Bonum Certa Men Certa

Combatting Revisionist History (Post From 2015, Years Before IBM Bought Red Hat and Increased Vendor Lock-in)

A day ago (Debian Developer from Japan):

Debian Developer from Japan on systemd

Keanu Approves/Disapproves IBM: They tell us they combat racism; But more people find out it's a PR stunt
Smokescreen that serves to distract from the very racist nature of IBM and its founder



Summary: Today we republish this forum post from more than 6 years ago; in light of what IBM did to CentOS and its vicious attack on the founder of the GNU/Linux operating system we must understand the systemd agenda, which the FSF can more openly speak about now that there are no financial strings

I'm something of a historian, I can't help but be troubled by the revisionist history I see unfolding in the aftermath of the recent controversy over systemd. So, from the “you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts” department, as a kind of parting gift to this community, I'd like to do what I can to marshal what I perceive to be the pertinent facts into a single bucket.

Disclaimer: For the benefit of those who may stumble on this post without any knowledge of my feelings on the matter, it's safe to call me the original systemd hater. In fact, it was my own headlong flight from systemd that originally led me to Debian in the first place. (And depending on your POV, that may constitute Yet Another Reason to hate systemd.) I make no claim nor pretense to "balance" or "fairness" regarding systemd any more than I would for, say, arsenic poisoning. My aim is to challenge and hopefully dispel certain memes that I see emerging from the systemd aftermath.

With that out of the way...

Systemd is not an init system
If someone characterizes systemd as an “init system,” you may safely assume that s/he is either utterly clueless or deliberately obfuscating the discussion. Calling systemd an init system is like calling an automobile a cup holder. Not even Lennart Poettering pretends that systemd is anything but the “Core OS” (sic).

What systemd is is an effort to re-create large portions of existing userspace (including login, job scheduling, and networking, just to name a few) inside a single process traditionally reserved for the sole purpose of starting *nix userspace. (Just in case it isn't clear, there is a huge difference between starting userspace (init) and being userspace (systemd).)

At the end of the day, how one perceives this re-creation of existing userspace strongly influences one's reaction to systemd. There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to be troubled by this re-invention of the wheel; they range from the philosophical and aesthetic, to the technical and mechanical, even the purely political and brutally practical.

And that's part of the problem when folks start to “debate” systemd. Very few folks have the chops to think about, much less talk about all of these areas simultaneously. As a result, the discussion becomes fractured and disjointed, in what is literally the textbook definition of bikeshedding. Suddenly, a talking head who's never written a line of code in his/her life offers up an authoritative-sounding-but-utterly-bogus opinion on systemd's maintainability. Add in the fact that folks on both sides (including Poettering himself) act as if name-calling is a perfectly good substitute for empirical evidence, and the “debate” becomes indistinguishable from white noise.

Speaking of noise...


There was never a systemd debate
Debian came late to the systemd party. Systemd has been controversial since its inception in 2010. During the intervening four years, people have fled and even forked distros over systemd. By the time Debian's GR rolled around, anyone and everyone who was going to have a strong opinion about systemd already had it. Nobody was going to change their minds, thus there was no true “debate.”

We humans love to imagine that we are rational creatures, driven by logic and reason, capable of making reasoned, optimal decisions. Which is great except what we really are is short-sighted, pig-headed, and stupid. Psychology has a boatload of experiments that demonstrate that once you get to the choose-up-sides stage, then argument becomes dramatically less effective. (Google “confirmation bias” and “backfire effect” to learn more.)


The GR was not a mandate for systemd
I have no idea where systemd fanbois get the idea that a victory lap is appropriate.

The results of the GR vote were diluted and obfuscated by two non-resolution outcomes. Of the three technologically-relevant resolutions to the GR, one was unequivocally pro-systemd, the other two were contra-systemd, differing primarily in phrasing (essentially the difference between “must not” and “should not”).

(Aside: I confess to being a “must not” guy at heart, but I grudgingly admit that those who suggest that an absolute prohibition might prove unnecessarily inflexible or self-limiting might have a valid point. Maybe. But I don't have to like doing it.)

But here's the thing, and there is just no getting around it. Once you eliminate the ass-covering "no GR required" amendment, “systemd is a bad idea, the only real question is how bad” didn't place third.

It placed first. By a substantial margin.

Conversely, “systemd is a good idea” didn't place first.

It placed last.

If this surprises you, even a little, then by all means, go look it up. And for the love of whatever you hold Sacred, refrain from uttering a single word of GR-related drivel until you do.

(Edit: My exhortation above to refrain from drivel absent sufficient research was predictably futile. So, for the benefit of those who are unable or unwilling to do the math themselves, a pre-digested version of the analysis can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=576562#p576502)


Speaking of the GR...


The GR was too necessary
As noted above, the only reason “systemd is a bad idea” wasn't the outcome of the GR vote is because of the “political cover” amendment that allowed “This conversation is superfluous” to pretend to be the correct answer (which it absolutely isn't).

In a dichotomous, up-or-down, yes-or-no vote (aka Option1 -vs- Option3), the Debian dev community is split 60/40 (or 40/60, depending on one's POV) on the issue of systemd. When a large plurality of your engineering team tells you that you're doing something fundamentally wrong, dismissing their concerns with “we don't need no steenkin' conversation” bespeaks a complacency bordering on negligence, all the moreso when when your actions have very, very large consequences. (Google “Challenger disaster” for more information.)

Which leads me to...


Debian isn't other distros
Every time I see someone spout some variation of the bandwagon fallacy, or refer to Arch as a “major” distro, I have an urge to do harm.

News flash: There is exactly one Debian, and nothing--nothing--compares to it.

NASA doesn't run Arch. Amazon and Google don't rely on Mageia.

In terms of sheer impact on both the larger LinuxSphere and the global economy, there are exactly two “major” distros: Debian and RedHat. (SUSE is a very distant third, and everything else is just noise.)

A change in Debian affects mission-critical and life-critical software across the globe, touches literally tens of thousands of organizations, and ripples through a hundred derivatives and spinoffs.

So no, it doesn't matter, not even a little, whether your desktop machine boots a few seconds faster or “seems to work ok” under systemd. The cost of downtime on a hobbyist machine is all-but-unmeasurable, whereas the cost of downtime on a scientific supercomputer is somewhere between large and catastrophic.

Speaking of costs...


Change costs, and big change costs big
There's a reason why sysadmins in large organizations are routinely among systemd's biggest detractors.

Downtime is expensive in terms of both time and money. So is re-training. So is rewriting gigabytes of artificially-obsoleted documentation. Add them all up, factor in the associated opportunity costs, multiply by a planet's worth of installs, and before you know it, the cost to the global economy associated with systemd deployment reaches into the billions (or thousands of millions, if you prefer) of dollars/euros.

And for what exactly?

Even if systemd were a demonstrably superior technology (which it isn't), adequately spec'ed (which it isn't) elegantly designed (which it isn't), well-coded (which it isn't), properly documented (which it isn't),or developed by a responsive and responsible community with a history of delivering robust and reliable software (*cough*pulseaudio*cough*), systemd would still be at best problematic, for one simple reason: it's insanely expensive to implement, particularly given the fact that it doesn't solve any actual problem.

Insofar as I'm aware, no one has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that addresses its implementation costs, or comes remotely close to calculating a payback period. More to the point, no one has successfully articulated any value proposition for systemd that goes beyond “it's better” or “it's more modern.”

Global warming, antibiotic resistant bacteria, oilspills, and nuclear accidents are all “modern,” but that doesn't make them good. And “better” is a meaningless term until and unless one specifies a metric or quantitative criteria that can be used to measure “better” in a systematic and reliable way. Otherwise, “new and improved!” is just marketing hype.

At the end of the day, the crux of the systemd question comes down to a matter of how much Unix one wants in one's Linux. Casual users and hobbyists probably won't care. Professionals will care deeply and passionately.

Recent Techrights' Posts

IBM's CEO Makes No Sense
"IBM CEO Aravind Krishna on what’s really driving tech layoffs"
Of Course GNU/Linux Has Reached All-Time High in Africa in 2026
Africa will, on average, gravitate towards Free software or whatever costs less
IBM Buys, Then Disposes/Sacks, the Staff (That It Paid For)
Any money gained is spent buying some more companies to add/join up their revenue, even if the debt surges and there's little integration going on (misfits absorbed)
Time for Microsoft to Rebrand to Fit the Vapourware (Ponzi Scheme)
something between Meta and Alphabet
The Real GNU Anniversary (Not Manifesto or Announcement) is Today
the development, not the manifesto
GNU/Linux Usage Said to Have Doubled in Oceania
it's hard to discount or dismiss Oceania as a bunch of "coconut islands"
No, Writing Isn't in Decline, Some of the Large and Centralised Platforms Are
Slop isn't really competition, just a passing fad and pure noise
 
Rumours: Microsoft to Lay Off 12,500-25,000 Workers Soon (Tentatively Wednesday, 15 Days From Now)
"Layoffs are coming third full week of Jan. Likely 21st but these things can move around a bit based on last minute developments."
EPO People Power - Part XXVI - European Media Has Become Part of the Problem
it is as clear as daylight that Cocainegate is real
IBM 2026 "Organizational Change/s" Means Layoffs Resume Soon, Some Claim "Forever Layoffs."
It's about "narrative control"
Microsoft Layoffs in January 2026
Get ready
Google Still Boosting Slopfarms
Slopfarms will probably all perish as soon as Google News quits sending them visitors
Links 06/01/2026: Cryptocurrency Scam Emails and Greenland's Fear of Getting 'Venezuelad'
Links for the day
Links 06/01/2026: DIY Projects and Inertial Music
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, January 05, 2026
IRC logs for Monday, January 05, 2026
To The Register MS, ARM Means Microsoft Windows (Follow the Money)
the Free software community can campaign and run sites (like the one below), but it cannot afford to bribe so-called 'news' sites like Microsoft and its OEMs do
Links 05/01/2026: Tensions in Korea, Ukrainians See "Double Standard" in a US Russia-Style Invasion
Links for the day
Gemini Links 05/01/2026: Farewell to CBS Reality, Being On-Call, Digital Ad Spendings
Links for the day
Remember That Nobel Prizes Are All Named After the Inventor of Explosives (Even a "Nobel Prize for Peace")
These rewards are only as valuable as the reputation they earn for themselves
Baidu and Yandex Have Overtaken Microsoft in Asia
how about all the Bing layoffs?
Googlebombing for Bill Epsteingate
Maybe the slopfarms too can help him cover up
From GNU/Linux Boosting to Slop-Boosting Career
It is sad to see someone who devoted many years of his life producing GNU/Linux stories stooping down to this "AI" boot-licking
Links 05/01/2026: Slop Ruining Children's Minds, "Complicity of the Press in US Violence"
Links for the day
Microsoft's Windows Falls Below 20% in the UK
After a lot of years of advocacy and hard work
There's No Such Thing as "AI Godfather", Stop Repeating This Pure Nonsense!
Infantile or corruptible media that plays along with slop or uses slop will perish
Gemini Links 05/01/2026: "Poverty and Hunger", "Entrepreneurial Family", "Abandoning Obsidian for Logseq"
Links for the day
Links 05/01/2026: A Shrinking Canadian Economy, Brigitte Bardot's Environmentalism Recalled, Unredacted Epstein Files
Links for the day
Microsoft Allegedly Uses Performance Improvement Plans (PIPs) to Hide the Massive Scale of Company-Wide Layoffs
Just like IBM; they meanwhile talk a bunch of nonsense about "AI" to distract from their commercial calamity
Battles Are Won in the Court of Public Opinion
Many "systems" rely on the mere perception or appearance of legitimacy
GNU/Linux Share in Mongolia More Than Doubles
they probably lack any genuine excitement for "hey hi PCs"
Whistleblowing is About Understanding Boundaries and Risks
The bottom line is, people typically find out the truth at the end
EPO People Power - Part XXV - While EPO Managers Snort Cocaine the Staff Compiles 'Insurance Files' to Expose EPO Corruption
In this increasingly authoritarian world we need more whistleblowers
"The European Patent Reform" That Represents a Gross Violation of Laws, Constitutions, and Conventions (in Order to Make the Rich Even Richer, Mostly Outside Europe)
How far and how long will EPO corruption go?
The Reputation Issue Is Not Our Fault
Trying to squash words (and people) merely diverts more attention to them
GNU/Linux Distribution "Ultimate Edition" Fixes Its Web Site (Apparently Compromised Months Ago)
they dealt with the issue before media shame and a catastrophe of trust
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, January 04, 2026
IRC logs for Sunday, January 04, 2026
Gemini Links 04/01/2026: 64-bit Addressing and 39th Chaos Communication Congress
Links for the day
Windows Was Always the Punchline
What did we count to calculate taxes?
GNU/Linux Surges to About 4% in Peru This Year
one of the poorest counties in America
This Year Our Adoption of IRC Turns 18
We have used IRC for this site since 2008
The Doors Are Closing, Windows Closing Too
Microsoft wants more vendor lock-in, but at risk that this desire will simply alienate and drive away many users
The FSF's Program Manager, Dr. Miriam Sabrina Bastian, Left in October to Lead Climate School
We are not sure why Miriam Bastian decided to leave the Free Software Foundation (FSF)
Outline of Slop, LLMs, IBM, and Things to Come
This coming week and weekend will be very productive irrespective of how much "news" gets published by other sites
Links 04/01/2026: War Without Borders, "Large Hadron Collider Being Shut Down"
Links for the day
Links 04/01/2026: US Imperialism in Greenland and Venezuela, "Climate Protesters Face Greater Risk of Crackdown Amid Rising Authoritarianism"
Links for the day
2026 Should be the Year We All Stop Saying "AI" and Call Things What They Really Are
Don't give anyone the satisfaction of this misguided belief there's any intelligence there
Ponzi Schemes Are Useful (to Corrupt CEOs)
Pathetic, corruptible so-called 'media' is bagging bribes to perpetuate the lies about "AI" (slop)
GNU/Linux at All-Time High in Algeria
In 2026 it hit a new all-time high
Online Mobbing (and Worse) Disguised as 'Free Speech'
People who say they believe in "free speech" have been trying hard to silence RMS and squash the FSF
A 'Cancer That Attaches Itself' to Bulgaria?
"Cancer" is what Microsoft called GNU/Linux
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Saturday, January 03, 2026
IRC logs for Saturday, January 03, 2026
Body-Shaming Using Fakes
a lot of the people who casually claim "defamation" are themselves defaming loads of people every day
GNU/Linux "Market Share" in Switzerland More Than Doubled Last Year, Based on statCounter
GNU/Linux continues its considerable growth
EPO People Power - Part XXIV - Today or Tomorrow You Should Write to National Representatives (Delegates) at the EPO in Your Country
Keep up the pressure!
Red Hat and IBM Layoffs, Staff Kept Quiet About it, WARN Act Skirted/WARN Notices Avoided
What a terrible company to be in
XBox Layoffs Imminent, More Appalling Sales Figures Published
Expect many layoffs in the gaming division