development team.Apr 20 13:35
schestowitzIt's not like code you keep secret and lock in the boxApr 20 13:35
oiaohmIf Oracle can get mysql intergrated into there main db system.Apr 20 13:35
schestowitzIf people like us took mysql and created a business around it, imagine how many contracts you'd getApr 20 13:35
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schestowitzSo Oracle might at best FAKE support of mysql and hope this avoids forkingApr 20 13:36
oiaohmOracle making migration from mysql to Oracle simple.Apr 20 13:36
oiaohmWould allow upselling.Apr 20 13:36
schestowitzOracle's problem are other enterprise dbsApr 20 13:36
schestowitzlike MS, IBM...Apr 20 13:36
oiaohmRemember Oracle is also a OS maker.Apr 20 13:36
schestowitzoiaohm: hardlyApr 20 13:37
schestowitzRebranderApr 20 13:37
schestowitzWith some Linux devsApr 20 13:37
oiaohmSo more applications running on there OS the more support contacts they can get.Apr 20 13:37
schestowitzFor stuff it NEEDSApr 20 13:37
oiaohmYes Rebrander.Apr 20 13:37
oiaohmWho has got fired for using Oracle.Apr 20 13:37
schestowitzheh.Apr 20 13:37

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