Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 26th, 2008



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schestowitztessier, I saw that article earlier. Thanks. I posted it along with the latest links.Jun 26 06:05
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cozubmorgenJun 26 08:16
schestowitzHowdy, cozub.Jun 26 08:17
blackrabbithi cozub schestowitzJun 26 08:18
schestowitzGood news for Linux today. I'll post links later, but... RHT's results are a good start for the morning.Jun 26 08:18
tessierschestowitz: Morning? You are just waking up? You live in Australia or something?Jun 26 08:24
cozubUK, afaikJun 26 08:26
blackrabbithi tessierJun 26 08:26
schestowitzI've been waking up around 5AM recently. It's quite bright outside at that time.Jun 26 08:26
blackrabbitI didn't see you here yesterday, nice to meet you tessierJun 26 08:26
blackrabbitI didn't see you here either cozub or did I?Jun 26 08:26
tessierblackrabbit: I've been here for a week or two. Nice to meet you too.Jun 26 08:26
cozubwell, I'm mostly idling around and just reading stuff when I have the timeJun 26 08:26
blackrabbit:DJun 26 08:26
cozubI'm not really keeping upJun 26 08:27
cozubwith the happenings here or @ BNJun 26 08:27
blackrabbitcozub, if I have not spoken to you, nice to meet you :DJun 26 08:27
cozubnj, nice to meet you too :)Jun 26 08:27
blackrabbittessier, I suggested the creation of this channel via tor to schestowitz's excellent site, to my surprise, he created it!Jun 26 08:27
blackrabbittessier, I've been following schestowitz's efforts online for a long time now, he really is a heroJun 26 08:28
tessierYeah, I've been following him for a few years too.Jun 26 08:28
blackrabbittessier, unlike a lot of active websites, schestowitz actually reads user comments and appreciates them!Jun 26 08:28
tessierMostly via c.o.l.a.Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbittessier, he is great, isn't he?Jun 26 08:29
schestowitzThanjks, blackrabbit.Jun 26 08:29
tessieryepJun 26 08:29
blackrabbitschestowitz, thank you :DJun 26 08:29
blackrabbittessier, oh, another newsgroup user?Jun 26 08:29
blackrabbithow do you filter all of the newsgroup spam?Jun 26 08:30
cozubdoes the l and a in cola stand for linux advocacy? :)Jun 26 08:30
cozub(pardon my ignorance)Jun 26 08:30
schestowitzcozub, yes, it's comp.os.linux.advocacyJun 26 08:35
schestowitzI only found out about it in 2005. Prior to this I was in technical newsgroups, including the SUSE one.Jun 26 08:35
cozubthx. I heard of that group... but it's been some time since I stopped reading news; maybe I can give it another tryJun 26 08:37
schestowitzYou would probably need filters. There are abusive trolls there. Speaking of abuse, I've just cleaned up BN spam. GNAA is still spamming us (N and F words all over the place, as usual). It's not even comments. They flood the Web (inc. Slashdot) with automated self-promotion. It's gross to read.Jun 26 08:41
blackrabbitschestowitz, I've tried filters but how do you stop them from filtering good information?Jun 26 08:45
tessierblackrabbit: Filter by authorJun 26 08:45
tessierThe trolls never post good informationJun 26 08:46
blackrabbitthanks tessier I always filtered by content and it blocked a lot of good postsJun 26 08:48
tessierYou can probably reliably filter on swear words and racial words etcJun 26 08:49
schestowitzNot all the trolls curse.Jun 26 08:52
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schestowitzOpenSUSE's fans seem to be in a tizzy. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0...Jun 26 14:00
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schestowitzwb, moparx Jun 26 15:20
schestowitzEruaran, , seen this yet? http://practical-tech.com/bus...Jun 26 15:32
Eruaranhi royJun 26 15:51
EruaranI just sat downJun 26 15:51
schestowitzNot the first rant from him (first it was about desktop icons). :-(Jun 26 15:52
Eruaraneverybody knows 4.04 isn't the stable releaseJun 26 15:52
schestowitzYes, I was surprised by this too. The 4.1 branch (testing) ought to be better. The last report from PolishLinux was OK.Jun 26 15:54
EruaranYes, the word I'm hearing is that 4.1 is set to be a big improvement and the release the KDE devs are comfortable with as the first stable release thats ready for general use.Jun 26 15:56
EruaranThe fact that there has not been a stable release yet seems to evade some of these people who write reviews. Nobody said it was stable.Jun 26 15:56
schestowitzDiscussion here (just left a comment myself): http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/28092Jun 26 15:59
schestowitzNo, 4.2 might be needed for an 3.5-quality release. 4.2 _at the least_. Crashes/error versus user experience is the key At the end (very edn), it's important to get the latter right.Jun 26 16:00
EruaranThis guys review is just plain stupidJun 26 16:01
EruaranHe's taking good features that KDE4 has and slagging off about it without good reasonJun 26 16:01
schestowitzMy comment was short and I responded because they shoot the messenger, who is a bit of a friend. I wrote: "Trust Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols: I do trust the man, but watch what he's reviewing (old version). He needs to be patient. I'm sure it'll turn around."Jun 26 16:01
Eruaran"the ‘icons’ have small controls so you can work with the icon itself. Ah… why? This isn’t a Mac, I have a right mouse button key and I’m not afraid to click it."Jun 26 16:01
schestowitzYou reckon he trolls? I never saw him doing that. Honest.Jun 26 16:02
EruaranThis guy is just a dickJun 26 16:02
EruaranyesJun 26 16:02
EruarandefinatelyJun 26 16:02
schestowitzThe LinuxDevices people sometimes trolled.Jun 26 16:02
EruaranI have not met a single person who has tried KDE 4 who didn't like the little controls that light up on icons when you mouse over themJun 26 16:02
schestowitzI'll need to read it carefully. I read only the beginning.Jun 26 16:02
EruaranMy mum loves it because it makes sense to her (she doesn't understand right clicking and holding down shift or ctrl)Jun 26 16:03
EruaranMy boss loves it, he just says, "thats hot"Jun 26 16:03
EruaranAnd this guy is demonstrating he knows nothing about usabilityJun 26 16:04
schestowitzCool. By the way, is it true that KDE 3.5 isn't on the OSUSE CD?Jun 26 16:04
EruarandunnoJun 26 16:04
EruaranI don't pay much attention to OSuseJun 26 16:04
EruaranI think its highly overratedJun 26 16:04
schestowitzSusan is hyping it up (Tux Machines)Jun 26 16:05
EruaranPeople always hype OSuse up... and yet I've never been overly impressed when I've tried it for myselfJun 26 16:05
EruaranI don't get itJun 26 16:05
EruaranUbuntu has much better hardware supportJun 26 16:06
Eruaran"My smallest PC displays are 20.1” these days. There was never enough room on them for KDE 4" - this is just rubbishJun 26 16:07
schestowitzLadislav too...Jun 26 16:07
EruaranWe have KDE 4.1 beta1 on a demo system at work with a 22" widescreen (not much bigger) and its fantasticJun 26 16:08
schestowitzI'm not sure about hardware support. I've tried both on several computers and both worked quite perfectly without any yinkering.Jun 26 16:08
schestowitz*tinkering.Jun 26 16:08
EruaranOSuse doesn't have bad hardware supportJun 26 16:08
EruaranJust not as good as UbuntuJun 26 16:09
schestowitzNovell has the advantage which is those 'marketing people they hire'. New guy BTW:Jun 26 16:09
schestowitzhttp://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=480Jun 26 16:09
schestowitzI call them Novell boosters because their role (paid for) is to change perception. That's all. It comes from the term Microsoft booster. Microsoft is a marketing company. Same with Apple.Jun 26 16:10
EruaranAnd why are fuddsters still reviewing KDE 4.04 when 4.1 beta2 is out ?Jun 26 16:10
schestowitzOpenSUSE. That's why.Jun 26 16:11
schestowitzI can't convince SJVN to skip or ignore the sellouts.Jun 26 16:11
EruaranI would blame OpenSuse for thatJun 26 16:12
schestowitzHe knows people from there. In fact, eWeek gave Xandros and Linspire a lot of publicity; without SJVN, they /still/ do.Jun 26 16:12
EruaranIf they're pushing it as if its ready for prime time, thats their fault.Jun 26 16:12
schestowitzOpenSUSE also comes with FF beta, IIRC.Jun 26 16:12
schestowitzI don't want to draw attention to SJVN's alleged 'trolling', so I won't do a post blaming OpenSUSE..Jun 26 16:13
EruaranI think these guys just don't understand KDE's development processJun 26 16:13
schestowitzI think KDE could use marketing muscle. They should have never released 4.0 as though it's a product but more as a developer's 'SDK'Jun 26 16:14
EruaranAaron went to great lengths to explain it on his blogJun 26 16:15
schestowitzDistros that try to earn 'cutting-edge' merit (F9 too) are giving software that's not necessarily good for all users just yet.Jun 26 16:15
EruaranSo did a couple of the other guysJun 26 16:15
schestowitzEruaran, blogs are not seen as widely.Jun 26 16:15
schestowitzI wrote about it too.Jun 26 16:15
schestowitzI had 3.9 running alongside 3.5 at one stage. Actually, it's still installed.Jun 26 16:16
Eruaranwell even less widely now that Aarons has gone privateJun 26 16:16
schestowitz:-)Jun 26 16:16
schestowitzAccident, no?Jun 26 16:16
EruaranI noticed in the last couple of weeks that he lost patience with peopleJun 26 16:17
EruaranI think he's just fed up with all the crap being thrown at himJun 26 16:17
schestowitzHans for example. Also SJVN... yes, they take it out on him.. Beranger went through the trouble of putting "Seigo" in cartoons.Jun 26 16:18
EruaranI know myself that people just do not listenJun 26 16:18
EruaranAnd of course Microsoft would look at all this and be quite happy watching the community bleed itselfJun 26 16:19
schestowitzThat's what I was going to approach.Jun 26 16:20
schestowitzA friend of mine who is a professor has watch the BSDs and Linux for decades. He reckons Microsoft games it in subtle ways too.Jun 26 16:21
schestowitz*watchedJun 26 16:21
schestowitzHe was also fascinated when I showed him this leak: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf (Microsoft explains/is taught, among many things, that Microsoft should increase friction among rivals)Jun 26 16:22
Eruaran"KDE 4.1. Beta 2 is aimed at testers, community members and enthusiasts in order to identify bugs and regressions, so that 4.1 can fully replace KDE 3 for end users"Jun 26 16:34
schestowitzFrom KDE's site?Jun 26 16:35
EruaranyesJun 26 16:35
EruaranLets see how many people who review it actually report it that way though...Jun 26 16:36
schestowitzRemember the kernel hacker's petition? Just found this: http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819 "nvidia.ko: The NVidia driver is the single component in a KDE4 / Free Operating system stack causing us most of the hard-to-solve problems. In other words, nvidia.ko has grave technical shortcomings."Jun 26 16:36
EruaranyesJun 26 16:36
EruaranAnd Aaron has taken a firm stand on that sort of thingJun 26 16:37
schestowitzUbuntu devs used to complain (hopping mad) at AMD for making eye candy by default impossible.Jun 26 16:37
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EruaranThe KDE devs are not going to hack about trying to fix something that is Nvidia's faultJun 26 16:37
schestowitzI know this because I was there approaching them along with others like Phoronix and those who filed bug  reports.Jun 26 16:38
schestowitzLooking at post AMD's big announcement archives, I spouted out some serious s* about them, calling people never to touch their products (I have an ATI card on this machines). I was not alone.Jun 26 16:39
schestowitzhi, kentma!Jun 26 16:39
kentmahi schestowitz!Jun 26 16:39
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schestowitzHi, PetoKraus.Jun 26 16:47
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benJImanschestowitz: firefox final was pushed out with an online update within a few hours from release.Jun 26 16:56
benJImanschestowitz: Also 3.5 is on the DVD, there is not a livecd installer for it.Jun 26 16:57
schestowitzThanks, that's what I suspected (about Firefox). As for KDE 3.5, I though the installer was universal and had 3 options (DEs).Jun 26 16:59
benJImanschestowitz: On the DVD yes. The livecds just dump the image onto disk like ubuntu.Jun 26 17:09
schestowitzHmmm... I never had a DVD drive (let alone a CD burner). Don't ask. :-)Jun 26 17:10
benJImanNetinstall or whatever would be the same as dvd.Jun 26 17:11
schestowitzYes, I read about it the other day. I imagine not many people use it. The OpenSUSE site mentioned it only in a Lizard blog.Jun 26 17:11
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AlbertoPYou wrote: "OpenSUSE aficionados and Novell sympathisers teased us a little by claiming that OpenSUSE 11.0 was well received. They urged others to believe that there were no negative reviews, but there are actually quite a few, most of which will be shared on Saturday."Jun 26 20:06
AlbertoPcould you provide a reference?Jun 26 20:06
AlbertoPI mean a link where someone opensuse related stated thatJun 26 20:06
schestowitzIt was Francis, IIRC, who said this.Jun 26 20:07
schestowitzOthers, IIRC, sort of rode on his remarks.Jun 26 20:07
AlbertoPwell, link it or the post has zero valueJun 26 20:07
schestowitzHold on.Jun 26 20:07
AlbertoPplus calling "reviews" review is an insult for real reviewers...Jun 26 20:08
AlbertoPthey're opinions at bestJun 26 20:08
schestowitzYou are very assertive. I've just had a quick look, but I can't find it quickly enough. Do a search for the recent OpenSUSE posts and you'll see it. It's one of the critiques.Jun 26 20:11
AlbertoPno offence of course, but a review is a scientific process where you examine all the details, compare with others and write your conclusions...Jun 26 20:11
AlbertoPwhat we read, as I wrote in a comment, are "experiences"Jun 26 20:12
schestowitzOh, I found one example.Jun 26 20:12
AlbertoPgoodJun 26 20:13
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008... (it's from the troll borgermaster, not Francis)Jun 26 20:13
schestowitzAlbertoP, I agree about the use of the word review, but nowadays people even call a quick tour 'a review', so I don't know anymore.Jun 26 20:13
schestowitzBlogging lowered the barrier to publishers, so reviews can also consist a few paras.Jun 26 20:14
AlbertoPwell, the point is the value given to the reviewJun 26 20:15
AlbertoPa review on a blog is not scientific at allJun 26 20:15
AlbertoPmost of the times they're not detailed enough even to reproduce themJun 26 20:15
AlbertoPand the accuracy is under the soilJun 26 20:16
schestowitzYes, if you're being pedantic... word by word...Jun 26 20:16
AlbertoPit's not being pedantic, it's being honestJun 26 20:16
schestowitzI wouldn't have bothered with that last post if it wasn't for remarks from OpenSUSE's anonymous pos[t]ers.Jun 26 20:16
AlbertoPa review should point out good and badJun 26 20:17
AlbertoPwith indications to reproduce the problems metJun 26 20:17
AlbertoPif this is not done, well, the review is, at best, a personal opinionJun 26 20:17
AlbertoPmaybe reliable and honest, but not scientificJun 26 20:18
schestowitzOkay, are you done ranting about terminology?Jun 26 20:18
AlbertoPnoJun 26 20:18
benJIman"x.1: Bugfix to x.0 to get back to x-1.3 quality/support/compatibility." is just laughable when you consider 10.1Jun 26 20:18
AlbertoPI'm just saying that your post about opensuse not being "well received" is simply unsupportedJun 26 20:18
benJImanIt's not necessarily unsupportable, just you havn't supported it.Jun 26 20:19
AlbertoPand the statement "there are bad reviews when suse guys said the opposite" is unsupported as well, considering you didn't link to anythingJun 26 20:19
AlbertoPexactly benJIman :)Jun 26 20:19
AlbertoPand well, usually ranting is done using other tones ;-)Jun 26 20:20
schestowitzAlbertoP, fine then. Later I'll post a heap of OpenSUSE 11.0 rant, some of which are extensive. That'll make you happier.Jun 26 20:21
AlbertoPwell, if supported, I'll consider them helpfulJun 26 20:22
AlbertoPso suse guys will fix the issuesJun 26 20:22
schestowitzNo problem. :-)Jun 26 20:24
AlbertoPall this people should really use bugzilla :)Jun 26 20:25
schestowitzYes, I know. I don't post bad reviews.Jun 26 20:28
AlbertoPwell, a bad review, but with explanations, is _a_lot_ more useful than a good oneJun 26 20:30
AlbertoPit tells you "hey! we did it wrong, we must fix it bad"Jun 26 20:30
AlbertoPanyway, back to workJun 26 20:31
schestowitzYes, agreed. But some people rant if they get angry or waste time. Susan Linton never does this; Beranger does this all the time.Jun 26 20:31
AlbertoPoh well, I'm hypercritical with opensuse myself all the time, but well, there's a distinction between "the problem I have" and "the whole quality of the distribution"Jun 26 20:32
AlbertoPand this rarely appears in reviewsJun 26 20:32
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schestowitzAlbertoP, especially for you, buddy: http://boycottnovell.com/20... . They are instrutive.Jun 26 21:24
AlbertoPthanskJun 26 21:25
AlbertoPthanks*Jun 26 21:25
schestowitzNo problem. I'm off to bed now.Jun 26 21:25
AlbertoPgood nightJun 26 21:26
RogerBacongive a break to open suse guy'sJun 26 21:42
RogerBacon;)Jun 26 21:42
AlbertoPRogerBacon, actually that post just says opensuse is good in about 90% of the reviews ^^Jun 26 21:53
AlbertoPbut well...Jun 26 21:53
AlbertoPI'm the one who likes a "distribution with no directions", because it takes the one I want >:)Jun 26 21:54
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