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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 8th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:45 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

toros in our country the rate of corruption is pretty high Feb 08 00:00
toros so open source is not very popular among politicians here… Feb 08 00:04
MinceR our education doesn’t help either Feb 08 00:04
toros education would be the most important Feb 08 00:05
toros and open source just fits so perfectly for this Feb 08 00:05
schestowitz toros: it rarely is. Undercovers like undercovers. Feb 08 00:06
toros today a modern linux distribution has everything what you need at a school Feb 08 00:06
schestowitz It’s like Harry Kissinger… the whole romanticism with mafia, secrecy, exchanging money and covering each others’ back. FSF is their  antithesis. Feb 08 00:07
MinceR we’d need competent, clueful teachers Feb 08 00:07
PetoKraus did you guys see “organic software” firefox? Feb 08 00:07
MinceR but we have very few of those Feb 08 00:07
schestowitz Free software would also enable Hungary as a leader in an emerging area. But multinational still roam the wild there, so it’s not a priority Feb 08 00:07
MinceR so all children see is m$ crap Feb 08 00:07
schestowitz You’d think that countries want to promote local interests until you watch what was done in India… or now done in Iraq, which is run by a puppet regime. Feb 08 00:08
schestowitz This one from rami looks like an FP: http://digg.com/software/Firefox_S… Feb 08 00:09
schestowitz PetoKraus: what’s that organic software thing? Feb 08 00:10
toros the biggest problem is that I don’t really see, how we could change this situation Feb 08 00:10
MinceR that image has been posted a couple times already Feb 08 00:10
rami schestowitz, is that firefox image old? I mean I think I saw it before? Feb 08 00:12
PetoKraus schestowitz: no idea http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/… Feb 08 00:12
MinceR rami: it is Feb 08 00:14
MinceR gn Feb 08 00:18
schestowitz toros: that’s the magic of it. THey make it hard to resist by dividing people up Feb 08 00:23
schestowitz rami: I recall seeing it Feb 08 00:23
PetoKraus Hungary, frankly, can’t be leader in the area Feb 08 00:24
PetoKraus if you just compare their crumbling economy Feb 08 00:24
PetoKraus with ours, it’s pretty obvious Feb 08 00:24
PetoKraus (ours – Slovak) Feb 08 00:24
toros PetoKraus: that’s true… Feb 08 00:25
toros we had great chances 20 years ago Feb 08 00:25
PetoKraus yeah Feb 08 00:26
PetoKraus man, this flat looks so different when it’s clean Feb 08 00:26
toros but now we could be happy if we don’t fall back to much… Feb 08 00:26
PetoKraus it’s gonna be tough with IMF on your neck Feb 08 00:27
twitter oh my, Houston courts shut down by malware, Maximus Windows dude… http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/… Feb 08 00:28
toros Slovakia made a fantastic job in the last ten years Feb 08 00:28
PetoKraus well Feb 08 00:28
PetoKraus you might argue how much did certain things help Feb 08 00:28
PetoKraus but yes, flat tax and therefore attracting almost anyone helped a LOT Feb 08 00:29
PetoKraus twitter: yeah, that was nice one :D Feb 08 00:29
toros but as I heard, the position of Microsoft there is just as solid as here Feb 08 00:30
PetoKraus well it’s majority, that’s true Feb 08 00:30
PetoKraus but firefox has almost 50% usage Feb 08 00:30
PetoKraus almost everyone in the country heard of the word linux in some way Feb 08 00:31
toros we have here also a pretty active open source community Feb 08 00:32
PetoKraus yeah Feb 08 00:32
toros ubuntu.hu has nearly 9000 registered users Feb 08 00:32
twitter I’m amazed so many would register themselves in .hu – young people are so trusting. Feb 08 00:33
schestowitz twitter: “Houston, we got a virus!” :-) Feb 08 00:34
PetoKraus oh btw Feb 08 00:34
PetoKraus do we know what’s conficker doing? Feb 08 00:34
PetoKraus or is it still just sitting bomb? Feb 08 00:35
schestowitz sitting BIG bomb Feb 08 00:35
schestowitz But a fish in a big sea of hundreds of millions of zombies. Almost 99 out of 100 Windows PCs are potential zombies (ripe for hijacking). THat’s how BAD it is. Feb 08 00:36
toros maybe it is the real skynet? :) Feb 08 00:36
schestowitz :-) Feb 08 00:36
twitter tick-a-tick-a-tick-a-tick-a-ticka-tick …… BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMB! Feb 08 00:36
tanderson toros: not possibly…some people use linux :) Feb 08 00:37
PetoKraus schestowitz: that number is not true Feb 08 00:37
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator) Feb 08 00:37
twitter you missed a few nines above. 99.99999999999999 Feb 08 00:37
toros it will be funny, when it explodes :) Feb 08 00:37
PetoKraus not every computer with windows is virus-riddled Feb 08 00:37
schestowitz Pics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SkyNET#SkyNET Feb 08 00:37
tanderson yeah, I know what skynet is Feb 08 00:37
schestowitz PetoKraus: they are all spyware-riddled (Windows) Feb 08 00:37
tanderson but taking over windows computers isn’t taking over the world Feb 08 00:38
twitter yes Peto, some Windows computers are in transit and have never been connected to a network for more than an hour or so. Feb 08 00:38
PetoKraus yeah Feb 08 00:38
schestowitz PetoKraus: source: Secunia, 2008 Feb 08 00:38
PetoKraus and some of them are actually patched Feb 08 00:38
twitter patches are like tampons. Feb 08 00:38
PetoKraus analysts Feb 08 00:38
schestowitz Wait Feb 08 00:38
schestowitz I don’t like Secunia Feb 08 00:38
PetoKraus you know what I mean though Feb 08 00:38
schestowitz Fear mongers vs Linux too Feb 08 00:38
PetoKraus it’s the same lie as saying there’s only 1% marketshare Feb 08 00:39
PetoKraus of linux Feb 08 00:39
schestowitz It’s here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/05/waggener-e… Feb 08 00:39
twitter no, Peto, I don’t know how you can say Windows can be secured when it’s never, ever happened. Feb 08 00:39
PetoKraus i am not saying it’s secured Feb 08 00:39
PetoKraus i am saying, that there are people whose browsing habits and flaky security patches Feb 08 00:39
schestowitz http://www.pcworld.com/article/154944/every_p… Feb 08 00:39
schestowitz “More than 98% of Windows computers harbor at least one unpatched application, and nearly half contain 11 or more programs at risk from attack, a Danish security company said Wednesday. “ Feb 08 00:39
PetoKraus sort of drop the risk of infection down Feb 08 00:40
twitter don’t blame the users.  Windows is just built wrong. Feb 08 00:40
PetoKraus that’s different thing Feb 08 00:40
twitter condoms in a South African whore house reduce the spread of AIDS, but you have to wonder why you are there in the first place. Feb 08 00:40
schestowitz twitter: LOL Feb 08 00:40
PetoKraus all windows pc’s are “potential” zombies Feb 08 00:40
schestowitz “Don’t you know you can’t visit THAT page? For the last time..” Feb 08 00:41
schestowitz “Do you KNOW you can’t just insert a USB device to you PCs????????????/////” Feb 08 00:41
PetoKraus you know there is the difference between risk Feb 08 00:41
PetoKraus and actual infection Feb 08 00:41
toros we had a poll at ubuntu.hu, and it came out, that 66 percent of our users use adblocker… so I think we can triple the number of measured linux users Feb 08 00:41
schestowitz And NoScript? Feb 08 00:42
PetoKraus well i’m using adblock + noscript as well… Feb 08 00:42
schestowitz Net Applications measure some sort of click/ad referral in Win/Mac-oriented sites Feb 08 00:42
PetoKraus i should really allow some pages I tend to visit more frequently Feb 08 00:42
twitter risks that can be avoided are risks that should be avoided.  Using Windows is foolish, like walking a tightrope when you could get someplace by walking. Feb 08 00:42
schestowitz It’s rubbish, by design. Feb 08 00:42
PetoKraus twitter: that’s completely different issue Feb 08 00:42
PetoKraus but saying that 99% of Windows pc’s ARE infected is bullshit Feb 08 00:43
PetoKraus you can’t know the number Feb 08 00:43
schestowitz WIndows had security as an afterthought Feb 08 00:43
twitter M$ thinks it’s about 66%. Feb 08 00:43
schestowitz Reason was lack of foresight wrt network Feb 08 00:43
PetoKraus well Feb 08 00:43
toros in Hungary it is measured with ads Feb 08 00:43
schestowitz See it in their presentation slides (Comes) Feb 08 00:43
PetoKraus i would be surprised if there was security at all Feb 08 00:43
PetoKraus today I had a system Feb 08 00:43
twitter I’m not sure how the others are kept safe, so it would be better to avoid Windows all together. Feb 08 00:44
toros by a company called adverticum (the biggest banner hosting site) Feb 08 00:44
schestowitz toros: bad measure Feb 08 00:44
PetoKraus and i couldn’t force it to create user and give the user existing directory in Documents and Settings Feb 08 00:44
PetoKraus i mean, for goodness sake Feb 08 00:44
schestowitz toros: it assumes populations are equally distributed wrt  habits Feb 08 00:44
PetoKraus AND the funny thing is Feb 08 00:44
PetoKraus it enables you to make more than one Admin user Feb 08 00:44
PetoKraus WTF Feb 08 00:44
schestowitz It’s like comparisong market share of Firefox amongst Linux users and Windows users Feb 08 00:44
twitter Windows is simply broken.  It is irresponsible to recommend it. Feb 08 00:45
PetoKraus yes Feb 08 00:45
PetoKraus that’s why i automatically preinstall Firefox and Openoffice on every PC i touch Feb 08 00:45
PetoKraus today i had this weird case Feb 08 00:46
schestowitz twitter: they get paid to recommend it Feb 08 00:46
PetoKraus the machine would boot up Feb 08 00:46
twitter I assume Windows machines are owned.  Bill Gates has whatever I put into it if it is not cracked, but there’s a good chance multiple cracker gangs own it too. Feb 08 00:46
schestowitz In Windows, “recommends” = “Take bribe” Feb 08 00:46
PetoKraus it even responded Feb 08 00:46
PetoKraus but the shell didn’t at all Feb 08 00:46
PetoKraus i could run apps on the desktop and interact with them Feb 08 00:47
PetoKraus but anything on the “shelf” including start menu was locked for like 10 minutes Feb 08 00:47
PetoKraus and that was freshly (3 months) reinstalled system Feb 08 00:47
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/0… Feb 08 00:47
PetoKraus yeah Feb 08 00:47
PetoKraus sometimes i want to just slap my boss for spreading FUD Feb 08 00:48
PetoKraus like “your printer will not work under linux” Feb 08 00:48
twitter My printer works well. Feb 08 00:48
schestowitz *LOL* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File… It looks like it says “I’m Bach” Feb 08 00:48
twitter He must have bought the wrong printer. Feb 08 00:48
PetoKraus nah, he just doesn’t know Feb 08 00:48
schestowitz Windows supports printers??? I thought you need to obtain drivers.. :-) Feb 08 00:49
PetoKraus today my friend pointed out a nice parallel Feb 08 00:49
toros Microsoft has much more power and might, that any other company or dictator had before in the history. People today use their computer for nearly everything… Feb 08 00:49
PetoKraus everytime someone comes in with problem to our shop Feb 08 00:49
PetoKraus windows related Feb 08 00:49
PetoKraus i take out linux livecd Feb 08 00:49
PetoKraus and fix it :D Feb 08 00:49
toros and who controls the computers, can control the peole Feb 08 00:50
toros and that’s frightening Feb 08 00:50
twitter Yes it is frightening. Feb 08 00:50
twitter Imagine the power to annoy that Bill Gates has. Feb 08 00:50
schestowitz PetoKraus: the FUD goes like, “Linux users never have an issue because they know what they do.” Feb 08 00:50
schestowitz Not because it JUST WORKS. Feb 08 00:50
PetoKraus yeah Feb 08 00:50
twitter He can find out who he does not like and learn all sorts of things about them. Feb 08 00:51
twitter He knows where you shop and can have people make sure the things you like don’t make it to the shelf. Feb 08 00:51
twitter He knows your insurance company and can flip bits in their database so that your bills go unpaid. Feb 08 00:51
schestowitz Google controls your data, but not your physical PC Feb 08 00:51
PetoKraus schestowitz: you never know Feb 08 00:52
PetoKraus i don’t trust anything closed Feb 08 00:52
twitter If Google has Windows on their desktops, Bill Gates controls Google. Feb 08 00:52
schestowitz Microsoft can suck (pull from PCs), Google can only have stuff ‘pushed’ onto it (passive, not consumption) Feb 08 00:52
twitter Google has sucked up a few M$ execs and employees, right?  Their computers are owned even if they are loyal to Google. Feb 08 00:52
schestowitz Microsoft’s puppet Forrester attacked Google just yesterday (ish) Feb 08 00:53
PetoKraus the only thing which is closed source on my 2 pc’s, except wireless ucodes and driver firmwares, is one instance of flash i am not using Feb 08 00:53
schestowitz Something about SE fidelity Feb 08 00:53
schestowitz Let me find it Feb 08 00:53
schestowitz http://www.adweek.com/aw/content_display/news/dig… Feb 08 00:53
schestowitz “A new survey by Forrester Research concludes that such a turnabout could  happen again, despite the solid and growing lead Google maintains in the  search market. “ Feb 08 00:53
schestowitz My response: Did Microsoft -bribe- pay Forrester for this one as well? This sounds like the anti-Linux studies Microsoft bought from Forrester, only directed at Google this time around. Feb 08 00:54
toros Microsoft’s market share is like a loaded gun in the hand: you don’t have to shot it to control people… Feb 08 00:54
schestowitz I also wrote: In case it’s needed, I have a heap of examples to support the bribes links between those two. Forrester: rape us, corrupt us, pay us to do kinky things to your competitors. Feb 08 00:54
twitter The screenplay to the Matrix looked a little further into control of people by control of computers than the movie did.  It included a nifty little deal where Neo gets the Brownies to unlock a car. Feb 08 00:54
schestowitz toros: bad for miliatires too. Several move to Linux Feb 08 00:54
schestowitz Had the US gone to war, it could force MS to suspend all PCs in enemy lines Feb 08 00:55
schestowitz Turkey, Germany and China are already drifting away from Windows, maybe for this reason. Russia too… Feb 08 00:55
twitter “They just do what they are told, they don’t think about it.  They are like part of a machine.  If you control the machine, you control them.” Feb 08 00:55
twitter There are worse things you can do to the enemy’s computers than turn them off. Feb 08 00:56
PetoKraus right, third load of clothes successfully washed Feb 08 00:56
PetoKraus time to sleep Feb 08 00:56
toros for me too Feb 08 00:56
twitter You can listen in on their conversations and use the information to destroy them, as the US did to U-Boats in the second world war. Feb 08 00:56
toros It’s 2:00 a.m. here… Feb 08 00:56
twitter Good night Peto and toros. Sweet dreams. Feb 08 00:56
toros It was a great talk Feb 08 00:57
toros bye Feb 08 00:57
PetoKraus it’s not done yet Feb 08 00:58
PetoKraus :/ Feb 08 00:58
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schestowitz Heh. Feb 08 01:00
PetoKraus my neighbours would have been pissed off Feb 08 01:00
PetoKraus but they are partying Feb 08 01:00
PetoKraus :) Feb 08 01:00
schestowitz Partying Feb 08 01:02
PetoKraus yeah Feb 08 01:03
PetoKraus overrated Feb 08 01:03
schestowitz Let me check the definition as I am curious Feb 08 01:03
schestowitz Hold on. Feb 08 01:03
schestowitz it’s alot to do with imposed perceptions, so I want to see it formalised Feb 08 01:03
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party Feb 08 01:03
schestowitz OK, so let’s see if beverage is what a party comprises as a matter of ‘norm’ :-) Feb 08 01:03
schestowitz “A party is a gathering of persons who have been invited by a host for the purposes of socializing, conversation, and recreation. A party will typically feature eating and drinking, and often music and dancing as well.” Feb 08 01:04
schestowitz OK Feb 08 01:04
PetoKraus right Feb 08 01:04
schestowitz So what do we have here? It’s like the equivalent of tribal dances, no? Feb 08 01:04
PetoKraus what we usually throw is dinner party Feb 08 01:04
schestowitz When does a dinner become a party? Feb 08 01:04
schestowitz If/once you put wine on the table :-) Feb 08 01:05
PetoKraus just read the definition, roy Feb 08 01:05
twitter when you have good guests Feb 08 01:05
PetoKraus it’s on the same page ;) Feb 08 01:05
schestowitz What if the guests are not good? Feb 08 01:05
twitter it can be a bore Feb 08 01:05
schestowitz Does it qualify as “party”? Feb 08 01:05
PetoKraus that’s why you pick your guests Feb 08 01:05
schestowitz How about the phrase “hanging out”? Feb 08 01:05
schestowitz Or “going out”? Feb 08 01:05
PetoKraus that means casual sex Feb 08 01:05
PetoKraus ;) Feb 08 01:05
schestowitz ic…. Feb 08 01:05
PetoKraus * out with, ofc. Feb 08 01:06
twitter there’s nothing wrong with having a good time. Feb 08 01:06
PetoKraus sure Feb 08 01:06
PetoKraus there’s nothing bad to not employ these liberal practices though Feb 08 01:06
PetoKraus i’m too conservative for this Feb 08 01:06
schestowitz I am joking here. Feb 08 01:06
PetoKraus ;) Feb 08 01:06
schestowitz It’s curious when you look at patterns of behaviour as though you are an outsider Feb 08 01:07
schestowitz Where’s that funny video I’m looking for…? Feb 08 01:07
PetoKraus sure Feb 08 01:07
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PetoKraus there was this nice video Feb 08 01:07
twitter preconceived notions can be harmful … like the notions booze companies try to put into you. Feb 08 01:07
PetoKraus where a guy told another one how he would really really shag that one girl Feb 08 01:07
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PetoKraus and it turned out to be the other guy’s daughter, who’s mom was his new employer Feb 08 01:08
PetoKraus :D Feb 08 01:08
twitter tut tut… Feb 08 01:08
twitter that’s called being a penis. Feb 08 01:08
schestowitz I can’t find it now. Doug mailed it to me in December or so. Feb 08 01:09
schestowitz That video of a Kenyan guy analysing Bavarian behaviour Feb 08 01:09
*PetoKraus np: The Alan Parsons Project – Psychobabble (Eye In The Sky) Feb 08 01:10
twitter I grew up in New Orleans.  I’ve seen a lot of strange party ideas.  I’ve had a few bad ideas of my own but generally had a good time. Feb 08 01:10
PetoKraus this song is absolutely amazing :) Feb 08 01:10
twitter People getting together and sharing, it’s good even when it’s bad. Feb 08 01:11
PetoKraus I’m too scared to run Feb 08 01:13
PetoKraus And I’m too weak to fight Feb 08 01:13
PetoKraus But I don’t care it’s all Feb 08 01:13
PetoKraus Psychobabble rap to me Feb 08 01:13
PetoKraus :) Feb 08 01:13
schestowitz Is sharing a paperbook  like a novel a criminal offense? Feb 08 01:14
schestowitz Like giving it to your sibling? Feb 08 01:14
twitter no, like it’s bad if some of the people are abusive. Feb 08 01:19
twitter even then, a party can be good if you let the abusive person know that abuse is wrong. Feb 08 01:21
twitter well, gotta go. Feb 08 01:25
schestowitz l8ers Feb 08 01:27
schestowitz Stupid journo (lackey) writes: “The company has done a reasonably good job developing Windows 7, according to early beta testers. ” I told him: You mean, the ones Microsoft bribed with laptops? Don’t accept ‘consensus’ do blindly.  You’ll be bamboozled. Vista too seemed exciting to journalists in 2006 (“Show us your wow!,” remember?) Feb 08 01:39
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schestowitz Microsoft harms DNS again…. http://www.theregister.co.uk/200… (OpenDNS rolls out Conficker tracking, blocking) Feb 08 01:45
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schestowitz Oh Gawd… Feb 08 01:56
schestowitz twitter: check this out: http://www.tuxradar.com/content/ar… Feb 08 01:56
schestowitz Slashdot made an FP out of this site when you submitted and they seem to have snuck in a VERY old article into Slashdot now… one that they nicked from LXF Feb 08 01:57
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schestowitz http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~pau… “This. Is. ALPHA! [This post was supposed to be out yesterday, but somehow I managed to brush my touchpad the wrong way and... well, the dog ate my homework. Or WordPress did. Either way, sorry about the lateness of the hour, and all that. Revised now for more contemporary enjoyment. -- Ed.]“ Feb 08 02:08
schestowitz That’s the current leader of Fedora. One other Mandriva hacker has just joined Red Hat and he’s moving to centos.. http://linsec.ca/blog/2009/02/06/upgradin… Feb 08 02:11
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schestowitz gn Feb 08 02:59
oiaohm Nothing is as much fun as server eating your homework Feb 08 04:21
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Omar87 hi, schestowitz Feb 08 07:06
acidburn hello Feb 08 07:06
Omar87 acidburn: Hi Feb 08 07:06
Omar87 You might wanna see this: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks… Feb 08 07:07
acidburn hi imar Feb 08 07:07
acidburn sry,omar Feb 08 07:08
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acidburn hello there zerocool Feb 08 07:08
zer0c00l acidburn: welcome to boycottnovell Feb 08 07:11
acidburn thank uzerocool Feb 08 07:11
zer0c00l acidburn:thanks for what? Feb 08 07:14
acidburn for the welcome,duh Feb 08 07:14
acidburn courtesy :P Feb 08 07:14
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acidburn hi Feb 08 08:55
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schestowitz Morning. Feb 08 09:32
trmanco Microsoft’s secret deals on open source: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/leader/0,1… Feb 08 09:53
schestowitz I think I saw that Feb 08 09:53
schestowitz I have another one on it Feb 08 09:53
schestowitz It shows the harms of the Novell deal which started all these extortions. Feb 08 09:54
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MinceR geekings Feb 08 11:35
schestowitz Something has been hammering on BN since yesterday… Feb 08 11:48
schestowitz – 21509 pages! Is this an archiver? Feb 08 11:49
schestowitz http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&… Feb 08 11:49
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PetoKraus schestowitz: http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryinp… Feb 08 11:59
schestowitz I can’t see it among recent visitor to check HTTP headers Feb 08 12:02
schestowitz ┌─(roy@localhost Sun, 08 Feb 09)─—————— ——————————————─(/home/roy/Desktop)────┐ Feb 08 12:04
schestowitz └─(12:04 $)─> gunzip boycottnovell.com-Feb-2009.gz Feb 08 12:04
schestowitz └─(12:05 $)─> grep boycottnovell.com-Feb-2009       Feb 08 12:05
schestowitz – - [07/Feb/2009:21:27:52 -0500] “GET /wp2pdf/wp2pdf.php?p=1245 HTTP/1.1″ 200 13982 “http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/3…” “Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1) ; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506)” Feb 08 12:05
schestowitz It’s just crawling all over the place. Maybe a zombie? Feb 08 12:06
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Eruaran hello Feb 08 12:22
schestowitz http://i.gizmodo.com/5144618/man-with-microsof… Man With Microsoft Tattoo Laid Off, Still Lives By Company Mantra Feb 08 12:23
schestowitz Hey, Eruaran Feb 08 12:23
Eruaran M$ latest propaganda onslaught is on I see Feb 08 12:24
Eruaran I’ve noticed they’re banging the drum loudly now, attacking Linux on netbooks Feb 08 12:25
schestowitz Any new stuff? Feb 08 12:25
Eruaran you prolly posted them Feb 08 12:25
schestowitz Yes, it’s like the “NC is Dead” tour Feb 08 12:25
schestowitz Microsoft operates like an unaccountable totality…details here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/19/ga… Feb 08 12:26
schestowitz I am working on another 66-page document about their criminal behavious, which is endorsed by Bill Gates. That too sheds light on how they fight Linux. Feb 08 12:27
Eruaran Have you heard about Windows 7 “starter” edition ? Feb 08 12:28
Eruaran Slated to be installed on netbooks ? Feb 08 12:28
schestowitz Yes Feb 08 12:28
schestowitz Vapourware exposed Feb 08 12:28
Eruaran Its pathetic Feb 08 12:28
schestowitz I am concerned about the behaviour, not the example Feb 08 12:28
schestowitz I’d rather expose the things I’ve been seeing Feb 08 12:28
Eruaran yes Feb 08 12:28
schestowitz I’m losing hope for this system Feb 08 12:28
Eruaran I have been discouraged lately Feb 08 12:29
schestowitz I’ve just found Reuters quoting a crony on Yahoo-Google Feb 08 12:29
schestowitz This is SICK Feb 08 12:29
schestowitz Nader and even Ron Paul say the truth and they get attacked by the press Feb 08 12:29
schestowitz Only the darlings of white-collar criminals can endure ‘election’ where the interests are nothing to do with candidates Feb 08 12:29
Eruaran I’m considering pre-installing Linux on all or most new desktop systems along side Windows installs Feb 08 12:30
schestowitz Look at THIS: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/… Feb 08 12:30
schestowitz It’s SICK. Feb 08 12:31
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 08 12:31
Eruaran I don’t care if its just a 20GB “backup”, I want to see it on peoples systems Feb 08 12:31
schestowitz Like with phramas, they ask and plead for subsidies for themselves to cash in public money Feb 08 12:31
schestowitz This is a well-known scam Feb 08 12:31
schestowitz They preach need for defense to feed technology (loot the public) and then say things like “R&D”, which actually is bollox because studies have shown that this is just used for MARKETING Feb 08 12:32
schestowitz The public is ask to sponsored its own brainwash under guise like “security” (for tech) or “cancer” (for big pharmas) Feb 08 12:32
schestowitz And the Gates trolls is now feeding himself under “charity” guide Feb 08 12:32
schestowitz *guise Feb 08 12:33
Eruaran sounds like they’re looking for a bailout Feb 08 12:33
schestowitz Feeding the big pharamas with government-imposed monopolies (patents) by pretending to contribute, then asking governments to chip in and FUND the pharmas his FOUNDRY is an INVESTOR in. He makes money from sentimental blackmail and the press refuses to see this. Feb 08 12:34
schestowitz This is very, very, very SICK. Feb 08 12:34
Eruaran This is why the US economy is collapsing Feb 08 12:34
oiaohm The are no rules in love war and business. Feb 08 12:34
oiaohm there are no rules in love war and business Feb 08 12:34
schestowitz I also see the self-appointed economic ‘export’ Feb 08 12:35
schestowitz *expert’: http://uk.reuters.com/article/marke… Feb 08 12:35
oiaohm The goverments of the world are idiots Feb 08 12:35
Eruaran Every time a country is an attractive credit playground where banks and investors around the world invest in it and feed the credit monster – that country economically blows up. This is what is happening to the US right now. Feb 08 12:35
oiaohm Current money mess is caused by debt. Feb 08 12:35
schestowitz Prelude to either looting or opportunity to rob people of their rights. Classic case of invoking “emergency” to justify one’s own exploitation of the system Feb 08 12:36
oiaohm Just they did not know they were owning. Feb 08 12:36
schestowitz Yes Feb 08 12:36
schestowitz Master Greenspan: spend, spend. Feb 08 12:36
oiaohm Solution to current money problems is deal with public debt. Feb 08 12:36
Eruaran Australia is much better off Feb 08 12:36
Eruaran economically Feb 08 12:37
schestowitz Like an obese man  being told to eat  more for the misery to go away Feb 08 12:37
Eruaran not immune, but better off Feb 08 12:37
schestowitz Yes Feb 08 12:37
oiaohm Ie if person is lossing all there income to credt cards and gambling there is no money free for businesses. Feb 08 12:37
schestowitz Microsoft digital ad shop Razorfish lays off 70 < http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesst… >\ Feb 08 12:37
oiaohm Australia is heading into the grave yard very fast. Feb 08 12:37
schestowitz oiaohm: it doesn’t matter to them if they are debt Feb 08 12:37
schestowitz They much public resources Feb 08 12:37
oiaohm Yes it does in time. Feb 08 12:37
Eruaran Australia is not in debt, they’re debating on spending up the surplus and putting the country in deficit in order to stave off the spectre of mass unemployment Feb 08 12:37
schestowitz That is, the private company feed their founders at the expense of the broad ‘economy’ Feb 08 12:38
oiaohm Debts have to be paid back. Feb 08 12:38
oiaohm sooner or latter. Feb 08 12:38
oiaohm That is the complete problem in this system. Feb 08 12:38
oiaohm It will get really out of control if for colosures start on countries. Feb 08 12:38
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, CHina or Dubai will buy GM, GE, Citigroup etc. for pennies one day, if there’s anything left of these. Feb 08 12:38
oiaohm Please notes that has happened in the past. Feb 08 12:38
schestowitz Yes Feb 08 12:39
schestowitz And no lessons learned Feb 08 12:39
schestowitz People have short memory spans. Feb 08 12:39
oiaohm We are not fully out of control of yet. Feb 08 12:39
oiaohm Spending more money is not the solution. Feb 08 12:39
Eruaran On one side, the opposition doesn’t want the government to spend. But conversely, the commercial economy is convulsing… surpluses are saved up for emergencies like this one. Feb 08 12:39
oiaohm Making the money currently in the system stay it it longer is the solution. Feb 08 12:39
schestowitz They resort to fashionable consumption because commercials and consumerism trump logic. Feb 08 12:39
oiaohm Just lets say you cut off credit card debt. Feb 08 12:40
schestowitz “Out of funds? Get another credit card!” Feb 08 12:40
oiaohm How much of a boost do you think that would give. Feb 08 12:40
oiaohm Credit card you have to pay the extreamly high interest. Feb 08 12:40
oiaohm Or go under. Feb 08 12:40
schestowitz Eruaran: that why they embark on expansionism. Feb 08 12:40
Eruaran If the government does not spend to help business, then businesses will slash and burn, meaning mass unemployment. People can argue their ideology all they like. The fact is, here in Australia at least, that spending the surplus may be cheaper than paying unemployment benefits out to millions of unemployed people. Feb 08 12:41
schestowitz They take the suffering elsewhere to maintain domination… after the extermination of independence in America in the 80s Feb 08 12:41
oiaohm Eruaran goverment does not need to spend. Feb 08 12:41
oiaohm Instead they need to keep money cycling. Feb 08 12:41
Eruaran thats the problem Feb 08 12:41
Eruaran it isnt Feb 08 12:41
oiaohm What they are doing is like putting money in a bucket with millions of holes. Feb 08 12:42
schestowitz Government = corporations Feb 08 12:42
oiaohm It is not staying in the market. Feb 08 12:42
Eruaran well known nation wide businesses are already going under Feb 08 12:42
schestowitz You’d fool yourself if you thought they don’t prioritise the managers and their bonuses. Feb 08 12:42
schestowitz That’s why they have things like bailouts Feb 08 12:42
Eruaran Its a cycle Feb 08 12:42
schestowitz The money is better spent in other ways Feb 08 12:42
Eruaran This is a particularly bad one Feb 08 12:42
oiaohm BLocking credit cards and other major leachers of free money will release money to cycle. Feb 08 12:42
schestowitz But the public gets no vote on it Feb 08 12:42
oiaohm Remember banks are not loaning to each other either that much. Feb 08 12:43
schestowitz People like Murdoch and Ballmer get to say what’s done to resolve the crisis folks like them creater Feb 08 12:43
oiaohm So market is in a stalled state. Feb 08 12:43
Eruaran they dont trust each other Feb 08 12:43
Eruaran you cant get money flowing if banks dont trust anyone Feb 08 12:43
oiaohm People are in fear so are paying of there debts Feb 08 12:43
oiaohm So no matter how much money you throw in at moment its all going to vaporise. Feb 08 12:44
Eruaran I saw an extraordinary ad on tv last night Feb 08 12:44
oiaohm In a few months. Feb 08 12:44
Eruaran some place was advertising the usual ‘buy now pay later’ credit thing Feb 08 12:44
Eruaran 24 months interest free and all that Feb 08 12:44
Eruaran but… Feb 08 12:44
oiaohm Deal with what is causing it to vaporise. Feb 08 12:44
Eruaran they were advertising, “no credit checks” Feb 08 12:44
Eruaran thats desperate Feb 08 12:44
amarsh04 whilst Dame Elizabeth Murdoch had her 100th birthday, Victoria had their worst bushfires on record Feb 08 12:45
oiaohm Then concider throwning money in. Feb 08 12:45
Eruaran oiaohm: yes, some credit company like GE Finance or something like that Feb 08 12:45
Eruaran oiaohm: oh wait… isn’t GE in trouble already ? Feb 08 12:45
oiaohm Between bushfires and floods here we should have a large insurance money entering Australia. Feb 08 12:46
oiaohm The catch is making sure it don’t vaporise. Feb 08 12:46
Eruaran the bushfires have been ba Feb 08 12:46
Eruaran bad Feb 08 12:46
oiaohm Its a really bad wind that brings no good. Feb 08 12:46
Eruaran bushfires in victoria and flooding in queensland Feb 08 12:46
oiaohm they have unlocked a lot of money that otherwise would not have been freed. Feb 08 12:46
oiaohm So nature causes stimulase package Feb 08 12:47
Eruaran I could walk outside on Saturday and see the haze of the bushfires in the distance Feb 08 12:47
Eruaran Despite M$ dirty tactics and propaganda, our customers are interested in Linux systems Feb 08 12:47
schestowitz Eruaran: yes, GE is in trouble Feb 08 12:48
Eruaran It makes $300 difference to the price Feb 08 12:48
schestowitz My sister works for GE (*cough cough**) Feb 08 12:48
Eruaran And customers are interested in $300 difference in price Feb 08 12:48
schestowitz Vista 3 should be the name of the new one.. Feb 08 12:48
schestowitz VIsta 2 could simply imply 2 processes Feb 08 12:49
schestowitz It’s like Vista, but hey.. it can do 3 tasks… that’s more than the iPhone Feb 08 12:49
oiaohm Down turns alway have helped open source. Feb 08 12:49
oiaohm remember before the dot com bust. Feb 08 12:49
Eruaran We put a demo on in the store so people can see and try out a Linux system Feb 08 12:49
oiaohm Open source really was just a odd ball thing. Feb 08 12:49
Eruaran This makes a world of difference Feb 08 12:50
Eruaran Its suddeenly not so scary for the customer Feb 08 12:50
oiaohm KDE 4.x is slowly coming into shape. Feb 08 12:50
schestowitz IBMisation of Microsoft: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?… Feb 08 12:50
Eruaran Complete equipped system, no crippleware, no trialware, no viruses, no spyware, loads of apps, OpenOffice, speed and stability, not hard to use – $300 cheaper… Feb 08 12:51
Eruaran Linux is becoming more compelling for people Feb 08 12:51
schestowitz “Under program, customers will get credits if no support response within 30 minutes”  Sounds like Red Hat/Oracle/IBM… is Microsoft realising that giving WIndows for free and offering support is their way forward? Feb 08 12:51
schestowitz US$250 Feb 08 12:53
schestowitz http://news.cnet.com/8301-13845… Feb 08 12:53
schestowitz “It’s not quite as compelling as the $178 Dell Mini 9 from last week, but it’s definitely a better deal overall: Newegg has the Acer Aspire One Netbook for $239.99 shipped. It’s new, not a refurb, and there are no rebates.” Feb 08 12:53
*Omar871 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Feb 08 12:53
Eruaran Microsoft wants people to believe nobody wants Linux on netbooks Feb 08 12:56
Eruaran they blow out of all proportion HP for example, dropping certain Linux models, as if HP is quitting Linux on netbooks… but they aren’t, they are dumping SUSE and releasing new systems that are Ubuntu with a custom HP interface Feb 08 12:57
Eruaran The big manufacturers are still learning what works and what doesnt with customers Feb 08 12:58
schestowitz Eruaran: they have done this for a while. Feb 08 12:58
Eruaran For those who have had problems, the problem hasn’t been Linux, its been the wrong implementation Feb 08 12:58
schestowitz They also ‘joice-jack’ Feb 08 12:58
schestowitz *voice Feb 08 12:58
schestowitz Eruaran: what do you propose as ways of coutering this? Feb 08 12:59
PetoKraus time Feb 08 12:59
schestowitz Some people tirelessly say “no, you’re wrong” Feb 08 12:59
schestowitz Actually, PetoKraus see this BS at work too Feb 08 12:59
Eruaran schestowitz: better implementations Feb 08 12:59
PetoKraus schestowitz: sooner or later these folks will die off Feb 08 13:00
schestowitz My method is different. I try to show the internal mechanism to impose this disinformation, some of which is criminal, AFAIK Feb 08 13:00
schestowitz Microsoft also stood trial for vapourware tactics Feb 08 13:01
Eruaran schestowitz: What is most popular with users already, will work better on netbooks (Ubuntu is better than Suse for example). A simple interface that isnt suffocating (Dell has done a good job in this respect, their Ubuntu netbooks are a winner). Feb 08 13:01
schestowitz This came from the top, people like Gates and Myhrvold. They don’t see rules as applicable to them. Feb 08 13:01
schestowitz Eruaran: yes, looks like it, but they are facing an army of bullies that smile (Microsoft+ecosystem) Feb 08 13:02
schestowitz I’ll expose some docs shortly. Feb 08 13:02
schestowitz The peril is, well… how do you get enough people to become aware of this? Feb 08 13:02
schestowitz http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/time-st… “I am not going to debate the credit rating of GE, nor will I discuss the layoffs at Microsoft. These are happening to every other company too, and the risk already is built into share prices of these companies.” Feb 08 13:03
Eruaran I’ve seen HP’s interface for their own Ubuntu based netbooks its shiny and black but its suffocating and inflexible. It will ultimately be a failure. They could learn more from looking at what Dell has done with Ubuntu, a simple and enjoyable netbook interface (which uses compiz), but one which is easily set aside for a normal Ubuntu desktop if you want, there’s no suffocation, only convenience. Feb 08 13:03
oiaohm compiz is trouble Feb 08 13:04
oiaohm Same with pulseaudio Feb 08 13:05
Eruaran argh Feb 08 13:05
Eruaran pulseaudio is horrible Feb 08 13:05
oiaohm after disinfecting ubuntu of its evils its nice. Feb 08 13:05
Eruaran why did they put that in there Feb 08 13:05
schestowitz Eruaran: the HP UI is not for ‘US’ Feb 08 13:06
schestowitz *’Us’ Feb 08 13:06
oiaohm Have to have Vista’s per application audio volume controls you know Eruaran Feb 08 13:06
oiaohm Basically ubuntu guys are partly nuts. Feb 08 13:06
Eruaran schestowitz: true Feb 08 13:06
schestowitz oiaohm: pulseaudio is OK for me.. in Mandriva Feb 08 13:06
Eruaran I read what Aaron Seigo had to say about Pulseaudio Feb 08 13:06
schestowitz I had my first issue with it just days ago, so I needed to restart Feb 08 13:07
Eruaran I agreed with him entirely Feb 08 13:07
Eruaran Pulseaudio causes daily sound dropouts and problems on my system Feb 08 13:07
Eruaran Kill Pulseaudio, and things start working again Feb 08 13:07
oiaohm schestowitz: been lucky. Feb 08 13:09
oiaohm pulseaudio is like compiz people go months without problems. Feb 08 13:09
oiaohm Then it decides to go boom. Feb 08 13:09
Eruaran Ive never had major issues with compiz… touch wood Feb 08 13:09
oiaohm I have Feb 08 13:10
oiaohm Compiz + ATI particularly bad. Feb 08 13:10
Eruaran ah Feb 08 13:10
Eruaran I have nvidia Feb 08 13:10
oiaohm Compiz + Nvidia stable. Feb 08 13:10
Eruaran I was gonna switch back to KDE today Feb 08 13:10
oiaohm Anything using a DRI 1 style video card driver don’t run compiz on if you don’t want it returned. Feb 08 13:10
Eruaran But I was too lazy and slept instead Feb 08 13:10
schestowitz Heh. http://www.examiner.com/x-1495-Seattle-Jo… Feb 08 13:10
schestowitz “The Association of Washington Business and the Washington Roundtable, whose members include Microsoft and Boeing) are against Gov. Gregoire’s plan, and their fear is that if unemployment continues to rise, they believe it will cause higher unemployment taxes in 2010 and beyond.” Feb 08 13:10
schestowitz Yeah, let Microsoft et al decide ‘for the public’ Feb 08 13:11
oiaohm Ie VIA INTEL ATI all effected by DRI 1 defects. Feb 08 13:11
oiaohm I have more work now than I had 6 months ago. Feb 08 13:11
oiaohm Most of the issue I am doing different work to what I did 6 months ago. Feb 08 13:12
oiaohm This is part of the issue people cannot adpet to the problems. Feb 08 13:12
schestowitz Since when has pulseaudio been in most distros? Fedora 9 first..? Feb 08 13:13
schestowitz I think Red Hat hired its dev Feb 08 13:13
oiaohm Fedora is secound Feb 08 13:14
oiaohm Ubuntu had it first. Feb 08 13:14
oiaohm Yes case of Ubuntu brain fried is Pulseaudio.. Feb 08 13:14
amarsh04 back soon, trying to get to the bottom of okular crashing Feb 08 13:15
*amarsh04 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Feb 08 13:16
schestowitz Pulseaudio’s been good to me. Feb 08 13:17
schestowitz rami had problems with it (see last night’s log) Feb 08 13:17
schestowitz He uses Ubuntu Feb 08 13:17
trmanco Ubuntu + Compiz Fusion is stable at least for me and my cousin Feb 08 13:19
trmanco I’m using OSS drivers, my cousin is using the proprietary blob Feb 08 13:19
schestowitz Same here. Feb 08 13:20
trmanco both of our chips are R430 based Feb 08 13:21
oiaohm I have been in the winehq forum long enough. Feb 08 13:23
*amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-175-21.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 08 13:23
oiaohm I have had thousands of people tell me compiz is stable on Dri 1 hardware only to have to say sorry later when its malfunctioned. Feb 08 13:24
oiaohm Its out comes are nice mixed bag. Feb 08 13:24
oiaohm everything from interface completely dieing to opengl programs failing to start and sometimes just disappearing windows without reason. Feb 08 13:25
oiaohm This has nothing to do with distribution.  Its everything to do with the way DRI 1 is designed.  Only 1 opengl application at a time on DRI 1. Feb 08 13:25
oiaohm With compiz + a opengl program you end up with two that equals big bad problems. Feb 08 13:26
oiaohm Its a race condition. Feb 08 13:26
oiaohm So its completely random and timeing linked.  Basically running compiz on DRI 1 hardware is playing loto it will break question is how long will your luck hold. Feb 08 13:27
PetoKraus i mean – per app audio setting is nice Feb 08 13:31
PetoKraus but most of the apps already have software volume control Feb 08 13:31
oiaohm At what price PetoKraus Feb 08 13:31
oiaohm Crashing audio stack worth it? Feb 08 13:31
PetoKraus no Feb 08 13:31
PetoKraus did you read what i wrote? Feb 08 13:31
schestowitz I’m sure it’ll mature Feb 08 13:32
schestowitz Maybe merged too soon by Canonical Feb 08 13:32
PetoKraus maybe Feb 08 13:32
PetoKraus i don’t think that it’s a good idea to put this in the stack Feb 08 13:32
Eruaran complicated = bad Feb 08 13:33
PetoKraus proper apps have software volume control already (smplayer, gstreamer-based quodlibet etc) Feb 08 13:33
Eruaran its unnecessary Feb 08 13:33
amarsh04 a friendly kde person suggested running “kbuildsycoca4 –noincremental” as user which stopped okular crashing Feb 08 13:33
amarsh04 I still like having a sound card with hardware mixer and hardware MIDI synth Feb 08 13:34
Eruaran kde persons are always friendly ;) Feb 08 13:34
PetoKraus yeah Feb 08 13:34
amarsh04 okular is still *way* slower than kpdf Feb 08 13:34
Eruaran you think so ? Feb 08 13:35
Eruaran I haven’t noticed Feb 08 13:35
PetoKraus well the whole KDE4.2 runs slower on my machine than almost anything else (incl. W7); i hope they’ll get the performance up Feb 08 13:35
Eruaran I like being able to annotate pdf files without having to use acrobat Feb 08 13:35
*oiaohm_ (n=oiaohm@180.124.dsl.brs.iprimus.net.au) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 08 13:35
Eruaran PetoKraus: thats wierd Feb 08 13:36
Eruaran Runs fast on everything I’ve had it on Feb 08 13:36
PetoKraus maybe it’s cause of nouveau Feb 08 13:36
Eruaran driver ? Feb 08 13:36
PetoKraus y Feb 08 13:36
Eruaran that’d be it Feb 08 13:37
*oiaohm has quit (Nick collision from services.) Feb 08 13:37
PetoKraus but anyway, it’s way slower than E17… Feb 08 13:37
oiaohm_ nouveau is highly ustable Feb 08 13:37
Eruaran I like E17 Feb 08 13:37
PetoKraus oiaohm_: yes, but it’s still better than nv Feb 08 13:37
oiaohm_ Anything is better than nv Feb 08 13:37
oiaohm_ My Nvidia card here does not work with nv driver. Feb 08 13:37
Eruaran I’m still using Nvidia’s blob Feb 08 13:38
Eruaran 180.x Feb 08 13:38
PetoKraus i’d have to use the legacy 96.x one Feb 08 13:38
oiaohm_ vesa works Nvidia blob works nouveau fires up.   Nv pure random crap drawn all over screen. Feb 08 13:38
amarsh04 just trying the file open dialogue again… any file dialogue on my Debian unstable system that peeks into the files before getting a list of all files in the directory is not a good implementation of a file open dialogue in my opinion Feb 08 13:38
Eruaran KDE 4.2 is noticably faster and smoother on Nvidia with their latest driver Feb 08 13:39
amarsh04 okular took 40 seconds to populate the file open window in a large fat-32 directory, kpdf took 15 seconds in the same directory Feb 08 13:42
amarsh04 okular timing was after previously opening the file open dialogue so the directory would have already been cached Feb 08 13:43
Eruaran ok Feb 08 13:43
Eruaran thats a bit slow Feb 08 13:44
PetoKraus http://libertarianalliance.wordpress.com/2… Feb 08 13:44
PetoKraus :D Feb 08 13:44
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  21. Links 25/11/2021: Proton 6.3-8 and Linux Mint Compared to Ubuntu

    Links for the day

  22. 3.5 Years Later the 'Master' of Fedora is Still Microsoft and IBM Cannot Be Bothered to Alter Git Branch Names (Refuting or Ignoring Its Very Own Directive About Supposedly Racially-Insensitive Terms)

    Today we demonstrate the hypocrisy of IBM; years after telling us that we should shun the term "master" and repeatedly insisting it had a racist connotation at least 65 Fedora repositories, still controlled by Microsoft, still use "master"

  23. Changing the Arrangement While News is a Bit Slow(er)

    I've made it easier for myself to keep abreast of things like IRC channels and networks (incidentally, a day ago Freenode reopened to anonymous logins) and I've improved monitoring of the Web sites, Gemini capsule etc. (this video is unplanned and improvised)

  24. Links 24/11/2021: Alpine Linux 3.15 and Endless OS 4.0 Released

    Links for the day

  25. [Meme] Jimmy Zemlin Loves Microsoft

    It’s funny, isn’t it? Lying for a living and sucking up to the liars pays off; you get to plunder actual Linux users while leaving Linux morally and financially bankrupt

  26. Links 24/11/2021: PHP Foundation and Flatpak Criticisms

    Links for the day

  27. IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, November 23, 2021

    IRC logs for Tuesday, November 23, 2021

  28. Links 24/11/2021: Rust Crisis and Team UPC Still Faking 'Progress'

    Links for the day

  29. Links 23/11/2021: New GNU Parallel and Memories of David H. Adler (Perl, Raku)

    Links for the day

  30. In Light of Fast-Accelerating Deterioration -- Sometimes Weaponisation -- Getting Off the World Wide Web (to the Extent Feasible) Makes You Saner and Less Susceptible to Manipulation, Lies

    Almost no sites are speaking about it (probably because they have no presence on the Internet except on the Web), but it's time to motivate more people to get off the Web, for their own good and for society's sake...

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