Bonum Certa Men Certa

Anonymous Comments Are the Only Thing of Value Left at IP Kat

What's left of them anyway because they censor some 'inconvenient' (to EPO management) comments

IP Kat gags



Summary: Control of the narrative surrounding the EPO goes far and wide; it's still possible, however, to occasionally see what people really think

THE European Patent Office (EPO) of Campinos and Battistelli is a master of media manipulation, if not by bribery (as we've just noted) then by threats. They've send several English law firms after me. They're bullies. They're thugs. They not only abuse their staff but also the media.



The media is nowadays toothless to say the least when it comes to EPO coverage. The Register quit covering the subject for unknown reasons, the BBC apparently spiked a story about it, and this morning we've seen several puff pieces from the Financial Times of London, one of the biggest English papers (high circulation). When it comes to blogs (or less organised news media), things aren't any better. The EPO found allies with some of the very worst blogs. There were two attacks on Monday on 35 U.S.C. €§ 101. By Watchtroll of course ("Athena v. Mayo: A Splintered Federal Circuit Invites Supreme Court or Congress to Step Up On 101 Chaos" and "Beyond 101: An Inventor’s Plea for Comprehensive Reform of the U.S. Patent System"). They're basically attacking judges and courts again; the law firms lie about what technical people want and need. The patent zealots know no bounds. Now they bribe politicians, too... this judge-bashing site, Watchtroll, is the favourite "blog partner" of the EPO nowadays; they share their disdain for judges. They both promote software patents in Europe and Watchtroll repeatedly attacked the USPTO's Director when she wasn't its 'cup of tea' (she spoke about the problems associated with patent trolls).

"...the EPO decided not to change its behaviour but to change how the media covers it (if at all!)."Readers of ours are likely to see more and more articles bemoaning the media; I've sent some E-mails around and it seems growingly evident that there's an operation of 'cover up'; the EPO decided not to change its behaviour but to change how the media covers it (if at all!).

After the EPO temporarily banned IP Kat (in all sites) the blog chose to quit covering what people evidently cared about (the EPO's corruption), censoring comments on the matter too (in bulk even, in one fell swoop, not for violating any terms/conditions). Some of the key people, who used the pseudonym "Merpel" (it's not a single person, as one insider clarified to us), gradually left and yesterday the blog advertised "Openings for GuestKats and InternKats!"

"One needs to look at comments to actually catch a glimpse of what remotely looks like honest opinions from insiders."They're looking for writers as the blog collapsed (sharp decline in relevance) after refusing to cover EPO corruption -- the subject that attracted over 90% of comments if not visits. Earlier this summer one of their best writers left too; she had been there for years. So who's left there? People like Bristows staff/Team UPC (recall "Bristows/IP Kat Still Promoting UPC and Patent Trolls, Also Accused of Deleting Comments and “Brown-nosing” Judges to Help Patent Trolls") and various novices who may contribute one article per month. Team UPC totally controls the narrative around UPC; those inside the blog who criticised the UPC have already left.

As we've been arguing for a number of years, blog posts at IP Kat are usually less informative than comments (of which there aren't many anymore). Since Friday we've seen a number of comments being posted in IP Kat in reply to Justice Arnold throwing out European Patents. After millions of euros were wasted (passed to law firms) an actual court reached the conclusion that the underlying patents lacked merit. We generally trust independent judges a lot more than officials because, as we explained before, judges are to be judged based on the accuracy of their decisions (e.g. how many decisions get overturned), so it's more about laws than about money. Concepts like 'production' are rather meaningless to them. We still wonder, why are some judges mingling with think tanks of patent zealots, trolls, Battistelli, Team UPC etc.? The latest one to speak to Managing IP is Henry Carr and "[t]his is the second in our series of judge interviews. You can read the first, with Mr Justice Arnold, here."

Justice Arnold is generally OK and his court has, over the past few months, thrown out quite a few European Patents. His latest decision has gotten much attention and attracted much discussion in the comments section; these comments are as close as one can get to 'proper' coverage of EPO issues at IP Kat.

"Anonymous" wrote:

I see examination reports from the EPO on a weekly basis that both find a claim contains added subject-matter and then assess the novelty and inventive step of that self-same claim. It is good procedural examination practice that reduces the number of examination reports required. This is because if you successfully overcome the Art 123(2) objection you can have already dealt with the inventive step objection in the same response, rather than requiring the Examiner to then issue an additional report on inventive step.

The English court approach follows the same logic. They assess added subject-matter and inventive step separately so that if the Patentee successfully appeals on one issue the other issue is also dealt with at the appeal stage, rather than requiring a remittance back to the first instance.

In contrast, there is a real procedural issue with EPO Oppositions when a borderline decisions on added subject-matter are regularly issued without any subsequent assessment of novelty and inventive step. This means the Patentee has to appeal and, if successful, the opposition is simply remitted back to the Opposition Division for a further (appealable) decision on novelty and inventive step. As appeals can take 5 years or more, this piecemeal approach can mean the opposition process takes significantly longer than the remaining lifespan of a patent.

There is nothing legally incorrect in what you are saying about the assessment of novelty and inventive step on a claim with added subject-matter. But there is also nothing procedurally wrong in carrying out an assessment of novelty and inventive step of a claim on a conditional basis (i.e. on the basis that the decision on added subject-matter might subsequently be found to be wrong).


Another person said:

I may be being overly simplistic. Is it not just a matter of which rules apply?

In the event that an application is amended during prosecution it is Art 123(2), or I suppose Art 76(1) that apply.

This is of itself a ground of revocation or opposition as the case may be. If there is added matter, the patent or application is invalid. Loss of priority need not be decided (until the matter is rectified should that be necessary). If on the other hand there is no added matter, even if there were to be some link to priority entitlement (which I personally fail to see), then there is nothing to decide.

Loss of priority is a different question, which applies when a priority claiming application introduces new matter as compared to the priority founding case, or when there is a defect in the priority claim. This is not, of itself, a ground of revocation, but depends on the prior art which will become relevant if priority is lost. It is against that prior art which validity or otherwise must be judged.

I don't see that much is to be gained by muddying the waters.


MaxDrei said: "They know that justice (the over-riding objective of civil litigation in the UK) demands swift revocation of bad patents and equally swift enforcement of patents not found bad."

Full comment:

I'm both amused and shocked by the postings of "Explanation Please".

Courts (at least in England) perceive their role as a last resort in a dispute between A, a patent owner arguing infringement and B, a party seeking revocation of the patent and/or a declaration of non-infringement. They know that justice (the over-riding objective of civil litigation in the UK) demands swift revocation of bad patents and equally swift enforcement of patents not found bad. A and B demand nothing less. In the courts, in a real world dispute, with parties going out of business, there is no time for endless ping-pong betwewen the courts of the first instance and those of the second instance. Hence the decisions of the first instance take the issues in sequence, like at the EPO but, unlike at the EPO, they work their way through the issues, using wording equivalent to "But if I am wrong on Art 123(2) then I will go on to consider patentability over the art." That this could somehow be ultra vires is news to me.

The question arises, in a world where industry, stuck in a costly and time-wasting patent dispute, asks for "early certainty" why don't all first instance jurisdictions do it this way?

And as for the EPO, the best way I can think of, for Examiners to lose the sympathy of the outside world, is to reveal their ignorance of how business is done, and how patent disputes are resolved, in the real world outside the Ivory Towers in Munich and Den Haag.

Come now, Explanation Please. Explain yourself further please.


This is part of an ongoing discussion about blame being put on examiners rather than the people who bully them or bully the judges (whose decisions are followed by examiners). To quote:

"A claim has for effective date either the priority or the filing date, or in other words the date of the youngest feature in the claim, see Art 54 and Art 89. This is the only point on which I can agree with you."

We do not agree at all on your "in other words ..." insertion. The effective date for a claim is either the filing date of the application or the priority date, whether it complies with Article 123(2) EPC or not. This is clear from Articles 54 and 89.

"due to plain logic a claim infringing Art 123(2) cannot be at the same time new and inventive."

The EPC does not agree with you. According to Article 56 EPC, a claimed invention involves an inventive step if it is not obvious over the state of the art according to Article 54(2) EPC (read in combination with Article 89 EPC).

The requirement of Article 123(2) EPC is a separate one.

Your position seems to be that a claim that infringes Article 123(2) EPC cannot involve an inventive step. That would mean that a claim that infringes Article 123(2) EPC automatically infringes Article 56 EPC. That is a strange position to take.

"Please give one decision of the Boards of Appeal in which the Board has decided to discuss novelty or inventive step after having considered that the claim infringes Art 123(2)."

One example is T 488/02: claim 1 infringes Article 123(2), is new and is not inventive. Another example is T 1537/07.

I note that you were not able to cite any passage from the Guidelines or Case Law book that supports your position.

Please do not suggest that I am complaining about "all examiners". I complain about the very few examiners that share your very peculiar view, unsupported by Guidelines or case law. I don't know how many there are, but they tend to pop up in blog comments.

"The applicant/proprietor will always have an arguable case, but should then divisions refrain from raising objections at all, with the risk of being considered arrogant?"

That is not what I wrote.

My point is that the following is perfectly reasonable in a judgment by an English court as well as in a decision by an opposition division: (1) decide that claim 1 contains added subject-matter (2) (since the appeal court/board might disagree with the added-matter objection,) decide that claim 1 is not inventive. Or even that claim 1 is inventive, in which case the request clearly still has to be rejected because it infringes 123(2).

For an English court or for an opposition division of the EPO, there is no shame in acknowledging that reasonable minds may differ. That should not stop the court or the division from taking the decision it considers correct. It just means that it is neither shameful nor illogical to also take a decision on inventive step where that makes sense (= where the extra effort is outweighed by the advantage of possibly avoiding a remittal).

I suppose you have no problem with parallel clarity and added-matter objections. All I am saying is that a parallel objection on inventive step is no different. They are all separate objections. One objection is enough to reject the request, but it is fine to raise two or more objections against the same request or even decide that a request infringes one requirement but complies with certain other requirements. There is no obligation to do more than the minimum, but a division is free to use common sense.

"If a patent is dead as dead can be, for any another reason, it looks at least pointless to me to decide whether the subject-matter claimed was new and inventive."

Why would it be pointless? If there is an appeal and the board of appeal disagrees with that "another reason", a remittal has been avoided.


On it goes:

"By the way, there is another case in which it is not possible to compare an invention with the prior art, that is in case the invention is not enabled."

Also here I do not agree. The claim "1. A composition that help against headaches" is too broad to be sufficiently disclosed and lacks novelty over aspirin.

It is also possible for a claim to a specific embodiment to be insufficiently disclosed (because the application and common general knowledge do not allow the skilled person to carry it out) and to lack novelty or inventive step over a document that does contain all the missing information.

So be careful with general statements about how substantive requirements of the EPC relate to each other.


The sad thing is, such assessments aren't posted anywhere anymore; not in corporate media, not even in patent-centric blogs. One needs to look at comments to actually catch a glimpse of what remotely looks like honest opinions from insiders. Remember that comments sections are nowadays being 'sanitised' (censored) by Team UPC-friendly people, e.g. in Kluwer Patent Blog and other blogs. They even say so upfront, thereby discouraging some efforts to bother commenting (at risk of being muzzled and wasting one's time).

Recent Techrights' Posts

Before Freenode Collapsed Its Staff (the People Who Now Run Libera.Chat) Were Censoring/Silencing Some Free Software Supporters
We still have this issue in the Free software community
All We Want to See is Any Form of Accountability in Europe's Largest Institutions
Because people at the top of institutions should never be above the law!
Misinformation/Disinformation Disguised as Information About GNU General Public Licenses (GNU GPL) Usage
GPL-type licences (reciprocal obligations) remain dominant
IBM Mass Layoffs This Week Not Limited to North America, Red Hat Staff Terminated
Do not relocate for a company that sees you as nothing but a number or a "human resource"
 
Slopwatch: Brian Fagioli Targets "Linux" With LLMs, Google News Helps Blame "Linux" for Amazon WorkSpaces Flaws
Tonight's slopfest
Gemini Links 07/11/2025: Switzerland, k3s, and Privacy
Links for the day
Links 07/11/2025: Software Patents Squashed, Stock Markets Wobble Over Slop Uncertainties
Links for the day
A 19th Anniversary and High-Impact Exclusives
The end of 2025 will be very difficult for EPO management
The Register MS, Payroll First
GNU/Linux is a growing platform
Links 07/11/2025: US Government Shutdown Imperils Critical Functions, Slop in "AI" Clothing Debunked Some More, Bubble's Implosion Ongoing/Imminent According to Experts
Links for the day
Gemini Links 07/11/2025: No Goodbyes, Homelab, Mouse Keys / Pointer Keys
Links for the day
12 Years for Justice is Far Too Slow (and More People, Especially Women, Are Hurt)
Why do police departments and legal systems fail to protect women?
Freenode and irc.com Are Still Around
It emulates retro terminals
We Don't Compete, We Analyse and Report
Principles are so much better than money and they're something money can never acquire
Red Hat is Also Laying Off Staff in India
Red Hat is a dishonest company
Finding Recent Talks of Richard Stallman
We already have many pages, documents, and media files. Organising them and helping people find them is the next Big Task.
Richard Stallman First Speaker at Ethereum Cypherpunk Congress the Weekend After This Coming Weekend
He'll be speaking over the Net
Diversity at Red Hat
Remember to judge corporations by their actions, not some Web pages with words in them
First the Python Software Foundation (PSF) Attacked Its Most Productive Volunteers. Now It Attacks Its Funding Sources.
The U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF) rejected by PSF
News of Substance About the EPO's Substance Abuse (Cocaine)
EPO Cocaine Chronicles - link to archived BILD article and photos
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Thursday, November 06, 2025
IRC logs for Thursday, November 06, 2025
On Midlife Crises
Focus on the sabotage, not politics
Hallmark of Fake News: "Single-digit" (Percentage) and 1% Isn't the Same Thing
apparently "rebalancing" is the new layoffs euphemism
Links 07/11/2025: Patent Trolls Target Germany, Celebrities Visit Ukraine
Links for the day
Slopwatch: LinuxSecurity, Brian Fagioli, and Google News Boosting WebProNews (All Slopfarms)
Those slopfarms just saturate the Web with misinformation and mindless chaff
Techrights and Tux Machines at Over 40
19 years of Techrights and 21+ years of Tux Machines
Coming Soon: More Proof of Cocaine Use at Europe's Second-Largest Institution
Stay tuned
Entering Our 20th Year
...and still looking for answers
Mailing lists vs Discourse forums: open source communities or commodities?
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Links 06/11/2025: "Component Abuse Challenge", Google Play Store Deemed Too Monopolistic
Links for the day
Microsoft and Microsoft GitHub (and Rust @ Microsoft GitHub) the Future of Ubuntu, They Want the Same for Debian
Ubuntu is not the place to find freedom
Richard Stallman Was Right About LLM-based Chatbots
the passing fad, LLM-based chatbots
IBM Has Not Been Good for IBM's Red Hat (Which Microsoft Also Attempted to Buy)
GAFAM or GIAFAM are not a force for good
Taking Back Control Over Technology We Purchase (Study, Modify, Enhance, and More)
"The war on general-purpose computing continues
Links 06/11/2025: EFF Wants New Executive Director, Microsoft's Azure Falls Over Again
Links for the day
All Set for Tomorrow
Techrights waves
The Corporate Media Carries on With Patently Phony and Misleading Narrative About IBM's Mass Layoffs
Instead of rightly alleging business failure or commercial (leadership's) weakness it is offloading blame to some mindless buzzwords
IBM Isn't Hiring Based on Age Groups. It Still Hires Based on Salary Expectations.
It is not about the skills available, it's about the expected cost of labour
Estimating the Scale of IBM's Mass Layoffs This Week
there is no denying that the IBM layoffs are vast
Telling Our Story as Victims of Online Abuse
This post will not mention any names
Claim That EPO Quotas Brought Corruption and Mischief to Europe's Second-Largest Institution
Nowadays corruption is the norm at the EPO and there is even rampant substance abuse among the people who run the Office
Rust's "Memory Safety" Talking Point Ought to be Discarded in Light of Fil-C
new memory-safe C/C++ compiler
Claim That IBM Has Another 8 Days to Lay Off 'Expensive' Staff
The consensus in comments we see is, IBM is a terrible place to work in, treatment of its workers is appalling, it's utterly foolish to relocate in an effort to retain a job at IBM, and it's foolish to join the company in the first place
Science Demands Facts, Not Dogma
Saying that restricted hardware is not secure hardware should be common sense
Site Anniversary is Tomorrow
The celebrations might delay our EPO series somewhat
Launching Techrights Search
New search interface and locally hosted back end
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, November 05, 2025
IRC logs for Wednesday, November 05, 2025
Slopwatch: linuxbsdos.com, Linux Journal, LinuxSecurity, Brian Fagioli, and WebProNews
Either Google doesn't care about the integrity of Google News or it deems slop to be acceptable
Gemini Links 05/11/2025: Affirmation, GnuPG, and While Loops
Links for the day
Links 05/11/2025: Economic Trouble in France and US Bombing All Over the World Without Declaration of War or Congress Approving
Links for the day
IBM May Well Be Laying Off Over 13,500 and Up to 27,000 Staff This Week When It Says "Single-Digit Percentage of Our Global Workforce"
It's not yet possible to know how many people IBM gets rid of
Red Hat Staff Also Impacted by Latest IBM Layoffs With Focus on North America and Software, Infrastructure
After the bluewashing never expect to see news about "Red Hat layoffs", just as "Tivoli layoffs" aren't to be expected
Early Unverified Figures About Scale of Latest IBM Layoffs
the real scale of the RAs will remain elusive
Coming Soon: Part 4 About the EPO's Substance Abuse (Breaking Laws to Fake 'Production' and Profiting From Unlawful Monopolies)
Notice how quiet the EPO's management has been lately
How Techrights Search Works
Hopefully bots won't use it
For the Record: We Never Named Staff of the Law Firm That's Attacking Us, Except the One the Firm is Named After!
Just to affirm and be sure, I've used our new search facility
Techrights Became a Lot More Productive as a Result of Attacks on It
By default, it's safe to assume anything on the Web is garbage, especially in social control media
Unverified Rumours: IBM Cuts Will Continue Another ~10 Days, Managers Will Invite Those Impacted for 1-on-1 Meetings
Right now IBM likes diversity because with adoption of low-paid demographies it gets to pay workers less for the same work
Links 05/11/2025: Medicare Privatisation and "Breaker Box Economy"
Links for the day
Techrights Search Will Come Early
Maybe tomorrow
It Seems Like GNOME/IBM Don't Like Women and When Budget is Limited Only Women Take the Fall
Seems like a very patriarchal, GAFAM-controlled Foundation
"Last Day" as in "IBM Sacked Me" (Cruel Euphemisms)
"The entire design and research technical leadership at IBM was laid off in the past year, including this round"
analytics.usa.gov: Vista 11 Scarcely Used, GNU/Linux Increasingly Dominant (Microsoft Loses "Goodwill", Depletes Cash Equivalents, and Debt Soars)
"Total current assets" fell by more than 2 billion dollars in the past 3 months
Shadow Crew and Ads Disguised as Articles
That The Register MS runs articles that are paid-for fluff isn't unprecedented
Vista 11 "Market Share" Has Fallen This Month, Based on statCounter
The US government's own data shows the same thing this month
This is How Mainstream Media, Boosted or Parroted by Slopfarms, Spins IBM's Commercial Failure and Mass Layoffs as "AI"
Some say "software focus", but most just resort to buzzwords and blame-shifting hype
Resisting Misogynists
Rianne has already added close to 100,000 pages to this site
Starting November on a Strong Note
All in all, this month started well for us as we have good, accurate publications with considerable impact
Fake Retirements Help IBM Keep the Layoff Figures Down
Yesterday we read that it was quite cruel how IBM (or Red Hat) compelled staff to pretend to be happily leaving or "retiring" when the reality was, they had been pushed out with some "package"
Cocaine at the European Patent Office Now a Subject in YouTube, Media Will Revisit the Topic
"The Cocaine Patent Office" is no joking matter
Gemini Links 05/11/2025: "Wuthering Heights" and "Winter is Coming"
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, November 04, 2025
IRC logs for Tuesday, November 04, 2025
2 Days Until Site Anniversary Party, Search Likely to Launch Same Day
We're now just two days away from the nineteenth anniversary of the site
Not Only Mass Layoffs at IBM But Complete Shutdowns "Amid A.I. Boom"
apparently about 10,000 layoffs, not counting those who got pushed out by PIPs and other means