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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 26th, 2009 - Part 1



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Balrog_MS is attacking linuxFeb 26 00:11
Balrog_http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...Feb 26 00:11
schestowitzWTF? http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microso...Feb 26 00:11
schestowitzYes, seen that 5 secs agoFeb 26 00:12
Balrog_that's what I sentFeb 26 00:12
Balrog_:xFeb 26 00:12
schestowitzSoftware patents fan IBM should sue Microsoft if it had got guts.Feb 26 00:13
Balrog_it looks like they're after FAT/FAT32 patentsFeb 26 00:13
schestowitzThis means that any company with Linux in its devices can be sued nowFeb 26 00:13
schestowitzTomTom recently complained about patent suitsFeb 26 00:13
Balrog_:(Feb 26 00:13
*Omar87 has quit (Remote closed the connection)Feb 26 00:14
schestowitzStill..Feb 26 00:14
schestowitzDoesn't matter which patentsFeb 26 00:14
schestowitzI'll make a placeholder postFeb 26 00:15
Balrog_ok .Feb 26 00:15
Balrog_you should check which patents thoughFeb 26 00:16
schestowitzGlyn Moody submitted itFeb 26 00:16
schestowitzhe's like a friendFeb 26 00:16
Balrog_I see.Feb 26 00:16
schestowitzBalrog: thanksFeb 26 00:16
Balrog_npFeb 26 00:16
schestowitzIt's amazing that we wrote about this in IRC like 5 seconds apartFeb 26 00:17
schestowitzLiterally.Feb 26 00:17
Balrog_yeah.Feb 26 00:17
Balrog_I saw it and pasted it right awayFeb 26 00:17
PetoKrausnow nowFeb 26 00:18
Balrog_"CNet benchmarked Safari 4's Javascript and found it to be 42x faster than IE 7, 6x faster than IE 8 and the fastest compared to any browser"Feb 26 00:18
PetoKrauswellFeb 26 00:18
PetoKrausbenchmarked whatFeb 26 00:18
PetoKraus:DFeb 26 00:18
Balrog_Minefield (firefox alpha) and chrome are closeFeb 26 00:18
Balrog_like nearly at the same speedFeb 26 00:18
Balrog_http://crave.cnet.co.uk/software/0...Feb 26 00:18
schestowitzI'm creating a "TomTom" categoryFeb 26 00:18
Balrog_IE 8 sucksFeb 26 00:18
schestowitzTomTom will receive a lot of attention soonFeb 26 00:19
schestowitzMaybe good advertising (exposure)Feb 26 00:19
Balrog_IE 7 *really* sucksFeb 26 00:19
PetoKrausanywayFeb 26 00:19
PetoKrausthere's nothing about the benchmark they usedFeb 26 00:20
Balrog_sunspiderFeb 26 00:20
PetoKrausoh i cFeb 26 00:20
PetoKrausso it's only JSFeb 26 00:20
Balrog_see the cnet pageFeb 26 00:20
Balrog_yesFeb 26 00:20
PetoKraus:/Feb 26 00:20
Balrog_firefox is getting thereFeb 26 00:20
PetoKrauswellFeb 26 00:20
PetoKrausi want 3.1 :)Feb 26 00:21
PetoKrauspushed outFeb 26 00:21
Balrog_hehFeb 26 00:21
Balrog_I use betasFeb 26 00:21
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/25/m...Feb 26 00:24
schestowitzI've just posted this in USENETFeb 26 00:36
schestowitz"Hehe.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzMicrosoft is promoting litigious people and changing its agenda, just like SCO.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzMicrosoft knows what's coming.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzWindows margins are falling close to $0 (on sub-notebooks first).Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzVista and Vista 7 are a mess that's not even backward compatible.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzOffice has just been delayed (again) and in a down economy people won't pay forFeb 26 00:36
schestowitzit anyway.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzAll the rest of Microsoft's products are usually disasters that would be betterFeb 26 00:36
schestowitzcalled off.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzMark this date in the calendars. Microsoft used to brag about never usingFeb 26 00:36
schestowitzsoftware patents offensively... until now.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzAnd lots of Europeans will be pissed off... enough to give Microsoft the 'SCOFeb 26 00:36
schestowitztreatment'.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzTomTom CEO: ‘We spent more money on patent litigation then R&DFeb 26 00:36
schestowitzhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?...Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzTomTom CEO: ‘The cumbersome patent situation works against everyone who isFeb 26 00:36
schestowitztrying to build business’Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzhttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v...Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzIt took SCO 4 years until Chapter 11. Can Microsoft survive longer? Not if it'sFeb 26 00:36
schestowitzalready in debt.Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzLinux is winning!"Feb 26 00:36
schestowitzFunny thing is, just a few days ago Asay told me that he is the one asking to see that Horacio patent terrorist (Sun terminology)Feb 26 00:41
schestowitzNow the guy is spreadheading attacks on Linux.Feb 26 00:41
Balrog_wait a minuteFeb 26 00:42
schestowitzOKFeb 26 00:43
Balrog_I was wondering about somethingFeb 26 00:43
Balrog_but let me checkFeb 26 00:43
schestowitzI told Asay Horacio was trouble....Feb 26 00:45
Balrog_I was wondering why Safari was playing ogg video in the browserFeb 26 00:47
Balrog_I have the plugin for thatFeb 26 00:47
Balrog_(Xiph)Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_but that't OTFeb 26 00:47
Balrog_that'sFeb 26 00:47
Balrog_*Feb 26 00:47
schestowitzhttp://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2009/02/...  .....Feb 26 00:47
Balrog_what about it?Feb 26 00:48
schestowitzSafari and Ogg? Really?Feb 26 00:48
Balrog_yeah with a pluginFeb 26 00:48
schestowitzI'm surprised Opera doesn't have it yetFeb 26 00:48
Balrog_it's actually a Quicktime plugin thoughFeb 26 00:48
schestowitzOpera was one of the MAIN PUSHERS for itFeb 26 00:48
Balrog_http://www.xiph.org/quicktim...Feb 26 00:48
schestowitzFirefox/Mozilla just a followerFeb 26 00:48
Balrog_hehFeb 26 00:48
schestowitzBut FF3.1 seems like the brailblazer in terms of supportFeb 26 00:48
schestowitzApple shot down OggFeb 26 00:48
schestowitzApple is ANTI Ogg :-)Feb 26 00:49
schestowitzSo expect no Safari supportFeb 26 00:49
schestowitzThey love Qtime and DRMFeb 26 00:49
Balrog_without a pluginFeb 26 00:49
schestowitzThey also have a relationship with MSFeb 26 00:49
schestowitzMS hates OggFeb 26 00:49
Balrog_well they're dropping DRM from itunes .... but quicktime does have a higher quality per Kbps ... or does it?Feb 26 00:49
schestowitzIt wants to poison the Web with patents and WinDRMFeb 26 00:49
Balrog_and WMVFeb 26 00:49
schestowitzYesFeb 26 00:49
schestowitzAnd Moon Lie/Silver LieFeb 26 00:49
Balrog_Apple is using H.264 and MPEG-standards, at leastFeb 26 00:50
Balrog_which is better than WMVFeb 26 00:50
Balrog_though still, Ogg should be more supportedFeb 26 00:50
schestowitzKDE 4.2 on Gentoo < http://home.coming.dk/index.php/2009/02... >Feb 26 00:52
schestowitzhttp://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=1060Feb 26 00:53
schestowitzTurns out they support more than just OggFeb 26 00:53
schestowitzI made a little typo in my comment there.Feb 26 00:53
schestowitzGoogle Vs. Symbian: 'My Linux Is More Open Than Your Linux' < http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/a... >. Nokia/Symbian become a nuisance... more so than Solaris/Sun.Feb 26 00:54
*schestowitz does some links for BNFeb 26 00:58
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Balrog_when will symbian go fully open source?Feb 26 01:18
Balrog_ever?Feb 26 01:18
schestowitz2010 they say, I think.. but watch the licencesFeb 26 01:18
Balrog_heh. Is there any code they don't own that may complicate things?Feb 26 01:18
schestowitz"Open source" is a very broad term these days.. not meaning all 4 freedoms (0-3) are necessarily honouredFeb 26 01:18
schestowitzBalrog: I think so, I belueve soFeb 26 01:19
Balrog_erm.Feb 26 01:19
schestowitzGoogle's open source has similar strings, but it's better than nothingFeb 26 01:19
Balrog_Java had it, but the community worked it outFeb 26 01:19
schestowitzThey also find ways to combining with Tivoizatio, DRM, patents...Feb 26 01:19
Balrog_hehFeb 26 01:20
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Balrog_wait a minuteFeb 26 01:24
Balrog_isn't suing over FAT abuse of monopoly?Feb 26 01:24
Balrog_(everyone uses FAT for removable RW disks)Feb 26 01:25
Balrog_schestowitz: another thing about quicktime is that about the only place you can get DRM'd quicktime media is the itunes storeFeb 26 01:29
schestowitzIn the EU it's abuse, I thinkFeb 26 01:29
schestowitzIt was maybe upheld at the end.Feb 26 01:29
schestowitzBut it's dodgy territory.Feb 26 01:29
Balrog_schestowitz: I heard they dropped the case when itunes music went drm freeFeb 26 01:30
Balrog_this patent < http://www.everypatent.com/comp... > is annoying .... may cause problems with flash-drive interoperability if it's upheld.Feb 26 01:33
schestowitzGroklaw is still busy tracking SCO, but only privatelyFeb 26 01:34
schestowitzNo post yet about TomTomFeb 26 01:34
Balrog_probably doing some researchFeb 26 01:35
schestowitzYes, I reckon..Feb 26 01:35
Balrog_also it just came out a few hours agoFeb 26 01:35
schestowitzBut she's not doing much of GL anymoreFeb 26 01:35
Balrog_and groklaw isn't always the fastest to respondFeb 26 01:35
schestowitzIt'll be covered a lot. I'm not sure we ought to kick this horse much.Feb 26 01:35
schestowitzI have some more urgent patent news from EuropeFeb 26 01:35
Balrog_??Feb 26 01:36
schestowitzI've been mailing to big MS molesFeb 26 01:36
schestowitzFrom ACT, comptia, etc.Feb 26 01:36
Balrog_and ...?Feb 26 01:36
schestowitzI'll post tomorrowFeb 26 01:36
Balrog_oh, and you're absolutely right about the BSAFeb 26 01:37
schestowitzI don't know anyone from there, not by nameFeb 26 01:38
schestowitzThey make a living 'thanks' to Microsoft, i.e. thanks to being pond scuFeb 26 01:38
Balrog_(about their connections to MS)Feb 26 01:39
Balrog_yeahFeb 26 01:39
schestowitzThere are othersFeb 26 01:40
schestowitzBN has a decent list scattered aroundFeb 26 01:40
Balrog_they are notoriousFeb 26 01:41
Balrog_(for trying to find 'piracy')Feb 26 01:42
schestowitzYeah, I've been having arguments about 'piracy' (see comments): http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ostatic/~...Feb 26 01:47
Balrog_"Piracy" is a word that refers to copying and sellingFeb 26 01:49
Balrog_(selling illegal copies)Feb 26 01:50
schestowitzOK, last comment there: There should be no software patents* and patents are not "IP", they are patents. (*few countries got corrupted by shill groups like BSA, ACT and CompTIA to enable these.)Feb 26 01:50
Balrog_like the DVD piracy industry in east asia :pFeb 26 01:50
schestowitzMaybe so... but not originally.Feb 26 01:50
Balrog_Software patents should not be allowed.Feb 26 01:50
Balrog_well, that kind of piracy is bad, in any case.Feb 26 01:51
schestowitzThat's like me saying that BSA is committing molestationFeb 26 01:51
Balrog_heh yeahFeb 26 01:51
schestowitzAnd if it's repeated often enough then the word becomes accestableFeb 26 01:51
schestowitzLike "sneaked"- > "snuck"Feb 26 01:51
schestowitzor "judgement"Feb 26 01:51
schestowitzCall it counterfeiting.Feb 26 01:51
schestowitzOr copyrights infringementFeb 26 01:51
schestowitz"piracy" is a made-up term to daemoniseFeb 26 01:52
schestowitzTo make copying be equated to murferFeb 26 01:52
schestowitz*murderFeb 26 01:52
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Balrog_gotta go.Feb 26 01:52
Balrog_didn't we have printed book 'piracy' anyway?Feb 26 01:52
Balrog_It was actually Daniel Defoe who defined itFeb 26 01:53
Balrog_"For electronic and audio-visual media, unauthorized reproduction and distribution is occasionally referred to as piracy (an early reference was made by Daniel Defoe in 1703 when he said of his novel True-born Englishman : "Its being Printed again and again, by Pyrates"[2])."Feb 26 01:53
Balrog_(wikipedia 'Copyright infringement')Feb 26 01:53
Balrog_:/Feb 26 01:54
twitterYes, it is a pity we don't allow people to share books electronically.Feb 26 01:54
twitterNon commercial sharing can create the world's greatest public library.Feb 26 01:55
twitterThose who fight the creation of that library are criminals.Feb 26 01:55
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schestowitzLibraries used to be about increasing of sharing (resources)Feb 26 01:56
twitterEntertainment "Piracy" is a distraction, meant to cheapen the issue.Feb 26 01:56
schestowitzIn wealth, we all thriveFeb 26 01:56
schestowitzWealth is not just physical/moneyFeb 26 01:56
twitterPublic libraries are all about sharing.Feb 26 01:57
twitterPeople buy books so everyone can read, learn and be entertained.Feb 26 01:57
Balrogbut content producers still need to make a livingFeb 26 01:58
twitterPublishers are turning on libraries now too, their greed is complete and unsparing.Feb 26 01:58
Balrogso it's a trade-offFeb 26 01:58
twitterEveryone needs to make a living.Feb 26 01:58
twitterLet's be specific.  "Content producers" is a demeaning term to authors, musicians and other people who deserve respect.Feb 26 01:58
twitterIt is true that free networks and sharing will harm some commercial authors, but the trade off is worth it.Feb 26 02:00
schestowitzThose who orchestrate this are not artistsFeb 26 02:00
twitterYou have to remember that most commercial authors are not successful anyway.  For each success, there are thousands of commercial failures.Feb 26 02:00
schestowitzThey are typically middlemenFeb 26 02:00
schestowitzThese middlemen have over the years created this tierFeb 26 02:00
schestowitzIt ensured that to be successful, talented people MUST go through themFeb 26 02:01
schestowitzTo pay royaltiesFeb 26 02:01
twitterOf course, the middle men are as responsible for the failure of most artists as they are for the success of the few they promote.Feb 26 02:01
schestowitzThey fix pricesFeb 26 02:01
schestowitzPrice fixing on CDs for exampleFeb 26 02:01
twitterThey exclude in order to fix price.Feb 26 02:01
schestowitzThe artists hardly receive what they deserveFeb 26 02:01
schestowitzSo much of the money you, the customer pays never reaches the artistFeb 26 02:01
twitterTheir power to exclude gives them the power to rob artists as well as the public.Feb 26 02:01
schestowitzPublishing of music and literature no longer needs to rely on their barriersFeb 26 02:01
schestowitzWhich is why s*it like DRM and Web filtering that just shoot legitimate content and tools came aboutFeb 26 02:02
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schestowitzHey, jose Feb 26 02:02
schestowitzHeard the news?Feb 26 02:02
twitterThis power was based on technical limitations, shelf space and limited spectrum, that don't exist anymore.Feb 26 02:02
josewhichFeb 26 02:02
twitterdo tell, jose.Feb 26 02:02
schestowitzTomTom.Feb 26 02:03
joseyesFeb 26 02:03
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tessier_WheeFeb 26 02:03
twitterhiFeb 26 02:03
tessier_http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?si...Feb 26 02:03
tessier_As I bet you have all seenFeb 26 02:03
*mib_nfeyn1 (i=4b99ad95@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-691a32208b29ad51) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 26 02:04
twitterNo, I've been traveling all day.Feb 26 02:04
twitter* lookingFeb 26 02:04
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josei figured everyone had seen that.. that's why I came onFeb 26 02:05
josenow every time someone mentions 1% linux desktop share..Feb 26 02:05
twitterOMG, they are finally on the attack.  Good, they will be destroyed completely.Feb 26 02:05
schestowitzSCOFeb 26 02:06
joseooops, i looked at the wrong tab on my browserFeb 26 02:06
josei was talking about this http://osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linu...Feb 26 02:06
twitterlitigation senility phase, I believe Gates called it.Feb 26 02:06
schestowitzThey think monopoly is a privilegeFeb 26 02:07
josethe product is a hardware product though right?Feb 26 02:07
twitterwell, thanks for passing on the patent attack.  I'm updating http://slashdot.org/~twitter/j...Feb 26 02:07
schestowitzIf they lose because Vista stinks, then they must device monopoly enablersFeb 26 02:07
schestowitzPatents in this caseFeb 26 02:07
schestowitzGranted, BN has covered this for over 2 yearsFeb 26 02:07
schestowitzSo we're equipped with counter ammunition in terms of information.Feb 26 02:07
schestowitzLike those TomTom videos I've just posted to BNFeb 26 02:07
twitterIt's really the beginning of the end for them.Feb 26 02:08
schestowitzI sent it to some reporters tooFeb 26 02:08
schestowitzjose: software tooFeb 26 02:08
jose>>Feb 26 02:08
jose>>we feel that we really have no choice but to pursue legal action to protect our innovations and our partners who license themFeb 26 02:08
schestowitzThey address the s/w partFeb 26 02:08
schestowitzand it they get their way, it's not good for Android and othersFeb 26 02:08
schestowitzThey use similar codeFeb 26 02:08
schestowitzSo Microsoft may hope to do a binge/spree on Linux partsFeb 26 02:08
josethere's bound to be software there somewhere but i expect they would not sue except for a whole productFeb 26 02:09
schestowitzIt didn't work well for SCO. It'll make them look petty and obnoxious.Feb 26 02:09
josei was working today on a layman's argument on how sw patents are unconstitutional (US)Feb 26 02:09
josei thought i might show it to marbux since he told me he was working on something like thatFeb 26 02:09
josereally, bilski might have clinched the deal.Feb 26 02:10
josei can't see the supreme court going backFeb 26 02:10
josebutFeb 26 02:10
josei did not see an unconstitutional argument.. free speech/expression and suchFeb 26 02:10
joseUS lawFeb 26 02:10
joseseeing rms' videoFeb 26 02:11
josehelped me focus on the sw as mathFeb 26 02:11
joseit isn't math per sayFeb 26 02:11
josebut it's, like thought, math, logic, writing, etc...Feb 26 02:12
joseidealFeb 26 02:12
josetotally based on idealFeb 26 02:12
josereal patents (nonsoftware, nonbusiness, etc) are all based on overcoming physical imperfectionsFeb 26 02:12
josewhether a process or a machine patentFeb 26 02:12
josesw, like thought.. or like speech once it's placed in a computer's memory..Feb 26 02:13
joseis ideal and removed 100% from the real worldFeb 26 02:13
joseit only caters to a perfect abstract machineFeb 26 02:13
josethe patent innovation is the computer itself, the transistor logic solution that models boolean algebra quite well (with error correcting), etcFeb 26 02:14
josei'm hoping someone will sue microsoft or arcadia etcFeb 26 02:14
josepre-emptivelyFeb 26 02:14
joseto demolish their entire portfolioFeb 26 02:14
jose(self-defense)Feb 26 02:14
josemsft would take a hit if their precious patent porfolio loses it's sting against swFeb 26 02:15
jose(msft, the stock)Feb 26 02:15
schestowitzHm......Feb 26 02:18
jose..another clue to the ideal bitFeb 26 02:18
schestowitzActually..Feb 26 02:18
joseis the $0 cost to create, copy, distributeFeb 26 02:18
schestowitzI was sent this bizarre stuff from OINFeb 26 02:18
schestowitzAbout BN patentsFeb 26 02:18
schestowitzNo idea why...Feb 26 02:19
schestowitzI didn't replyFeb 26 02:19
joseBN?Feb 26 02:19
schestowitzOffering an interview... but it felt like they are promoting BM patentsFeb 26 02:19
schestowitzWait..Feb 26 02:19
schestowitzThey sent it twice evenFeb 26 02:19
schestowitzAgain today..Feb 26 02:19
joseask for permission to share it (or portions of the email)Feb 26 02:19
josewhat do you mean by BN patents?Feb 26 02:20
schestowitz"CHASE RECEIVES PATENT FOR FRAUD PROTECTION BREAKTHROUGH"Feb 26 02:20
schestowitz"Wilmington, Del. - Feb. 23, 2009 – Building on its commitment to protect consumers, Chase Card Services, the credit card division of JP Morgan Chase & Co. [NYSE: JPM], announced that it recently received a patent from the United States Patent Office for its breakthrough fraud prevention technology, First Watch Intelligence."Feb 26 02:20
schestowitzI can't quote the E-mail's body because it asks not toFeb 26 02:20
joseokFeb 26 02:20
josei understand there is a lot of "intelligence" in swFeb 26 02:21
josebut so is there in math and writing and ...Feb 26 02:21
josecopyright and trade secret are there stillFeb 26 02:21
josewell, trade secret is not there for academic stuff (which is public by definition almost)..Feb 26 02:22
josein a foss world, ibm and others will want patentsFeb 26 02:22
josebut i want lots of things as wellFeb 26 02:22
josei would settle for a compromise if all foss was safeFeb 26 02:22
josedefine foss... not sure .. something close to "free software"Feb 26 02:23
josefor attacking linux.. foss friendly trolls now should attack microsoftFeb 26 02:23
josebtw, sorry to appear to be asleep here.. but getting back to OIN.. will they retaliate.. is this something they would do?Feb 26 02:24
joseschestowitz?Feb 26 02:24
schestowitzI don't knowFeb 26 02:24
schestowitzIt's off topic for them to send I thinkFeb 26 02:24
joseand what was that about "BN patents"?Feb 26 02:24
*schestowitz multitasks with BN linksFeb 26 02:24
schestowitzBN patents??!!?!Feb 26 02:24
joseBN?Feb 26 02:25
joseboycottnovell?Feb 26 02:25
schestowitzThat's like saying "catholic brother"Feb 26 02:25
schestowitz*brothel Feb 26 02:25
schestowitzOr rather the oppositeFeb 26 02:25
schestowitzOh..Feb 26 02:25
schestowitzBMFeb 26 02:25
joseokFeb 26 02:25
schestowitzBusiness MethodsFeb 26 02:25
joseso what's bm?Feb 26 02:25
joseokFeb 26 02:25
josenow i'll go back and rereadFeb 26 02:26
schestowitzI need to read into the TomTom case.Feb 26 02:33
schestowitzIt'll get lots of coverage in the pressFeb 26 02:33
twitterSoftware patents are either math or business methods.Feb 26 02:33
twitterMachine instructions are not an invention, no matter how clever.Feb 26 02:33
twitterThey are particular expressions, properly covered by copyright, or they are math which always a discovery not an invention.Feb 26 02:34
twitterjose, to describe this to a non technical audience you need to describe the purpose and extent of patents in the first place.  That requires explaining what an invention is and why inventions are worth protecting with patents.  The goal is to get people to share their inventions.Feb 26 02:36
schestowitzThey are listening to words like "pirates'Feb 26 02:37
schestowitzThat's not helpfulFeb 26 02:37
twitterMost reasonable lawyers assume that people will go on inventing things regardless of legal protection because inventions are always practical.Feb 26 02:37
twitterIn fact, it's practical to keep most practical inventions to yourself.Feb 26 02:38
josetwitter, patent lawyers like views of software patents i think.. well some doFeb 26 02:38
josealong with mathFeb 26 02:38
josei'd draw analogies to lawFeb 26 02:39
josebring it to their level.. even though they are smart, but to drive the point homeFeb 26 02:39
twitterThere's a lot of good literature about US patents, going back to Thomas Jefferson.Feb 26 02:39
joseand yet we have them around today.Feb 26 02:39
josethe lawyer that was featured on groklaw in a series of postings after bilskiFeb 26 02:41
josesaw sw as an implementation of math and not math itselfFeb 26 02:41
josethat's what he said (paraphrased)Feb 26 02:42
schestowitzIP is a term that's being used to confuse. Knowledge is privilege, not ownership. And patents are no copyrights. Different animals altogether.Feb 26 02:45
schestowitzBilski's back to courtFeb 26 02:45
schestowitzThey'll try to appeal, IIRC.Feb 26 02:45
josei take it back, sw is an application of math.. point is that it's based on ideal human created models (like math or language)Feb 26 02:47
josei want to see oin involvedFeb 26 02:49
josemight as well see what happensFeb 26 02:49
joselots of time and money will be saved if we can bury software patents for goodFeb 26 02:50
josethrough more court decisions that would leave little doubt as to the boundariesFeb 26 02:50
joseimagine that.. employees working on implementing the invention instead of writing about it in a patent applicationFeb 26 02:51
joseremember: patents are meant to bring invention secrets public, but since trade secret exists, patents are used when it's actually more beneficial..Feb 26 02:52
josethus the best secrets are kept secretFeb 26 02:52
joseand the stupid inventions are revealed and given 20 year monopoliesFeb 26 02:53
josethe monopoly deal (broad patents) means patent the obvious and then add your secret sauce on top.Feb 26 02:54
joseworst of both worlds for societyFeb 26 02:54
schestowitzOIN thinks like IBMFeb 26 02:55
joseprobablyFeb 26 02:55
josethat's why it will be very interestingFeb 26 02:55
schestowitzI thought about it earlier... IBM can't sue Microsoft for the Linux actionFeb 26 02:55
joseto see if they actFeb 26 02:55
schestowitzIBM cross-licensed with M<SFeb 26 02:55
schestowitzIt's handcuffed with its crappy sw patentsFeb 26 02:55
josei'm curiousFeb 26 02:55
josemaybe oin will become the oin mythFeb 26 02:55
schestowitzOINK.Feb 26 02:56
schestowitzI made a picture of a pig that says itFeb 26 02:56
josemaybe oin will fight weakly so as to sort of lose or draw or not hurt sw patentsFeb 26 02:56
josewould they cross-license with msFeb 26 02:56
josems joins oinFeb 26 02:56
josewell, they want to hurt linux so maybe notFeb 26 02:56
schestowitzI think MS was invited..?Feb 26 02:57
schestowitzI can't recall.Feb 26 02:57
schestowitzMaybe it was something else.Feb 26 02:57
josei just realized somethingFeb 26 02:58
josems saw their hand weakened from bilski no matter whatFeb 26 02:58
joseso they strike many deals and get some money now instead of less laterFeb 26 02:58
josethey create fudFeb 26 02:59
joseand now they attackFeb 26 02:59
josethey might think their assets are weakFeb 26 02:59
josebutFeb 26 02:59
joseibm has lots to loseFeb 26 02:59
joseit's like a cat grabbing on to a stronger dog in a house going up in flamesFeb 26 02:59
josethe cat loses 1 of its nine livesFeb 26 03:00
josebut the dog takes a much bigger hitFeb 26 03:00
jose:-)Feb 26 03:00
jose:-(Feb 26 03:00
joseif ibm and company panic, they reinforce ms' assets/fudFeb 26 03:00
josems salvages and gains against ibm despite the bilski blowFeb 26 03:01
josebtw, (twitter), software being an "implementation" of math is like saying poetry is an implementation of english grammar (not sure if analogy is spot on or off)Feb 26 03:02
joseand to finish the cat/dog analogyFeb 26 03:03
josethe dog might just run away and save the cat along with it while legitimizing the strength and savviness of the catFeb 26 03:03
josei sayFeb 26 03:04
josedog runFeb 26 03:04
josethen eat catFeb 26 03:04
joseeveryone will be happier that wayFeb 26 03:04
schestowitzMaybe it's time to test BilskiFeb 26 03:06
schestowitzI wonder if the suit is related to RambusFeb 26 03:06
schestowitzThe timing I mean..Feb 26 03:06
joseschestowitz, when you asked me about the news, in the back of my mind (because there were several newsworthy events today) was this http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/25...Feb 26 03:06
josehmmFeb 26 03:07
joserambus was hardware and over submarining into a standardFeb 26 03:07
joseanyway, "software" patents can apply to hardwareFeb 26 03:07
josehowever, i think they should notFeb 26 03:07
joseto the extent the patent is simply on the ideal modeling encoded as software, firmware, etc.Feb 26 03:08
joseto attack software patents you have to deal with the "hardware is software" relationshipFeb 26 03:08
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnLZlGu...Feb 26 03:08
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josesome may want to mark the difference as "fixed" vs "soft"Feb 26 03:08
josei think bilski will allow software that controls hw as one unit, but not the sw by itself, say if run on a sw simulator or if borrowed and used in a completely different machineFeb 26 03:09
joseschestowitz, the write-up on the right side of that youtube vid is interesting.. still watching the vid.Feb 26 03:12
schestowitzYes, it's a good seriesFeb 26 03:14
schestowitzI'm going through lots of episidesFeb 26 03:14
joserupert is mentionedFeb 26 03:16
schestowitzYes, him tooFeb 26 03:19
schestowitzBut there are better parts in this series.Feb 26 03:19
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkY...Feb 26 03:20
josewhy?Feb 26 03:20
josei don't have time now.. i'll leave soon. i liked part 8.. i'll see this last one you mentioned.. but that's it!!!Feb 26 03:21
josethe wolf in the car was funnyFeb 26 03:22
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schestowitzWhich wolf?Feb 26 03:28
schestowitzI mostly listen to these videos.Feb 26 03:28
josethe 40 second markFeb 26 03:29
joseonwardFeb 26 03:29
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joseoh, the first link was part 2 not part 8Feb 26 03:31
joseschestowitz, the uk "180" flip..Feb 26 03:35
josei worried they were might adopt "foss" related to microsoftFeb 26 03:36
joseit's also possible there was a fight or they got a sweet offer (saw the light) by foss advocates/companiesFeb 26 03:36
zer0c00lreally UK is going to support foss?Feb 26 03:40
zer0c00li read it somewhereFeb 26 03:40
zer0c00lschestowitz: you are in UK right?Feb 26 03:41
josehttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/0...Feb 26 03:42
schestowitzjose: possibleFeb 26 03:42
schestowitzThat's why Microsoft assimiliatedFeb 26 03:42
schestowitzTo confuse, the remove distinguishing factorFeb 26 03:42
schestowitzMicrosoft is a nasty PR firmFeb 26 03:42
joseit's too early to get too excitedFeb 26 03:42
zer0c00ldamnFeb 26 03:44
zer0c00lsonicwall blocks boycottnovellFeb 26 03:45
zer0c00lshitFeb 26 03:45
zer0c00li dont know whether the admin has did itFeb 26 03:45
zer0c00lor the sonicwall has did itFeb 26 03:45
zer0c00lany way if its the admin...for godsake i am gonna screw himFeb 26 03:46
zer0c00lwhy the admins are damn badFeb 26 03:47
zer0c00li dont knowFeb 26 03:47
zer0c00li am not watchin p0rn in boycottnovellFeb 26 03:48
zer0c00lschestowitz: you cannot do anything about it huh?Feb 26 03:49
zer0c00llol it says Forbidden Category "Games"Feb 26 03:50
zer0c00lit blocks boycottnovell in category GAMESFeb 26 03:51
schestowitzI don't thinkFeb 26 03:52
schestowitzDo you have a Web proxy?Feb 26 03:52
josethat story quotes a ton of articles:Feb 26 03:52
josehttp://www.cio.gov.uk/transf...Feb 26 03:52
jose>> Open Source has been one of the most significant cultural developments in IT and beyond over the last two decades: it has shown that individuals, working together over the Internet, can create products that rival and sometimes beat those of giant corporations; it has shown how giant corporations themselves, and Governments, can become more innovative, more agile and more cost-effective by building on the fruits of community work; and from its IT base tFeb 26 03:53
josehe Open Source movement has given leadership to new thinking about intellectual property rights and the availability of information for re–use by others.Feb 26 03:53
schestowitzBN is about Microsoft gaming the world and Novell too.Feb 26 03:53
josehttp://opensource.org/node/396Feb 26 03:53
jose>> As billions of bail-out dollars become trillions, it is clear that we need to be realistic about the nature and the solutions to our world-wide software crisis. Today the world spends more than $3T USD per year on systems that are largely based on vendor lock-in, not value and not free and fair competition. What is most shocking about the $3T USD number is not its sheer size alone, but the fact that fully $1T USD of that number is written off ever yearFeb 26 03:53
jose when people are forced to abandon their projects before putting them into production. The place to fix that problem is not in any specific piece of software (most of which has 20-30 defects per 1000 source lines of code), but in the fundamental system of competition that is responsible for ensuring that malignant software can be successfully removed in the first place. The UK Government’s decision is a strong step in the direction of properly restoringFeb 26 03:53
jose the right kind of competition in the marketplace. The days of rewarding past performance, especially the performance of amassing billions of dollars based on strategic lock-in, must be put behind us. And we should treat any use of such funds for furthering vendor lock-in as extremely suspect and worthy of an immediate and full investigation.Feb 26 03:53
joseETc etcFeb 26 03:53
zer0c00lschestowitz: check your mailFeb 26 03:54
jose"Open Source, Open Standards and Re–Use: Government Action Plan"Feb 26 03:54
zer0c00lschestowitz: i have webproxyFeb 26 03:54
zer0c00li will use itFeb 26 03:54
jose"Shared Source, OOXML, and reuse Windows: Government Buyout Plan"Feb 26 03:55
schestowitzzer0c00l: OKFeb 26 04:01
zer0c00lschestowitz: does BN has secure connection enabledFeb 26 04:02
zer0c00l?Feb 26 04:02
zer0c00lby default we can bypass most of the firewalls with https connectionFeb 26 04:02
zer0c00lhttps://www.boycottnovell.com/ it shows your webfoldersFeb 26 04:03
zer0c00lnot pagesFeb 26 04:03
zer0c00lcan you switch it onFeb 26 04:03
schestowitzI don't think it would be secureFeb 26 04:07
zer0c00li mean it could bypass firewallsFeb 26 04:07
schestowitzI can give you my Web proxyFeb 26 04:07
zer0c00lthats why askedFeb 26 04:07
zer0c00lmost firewalls leave https connection untouchedFeb 26 04:07
zer0c00lokFeb 26 04:08
zer0c00lpleaseFeb 26 04:08
josea related situation (not issue here since there is nothing "important" being passed around) is http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/attack_...Feb 26 04:11
schestowitzzer0c00l: check mailFeb 26 04:11
josethat ssl exploit ..if i read correctly.. just has https urls rewritten by a proxy (eg, if your network was compromised) to http urls..Feb 26 04:13
josethen when you ask for them..Feb 26 04:13
zer0c00laah...the word proxy is blocked hereFeb 26 04:13
zer0c00l:(Feb 26 04:13
josethe proxy knows you really want https and gets it..Feb 26 04:13
zer0c00lany way i am using https://www.ctunnel.com/Feb 26 04:14
josebut your browser's defensive warning system won't kick in and you can have man-in-middle attack if you ignore broken certificates, etcFeb 26 04:14
josei don't know how a browser would handle an https hand-shake arising from a website you called via httpFeb 26 04:15
josein any case it seems broswers can be patched to fix this and continue to warn users normallyFeb 26 04:15
joseit's not a vulnerability as it is to exploit our bad habits or ignoring certificates and such.. i thinkFeb 26 04:16
joseit's not a vulnerability as much as it is to exploit our bad habits or ignoring certificates and such.. i thinkFeb 26 04:16
josewhatever.. i'm tired.Feb 26 04:17
josegoing to bedFeb 26 04:17
schestowitzSame here.Feb 26 04:18
zer0c00lgood nightFeb 26 04:18
*zer0c00l downloads sslstripFeb 26 04:20
josedon't do it zer0c00l .. nooooooooFeb 26 04:23
jose:-)Feb 26 04:23
zer0c00ljose: just for funFeb 26 04:23
zer0c00ljose: i wont catch misuseFeb 26 04:24
zer0c00l:)Feb 26 04:24
zer0c00l*i wont misuseFeb 26 04:24
zer0c00lLOLFeb 26 04:24
josei wonder which browsers have this problem..Feb 26 04:25
joseas it seems to be a browser misimplementationFeb 26 04:25
zer0c00lhttp://www.thoughtcrime.org/software/sslstrip/Feb 26 04:25
josegnFeb 26 04:32
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*zer0c00l says room sleepsFeb 26 05:15
zer0c00lbyeFeb 26 05:15
zer0c00lgnFeb 26 05:15
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vida18Microsoft sues TomTom over Linux and other patent claims.Feb 26 07:02
vida18http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microso...Feb 26 07:02
myRicky_cn?Feb 26 07:02
vida18I was surprised when I learned this news.Feb 26 07:04
vida18I was surprised when I learnt this news.Feb 26 07:08
myRicky_cnhahaFeb 26 07:08
vida18What time is it in USA ? I am in France.Feb 26 07:09
myRicky_cni am in BeijingFeb 26 07:10
myRicky_cnheheFeb 26 07:10
myRicky_cnit is 3:17Feb 26 07:10
vida18In France, it's 8: 17Feb 26 07:10
myRicky_cn15:18Feb 26 07:11
myRicky_cnPMFeb 26 07:11
myRicky_cnand uFeb 26 07:11
vida188:18 a.mFeb 26 07:12
myRicky_cnoh my godFeb 26 07:14
vida18?Feb 26 07:16
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myRicky_cnÓÐÕÐÆ€¸€µÃƒâ€žÃƒÆ’€»€£€¿€£€¿Feb 26 07:18
kentmait really is very much time to put a stop to software patents.  Interestingly, as TomTom is a European company, Netherlands based, one wonders just where MS are taking their case to?Feb 26 08:02
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oiaohmhttp://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_s...  let the games begin.Feb 26 08:15
kentmaMicrosoft must be in terrible trouble to start this game, particularly in a recession.  One wonders just how the EU will respond to an attack on a major employer in this way by a monopolist?Feb 26 08:42
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MinceRr4wrFeb 26 09:32
MinceRm$ products need to be banned in the EUFeb 26 09:33
zoobab01you need patents for thatFeb 26 09:44
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NarbeHMicrosoft sucks ...Feb 26 09:56
oiaohm_Microsoft is seaming to get a death wish.Feb 26 09:56
NarbeHi am one of the persons that hates Micro$oft ..... :-sFeb 26 09:57
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schestowitzLike SCO, they don't kniow what else to doFeb 26 10:04
schestowitzThey approach debt/already in it and the economy makes it worse for themFeb 26 10:04
schestowitzBut they are suing many people who are also Microsoft customers indirectly, using intellectual monopolies that are highly notorious, esp. in the EU.Feb 26 10:05
oiaohm_World is over for MS.Feb 26 10:08
oiaohm_Funny the attack on Linux at tom tom does not contain the 200+ they claim are on the Linux kernel.Feb 26 10:08
schestowitzExactly. That too.Feb 26 10:09
schestowitzTomTom uses X tooFeb 26 10:09
oiaohm_The time to put up or shut up has caught up with MS.Feb 26 10:09
schestowitzSupposedly about 50 patents there, said MSFeb 26 10:10
schestowitzI think it's good news if you want it to beFeb 26 10:10
schestowitzThis confirms that Microsoft realises it can't compete without sabotaging others.Feb 26 10:10
schestowitzIt's good for TomTom too. It gets publicity and sympathy.Feb 26 10:11
oiaohm_Now it could get bad for MS as well.Feb 26 10:12
oiaohm_Particularly if the fat patents get broken.Feb 26 10:12
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06drBN8nlWg&NR=1 BlueGene? :-)Feb 26 10:13
schestowitzoiaohm_: I think they try to scape those considering Android and other such consortia (OHA)Feb 26 10:13
schestowitzOIN is supposed to hop in now and defend Linux by counter-suing.Feb 26 10:14
schestowitzThough I doubt it would. OIN is spineless.Feb 26 10:14
schestowitzAnd then there's Microsoft troll, Nathan Myhrvold. He's like 'their' OIN.Feb 26 10:15
oiaohm_Big thing the is there are lot more effected parties.Feb 26 10:17
oiaohm_MS could have just open a pandoras box.Feb 26 10:18
schestowitzFirst offensive lawsuit.. not just vs LinuxFeb 26 10:19
schestowitzThey did inititiate a suit before, but no s/wFeb 26 10:19
schestowitzThey used it against a mouse makerFeb 26 10:19
oiaohm_SCO case went south when more interested parites came out the wood work that SCO knew what to do with.Feb 26 10:21
zoobab01does someone has the court complain?Feb 26 10:21
zoobab01http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_sues...Feb 26 10:23
zoobab01they are linked hereFeb 26 10:24
zoobab01they use forum shopping syaing that people in the Western District of Washington can buy their products onlineFeb 26 10:26
oiaohm_The problem with what MS has done if anyone now finds priorart to the patent they can demard the patent status case is held before MS can proced.Feb 26 10:27
oiaohm_That can stall a patent case for many years.Feb 26 10:27
schestowitzBig news from FinlandFeb 26 10:27
schestowitzhttp://www.tietokone.fi/uutta/...Feb 26 10:27
zoobab01Common Name Space for Long and Short FilenamesFeb 26 10:28
zoobab01prior art is futileFeb 26 10:28
schestowitzSomeone Finnish sent me this.. "Your Finnish is nearly as good as mine, :P  so nothing is lost by forwarding these directly http://www.jhs-suositukset.fi//web/guest/j...Feb 26 10:28
zoobab01argue for subject matter and go to the Supreme CourtFeb 26 10:28
schestowitz"They have the potential to be very interesting and I am trying to get at least a summary in English or Swedish so I can use it. However, if they are trying to delay interference from MSFTers it will be months before there is an unofficial translation to English or an official translation to Swedish."Feb 26 10:29
schestowitz"Microsoft is the next SCO Group," said GroklawFeb 26 10:31
zoobab01"Microsoft respects and appreciates the important role that open-source software plays in our industry and we respect and appreciate the passion and the great contribution that open-source developers make in our industry," Gutierrez said. He said that respect and appreciation is "not inconsistent with our respect for intellectual-property rights."Feb 26 10:32
schestowitzThat mug Gavin Clarke is already at it.Feb 26 10:33
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/200...Feb 26 10:33


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