To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| _Hicham_ | I didn't know that there is a lot of Ubuntu haters | Mar 18 21:53 |
|---|---|---|
| trmanco | _Hicham_, they had to grab market share somehow | Mar 18 21:53 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: Apple doesn't do HTML | Mar 18 21:53 |
| schestowitz | KDE did (KHTML) | Mar 18 21:53 |
| MinceR | so how did they campaign against ogg theora in html5? | Mar 18 21:53 |
| _Hicham_ | trmanco : but since FF2, the plugin don't work | Mar 18 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Apple does flashy widgets and ihtml | Mar 18 21:53 |
| trmanco | until they finally stabilized with there own technologies | Mar 18 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Oh! and they have patents there inside the W3cc... | Mar 18 21:54 |
| schestowitz | But recent controversy btw | Mar 18 21:54 |
| schestowitz | They poison the standard with landmines | Mar 18 21:54 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : ogg theora is supported natively in FF3.1 | Mar 18 21:54 |
| schestowitz | Like Rambus | Mar 18 21:54 |
| trmanco | _Hicham_, what plugin? | Mar 18 21:54 |
| MinceR | _Hicham_: doesn't make it a w3c standard though | Mar 18 21:54 |
| schestowitz | It should have been that | Mar 18 21:54 |
| schestowitz | Nokalle don't count | Mar 18 21:55 |
| _Hicham_ | trmanco : Mozilla ActiveX plugin | Mar 18 21:55 |
| trmanco | ha that crap | Mar 18 21:55 |
| schestowitz | Poetice justice, in code | Mar 18 21:55 |
| schestowitz | *Poetic | Mar 18 21:55 |
| trmanco | good thing it doesn't work, was it official anyway? | Mar 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | Mozilla detoxicated itself from Windows Snyder | Mar 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | MS employee | Mar 18 21:56 |
| MinceR | except for the "justice" part | Mar 18 21:56 |
| trmanco | code is poetry | Mar 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | No longer will Mozilla people 'praise' Microsoft... e.g. for security | Mar 18 21:56 |
| trmanco | but it really depends on who writes this type of "poetry" | Mar 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | *Window, not Windows (Freudian slip) | Mar 18 21:56 |
| schestowitz | Linus Torvalds: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." | Mar 18 21:57 |
| trmanco | hehe, computer scientist quotes :-P | Mar 18 21:57 |
| schestowitz | Who is Alexander Larsson? http://blogs.gnome.org/alex... | Mar 18 21:58 |
| trmanco | I wonder what it takes to be one | Mar 18 21:58 |
| schestowitz | Linux File Systems: Ext4. Btrfs. Do we understand what we need? < http://blog.hydrasystemsllc.com/2009/03/17... > | Mar 18 21:58 |
| trmanco | this might be the future jaunty background -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incomi... | Mar 18 22:00 |
| MinceR | but what will karmic look like? | Mar 18 22:06 |
| MinceR | they said it won't be brown | Mar 18 22:06 |
| MinceR | (finally) | Mar 18 22:06 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: COLA's been quiet for the past 2 days. I'll post some news | Mar 18 22:07 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: yes, maybe not by default. WHo knows... | Mar 18 22:07 |
| Balrog__ | about the Mozilla ActiveX plugin: | Mar 18 22:08 |
| Balrog__ | << This plug-in is not part of the Mozilla distribution and even if it were it would be disabled by default. It is extremely, hell-freezing-overly, unlikely that Mozilla is ever going to support ActiveX by default. This plug-in is designed for custom, legacy and intranet solutions and nothing else. | Mar 18 22:08 |
| MinceR | they could call the new theme Inhuman ;) | Mar 18 22:08 |
| schestowitz | Brown is part of the Ubuntu identity/brand. Else it's JAG (Just another GNOME) | Mar 18 22:08 |
| MinceR | perhaps it's time to switch ubuntu with kubuntu and rename ubuntu to gubuntu and kubuntu to ubuntu? :> | Mar 18 22:08 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: should call it "OhMan!" | Mar 18 22:09 |
| MinceR | or Superhuman | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | That'd be MS style | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Ultimate | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Supra Ultra.. | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | "Professional" | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Implicitly: Apple is not professiona | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu is not "ultimate" | Mar 18 22:09 |
| MinceR | we know that | Mar 18 22:09 |
| MinceR | neither is m$, though | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | as in "not people-ready" | Mar 18 22:09 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: not true | Mar 18 22:09 |
| MinceR | Ready for the Not-People? | Mar 18 22:10 |
| schestowitz | Windows is very business read... for crackers | Mar 18 22:10 |
| schestowitz | "Letsa get down to bizniz!!" | Mar 18 22:10 |
| MinceR | windows is professional in the way a whore is. | Mar 18 22:10 |
| schestowitz | It's part of the MS ecosystem | Mar 18 22:10 |
| schestowitz | Wait until crackers attack Linux | Mar 18 22:10 |
| schestowitz | To keep Windows hosts out there for pickings | Mar 18 22:10 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft: the Amsterdamn[sic] of OSes | Mar 18 22:11 |
| schestowitz | (not with extra Cr4ack (not the drug" | Mar 18 22:12 |
| schestowitz | ^typos. | Mar 18 22:12 |
| _Hicham_ | I read an anecdote in which they gathered a bunch of talented crackers to do a comparison | Mar 18 22:16 |
| _Hicham_ | how much will a Windows system resist | Mar 18 22:17 |
| MinceR | that's a pretty degrading thing to say of Amsterdam. | Mar 18 22:17 |
| _Hicham_ | and how much a Linux system will | Mar 18 22:17 |
| MinceR | there was an event with windows vs linux vs macos | Mar 18 22:17 |
| _Hicham_ | well, a freshly installed Windows can't resist a second | Mar 18 22:17 |
| MinceR | windows was broken first, macos second, linux never | Mar 18 22:17 |
| _Hicham_ | while Linux (Debian) has taken two month to be broken in | Mar 18 22:18 |
| _Hicham_ | and guess what ? | Mar 18 22:18 |
| _Hicham_ | Windows was equipped with a firewall | Mar 18 22:18 |
| _Hicham_ | while Debian was not | Mar 18 22:18 |
| _Hicham_ | i am looking for that story | Mar 18 22:18 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: Mac first | Mar 18 22:21 |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Mar 18 22:21 | |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu/Mac/Windows security challenge last year | Mar 18 22:22 |
| schestowitz | SAFARI~1.EXE did it | Mar 18 22:22 |
| MinceR | oh. | Mar 18 22:22 |
| schestowitz | on the Mac | Mar 18 22:22 |
| schestowitz | [no EXE.. just joking] | Mar 18 22:22 |
| schestowitz | .Mac | Mar 18 22:22 |
| schestowitz | iSaf | Mar 18 22:22 |
| MinceR | 'look how elite we are, we can rip KHTML off and say it's ours' | Mar 18 22:22 |
| schestowitz | And add GUI | Mar 18 22:23 |
| schestowitz | With HCI stuff | Mar 18 22:23 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@cpc1-broo6-0-0-cust1009.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Mar 18 22:23 | |
| MinceR | oh, yes, forgot the 'add a retarded, unusable gui' part | Mar 18 22:24 |
| schestowitz | I told you apple like foss | Mar 18 22:24 |
| schestowitz | Free code | Mar 18 22:24 |
| schestowitz | Apple likes freedom (of cost) | Mar 18 22:24 |
| schestowitz | There are one-man project that do the same | Mar 18 22:24 |
| schestowitz | slap in some gecko, use gtk/qt/motif/whataveer | Mar 18 22:25 |
| schestowitz | Chrome too | Mar 18 22:25 |
| schestowitz | Uses KHTML | Mar 18 22:25 |
| schestowitz | The ripped off version | Mar 18 22:25 |
| MinceR | yes, they like it in the same way m$ does | Mar 18 22:25 |
| MinceR | and they use it in the same way too | Mar 18 22:25 |
| Balrog__ | well, WebKit is foss ... not so with MS products | Mar 18 22:26 |
| MinceR | osx isn't foss though | Mar 18 22:26 |
| MinceR | and neither is safari | Mar 18 22:26 |
| Balrog__ | no (os x) it isn't and it probably won't be anytime soon. | Mar 18 22:26 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: Apple is open (about it) | Mar 18 22:27 |
| MinceR | screwing around the API of the engine does no contribution make | Mar 18 22:27 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft uses BSD and keeps quiet | Mar 18 22:27 |
| Balrog__ | they are working on a GTK ui for WebKit | Mar 18 22:27 |
| MinceR | apple are? | Mar 18 22:27 |
| Balrog__ | the webkit people | Mar 18 22:27 |
| Balrog__ | not sure if it's apple | Mar 18 22:27 |
| MinceR | so it's probably not apple | Mar 18 22:27 |
| Balrog__ | also, the kernel is foss (if you consider APSL to be foss) | Mar 18 22:27 |
| MinceR | so it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand | Mar 18 22:27 |
| Balrog__ | I'd assume Apple employees are helping | Mar 18 22:28 |
| MinceR | i'd assume apple employees are trying to do more damage, just like they've ever done | Mar 18 22:28 |
| MinceR | steal the code, lock it down, add DRM, sell it for tons of $$$ and be smug about how clever you are | Mar 18 22:28 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: why do you blast Apple so much and not MS or the other more damaging ones? | Mar 18 22:28 |
| _Hicham_ | Apple employees didn't help even KDE developers | Mar 18 22:28 |
| MinceR | Balrog__: oh, i do blast m$ too | Mar 18 22:29 |
| _Hicham_ | the creators of KHTML | Mar 18 22:29 |
| Balrog__ | _Hicham_: that did get set straight after a while | Mar 18 22:29 |
| MinceR | Balrog__: it's just that apple cultists are so blinded by the RDF they don't notice when apple is doing the exact same things m$ is | Mar 18 22:29 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: this whole 'rdf' thing is overblown | Mar 18 22:30 |
| Balrog__ | yes, there are some that are blinded | Mar 18 22:30 |
| MinceR | that's what i'd expect an apple fanboy to say | Mar 18 22:30 |
| Balrog__ | but a large majority (of technical people) aren't | Mar 18 22:30 |
| Balrog__ | go to a rumor site and look at the forums | Mar 18 22:30 |
| Balrog__ | there are _a lot_ of complaints | Mar 18 22:30 |
| MinceR | and yet when they talk to a non-cultist, all we hear is "it just works" and it's so great and we're so stupid because we don't use apple | Mar 18 22:31 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: hackintosh will never 'just work' | Mar 18 22:31 |
| MinceR | and they keep telling me their jesusPhone is the second coming | Mar 18 22:31 |
| MinceR | even if i tell them a couple of fundamental ways it fails | Mar 18 22:32 |
| Balrog__ | who are these people? | Mar 18 22:32 |
| MinceR | apple fanboys | Mar 18 22:32 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: 'fundamental' ways? | Mar 18 22:32 |
| MinceR | they're everywhere | Mar 18 22:32 |
| MinceR | fundamental things one would expect from a smartphone? | Mar 18 22:32 |
| Balrog__ | no keyboard? there are problems with keyboards. | Mar 18 22:32 |
| MinceR | you know, the kind of phone you can get for a quarter of the price of a jesusPhone? | Mar 18 22:32 |
| Balrog__ | multitasking? battery life <<< | Mar 18 22:32 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: I haven't seen a similar phone for $50 | Mar 18 22:33 |
| Balrog__ | USD | Mar 18 22:33 |
| Balrog__ | the G1 is more expensive, and doesn't even have the 8GB flash | Mar 18 22:33 |
| MinceR | that reminds me of a story when apple cut a complete, fully developed feature from a sw they released because jobs thought it would confuse some users | Mar 18 22:33 |
| MinceR | see, that kind of contempt is what makes me really hate apple | Mar 18 22:33 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: how is that 'contempt'? | Mar 18 22:34 |
| MinceR | they practically tell their users "you're idiots and you'll buy any crap from us" | Mar 18 22:34 |
| MinceR | and they do | Mar 18 22:34 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: what about featuritis? I don't think they want that in their products | Mar 18 22:34 |
| MinceR | windows might treat the user like a complete idiot, but it isn't in the same league apple products are in | Mar 18 22:34 |
| Balrog__ | (many Linux apps have it, many many more Windows apps do) | Mar 18 22:34 |
| MinceR | when they don't tell you it's 65536 colors because 'you don't need to know' | Mar 18 22:34 |
| Balrog__ | Isn't 'thousands' good enough? I mean you can go look it up | Mar 18 22:35 |
| MinceR | ah, the myth of the feature set that's just enough | Mar 18 22:35 |
| MinceR | i prefer to be told what it is | Mar 18 22:35 |
| Balrog__ | heard of crappy japanese phones? | Mar 18 22:35 |
| Balrog__ | (with too many features) | Mar 18 22:35 |
| MinceR | there's no such thing as "too many features" | Mar 18 22:35 |
| Balrog__ | yes there is | Mar 18 22:35 |
| MinceR | do you honestly expect to use every single feature of everything you buy? | Mar 18 22:36 |
| Balrog__ | if they don't work properly or are overly complicated, it's too many | Mar 18 22:36 |
| MinceR | do you honestly expect everyone else's needs to match yours exactly? | Mar 18 22:36 |
| Balrog__ | Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented features | Mar 18 22:36 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: not my point | Mar 18 22:36 |
| MinceR | do you honestly expect your own needs to be constant? | Mar 18 22:36 |
| MinceR | apple certainly does | Mar 18 22:36 |
| Balrog__ | <<Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented features | Mar 18 22:36 |
| Balrog__ | not MY needs | Mar 18 22:36 |
| Balrog__ | *working* and I mean working well | Mar 18 22:36 |
| MinceR | so your needs are unimportant? | Mar 18 22:36 |
| Balrog__ | my needs are important, but if the features that are supposed to meet my needs don't work half the time (or are overly complicated) then they're useless | Mar 18 22:37 |
| MinceR | that's an entirely different issue from "too many features" | Mar 18 22:37 |
| MinceR | it's called bad quality | Mar 18 22:37 |
| Balrog__ | one thing Apple is doing is making sure all features have high quality before shipping | Mar 18 22:38 |
| MinceR | one thing apple is failing at, i see | Mar 18 22:38 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: explain how they're failing | Mar 18 22:38 |
| Balrog__ | at making sure /included/ features work well | Mar 18 22:39 |
| MinceR | or do you consider bricking a mac on an os update "high quality"? | Mar 18 22:39 |
| Balrog__ | which update bricked macs? | Mar 18 22:39 |
| Balrog__ | ?? | Mar 18 22:40 |
| MinceR | http://tech.slashdot.org/article... | Mar 18 22:40 |
| MinceR | this one | Mar 18 22:40 |
| Balrog__ | If you're talking about the iphone, the community figured out how to unbrick them | Mar 18 22:40 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: that has happened to me with Windows AND Linux | Mar 18 22:41 |
| MinceR | another feature that works flawlessly: http://go2xserve.com/ | Mar 18 22:41 |
| Balrog__ | so far not with mac | Mar 18 22:41 |
| MinceR | wow, the community figured out, that's great! | Mar 18 22:41 |
| MinceR | is that what passes for "just works" around your people? | Mar 18 22:41 |
| Balrog__ | the community did the jailbreak / unlock in the first place | Mar 18 22:41 |
| MinceR | see, that's the RDF everyone else is talking about | Mar 18 22:41 |
| MinceR | yes, because they had to | Mar 18 22:41 |
| MinceR | because it's a locked down piece of shit | Mar 18 22:42 |
| Balrog__ | therefore they did the unbricking | Mar 18 22:42 |
| MinceR | everything from apple is a locked down piece of shit | Mar 18 22:42 |
| MinceR | and when i mention that, the fanboy says "but you can jailbreak it!" | Mar 18 22:42 |
| Balrog__ | there were some unlocks that did nasty things to the baseband back then | Mar 18 22:42 |
| MinceR | they don't care about warranty | Mar 18 22:42 |
| MinceR | or if it breaks something else | Mar 18 22:42 |
| Balrog__ | so I wouldn't be surprised if updating such an unlocked device would break the baseband | Mar 18 22:42 |
| MinceR | in the mind of the apple fanboy, if it has an apple logo in it, it's perfect and it just works | Mar 18 22:42 |
| schestowitz | Mac have been bricked more than once | Mar 18 22:42 |
| schestowitz | I saw incidents in 2005 | Mar 18 22:42 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: what other than the baseband could be bricked? | Mar 18 22:43 |
| schestowitz | CLI-only on Mac boot | Mar 18 22:43 |
| MinceR | Balrog__: do i care what could be bricked in that overpriced paperweight? | Mar 18 22:43 |
| Balrog__ | schestowitz: there wer some problems with the imac G3 back in 2000 or so | Mar 18 22:43 |
| schestowitz | But "mac rumours" sites won't talk about *that& | Mar 18 22:43 |
| MinceR | if it's bricked, it's bricked. | Mar 18 22:43 |
| Balrog__ | There's rom recovery mode | Mar 18 22:43 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Mar 18 22:43 |
| schestowitz | Recovery CDs | Mar 18 22:43 |
| Balrog__ | aka DFU mode (in ipod/iphone) | Mar 18 22:44 |
| schestowitz | Like global rest in Palm IS | Mar 18 22:44 |
| schestowitz | *OS | Mar 18 22:44 |
| schestowitz | Hard reset | Mar 18 22:44 |
| MinceR | and if you'll follow the link, you'll see that it's about desktop macs, not the jesusPhone. | Mar 18 22:44 |
| Balrog__ | << Device Failsafe Utility | Mar 18 22:44 |
| MinceR | btw i have a palm that bricked itself | Mar 18 22:44 |
| Balrog__ | Yes, resetting the PMU is considered standard procedure for dealing with problems | Mar 18 22:45 |
| Balrog__ | (on the Mac) | Mar 18 22:45 |
| Balrog__ | if it's hardware | Mar 18 22:45 |
| Balrog__ | explain about the Palm. I have one but it's unstable | Mar 18 22:45 |
| Balrog__ | many times more unstable than an iphone/ipod touch | Mar 18 22:45 |
| MinceR | one month after the warranty expired it decided it won't boot anymore | Mar 18 22:45 |
| MinceR | it's frozen at the boot screen, flashing a bar at the top of the screen | Mar 18 22:45 |
| MinceR | hard reset doesn't help | Mar 18 22:45 |
| Balrog__ | :( | Mar 18 22:46 |
| MinceR | oh, and it took my data with itself, of course | Mar 18 22:46 |
| Balrog__ | that's nasty. | Mar 18 22:46 |
| Balrog__ | About the iphone .... even if it's bricked, only the cell / wifi stuff stops working. The rest is still ok | Mar 18 22:47 |
| Balrog__ | Basically the baseband is wrecked. | Mar 18 22:47 |
| Balrog__ | (this is only the 1st-gen) | Mar 18 22:47 |
| MinceR | does it boot that way? | Mar 18 22:47 |
| Balrog__ | No, it boots the main CPU. | Mar 18 22:47 |
| Balrog__ | The CPU talks to the baseband using AT commands | Mar 18 22:48 |
| MinceR | and the os is ok with the baseband not responding? | Mar 18 22:48 |
| Balrog__ | (think modems) | Mar 18 22:48 |
| Balrog__ | yes. | Mar 18 22:48 |
| MinceR | btw the main cpu part could be bricked too if the memory it boots from can be altered | Mar 18 22:48 |
| Balrog__ | but at the lowest level, it boots from *ROM* | Mar 18 22:48 |
| Balrog__ | and in that ROM, there's recovery mode | Mar 18 22:48 |
| Balrog__ | that's why Apple couldn't patch the jailbreak | Mar 18 22:49 |
| MinceR | and where does it take the data to recover? | Mar 18 22:49 |
| Balrog__ | via USB | Mar 18 22:49 |
| MinceR | ic | Mar 18 22:49 |
| Balrog__ | << Unlike the main s5l8900 CPU, the S-Gold can actually be bricked | Mar 18 22:50 |
| Balrog__ | http://wikee.iphwn.org/sgold_bootrom:brick | Mar 18 22:50 |
| Balrog__ | remember this is the *baseband* | Mar 18 22:50 |
| Balrog__ | (which controls all radio comm) | Mar 18 22:50 |
| MinceR | so you'd end up with a lame pda | Mar 18 22:50 |
| Balrog__ | when bricked, "Your cellphone and Edge and WiFi can be lost forever." | Mar 18 22:51 |
| MinceR | instead of the lame phone you begin with | Mar 18 22:51 |
| MinceR | very comforting | Mar 18 22:51 |
| Balrog__ | yes, a lame PDA, without wifi or bluetooth | Mar 18 22:51 |
| MinceR | remember, this is a danger you take just to be able to install apps you want | Mar 18 22:51 |
| MinceR | "just works" indeed. | Mar 18 22:51 |
| Balrog__ | now the 3G is very different....its baseband uses many levels of sigchecking and verification | Mar 18 22:51 |
| Balrog__ | the unlock for it is temporary ... it runs as a daemon that gets loaded each time the device is booted | Mar 18 22:52 |
| MinceR | just the thing i'm dreaming of running on a mobile device | Mar 18 22:52 |
| MinceR | it doesn't drain the battery does it? :> | Mar 18 22:52 |
| Balrog__ | no, because once it runs it doesn't have to keep running | Mar 18 22:53 |
| MinceR | doesn't sound like a daemon to me | Mar 18 22:53 |
| Balrog__ | once the BB is running 'unlocked' code, you're ok | Mar 18 22:53 |
| MinceR | though somehow my qtek 9100 uses advanced technology that makes such things unnecessary | Mar 18 22:53 |
| Balrog__ | the daemon part makes sure it runs again if you go into airplane mode and back out | Mar 18 22:53 |
| MinceR | it wasn't locked to any provider when i bought it | Mar 18 22:53 |
| Balrog__ | talk to AT&T or the providers :/ | Mar 18 22:53 |
| MinceR | i wonder when apple will gain access to such wonderful technology! | Mar 18 22:53 |
| Balrog__ | there ARE iphones is Europe and Asia that have unlocked iPhones | Mar 18 22:54 |
| MinceR | no, talk to steve jobs | Mar 18 22:54 |
| Balrog__ | be prepared to pay though | Mar 18 22:54 |
| MinceR | ask him why he's so focused on screwing his own customers | Mar 18 22:54 |
| MinceR | via lockdown and DRM | Mar 18 22:54 |
| MinceR | and ask yourself why you still bend over and smile while you get this treatment | Mar 18 22:54 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: another problem: the radio in the iphone follows worldwide 3G standards. | Mar 18 22:54 |
| Balrog__ | T-Mobile chose not to follow them | Mar 18 22:54 |
| Balrog__ | therefore, iphone + T-mobile in US == no-3G | Mar 18 22:54 |
| MinceR | well, t-mobile (t-* in general) is all shades of crap here too | Mar 18 22:55 |
| Balrog__ | so what choice do you have? T-mobile and ATT | Mar 18 22:55 |
| Balrog__ | (with an unlocked device) | Mar 18 22:56 |
| MinceR | they invented "unlimited internet access that has a limit" here in hungary | Mar 18 22:56 |
| Balrog__ | at least in the US it's like that | Mar 18 22:56 |
| MinceR | here we have t-mobile, pannon (telenor) and vodafone | Mar 18 22:56 |
| MinceR | i'm using pannon | Mar 18 22:56 |
| Balrog__ | source code to iphone 3g unlock: http://xs1.iphwn.org/releases/ye... | Mar 18 22:56 |
| MinceR | i started with vodafone but i got tired of their crap service and didn't want to pay for overpriced gprs | Mar 18 22:56 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: here we also have Verizon and Sprint | Mar 18 22:56 |
| Balrog__ | but those are CDMA services | Mar 18 22:57 |
| Balrog__ | no GSM | Mar 18 22:57 |
| MinceR | and t-mobile was quite obviously overpriced to start with | Mar 18 22:57 |
| Balrog__ | here they're all overpriced | Mar 18 22:57 |
| MinceR | they're probably all overpriced | Mar 18 22:57 |
| MinceR | but t-mobile beats the others at that game here | Mar 18 22:57 |
| PeterFA | Cell phone service... | Mar 18 22:57 |
| PeterFA | Ah, the telecoms. | Mar 18 22:57 |
| PeterFA | If I ever need a bona fide necessary evil, telecom is it. | Mar 18 22:58 |
| MinceR | making a deal with a telco shows just how much apple cares about their customers | Mar 18 22:58 |
| Balrog__ | no, it shows how broken the law in the US is | Mar 18 22:58 |
| Balrog__ | everyone does it in the US | Mar 18 22:58 |
| Balrog__ | not only Apple | Mar 18 22:58 |
| Balrog__ | the RAZR was like that ... with Verizon I beliece | Mar 18 22:59 |
| MinceR | apple did it worldwide | Mar 18 22:59 |
| Balrog__ | s/c/v | Mar 18 22:59 |
| MinceR | iirc until they got slapped on the wrist by authorities in europe | Mar 18 22:59 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: also what about (a) visual voicemail and (b) subsidies? | Mar 18 22:59 |
| MinceR | i don't know what "visual voicemail" is supposed to be | Mar 18 22:59 |
| Balrog__ | in Europe there were various problems | Mar 18 22:59 |
| MinceR | as for subsidies, the telco can keep their damn money, if i'm buying a phone i'm going to own it | Mar 18 22:59 |
| Balrog__ | basically you see a list of your voicemail messages and you can click on one to listen to it | Mar 18 23:00 |
| Balrog__ | Then do you wish to pay $599? | Mar 18 23:00 |
| MinceR | none of the 3 phones i've bought so far were locked to a provider | Mar 18 23:00 |
| MinceR | i pay as much as it costs | Mar 18 23:00 |
| MinceR | if it's subsidized, you still pay the cost | Mar 18 23:00 |
| MinceR | but you also get screwed in the process | Mar 18 23:00 |
| Balrog__ | no, you get locked in for 2 years | Mar 18 23:00 |
| Balrog__ | which may equal screwed, depending on the situation | Mar 18 23:01 |
| MinceR | i don't use voicemail -- if they want to send me a message, there's a perfectly functional SMS for that | Mar 18 23:01 |
| Balrog__ | SMS is a ripoff | Mar 18 23:01 |
| Balrog__ | $1500 per megabyte | Mar 18 23:01 |
| MinceR | voicemail is a ripoff too | Mar 18 23:01 |
| Balrog__ | at least here | Mar 18 23:01 |
| MinceR | i need to pay to listen to it | Mar 18 23:01 |
| Balrog__ | voicemail is regular rates | Mar 18 23:01 |
| MinceR | i can receive text messages free of charge | Mar 18 23:01 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: Not true in the USA. | Mar 18 23:02 |
| trmanco | meh | Mar 18 23:02 |
| MinceR | well, the usa sucks | Mar 18 23:02 |
| trmanco | Tuz? | Mar 18 23:02 |
| trmanco | lol | Mar 18 23:02 |
| Balrog__ | texts are 10-25 cents both ways | Mar 18 23:02 |
| Balrog__ | (each way, actually) | Mar 18 23:02 |
| MinceR | also, voicemail takes more time to use because it's speech | Mar 18 23:03 |
| Balrog__ | true, though with visual voicemail you can delete a message you don't want to listen to | Mar 18 23:03 |
| MinceR | (even if it isn't the horrible wait-fest an answering machine playback is) | Mar 18 23:03 |
| Balrog__ | I prefer texts, but then again, many people have landlines here also | Mar 18 23:03 |
| Balrog__ | which means NO SMS | Mar 18 23:03 |
| Balrog__ | (from a landline) | Mar 18 23:03 |
| MinceR | they could get ISDN, though :> | Mar 18 23:04 |
| Balrog__ | do you know how EXPENSIVE ISDN is???? | Mar 18 23:04 |
| MinceR | i do | Mar 18 23:04 |
| Balrog__ | more than I want to think of paying | Mar 18 23:04 |
| Balrog__ | :[ | Mar 18 23:04 |
| MinceR | (though i wonder how they still justify it) | Mar 18 23:04 |
| MinceR | (not the 30-line version, obviously) | Mar 18 23:05 |
| Balrog__ | even the 1-line version costs too much | Mar 18 23:05 |
| Balrog__ | regular basic phone is $15 per month here | Mar 18 23:05 |
| MinceR | btw you can send text messages from the internet too | Mar 18 23:05 |
| Balrog__ | yes, not everyone has that or knows how to do it | Mar 18 23:05 |
| MinceR | if you use a wap push test page, it can even be free :> | Mar 18 23:05 |
| Balrog__ | via AIM it's free, but doesn't work to my phone | Mar 18 23:06 |
| Balrog__ | via email it works | Mar 18 23:06 |
| MinceR | :) | Mar 18 23:06 |
| Balrog__ | but then again, there are many people who don't have those / don't want to go through the trouble of doing so | Mar 18 23:06 |
| MinceR | well, i don't want to go through the trouble of using voicemail | Mar 18 23:07 |
| MinceR | also, they can wait until i become available -- it rarely takes long :> | Mar 18 23:07 |
| Balrog__ | I prefer not to, but I still get them occasionally | Mar 18 23:07 |
| MinceR | first thing i did was to disable voicemail | Mar 18 23:07 |
| Balrog__ | what about MMS? | Mar 18 23:07 |
| Balrog__ | do you use it? | Mar 18 23:08 |
| MinceR | nope | Mar 18 23:08 |
| Balrog__ | ok. | Mar 18 23:08 |
| MinceR | maybe i've received one in my life | Mar 18 23:08 |
| MinceR | but generally i'd rather use email for that | Mar 18 23:08 |
| Balrog__ | that's another thing that apple left out of the iphone (until 3.0) | Mar 18 23:08 |
| MinceR | i know | Mar 18 23:08 |
| MinceR | it's going to be fun seeing the fanboys drool to see "new" features everyone else has had for decades | Mar 18 23:09 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: I've seen those features from 'everyone else' | Mar 18 23:09 |
| Balrog__ | Apple seems to be better at implementing them | Mar 18 23:09 |
| Balrog__ | we'll see the side-by-side comparisons :) | Mar 18 23:10 |
| Balrog__ | the developers are happy, that's for sure | Mar 18 23:10 |
| MinceR | i doubt they can win at even an arbitrarily vague scenario you're trying to set up | Mar 18 23:10 |
| MinceR | well, the developers whose apps happened to be accepted, that is | Mar 18 23:11 |
| Balrog__ | they say 96% of apps last month were accepted. | Mar 18 23:11 |
| Balrog__ | You heard of the 'fart' apps and all, right? | Mar 18 23:11 |
| MinceR | well, the developers have already learned what they shouldn't even try | Mar 18 23:11 |
| Balrog__ | Also, Apple added allowed API's for a lot of the stuff | Mar 18 23:12 |
| MinceR | i'd care more about the background music player apps and the programming language interpreter apps | Mar 18 23:12 |
| MinceR | guess what, you can't do those | Mar 18 23:12 |
| Balrog__ | like music database access, proximity sensor access, etc | Mar 18 23:12 |
| MinceR | or provide an improved replacement for anything it ships with | Mar 18 23:12 |
| MinceR | or something that happens to bother at&t | Mar 18 23:12 |
| Balrog__ | Background music players would be fine only if they give you a big warning or some other notification saying "app *** may use battery life!!!" | Mar 18 23:13 |
| MinceR | or something that happens to provide an important feature apple managed to left out | Mar 18 23:13 |
| MinceR | (copy/paste anyone?) | Mar 18 23:13 |
| MinceR | i know they use battery life | Mar 18 23:13 |
| MinceR | that's how CMOS works, you know | Mar 18 23:13 |
| MinceR | if a state transition happens, current flows | Mar 18 23:13 |
| Balrog__ | the 'improved replacement' thing was treated interestingly ... at first those were rejected, then they started appearing (like improved mail apps) | Mar 18 23:13 |
| MinceR | if battery life was all i cared about, i wouldn't put the damn thing into a mobile device in the first place | Mar 18 23:14 |
| Balrog__ | copy/paste would require a global temp dir. Apple didn't provide that | Mar 18 23:14 |
| MinceR | yeah, we've heard all the excuses. | Mar 18 23:14 |
| MinceR | the bottom line is that all apple products are seriously lacking in functionality | Mar 18 23:15 |
| MinceR | and the only people who don't realize this are the apple fanboys. | Mar 18 23:15 |
| Balrog__ | Have you tried anything other than hackintosh? | Mar 18 23:15 |
| MinceR | and the apple fanboys will naturally keep denying that they're delusional | Mar 18 23:15 |
| Balrog__ | I tried hackintosh and it was not a good experience at all. | Mar 18 23:15 |
| MinceR | i'm not sure what you mean by hackintosh | Mar 18 23:16 |
| Balrog__ | osx on non-Apple hardware. | Mar 18 23:16 |
| Balrog__ | The drivers are messy | Mar 18 23:16 |
| Balrog__ | so is the kernel | Mar 18 23:16 |
| Balrog__ | you almost never get native support/performance | Mar 18 23:16 |
| MinceR | i didn't expect it to be fast or stable or to have 3d acceleration | Mar 18 23:16 |
| MinceR | i expected the gui to be as usable as the hype says it is | Mar 18 23:16 |
| MinceR | it wasn't | Mar 18 23:16 |
| Balrog__ | if it's slow, it won't be usable | Mar 18 23:16 |
| MinceR | i disregarded slowness because of that | Mar 18 23:17 |
| _Hicham_ | OSX is always hardware dependent | Mar 18 23:17 |
| Balrog__ | if you want mousefocus go somewhere else. It's messy everywhere. | Mar 18 23:17 |
| MinceR | yes, if i want a gui that works the way i want it, i should go somewhere else | Mar 18 23:17 |
| MinceR | that's what i'm doing | Mar 18 23:17 |
| MinceR | and yes, osx is messy everywhere | Mar 18 23:17 |
| MinceR | maybe someday apple will learn that not all users have the exact same needs and preferences | Mar 18 23:18 |
| MinceR | or they'll go bankrupt | Mar 18 23:18 |
| MinceR | and the fanboys won't understand why. | Mar 18 23:18 |
| Balrog__ | MinceR: I find the OS X gui more flexible than windows | Mar 18 23:18 |
| Balrog__ | or for that matter, xfce | Mar 18 23:18 |
| MinceR | i find it less flexible | Mar 18 23:18 |
| Balrog__ | but then again, it's understandable with xfce | Mar 18 23:18 |
| Balrog__ | KDE has all the features but try finding them :P | Mar 18 23:20 |
| Balrog__ | Gnome ... well, ask Linux | Mar 18 23:21 |
| Balrog__ | Linus ** | Mar 18 23:21 |
| MinceR | i can find them | Mar 18 23:21 |
| MinceR | and i think anyone who has the intelligence that's necessary to use a light switch can find them | Mar 18 23:22 |
| Balrog__ | so can I. But a very small handful of people I know use mousefocus....probably one or two at most (other than you) | Mar 18 23:22 |
| MinceR | (oh, well, let's add literacy as a requirement) | Mar 18 23:22 |
| MinceR | the point is to provide the option | Mar 18 23:22 |
| MinceR | m$ and apple both believe they know better than the user | Mar 18 23:23 |
| MinceR | they don't. | Mar 18 23:23 |
| Balrog__ | there's shareware that seems to add it....http://atomicbird.com/mo... | Mar 18 23:23 |
| MinceR | until they realize that their guis will always inevitably suck. | Mar 18 23:23 |
| MinceR | this is something their self-appointed "usability experts" should realize. | Mar 18 23:23 |
| Balrog__ | (and other 'hacks'...) | Mar 18 23:23 |
| Balrog__ | you'll have very cluttered code if you implement every feature every person wants | Mar 18 23:24 |
| Balrog__ | even the Linux programmers know this. | Mar 18 23:24 |
| MinceR | well, focus follows mouse is nice on osx, but how will you reach the menu? | Mar 18 23:24 |
| MinceR | some idiot had the idea to put it at the top | Mar 18 23:24 |
| MinceR | what if another window is in the way? | Mar 18 23:24 |
| MinceR | that's right, it will receive focus and suddenly its menu is there | Mar 18 23:24 |
| Balrog__ | what about COMMAND-something? | Mar 18 23:24 |
| Balrog__ | also, the menu bar never gets covered | Mar 18 23:25 |
| MinceR | sometimes i don't want to mess with the keyboard | Mar 18 23:25 |
| MinceR | also, the menu bar of the topmost window never gets covered even if it isn't nailed to the top | Mar 18 23:25 |
| Balrog__ | I've seen apps with no menubars :-o | Mar 18 23:25 |
| MinceR | so have i | Mar 18 23:25 |
| Balrog__ | (on windows and linux) | Mar 18 23:25 |
| MinceR | and i still prefer the risc os way | Mar 18 23:25 |
| MinceR | btw, not even i knew what i wanted my gui to be like until i experimented a lot. | Mar 18 23:35 |
| PetoKraus | well | Mar 18 23:39 |
| PetoKraus | i am so used to my UI | Mar 18 23:39 |
| PetoKraus | that i can't work with anything else | Mar 18 23:39 |
| MinceR | i still have some ideas on how to change it. :) | Mar 18 23:39 |
| MinceR | gn | Mar 18 23:40 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Mar 18 23:42 | |
