04.04.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 3rd, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:24 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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DaemonFC what do you expect? Apr 03 12:10
DaemonFC They elected John Howard how many times? Apr 03 12:11
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 12:11
DaemonFC they want to say the US is screwed up Apr 03 12:11
DaemonFC we were smart enough to term limit Apr 03 12:11
DaemonFC B-) Apr 03 12:11
mattparry roy, I think that you should kick everone who has not posted in the last 1/2 hour Apr 03 12:12
DaemonFC the qualifications for Australian Prime Minister are a pulse and repackaging the same lies every election Apr 03 12:12
DaemonFC lol Apr 03 12:12
DaemonFC they have no freedom of speech or expression Apr 03 12:13
DaemonFC their internet is about to be censored Apr 03 12:13
DaemonFC just like Iran’s Apr 03 12:13
MinceR most countries are screwed up in many ways Apr 03 12:13
DaemonFC what is there to say about Australia? Apr 03 12:13
DaemonFC seriously? Apr 03 12:13
MinceR i thought they recently realized internet censorship is bad and were moving out of it? Apr 03 12:14
DaemonFC at least the US government could never be that bold about censoring free expression Apr 03 12:14
DaemonFC it’s unconstitutional Apr 03 12:14
DaemonFC and there’s no denying it Apr 03 12:14
DaemonFC it’s nice that the system works sometimes Apr 03 12:15
mattparry ok ttfn!! Apr 03 12:16
*mattparry has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Apr 03 12:17
oiaohm schestowitz: It will be interesting to see if the TPM artical gets any reponses. Apr 03 12:17
DaemonFC MinceR: Of course I find it amusing that the people in Australia put up with what they do Apr 03 12:17
DaemonFC they deserve it for electign and re-electing those politicians Apr 03 12:17
oiaohm You really need to look at the Australian voting system its kinda rigged. Apr 03 12:18
DaemonFC here you use online tax software and it’s free Apr 03 12:18
MinceR they probably have a minority that suffers for these choices made by the majority Apr 03 12:18
DaemonFC you can use any OS you wany Apr 03 12:18
MinceR just like i suffer in hungary Apr 03 12:18
DaemonFC *want Apr 03 12:18
DaemonFC if you have a vote that counts jsut as much as anyones Apr 03 12:19
DaemonFC then you have a fairly elected government Apr 03 12:19
MinceR so the saying that “every country deserves its government” holds in general, but not for each individual Apr 03 12:19
oiaohm Problem here is we have prefence voting. Apr 03 12:19
DaemonFC and nobody is to blame but the people of your country Apr 03 12:19
oiaohm So the person who gets the most votes might not get the seat due to the way preferences work out. Apr 03 12:20
DaemonFC oiaohm: That’s not a bad thing really Apr 03 12:20
DaemonFC here we get two parties Apr 03 12:20
DaemonFC and they’re both crooks Apr 03 12:20
oiaohm It is when you have 3 parties Apr 03 12:20
oiaohm And two are the same. Apr 03 12:20
MinceR sadly, we’re moving to the “two parties, both crooks” model here, too Apr 03 12:20
oiaohm Any new party that trys to get up here will be put last on preferences. Apr 03 12:21
oiaohm Preferences is a really destructive system. Apr 03 12:21
DaemonFC there’s a lot of parties, but people will go with the Democrats (catch all liberal) or Republicans (catch all regressives/religious loonies/big business) Apr 03 12:21
DaemonFC and they’re both just different kinds of bad Apr 03 12:21
oiaohm We don’t have a lot of parties here. Apr 03 12:22
oiaohm We have 4.  (Lib Nat)basically the same.  Labor and green. Apr 03 12:22
oiaohm libreral and Nat are so the same they don’t even bother having different policies. Apr 03 12:23
DaemonFC that’s funny Apr 03 12:23
DaemonFC but they still run candidates against the other? Apr 03 12:23
oiaohm Greens don’t compete in every seat. Apr 03 12:23
oiaohm Yes they do run candidates against each othr DaemonFC Apr 03 12:23
oiaohm Means working as one they stuff up the perferences system. Apr 03 12:24
DaemonFC doesn’t that jsut split the vote and give the other bastards more of a chance? Apr 03 12:24
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 12:24
oiaohm Not with preferences. Apr 03 12:24
DaemonFC oh ,right Apr 03 12:24
oiaohm Reason why I say person should have to vote for 1 candate and 1 candate only. Apr 03 12:25
DaemonFC then you end up with our system Apr 03 12:25
oiaohm That might put the wrong person in but cannot be screwed with like agreements can. Apr 03 12:25
schestowitz Conficker zombie botnet drops to 3.5 million < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04… > Apr 03 12:25
DaemonFC oiaohm: I don’t even really look at who is on the ticket Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFC I just tell the machine I want all Democrats Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFC lol Apr 03 12:26
oiaohm Gets worse you only need to put 1 in a box and then the parties preferences get automatically applied. Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFC I push one button and vote for like a dozen people I don’t know Apr 03 12:26
oiaohm So a lot of people here are not aware that the preference system is even in effect. Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFC *and* Obama Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFC yay Apr 03 12:26
DaemonFC it doesn’t matter if I can’t stand the Democrat running for that office Apr 03 12:27
DaemonFC my only other choice is a Republican who should probably be shot Apr 03 12:27
DaemonFC so what the hell? Apr 03 12:27
DaemonFC B-) Apr 03 12:27
DaemonFC so voting in American elections is just a recurring feud Apr 03 12:28
DaemonFC I vote for whoever is wearing my team’s jacket Apr 03 12:29
DaemonFC and come back in another 2 years Apr 03 12:29
oiaohm Everyone here has to vote. Apr 03 12:30
DaemonFC yeah, that’s funny Apr 03 12:30
DaemonFC I don’t want everyone to have to vote Apr 03 12:30
DaemonFC if you’re not motivated to get up and go vote Apr 03 12:30
DaemonFC you made your choice Apr 03 12:30
DaemonFC :P Apr 03 12:30
DaemonFC actually, what’s wrong is that we’ve let the biggest business of all tell people who to vote for Apr 03 12:32
oiaohm Tried that. Apr 03 12:32
DaemonFC the Christian church Apr 03 12:32
oiaohm Australians one complete area did not vote at all. Apr 03 12:32
DaemonFC they take billions of dollars Apr 03 12:33
DaemonFC pay no taxes Apr 03 12:33
MinceR yes, cults are another can of worms Apr 03 12:33
DaemonFC and control hundreds of millions of Americans minds Apr 03 12:33
oiaohm Basically here in australia if its not required to vote basically will not happen. Apr 03 12:33
oiaohm In many areas. Apr 03 12:33
oiaohm Who is going to travel 150 kms just to vote. Apr 03 12:33
DaemonFC I always vote even if I know it won’t do any good Apr 03 12:34
DaemonFC if there’s no Democrat running, I vote Libertarian Apr 03 12:34
DaemonFC if no Libertarian, I vote a write in Apr 03 12:35
oiaohm How far do you have to go to vote. Apr 03 12:35
DaemonFC if there’s nothing but a Republican Apr 03 12:35
oiaohm this is the problem here. Apr 03 12:35
DaemonFC I leave that one blank Apr 03 12:35
DaemonFC oh, I just walked a couple blocks Apr 03 12:35
DaemonFC to the courthouse Apr 03 12:35
oiaohm Exactly simple. Apr 03 12:36
*tacone (n=tacone@93-32-186-60.ip34.fastwebnet.it) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 12:36
tacone good afternoon. Apr 03 12:36
oiaohm Some of our areas that people have to center point vote in is over 400 km across DaemonFC Apr 03 12:36
oiaohm Hi tacone Apr 03 12:36
DaemonFC damn Apr 03 12:37
DaemonFC no mail-in ballots? Apr 03 12:37
oiaohm They restrict use of them. Apr 03 12:37
oiaohm So if you had to go 200 km to vote each year would you be as likely to do it DaemonFC Apr 03 12:38
DaemonFC probably not Apr 03 12:38
oiaohm That is the problem here and some of the large areas without law they just would not vote that simple. Apr 03 12:38
oiaohm So you would have a seat with no one voted in. Apr 03 12:38
oiaohm That kinda causes all kinds of problems. Apr 03 12:39
MinceR it has a certain charm :> Apr 03 12:39
oiaohm Particularly the last time when it was the blance of power. Apr 03 12:39
schestowitz Google might buy Twitter: http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/200… Todd Bishop already talks about it. It would be more valuable than Digg. Apr 03 12:39
oiaohm Nice nasty delock problem DaemonFC Apr 03 12:40
DaemonFC anyway MinceR: The problem with XFS, the _only_ problem it has ever given me Apr 03 12:41
DaemonFC it’s horrendously slow when deleting thousands of small files Apr 03 12:41
DaemonFC otherwise, great file system Apr 03 12:41
MinceR well then you were lucky with it Apr 03 12:41
oiaohm I have had to data recover xfs Apr 03 12:41
oiaohm a few times Apr 03 12:41
MinceR iirc Andrew Morton said that it actually wouldn’t be too difficult to implement data journaling for XFS and they might do it someday Apr 03 12:41
oiaohm NTFS is almost 1 a month. Apr 03 12:41
DaemonFC it can take XFS minutes to delete a kernel source folder Apr 03 12:42
DaemonFC takes Ext4 like 3 seconds Apr 03 12:42
DaemonFC no, not kidding Apr 03 12:42
tacone Novell is getting such a bad rap this days Apr 03 12:42
MinceR all fs-es have their strong and weak points Apr 03 12:42
tacone s/this/these Apr 03 12:42
MinceR tacone: well deserved Apr 03 12:42
oiaohm Novell wrap sheet for doing wrong is long. Apr 03 12:42
tacone is there anything they can do to recover ? even their ceo is so sorry about that. Apr 03 12:42
DaemonFC MinceR: YOu still never answered Apr 03 12:42
DaemonFC if Red Hat and Novell disappeared, and with them, half the work on the Linux kernel Apr 03 12:43
oiaohm Novell used the law to destroy SCO tacone Apr 03 12:43
DaemonFC what would be next? Apr 03 12:43
DaemonFC is that a good thing? Apr 03 12:43
tacone oiaohm: so ? Apr 03 12:43
MinceR DaemonFC: you mean, half the code of the kernel magically disappeared? Apr 03 12:43
MinceR DaemonFC: we’d rewrite it Apr 03 12:43
tacone was SCO a good thing ? Apr 03 12:43
MinceR things like that get rewritten eventually anyway Apr 03 12:43
oiaohm Novell did the contract that tricked SCO into thinking they owned UNIX. Apr 03 12:43
DaemonFC no, I mean all of a sudden, several HUNDRED kernel developers could no longer work on it Apr 03 12:43
DaemonFC what would happen? Apr 03 12:43
MinceR DaemonFC: others would continue the work Apr 03 12:44
oiaohm So the complete SCO mess was started and ended by Novell. Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFC otheres where? Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFC from a company? Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFC which one? Apr 03 12:44
tacone instead it was SCO to be owned  :-) Apr 03 12:44
MinceR DaemonFC: and it would still be developed much faster than other kernels in the world Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFC no, Linux would fade away Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFC if not for companies that work on it Apr 03 12:44
oiaohm SCO is not even the first company Novell has done that to. Apr 03 12:44
MinceR DaemonFC: which company did Linus work for when he started the kernel? Apr 03 12:44
DaemonFC today 76% of the kernel contributions come from paid software programmers Apr 03 12:45
DaemonFC working for a company Apr 03 12:45
MinceR and from that 76% percent you deduce that nobody would work on it Apr 03 12:45
MinceR brilliant Apr 03 12:45
DaemonFC so you mean to say that with 24% of the current developers that Linux would thrive? Apr 03 12:45
MinceR yes, it would Apr 03 12:45
MinceR and it would get more developers Apr 03 12:45
DaemonFC without companies, Linux would not be where it is Apr 03 12:46
DaemonFC Intel and AMD write drivers and firmwares for their boards and CPUs Apr 03 12:46
DaemonFC what of that? Apr 03 12:46
MinceR and without certain companies you admire so much it wouldn’t be threatened the way it is Apr 03 12:46
DaemonFC well, you wouldn’t have Linux if not for them Apr 03 12:46
MinceR DaemonFC: i think it’s reasonable to expect hw vendors to write drivers for their stuff Apr 03 12:46
DaemonFC so be grateful they gave it to you Apr 03 12:47
MinceR how else do you think those driver cd-s for hw with windows drivers on them appear? Apr 03 12:47
MinceR do they grow on trees or something? Apr 03 12:47
MinceR DaemonFC: novell didn’t give linux to me Apr 03 12:47
DaemonFC Intel and AMD have no reason to care if your desktop works with Linux Apr 03 12:47
MinceR they have more reason to care now than they did when they started supporting it Apr 03 12:47
DaemonFC except that they compete with each other Apr 03 12:47
DaemonFC if they only made drivers for Windows, you would use Windows Apr 03 12:48
DaemonFC you would have to Apr 03 12:48
MinceR or i would use other hw Apr 03 12:48
MinceR or i would write the drivers myself Apr 03 12:48
MinceR and i’d curse them for not doing it, rightly Apr 03 12:48
MinceR or an independent programmer would do it Apr 03 12:48
DaemonFC you don’t have the resources they do Apr 03 12:48
DaemonFC Linux could never thrive without commercial support Apr 03 12:49
oiaohm http://lwn.net/Articles/324046/  IBM and Novell not that big of numbers in the overall picture. Apr 03 12:49
MinceR it’s funny how you keep claim things are impossible that have happened many times already Apr 03 12:49
MinceR s/laim/laiming/ Apr 03 12:49
DaemonFC it would still be a broken mish mash of half implemented stuff that worked if you were lucky Apr 03 12:49
MinceR DaemonFC: stop reiterating the same false crap over and over again, it’s boring Apr 03 12:49
MinceR you’re like a stuck record Apr 03 12:49
oiaohm Linux developers number in the thousands per release. Apr 03 12:49
DaemonFC yeah, that would be a hundred or so Apr 03 12:50
DaemonFC if no commercial support Apr 03 12:50
oiaohm Loss of 1000 developers is not project destroying. Apr 03 12:50
oiaohm Ok for the Linux kernel. Apr 03 12:50
oiaohm Thinking there are over 1000 without any company support. Apr 03 12:50
DaemonFC GNU HURD is what you get with a community project Apr 03 12:50
DaemonFC 25 years old and doesn’t work Apr 03 12:50
MinceR no, GNU HURD is what you get with a very difficult project Apr 03 12:51
oiaohm HURD is a prick. Apr 03 12:51
MinceR tell me one successful microkernel Apr 03 12:51
MinceR one that really is a microkernel the way it’s used. Apr 03 12:51
DaemonFC MINIX could be Apr 03 12:51
MinceR _could_ Apr 03 12:51
oiaohm Hurd problem is crash loops. Apr 03 12:51
DaemonFC but doesn’t get the love Apr 03 12:51
MinceR it isn’t. Apr 03 12:51
DaemonFC MINIX is a hell of a lot better example than HURD Apr 03 12:51
DaemonFC at least MINIX works Apr 03 12:51
oiaohm So by the time you know you have a problem you don’t have the data that set off loop. Apr 03 12:51
MinceR i know, it isn’t GNU so it must be perfect. Apr 03 12:52
*MinceR yawns Apr 03 12:52
oiaohm Minix logs crashes clearly. Apr 03 12:52
DaemonFC the GNU people are hippies Apr 03 12:52
oiaohm HURD does not. Apr 03 12:52
DaemonFC complete with UNIX beards Apr 03 12:52
DaemonFC and that dazed Acid look Apr 03 12:52
MinceR DaemonFC: and communists! Apr 03 12:52
MinceR DaemonFC: so why don’t you go back to your all-american microsoft products already? Apr 03 12:52
MinceR they’re so great and you admire m$ so much… Apr 03 12:53
oiaohm Linux did not have commerical support for all its life. Apr 03 12:53
DaemonFC most work on Linux happens here too Apr 03 12:53
DaemonFC so it’s good Apr 03 12:53
DaemonFC ;) Apr 03 12:53
oiaohm You have to cross a threshold to get commerial support. Apr 03 12:53
oiaohm Ie where the code can make profit. Apr 03 12:53
DaemonFC Red Hat Apr 03 12:54
DaemonFC Red Hat has been around a long time Apr 03 12:54
oiaohm One of the first commericals Apr 03 12:54
MinceR and they seem to be turning evil now. Apr 03 12:54
oiaohm Loss of them would be a far large problem than Novell. Apr 03 12:54
MinceR well, not so recently actually Apr 03 12:54
DaemonFC they were really the only Linux worth giving a second look at Apr 03 12:54
DaemonFC til about 2004 Apr 03 12:54
MinceR more personal opinions. Apr 03 12:55
DaemonFC hehe Apr 03 12:55
DaemonFC not really Apr 03 12:55
DaemonFC Debian has always been a broken mess Apr 03 12:55
MinceR and red hat hasn’t. Apr 03 12:55
DaemonFC Red Hat has generally worked Apr 03 12:55
MinceR lol Apr 03 12:55
DaemonFC and given you someone to call if it didn’t Apr 03 12:55
MinceR lol Apr 03 12:56
DaemonFC that’s like the anti-Debian Apr 03 12:56
MinceR you’re hilarious Apr 03 12:56
DaemonFC Seriously, Debian is like the crappiest distribution there ever has been Apr 03 12:56
oiaohm There is way worse than Debian Apr 03 12:56
DaemonFC if any software is under active development, it may change and is unfit for Debian Apr 03 12:56
DaemonFC oh you can TRY and use Testing, but that’s still not guaranteed to be new stuff Apr 03 12:57
DaemonFC and there are bugs Apr 03 12:57
*tacone (n=tacone@93-32-186-60.ip34.fastwebnet.it) has left #boycottnovell (“ERROR: crap-talking overflow – Aborting.”) Apr 03 12:57
oiaohm Debian Testing is still way safter than Fedora. Apr 03 12:57
DaemonFC that’s what I meant by Ubuntu has made a credible Debian-like distro Apr 03 12:57
oiaohm The complete distribution model is wrong. Apr 03 12:58
oiaohm The idea that a release has to contain all stuff from the same time frame. Apr 03 12:58
DaemonFC Debian is suitable for maybe a server or a workstation, but completely inappropriate for multimedia, gaming, cool stuff Apr 03 12:58
oiaohm Is bassically wrong.  Don’t care if more stable and safer stuff has been release we sticking with what as released in that time frame. Apr 03 12:59
oiaohm Ubuntu is just as gulity of it. Apr 03 12:59
DaemonFC it is not an OS you want on your desktop Apr 03 12:59
oiaohm I use debian as my desktop. Apr 03 12:59
oiaohm Because I want stablity. Apr 03 12:59
DaemonFC my condolences Apr 03 12:59
oiaohm I have had way less problems with it than ubuntus. Apr 03 12:59
oiaohm Or fedoras Apr 03 12:59
DaemonFC then their compiler in stable gets so old that new kernels refuse to build with it Apr 03 13:00
DaemonFC lol Apr 03 13:00
oiaohm Come on who is the mad buggers in them who thinks pulseaudio is good. Apr 03 13:00
DaemonFC I use Pulseaudio Apr 03 13:00
oiaohm Sorry that is not true. Apr 03 13:00
oiaohm I build 2.6.29 with default debian complier. Apr 03 13:00
DaemonFC you can remove the blacklisting Apr 03 13:00
DaemonFC but that’s not a good idea Apr 03 13:00
DaemonFC 2.6.29 won’t build with 4.1 or earlier Apr 03 13:01
MinceR what do you recommend for audio over network? :> Apr 03 13:01
oiaohm Pulseaudio has many creative ways to stuff up. Apr 03 13:01
DaemonFC I’m using Pulseaudio 0.9.15 with timer-based settings Apr 03 13:01
DaemonFC not interrupt-based Apr 03 13:01
oiaohm That can screw up. Apr 03 13:01
DaemonFC not on my kernel Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFC hehee Apr 03 13:02
oiaohm kernel is not  the issue. Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFC yeah Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFC it is Apr 03 13:02
oiaohm Pulseaudio screws it self up. Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFC no Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFC kernel settings Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFC it fucks up with dynamic ticks Apr 03 13:02
oiaohm Wine + Pulseaudio + right applications. Apr 03 13:02
DaemonFC royally Apr 03 13:02
oiaohm Is dead man walking. Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFC ryan@ryan-desktop:~$ uname -a Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFC Linux ryan-desktop 2.6.29-git9-ryan1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Wed Apr 1 21:20:36 EDT 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux Apr 03 13:03
oiaohm Yep even with that kind of combination. Apr 03 13:03
MinceR so DaemonFC is basically saying pulseaudio is good except it fucks up with dynamic ticks Apr 03 13:03
MinceR i’d say then it isn’t good. :> Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFC dynamic ticks is fucking stupid Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFC on a desktop Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 13:03
MinceR yes, and consuming low power is fucking stupid too Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFC pardon my french Apr 03 13:03
oiaohm Userspace audio is stupid too. Apr 03 13:03
DaemonFC the PSU uses about as much either way Apr 03 13:04
DaemonFC so you save nothing Apr 03 13:04
MinceR mixing in userspace isn’t necessarily stupid Apr 03 13:04
MinceR DaemonFC: depends on the PSU Apr 03 13:04
DaemonFC if you’re on a battery (laptop) dynamic ticks makes sense Apr 03 13:04
*MinceR is on a laptop Apr 03 13:04
oiaohm Pulseaudio has more problems than just dynamic ticks. Apr 03 13:04
DaemonFC well you go Apr 03 13:04
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 13:04
oiaohm It hates hybernation as well. Apr 03 13:04
MinceR also, your PSU isn’t going to waste less just because your CPU is crunching away. Apr 03 13:04
MinceR and then we didn’t even mention virtualized systems :> Apr 03 13:05
amarsh04 I’ve transcoded video, and burned dvd’s based on transcoded data that played fine on convention dvd players using Debian unstable with www.debian-multimedia.org repositories on this PII-266 Apr 03 13:05
DaemonFC Dynamic Ticks off, HZ=1000, CONFIG_PREEMPT=Y, preemptible RCU Apr 03 13:05
oiaohm Do you know the one problem with CONFIG_PREEMPT Apr 03 13:05
DaemonFC nope Apr 03 13:05
DaemonFC used it for years Apr 03 13:06
oiaohm You can screw X11 up from time to time because CPU time does not get to it. Apr 03 13:06
oiaohm Basically put enough load on pulseaudio and cry. Apr 03 13:06
DaemonFC http://pastebin.com/d16b7d606 Apr 03 13:07
DaemonFC have fun B-) Apr 03 13:07
MinceR isn’t preempting about interrupting kernel code? Apr 03 13:07
*amarsh04 doesn’t use pulseaudio, but does have CONFIG_PREEMPT=y Apr 03 13:07
oiaohm It about over riding BKL. Apr 03 13:07
oiaohm There are sometimes you should not do that. Apr 03 13:08
DaemonFC CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=y Apr 03 13:08
DaemonFC don’t forget that Apr 03 13:08
DaemonFC B-) Apr 03 13:08
oiaohm DaemonFC: I have run on those kinds of combinations. Apr 03 13:08
oiaohm they don’t save you from quite a few glitchs pulseaudio has. Apr 03 13:09
oiaohm pulseaudio is also a very old school design. Apr 03 13:09
DaemonFC # CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set # CONFIG_EXT3_FS is not set # CONFIG_REISERFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_JFS_FS is not set # CONFIG_XFS_FS is not set Apr 03 13:09
DaemonFC lol Apr 03 13:09
oiaohm Its going to cause major problems as containers in the Linux kernel gets more developed. Apr 03 13:10
DaemonFC CONFIG_EXT4_FS=y Apr 03 13:10
oiaohm Containers allow applications to be suspended 1 at a time. Apr 03 13:10
oiaohm Unless they are hooked to something like pulseaudio. Apr 03 13:10
oiaohm So everything hooked to pulseaudio will have to be supended at once. Apr 03 13:10
oiaohm Note DRI2 X11 provides the tech to avoid that problem from containers for X11. Apr 03 13:11
oiaohm There is no place in modern OS design for a item Like pulseaudio. Apr 03 13:11
MinceR there would be place for a network-transparent sound server Apr 03 13:12
DaemonFC I’m sure that’s why they’re making Pulseaudio Apr 03 13:12
DaemonFC cause they want to finish with a product that’s obsolete Apr 03 13:12
DaemonFC right off the bat Apr 03 13:12
DaemonFC B-) Apr 03 13:12
DaemonFC /sarcasm Apr 03 13:12
oiaohm Lets list what containers have.  Means to transfer applications from machine to machine over network. Apr 03 13:13
oiaohm Means to hibernate applications. Apr 03 13:13
oiaohm Means to control access to most resources bar audio so far. Apr 03 13:13
oiaohm Cluster filesystems are used with containers to make network movement simpler. Apr 03 13:14
oiaohm Basically audio should be done as a OS kernel container. Apr 03 13:14
oiaohm Not as a sound server. Apr 03 13:14
oiaohm To make sure audio setting data and ques and the like can travel with applications when transfered. Apr 03 13:15
oiaohm or suspended. Apr 03 13:15
oiaohm Basically pulseaudio is old school the last in the line of a long line of sound servers that have failed. Apr 03 13:15
oiaohm And they are expecting out come to be different this time. Apr 03 13:16
MinceR will that work over the network? Apr 03 13:16
oiaohm To completely work over a network in every way you need containers anyhow MinceR Apr 03 13:17
oiaohm What is the point of having a audio application stutter when another machine near you does not have load. Apr 03 13:17
MinceR i can give the sound server more priority if that’s a problem Apr 03 13:17
oiaohm Full network support need to include if required moving the application over network as well as transfering sound. Apr 03 13:17
oiaohm If you have a application from server outputing sound on a client. Apr 03 13:18
oiaohm server has load  client has none.  why the hell would you keep on running the application on the server. Apr 03 13:18
oiaohm Only reason is that you cannot transfer it. Apr 03 13:18
oiaohm The problem with pulseaudio it blocks transfering of applications. Apr 03 13:19
oiaohm Pulseaudio is designed old school before over network transfering of applications existed. Apr 03 13:20
DaemonFC Pulseaudio is transparent Apr 03 13:20
DaemonFC even stupid crap that asks for ALS or OSS gets Pulseaudio anyway Apr 03 13:20
oiaohm I am not talking about transparent DaemonFC Apr 03 13:20
DaemonFC and is not even aware Apr 03 13:20
oiaohm If you need transparnet you use gstreamer from an application developer point of view. Apr 03 13:21
oiaohm Pulseaudio is nothing more than a middle man not designed to do the required tasks. Apr 03 13:22
oiaohm Sending audio over network is only 1 part of the problem. Apr 03 13:22
oiaohm Sending applications over network is the other half. Apr 03 13:22
oiaohm Who would not like if there desktop could follow them from machine to machine. Apr 03 13:23
DaemonFC Pulseaudio handles mixing that ALSA is incapable of alone Apr 03 13:23
oiaohm Without stopping. Apr 03 13:23
DaemonFC ALSA by itself belongs in 1995 Apr 03 13:23
oiaohm Did I say ALSA was good enough for this job. Apr 03 13:24
oiaohm No I did not. Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFC Pulseaudio is a band aid Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFC masking some of ALSA’s pure shitness Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFC B-) Apr 03 13:24
oiaohm Mixing Pulseaudio does can be done in ALSA with 1 minor hack. Apr 03 13:24
oiaohm Storing information about audio volume in a cgroup. Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFC most Pulseaudio problems are caused by distributions Apr 03 13:24
oiaohm And replace dmix with something better. Apr 03 13:24
DaemonFC misconfiguring it Apr 03 13:24
oiaohm BULL. Apr 03 13:25
DaemonFC Ubuntu Hardy is a PRIME example Apr 03 13:25
oiaohm Most is caused by Pulseaudio trying to be a extrea middle layour. Apr 03 13:25
DaemonFC of dipshits tinkering with somethign they don’t understand Apr 03 13:25
oiaohm More layers you stack the more problems you have. Apr 03 13:25
oiaohm Its like xcb vs xlib. Apr 03 13:25
oiaohm xcb less layours between you and the x11 server. Apr 03 13:25
DaemonFC Das Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren musten keepen das cotten-pickenen hands in das pockets – relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights. Apr 03 13:26
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 13:26
oiaohm So runs nice and tidy on memory. Apr 03 13:26
oiaohm Pulseaudio cannot operate on top of dmix. Apr 03 13:26
oiaohm Due to dmix causing too much lag. Apr 03 13:26
DaemonFC Ubuntu’s developers are fucking idiots ran by a braindead bureaucracy Apr 03 13:26
DaemonFC it’s all in the details Apr 03 13:27
DaemonFC and they get those wrong Apr 03 13:27
oiaohm You cannot disable pulseaudio and use a lot of sound cards with wine due to no dmix. Apr 03 13:27
*MinceR suspects DaemonFC runs ubuntu Apr 03 13:27
oiaohm Basically pulseaudio does not work right all the time yet. Apr 03 13:27
oiaohm Yet it does not have a good fall back location. Apr 03 13:27
oiaohm Basically pulseaudio is picking on users. Apr 03 13:28
oiaohm Yelling at projects like wine that you must build pulseaudio drivers. Apr 03 13:28
DaemonFC MinceR: With a LOT of customizations to restore sanity to ALSA and the kernel Apr 03 13:28
DaemonFC I may as well just fork their shit Apr 03 13:28
DaemonFC fix it Apr 03 13:28
DaemonFC and host it Apr 03 13:28
oiaohm So a project like wine would have to maintain even more drivers. Apr 03 13:28
oiaohm So sound from them would be more usntable. Apr 03 13:29
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DaemonFC Wine is not all that great Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFC I have to use the OSS driver Apr 03 13:29
MinceR why do i get the feeling that DaemonFC finds the products he hates the most, made by the people he hates the most, uses them and then complains? :> Apr 03 13:29
oiaohm Only team at the moment with common sence in the audio group is gstreamer. Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFC cause it demands a particular version of ALSA libs Apr 03 13:29
oiaohm DaemonFC: Wine works perfectly fine with ALSA it self. Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFC or else it bitches and screams Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFC no it doesn’t Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFC unless you use the version it expects Apr 03 13:29
oiaohm Sorry it does. Apr 03 13:29
DaemonFC no, you only think it does Apr 03 13:30
oiaohm I am one of the support people for wine. Apr 03 13:30
oiaohm I know that section well. Apr 03 13:30
DaemonFC so riddle me this Apr 03 13:30
oiaohm Main reason pulseaudio does not work. Apr 03 13:30
MinceR riddle me that Apr 03 13:30
MinceR who’s afraid of a big black bat? Apr 03 13:30
DaemonFC err:module:load_builtin_dll failed to load .so lib for builtin L”winealsa.drv”: /usr/bin/../lib32/wine/winealsa.drv.so: symbol snd_pcm_forward, version ALSA_0.9.0rc8 not defined in file libasound.so.2 with link time reference Apr 03 13:30
oiaohm Yes Ubuntu user. Apr 03 13:31
oiaohm Someone enabled versioning. Apr 03 13:31
DaemonFC I’m using a newer ALSA lib Apr 03 13:31
oiaohm when it was built. Apr 03 13:31
DaemonFC than comes with Jaunty Apr 03 13:31
oiaohm Its not a feature of the wine source code it self. Apr 03 13:31
oiaohm Its a added build flag. Apr 03 13:31
DaemonFC see what I mean Apr 03 13:32
DaemonFC why version check? Apr 03 13:32
DaemonFC you know what your distro uses Apr 03 13:32
oiaohm Go choke the package maker. Apr 03 13:32
oiaohm He added a flag. Apr 03 13:32
oiaohm The flag means all symbols used by application are versioned. Apr 03 13:33
oiaohm Problem is ALSA does not version all there symbols. Apr 03 13:33
oiaohm Build the ALSA driver with versioned sysbols you cause that. Apr 03 13:33
DaemonFC I emailed Scott Ritchie Apr 03 13:35
oiaohm It bit like debian building openssl with random disabled DaemonFC Apr 03 13:35
DaemonFC heh Apr 03 13:35
DaemonFC that’s another act of blatant fucktardary on Debian’s part Apr 03 13:35
oiaohm Ubuntu coped Apr 03 13:35
oiaohm copied Apr 03 13:35
DaemonFC yeah, Ubuntu is basically a refork of Debian Unstable every 6 months Apr 03 13:36
DaemonFC not completely, but mainly Apr 03 13:36
oiaohm You would think checking important secuirty things would be wise when reforking. Apr 03 13:36
DaemonFC they aren’t smart enough Apr 03 13:36
DaemonFC they have an automatic repo clone utility Apr 03 13:37
oiaohm So human errors get missed. Apr 03 13:37
DaemonFC and some monkeys that know how to apply patches from Debian Apr 03 13:37
DaemonFC very few people at Ubuntu know their ass from next Tuesday Apr 03 13:37
DaemonFC and anyone that does gets hired by Red Hat Apr 03 13:37
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 13:38
oiaohm Debian is patch insane. Apr 03 13:38
oiaohm Lot of my debian has parts replaced. Apr 03 13:38
DaemonFC I can name one person in all of Ubuntu Apr 03 13:38
DaemonFC that is competent Apr 03 13:39
oiaohm We will not update. Apr 03 13:39
oiaohm We will patch. Apr 03 13:39
oiaohm Seams to be Debian and Ubuntu got it as well. Apr 03 13:39
DaemonFC Scott James Remnant Apr 03 13:39
DaemonFC he’s fairly bright Apr 03 13:39
oiaohm Scott still over patches. Apr 03 13:39
DaemonFC probably has a nice career at Red hat at some point Apr 03 13:39
oiaohm Past a particular point you should just upgrade that package. Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFC I know Apr 03 13:40
oiaohm Patch on top of Patch can create problems. Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFC I cringe when I see like “ubuntu9″ Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFC I’m thinking “You fucking idiots!” Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFC mmhm Apr 03 13:40
oiaohm So we agree on that point. Apr 03 13:40
DaemonFC they end up applying partial patches Apr 03 13:41
DaemonFC cause they depend on something that looks totally unrelated Apr 03 13:41
DaemonFC so they have to turn around and update that entire package again Apr 03 13:41
DaemonFC the next day Apr 03 13:41
DaemonFC B-) Apr 03 13:42
DaemonFC X Server in Ubuntu is particularly heinous about that Apr 03 13:42
oiaohm Its lack of understanding the point of no return. Apr 03 13:42
DaemonFC I won’t even update it anymore unless I have reason to give a shit Apr 03 13:42
oiaohm One something is altered so much you are basically forking it. Apr 03 13:43
DaemonFC cause I have to rebuild my fucking Nvidia driuver Apr 03 13:43
DaemonFC it’s unreasonable Apr 03 13:43
oiaohm So items like Nvidia drivers screw up with it. Apr 03 13:43
oiaohm How are they to know that 1.6.0,,,, is a hugely incompadible fork. Apr 03 13:44
DaemonFC if it upgrades xserver-xorg-core you need to remove and reinstall nvidia Apr 03 13:44
DaemonFC unless you’re using their module on their kernels Apr 03 13:44
DaemonFC :P Apr 03 13:44
oiaohm Also not updated as often as it should be. Apr 03 13:45
DaemonFC I had to edit the Nvidia kernel interface source Apr 03 13:45
DaemonFC to remove deprecated garbage Apr 03 13:45
DaemonFC that 2.6.29-git8 didn’t like Apr 03 13:45
oiaohm I also only run stable version kernels. Apr 03 13:46
oiaohm Ubuntu kernel is a fork off the main. Apr 03 13:46
DaemonFC I won’t run theirs Apr 03 13:47
DaemonFC unstable pile of shit Apr 03 13:47
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oiaohm Hmm ubuntu indepedant braches have not been touched since 2.6.26 Apr 03 13:52
oiaohm So they must have moved to taking from the front edge of the kernel without good testing. Apr 03 13:53
oiaohm Ubuntu alphas are as bad as Fedora diving. Apr 03 13:53
schestowitz Inquirer does TV now…  http://intruders.tv/inqtv/200… Apr 03 14:03
schestowitz Microsoft To Officially Become a Monopoly in Russia < http://profy.com/2009/04/02/mi… > Apr 03 14:07
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mib_ln72p7 hi all Apr 03 14:10
mib_ln72p7 please can someone help me with regards to not being able to open a file Apr 03 14:10
oiaohm Hi mib_ln72p7 Apr 03 14:10
schestowitz Microsoft and Novell work as one: http://tirania.org/blog/archi… Apr 03 14:11
schestowitz Maybe that’s what the “work as one” motto is about Apr 03 14:11
schestowitz Microsoft addicts developers to Windows and Novell addicts them to .NET and VS Apr 03 14:11
schestowitz mib_ln72p7: which file? Apr 03 14:11
*DaemonFC rewrites schestowitz in a combination of C# with portions of message passing VB.Net Apr 03 14:13
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 14:13
mib_ln72p7 well im currently at college and did a 4000 word assignment last night yet wen i tried to open the file, it says its corrupt (its a microsoft Word document) Apr 03 14:14
DaemonFC probably crashed before it got committed? Apr 03 14:14
mib_ln72p7 so would i be able to restore it? Apr 03 14:15
DaemonFC I think Microsoft had a doc repair utility at one point Apr 03 14:16
DaemonFC I really have no idea though Apr 03 14:16
mib_ln72p7 oh ok then Apr 03 14:16
mib_ln72p7 thanks Apr 03 14:16
DaemonFC I think it truncated the file Apr 03 14:17
DaemonFC so you could save at least some of it Apr 03 14:17
DaemonFC :) Apr 03 14:17
oiaohm try openoffice Apr 03 14:23
oiaohm Its more determined. Apr 03 14:23
oiaohm same with abiword. Apr 03 14:24
oiaohm They are more likely to open a part file than MS office. Apr 03 14:24
mib_ln72p7 well ive tried to use a file repair and all that but still no joy Apr 03 14:33
schestowitz What’s in the file? Did you e-mail it to anyone prior to Word breaking it? Apr 03 14:37
oiaohm At least you did not have what I fixed today. Apr 03 14:38
oiaohm A person laptop was pretending to be in fresh install state. Apr 03 14:39
oiaohm So yep everything gone. Apr 03 14:39
oiaohm Bar windows. Apr 03 14:39
schestowitz oiaohm: some comments on 2.6.30: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/… Apr 03 14:40
mib_ln72p7 erm no i didnt email it Apr 03 14:40
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schestowitz Microsoft is banged by two superpowers in one day: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/03/mi… Apr 03 14:50
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schestowitz mib_ln72p7: if you renamed the file or move it around (less likely), then there is a meager chance if it being somewhere on the disc (recoverable) Apr 03 14:51
schestowitz Oh, he left Apr 03 14:51
schestowitz Microsoft Office has shown its great strengths just now. Ruining people’s hard work and driving them to misery. Never happened to me with TeX or LyX in 8 years of use…. Apr 03 14:52
MinceR (offtopic) (java) (addictive) http://andyslife.org/ga… Apr 03 14:52
schestowitz In Soviet Russian, Microsoft fines Apr 03 14:53
schestowitz In Soviet Russian, Microsoft fines YOU Apr 03 14:53
schestowitz *Russia Apr 03 14:54
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iwmw is there soviet russia nowadays? Apr 03 14:58
schestowitz iwmw: it’s a joke Apr 03 15:00
schestowitz Reversal Apr 03 15:00
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R… Apr 03 15:01
schestowitz The US seems to be letting MS control national security: Senate Legislation Would Federalize Cybersecurity < http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/c… > Apr 03 15:01
schestowitz Here is the post which summarises how Microsoft inherited DHS: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/… Apr 03 15:02
iwmw in soviet russia m$ pays YOU Apr 03 15:03
iwmw ^that’s more likely Apr 03 15:04
oiaohm http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/03/…  Had to add a post TiVo-ization is more than just blocking root from editing stuff. Apr 03 15:04
oiaohm Normal selinux can do that. Apr 03 15:04
schestowitz “The MPAA says that box office attendance has been on the rise since the economy has tanked, with people looking to the “escape of the theater” to take their minds off more serious matters.” < http://arstechnica.com/media/news… > Apr 03 15:06
schestowitz Been a long time since we last discuses economics here. I spend time speaking about it face to face almost every day… Apr 03 15:06
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schestowitz I suffer from a common typo: /s/Russian/Russia/ Apr 03 15:23
schestowitz Microsoft Announces new Linux MVP < http://developingux.com/2009/04/01/mic… > Apr 03 15:28
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schestowitz Old article on the failure of security: http://www.securityabsurdity…. Apr 03 15:34
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schestowitz ASUS is still with GNU/Linux… this time on phones: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/… Apr 03 15:35
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schestowitz New ‘party line’: The Open Source Enterprise Trap < http://www.h-online.com/open/The-Open-Source-E… > Apr 03 15:42
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schestowitz US tells ships to clean up fumes or stay away < http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn… > Apr 03 15:43
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schestowitz Russia for Free software: http://neteffect.foreignpolicy.com/post… “While the rest of the world has been battling Bill Gates’ empire for almost two decades, it’s only now that Russia has waken up to the challenge and has placed the company on a government antitrust watchlist.” Apr 03 15:47
schestowitz http://www.computerworlduk.com/communit… “So that just leaves poor old MIDs as Moblin’s heartland. The fact that Moblin is moving to the Linux Foundation – not a bad move in itself – suggests to me that its sponsors have realised that things have moved on, and that Moblin has served its purpose of getting people thinking about this space.” Apr 03 15:49
schestowitz Is Moblin simply giving up to ARM/Linux and other embedded combos? Apr 03 15:49
zer0c00l user Open source software and open standards for IT based health reforms http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/03/… Apr 03 15:50
schestowitz Nice way of tracking politicians: http://ouseful.wordpress.com/200… Apr 03 15:51
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Omar87 Hi guys. Apr 03 15:54
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Omar87 I just HATE it when people talk to me about M$ as if it were the Lord of IT!!! >< Apr 03 15:55
Omar87 It aches me!! It friggin’ hurts me!! Apr 03 15:56
schestowitz You can walk away Apr 03 16:02
schestowitz Microsoft injured progress in computing, esp. on desktops Apr 03 16:02
schestowitz Predictable… when you sell Windows for $4: “Microsoft losing control of netbooks”  < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquire… > Apr 03 16:05
Omar87 schestowitz: I know, but it really hurts. Apr 03 16:07
schestowitz Apart from typos, look at the FUD thrown by NPD: “Return rates [on Linux netbooks] were pretty high and that’s why you don’t seem them any more,” Stephen Baker, vice president for industry analysis at NPD Techworld, told InternetNews.com. Apr 03 16:07
schestowitz http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news… This confirms NPD’s bais in favour of Microsoft. The return rates area actually the same based on ASUS and Dell. Apr 03 16:07
Omar87 schestowitz: If you ever come to Jordan, and listen to those Microsoft dolls yapping bull crap about MS, you’ll understand exactly what I’m talking about. Apr 03 16:08
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schestowitz We have enough of these”dolls” here. Apr 03 16:08
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schestowitz Just in: Shuttleworth: Vista 7 an Opportunity for Linux < http://www.internetnews.com/hardware/arti… > Apr 03 16:11
schestowitz It seems as though IBM will indeed be buying Sun and an announcement come within days. Apr 03 16:12
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Balrog yes, I’ve seen Apr 03 16:13
Balrog good or bad? Apr 03 16:13
jose schestowitz, i have a quick question ..trying to remember a particular quote from the ms exec ones Apr 03 16:14
schestowitz BBC headline: “Residents challenge Google camera” Compare to CNN: “Gang of villagers chase away Google car” Apr 03 16:14
iwmw is asus always linux compatible? Apr 03 16:15
iwmw i mean for desktops Apr 03 16:15
schestowitz Balrog: mostly bad, I think. Apr 03 16:15
schestowitz jose: how did the quote go? Apr 03 16:15
jose it’s where an exec says something to the effect “once we give away a patent right we can’t gain it back” Apr 03 16:15
schestowitz iwmw: yes, pretty much. Locked down though. They say ASUS’ new phone will come with full source code. Apr 03 16:16
iwmw nice Apr 03 16:16
schestowitz jose: I can’t recall such a quote Apr 03 16:16
schestowitz WHo said it? Apr 03 16:16
jose darn Apr 03 16:16
schestowitz One of the lawyers? Apr 03 16:16
schestowitz Microsoft has lots of them Apr 03 16:16
jose an exec i think Apr 03 16:16
schestowitz Microsoft just buys companies Apr 03 16:16
iwmw may be it’s the first phone that i will buy in 4-5 years Apr 03 16:16
schestowitz And then hires lawyers Apr 03 16:16
schestowitz And peripheral agencies to shill, e.g. Edelman, LawMedia, W-E… Apr 03 16:17
schestowitz iwmw: see http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/04… Apr 03 16:17
iwmw is skype opensourced? Apr 03 16:18
PetoKraus good joke Apr 03 16:19
jose schestowitz, i think this http://meandubuntu.wordpress.co… is ushimitsudoki’s websites and i saw it there.. let me check Apr 03 16:20
schestowitz jose: yes, it is Apr 03 16:20
*iwmw is obviously not buying a phone based on skype Apr 03 16:20
iwmw even though it’s linux Apr 03 16:20
schestowitz I want to go through it carefully at some stage. It has good picks Apr 03 16:20
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_Hicham_ Hi folks Apr 03 16:22
schestowitz Hi Apr 03 16:22
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schestowitz Conficker Conflunks < http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/… > Apr 03 16:24
schestowitz I.B.M. Reportedly Will Buy Rival Sun for $7 Billion < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/03/techno… > PS: Ashlee quit The Register, which sinks Apr 03 16:27
schestowitz April Fool’s for OLPC: http://www.olpcnews.com/countries/us… Apr 03 16:30
schestowitz The very latest on TomTom (it gets boringly repetitive): http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?st… Apr 03 16:31
schestowitz BoycottNovell traffic now exceeds 6.5GB/per day, on average. We outgrew Groklaw. Apr 03 16:36
PetoKraus right guys Apr 03 16:36
PetoKraus who knows how to start your own company Apr 03 16:36
PetoKraus in UK Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz To /start/? Apr 03 16:37
PetoKraus yeah Apr 03 16:37
PetoKraus i mean Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz Not a good time to start one Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz No VC Apr 03 16:37
PetoKraus what sort of legalese there is Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz No moneyflow Apr 03 16:37
PetoKraus VC? Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz Venture Capital Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz You couldn’t get investments to start it up Apr 03 16:37
PetoKraus don’t worry, we’re targeting good market Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz Or a loan from the bank even Apr 03 16:37
PetoKraus we don’t need much Apr 03 16:37
PetoKraus it’s supposed to be support team Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz And even if you set up a business, few people spend Apr 03 16:37
schestowitz Medicine is a strong area Apr 03 16:38
PetoKraus i mean something i do at work now Apr 03 16:38
schestowitz Chemisty too Apr 03 16:38
PetoKraus but just personal, between me and my workmate Apr 03 16:38
schestowitz because these are scarcely affected by a depression. People’s health can’t be curtailed. Apr 03 16:38
PetoKraus the idea is to provide help to people in the evenings Apr 03 16:38
PetoKraus target students Apr 03 16:38
PetoKraus low prices Apr 03 16:38
schestowitz That’s possible Apr 03 16:38
PetoKraus you get the thinking Apr 03 16:38
schestowitz Microsoft likes it when people do it for free Apr 03 16:38
schestowitz Suppoting Windows free of charge Apr 03 16:39
schestowitz Or even for pay Apr 03 16:39
PetoKraus well i am not microsoft Apr 03 16:39
schestowitz It’s a Big Scam Apr 03 16:39
PetoKraus so Apr 03 16:39
PetoKraus do you know what’s needed to set up something like this? Apr 03 16:39
schestowitz The scam is mentioned here about 1 hours into the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch… Apr 03 16:39
schestowitz PetoKraus: there’s a standard procedure Apr 03 16:39
PetoKraus yeah Apr 03 16:40
schestowitz you can’t find something on Google Apr 03 16:40
PetoKraus that’s what i’m looking for Apr 03 16:40
PetoKraus well, i don’t know what to look for Apr 03 16:40
schestowitz Depends on the coutnry, so try google.co.uk Apr 03 16:40
_Hicham_ schestowitz : we need IP Apr 03 16:40
_Hicham_ people have the right to gain some money from what they do Apr 03 16:40
schestowitz PetoKraus: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp… Apr 03 16:41
_Hicham_ but IP shouldn’t last more than 5 years Apr 03 16:41
schestowitz First few results seem appropriate Apr 03 16:41
schestowitz IP.. moving to IPv6 soon :-) Apr 03 16:41
schestowitz The other IP is fictionary Apr 03 16:41
schestowitz fictitious I mean Apr 03 16:41
schestowitz Bundle for separate laws. Apr 03 16:42
schestowitz “Bureau of Labor Statistics this morning, which reported that companies in the United States chopped 663,000 jobs from their payrolls in March, boosting the unemployment rate to 8.5 per cent.” http://www.channelregister.co.uk/20… Apr 03 16:42
schestowitz It’s a lie Apr 03 16:42
schestowitz The real unemployment would be around 14% (at least) Apr 03 16:42
_Hicham_ Europe predicts than unemployment rate will hit 20% Apr 03 16:43
schestowitz They count it differently for optimism. People who give up or whose time looking’expires’ don’t get counted. There are also unknown people who are left out from such surveys Apr 03 16:43
schestowitz uk’s real unemployment rate is a mystery Apr 03 16:43
schestowitz Like national debt Apr 03 16:43
schestowitz People are told lies Apr 03 16:43
schestowitz Yesterday at the gym this guy thought it would be *gap* over 100bn next year Apr 03 16:44
schestowitz Total unadulterated BS. It’s more like 2tr already Apr 03 16:44
schestowitz Real unemployment rate at three million, Tories claim  < http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news… > Apr 03 16:44
_Hicham_ that is liberal economy Apr 03 16:45
schestowitz Last Updated: 6:43PM BST 18 Sep 2008 (much worse now) Apr 03 16:45
_Hicham_ u have to deal with that Apr 03 16:45
_Hicham_ u can’t even do some protectionism now Apr 03 16:45
_Hicham_ coz it is old Apr 03 16:45
_Hicham_ so u can’t face China Apr 03 16:45
schestowitz “Chris Grayling, the party’s work and spokesman secretary, said that around 12.4 per cent of the workforce – nearly five million people – were “under-employed” because they could find only part-time work or were stuck on benefits.” Apr 03 16:45
schestowitz That was before the collapse of Wall Street and UK banks Apr 03 16:45
schestowitz Sept 30 (ish) Apr 03 16:46
_Hicham_ China’s products will kill Europe/US economy Apr 03 16:46
_Hicham_ and there is nothing to do about it Apr 03 16:46
schestowitz “Will”? Apr 03 16:46
schestowitz The US has been relying on Chinese merchanise for ages Apr 03 16:46
schestowitz Same here in the UK Apr 03 16:46
schestowitz Who do you think made the monitors that I use ATM? or the keyboard? Apr 03 16:47
_Hicham_ I am talking about other products Apr 03 16:47
_Hicham_ not tech products Apr 03 16:47
schestowitz The big mistakes is to characterise some jobs as “knowledge workers” (ugly term) Apr 03 16:47
schestowitz Which means “We sit there pushing paper in WTC while kids in Vietnam make Nike shoes” Apr 03 16:48
_Hicham_ yes Apr 03 16:48
_Hicham_ and there is nothing to do about it Apr 03 16:48
_Hicham_ no one can face China Apr 03 16:48
schestowitz http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/11/… Apr 03 16:48
schestowitz China defeated pricing Apr 03 16:49
schestowitz Like price-fixing over Apr 03 16:49
_Hicham_ China have more than 40 millions of prisoners Apr 03 16:49
schestowitz They lower wages and working conditions (hours) Apr 03 16:49
_Hicham_ all of them are workers Apr 03 16:49
schestowitz So you match that cost or perish Apr 03 16:49
schestowitz China does to ‘us’ what FOSS does to Microsoft/Windows Apr 03 16:49
_Hicham_ they don’t pay them sometimes (prisoners) Apr 03 16:49
_Hicham_ so FOSS is communism? Apr 03 16:50
schestowitz No. Apr 03 16:50
schestowitz Communism is something else Apr 03 16:50
schestowitz One form of socialism Apr 03 16:50
schestowitz Globalisation could now change things radically Apr 03 16:50
schestowitz It’s worse than the name suggests –Globalisation Apr 03 16:51
schestowitz Think of “rendition” or “enhanced interrogation” Apr 03 16:51
schestowitz Globalisation can be more like slavery Apr 03 16:51
_Hicham_ it is already a slavery Apr 03 16:51
_Hicham_ we are slaves to the US Apr 03 16:51
schestowitz In most places — yes Apr 03 16:51
schestowitz yes to the former Apr 03 16:52
_Hicham_ we can’t get compiled without the US headers Apr 03 16:52
schestowitz The anomaly was bound to end Apr 03 16:52
schestowitz Economical imbalance Apr 03 16:52
schestowitz Disparity in working conditions Apr 03 16:52
_Hicham_ gcc – c shestowitz.c -I ./US Apr 03 16:53
_Hicham_ gcc shestowitz.o -L ./US Apr 03 16:53
_Hicham_ no one can escape the US Apr 03 16:53
_Hicham_ but if it collapses, that would be another problem Apr 03 16:54
_Hicham_ the transition will be very hard Apr 03 16:54
schestowitz Here in the UK MPs are not concerned about availability of drug to students: http://www.theregister.co.uk/… Apr 03 16:54
_Hicham_ do u do drugs Roy? Apr 03 16:55
schestowitz The funny thing is that people are taught not to drink or smoke but at the same the same time assumed that they’ll do it anyway… not the same with copyright infingement. Apr 03 16:55
schestowitz No, never done drugs Apr 03 16:55
schestowitz Just the ‘alcohol’ drug. Apr 03 16:56
schestowitz Alcohol too is a drug Apr 03 16:56
_Hicham_ ah, so u drink? Apr 03 16:56
schestowitz So the question should be whether one did /illegal/ drugs. That too depends on location. Apr 03 16:56
_Hicham_ Alcohol is a drug Apr 03 16:56
_Hicham_ Cigarettes are drug Apr 03 16:56
schestowitz coke Apr 03 16:56
schestowitz But all of these are legal Apr 03 16:57
schestowitz And lethal Apr 03 16:57
_Hicham_ everything that u can get addicted to is a drug Apr 03 16:57
schestowitz Coke a little less Apr 03 16:57
schestowitz More addictive than harmful Apr 03 16:57
_Hicham_ hashish is legal in Netherlands Apr 03 16:57
schestowitz _Hicham_: yes, but some addictives have side effects that are harmful Apr 03 16:57
schestowitz Some do not Apr 03 16:57
_Hicham_ like for instance? Apr 03 16:57
_Hicham_ give me a drug that it is not harmful? Apr 03 16:58
schestowitz Many habits Apr 03 16:58
schestowitz Collecting stamps can be addictive Apr 03 16:58
schestowitz It’s a spychological dependency Apr 03 16:58
_Hicham_ it is not a drug Apr 03 16:58
_Hicham_ it is an addiction Apr 03 16:58
schestowitz It’s an addictive habit Apr 03 16:58
schestowitz Not a cdrug Apr 03 16:58
schestowitz But it can stimulate the brain in certain ways Apr 03 16:58
_Hicham_ we can add to this ur addiction to MS Apr 03 16:58
schestowitz To induce drugs/hormones/whatever Apr 03 16:58
_Hicham_ it is an addiction Apr 03 16:58
_Hicham_ ur r addicted to MS Apr 03 16:59
schestowitz Just like women have periods Apr 03 16:59
schestowitz Or exercise affects the mind Apr 03 16:59
schestowitz Because of chemical the body releases Apr 03 16:59
schestowitz *cals Apr 03 16:59
schestowitz _Hicham_: maybe dependency or lockin Apr 03 16:59
schestowitz Less to do with addiction in MS’ case Apr 03 16:59
schestowitz You could say that love is a similar trait to addiction Apr 03 17:00
schestowitz In the same that in both cases you have the element of yearning Apr 03 17:00
_Hicham_ u should call oiaohm to optimize the dependency Apr 03 17:00
schestowitz And physical/mental impulses. Apr 03 17:00
schestowitz _Hicham_: you got a man.crush() on oiaohm? Apr 03 17:00
_Hicham_ I like to tease u both Apr 03 17:01
_Hicham_ :D Apr 03 17:01
schestowitz \OK Apr 03 17:01
schestowitz Friendliness Apr 03 17:01
schestowitz Nothing wrong with that Apr 03 17:01
_Hicham_ do u have kids? Apr 03 17:01
iwmw schestowitz: all addictives have harmful effects Apr 03 17:01
schestowitz China may lead the way (a little scary): http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02… (China Vies to Be World’s Leader in Electric Cars) Apr 03 17:02
schestowitz _Hicham_: Not yet Apr 03 17:02
_Hicham_ India made a $2000 car Apr 03 17:02
iwmw how does it look? Apr 03 17:02
schestowitz Now would also be a bad time to start families. One friend of mine abstains from having kids with his partner because of the economy. Apr 03 17:03
schestowitz I don’t think she and him have enough job security to i’nvest’ in something for the next two decades Apr 03 17:03
schestowitz _Hicham_: good for India Apr 03 17:03
iwmw is it a girl that he doesn’t want to have a kids with? Apr 03 17:04
schestowitz iwmw: no idea what it looks like Apr 03 17:04
schestowitz China will probably copy designs from the west Apr 03 17:04
schestowitz iwmw: what does that mean? Apr 03 17:04
_Hicham_ http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/23/ta… Apr 03 17:04
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