Bonum Certa Men Certa

Nathan Myhrvold/Bill Gates Use “Embrace and Extend” Against “Mak[ing] it Easy for People to Do Competitive Operating Systems”

Summary: Microsoft talks about harming competition by embracing and extending

WHEN IT comes to Comes vs Microsoft, we have only just begun. So if you enjoy 'smoking guns' that were hardly/never seen before, be sure to subscribe.

This next exhibit, Exhibit plex_5803 (1996) [PDF], is an excellent sequel to the one where Microsoft describes “Embrace and Extend” and the Windows API franchise.

Herein we find Nathan Myhrvold, the world's largest patent troll at present, seemingly passing a long message from Bill Gates, although it is not perfectly clear whether the message came from him or from Gates. The message paints a rather vivid picture of the company's fear and predatory responses to competition.

For instance, how about this gem at the start?

I am worry a lot about how great Java/Javabeans and all the runtime work they are doing is and how much excitement this is generating. I am literally losing sleep over this issue since together with a move to more server based applications it seems like it could make it easy for people to do competitive operating systems.


The next paragraph is curious too.

I am very interested to get your thoughts on this. Prior to the advanced work you are driving what kind of defenses do we have against this? I certainly havent’ come up with enough to relax about the situation and it is undermining my creativity.


Microsoft fears fair competition where platforms can interoperate:

I think that the risk of Sun really taking the OS franchise away from us is much lower than the risk that they cheapen the entire business. They are so hell bent to give things away, and there is so much cross platform ferver that it will be hard for them or others to harness this energy toward a single platform. In the limit, they can make the web totally OS agnostic but there will still be other things that motivate one platform versus another.


Gates (or Myhrvold) then proposes a malicious "embrace and extend" in order to extinguish Java. Think about MSODF [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7].

The obvious things to do are:

Provide our own means of dramatically improving web pages.

- Continue to “embrace and extend” both at the level of new Java tools (like J++), and our broader browser strategy.

- Create some radical new approaches to improving web pages, or building web applications. I think that it is a big mistake to put all of our eggs in the “embrace and extend” basket. This thinking will lead us down the path to renounce any really interesting edge we could have. Over reliance on “embrace and extend” can lead to what I sometimes call the relentless drive to come in second, which does not help much in a winner take all world.


Here is an embrace (like Microsoft 'joining' ODF):

2. Pioneer other means to participate in the new market. It is very rare that there is only one asset that matters. Hell, look at Netscape and Sun - each have an interesting asset, and this is still the EARLY stages of the net. There will be other technologies which matter and we should try to own one of them, even if it is in a totally different direction.


Another last mention of "embrace and extend" (all very explicitly):

We need Windows to be the most compelling platform for users to choose Ideally this means that we win in every category. You are worried that we will only tie in the Java category because Javabeans and other runtime work will make cross platform really work well. I say we should try to tie (or win) with embrace and extend in the Java world.


For naysayings who speak about the age of these exhibits, the important points to be made is that these are new to the public eye and they help educate about Microsoft's practices, which have never changed since.

"This anti-trust thing will blow over. We haven't changed our business practices at all."

--Bill Gates, 1995






Appendix: Comes vs. Microsoft - exhibit plex_5803, as text








From: Nathan Myhrvold Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 1996 12:05 PM To: Bill Gates Cc: Aaron Contorer Subject: RE: Java runtime becomes the operating system

-------- From: Bill Gates Sent: Monday, September 30, 1996 9:36 PM To: Nathan Myhrvoid Cc: Aaron Contorer Subject: Java runtime becomes the operating system

I am worry a lot about how great Java/Javabeans and all the runtime work they are doing is and how much excitement this is generating. I am literally losing sleep over this issue since together with a move to more server based applications it seems like it could make it easy for people to do competitive operating systems.

I am very interested to get your thoughts on this. Prior to the advanced work you are driving what kind of defenses do we have against this? I certainly havent’ come up with enough to relax about the situation and it is undermining my creativity.

I agree that this is a dilemma, but I don’t think that it is severe enough that you should lose sleep over it. Here are some quick thoughts on the matter - I will put more time in on it also.

First, the excitement is overblown at least from a *business* perspective. At the moment Java is expanding into a vacuum. It allows you to make cool web pages, and that is a very attractive thing for people. It gives programmers something new to learn, book people something new to sell books on, software tool companies a way to issue new development tools etc.

As you and know very well, this sort of widespread interest can become a self fulifilling phenomenon, because programmer attention creates programs. Some of these will be successful and that only fuels more participation in the phenomenon. However, at the same time you must keep something of a balanced perspective.

I think that the risk of Sun really taking the OS franchise away from us is much lower than the risk that they cheapen the entire business. They are so hell bent to give things away, and there is so much cross platform ferver that it will be hard for them or others to harness this energy toward a single platform. In the limit, they can make the web totally OS agnostic but there will still be other things that motivate one platform versus another.

In the very long run they could make it more and more difficult for us to keep up and thus even though the world is cross platform, we have more baggage, worse implementation and can’t keep up. This is NOT going to happen quickly however - we will get several more swings at them

The new Java applications are NOT credible threats to traditional PC software any time soon. It is just insanity to think that they are. New things are NEVER a threat to the old world as soon as people say. Look at the mainframe vs PC. It has taken us TWO DECADES and even after all that IBM still has billions in mainframe revenue. Cool new technology always expands rapidly into NEW areas (where there is a vacuum). Pundits always say that this is going to kill the old businesses - eventually that happens but not anywhere near as soon as they say.

It is a new and uncomfortable feeling to be the incumbent rather than the challenger in one of these battles. However, we must not panic. The current perceptual battle is a long way distant from actual business and revenue issues, and we can’t let the perceptual issues cloud our thinking too much.

This is not to say that Java is unimportant It is VERY important (just don’t lose sleep!) I think that you are focusing on the wrong *kind* of threat. We are in danger of losing a new market which will grow at a pace which is very rapid indeed. This would be a tradegy to have happen to us, but it is different than a direct assult on our core asset, and our response must also be different.

The obvious things to do are:

1

Plaintiff's Exhibit 5803 Comes V. Microsoft

MS-CC-Sun 000001396845 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL

1 Provide our own means of dramatically improving web pages.

- Continue to “embrace and extend” both at the level of new Java tools (like J++), and our broader browser strategy.

- Create some radical new approaches to improving web pages, or building web applications. I think that it is a big mistake to put all of our eggs in the “embrace and extend” basket. This thinking will lead us down the path to renounce any really interesting edge we could have. Over reliance on “embrace and extend” can lead to what I sometimes call the relentless drive to come in second, which does not help much in a winner take all world.

Note that by “radical” I mean more in concept than in technology i.e. NOT speech or other really hard stuff. Java is pathetic technology. We do not need high tech here we need some technology but mainly creativity in how we look at it.

2. Pioneer other means to participate in the new market. It is very rare that there is only one asset that matters. Hell, look at Netscape and Sun - each have an interesting asset, and this is still the EARLY stages of the net. There will be other technologies which matter and we should try to own one of them, even if it is in a totally different direction.

The key thing is to come up with something which will be buoyed up by the rising Intemet tide Again, this need not be some super hard technical problem it is more about being creative and finding an opportunity. Here are some examples (none perfect).

- Virtual worlds could be such a thing.

- New ways of doing server apps, or doing net transactions (ala Viper) could be such a thing.

I don’t have as many examples here as I would like, but I am pretty sure that we could come up with some things if we really focussed on this area.

3. Continue to invest in our core business assets - in this case the Windows runtime. 99% of worldwide software revenue is still based on Windows apps, and way more than 100% of profits. If we let Windows decline in its non-web attributes then we will REALLY will be up shit creek. I fear that the overexcitement in the web, and the misunderstanding that our core business is only indirectly under attack means that our current course and speed neglects our best avenue to comete.

We need Windows to be the most compelling platform for users to choose Ideally this means that we win in every category. You are worried that we will only tie in the Java category because Javabeans and other runtime work will make cross platform really work well. I say we should try to tie (or win) with embrace and extend in the Java world. HOWEVER while doing this we MUST NOT allow Windows to lose in the other, non-web dimensions that are important to users selecting systoms! There is more to a user’s system choice than just the Web and it is in those areas where we have a big advantage.

Put another way suppose that Java is totally successful and totally cross platform then why should people choose one - system versus another? It will all hinge on other areas.

Here are some examples:

- We need to be the LEADER in multimedia this means doing very cool audio and video. We want to lead with DVD and make it easy to. We must be the best platform for games (better than Ultra64 or Playstation). We want to be the best platform for graphics/video/audio authoring (better than SGI or Mac).

- Prevent barriers from coming up in ease of use. PCs must be instant on, they must go beyond plug and play to be even more self configuring, they must be self diagnosing. There is no technical reason why a PC shouldn’t be the best possible user experience better than those hypothetical web terminals. However, this takes WORK to make it happen It will take those web terminal guys some work too, but in our case there is a certain amount of baggage which will cause extra work for us, but will result in extra reward too. It is critical that we do this.

- Leverage the web to provide dramatic new functionality for old applications. The key example here is the “My Workspace” notion of totally abstracting storage on the net. This would be a dramatic change for users - storage abstractions are one of the hardest things to use in current PCs and we can make this all go away. If we do this based on STORAGE (i.e. file system APIs) it can short circuit the longer term move to distribution based on other APIs or protocols -- storage gets you most of the benefit.

2

MS-CC-Sun 000001386846 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL

I am frankly worried that we are not doing enough in this area because we have over-focused on the web We need end user focused people to really make our system great. We are handicapped by the fact that we also need to do an implementation technology shift (to NT) and a cultural/personnel shift (to Allchin’s group which has historically focussed more on underlying technology than on end user stuff).

This is a big challenge to do these shifts AND keep the platform vital. The analogy with Apple is frightening. They pissed away their creativity on non-Mac things (Kaleida, Sweet Pea/Pippin, Taligent, Newton...), and they tied up their Mac team with a technology shift (to Power PC). The analogy is unfair because the web work that Siverberg and Ludwig have been doing is much more relevant than what Apple did. However I still am worried that we are not making enough investment in our core asset. The good news is that we do have plenty of people we can focus on these problems, and if we do we can create some end user value that will be hard for anybody else to match.

-------------------------------

I am not sure whether I managed to make you less worried or more worried. I think that this is a serious problem, but I think that we have more options than you may think particularly with 2 and 3 above.

Nathan

3

MS-CC-Sun 000001386847 HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL


Credit: wallclimber

Recent Techrights' Posts

Social Control Media Does Not Improve Reach, It Wastes a Lot of Time
many people still think that no presence in Social Control Media necessarily means invisibility
Links 02/06/2026: New York Times Debunks "Hey Hi (AI) Layoffs" (Excuse, False Narrative), Sheinbaum Publicly Bemoans US Meddling
Links for the day
What Efforts to Cancel Richard Stallman Ought to Teach Us About the Media, Including Very Large British Publishers
Richard Stallman is like a modern-age Alfred Dreyfus
 
Web Censorship Benefits the Corrupt and the Criminal
More so when corrupt politicians are in charge
Have a "Lifetime" Without Microsoft
The online rage over this is still ongoing
Internet Archive’s Wayback Machine Undoing Censorship of Corporate Wrongdoing
That won't go away anymore
"For Entertainment Purposes Only" But Everyone Must Adopt It for Work and Governance, Say Anti-Scientific Technocrats
"The present mentality around "AI" is like driving to the gym to use a treadmill - it's walking for people who hate fresh air and beautiful changing scenery."
Gemini Links 03/06/2026: Ian Murdock's Ex-wife Footprint in Debian and Alhena 5.6.1 Released
Links for the day
Irish Company statCounter Recognises It Overestimated Microsoft Windows' Market Share in Ireland
it seems like the Irish people are gradually moving away from Windows
Corporate Media Participates in the Lie That Mass Layoffs at GitLab and Loss of Geographic Footprint in More Than a Third of Countries is "AI" and Thus "Success Story"
There's no way to spin this as positive news
Slop Prompting is Not a Coding Skill and Slop Deserves Shunning
Red Hat is hypocritically shunning the very same thing it keeps promoting
IBM colleagues "handed out a PIP and then right after the end date they are gone"
Some go into early 'retirement' to save face
SLAPP Censorship - Part 96 Out of 200: When You Receive Death Threats From Anonymous Sockpuppets/Burner Accounts Connected to People Who Strangle Women and Tell Women to Kill Themselves
Women are not objects and my wife ought not be mentioned in "threats to kill" (how cops have described this)
European Patent Office (EPO) Series: A Tale of Two Antónios - Introducing the Other António
António Costa
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, June 02, 2026
IRC logs for Tuesday, June 02, 2026
Advertisements as Articles in The Register MS
Trust in media
Despite Mass Layoffs and Culls Dubbed "Buyouts" Google's Debt Doubled in a Year and It's Desperate for Money (to Pay Salaries and Bills)
Google and GAFAM in general have mass layoffs because they have no clear route towards profitability
Gemini Links 02/06/2026: Arch Linux WriterDeck and Papyrix Reader
Links for the day
Bloggers Still Have Considerable Impact on This Planet
Nowadays, in academia almost anywhere in the world, there's growing expectation that lecturers will spend not much of the time doing research or even teaching
The Firing Line Against Techrights
Tomorrow we'll tell a story about campaigns to intimidate us with death threats
The Cyber Show on the Fight Against Technofascism
It's very long (all combined), but nevertheless refreshing
After Threats to Greenland Northern Europe Seems to be Moving Away From Microsoft Windows Even Faster
The facts on the ground are, more people/businesses/institutions "get the message"
Claim of 500+ IBM Red Hat Layoffs With Termination Next Month
IBM is doing great... at hiding internal affairs
Slop Did Not Rewire Democracy, It's a Giant Flop
we already see slop giants accepting they'll never make money
The Register MS Embeds in Articles "SPONSORED LINKS" That Link to "AI" Ponzi Scheme/Scam
The circular financing giants are allocating budget for the spam, as do the banks (lenders)
Many Countries Divest From Microsoft
new numbers at statCounter today
European Patent Office (EPO) Series: A Tale of Two Antónios - On the Campaign Trail in Brussels
Part 1
SEO is an Acronym That Stands for Slop Engine Orientation
The Web changed a lot when Web directories, portals, and then social control media gained popularity
IRC Network OFTC is Shedding Off Servers
Down to 17
Julian Assange's Counsel Jennifer Robinson Has Just Won an Award
Jennifer Robinson is relatively young
Schweizerische Bundesbahnen (Swiss Federal Railways) and Richard Stallman
It seems like RMS is receiving endorsement or at least belated recognition from very high-profile institutions
Almost 30 Years After Rob Malda Made Slashdot It Still Inspires New Implementations
Maybe the issue isn't Slash per se, just the complexity of it (which SoylentNews complained about in the past)
Links 02/06/2026: "The Infosec Phrasebook", 'Perfect Randomness' and "Leaving the Tech World Professionally"
Links for the day
Faking Demand for Slop: Google's Search Prompt Becomes Slop Prompt (Bait, Switch, Fake Usage)
If there is no consent, then it's unsustainable
When You Give People (or Companies) Money to Buy Your Own Products and Then Call It "Revenue"
A lot of modern "economics" don't benefit ordinary people (all they get is high inflation rates); they're devaluing money by faking economic activity
IBM is Self-Detonating, the Cheeto-Infused Rally is Another Con by Don
pump and dump
"Quantum" as the "Next Big" Bubble
disappointing and delivering nothing
Links 02/06/2026: "$1.5 Trillion Defense Budget Benefits Billionaire Cheeto Mussolini Supporters", US "Plans to Criminalize Sleeping Outside"
Links for the day
Gemini Links 02/06/2026: Organising Oneself and Killing Off Distracting "Notifications"
Links for the day
SLAPP Censorship - Part 95 Out of 200: The Growing Risk of Tolerating Men Who Abuse and Physically Assault Women
FOSS should not be a "safe harbour" or "hideout" for criminals
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, June 01, 2026
IRC logs for Monday, June 01, 2026
Rust is a Disaster for Both GNU and Linux, But 'Linux' Foundation (GKH) Keeps Promoting It Despite the Problems
And non-GPL licences
IBM's CEO and his "pump and dump scheme" ("Arvind's lies about quantum")
Don't be misled by Wall Street
Gemini Links 01/06/2026: Xylophone Essay, Ham Radio, and Slop Contaminating USENET/Newsgroups
Links for the day
How to Tackle Corruption Effectively and Gradually
In my personal, humble experience
European Patent Office (EPO) Series: A Tale of Two Antónios
"Campaign for the Re-Appointment of the President"
Links 01/06/2026: Patent Applicant Disclosures Drop After the January 2025 IDS Surcharge, "China Exports Surveillance"
Links for the day
Links 01/06/2026: Irreversible GAFAM Bans and "The Pirate Bay Remains Resilient"
Links for the day
Running and Writing Sites for People, Not Bots (Including Search Engines)
Had those sites spent more time focusing on RSS feeds (not social control media "games") and less on SEO (trying to game search engines), they wouldn't be sobbing now
SBB, the Swiss Railroads, Want to Hear Richard Stallman
Can Dr. Stallman persuade key decision makers to adopt not only "Linux" but also Software Freedom (not the same thing), as he did in South American before? Or like he did in Kerala?
Resumes and Vanity Pages
Wikipedia is fast becoming a glorified marketing company
Trusting Microsoft is Foolish
Mr. Rossmann says they "gaslight customers" in their Web site, but it goes a lot further than this
Techrights in a Nutshell, in Very Generic Terms
"for dummies"
SLAPP Censorship - Part 94 Out of 200: SLAPP by Garrett's Litigation Buddy Started 20 Months Ago, He Has Not Even Put in His Defence Yet!
This is what happens when one deals with incels and misogynists who promote slop and Microsoft
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, May 31, 2026
IRC logs for Sunday, May 31, 2026
Gemini Links 01/06/2026: Buckingham Palace Garden Party, TUI Annoyances, Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology
Links for the day