09.07.08

Gemini version available ♊︎

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 6th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:57 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

ZiggyFish http://www.computerworld.com/action/articl… Sep 06 00:07
ZiggyFish Open source: What you should learn from the French Sep 06 00:07
schestowitz It’s interesting that CW is with IDG now. Was it always the case? Sep 06 00:08
schestowitz I’ve been noticing this recently. Sep 06 00:08
schestowitz IDG is IDC related, IIRC, i.e. Microsoft money on the table. Sep 06 00:08
ZiggyFish lol Sep 06 00:09
schestowitz http://www.boozallen.com/news/38177659   “McLean, VA – June 18, 2007 – Booz Allen Hamilton announced today that IDG’s Computerworld magazine” Sep 06 00:09
schestowitz Hmmmm…. weird. I didn’t realise it Sep 06 00:10
schestowitz http://www.ntcompatible.com/IDC_Cost_Analysis_Fund… Sep 06 00:11
schestowitz “eWeek’s Peter Galli gets the scoop that the recent IDC paper, which claims that the total cost of ownership (TOC) for Windows beats out Linux servers, was actually sponsored by Microsoft itself. ” Galli seems to have retired or something this year Sep 06 00:12
schestowitz “Research firm IDC, in a Microsoft-funded study…” http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.html Sep 06 00:12
schestowitz “IDC is a subsidiary of IDG , the world’s leading technology media, research, and events company. Additional information can be found at www.idc.com.” http://www.idg.com/www/HomeNew.nsf/docs/idc Sep 06 00:13
ZiggyFish Firefox users report problems after updating ( http://www.computerworld.com/actio… ) – another Microsoft Fuck up Sep 06 00:13
schestowitz I should really write something about it. IDG is huge, so the bias is clearer to see. Sep 06 00:13
ZiggyFish yeah Sep 06 00:13
schestowitz This affects ComputerWorld, NetworkWorld, PCWorld, LinuxWorld and many other publications Sep 06 00:14
schestowitz LinuxInsider too was sold to ECT, which now uses it to attack Linux sometimes. Sep 06 00:14
ZiggyFish yeah Sep 06 00:15
schestowitz Anyway, I’ll write about it tomorrow cause I’m tired, so I’ll just post some links. Sep 06 00:16
ZiggyFish nice Sep 06 00:20
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ZiggyFish hey Sep 06 04:25
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seller_liar I remember now , dot gnu does not suffer about ms deal because gplv3 Sep 06 06:06
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warren Hi folks, just wanted to say, keep up the good work. =) Sep 06 06:40
warren My dislike of Novell really began with this: http://wtogami.livejournal.com/11305.html Sep 06 06:41
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schestowitz Hey, Warren. Thanks. Sep 06 07:02
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schestowitz It seems like Mr. Microsoft Consultant is threatening to harm this IRC channel unless he’s permitted here: http://www.fsdaily.com/Business/Boy… Sep 06 08:14
tessier What a wanker Sep 06 08:37
tessier Just ignore him Sep 06 08:37
schestowitz I di. Sep 06 08:37
schestowitz *do Sep 06 08:37
benJIman Normally bans are removed after a short time, if the person being banned is not a repeat troublemaker. Sep 06 09:18
*schestowitz removes ban on *!*@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cj Sep 06 09:28
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schestowitz Monty is out! “First, it’s a rumour. Technically there is no resignation letter. However, I spoke to Monty yesterday, and yes, resignation is an option he considers,” reads a blog post from Kaj Arnö, MySQL vice president for spin community relations.” http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09… Sep 06 09:34
schestowitz It’s probably good news. Monty was a lobbying /against/ software patents and Sun’s attitude towards GNU/Linux and patents must not have done good. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05… Sep 06 09:35
PetoKraus man Sep 06 09:43
PetoKraus http://biosyourlife.com/index.php?opt… Sep 06 09:43
PetoKraus this is RUBBISH Sep 06 09:43
schestowitz It’s corny, I know. Sep 06 09:44
schestowitz Watch the signature: “MS” Sep 06 09:44
PetoKraus yeah Sep 06 09:44
PetoKraus i mean Sep 06 09:44
PetoKraus it’s such a horrible article, that if it was written about windows, we’d call the author “paid for” Sep 06 09:45
schestowitz Maybe MS is [M]ark [S]huttlworth. :-) Sep 06 09:46
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trmanco hey cool Sep 06 10:01
trmanco cola has stats Sep 06 10:01
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benJIman schestowitz: btw “Use the chanserv “op” command to obtain channel operator status only when needed. This will help to keep your channel temperature low and reduce conflicts.” [ http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml ] Sep 06 10:13
schestowitz benJIman: if you’re gonna heckle, please take it elsewhere. You’re not here for good reasons and you know it. There are at last 3 OpenSUSE people in the channel right now and you lecture us on “temperature”. Sep 06 10:17
benJIman Just pointing out freenode policy. Sep 06 10:17
schestowitz How convenient. “It’s not me, it’s him” Sep 06 10:17
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captain_magnus schestowitz: “good reasons”? Sep 06 10:37
schestowitz captain_OpenSUSE_magnus: yes, good reasons. You’re not trying to help. You’re /against/ BN. Sep 06 10:37
captain_magnus schestowitz: Glad we got that out of the way schestowitz_Not_openSUSE. Was just curious what good reasons were Sep 06 10:40
schestowitz But don’t worry, I won’t provoke or criticise you guys anymore. It’s Novell that’s the issue. I have a good post about OpenSUSE coming. Sep 06 10:41
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mib_4t537t hellooo everybody Sep 06 10:57
schestowitz Hi there, what’s up? Sep 06 10:58
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kentma schestowitz: I’m going to be doing some system maintenance today – there will be some downtime, sorry. Sep 06 11:32
schestowitz That’s cool. Sep 06 11:36
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trmanco schestowitz, that key you use on the usenet is really yours right? Sep 06 11:46
schestowitz Yes, if you can validate it. Some people faked that by copying and pasting (and posting under my name). Sep 06 11:52
trmanco the one with the key id: 74572E8E Sep 06 11:55
trmanco I’ll validate it and trust it Sep 06 11:55
Odd_Bloke Uhm, you shouldn’t really trust a key based on an IRC conversation. Sep 06 11:57
schestowitz http://schestowitz.com/PGP/ Sep 06 11:58
trmanco well Sep 06 11:58
trmanco I can’t go visit him personally and confirm if the key is really his :P Sep 06 11:59
Odd_Bloke That’s still not enough to trust it. Sep 06 11:59
Odd_Bloke Then don’t trust it. Sep 06 11:59
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kentma schestowitz: should be up again now..? Sep 06 13:12
schestowitz Works perfectly! I suppose you’ve patched up that OpenSSL thingie. Sep 06 13:13
kentma I think so… Sep 06 13:14
kentma seem to be on up to date versions, so should be fine. Sep 06 13:14
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schestowitz I updated a Ubuntu box some days ago (I burned literally HALF a day struggling with that one) and it got a shrwed mechanism for patching it. Sep 06 13:15
schestowitz Not only does it get a modified package but it also regenerates the keys. Sep 06 13:15
kentma neat! Sep 06 13:15
schestowitz BTW, this problem was due to  – guess what — a bad hub! Sep 06 13:15
schestowitz Took me ages to find the cause of the issue. Not even rebooting the hub would help and I tried everything! Sep 06 13:16
kentma I’ve just replaced yet another disk here… Sep 06 13:16
schestowitz Even rebotted the switch. Sep 06 13:16
kentma this is where ip networks are terrible – there’s almost no proper maintenance information from them. Sep 06 13:16
schestowitz I’m going to take back my position as a network engineer to pay my bills, ensuring I can carry on advocating FOSS without running out of money. Sep 06 13:16
schestowitz I spoke about this with my dad this morning. I guess it’s a good solution. Sep 06 13:17
kentma probablyh a good plan – running out of cash is not a great idea :-) Sep 06 13:17
jose tough compromises. Sep 06 13:17
schestowitz Yup. I’ve had some savings because I had worked since I was like 14, but that too may run out. Sep 06 13:17
jose if only the cash would last longer Sep 06 13:17
kentma it would be useful it if could be rolled thinner :-) Sep 06 13:18
schestowitz jose: how’s the economy over there in Florida? Sep 06 13:18
schestowitz I have many relatives there. Sep 06 13:18
jose it should worsen by the month.. at least for now Sep 06 13:18
jose i’m not employed in IT Sep 06 13:18
jose i cannot handle emplyee relationship for that sort of work Sep 06 13:19
schestowitz jose:  good fot you. Sep 06 13:19
schestowitz *for Sep 06 13:19
jose i did always think i had a rather good fot. Sep 06 13:19
schestowitz The last I’be heard, Shane (of BN) quit this industry. It’s chaos. Sep 06 13:19
schestowitz Engineers becoming non-techies. Sep 06 13:19
jose There should be more (greater volume) of interesting work as linux is taken up Sep 06 13:20
schestowitz jose: yes, that too. Sep 06 13:20
jose everywhere savings are taking a hit as prices rise and wages…. Sep 06 13:20
schestowitz Thankfully I don’t have to mess with Windows in my IT roles. Sep 06 13:21
schestowitz jose: in FL too? Sep 06 13:21
jose schestowitz: i just wrote this. http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.ph… Sep 06 13:21
jose in FL literal wages are stagnant or even dropping deceptively while all prices have gone up Sep 06 13:22
jose naturally *real* wages are dropping Sep 06 13:22
schestowitz My cousins is in construction; that can’t be good. After hurricane Andrew he had lots of business (rebuilding), but now it’s the opposite. Sep 06 13:22
schestowitz Well, that’s a bummer for those with mortgages. Sep 06 13:22
jose yeah, construction has taken a hit along with the entire housing sector Sep 06 13:23
schestowitz I have a friend who’s stressed out about it. Some people can lose their house. Sep 06 13:23
jose if you keep your job, you can continue to pay the mortgage though psychologically you will have to fight uphill Sep 06 13:23
jose knowing that so much equity has disappeared and that you now have extra debt Sep 06 13:24
schestowitz For how long? :-) 20 years ? Sep 06 13:24
jose linux will save everything :-) Sep 06 13:24
jose 3.. 4 years Sep 06 13:24
jose linux is coming Sep 06 13:24
schestowitz That guys I’m actually competing against today. Rowing competition. I’m probably going to win the plate this year. :-) Sep 06 13:24
jose what kind of rowing Sep 06 13:24
jose team? Sep 06 13:24
schestowitz jose: companies will collapse along with their tissue paper money Sep 06 13:25
schestowitz The fear is that deficit will be shown for what it is once companies go bankrupt. Look at SCO… from ‘hero’ to zero in Sept. 2007. Sep 06 13:25
jose yeah but ma and pa will have an unfair share of that tissue paper if it does in fact drop like a rock Sep 06 13:25
schestowitz jose: oars. Sep 06 13:25
schestowitz Ma and pa might live in a tent by that time Sep 06 13:26
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/results?se… Sep 06 13:26
schestowitz The press doesn’t cover ‘tent cities’. It shows ‘American dream’ though, you know, to keep people hopeful and motivates. That’s Hollywood brainwash for you. Sep 06 13:29
schestowitz *motivated Sep 06 13:29
jose wallstreet greed Sep 06 13:29
jose there should be laws where people’s fundamental needs take precendence over business. This way the business community is forced to find solutions or be more careful Sep 06 13:30
jose http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbns4… Sep 06 13:31
schestowitz It’s shocking I know. Let me watch this. Sep 06 13:32
jose i’ll be back a little later Sep 06 13:40
schestowitz I’ll be around. Sep 06 13:40
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schestowitz The Microsoft money in IDG/IDC goes a long way back on the face of it: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.html http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/St… Sep 06 14:41
jose schestowitz, did you change the url to this page http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/… ? Sep 06 14:54
schestowitz I haven’t, why? Sep 06 14:58
schestowitz Oh f*!!! Sep 06 14:58
schestowitz It’s that annoying bug that turns posts “Private” Sep 06 14:59
schestowitz How long has this gone on for, I wonder.. Sep 06 14:59
jose just checked right now. i posted something there yesterday. Sep 06 15:02
schestowitz I fixed it a moment ago. Sep 06 15:02
schestowitz It must have lasted for a few hours, which is shame because Carla selected it for front page of Linux Today. Sep 06 15:02
trmanco schestowitz, what version of what are you using on BN? Sep 06 15:04
trmanco It looks like WordPress to me but I’m not quite sure Sep 06 15:05
kentma schestowitz: sorry another outage —  hard drive problems :-( Sep 06 15:07
schestowitz 2.0.x Sep 06 15:07
schestowitz It’s LTS, kentma, because it’s on Debian repos. Sep 06 15:07
trmanco hmm Sep 06 15:07
trmanco a little old :P Sep 06 15:07
kentma LTS? Sep 06 15:07
schestowitz No, it’s being patched. Sep 06 15:07
schestowitz Until 2010, IIRC. Sep 06 15:07
schestowitz I have 2.6 on my other blogs. Sep 06 15:07
trmanco ok Sep 06 15:08
schestowitz With BN, I have some plugins that I don’t want to risk losing. Sep 06 15:08
schestowitz http://wordpress.org/download/legacy/ Sep 06 15:09
schestowitz “In keeping with the stable/testing release philosophy of Debian we have committed to maintaining our 2.0 branch with security and critical fixes until 2010. (Yes that’s 5 years after it was originally released in 2005.)” Sep 06 15:09
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trmanco cool Sep 06 15:11
trmanco I didn’t know that Sep 06 15:11
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Odd_Bloke I agree with most of http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/… but Microsoft aren’t doing anything to not “permit the Kenyan people to have freedom with Free(dom) software”. Sep 06 15:23
Odd_Bloke s/anything/anything reported within that article and directly related to cyber cafes/ Sep 06 15:23
jose I imagine bn has covered OLPC and Kenya, right? There is also the implied effects of dumping. While $3 is dumping when you consider it’s regular price elsewhere, I think the $0 piracy is also dumping.. freebies being given to defund competitors.. think netscape and free ie and the loss they took in court as a result. Sep 06 15:39
schestowitz Yes, and cost of a copy is $0 anyway. Sep 06 15:41
jose It’s the behinds the scenes dirt that we all want.. but that is hard to get.. assuming it exists. Sep 06 15:41
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/03/… Sep 06 15:42
*schestowitz off for a while Sep 06 15:50
jose bn works to help put the puzzle pieces together but you don’t always get the hand pulling trigger piece for each and every event. Sep 06 15:53
jose .. at least not right away. Sep 06 15:54
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seller_liar schestowitz: hello roy Sep 06 16:23
seller_liar schestowitz: cj have a problem with you Sep 06 16:23
warren btw, what motivates you to boycott novell? Sep 06 16:30
seller_liar what? Sep 06 16:31
trmanco http://www.techwatch.co.uk/2008/09/0… Sep 06 16:32
trmanco seller_liar, Roy is away Sep 06 16:32
seller_liar trmanco: sim ,eu vi Sep 06 16:32
trmanco »»»»  * schestowitz off for a while Sep 06 16:32
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seller_liar trmanco: I remember now, dot gnu does not suffer of patent problems like novellsoft beucause it’s gplv3 Sep 06 16:42
seller_liar trmanco: documentaries have more power over text, if roy can do a documentary about m$ ,this is can be good Sep 06 16:47
seller_liar trmanco: look super size me for example Sep 06 16:47
trmanco A documentary Sep 06 16:48
seller_liar trmanco: yes Sep 06 16:49
trmanco we can contact Michael Moore, I’m sure the message will get to the vast majority :P Sep 06 16:49
seller_liar trmanco: hehe… Sep 06 16:49
seller_liar trmanco: but one image means 100 words Sep 06 16:50
seller_liar trmanco: it’s hard , i know,but the efficiency is the best Sep 06 16:50
seller_liar trmanco: easy language, passive information are the best of television Sep 06 16:51
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jose Latest comment titled “Novell the liability” http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3… Sep 06 17:46
jose roy has put together a lot of information. many producers could leverage it. including amateurs in bunches on youtube. ;-) Sep 06 17:47
trmanco :) Sep 06 17:48
kentma schestowitz: further server probs – sorry. Sep 06 17:51
jose later Sep 06 18:21
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schestowitz I won! (5:23 for one mile rowing) Sep 06 19:08
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Goldenear Hi there Sep 06 19:18
Goldenear I would like to chat about the fear around mono Sep 06 19:19
Goldenear I would try to understand Sep 06 19:19
schestowitz Sure. Sep 06 19:20
Goldenear most popular linux distros now include mono by default Sep 06 19:20
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Goldenear but many people on the web are against that Sep 06 19:21
Goldenear I’m trying to understand what’s wrong with mono Sep 06 19:21
schestowitz Goldenear: some include it by default “because others do” Sep 06 19:21
tessier It’s a trap. :( Sep 06 19:21
Goldenear but what’s wrong in doing so Sep 06 19:22
schestowitz Fedora for example thought it was ‘safe’ (it knew it was controversial and denied it before). Then it said “everyone does it” Sep 06 19:22
tessier Microsoft is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patents and these people think it’s a good idea use mono. Sep 06 19:22
schestowitz The same is often said about codecs, but the difference is the /holder/ of the patents,. Sep 06 19:22
schestowitz I  May 2007 Microsoft openly threatened to sue Linux vendors/users. Sep 06 19:22
tessier Goldenear: There are tons of good and similar technologies out there. Why adopt the riskiest one? Sep 06 19:22
tessier And you can never tell which of the mono advocates Microsoft is behind. Sep 06 19:23
schestowitz Goldenear: it’s not just patents though. There are other more serious issues. Sep 06 19:23
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tessier So it’s hard to tell who is really being deceptive and who really thinks mono is a good technology. Sep 06 19:23
schestowitz For one thing, Microsoft wants .NET spread throughout the Web for greater control. Sep 06 19:23
tessier And if .NET spreads we can only use IE to view the web. And no IE for Linux. Sep 06 19:23
Goldenear but arent’t the patents issue only about the winforms asp and other specific Microsoft stuffs ? Sep 06 19:23
schestowitz There’s a great deal of pseudo support of Mono/.NET but that’s another matter. Sep 06 19:24
tessier Goldenear: They won’t say what the patent issue is. It may even be with Mono. Sep 06 19:24
schestowitz Microsoft for example was caught gaming polls to give the illusion that .NET is better. Sep 06 19:24
tessier Given that mono is a clone of a Microsoft technology it seems likely. Sep 06 19:24
schestowitz Do search on .NET in Google Patents. Sep 06 19:25
schestowitz I did that last week. Sep 06 19:25
Goldenear C# is not patented ? Sep 06 19:25
schestowitz The excuse made is that it’s standardised Sep 06 19:26
tessier Many of the techniques and technologies in C# are patented, yes. Sep 06 19:26
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schestowitz However, standards and patents are not mutually exclusive. Sep 06 19:26
schestowitz tessier: based on what I hear from people, the issue of control (technical) is greater than patents (legal) Sep 06 19:26
schestowitz Just watch Silverlight/Moonlight. Sep 06 19:26
schestowitz here you have an example of the illusion of parity. Sep 06 19:27
tessier That’s probably true. But if control fails they will definitely resort to patents. Sep 06 19:27
schestowitz Could Moonlight users get access to the Olympic? No? Why not? because Microsoft owns the API Sep 06 19:27
schestowitz Had it been Ajax+Ogg, none of this would happen. Sep 06 19:27
schestowitz FF 3.1 will have Ogg built in and Chrome pushes JS and Ajax further. FF3.1 also matches Chrime performance and surpasses it. Sep 06 19:28
schestowitz tessier: that’s what Rambus did. Sep 06 19:28
schestowitz Companies relinquish control of their so-called INNOVA~1 only as long as they are fat, happy and profitable. Sep 06 19:28
Goldenear is there any evidence that Microsoft could have something againt GTK# (from a patent point of view) ? Sep 06 19:28
tessier Goldenear: They will never tell us exactly what patents are being infringed by what. Sep 06 19:29
schestowitz Microsoft has lost around 100 billiob dollar in value this year, so don’t expect it to be gantle. Sep 06 19:29
Goldenear I mean more against GTK# than about GTK+ Sep 06 19:29
schestowitz *gentle Sep 06 19:29
Goldenear I don’t expect that from them Sep 06 19:29
schestowitz There are also submarine patents. Sep 06 19:29
tessier Goldenear: You don’t expect what from the? Sep 06 19:29
tessier th Sep 06 19:29
tessier them Sep 06 19:30
schestowitz Watch them patenting PgUp/PgDn in 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Sep 06 19:30
Goldenear but I don’t wont to become paranoid neither Sep 06 19:30
*tessier needs to find out why his keyboard drops keys Sep 06 19:30
schestowitz What ought to be proposed is this. Sep 06 19:31
schestowitz Until the folks at Novell openly explain how they got exclusive ‘protection’ for Mono and what individual patents are involve, say no to Novell’s Mono (yes, Novell owns the framework) Sep 06 19:31
Goldenear anyway software patents is a poison for FOSS Sep 06 19:32
schestowitz Granted, they cannot be granted except for in very few countries, let alone be honoured. Sep 06 19:33
schestowitz Microsoft bypasses the law, e.g. in India, South Africa, which means that it breaks the law by filing for software patents there. Also, it cashes in on imaginary software patents (Dell for example, plus back room deal). Microsoft is like Sisvel. Sep 06 19:35
Goldenear I’m living in Europe so I’ve not (yet) problem with software patents Sep 06 19:36
Goldenear but eg in the US it’s a real nightmare Sep 06 19:37
schestowitz Don’t worry, it’s imploding there too, but don’t be part of this implosion. Sep 06 19:37
Goldenear I’m pretty sure that microsoft is right where it  is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patents Sep 06 19:38
Goldenear there are patents for almost anything Sep 06 19:38
Goldenear that’s so crazy Sep 06 19:38
schestowitz Do you know how many IBM patents (i.e. OIN too) Microsoft infringes on? Sep 06 19:39
Goldenear and vice versa Sep 06 19:39
schestowitz Yes, which renders this whole system moot. Sep 06 19:40
Goldenear but you are protected againt other big companies when you are a big company :) Sep 06 19:40
schestowitz It’s more complicated Sep 06 19:40
schestowitz Microsoft would not attack Linux directly /because/ of this, Sep 06 19:40
Goldenear the system is only there to kill small businesses Sep 06 19:40
schestowitz It can pass on a little patent to Nathan Myhrvold or other former scum and have the patent troll attack Linux. Sep 06 19:40
schestowitz They may have already done this with Acacia (against Novell and Red Hat) Sep 06 19:41
Goldenear except the patents issue, is there anything else against mono ? Sep 06 19:42
schestowitz Yes, API control. Sep 06 19:43
schestowitz That’s the issue which I consider more serious. Sep 06 19:43
schestowitz I’d need an analogy here. Sep 06 19:43
Goldenear API control by Microsoft ? Sep 06 19:44
schestowitz OOXML is one. Sep 06 19:44
Goldenear the difference is that OOXML already had a free/open equivalent Sep 06 19:45
schestowitz Microsoft can and will (and already has) extend OOXML and have everyone at Microsoft’s mercy not just because it’s impossible to implement but also because of legal grounds. And let’s not get into the OOXML corruptions even… Sep 06 19:45
*libervisco has quit (“Ideas are bullet proof.”) Sep 06 19:45
schestowitz Goldenear: like java? Sep 06 19:45
Goldenear isn’t the java api controlled by sun ? Sep 06 19:45
schestowitz Goldenear: does Java want to “f* kill” the “cancer” called F OSS? Sep 06 19:46
Goldenear ? Sep 06 19:46
schestowitz Microsoft’s one side of the mouth says use Mono (yes, its people say so) and the other says that it’s only for Novell and that it can and might sue over patents. Sep 06 19:47
Goldenear so, why not fork mono and make a clean one, only with GTK# ? Sep 06 19:48
schestowitz Define ‘clean’ for a clone. Sep 06 19:49
schestowitz It’s like saying “let’s make a clean version of OOXML” Sep 06 19:49
Goldenear OOXML is not clean from it’s basis… it’s really MS office dependent (and at least the first version of OOXML included some dark binary blobs) Sep 06 19:50
Goldenear c# is now an ecma standard… so it can be freely implemented Sep 06 19:51
schestowitz Free as in…? Sep 06 19:51
Goldenear gtk# is just gtk for c# Sep 06 19:51
Goldenear free as a free people Sep 06 19:52
benJIman I think not providing mono would be a much bigger hinderance to free software. Developers are more likely to write and contribute to free software in their spare time if they can do so with a language and platform they know. Not allowing .net developers to contribute is losing a massive potential contributor base. Sep 06 19:52
schestowitz Should Linux also adopt DirectX and ActiveX? Sep 06 19:52
benJIman The kernel? Sep 06 19:53
schestowitz You know what I mean Sep 06 19:53
benJIman If someone wants to work on implementing them then sure. Sep 06 19:53
Goldenear wine can run many directx apps Sep 06 19:53
benJIman Indeed. Sep 06 19:53
schestowitz Yes, BUT. Sep 06 19:54
schestowitz People do not develop on Linux /FOR/ Wine. Sep 06 19:54
benJIman Some people do. Sep 06 19:54
benJIman e.g. picassa for winelib iirc. Sep 06 19:54
schestowitz It’s one thing to bring .NET application to run them on Linux and another to use Monodevelop to write them from scratch the Microsoft way. Sep 06 19:54
Goldenear but that a very special case imho Sep 06 19:54
schestowitz How so? Sep 06 19:54
benJIman schestowitz: Even if those developers would otherwise not contribute to free software at all? Sep 06 19:55
schestowitz You give them convenience with bad habits, so they won’t change them. Sep 06 19:56
benJIman schestowitz: If .net is used for 20-30% of business software development (numbers out of the air, but not an unreasonable guess I think) then that’s an awful lot of people who could be contributing. Sep 06 19:56
schestowitz Compromise. Sep 06 19:56
schestowitz http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.html Sep 06 19:56
benJIman If the implementation were non-free I might agree with you. Sep 06 19:56
schestowitz They empower an enemy of fredom. Sep 06 19:57
benJIman Free software is free to empower anyone. Sep 06 19:58
Goldenear If it’s done cleverly mono could empower freedom with a Microsoft based technology… Sep 06 19:58
Goldenear the trick is just to be vigilent Sep 06 19:58
schestowitz For the record, Goldenear, benJIman is here to defend Novell. Sep 06 20:00
Goldenear why couldn’t gtk# be a weapon against MS Sep 06 20:00
benJIman For the record, I am not here to defend Novell. Sep 06 20:00
schestowitz Because as soon as gtk# becomes a threat to Microsoft, it has power to harm it. Sep 06 20:00
schestowitz not the same with gtk+ Sep 06 20:00
Goldenear what’s the difference ? Sep 06 20:01
benJIman I disagree with the personification of Microsoft as an evil entity. I have no problem disagreeing with some of their corporate actions, they do some things that are helpful for free software too. Sep 06 20:01
schestowitz benJIman: *LOL* Yeah, not at all… Sep 06 20:01
schestowitz benJIman: You’re here to ‘add balance’ Sep 06 20:01
benJIman schestowitz: As I mentioned yesterday I disagree with Novell’s actions on many things, including parts of the microsoft covenant. Sep 06 20:01
schestowitz Goldenear: Microsoft controls the API and get hooked on C# Sep 06 20:01
Goldenear but now C# is ecma, MS is not alone to be allowed to control it, isn’t it ? Sep 06 20:02
schestowitz Do you know what ECMA is? Sep 06 20:03
Goldenear yes I do… what do you mean ? Sep 06 20:04
schestowitz It’s corrupt. it’s a front for companies. Sep 06 20:06
Goldenear and what about ISO ? Sep 06 20:09
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schestowitz Same now that it was captured by a vendor, but not quite as bad. Sep 06 20:11
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schestowitz ECMA is partly responsible for what happened to ISO. Sep 06 20:12
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Goldenear if java is a real challenger for mono, why is it not used for making Linux/gnome apps ? Sep 06 20:15
benJIman It is. Sep 06 20:15
Goldenear do you have example of a java/gnome application ? Sep 06 20:16
benJIman Google java-gnome there are some. Sep 06 20:16
Goldenear I can’t find any Sep 06 20:16
schestowitz RSSOwl. Sep 06 20:17
benJIman Not as many because it until recently mono was freer than java, and also mono has had more desktop sponsorship from novell. Sep 06 20:17
schestowitz It uses Eclipse though. Sep 06 20:17
Goldenear is java really freer than mono now ? Sep 06 20:20
tessier OO.org uses Java Sep 06 20:21
Goldenear but it’s not a java app Sep 06 20:22
Goldenear it only extents some of its functions in java Sep 06 20:22
tessier It comes with java apps Sep 06 20:22
benJIman There are a few java-swt applications. e.g. eclipse, azureus. Fewer using java-gnome though. Sep 06 20:23
benJIman Not many qtjambi apps yet either, quite a new technology. Sep 06 20:24
Goldenear benJIman: could you give me the name of one java-gnome application ? Sep 06 20:26
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schestowitz Default? Sep 06 20:28
schestowitz http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8111 Sep 06 20:30
benJIman Goldenear: I don’t use GNOME, don’t really follow such things. Sep 06 20:30
benJIman Have you looked at their website? Sep 06 20:30
Goldenear yep Sep 06 20:30
Goldenear what do you use benJIman ? Sep 06 20:32
Goldenear KDE ? Sep 06 20:32
benJIman Yes. Sep 06 20:32
Goldenear I did too Sep 06 20:32
PetoKraus i can say i never used kde or gnome Sep 06 20:33
Goldenear but I sadly had to admit that gnome seems to have won the Linux desktop as a standard… because of gtk LGPL Sep 06 20:33
benJIman Well I might be tempted to use GNOME as I’d be more likely to contribute to it with mono than KDE with c++. Sep 06 20:34
benJIman But there are some deal breakers. Sep 06 20:34
benJIman Like the dialogue buttons being the wrong way round. Sep 06 20:34
Goldenear what do you mean ? Sep 06 20:34
benJIman In GNOME the “lose my work” button is where most of the computing world has the “save” button. Sep 06 20:35
benJIman On every dialogue. Sep 06 20:35
PetoKraus there’s no consistency whatsoever even under gnome apps Sep 06 20:35
Goldenear I din’t notice that Sep 06 20:35
Goldenear PetoKraus: no consistency ? Sep 06 20:36
PetoKraus in the placement of “save / don’t save / cancel” buttons Sep 06 20:36
schestowitz There are icons. Sep 06 20:37
schestowitz Can’t miss the nice green ones. Same in KDE. Sep 06 20:37
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PetoKraus one would have to get used to the fact, that “linux desktop” will be inconsistent Sep 06 20:39
schestowitz Inconsistency is prevalent in other systems too. Even OS/X. They have third parties. Sep 06 20:40
PetoKraus no, it’s prevalent in windows Sep 06 20:41
schestowitz Guidelines are best obeyed and /controlled/ by the vendor controlling the platform and selling it. Sep 06 20:41
PetoKraus though one thing is really missing from “linux desktop” Sep 06 20:42
PetoKraus clipboard working between qt and gtk apps, and terminal window, and, say, mozilla developed apps. Sep 06 20:42
Goldenear button placement in gnome is the same than in OS X Sep 06 20:43
schestowitz OS X is golden standard? Sep 06 20:43
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Goldenear nop, neither windows ;) Sep 06 20:44
benJIman Putting the buttons in a different order to that 95% of users are trained to using is silly. Sep 06 20:44
benJIman Not to mention that humans read English left to right. Sep 06 20:44
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Goldenear I don’t see anything wrong with the buttun placement in gnome, and I reade left to right…. Sep 06 20:47
Goldenear but it’s just a question of tastes I guess :) Sep 06 20:47
schestowitz Like driving Sep 06 20:49
Goldenear lol Sep 06 20:50
Goldenear exactly :) Sep 06 20:50
schestowitz No right or wrong, unless it’s defined by consistency, which changes across lands (or platforms) Sep 06 20:52
benJIman Well KDE will change button order depending on what style you choose. GNOME doesn’t provide a facility to do this. Sep 06 20:54
benJIman If using GNOME style or KDE apps in GNOME they will use the GNOME button order. Sep 06 20:54
benJIman GNOME apps just wrong in kde. Sep 06 20:54
MinceR imo the button order the GNOME HIG prescribes is dumb. Sep 06 20:55
Goldenear then so it is in os X Sep 06 20:56
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MinceR osx being retarded is not news :> Sep 06 21:32
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MinceR confirmed, the osx button order is the same retarded one. Sep 06 21:41
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schestowitz Screenie? Sep 06 21:47
MinceR http://developer.apple.com/documen… Sep 06 21:48
schestowitz It looks right to me. Sep 06 21:49
MinceR i find it annoying. Sep 06 21:51
schestowitz Castle uv’ Jobs prescribes pixel separation between buttons. Or else! Sep 06 21:51
MinceR i could care less about pixel separation (except that it shouldn’t really be measured in pixels…) Sep 06 21:52
MinceR putting cancel to the left of ok is what annoys me Sep 06 21:53
schestowitz It seems natural to me based on habit (I haven’t used anything but KDE and GNOME for many years). Sep 06 21:56
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MinceR perhaps the retards at crapple haven’t realized yet that most writing systems go from left to right Sep 06 21:58
MinceR and that people normally want to execute the action they initiate Sep 06 21:59
schestowitz I dunno. How’s cancel/allow sorted? Sep 06 22:00
MinceR i haven’t seen that dialog Sep 06 22:00
schestowitz Mouse practice: http://www.egg-attack.com/ (context: http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/… ) Sep 06 22:00
MinceR i’ve only ever used vista once Sep 06 22:00
MinceR even that one time it failed horribly at unmounting an usb storage device Sep 06 22:01
MinceR we had to shut the damn thing down Sep 06 22:01
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neighborlee my friend has vista, and only now with 4 gigs of ram does he find it liveable….I tried it and man was it a monstrosity Sep 06 22:08
schestowitz DRM sucks…. CPU and RAM. Sep 06 22:09
schestowitz But the issues go beyond a DRM-riddles codebase, which they can’t remove now. Sep 06 22:10
schestowitz *riddled Sep 06 22:10
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kentma schestowitz: I think all is well again at the server side Sep 06 22:29
schestowitz kentma: I’ll post soon. Just been disracted lately. Sep 06 22:30
kentma schestowitz: good, really – I’ve had a few problems :-) Sep 06 22:30
schestowitz What do you mean? Sep 06 22:31
kentma failing disks – I’ve been zeroing blocks to force the disks to re-assign – and this is in a raid array…  irritating Sep 06 22:31
schestowitz Thankfully I haven’t had any issues accessing old posts. It must be ruining your weekend. Sep 06 22:38
Goldenear schestowitz: I found that about you : http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2008/08/i… Sep 06 22:45
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schestowitz I beg to differ. Sep 06 22:51
Goldenear lol Sep 06 22:52
Goldenear what I understand now is that fear about mono is due to hate against MS… mono as based on a MS technology is seen as a devil stuff Sep 06 22:53
Goldenear If mono really wants to clone .NET, then it’s a bad idea Sep 06 22:53
Goldenear if mono mostly focus on GTK# and other things not directly MS related it could be fine Sep 06 22:54
Goldenear also let see what Vala will do Sep 06 22:54
Goldenear it may change somethings about linux distros installing mono by default Sep 06 22:56
schestowitz Can you elaborate on ” hate against MS”? Sep 06 22:56
schestowitz [H]omer spoke about this label the other day (“hate”). This is about risk, not hate. Microsoft is the only company (other than SCO) that threatens GNU/Linux. Sep 06 22:57
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Goldenear Hate against their commercial politics Sep 06 23:03
Goldenear Hate againt the state of mind of MS CEO Sep 06 23:03
schestowitz That da!! Sep 06 23:03
Goldenear (I share all of this) Sep 06 23:04
schestowitz Oops. Ignore me. Sep 06 23:04
schestowitz Just seen something scary. Sep 06 23:04
Goldenear what ? MS CEO ? Sep 06 23:04
Goldenear lol Sep 06 23:04
schestowitz No, I can’t understand something. Sep 06 23:05
schestowitz I’ve just watched AWStats. Sep 06 23:05
schestowitz I says 28,000+ pageviews (excluding search engines) 0AM-7PM, but I can’t figure out where it comes from. Sep 06 23:06
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benJIman How many requests do you have in an average day, including feed requests? Sep 06 23:10
schestowitz I don’t know. It depends on how it’s counted. Sep 06 23:12
benJIman Number of files requested. Sep 06 23:12
schestowitz But anyway, it seems like people just read more. I can’t figure out what caused it. Sep 06 23:12
schestowitz About 50,000 I think. Let me check. Sep 06 23:13
schestowitz 66,000 on average Sep 06 23:13
benJIman Over 1/3 of planetsuse, impressive. Sep 06 23:13
benJIman That must use a fair amount of bandwidth considering you use images quite a bit. Sep 06 23:14
schestowitz The hosting account might need changed in a month or two because it grows. Shane is hardly on the Internet, sadly. Sep 06 23:15
schestowitz The luv is here: http://www.tuxmachines.org/stats/index.html Sep 06 23:16
benJIman What do you mean? Sep 06 23:16
schestowitz About Shane or Susan’s site? Sep 06 23:17
benJIman Why was susan’s relevant? Sep 06 23:17
schestowitz It declined this summer, but she’s hugely popular and also one of my favourite news sources. Sep 06 23:18
benJIman I suspect susan doesn’t read the planets either, she misses out on lots of things on the planets – like you do. Sep 06 23:19
schestowitz Yes, probably. Sep 06 23:19
benJIman She ususally posts a lot of blogs from random people with a few lines of content and misses the interesting developer blogs with actual content. Sep 06 23:21
schestowitz Well, she /does/  covers a lot of OpenSUSE, which she likes. Sep 06 23:21
benJIman Not really. Sep 06 23:21
benJIman It’s usually “I installed openSUSE. [end of blog]“ Sep 06 23:22
benJIman She really doesn’t link anything from planetsuse unless it’s linked on opensuse news. Sep 06 23:22
schestowitz That too. It still goes deeper than LXer, LinuxToday and other aggregators. Sep 06 23:23
benJIman Best off subscribing to planet{kde,gnome,fedora,ubuntu,debian,suse} etc if you want interesting content. Sep 06 23:24
benJIman Hardly any of it hits any of the aggregators. Sep 06 23:25
benJIman The mono planet is called monologue btw. Sep 06 23:25
schestowitz Mono. Mono!! Mono!!! No, thanks. :-) Sep 06 23:26
benJIman http://www.go-mono.com/monologue/ It’s quite interesting quite often. Sep 06 23:26
benJIman Although most of them seem to develop on vista. Sep 06 23:26
schestowitz Yes, because Novell isn’t a believer in the Linux desktop,remember? Sep 06 23:27
benJIman There are a lot of people there not employed by Novell, probably the majority. Sep 06 23:28
benJIman The posts from the IKVM (java on .net) person are particularly interesting. Sep 06 23:28
schestowitz This is big: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2… Sep 06 23:29
schestowitz Context: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/20/ca…/a> Sep 06 23:33
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