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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 15th, 2008

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kentma1mornin'Sep 15 05:43
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schestowitzhttp://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/2008/0... "..It’s interesting to see Novell so vigorously supporting Microsoft’s Hyper-V, and this may be part of what accompanies the partnership with Microsoft and its purchase of SUSE Linux coupons.."Sep 15 06:36
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kentmaIt's bound to continue...Sep 15 07:39
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schestowitzYes, to the Irish press Hovsepian recently told that the # of collaborations with Microsoft would triple.Sep 15 07:41
kentmaI think Novell see it as their survival strategy - oddly, I think Microsoft also see it as /their/ survival strategy, too.  The key question is whether the rest of industry will be interested, though.Sep 15 07:48
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MinceRnovell is misguidedSep 15 09:02
MinceRmicrosoft may live or die, but novell won't lastSep 15 09:02
schestowitzIt almost collapsed just before signing that deal with Microsoft.Sep 15 09:03
schestowitzFor Microsoft, some say that OOXML was a matter of life or death (not literally). The financial issues will blow up one day.Sep 15 09:03
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MinceRif microsoft depends on ooxml, they're really grasping the last strawSep 15 09:09
schestowitzThe other thing they have is patents (and FUD), but they use them to scare, not to sue. I'll write a post about it.Sep 15 09:11
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macabeWas reading the post on truly free distros (gNewsense); I like to stick to a distro until I have a better understanding of it and been using primarily Debian.Sep 15 12:20
macabeI thought it was a "Free" distro with options to add non-free.Sep 15 12:20
macabeI'm constantly running around supporting a loose user base in Rochester.Sep 15 12:28
macabeSo when I have a chance to hear, read & learn the finer details of FOSS, it then supports what I keep advocating (beliefs) with stronger and more valid points.Sep 15 12:28
macabeOne of the things I lack is being able to communicate those beliefs eloquently. At work it's there goes "The Linux Nut".Sep 15 12:34
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macabeSo I appreciate the posts at boycott novell. It opens up areas which I did not fully understand or even knew about.Sep 15 12:35
macabeEspecially MONO; If it wasn't for the chats here from Roy & twitter, I've would've fallen into that trap.Sep 15 12:39
schestowitzmacabe: thanks, I've just come back so haven't had the chance to respond. When I started with FOSS, I knew nothing about GNU. The same goes for many people who think of "Linux" just as another O/S like Mac OS (they don't know what proprietary software means). And all they ever hear are the myths because "Linux" has no marketing.Sep 15 12:43
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macabeIt seems more you put FOSS into play the more trolls come out of the "woodwork", specially at work.Sep 15 12:51
macabeI didn't know how deranged these guys would get 'till I brought those debian servers on line and they didn't know it wasn't windows.Sep 15 12:52
schestowitzEnsure they understand what it is (let them play with a Ubuntu/Debian Live CD(Beta)). Let them play with Compiz. People don't fear what's better known. If they can understand it, they embrace it peacefully rather than fight it.Sep 15 12:56
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MinceRhm, were any legal text changed already to keep people buying a certain brand of laptops from being able to get the m$ tax back?Sep 15 13:14
schestowitzI think the guys from Poland and the Czech Republic (recent notable refunds) got their refund for Vista.Sep 15 13:17
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schestowitzGot to love patents! http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008...Sep 15 13:56
AVRS2Why is the article saying Nokia filed a patent and pointing to a Microsoft patent? And so what is ( 1 of 778 )?Sep 15 14:12
twittermacabe:  they are not so deranged as they are lied to, closed minded and proud.  M$ manages to get people to feel personal pride and loyalty for M$ junk.Sep 15 14:13
twitterIt is cult like.Sep 15 14:13
schestowitztwitter: not just Microsoft. Apple too. Just watch their ads.Sep 15 14:14
schestowitzAVRS2:  good point. I didn't notice that.Sep 15 14:14
twitterAll brands seek customer loyalty to one extent or another.  They cross the line when they move into personal identification and self esteem issues.Sep 15 14:17
twitterApple does this too, but they have not as mean spirited as M$ is.  The M$ SLOG goal is to have their products "evangelize themselves" in the M$ way.Sep 15 14:18
schestowitzhttp://itmanagement.earthweb.com/columns/ex...Sep 15 14:18
schestowitzSlog is another story altogether. In the slog you stack panel and bribe people. Slog is crime. Details in http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content... (yes, I made a local copy just in case)Sep 15 14:20
twitterElgan ... http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2007/10/06/arrogance...Sep 15 14:21
twitterhe's part of the Slog.Sep 15 14:21
schestowitzI know. But a different direction.Sep 15 14:21
twitterThe constant attacks on Apple software, hardware, employees and users is typical of the slog.Sep 15 14:23
schestowitzYes. Elgan wrote about GNU/Linux as well. He describes himself as a Windows guy, but he's not as vicious as some others.Sep 15 14:24
twitterHe's part of a well made pattern.  The "tech press" is full of negative things about Apple, Google and GNU/Linux, when all of these are superior to what M$ has to offer.Sep 15 14:25
twitterHow many people put off buying an iPhone because trolls trotted out nonsense about minor flaws, such as keyboard, and called Apple users smug fags?Sep 15 14:26
schestowitzGartner and IDC are bad in that regard.Sep 15 14:27
schestowitzhttp://groups.google.com/group/comp...Sep 15 14:27
twitterIt distracts people from issues that matter, such as freedom and privacy.Sep 15 14:28
schestowitzAlso http://groups.google.com/group/comp...Sep 15 14:29
MinceRactually, crApple isn't all that different from what m$ has to offer.Sep 15 14:29
MinceRand there are freedom issues with crApple.Sep 15 14:29
schestowitzWorse ones.Sep 15 14:29
MinceRthere are also privacy issues with Google.Sep 15 14:29
MinceRindeed, crApple lockdown is worse than m$ lockdown.Sep 15 14:30
twitterYes, those are the issues that matter, but the dominant player is worse than all.Sep 15 14:30
MinceRit's only worse if we don't get a crApple monopoly over us the moment we get rid of m$.Sep 15 14:30
MinceRit shouldn't be allowed to happen.Sep 15 14:30
twitterYou either have freedom or you don't.  M$ offers neither freedom nor privacy.Sep 15 14:30
twitterM$'s illusion of freedom is worse than Apple's outright denial of it.Sep 15 14:31
schestowitzWell, for now I'd take Apple over Microsoft.Sep 15 14:33
schestowitzApple is still in the "ignore" phase. They don't yet "ridicule" or "attack". Not much anyway.Sep 15 14:33
twitterThe technical press wastes acres of ink over minor technical differences and ignores issues of freedom.Sep 15 14:33
twitterApple is a more direct user of free software and less an enemy.Sep 15 14:33
schestowitz The press wastes acres of ink over minor gossip and ignores hunger in the worldSep 15 14:34
schestowitzPeople sometime beg for this type of ignorance and it sells (to advertisers, not just readers)Sep 15 14:34
twittercorporate controlled media is designed to distractSep 15 14:35
MinceRcrApple is only a user of free software as long as they steal code and sell itSep 15 14:35
MinceRtheir contributions are minimal and they're campaigning for software patents and DRM.Sep 15 14:35
MinceRhunger in the world could be solved by eliminating the need for menial work and scarcity via technology.Sep 15 14:35
MinceRcurrently m$ and crApple stand in the way of that.Sep 15 14:36
twitterpatents on living things will lead to more hungerSep 15 14:36
twitterIt's the IP Empire insanity.Sep 15 14:37
twitterM$ and Apple stand in the way of knowledge and progress but M$ is far worse than Apple.Sep 15 14:37
twitterPart of Apple's "ignore" is that M$ is busy doing the dirty work.  It is difficult to tell how dirty they would be without M$.Sep 15 14:39
MinceRthey're definitely not as good as that game -- but given dominance in the market, crApple would bring a new age of Stupidity.Sep 15 14:40
schestowitztwitter: Woz has slammed open source already.Sep 15 14:40
MinceRlink?Sep 15 14:40
MinceRi thought Woz was sane, apparently he isn't.Sep 15 14:41
schestowitzhttp://groups.google.com/group...Sep 15 14:41
schestowitzhttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.o...Sep 15 14:41
schestowitzhttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.os...Sep 15 14:41
schestowitzhttp://groups.google.com/group/comp.os... (I keep track of Apple's behaviour towards FOSS)Sep 15 14:42
MinceRthxSep 15 14:47
twitterhttp://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Infrastructure/...Sep 15 14:47
twitterNot so stinging as it is clueless.  ""Theres always a group of people that wants to undo the forces of industry that have given us so much in terms of wealth, and theres always people who want things to be free," Wozniak said.Sep 15 14:48
twitterThat is true.Sep 15 14:48
twitter"The open-source movement starts with those sort of people. But it still has such good points that have nothing to do with whether its free or not. The idea of developing something and then making your solution known. Spread the information so the world can grow from it."Sep 15 14:48
twitterThat is opinion.Sep 15 14:48
trmancohttp://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquire...Sep 15 14:49
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twitterI think Woz understands what "free" means and he's an enemy of it because it threatens his wealth.Sep 15 14:50
MinceRi think he doesn't understand what "free software" meansSep 15 14:50
twitterSure he does, but he hates it.Sep 15 14:51
jose__schestowitz, here's something that may be interesting.. [BTW, do you have the link to your piece on ms dropping its gaming division or did i read about that elsewhere?]Sep 15 14:52
MinceRif he thinks it's about gratis then he doesn't understand it.Sep 15 14:52
jose__http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/po...Sep 15 14:52
MinceRand it's obvious that he thinks so.Sep 15 14:52
jose__this pro-sony piece might actually be a pro-ms pieceSep 15 14:52
twitterIt is paradoxical that he hates software freedom but praises information spreading.  I suppose he still does not believe that free software can economically spread information - that's clueless.Sep 15 14:52
jose__"The relationship between Microsoft and Electronic Arts has grown closer and closer over the years, culminating in the recent swap of executives in Peter Moore and Don Mattrick."Sep 15 14:52
jose__EA has been after Take Two which is one of sony's gems, right?Sep 15 14:53
jose__MS dropped their gaming division, right?Sep 15 14:54
jose__EA and MS have gotten close over the years as the quote above states.Sep 15 14:54
jose__They swap execs or something like that as the quote here says.Sep 15 14:54
jose__ms doesn't leave markets.. they really REALLY value gaming, entertainment, easyeasier, visual, etc.Sep 15 14:55
jose__we've already seen moves of close partnerships in other areas.Sep 15 14:56
schestowitzHey, jose__ Sep 15 14:56
jose__heySep 15 14:56
jose__what i wrote above was directed at you.. so do you see MS and EA getting very VERY close?Sep 15 14:56
schestowitzjose__: I posted about that gaming thing. Let me find it.Sep 15 14:58
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/12/i...Sep 15 14:59
jose__just came across this: "Since the deal with Take-Two and EA has officially ended, what do you think would happen if Take-Two wanted to merge with Sony and how would that affect EA? Would EA be making awful ports for the PS3 since EA said the PS3 was their main platform, or would they quit making games on Sony's system all together? Take-Two is still looking for a company to merger with for their games and how things are going righSep 15 14:59
jose__t now including Sony, it wouldn't surprise me. What is your take on this?"Sep 15 14:59
jose__..from here http://www.gamespot.com/pages/forums/s...Sep 15 14:59
jose__dated yesterdaySep 15 15:00
schestowitzEA got blasted over DRM recently.Sep 15 15:00
schestowitzSpore.Sep 15 15:00
jose__..schestowitz.. wanted to mention this.. you are logging so you can look at it later if you wantSep 15 15:00
MinceREA haven't learnt their lesson yet, though.Sep 15 15:00
twitterGames leave me clueless.  How many major companies are developing games for PS3?Sep 15 15:01
twitterHow easy would it be for M$ to snuff out PS3 and its GNU/Linux by corrupting and bribing those companies?Sep 15 15:01
jose__ps3 is a long term platformSep 15 15:01
jose__sony is large and their ps2 is topsSep 15 15:02
schestowitzEA has been Windows-oriented for a long time.Sep 15 15:02
twitterPS3 is an excellent platform, but M$ wants to kill it like they have killed so many other excellent platforms.Sep 15 15:02
schestowitzhttp://groups.google.com/gro... :  Microsoft Accused of "Briberies", by SonySep 15 15:03
twitterif EA has always been Bill Gates' slave, talk about it and PS3 is just FUD, right?Sep 15 15:03
jose__i think there would be a lot of strong backing for ps3 .. at least sony and ibm.. sony is an entertainment company.. note bluray beat out hddvd recently ..at least in my neck of the woods: USSep 15 15:04
schestowitzThere was also this sage of alleged briberies (Microsoft versus Sony): http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.lin...Sep 15 15:04
schestowitz*sagaSep 15 15:05
schestowitzThis one if from June: Microsoft Paid For Bioshock Exclusivity ( http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3... )Sep 15 15:06
schestowitz"The article in question is "The Lies We Tell: Bioshock's Exclusivity," and talks about how most games from third-party publishers start out as being multi-platform. It also says that due to the installed user base of both the PS3 and 360, it would make sense for developers to issue multiple releases."Sep 15 15:07
twitterAh, the M$ version of choice.Sep 15 15:08
jose__rs, from the first of the google groups link you gave you provided a link at the top of your comment to this: "It’s perhaps easy to see why Tretton may feel frustrated - over the past few months, titles that have traditionally appeared on PlayStation consoles (Beautiful Katamari, Ace Combat 6, Devil May Cry 4, and so forth) have been ruthlessly snapped up by Sony's rival, and will now only appear on Microsoft platforms. The receSep 15 15:09
jose__nt news that the Redmond-based giant had captured exclusive GTA IV downloadable content for the Xbox 360 thanks to a cool $50m advance to Take-Two won’t have lightened Tretton’s mood, either."Sep 15 15:09
schestowitzThat's the bizniz(C)Sep 15 15:10
jose__ms the entertainment company, too.. wow, what will that do for choice and to ms' levers?Sep 15 15:10
jose__xbox and games ms biz losing tons of money.. yeah.. no dumping going on for sureSep 15 15:13
schestowitzSony does this too.Sep 15 15:14
schestowitzBut it denies real competition. You must be willing to lose many billions of dollars to participate.Sep 15 15:14
jose__xbox is underpriced and likely ms is giving sweat deals to third party gaming...Sep 15 15:14
jose__yup, .. and once ms has the monopolies (reinforced with their current ones)....Sep 15 15:15
jose__good news is that xbox hasn't been nearly as popular considering all the money ms has blown on itSep 15 15:15
jose__ms shuffling their biz around allows them to claim that they might not be dumpingSep 15 15:16
jose__perhapsSep 15 15:16
jose__"sweat deals" above might have been freudian slip (vs. sweet deal).Sep 15 15:20
jose__:)Sep 15 15:20
jose__no doubt sony plays hardball and is clever.. but ms is in a league of their own.. this is why i back sony in this situationSep 15 15:23
jose__too bad they can't all annihilate each otherSep 15 15:25
trmancoschestowitz, "they" are harassing you again :|Sep 15 15:28
schestowitzjose__: to an extent it's happening, but when things settle down and they reach mass production, costs decline. They also make money from games, assuming they succeed in shipping many units.Sep 15 15:31
jose__they should make money from msliveSep 15 15:32
schestowitzMicrosoft is currently said to be fighting for second spot (after Nintendo). Before those recent discounts (increased dumping), Microsoft was well last in its home ground for several consecutive months.Sep 15 15:32
jose__but i think ms is losing money by bucketloads in order to wrestle away dominance and more from sonySep 15 15:32
jose__ms can't get exclusives unless they give somethingSep 15 15:32
schestowitzjose__: are you kidding? Live is an area where they blow $billions. It had their stock sink after the last report.Sep 15 15:32
jose__that means ms could be making very little per game ..maybe exclusives for a few years and then they shut the "nice" doorSep 15 15:33
jose__i didn't mean make money net.. i meant it is income for themSep 15 15:33
jose__revenuesSep 15 15:33
schestowitzThere should be a film (hopefully not HDDVD) called "dumping wars" -- an heroic stories which fought over who could tolerate greater losses before the pocket runs too shallow.Sep 15 15:34
jose__in the long run live is sweet moneySep 15 15:34
jose__just like game title selling.. allowing them to lose on the boxSep 15 15:34
schestowitz*heroic story of companies that...Sep 15 15:34
jose__but ms is likely losing tons because of their exclusive and other deals where the game makers really might game short termSep 15 15:34
schestowitzThey sell XBoxes at a loss, too.Sep 15 15:35
jose__they were probably selling it at half price or worse .. not officially but i'd guess in realitySep 15 15:36
jose__considering ms newness into the field (overheads and extra r&d)Sep 15 15:37
jose__ms's monopoly profits allow them to lose billions that sony would not and they can hide those losses across their divisionsSep 15 15:38
jose__thank goodness for nintendoSep 15 15:38
kentmaIt's interesting coming into a discussion late ... why are we thanking Nintendo?Sep 15 15:38
jose__ms and sony.. nintendo was the 15 sec break of the actionSep 15 15:39
kentmaahhh, okay.  I've nothing particularly against Nintendo, btw...Sep 15 15:39
schestowitzjose__: yes, they merge unit to hide this.Sep 15 15:40
schestowitzIn fact, they unify unrelated products just so that they can show the investors that all divisions are good and thus Microsoft's decisions are all wonderful.Sep 15 15:40
jose__but they can hide dumping this way tooSep 15 15:41
schestowitzIn a similar vein, I suspect Novell is crunching numbers to show what it calls "high growth" of its Linux business, i.e. future. There are ways of faking it.Sep 15 15:41
schestowitzjose__: yes, dumping too.Sep 15 15:41
jose__from here http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/14/pete...Sep 15 15:44
jose__nevermind..  i was going to say that those that do a bad job as independents are more likely to be hired by ms.. but no not reallySep 15 15:45
jose__"bad job" meaning that the bias shows too muchSep 15 15:45
schestowitzI see this as an issue of reward & punishment. Microsoft warns good coverage this way.Sep 15 15:48
schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/200...Sep 15 15:53
twitterI just read the last BN M$ article.Sep 15 16:00
twitterOne thing that props M$ up is that other big publishers still believe in DRM.  Check out this laughable article http://www.businessweek.com/technology/...Sep 15 16:01
schestowitzVivien (??) at the EC was brainwashed by the same nonsense. Let me find it.Sep 15 16:02
schestowitzHere: http://defectivebydesign.org/EU_LetterSep 15 16:03
schestowitzPatent Overload: http://www.heise.de/english/newsti...Sep 15 16:08
schestowitzProtests too: European Patent Office staff to demonstrate for reforms ( http://www.heise.de/english/news... )Sep 15 16:09
schestowitzhttp://news.cnet.com/8301-13505... "There was some distressing news buried in Sean Michael Kerner's look into Novell's and Microsoft's virtualization partnership. The news, however, had nothing to do with virtualization, and everything to do with Microsoft job titles."Sep 15 17:22
schestowitzSome people have called Preston Gralla a shill. Now he publishes this: http://www.computerworld.com/action/... (CW is IDG=IDC=Microsoft 'studies')Sep 15 17:32
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twitterHa ha.  As millions of Americans lose their homes, we should all take a moment to weep for the bankers.  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/n...Sep 15 18:32
schestowitzThe US is in debt. Let me do some searching about it.... BTW, 2 minutes ago I found: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/20658/1054/ (New Allegations of Fraud at Apple)Sep 15 18:33
schestowitzI don't know how reliable this is, but here: "America has become more a debt 'junkie' - - than ever before with total debt of $53 Trillion - - and the highest debt ratio in history." http://mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-de...Sep 15 18:34
schestowitzI was told by a business man and friend at the gym last week that the wealth is in the middle east and far east.Sep 15 18:35
schestowitzSlim is apparently far from the richest man if one guy in [was it Dubai?] is worth like $600 billiob.Sep 15 18:36
schestowitzHoly smokes. http://beranger.org/index.php...Sep 15 18:39
twitterThe practices used to exploit people in the developing world have been turned on the developing world.  http://www.stallman.org/imf-damnat...Sep 15 18:51
twitterThey will have the same result.Sep 15 18:52
schestowitzStiglitz? Old on...Sep 15 18:52
schestowitzhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2348Sep 15 18:53
schestowitzFrom RMS' site: "Stiglitz cannot simply be dismissed as a conspiracy nutter. The man was inside the game - a member of Bill Clinton's cabinet, chairman of the President's council of economic advisers."  Well, he also won a Nobel prize.Sep 15 18:54
schestowitzNow this: Ebay "deteriorating" - mass layoffs expected ( http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/new... )Sep 15 18:57
twitterThere's good evidence that the current crisis was planned as a means of consolidating wealth but I can't find the link.Sep 15 18:58
twitterStallman linked to it sometime in the last two or three years.  It was an IMF or World Bank insider predicting the current mess.Sep 15 18:59
schestowitzA friend of mine told me this, but he's a SurfingTheApocalypse guy, so I don't know if he was exposed to misinformation.Sep 15 18:59
schestowitzNot a good time to have a mortgage.Sep 15 19:00
jose__business cycleSep 15 19:01
twitterNo, it's 30 years of "deregulating" http://www.alternet.org/story/93509/Sep 15 19:02
jose__the wall street firms losing recently.. that's not the main people who already made tons of money and/or bailed.. it's ma and pa holding leh and selling it today and probably all of this week.Sep 15 19:02
jose__i dont' mean business cycle as an excuse to justify it.Sep 15 19:02
schestowitz"Most recently, the investors' fears were turned on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the huge quasi-private corporations that package and circulate trillions in debt securities with implicit federal backing. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson (formerly of Goldman Sachs) boldly proposed a $300 billion commitment to buy up Fannie Mae stock and save the plunging share price -- that is, save the shareholders from their mistakes. So much for mSep 15 19:03
schestowitzarket discipline. For everyone else, Washington recommends a cold shower."Sep 15 19:03
jose__the cycle is buy low and sell high.. for those with power, money, influence, insider access, etc..Sep 15 19:03
jose__and buy high sell low for eveyrone else which is roughly the other half of the worldSep 15 19:03
schestowitzYou mean like Microsoft's inside-trading?Sep 15 19:03
schestowitzhttp://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/micros... http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumb...Sep 15 19:04
jose__ms has tremendous knowledge they share with non one.. their software is everywhere, they strick deals with everyone, they have huge money, they work on ndas..Sep 15 19:04
jose__strike not strick.. etc.Sep 15 19:04
schestowitzSeeking Alpha: "Insider Trading Hasn't Affect Microsoft Stock - Yet [...] MarketWatch.com reports that Robbie Bach, president of Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices division, sold $6.2 million of Microsoft stock just prior to announcing that Microsoft was going to have to  extend XBox 360 warranties to three years because of extensive  failures.""Sep 15 19:05
schestowitz"The filings note that this was not part of any  scheduled diversification or selling program; this was a  conscious, unscheduled sale by the guy in charge of releasing  news that could affect the value of Microsoft stock."Sep 15 19:05
jose__insider knowledge doesn't have to be of the illegal kind that would be caught. they simply are in a position to know a lot..Sep 15 19:05
schestowitz"Insider trading is a very serious violation of the law; just  ask Martha Stewart, who served five months in prison for  avoiding losses of $43,000 through trades that just had suspicious timing (no insider trading was actually proven). This is $6.3  million that went straight into Robbie Bach's pocket."Sep 15 19:05
schestowitzThe trouble is he never got punished. Criminal in a position of Microsoft Vice President.Sep 15 19:06
jose__to quote from the link RS (Roy) just gave on stiglitz: "His paper said markets can be distorted if one side has more information than the other, implying intervention may be needed to restore fairness."Sep 15 19:06
jose__this is what allows the desirable "business cycle" to make lost of money and keep things in check (no hyperinflation) there is a time to buy and a time to sell and it's generally not me and you that knowSep 15 19:07
schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/Weblog/ar...Sep 15 19:07
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schestowitzStiglitz also slammed the patent systemSep 15 19:07
schestowitzI think he's opening a division nearby where I live. Let me check.Sep 15 19:08
schestowitzYes, he is : http://www.bwpi.manchester.ac.uk/abou...Sep 15 19:08
schestowitzIntellectual Property Regime Stifles Science and Innovation, Nobel Laureates Say ( http://www.ip-watch.org/weblog/... )Sep 15 19:09
jose__roy, i was just saying that ms has tremendous info available. they don't control all markets but they have a tremendous advantage. they can craft fancy derivative holdings and through them their knowledge and timing of decisions, they can make lots of money.Sep 15 19:12
jose__extra knowledge can be your downfall, so I am always hopeful, but they do have advantages beyond any obvious insider trading scenarios.. all large companies do and ms is more than just a large companySep 15 19:14
schestowitzIt's a broader issue. I wonder how Microsoft does financially (not what's publicly disclosed). Some executives liquidate (thinking of themselves, not investors)Sep 15 19:15
schestowitz*LOL* http://reddevil62-techhead.blogspo... "Frugalware is the only Linux distribution I know of which requires you to enter the root password before it will power down your PC – and I have no idea why it does that."Sep 15 19:18
mib_1kymtmshutdown is restricted to the root user ?Sep 15 19:19
mib_1kymtmadd the user to the /etc/sudoers file ..Sep 15 19:20
schestowitzThe developer need to be told this. It's just a little funny.Sep 15 19:21
mib_1kymtmOn a server you don't want standard user shutting it downSep 15 19:22
schestowitzYes, I thought about that, but Frugalware is for home desktops, AFAIK.Sep 15 19:22
mib_1kymtm"I did have some weird login problems with the Xfce desktop "Sep 15 19:22
mib_1kymtmhasn't set the localhost IP properly ..Sep 15 19:22
jose__i ran rehhat for a while in a terminal some time back and i always shut down as root using "shutdown -h 1" or something similarSep 15 19:23
mib_1kymtmwhat's t Frugalware based on ?Sep 15 19:23
schestowitzjose__: when I log on remote and run "reboot", then I can understand, but he's right there on the desktopSep 15 19:23
jose__i don't think it's a good idea.. i agreeSep 15 19:24
jose__but if frugalware is ancient...Sep 15 19:24
schestowitzSlackwareSep 15 19:24
jose__based on something old, ie, ??Sep 15 19:24
twitterWith OpenSSH and X forwarding, all machines should be thought of as servers.  This is one of the great advantages of free software.Sep 15 19:26
twitterOnly root and people who can reach the power button should be able to cycle power.Sep 15 19:26
schestowitzI did many years of work over SSH+X. It's the only way I could cope with low-end PCs.Sep 15 19:26
twitterHeh, I finally have reasonable computers.Sep 15 19:27
schestowitzOr MSN staff: http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1585Sep 15 19:27
twitterUntil this year, I used to have at least two machines up all the time.  One was dedicated to email.  The other was my desktop.Sep 15 19:28
schestowitzNow I n understand why Microsoft warns the world about those 'terrible' and 'unreliable' clouds. Contingencies? Where did you want to go /today/?Sep 15 19:28
schestowitzPut E-mail on a shared server with a host you trust. Save energy. :-)Sep 15 19:29
twitterMy Email client runs on my desktop now.  I used to be able to run a server off my cable modem, but that was blocked years ago.Sep 15 19:32
schestowitzI can't. Quite. Find it. http://www.veen.com/jeff/archives/000687.htmlSep 15 19:35
mib_1kymtmSCO is still undead ..Sep 15 19:35
mib_1kymtm"FranklinCovey Products .. today announced .. its new FCmobilelife product .. FCmobilelife is developed by The SCO Group of Lindon, Utah, under an exclusive licensing agreement with FranklinCovey"Sep 15 19:35
mib_1kymtm"The truth is the substantial amount of investment we've put into this mobile business in the past four years - it's in the tens of millions of dollars - is now ready to go into harvest mode."Sep 15 19:35
schestowitzAh! Found it: http://www.veen.com/jeff/archives/000555.htmlSep 15 19:35
mib_1kymtmhttp://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/...Sep 15 19:35
mib_1kymtmhttp://www.sltrib.com/technology/ci_10226771Sep 15 19:36
jose__twitter, i'm not sure how i would handle the power off issue if i were to build a distro. it depends on some things, and I can see more than one option being given to the user depending on what level of security they want. one possibility is to isolate most interactions with the outside so that power off that the user could normally access would not be accessible. i'd have to think about thisSep 15 19:36
schestowitzTom Harbey is biasedSep 15 19:36
schestowitzPJ has already slammed that one down. I can find it for you.Sep 15 19:37
schestowitzIt's here (I wrote about tis article): http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0...Sep 15 19:37
mib_1kymtmI use the power button to power off .. you should see the look of amazement on the XP users facesSep 15 19:37
mib_1kymtmttg .. see ya Roy ...Sep 15 19:38
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twitterI archive my email using kmail and it's filters.Sep 15 19:39
schestowitzI left KMail in 2004.Sep 15 19:40
twitterEverything is maildir.  Mail from people I know goes into it's own directory, replies remain in the folder.Sep 15 19:40
schestowitzYou can change to mbox too.Sep 15 19:41
twitterSure, create a new mbox and drag things into it.Sep 15 19:41
twitterWhat's your mail client now, if you don't use kmail?Sep 15 19:41
schestowitzLots of good Linux announcements today: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/s... http://tinyurl.com/5ffmxoSep 15 19:42
schestowitzThunderbird is probably my most used apps, unless KDE counts (it's a DE).Sep 15 19:42
twitterI like Kontact.Sep 15 19:43
schestowitzhttp://www.linux-mag.com/id/6892 "I foresee VMWorld bringing some significant surprises to light this year. Whether it’s a Microsoft-Novell merger, a Sun-Microsoft partnership, or simply that the whole world goes virtual Desktop mad; there will be an abundance of high fiving, glass clicking, and from me — some “I told you so’s.”"Sep 15 19:46
twitterNon free software, it's like food from China.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...Sep 15 19:48
schestowitzYes, I saw it in the front page of http://www.smh.com.au/ .  Sep 15 19:50
schestowitzhttp://www.theage.com.au/world/sabo...Sep 15 19:50
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jose__see you guys laterSep 15 19:54
*jose__ has quit ("Leaving")Sep 15 19:54
*zoobab has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Sep 15 19:57
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schestowitzThis one smells fudsy: http://www.sdtimes.com/FRO...Sep 15 20:01
schestowitzThis is FUD for sure because he has a track record: http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=2615Sep 15 20:06
twitterThere's nothing new about GPL FUD.Sep 15 20:12
twitterIt's all kind of funny because the GPL is one of the easiest licenses around.Sep 15 20:13
schestowitzNot if you're a legal advisor trying to make ends meet /easily/Sep 15 20:14
twitterLicense proliferation is better for that.  I don't like the Ubuntu EULA deal.Sep 15 20:16
twitterFree software does not need a EULA.Sep 15 20:16
twitterEspecially an obnoxious click through version.Sep 15 20:16
schestowitzEULA is waiver of rights.Sep 15 20:16
schestowitzIt's like the "just sign here.." Jeeves with the pan in his hand.Sep 15 20:17
twitterIceWeasel works for me.Sep 15 20:17
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schestowitzI had an argument with Mozilla. I don't think they are big Linux fans. Some of them are, but the rest are open source in the O'Reilly sense.Sep 15 20:19
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trmancowhat's the big deal of the Firefox Eula on UbuntuSep 15 20:22
trmanco?Sep 15 20:22
trmancopeople make up huge problems just because of a couple of words and notices....Sep 15 20:23
trmancohttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/15/u...Sep 15 20:23
schestowitzapt-get install abrowserSep 15 20:23
schestowitzsudo!!Sep 15 20:24
trmancoabrowser?Sep 15 20:25
trmancololSep 15 20:26
trmancoits Firefox 3.0.2 unbrandedSep 15 20:26
trmancohttp://www.itworld.com/open-sour...Sep 15 20:27
trmancoa new sourceforge?Sep 15 20:27
schestowitzNo, no, it's a browser.Sep 15 20:27
schestowitzTotally new. Kind of like the Weasel.Sep 15 20:27
schestowitzUbuntu says you F*ck us, we F*rk you. :-)Sep 15 20:28
AVRS2Do you know anything about the SF.net's terms of use? There is a pointer to them in https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Sep 15 20:28
AVRS2I mean https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wik...Sep 15 20:28
AVRS2oh, that's a redirectSep 15 20:28
schestowitzI have a project on SF.netSep 15 20:28
trmancowell, I don't give a damn about the eula, I'll just keep using it *firefox*Sep 15 20:29
AVRS2€«By uploading code to SourceForge.net, you grant SourceForge a perpetual proprietary license.[4]€»Sep 15 20:29
schestowitzSavanna is the place for the gnus to roam.Sep 15 20:30
cjhaha.  abrowser, iceweasel, seamonkey.  good fun.Sep 15 20:30
schestowitzhttp://savannah.gnu.org/ You can trust the FSF.Sep 15 20:30
cjfsf++Sep 15 20:30
trmancocoolSep 15 20:31
trmancodidn't know the existence of savanaSep 15 20:31
cjI think it uses sevane, a fork of uhm... someone help me hereSep 15 20:31
cjer, savaneSep 15 20:32
AVRS2of SourceForgeSep 15 20:33
cjalexandriaSep 15 20:33
AVRS2hmmSep 15 20:33
trmancohttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&...Sep 15 20:34
cjhttp://sourceforge.net/projects/alexandria/Sep 15 20:34
AVRS2damn sf.net for requiring JSSep 15 20:34
schestowitzAVRS2: check if they have js spywareSep 15 20:34
AVRS2schestowitz: google adsenseSep 15 20:35
cjgforge is also a fork of alexandiraSep 15 20:35
AVRS2Well, IIRC it was there on an other project page…Sep 15 20:35
cjgforge is a bit more popular than savane, though.  more recently maintained, too, I think.Sep 15 20:35
schestowitzI love checking what domains and scripts try to run on the visitrors' pC.Sep 15 20:35
cjused for alioth.debian.orgSep 15 20:35
trmancohttp://blogs.computerworld.com/is_micro...Sep 15 20:36
schestowitzGoogle Analytics (Urchin) is one HECK of a spyware scriptsetSep 15 20:36
cjschestowitz: a'yup.  visitors are relatively anonymized in the default interface that google gives you, but that interface barely scratches the surface of the data that it slurpsSep 15 20:37
schestowitztrmanco: I overkilled images on Phoronix and I don't know how to withdraw the blacklisting. I like to strip images from site but I went too far with Phoronix, so I need to pass it through Thunderbird to watch the images. :-(Sep 15 20:38
trmancookSep 15 20:38
trmancololSep 15 20:38
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schestowitzI can view the list in the Thunderbird addon, but not FF. Weird.Sep 15 20:41
tessier_http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=9254Sep 15 20:43
tessier_hahah..,funny pictureSep 15 20:43
AVRS2schestowitz: if you used AdBlock to do that, “Open Blockable Items” seems to have the relevant menu items.Sep 15 20:45
AVRS2(well, it's the default thing for AdBlock, unless I reconfigured it…)Sep 15 20:47
schestowitztessier: it's actively being discussed in BN and there's an update: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/...Sep 15 20:49
tessier_Interesting. Time to start looking more seriously at KVM I guess.Sep 15 20:51
tessier_I knew this was coming.Sep 15 20:51
schestowitzAVRS2: I can't find it.Sep 15 20:51
AVRS2schestowitz: find what? Click the AdBlock icon, or choose Open blockable items in its drop-down menu. The blocked stuff is red in the list.Sep 15 20:52
AVRS2Also accessible using Ctrl-Shift-V.Sep 15 20:53
cjtessier_: sadly, kvm doesn't have a pv hypervisor, unless you count qemuSep 15 20:53
schestowitzAVRS2: I don't seem to have this icon and menus.Sep 15 20:54
AVRS2schestowitz: Ctrl-Shift-V?Sep 15 20:54
schestowitzI'm on 2.0.x and I still have some deprecated plugins from pre-1.0 releases.Sep 15 20:54
AVRS2hmmSep 15 20:55
schestowitzAVRS2: this shortcut has no effectSep 15 20:55
AVRS2I am using 3.0.1 with AdBlock Plus (plus…) 0.7.5.5 and ABP: Element Block Hider 1.0.5Sep 15 20:55
schestowitzI can't even remember if it's adblock, adblack plus or the CSS hack I set up some years ago. Maybe a combination thereof. In Thunderbird it's nicer.Sep 15 20:56
tessier_cj: I don't care about pv. Everything comes with virtualization extensions these days.Sep 15 20:59
schestowitzI have qemu on this box. Hardly of much use.Sep 15 21:01
cjtessier_: you should.  the pv hypervisors are much more efficient in terms of I/O than hv hypervisors.  CPU cycles are not the bottleneck; I/O wait time isSep 15 21:01
cjschestowitz: my point exactly :(  I think a bunch of the xen source could be used by the kvm folks to set up a pv storySep 15 21:03
cjbut then, I'm still using the xen setup that existed before Citrix started paying the devs, so *shrug* it doesn't really matter so much to me who pays them, so long as they continue to be paid and continue to release the source under the gplSep 15 21:04
cjand there are enough contributors to xen at this point that it's infeasible that the license will change, even if ms does buy citrixSep 15 21:05
tessier_cj: check out "virtio" Full hardware virtualization with paravirt I/O.Sep 15 21:12
cjtessier_: ooh.  in that case, I'd like to see that happen.Sep 15 21:14
cjbut the servers in my rack still don't have hardware virtualization, and neither do most of the free software devs I know...Sep 15 21:14
cjhttp://kvm.qumranet.com/kvmwiki/VirtioSep 15 21:19
cjwell, that certainly sounds nice.Sep 15 21:19
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AVRS2On the Firefox 3 EULA: I think the existance of an EULA in it is useful (see paragraphs 4 and 5 of the EULA). Unfortunately, there is a bug which makes it crap: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug...Sep 15 21:51
AVRS2The way Ubuntu apparently shows the EULA gets around that bug.Sep 15 21:52
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schestowitzUpgrade intercepted by lawyers.Sep 15 21:53
AVRS2For those who don't go looking at the paragraphs, they are about privacy policy (with a link, which makes user suffer from the bug) and phishing protection.Sep 15 21:57
AVRS2https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug... - thorough (sp?) description of the bugSep 15 21:58
AVRS2But since nobody looks at EULAs, nobody tests them, and it's been accidentally only fixed on non-Linux platforms.Sep 15 22:00
schestowitzMozilla gives a low priority to GNU/Linux. I once saw their list.Sep 15 22:08
AVRS2schestowitz: seen https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug... ?Sep 15 22:09
AVRS2https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi... point 15 ;)Sep 15 22:11
AVRS2“This is incredibly Linux-centric and shows a basic disrespect for the desires of Mac users in general.”Sep 15 22:11
MinceRthe desires of typical mac users deserve nothing but disrespect anyway.Sep 15 22:12
AVRS2That makes it look like it (is|was at that point) not all that bad… or that which MinceR just saidSep 15 22:13
schestowitz Asa Dotzler  at #19. I don't like him.Sep 15 22:15
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2007/10/25/m...Sep 15 22:15
AVRS2the last msg in his blog: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives...Sep 15 22:16
MinceR(rationale: afaict the desires of typical mac users revolve around themes of 'must be shiny', 'must have shiny apple logo on it', 'must be announced by steve jobs', 'must work exactly like a certain apple product', disregarding any functionality or reason -- not something that's worth working with)Sep 15 22:16
AVRS2In that case, it was "must work like a certain apple product without checking a box".Sep 15 22:18
MinceRyes, that's more accurateSep 15 22:18
MinceRalso, it shouldn't have any checkboxes whatsoeverSep 15 22:18
AVRS2I won't comment on the buttons being good or bad though; never used them (at least don't remember from the day I might have).Sep 15 22:19
AVRS2[in those sizes]Sep 15 22:20
AVRS2AFAIK, Asa Dotzler is more marketing (SpreadFirefox? not sure) than Mozilla.Sep 15 22:23
AVRS2Some said they were using Mac OS X because MoCo bought MacBooks en masse (sp?)…Sep 15 22:25
AVRS2And then there is some expensive proprietary testing suite for Mac…Sep 15 22:26
schestowitzAVRS2: yes, he's marketing, sort of.Sep 15 22:26
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AVRS2Unfortunately I tend to forget to reply to e-mails in threads about licensing I start sometimes… which may be why http://www.tiraecol.net/modules/comic/ is still under an invalid license :( although it would be almost certainly non-free anyway.Sep 15 22:29
MinceRi wonder why would mozilla want to pander to apple fanboysSep 15 22:32
MinceRthey won't use anything but safariSep 15 22:33
AVRS2(cc) and then there are "the Creative Commons license" mentions like in http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a...Sep 15 22:37
AVRS2And apparently I haven't fixed the Ecol mention in a Wikipedia list… done nowSep 15 22:37
AVRS2gnSep 15 22:40
MinceRo/Sep 15 22:40

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