02.27.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 26th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:16 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Balrog_	MS is attacking linux	Feb 26 00:11
Balrog_	http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?s…	Feb 26 00:11
schestowitz	WTF? http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microso…	Feb 26 00:11
schestowitz	Yes, seen that 5 secs ago	Feb 26 00:12
Balrog_	that’s what I sent	Feb 26 00:12
Balrog_		Feb 26 00:12
schestowitz	Software patents fan IBM should sue Microsoft if it had got guts.	Feb 26 00:13
Balrog_	it looks like they’re after FAT/FAT32 patents	Feb 26 00:13
schestowitz	This means that any company with Linux in its devices can be sued now	Feb 26 00:13
schestowitz	TomTom recently complained about patent suits	Feb 26 00:13
Balrog_		Feb 26 00:13
*Omar87 has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Feb 26 00:14
schestowitz	Still..	Feb 26 00:14
schestowitz	Doesn’t matter which patents	Feb 26 00:14
schestowitz	I’ll make a placeholder post	Feb 26 00:15
Balrog_	ok .	Feb 26 00:15
Balrog_	you should check which patents though	Feb 26 00:16
schestowitz	Glyn Moody submitted it	Feb 26 00:16
schestowitz	he’s like a friend	Feb 26 00:16
Balrog_	I see.	Feb 26 00:16
schestowitz	Balrog: thanks	Feb 26 00:16
Balrog_	np	Feb 26 00:16
schestowitz	It’s amazing that we wrote about this in IRC like 5 seconds apart	Feb 26 00:17
schestowitz	Literally.	Feb 26 00:17
Balrog_	yeah.	Feb 26 00:17
Balrog_	I saw it and pasted it right away	Feb 26 00:17
PetoKraus	now now	Feb 26 00:18
Balrog_	“CNet benchmarked Safari 4′s Javascript and found it to be 42x faster than IE 7, 6x faster than IE 8 and the fastest compared to any browser”	Feb 26 00:18
PetoKraus	well	Feb 26 00:18
PetoKraus	benchmarked what	Feb 26 00:18
PetoKraus		Feb 26 00:18
Balrog_	Minefield (firefox alpha) and chrome are close	Feb 26 00:18
Balrog_	like nearly at the same speed	Feb 26 00:18
Balrog_	http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/0…	Feb 26 00:18
schestowitz	I’m creating a “TomTom” category	Feb 26 00:18
Balrog_	IE 8 sucks	Feb 26 00:18
schestowitz	TomTom will receive a lot of attention soon	Feb 26 00:19
schestowitz	Maybe good advertising (exposure)	Feb 26 00:19
Balrog_	IE 7 really sucks	Feb 26 00:19
PetoKraus	anyway	Feb 26 00:19
PetoKraus	there’s nothing about the benchmark they used	Feb 26 00:20
Balrog_	sunspider	Feb 26 00:20
PetoKraus	oh i c	Feb 26 00:20
PetoKraus	so it’s only JS	Feb 26 00:20
Balrog_	see the cnet page	Feb 26 00:20
Balrog_	yes	Feb 26 00:20
PetoKraus	:/	Feb 26 00:20
Balrog_	firefox is getting there	Feb 26 00:20
PetoKraus	well	Feb 26 00:20
PetoKraus	i want 3.1	Feb 26 00:21
PetoKraus	pushed out	Feb 26 00:21
Balrog_	heh	Feb 26 00:21
Balrog_	I use betas	Feb 26 00:21
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/25/m…	Feb 26 00:24
schestowitz	I’ve just posted this in USENET	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	“Hehe.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Microsoft is promoting litigious people and changing its agenda, just like SCO.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Microsoft knows what’s coming.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Windows margins are falling close to $0 (on sub-notebooks first).	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Vista and Vista 7 are a mess that’s not even backward compatible.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Office has just been delayed (again) and in a down economy people won’t pay for	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	it anyway.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	All the rest of Microsoft’s products are usually disasters that would be better	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	called off.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Mark this date in the calendars. Microsoft used to brag about never using	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	software patents offensively… until now.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	And lots of Europeans will be pissed off… enough to give Microsoft the ‘SCO	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	treatment’.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	TomTom CEO: ‘We spent more money on patent litigation then R&D	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	http://uk.youtube.com/watch?…	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	TomTom CEO: ‘The cumbersome patent situation works against everyone who is	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	trying to build business’	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v…	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	It took SCO 4 years until Chapter 11. Can Microsoft survive longer? Not if it’s	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	already in debt.	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Linux is winning!”	Feb 26 00:36
schestowitz	Funny thing is, just a few days ago Asay told me that he is the one asking to see that Horacio patent terrorist (Sun terminology)	Feb 26 00:41
schestowitz	Now the guy is spreadheading attacks on Linux.	Feb 26 00:41
Balrog_	wait a minute	Feb 26 00:42
schestowitz	OK	Feb 26 00:43
Balrog_	I was wondering about something	Feb 26 00:43
Balrog_	but let me check	Feb 26 00:43
schestowitz	I told Asay Horacio was trouble….	Feb 26 00:45
Balrog_	I was wondering why Safari was playing ogg video in the browser	Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_	I have the plugin for that	Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_	(Xiph)	Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_	but that’t OT	Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_	that’s	Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_	*	Feb 26 00:47
schestowitz	http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2009/02/… …..	Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_	what about it?	Feb 26 00:48
schestowitz	Safari and Ogg? Really?	Feb 26 00:48
Balrog_	yeah with a plugin	Feb 26 00:48
schestowitz	I’m surprised Opera doesn’t have it yet	Feb 26 00:48
Balrog_	it’s actually a Quicktime plugin though	Feb 26 00:48
schestowitz	Opera was one of the MAIN PUSHERS for it	Feb 26 00:48
Balrog_	http://www.xiph.org/quicktim…	Feb 26 00:48
schestowitz	Firefox/Mozilla just a follower	Feb 26 00:48
Balrog_	heh	Feb 26 00:48
schestowitz	But FF3.1 seems like the brailblazer in terms of support	Feb 26 00:48
schestowitz	Apple shot down Ogg	Feb 26 00:48
schestowitz	Apple is ANTI Ogg	Feb 26 00:49
schestowitz	So expect no Safari support	Feb 26 00:49
schestowitz	They love Qtime and DRM	Feb 26 00:49
Balrog_	without a plugin	Feb 26 00:49
schestowitz	They also have a relationship with MS	Feb 26 00:49
schestowitz	MS hates Ogg	Feb 26 00:49
Balrog_	well they’re dropping DRM from itunes …. but quicktime does have a higher quality per Kbps … or does it?	Feb 26 00:49
schestowitz	It wants to poison the Web with patents and WinDRM	Feb 26 00:49
Balrog_	and WMV	Feb 26 00:49
schestowitz	Yes	Feb 26 00:49
schestowitz	And Moon Lie/Silver Lie	Feb 26 00:49
Balrog_	Apple is using H.264 and MPEG-standards, at least	Feb 26 00:50
Balrog_	which is better than WMV	Feb 26 00:50
Balrog_	though still, Ogg should be more supported	Feb 26 00:50
schestowitz	KDE 4.2 on Gentoo < http://home.coming.dk/index.php/2009/02… >	Feb 26 00:52
schestowitz	http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=1060	Feb 26 00:53
schestowitz	Turns out they support more than just Ogg	Feb 26 00:53
schestowitz	I made a little typo in my comment there.	Feb 26 00:53
schestowitz	Google Vs. Symbian: ‘My Linux Is More Open Than Your Linux’ < http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/a… >. Nokia/Symbian become a nuisance… more so than Solaris/Sun.	Feb 26 00:54
*schestowitz does some links for BN		Feb 26 00:58
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Balrog_	when will symbian go fully open source?	Feb 26 01:18
Balrog_	ever?	Feb 26 01:18
schestowitz	2010 they say, I think.. but watch the licences	Feb 26 01:18
Balrog_	heh. Is there any code they don’t own that may complicate things?	Feb 26 01:18
schestowitz	“Open source” is a very broad term these days.. not meaning all 4 freedoms (0-3) are necessarily honoured	Feb 26 01:18
schestowitz	Balrog: I think so, I belueve so	Feb 26 01:19
Balrog_	erm.	Feb 26 01:19
schestowitz	Google’s open source has similar strings, but it’s better than nothing	Feb 26 01:19
Balrog_	Java had it, but the community worked it out	Feb 26 01:19
schestowitz	They also find ways to combining with Tivoizatio, DRM, patents…	Feb 26 01:19
Balrog_	heh	Feb 26 01:20
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Balrog_	wait a minute	Feb 26 01:24
Balrog_	isn’t suing over FAT abuse of monopoly?	Feb 26 01:24
Balrog_	(everyone uses FAT for removable RW disks)	Feb 26 01:25
Balrog_	schestowitz: another thing about quicktime is that about the only place you can get DRM’d quicktime media is the itunes store	Feb 26 01:29
schestowitz	In the EU it’s abuse, I think	Feb 26 01:29
schestowitz	It was maybe upheld at the end.	Feb 26 01:29
schestowitz	But it’s dodgy territory.	Feb 26 01:29
Balrog_	schestowitz: I heard they dropped the case when itunes music went drm free	Feb 26 01:30
Balrog_	this patent < http://www.everypatent.com/comp… > is annoying …. may cause problems with flash-drive interoperability if it’s upheld.	Feb 26 01:33
schestowitz	Groklaw is still busy tracking SCO, but only privately	Feb 26 01:34
schestowitz	No post yet about TomTom	Feb 26 01:34
Balrog_	probably doing some research	Feb 26 01:35
schestowitz	Yes, I reckon..	Feb 26 01:35
Balrog_	also it just came out a few hours ago	Feb 26 01:35
schestowitz	But she’s not doing much of GL anymore	Feb 26 01:35
Balrog_	and groklaw isn’t always the fastest to respond	Feb 26 01:35
schestowitz	It’ll be covered a lot. I’m not sure we ought to kick this horse much.	Feb 26 01:35
schestowitz	I have some more urgent patent news from Europe	Feb 26 01:35
Balrog_	??	Feb 26 01:36
schestowitz	I’ve been mailing to big MS moles	Feb 26 01:36
schestowitz	From ACT, comptia, etc.	Feb 26 01:36
Balrog_	and …?	Feb 26 01:36
schestowitz	I’ll post tomorrow	Feb 26 01:36
Balrog_	oh, and you’re absolutely right about the BSA	Feb 26 01:37
schestowitz	I don’t know anyone from there, not by name	Feb 26 01:38
schestowitz	They make a living ‘thanks’ to Microsoft, i.e. thanks to being pond scu	Feb 26 01:38
Balrog_	(about their connections to MS)	Feb 26 01:39
Balrog_	yeah	Feb 26 01:39
schestowitz	There are others	Feb 26 01:40
schestowitz	BN has a decent list scattered around	Feb 26 01:40
Balrog_	they are notorious	Feb 26 01:41
Balrog_	(for trying to find ‘piracy’)	Feb 26 01:42
schestowitz	Yeah, I’ve been having arguments about ‘piracy’ (see comments): http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ostatic/~…	Feb 26 01:47
Balrog_	“Piracy” is a word that refers to copying and selling	Feb 26 01:49
Balrog_	(selling illegal copies)	Feb 26 01:50
schestowitz	OK, last comment there: There should be no software patents* and patents are not “IP”, they are patents. (*few countries got corrupted by shill groups like BSA, ACT and CompTIA to enable these.)	Feb 26 01:50
Balrog_	like the DVD piracy industry in east asia :p	Feb 26 01:50
schestowitz	Maybe so… but not originally.	Feb 26 01:50
Balrog_	Software patents should not be allowed.	Feb 26 01:50
Balrog_	well, that kind of piracy is bad, in any case.	Feb 26 01:51
schestowitz	That’s like me saying that BSA is committing molestation	Feb 26 01:51
Balrog_	heh yeah	Feb 26 01:51
schestowitz	And if it’s repeated often enough then the word becomes accestable	Feb 26 01:51
schestowitz	Like “sneaked”- > “snuck”	Feb 26 01:51
schestowitz	or “judgement”	Feb 26 01:51
schestowitz	Call it counterfeiting.	Feb 26 01:51
schestowitz	Or copyrights infringement	Feb 26 01:51
schestowitz	“piracy” is a made-up term to daemonise	Feb 26 01:52
schestowitz	To make copying be equated to murfer	Feb 26 01:52
schestowitz	*murder	Feb 26 01:52
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Balrog_	gotta go.	Feb 26 01:52
Balrog_	didn’t we have printed book ‘piracy’ anyway?	Feb 26 01:52
Balrog_	It was actually Daniel Defoe who defined it	Feb 26 01:53
Balrog_	“For electronic and audio-visual media, unauthorized reproduction and distribution is occasionally referred to as piracy (an early reference was made by Daniel Defoe in 1703 when he said of his novel True-born Englishman : “Its being Printed again and again, by Pyrates”[2]).”	Feb 26 01:53
Balrog_	(wikipedia ‘Copyright infringement’)	Feb 26 01:53
Balrog_	:/	Feb 26 01:54
twitter	Yes, it is a pity we don’t allow people to share books electronically.	Feb 26 01:54
twitter	Non commercial sharing can create the world’s greatest public library.	Feb 26 01:55
twitter	Those who fight the creation of that library are criminals.	Feb 26 01:55
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schestowitz	Libraries used to be about increasing of sharing (resources)	Feb 26 01:56
twitter	Entertainment “Piracy” is a distraction, meant to cheapen the issue.	Feb 26 01:56
schestowitz	In wealth, we all thrive	Feb 26 01:56
schestowitz	Wealth is not just physical/money	Feb 26 01:56
twitter	Public libraries are all about sharing.	Feb 26 01:57
twitter	People buy books so everyone can read, learn and be entertained.	Feb 26 01:57
Balrog	but content producers still need to make a living	Feb 26 01:58
twitter	Publishers are turning on libraries now too, their greed is complete and unsparing.	Feb 26 01:58
Balrog	so it’s a trade-off	Feb 26 01:58
twitter	Everyone needs to make a living.	Feb 26 01:58
twitter	Let’s be specific. ”Content producers” is a demeaning term to authors, musicians and other people who deserve respect.	Feb 26 01:58
twitter	It is true that free networks and sharing will harm some commercial authors, but the trade off is worth it.	Feb 26 02:00
schestowitz	Those who orchestrate this are not artists	Feb 26 02:00
twitter	You have to remember that most commercial authors are not successful anyway. For each success, there are thousands of commercial failures.	Feb 26 02:00
schestowitz	They are typically middlemen	Feb 26 02:00
schestowitz	These middlemen have over the years created this tier	Feb 26 02:00
schestowitz	It ensured that to be successful, talented people MUST go through them	Feb 26 02:01
schestowitz	To pay royalties	Feb 26 02:01
twitter	Of course, the middle men are as responsible for the failure of most artists as they are for the success of the few they promote.	Feb 26 02:01
schestowitz	They fix prices	Feb 26 02:01
schestowitz	Price fixing on CDs for example	Feb 26 02:01
twitter	They exclude in order to fix price.	Feb 26 02:01
schestowitz	The artists hardly receive what they deserve	Feb 26 02:01
schestowitz	So much of the money you, the customer pays never reaches the artist	Feb 26 02:01
twitter	Their power to exclude gives them the power to rob artists as well as the public.	Feb 26 02:01
schestowitz	Publishing of music and literature no longer needs to rely on their barriers	Feb 26 02:01
schestowitz	Which is why s*it like DRM and Web filtering that just shoot legitimate content and tools came about	Feb 26 02:02
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schestowitz	Hey, jose	Feb 26 02:02
schestowitz	Heard the news?	Feb 26 02:02
twitter	This power was based on technical limitations, shelf space and limited spectrum, that don’t exist anymore.	Feb 26 02:02
jose	which	Feb 26 02:02
twitter	do tell, jose.	Feb 26 02:02
schestowitz	TomTom.	Feb 26 02:03
jose	yes	Feb 26 02:03
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tessier_	Whee	Feb 26 02:03
twitter	hi	Feb 26 02:03
tessier_	http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?si…	Feb 26 02:03
tessier_	As I bet you have all seen	Feb 26 02:03
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twitter	No, I’ve been traveling all day.	Feb 26 02:04
twitter	* looking	Feb 26 02:04
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jose	i figured everyone had seen that.. that’s why I came on	Feb 26 02:05
jose	now every time someone mentions 1% linux desktop share..	Feb 26 02:05
twitter	OMG, they are finally on the attack. Good, they will be destroyed completely.	Feb 26 02:05
schestowitz	SCO	Feb 26 02:06
jose	ooops, i looked at the wrong tab on my browser	Feb 26 02:06
jose	i was talking about this http://osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linu…	Feb 26 02:06
twitter	litigation senility phase, I believe Gates called it.	Feb 26 02:06
schestowitz	They think monopoly is a privilege	Feb 26 02:07
jose	the product is a hardware product though right?	Feb 26 02:07
twitter	well, thanks for passing on the patent attack. I’m updating http://slashdot.org/~twitter/j…	Feb 26 02:07
schestowitz	If they lose because Vista stinks, then they must device monopoly enablers	Feb 26 02:07
schestowitz	Patents in this case	Feb 26 02:07
schestowitz	Granted, BN has covered this for over 2 years	Feb 26 02:07
schestowitz	So we’re equipped with counter ammunition in terms of information.	Feb 26 02:07
schestowitz	Like those TomTom videos I’ve just posted to BN	Feb 26 02:07
twitter	It’s really the beginning of the end for them.	Feb 26 02:08
schestowitz	I sent it to some reporters too	Feb 26 02:08
schestowitz	jose: software too	Feb 26 02:08
jose	>>	Feb 26 02:08
jose	>>we feel that we really have no choice but to pursue legal action to protect our innovations and our partners who license them	Feb 26 02:08
schestowitz	They address the s/w part	Feb 26 02:08
schestowitz	and it they get their way, it’s not good for Android and others	Feb 26 02:08
schestowitz	They use similar code	Feb 26 02:08
schestowitz	So Microsoft may hope to do a binge/spree on Linux parts	Feb 26 02:08
jose	there’s bound to be software there somewhere but i expect they would not sue except for a whole product	Feb 26 02:09
schestowitz	It didn’t work well for SCO. It’ll make them look petty and obnoxious.	Feb 26 02:09
jose	i was working today on a layman’s argument on how sw patents are unconstitutional (US)	Feb 26 02:09
jose	i thought i might show it to marbux since he told me he was working on something like that	Feb 26 02:09
jose	really, bilski might have clinched the deal.	Feb 26 02:10
jose	i can’t see the supreme court going back	Feb 26 02:10
jose	but	Feb 26 02:10
jose	i did not see an unconstitutional argument.. free speech/expression and such	Feb 26 02:10
jose	US law	Feb 26 02:10
jose	seeing rms’ video	Feb 26 02:11
jose	helped me focus on the sw as math	Feb 26 02:11
jose	it isn’t math per say	Feb 26 02:11
jose	but it’s, like thought, math, logic, writing, etc…	Feb 26 02:12
jose	ideal	Feb 26 02:12
jose	totally based on ideal	Feb 26 02:12
jose	real patents (nonsoftware, nonbusiness, etc) are all based on overcoming physical imperfections	Feb 26 02:12
jose	whether a process or a machine patent	Feb 26 02:12
jose	sw, like thought.. or like speech once it’s placed in a computer’s memory..	Feb 26 02:13
jose	is ideal and removed 100% from the real world	Feb 26 02:13
jose	it only caters to a perfect abstract machine	Feb 26 02:13
jose	the patent innovation is the computer itself, the transistor logic solution that models boolean algebra quite well (with error correcting), etc	Feb 26 02:14
jose	i’m hoping someone will sue microsoft or arcadia etc	Feb 26 02:14
jose	pre-emptively	Feb 26 02:14
jose	to demolish their entire portfolio	Feb 26 02:14
jose	(self-defense)	Feb 26 02:14
jose	msft would take a hit if their precious patent porfolio loses it’s sting against sw	Feb 26 02:15
jose	(msft, the stock)	Feb 26 02:15
schestowitz	Hm……	Feb 26 02:18
jose	..another clue to the ideal bit	Feb 26 02:18
schestowitz	Actually..	Feb 26 02:18
jose	is the $0 cost to create, copy, distribute	Feb 26 02:18
schestowitz	I was sent this bizarre stuff from OIN	Feb 26 02:18
schestowitz	About BN patents	Feb 26 02:18
schestowitz	No idea why…	Feb 26 02:19
schestowitz	I didn’t reply	Feb 26 02:19
jose	BN?	Feb 26 02:19
schestowitz	Offering an interview… but it felt like they are promoting BM patents	Feb 26 02:19
schestowitz	Wait..	Feb 26 02:19
schestowitz	They sent it twice even	Feb 26 02:19
schestowitz	Again today..	Feb 26 02:19
jose	ask for permission to share it (or portions of the email)	Feb 26 02:19
jose	what do you mean by BN patents?	Feb 26 02:20
schestowitz	“CHASE RECEIVES PATENT FOR FRAUD PROTECTION BREAKTHROUGH”	Feb 26 02:20
schestowitz	“Wilmington, Del. – Feb. 23, 2009 – Building on its commitment to protect consumers, Chase Card Services, the credit card division of JP Morgan Chase & Co. [NYSE: JPM], announced that it recently received a patent from the United States Patent Office for its breakthrough fraud prevention technology, First Watch Intelligence.”	Feb 26 02:20
schestowitz	I can’t quote the E-mail’s body because it asks not to	Feb 26 02:20
jose	ok	Feb 26 02:20
jose	i understand there is a lot of “intelligence” in sw	Feb 26 02:21
jose	but so is there in math and writing and …	Feb 26 02:21
jose	copyright and trade secret are there still	Feb 26 02:21
jose	well, trade secret is not there for academic stuff (which is public by definition almost)..	Feb 26 02:22
jose	in a foss world, ibm and others will want patents	Feb 26 02:22
jose	but i want lots of things as well	Feb 26 02:22
jose	i would settle for a compromise if all foss was safe	Feb 26 02:22
jose	define foss… not sure .. something close to “free software”	Feb 26 02:23
jose	for attacking linux.. foss friendly trolls now should attack microsoft	Feb 26 02:23
jose	btw, sorry to appear to be asleep here.. but getting back to OIN.. will they retaliate.. is this something they would do?	Feb 26 02:24
jose	schestowitz?	Feb 26 02:24
schestowitz	I don’t know	Feb 26 02:24
schestowitz	It’s off topic for them to send I think	Feb 26 02:24
jose	and what was that about “BN patents”?	Feb 26 02:24
*schestowitz multitasks with BN links		Feb 26 02:24
schestowitz	BN patents??!!?!	Feb 26 02:24
jose	BN?	Feb 26 02:25
jose	boycottnovell?	Feb 26 02:25
schestowitz	That’s like saying “catholic brother”	Feb 26 02:25
schestowitz	*brothel	Feb 26 02:25
schestowitz	Or rather the opposite	Feb 26 02:25
schestowitz	Oh..	Feb 26 02:25
schestowitz	BM	Feb 26 02:25
jose	ok	Feb 26 02:25
schestowitz	Business Methods	Feb 26 02:25
jose	so what’s bm?	Feb 26 02:25
jose	ok	Feb 26 02:25
jose	now i’ll go back and reread	Feb 26 02:26
schestowitz	I need to read into the TomTom case.	Feb 26 02:33
schestowitz	It’ll get lots of coverage in the press	Feb 26 02:33
twitter	Software patents are either math or business methods.	Feb 26 02:33
twitter	Machine instructions are not an invention, no matter how clever.	Feb 26 02:33
twitter	They are particular expressions, properly covered by copyright, or they are math which always a discovery not an invention.	Feb 26 02:34
twitter	jose, to describe this to a non technical audience you need to describe the purpose and extent of patents in the first place. That requires explaining what an invention is and why inventions are worth protecting with patents. The goal is to get people to share their inventions.	Feb 26 02:36
schestowitz	They are listening to words like “pirates’	Feb 26 02:37
schestowitz	That’s not helpful	Feb 26 02:37
twitter	Most reasonable lawyers assume that people will go on inventing things regardless of legal protection because inventions are always practical.	Feb 26 02:37
twitter	In fact, it’s practical to keep most practical inventions to yourself.	Feb 26 02:38
jose	twitter, patent lawyers like views of software patents i think.. well some do	Feb 26 02:38
jose	along with math	Feb 26 02:38
jose	i’d draw analogies to law	Feb 26 02:39
jose	bring it to their level.. even though they are smart, but to drive the point home	Feb 26 02:39
twitter	There’s a lot of good literature about US patents, going back to Thomas Jefferson.	Feb 26 02:39
jose	and yet we have them around today.	Feb 26 02:39
jose	the lawyer that was featured on groklaw in a series of postings after bilski	Feb 26 02:41
jose	saw sw as an implementation of math and not math itself	Feb 26 02:41
jose	that’s what he said (paraphrased)	Feb 26 02:42
schestowitz	IP is a term that’s being used to confuse. Knowledge is privilege, not ownership. And patents are no copyrights. Different animals altogether.	Feb 26 02:45
schestowitz	Bilski’s back to court	Feb 26 02:45
schestowitz	They’ll try to appeal, IIRC.	Feb 26 02:45
jose	i take it back, sw is an application of math.. point is that it’s based on ideal human created models (like math or language)	Feb 26 02:47
jose	i want to see oin involved	Feb 26 02:49
jose	might as well see what happens	Feb 26 02:49
jose	lots of time and money will be saved if we can bury software patents for good	Feb 26 02:50
jose	through more court decisions that would leave little doubt as to the boundaries	Feb 26 02:50
jose	imagine that.. employees working on implementing the invention instead of writing about it in a patent application	Feb 26 02:51
jose	remember: patents are meant to bring invention secrets public, but since trade secret exists, patents are used when it’s actually more beneficial..	Feb 26 02:52
jose	thus the best secrets are kept secret	Feb 26 02:52
jose	and the stupid inventions are revealed and given 20 year monopolies	Feb 26 02:53
jose	the monopoly deal (broad patents) means patent the obvious and then add your secret sauce on top.	Feb 26 02:54
jose	worst of both worlds for society	Feb 26 02:54
schestowitz	OIN thinks like IBM	Feb 26 02:55
jose	probably	Feb 26 02:55
jose	that’s why it will be very interesting	Feb 26 02:55
schestowitz	I thought about it earlier… IBM can’t sue Microsoft for the Linux action	Feb 26 02:55
jose	to see if they act	Feb 26 02:55
schestowitz	IBM cross-licensed with M<S	Feb 26 02:55
schestowitz	It’s handcuffed with its crappy sw patents	Feb 26 02:55
jose	i’m curious	Feb 26 02:55
jose	maybe oin will become the oin myth	Feb 26 02:55
schestowitz	OINK.	Feb 26 02:56
schestowitz	I made a picture of a pig that says it	Feb 26 02:56
jose	maybe oin will fight weakly so as to sort of lose or draw or not hurt sw patents	Feb 26 02:56
jose	would they cross-license with ms	Feb 26 02:56
jose	ms joins oin	Feb 26 02:56
jose	well, they want to hurt linux so maybe not	Feb 26 02:56
schestowitz	I think MS was invited..?	Feb 26 02:57
schestowitz	I can’t recall.	Feb 26 02:57
schestowitz	Maybe it was something else.	Feb 26 02:57
jose	i just realized something	Feb 26 02:58
jose	ms saw their hand weakened from bilski no matter what	Feb 26 02:58
jose	so they strike many deals and get some money now instead of less later	Feb 26 02:58
jose	they create fud	Feb 26 02:59
jose	and now they attack	Feb 26 02:59
jose	they might think their assets are weak	Feb 26 02:59
jose	but	Feb 26 02:59
jose	ibm has lots to lose	Feb 26 02:59
jose	it’s like a cat grabbing on to a stronger dog in a house going up in flames	Feb 26 02:59
jose	the cat loses 1 of its nine lives	Feb 26 03:00
jose	but the dog takes a much bigger hit	Feb 26 03:00
jose		Feb 26 03:00
jose		Feb 26 03:00
jose	if ibm and company panic, they reinforce ms’ assets/fud	Feb 26 03:00
jose	ms salvages and gains against ibm despite the bilski blow	Feb 26 03:01
jose	btw, (twitter), software being an “implementation” of math is like saying poetry is an implementation of english grammar (not sure if analogy is spot on or off)	Feb 26 03:02
jose	and to finish the cat/dog analogy	Feb 26 03:03
jose	the dog might just run away and save the cat along with it while legitimizing the strength and savviness of the cat	Feb 26 03:03
jose	i say	Feb 26 03:04
jose	dog run	Feb 26 03:04
jose	then eat cat	Feb 26 03:04
jose	everyone will be happier that way	Feb 26 03:04
schestowitz	Maybe it’s time to test Bilski	Feb 26 03:06
schestowitz	I wonder if the suit is related to Rambus	Feb 26 03:06
schestowitz	The timing I mean..	Feb 26 03:06
jose	schestowitz, when you asked me about the news, in the back of my mind (because there were several newsworthy events today) was this http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/25…	Feb 26 03:06
jose	hmm	Feb 26 03:07
jose	rambus was hardware and over submarining into a standard	Feb 26 03:07
jose	anyway, “software” patents can apply to hardware	Feb 26 03:07
jose	however, i think they should not	Feb 26 03:07
jose	to the extent the patent is simply on the ideal modeling encoded as software, firmware, etc.	Feb 26 03:08
jose	to attack software patents you have to deal with the “hardware is software” relationship	Feb 26 03:08
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnLZlGu…	Feb 26 03:08
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jose	some may want to mark the difference as “fixed” vs “soft”	Feb 26 03:08
jose	i think bilski will allow software that controls hw as one unit, but not the sw by itself, say if run on a sw simulator or if borrowed and used in a completely different machine	Feb 26 03:09
jose	schestowitz, the write-up on the right side of that youtube vid is interesting.. still watching the vid.	Feb 26 03:12
schestowitz	Yes, it’s a good series	Feb 26 03:14
schestowitz	I’m going through lots of episides	Feb 26 03:14
jose	rupert is mentioned	Feb 26 03:16
schestowitz	Yes, him too	Feb 26 03:19
schestowitz	But there are better parts in this series.	Feb 26 03:19
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkY…	Feb 26 03:20
jose	why?	Feb 26 03:20
jose	i don’t have time now.. i’ll leave soon. i liked part 8.. i’ll see this last one you mentioned.. but that’s it!!!	Feb 26 03:21
jose	the wolf in the car was funny	Feb 26 03:22
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schestowitz	Which wolf?	Feb 26 03:28
schestowitz	I mostly listen to these videos.	Feb 26 03:28
jose	the 40 second mark	Feb 26 03:29
jose	onward	Feb 26 03:29
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jose	oh, the first link was part 2 not part 8	Feb 26 03:31
jose	schestowitz, the uk “180″ flip..	Feb 26 03:35
jose	i worried they were might adopt “foss” related to microsoft	Feb 26 03:36
jose	it’s also possible there was a fight or they got a sweet offer (saw the light) by foss advocates/companies	Feb 26 03:36
zer0c00l	really UK is going to support foss?	Feb 26 03:40
zer0c00l	i read it somewhere	Feb 26 03:40
zer0c00l	schestowitz: you are in UK right?	Feb 26 03:41
jose	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0…	Feb 26 03:42
schestowitz	jose: possible	Feb 26 03:42
schestowitz	That’s why Microsoft assimiliated	Feb 26 03:42
schestowitz	To confuse, the remove distinguishing factor	Feb 26 03:42
schestowitz	Microsoft is a nasty PR firm	Feb 26 03:42
jose	it’s too early to get too excited	Feb 26 03:42
zer0c00l	damn	Feb 26 03:44
zer0c00l	sonicwall blocks boycottnovell	Feb 26 03:45
zer0c00l	shit	Feb 26 03:45
zer0c00l	i dont know whether the admin has did it	Feb 26 03:45
zer0c00l	or the sonicwall has did it	Feb 26 03:45
zer0c00l	any way if its the admin…for godsake i am gonna screw him	Feb 26 03:46
zer0c00l	why the admins are damn bad	Feb 26 03:47
zer0c00l	i dont know	Feb 26 03:47
zer0c00l	i am not watchin p0rn in boycottnovell	Feb 26 03:48
zer0c00l	schestowitz: you cannot do anything about it huh?	Feb 26 03:49
zer0c00l	lol it says Forbidden Category “Games”	Feb 26 03:50
zer0c00l	it blocks boycottnovell in category GAMES	Feb 26 03:51
schestowitz	I don’t think	Feb 26 03:52
schestowitz	Do you have a Web proxy?	Feb 26 03:52
jose	that story quotes a ton of articles:	Feb 26 03:52
jose	http://www.cio.gov.uk/transf…	Feb 26 03:52
jose	>> Open Source has been one of the most significant cultural developments in IT and beyond over the last two decades: it has shown that individuals, working together over the Internet, can create products that rival and sometimes beat those of giant corporations; it has shown how giant corporations themselves, and Governments, can become more innovative, more agile and more cost-effective by building on the fruits of community work; and from its IT base t	Feb 26 03:53
jose	he Open Source movement has given leadership to new thinking about intellectual property rights and the availability of information for re–use by others.	Feb 26 03:53
schestowitz	BN is about Microsoft gaming the world and Novell too.	Feb 26 03:53
jose	http://opensource.org/node/396	Feb 26 03:53
jose	>> As billions of bail-out dollars become trillions, it is clear that we need to be realistic about the nature and the solutions to our world-wide software crisis. Today the world spends more than $3T USD per year on systems that are largely based on vendor lock-in, not value and not free and fair competition. What is most shocking about the $3T USD number is not its sheer size alone, but the fact that fully $1T USD of that number is written off ever year	Feb 26 03:53
jose	when people are forced to abandon their projects before putting them into production. The place to fix that problem is not in any specific piece of software (most of which has 20-30 defects per 1000 source lines of code), but in the fundamental system of competition that is responsible for ensuring that malignant software can be successfully removed in the first place. The UK Government’s decision is a strong step in the direction of properly restoring	Feb 26 03:53
jose	the right kind of competition in the marketplace. The days of rewarding past performance, especially the performance of amassing billions of dollars based on strategic lock-in, must be put behind us. And we should treat any use of such funds for furthering vendor lock-in as extremely suspect and worthy of an immediate and full investigation.	Feb 26 03:53
jose	ETc etc	Feb 26 03:53
zer0c00l	schestowitz: check your mail	Feb 26 03:54
jose	“Open Source, Open Standards and Re–Use: Government Action Plan”	Feb 26 03:54
zer0c00l	schestowitz: i have webproxy	Feb 26 03:54
zer0c00l	i will use it	Feb 26 03:54
jose	“Shared Source, OOXML, and reuse Windows: Government Buyout Plan”	Feb 26 03:55
schestowitz	zer0c00l: OK	Feb 26 04:01
zer0c00l	schestowitz: does BN has secure connection enabled	Feb 26 04:02
zer0c00l	?	Feb 26 04:02
zer0c00l	by default we can bypass most of the firewalls with https connection	Feb 26 04:02
zer0c00l	https://www.boycottnovell.com/ it shows your webfolders	Feb 26 04:03
zer0c00l	not pages	Feb 26 04:03
zer0c00l	can you switch it on	Feb 26 04:03
schestowitz	I don’t think it would be secure	Feb 26 04:07
zer0c00l	i mean it could bypass firewalls	Feb 26 04:07
schestowitz	I can give you my Web proxy	Feb 26 04:07
zer0c00l	thats why asked	Feb 26 04:07
zer0c00l	most firewalls leave https connection untouched	Feb 26 04:07
zer0c00l	ok	Feb 26 04:08
zer0c00l	please	Feb 26 04:08
jose	a related situation (not issue here since there is nothing “important” being passed around) is http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/attack_…	Feb 26 04:11
schestowitz	zer0c00l: check mail	Feb 26 04:11
jose	that ssl exploit ..if i read correctly.. just has https urls rewritten by a proxy (eg, if your network was compromised) to http urls..	Feb 26 04:13
jose	then when you ask for them..	Feb 26 04:13
zer0c00l	aah…the word proxy is blocked here	Feb 26 04:13
zer0c00l		Feb 26 04:13
jose	the proxy knows you really want https and gets it..	Feb 26 04:13
zer0c00l	any way i am using https://www.ctunnel.com/	Feb 26 04:14
jose	but your browser’s defensive warning system won’t kick in and you can have man-in-middle attack if you ignore broken certificates, etc	Feb 26 04:14
jose	i don’t know how a browser would handle an https hand-shake arising from a website you called via http	Feb 26 04:15
jose	in any case it seems broswers can be patched to fix this and continue to warn users normally	Feb 26 04:15
jose	it’s not a vulnerability as it is to exploit our bad habits or ignoring certificates and such.. i think	Feb 26 04:16
jose	it’s not a vulnerability as much as it is to exploit our bad habits or ignoring certificates and such.. i think	Feb 26 04:16
jose	whatever.. i’m tired.	Feb 26 04:17
jose	going to bed	Feb 26 04:17
schestowitz	Same here.	Feb 26 04:18
zer0c00l	good night	Feb 26 04:18
*zer0c00l downloads sslstrip		Feb 26 04:20
jose	don’t do it zer0c00l .. noooooooo	Feb 26 04:23
jose		Feb 26 04:23
zer0c00l	jose: just for fun	Feb 26 04:23
zer0c00l	jose: i wont catch misuse	Feb 26 04:24
zer0c00l		Feb 26 04:24
zer0c00l	*i wont misuse	Feb 26 04:24
zer0c00l	LOL	Feb 26 04:24
jose	i wonder which browsers have this problem..	Feb 26 04:25
jose	as it seems to be a browser misimplementation	Feb 26 04:25
zer0c00l	http://www.thoughtcrime.org/software/sslstrip/	Feb 26 04:25
jose	gn	Feb 26 04:32
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*zer0c00l says room sleeps		Feb 26 05:15
zer0c00l	bye	Feb 26 05:15
zer0c00l	gn	Feb 26 05:15
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vida18	Microsoft sues TomTom over Linux and other patent claims.	Feb 26 07:02
vida18	http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microso…	Feb 26 07:02
myRicky_cn	?	Feb 26 07:02
vida18	I was surprised when I learned this news.	Feb 26 07:04
vida18	I was surprised when I learnt this news.	Feb 26 07:08
myRicky_cn	haha	Feb 26 07:08
vida18	What time is it in USA ? I am in France.	Feb 26 07:09
myRicky_cn	i am in Beijing	Feb 26 07:10
myRicky_cn	hehe	Feb 26 07:10
myRicky_cn	it is 3:17	Feb 26 07:10
vida18	In France, it’s 8: 17	Feb 26 07:10
myRicky_cn	15:18	Feb 26 07:11
myRicky_cn	PM	Feb 26 07:11
myRicky_cn	and u	Feb 26 07:11
vida18	8:18 a.m	Feb 26 07:12
myRicky_cn	oh my god	Feb 26 07:14
vida18	?	Feb 26 07:16
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myRicky_cn	ÓÐÕÐÆ¸µÄÃ»£¿£¿	Feb 26 07:18
kentma	it really is very much time to put a stop to software patents. Interestingly, as TomTom is a European company, Netherlands based, one wonders just where MS are taking their case to?	Feb 26 08:02
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oiaohm	http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_s… let the games begin.	Feb 26 08:15
kentma	Microsoft must be in terrible trouble to start this game, particularly in a recession. One wonders just how the EU will respond to an attack on a major employer in this way by a monopolist?	Feb 26 08:42
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MinceR	r4wr	Feb 26 09:32
MinceR	m$ products need to be banned in the EU	Feb 26 09:33
zoobab01	you need patents for that	Feb 26 09:44
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NarbeH	Microsoft sucks …	Feb 26 09:56
oiaohm_	Microsoft is seaming to get a death wish.	Feb 26 09:56
NarbeH	i am one of the persons that hates Micro$oft ….. :-s	Feb 26 09:57
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schestowitz	Like SCO, they don’t kniow what else to do	Feb 26 10:04
schestowitz	They approach debt/already in it and the economy makes it worse for them	Feb 26 10:04
schestowitz	But they are suing many people who are also Microsoft customers indirectly, using intellectual monopolies that are highly notorious, esp. in the EU.	Feb 26 10:05
oiaohm_	World is over for MS.	Feb 26 10:08
oiaohm_	Funny the attack on Linux at tom tom does not contain the 200+ they claim are on the Linux kernel.	Feb 26 10:08
schestowitz	Exactly. That too.	Feb 26 10:09
schestowitz	TomTom uses X too	Feb 26 10:09
oiaohm_	The time to put up or shut up has caught up with MS.	Feb 26 10:09
schestowitz	Supposedly about 50 patents there, said MS	Feb 26 10:10
schestowitz	I think it’s good news if you want it to be	Feb 26 10:10
schestowitz	This confirms that Microsoft realises it can’t compete without sabotaging others.	Feb 26 10:10
schestowitz	It’s good for TomTom too. It gets publicity and sympathy.	Feb 26 10:11
oiaohm_	Now it could get bad for MS as well.	Feb 26 10:12
oiaohm_	Particularly if the fat patents get broken.	Feb 26 10:12
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06drBN8nlWg&NR=1 BlueGene?	Feb 26 10:13
schestowitz	oiaohm_: I think they try to scape those considering Android and other such consortia (OHA)	Feb 26 10:13
schestowitz	OIN is supposed to hop in now and defend Linux by counter-suing.	Feb 26 10:14
schestowitz	Though I doubt it would. OIN is spineless.	Feb 26 10:14
schestowitz	And then there’s Microsoft troll, Nathan Myhrvold. He’s like ‘their’ OIN.	Feb 26 10:15
oiaohm_	Big thing the is there are lot more effected parties.	Feb 26 10:17
oiaohm_	MS could have just open a pandoras box.	Feb 26 10:18
schestowitz	First offensive lawsuit.. not just vs Linux	Feb 26 10:19
schestowitz	They did inititiate a suit before, but no s/w	Feb 26 10:19
schestowitz	They used it against a mouse maker	Feb 26 10:19
oiaohm_	SCO case went south when more interested parites came out the wood work that SCO knew what to do with.	Feb 26 10:21
zoobab01	does someone has the court complain?	Feb 26 10:21
zoobab01	http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_sues…	Feb 26 10:23
zoobab01	they are linked here	Feb 26 10:24
zoobab01	they use forum shopping syaing that people in the Western District of Washington can buy their products online	Feb 26 10:26
oiaohm_	The problem with what MS has done if anyone now finds priorart to the patent they can demard the patent status case is held before MS can proced.	Feb 26 10:27
oiaohm_	That can stall a patent case for many years.	Feb 26 10:27
schestowitz	Big news from Finland	Feb 26 10:27
schestowitz	http://www.tietokone.fi/uutta/…	Feb 26 10:27
zoobab01	Common Name Space for Long and Short Filenames	Feb 26 10:28
zoobab01	prior art is futile	Feb 26 10:28
schestowitz	Someone Finnish sent me this.. “Your Finnish is nearly as good as mine, so nothing is lost by forwarding these directly http://www.jhs-suositukset.fi//web/guest/j…	Feb 26 10:28
zoobab01	argue for subject matter and go to the Supreme Court	Feb 26 10:28
schestowitz	“They have the potential to be very interesting and I am trying to get at least a summary in English or Swedish so I can use it. However, if they are trying to delay interference from MSFTers it will be months before there is an unofficial translation to English or an official translation to Swedish.”	Feb 26 10:29
schestowitz	“Microsoft is the next SCO Group,” said Groklaw	Feb 26 10:31
zoobab01	“Microsoft respects and appreciates the important role that open-source software plays in our industry and we respect and appreciate the passion and the great contribution that open-source developers make in our industry,” Gutierrez said. He said that respect and appreciation is “not inconsistent with our respect for intellectual-property rights.”	Feb 26 10:32
schestowitz	That mug Gavin Clarke is already at it.	Feb 26 10:33
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/200…	Feb 26 10:33