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| schestowitz | "A principal advantage of Linspire, its codec licensing agreement with Microsoft, no longer applies," Typaldos says. ( http://www.linux.com/feature/144307 ) | Aug 10 07:32 |
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| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Aug 10 14:52:28 2008 |
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Aug 10 14:52 |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications (publicly logged) | Aug 10 14:52 |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Wed Jun 4 08:34:16 2008 | Aug 10 14:52 |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Aug 10 14:52 |
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| *#boycottnovell :[freenode-info] if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg | Aug 10 14:52 |
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| subsonica | hi everyone | Aug 10 17:19 |
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| kentma | hi subsonica - next time! | Aug 10 18:11 |
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| schestowitz | It seems like Novell wlll try to shovel some Novell-only (Mono) patches into projects like KDE, :-( | Aug 10 18:47 |
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| twitter | Link? | Aug 10 19:00 |
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| schestowitz | Hmmm... just spotted this Munchkin (Gary Stewart) trolling my submission... http://digg.com/linux_unix/CCu... | Aug 10 19:00 |
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| schestowitz | About KDE, I wrote a post about it this morning and there are some comments. | Aug 10 19:01 |
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| twitter | Thanks, I have to go see. | Aug 10 19:02 |
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| kentma | he remains an objectionable, scaly character. | Aug 10 19:02 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08... http://boycottnovell.com/2008... | Aug 10 19:04 |
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| schestowitz | I passed by Maplin 2 hours ago and a minBook was up for display at the front window (no Windows). Mainstream indeed. | Aug 10 19:06 |
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| twitter | OK, read the Meeks interview. It was nauseating and I see where you are coming from but I don't think KDE will follow. | Aug 10 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | I don't think "follow" is the right word. Subjugate maybe. Do you know that Moonlight requires Mono? | Aug 10 20:55 |
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| schestowitz | brb | Aug 10 20:55 |
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| schestowitz | OK, I'm back. | Aug 10 21:06 |
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| Tallken | schestowitz, let me guess, dinner? :P | Aug 10 21:24 |
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| schestowitz | How did you know? | Aug 10 21:26 |
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| Tallken | time you took, and me having had dinner as well in that timeframe :D | Aug 10 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | Well, I had another dinner at 6. Anyway, I've been thinking about the shame that is 'MacDonalds' of PCs taking over fine projects that were born to liberate people from 'foreign tax'. Many Germans seem to be guardians of KDEs and maybe more Spaniards around GNOME (my judgment could be very incorrect). The situation where you have two US-based businesses like Microsoft and Novell could end up in an acquisition or Citrix/MS-like rela | Aug 10 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | tionship (marriage of convenience). Novell has a lot of control over DEs, esp. with swpatents. Mono is a curse, but there are more. Novell knew quite some time ago that it could (and would) use Mono to divide. The GPL prevents division but v2 has the swpatents loophole. | Aug 10 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | *gasp* Another Slashdot 'ad' for Microsoft: http://tech.slashdot.org/... They publish everything about Microsoft trying to be an 'open source' citizen. Is someone gaming the system there? Is it the SourceForge sponsorship? They also posted "Linus Foundation: we'd like to work for Microsoft." They market Microsoft to geeks. WTF? | Aug 10 21:36 |
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| Tallken | For the time being I'm yet at Gnome and using Tomboy :P By the time I upgrade to next Ubuntu version I'll consider a switch... I have been jumping between Gnome and KDE for too long now, maybe Novell can make me decide for good :) | Aug 10 21:36 |
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| Tallken | I love GPL, the way everyone develops stuff and is forced to share ehehehe :D | Aug 10 21:37 |
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| Tallken | Learnt a while ago RedHat's using Ubuntu's upstart | Aug 10 21:37 |
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| schestowitz | Share poison too. That's what swpats do. | Aug 10 21:37 |
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| Tallken | didn't understand your last sentence sorry? Share poison with who? | Aug 10 21:38 |
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| schestowitz | Sharing of code is a wonderful thing. The issue is that certain patches, given the introduction of software patents, can do more harm than good. That's the key issue with Novell. I'm actually more annoyed with how Microsoft paid SourceForge, which now markets Microsoft to readers (the same company that it likely to sue or extort). | Aug 10 21:41 |
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| Tallken | ah | Aug 10 21:44 |
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| Tallken | understood | Aug 10 21:44 |
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| Tallken | You're aware RedHat also settled an patent issue outside court, don't you? Though it was with a lesser evil, it did; RedHat's costumers are free from any more issues from that patent holder, but not other distro's users... | Aug 10 21:46 |
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| schestowitz | It's a nudge-nudge thing and it has become a pattern. It's irritating because it makes some people naive and less careful about Microsoft's plans. It's boasting Microsoft's presence at OSCON (they paid O'Reilly lots of money) and the tagging leaves no room for criticism. | Aug 10 21:46 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I was going to mention the Red Hat thing. Sun too. It's less than optimal, but it keeps the code flowing freely. | Aug 10 21:47 |
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| Tallken | Do you buy Linuxformat? | Aug 10 21:47 |
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| schestowitz | No, I never have. I don't deal with paper. | Aug 10 21:47 |
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| Tallken | Pretty impartial magazine. Did a review of openSuSE, mentioned loud and clear the open-source community to MS-Novell deal. And went on saying openSuSE was great lol :P | Aug 10 21:48 |
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| schestowitz | I remember their review of 11.0 | Aug 10 21:51 |
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| Tallken | I must say it seems to be cool :P | Aug 10 21:52 |
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| schestowitz | I realise that you and benJIman are here as OpenSUSE users hoping to change the atmosphere. I must say that OpenSUSE is not the issue. It's the companies that wrap it up. | Aug 10 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | There used to be a BoycottSUSE blog back in 2006-2007 (it's no more). Someone anonymous ran it and I think I was in touch with him by E-mail. I can't recall for sure. Anyway, that's gone now. | Aug 10 21:54 |
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| Tallken | schestowitz, I'm with Ubuntu lol, just read the review and seemed cool | Aug 10 21:55 |
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| Tallken | and I know the problem is the company behind it :) | Aug 10 21:55 |
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| Tallken | and now Gnome seems compromised | Aug 10 21:55 |
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| Tallken | :( | Aug 10 21:56 |
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| schestowitz | Ah, okay. Well, I recognise and publicly say that OpenSUSE is good. But that's not the point. | Aug 10 21:56 |
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| schestowitz | Remember what RMS says about Freedom vs Power. He has a good article about it. Also, someone mailed me some OpenSUSE 10.2 DVDs back in the days (I don't know who or why). | Aug 10 21:56 |
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| Tallken | Trying to buy your silence with the EyeCandy, maybe? ;) | Aug 10 21:57 |
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| schestowitz | That's what I thought. | Aug 10 21:57 |
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| Tallken | well you are aware there is a large amount of people that use Linux because they want something that works | Aug 10 21:58 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I am. | Aug 10 21:58 |
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| schestowitz | After the long struggle (25 years), it would be a shame to have 'just' another OS X. | Aug 10 21:59 |
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| Tallken | The 'worst' part is that won't ever happen | Aug 10 22:00 |
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| Tallken | at least Apple 'steals' good ideas | Aug 10 22:00 |
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| Tallken | Microsoft just destroys them | Aug 10 22:00 |
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| schestowitz | I sometimes see Apple 'fans' (well, people who advocate Macs) and I am muchly baffled... to a degree. They essentially spend a lot of energy assisting the bottom line of a very wealth company with $20 billion in the bank. They are like free agents. | Aug 10 22:01 |
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| Tallken | for example, they have the ping, telnet binary from BSD | Aug 10 22:01 |
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| Tallken | they could get some other programs | Aug 10 22:01 |
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| Tallken | allow a decent console | Aug 10 22:01 |
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| Tallken | (BTW, haven't heard about Monad) | Aug 10 22:01 |
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| Tallken | do something decent | Aug 10 22:01 |
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| Tallken | but instead no, they mangle DRM everywhere | Aug 10 22:02 |
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| schestowitz | As for Microsoft and Apple, it runs deeper than this. Linux is not a necessity. There are other kernels. What we need is a change in the way software is distributed, elimination of user-hostile malicious features, etc. There's also hope of reducing corruption along the way and improving culture. | Aug 10 22:02 |
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| Tallken | try to convert the OS into a overpowered Playstation | Aug 10 22:02 |
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| Tallken | Apple fans are the #1 reason why I don't want to buy a Mac | Aug 10 22:02 |
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| Tallken | they annoy me | Aug 10 22:02 |
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| Tallken | I don't want to become like them | Aug 10 22:02 |
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| Tallken | they're agents of the Apple swarm :D | Aug 10 22:03 |
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| schestowitz | Well, they don't bother the Linux forums much, so I don't mind them. They use a UNIX too, but a proprietary platform, no less... | Aug 10 22:03 |
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| schestowitz | Here's the beef: is the transition occurs from non-robust computing (desktop) to modern computing and Free software is left out, that's a shame. Apple just 'exploited' Free (in the BSD sense) s/w. | Aug 10 22:04 |
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| Tallken | because I must say, Macs are beautiful and OS X as well. Pity they complain so much about Linux and "open source crap" without realizing their beloved IM is probably "open source crap", at least if they use MSN Messenger | Aug 10 22:04 |
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| Tallken | Well | Aug 10 22:04 |
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| Tallken | I can't choose one software distribution model because I can't be sure of either one | Aug 10 22:05 |
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| Tallken | So for me the priority is assuring you can have competition | Aug 10 22:05 |
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| schestowitz | I still concentrate less on Apple...and Google. They do their share of evil stuff, BUT... BUT... BUT... none of them actively attacks Free software. Hardly so... | Aug 10 22:05 |
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| Tallken | healthy competition keeps everyone on their track | Aug 10 22:05 |
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| Tallken | Google is evil, they'll create the world's first AI :D | Aug 10 22:06 |
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| schestowitz | It's like sitting in a room with a fox, a lizard and a rattle snake. Which one would worry you most? | Aug 10 22:06 |
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| Tallken | Read this, SCI-FI story, very cool: http://www.edge.org/3rd_cultu... | Aug 10 22:06 |
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| schestowitz | I used to read The Edge. | Aug 10 22:06 |
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| Tallken | If I had an MP5 with bullets, none :D | Aug 10 22:06 |
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| schestowitz | Actually, I created a small wget-based script to make a pseudo-RSS feed of that site. | Aug 10 22:07 |
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| Tallken | I hadn't ever read The Edge, nor I do, just read that short story | Aug 10 22:07 |
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| Tallken | "without realizing their beloved IM is probably "open source crap", at least if they use MSN Messenger" ---> ppl with Macs use usually aMSN | Aug 10 22:07 |
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| Tallken | but going back to "having a system that just works" | Aug 10 22:08 |
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| Tallken | I do want that system | Aug 10 22:08 |
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| schestowitz | Google is about control of information. Microsoft controls tools. | Aug 10 22:08 |
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| *schestowitz still reading very quickly | Aug 10 22:08 |
| Tallken | but I am also aware of the system that allowed the birth of Linux | Aug 10 22:08 |
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| Tallken | to which Microsoft didn't contribute | Aug 10 22:09 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, but skills are the main lock-in and Microsoft knows this. | Aug 10 22:09 |
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| Tallken | as such, even if I just a system that "Just works(tm)", I tend to be a so called "freetard", because in what works you don't touch | Aug 10 22:09 |
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| Tallken | though, as I said, I've quite happily used Windows before | Aug 10 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | I disagree with you assessment that Linux does not 'work'. Some powerful tools like Maya 3D for GNU/Linux are proprietary, but nevertheless, over time you have projects like Blender that go GPL in order to compete better. One defector is enough to make the dam burst. | Aug 10 22:10 |
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| Tallken | I understood your point, but what I meant is this: | Aug 10 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | I'm still trying to find Beranger something that will stop his rants. | Aug 10 22:11 |
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| Tallken | I could choose to use openSuSE because I could not give a damn about my Freedom, and as openSuSE would fill my needs, could work it | Aug 10 22:11 |
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| schestowitz | He's too hardcore and vain to use something 'easy' and 'mainstream' | Aug 10 22:11 |
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| Tallken | Beranger? What?? | Aug 10 22:11 |
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| schestowitz | Try Mandriva 2008.1 | Aug 10 22:11 |
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| Tallken | the same way I could use Windows | Aug 10 22:11 |
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| Tallken | question is | Aug 10 22:12 |
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| schestowitz | I always change distros... for the fun of it. | Aug 10 22:12 |
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| Tallken | I did use Gentoo :P | Aug 10 22:12 |
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| Tallken | no I'm happy with Ubuntu | Aug 10 22:12 |
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| Tallken | no,, I'm happy with Ubuntu | Aug 10 22:12 |
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| Tallken | I feel the need of change but just for the fun | Aug 10 22:12 |
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| Tallken | my point is | Aug 10 22:12 |
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| schestowitz | I used it before. Not touched it in a while. I have two PCs on my desk. | Aug 10 22:13 |
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| Tallken | after all this | Aug 10 22:13 |
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| Tallken | you can defend two points of view | Aug 10 22:13 |
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| Tallken | a) the three (or four?) freedoms | Aug 10 22:13 |
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| Tallken | b) "the development modem which works and, while you're at it, is morally correct" | Aug 10 22:13 |
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| Tallken | more or like open-source vs free software | Aug 10 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | Freedom and market share are not contradictory and development needn't have much to do with freedom. | Aug 10 22:14 |
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| Tallken | though the part after the comma is, at least for me, also important | Aug 10 22:14 |
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| Tallken | which isn't included in the open-source phiolsophy | Aug 10 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, and open source poses the issue as though it's just some source code that we want to see. Some things are verboten. | Aug 10 22:14 |
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| Tallken | *philosophy | Aug 10 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | The ethical issues RMS talked about made a lot more sense over time. | Aug 10 22:15 |
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| Tallken | verbotten? | Aug 10 22:15 |
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| schestowitz | I came to Linux when I was 18 and I knew nothing about RMS. I have a Finnish friend who just told me about Linus. | Aug 10 22:15 |
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| schestowitz | The goals RMS seeks to address are described in some posts I made this morning. One is an interview where he talks about extreme capitalism and nothing is a fine demo of it: the war against OLPC. | Aug 10 22:16 |
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| schestowitz | "verbotten"? My spellchecker does not like it. ;-) | Aug 10 22:16 |
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| Tallken | you said "verbotten" | Aug 10 22:18 |
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| Tallken | what did you mean? | Aug 10 22:18 |
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| schestowitz | Forbidden. | Aug 10 22:18 |
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| Tallken | ah | Aug 10 22:18 |
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| schestowitz | But I leave in tact lots of typos, which I've been fine with since 2004. | Aug 10 22:19 |
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| schestowitz | I realised that I couldn't produce as much output. I realised that I had spent too much time spoofreading, so I gave up on. | Aug 10 22:20 |
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| Tallken | LOL ok | Aug 10 22:21 |
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| Tallken | well gotta go | Aug 10 22:21 |
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| Tallken | cya later :) | Aug 10 22:21 |
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| Tallken | BTW | Aug 10 22:21 |
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| Tallken | liked that "The Edge" article? | Aug 10 22:21 |
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| schestowitz | Haven't finished yet. Thanks. | Aug 10 22:21 |
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| twitter | He he, the more you think about things, the more RMS makes sense. It seems amazing how he figured out software freedom 25 years ago but he had the right personality and was in the right place. | Aug 10 22:40 |
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| schestowitz | Did you read the interview.. I'll admit that I selectively read just portions. | Aug 10 22:41 |
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| twitter | I have to check. | Aug 10 22:42 |
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| kentma | nothing? one thing? | Aug 10 22:43 |
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| kentma | sorry - that was confusing. | Aug 10 22:43 |
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| kentma | RMS has always made total sense to me. | Aug 10 22:43 |
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| schestowitz | It saddens me to see how the money-loving Linux Foundation takes the thunder and visibility of the Free Software Foundation. | Aug 10 22:43 |
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| kentma | The LF does employ some fairly important people, so one of its roles is as a kind of "safe harbour". | Aug 10 22:44 |
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| twitter | It took me a while to get around "free market" brainwashing to understand that free software not only works but is natural when people are free. | Aug 10 22:45 |
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| schestowitz | "Thanks for the hard work, Rich[ard], we'll take it from there and get rich." | Aug 10 22:45 |
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| kentma | LF is a not-for-profit. | Aug 10 22:45 |
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| kentma | We checked the conditions very carefully before signing up. | Aug 10 22:46 |
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| schestowitz | free market is misinterpreted. As kentma said the other day, like IPR, it's a sound bite. It's like 'democracy'. We don't really live in what democracy stands for. | Aug 10 22:46 |
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| schestowitz | LF is funded to run in order to better serve the financial goals of its funders. | Aug 10 22:46 |
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| kentma | Well, I saw it more as spreading the cost across multiple parties of things which need to be paid for, like key developers, and agreed specs and so on. | Aug 10 22:47 |
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| kentma | It was never my expectation that it would be sinister, and my activities there and interactions there indicate that those taking part are doing so in an honest way. | Aug 10 22:48 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, definitely. Collaboratory concepts is just what Amanda McPherson said that old-aged companies are unable to grasp. | Aug 10 22:48 |
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| schestowitz | Freedom, however, goes beyond just collaboration. | Aug 10 22:48 |
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| twitter | Now I see the RMS quote. Did not read that article. I like to get his stuff from his political notes at stallman.org or the FSF. | Aug 10 22:48 |
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| schestowitz | They try to corner or demote him, IMHO (the 'Establishment'). It's a shame that Slashdot talks about Ramji and other phonies rather than give attention to this RMS interview. | Aug 10 22:50 |
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| twitter | The portion you cut sounds like him. Megacorps have used the US government to harm their competitors in the name of "regulation". He often points that out. | Aug 10 22:50 |
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| twitter | Slashdot's firehose is gamed. | Aug 10 22:50 |
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| kentma | twitter: I really didn't understand that phrase - what is "gamed"? | Aug 10 22:51 |
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| schestowitz | I can imagine. A friend of mine says it drives him mad. | Aug 10 22:51 |
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| schestowitz | He also has submissions of his canned by the editors if they don't like it. | Aug 10 22:51 |
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| twitter | I mean people who want to manipulate it have signed up enough accounts to fake popular interest. | Aug 10 22:51 |
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| kentma | twitter: okay, ich verstehe sie! | Aug 10 22:52 |
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| twitter | translate please | Aug 10 22:52 |
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| kentma | sorry, I understand you. | Aug 10 22:52 |
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| schestowitz | Digg's the same. I think I said this to twitter yesterday. | Aug 10 22:53 |
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| kentma | yes, I've seen this on Digg. Gary Stewart's even posting as "flatfish" now. | Aug 10 22:53 |
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| schestowitz | Slashdot democracy and Digg democracy is like US or UK democracy. It's a nice illusion. | Aug 10 22:53 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: I had 4 accounts of his banned for abuse. He is more gentle with the 'flatfish' account. In Netscape, 'flatfish' got terminated for harassing me too. It drove his ballistic. | Aug 10 22:54 |
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| schestowitz | *him | Aug 10 22:54 |
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| twitter | People at Slashdot are trying. UK and US are active enemies. Don't know about Digg. | Aug 10 22:55 |
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| kentma | good. He's a really unpleasant character. One can only imagine that he's paid well in order to be so offensive. | Aug 10 22:55 |
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| twitter | I think I got this from here http://www.prwatch.org/node/7451 | Aug 10 22:56 |
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| twitter | I doubt any of those people are well paid | Aug 10 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | Flatfish Gary Stewart in in Slashdot too. He can post anonymously though. Same with Erik Funkenbusch | Aug 10 22:57 |
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| twitter | those are real people? what is their slashdot user name? | Aug 10 23:00 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: I've seen Microsoft astoturfers from China. They even have Microsoft listed as a client on their site. They just spam blogs with Microsoft products promotion. | Aug 10 23:00 |
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| kentma | Gary is certainly real. Erik F has been around for yearsl, although I don't know if that's his real name - personally, I doubt it. | Aug 10 23:00 |
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| kentma | Gary's name is real, though. | Aug 10 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | I think Erik is real too. He must be up to something quietly. He has been a zombie (night of living dead) since OS/2, so the likelihood of him walking away is nada. | Aug 10 23:04 |
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| twitter | Funkenbush? I hope that's a fake name. I sounds like unwashed girl parts. | Aug 10 23:05 |
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| twitter | Gary Googles out as a singer. | Aug 10 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | Do a search on Google. You'll see. | Aug 10 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | I'd love to know how mcjr (or others) exposed his identity in the first place. He later leaked out a confirmation by accident. | Aug 10 23:06 |
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| schestowitz | This could be grounds to class-action suit if you could then link to him to whatever middlemen Microsoft has (it has plenty for a fact). | Aug 10 23:07 |
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| kentma | oh, it was because mjcr had met him on bulletin boards, before the internet became widely available. | Aug 10 23:07 |
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| twitter | This guy? http://www.garystew.com/im-ceo-bitch/ | Aug 10 23:07 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, and BBS. That's what I thought. Anyway, Microsoft calls this shilling spiel "marketing" or "adding balance". | Aug 10 23:07 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: more like this: http://schestowitz.com/Amusemen... | Aug 10 23:08 |
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| twitter | Somehow those people seem about as real as "Steve Barkto" | Aug 10 23:10 |
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| kentma | Gary really is real. Funkenbush I've never believed in. | Aug 10 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | What ever happened to the Barkto character. Wasn't a law broken? | Aug 10 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | Funken' has always sounded like "this is a word from our sponsor (Microsoft)" or some mouthpiece appearing when damage control is desperately needed. | Aug 10 23:11 |
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| twitter | I don't know what happened to Barkto. I think they just slithered into other names. | Aug 10 23:11 |
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| twitter | and got smarter about trolling. | Aug 10 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | But if the person was real and he ruined forum on behalf of Microsoft, he should be sentenced, no? | Aug 10 23:12 |
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| twitter | Oh yes. I think there's something that should be done when companies intentionally disrupt other people's communications. | Aug 10 23:13 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft: "Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever. Make the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry." (source: http://www.groklaw.net/p... ) | Aug 10 23:13 |
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| twitter | It's like ZDNet and M$NBC to pump up an interview from RMS about a trip to Cuba and ignore him the rest of the time. | Aug 10 23:16 |
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| twitter | Just closing that tab. | Aug 10 23:16 |
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| schestowitz | Well, the sad thing is that media without sugar daddies is dying. This means that we are left with corporate dross. Industry-imposed flicks. | Aug 10 23:18 |
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| twitter | Broadcast and film is dying. Media is thriving. | Aug 10 23:18 |
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| twitter | Have you seen Star Wrek? | Aug 10 23:19 |
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| schestowitz | Is that a parody? | Aug 10 23:20 |
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| twitter | Yes and a very good one. | Aug 10 23:23 |
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| twitter | http://www.starwreck.com/ | Aug 10 23:24 |
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| twitter | They made it all with blue screens and computer animation. | Aug 10 23:25 |
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| twitter | Every high school and university makes plays. Sooner or later, they will make movies this way. | Aug 10 23:26 |
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| schestowitz | I;ve begun posting DTP videos in places. The producer is a nice guy and we correspond sometimes. It's 'free software' filming of FOSS taking over. | Aug 10 23:26 |
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| twitter | I need a clue. Got a URL? | Aug 10 23:27 |
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| schestowitz | Watch the bottom part here: http://boycottnovell.com/200... | Aug 10 23:28 |
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| twitter | Star Wrek is a full length movie under CC. | Aug 10 23:31 |
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| twitter | They have another one, Iron Sky coming out soon. | Aug 10 23:31 |
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| schestowitz | There's room for mashups. | Aug 10 23:33 |
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| schestowitz | In a couple of hours I'll post an interview with Apache's founder. He talks about how, as a music enthusiast, doing mixing of songs is like weaving together FOSS code. | Aug 10 23:33 |
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| twitter | :) | Aug 10 23:51 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.archive.org/deta... | Aug 10 23:52 |
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| *kentma has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Aug 10 23:58 |
