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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: November 16th, 2008 - Part 2

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schestowitzThey try to portray their opposition as mentally ill.Nov 16 11:21
trmanco:|Nov 16 11:21
schestowitzI see the same BS coming from their Munchkins, also in USENET.Nov 16 11:21
schestowitzPhrases like "Linux loons" and "paranoia".. very typical... you know you're on the right topic when they do this. They have no better (effective like a truth) methods to combat the arguments, so they question a person's mental stateNov 16 11:22
schestowitzThis is done also in politics. Just watch how Gore and people like Lessig get smothered.Nov 16 11:22
trmanco...Nov 16 11:22
trmancoa little childish for a "big" company like MSNov 16 11:23
schestowitzWho posted these screenshots anyway? Someone who was at PDC or someone who grabbed it via btttorrent?Nov 16 11:23
trmancohe grabbed it from bit torrentNov 16 11:24
schestowitz[can never be too childish.. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=2lLRBiEBRAc ]Nov 16 11:24
trmancothe guy who posted the images is not a windows geekNov 16 11:24
trmancoor fanboyNov 16 11:24
schestowitzAh, okay.Nov 16 11:25
trmancothat is why his review tell the truthNov 16 11:25
trmancotellsNov 16 11:25
schestowitzI'm stunned at how similar it is to Vista (or XP). They make no progress, which confirm their grip about the code not being maintainable.Nov 16 11:25
schestowitzThey still chase better UI experiences like Mac OS X and KDENov 16 11:25
trmanco*still*Nov 16 11:25
trmanco:-PNov 16 11:26
schestowitzI gave the wrong URL.Nov 16 11:26
schestowitzWrong monkey dance (I did the "I'm feeling lucky" in Googlebar). THis one is the correct URL: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=B1GPG2RUtGkNov 16 11:26
trmanco"Some conclusions:Nov 16 11:27
trmancoUma palavra: Vista. One word: Vista. Com algumas (poucas) novidades, mas Vista. With some (few) news, but Vista. Achei mais lento que o Vista nas mesmas condições, ao contrário do que se diz. I thought slower than the Vista under the same conditions, contrary to what they say."Nov 16 11:27
trmancohere some words from the guy who made the reviewNov 16 11:27
schestowitzWrong URL again. This one is OK: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc (the thumbnails are wrong)Nov 16 11:27
trmancoLOLNov 16 11:28
trmancothe song was niceNov 16 11:28
schestowitzYes, it should be slower.Nov 16 11:28
schestowitzThey still ponder (or decided) making a cut-down version of Vista 7... for low-end machines.Nov 16 11:29
trmancowtfNov 16 11:29
schestowitzI'd love to see one of these people who got the build from torrent putting it as-is on a netbook.Nov 16 11:29
schestowitzThat will suddenly reveal a huge inconsistency wrt Microsoft's claims.Nov 16 11:29
trmancoyes it wouldNov 16 11:31
schestowitzCan't sue Microsoft though. ;-)Nov 16 11:31
schestowitzNot in the US anyway.Nov 16 11:31
schestowitzThe ASA would maybe nail them for deceptive marketing.Nov 16 11:31
trmancothe EU needs to sue S moreNov 16 11:32
trmancoMS*Nov 16 11:32
schestowitzBear in mind that Microsoft was sued for vapourware, among other things.Nov 16 11:32
trmancosued where? Europe?Nov 16 11:32
schestowitzFrom http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/10/i... :Nov 16 11:32
schestowitz"Microsoft is well-versed in the use of vaporware tacticsNov 16 11:33
schestowitzto dampen interest in the products of its competitors.Nov 16 11:33
schestowitzMicrosoft’s use of vaporware traces back to the very originsNov 16 11:33
schestowitzof the company, when Bill Gates informed MITS theNov 16 11:33
schestowitzmanufacturer of the world’s first PC that he had a versionNov 16 11:33
schestowitzof BASIC ready to run on the first personal computer, whenNov 16 11:33
schestowitzhe had yet to write a single line of code. "Nov 16 11:33
schestowitz"See ConsolidatedNov 16 11:33
schestowitzStatement of Facts, ۦ 5. Gates received a mock honor ofNov 16 11:33
schestowitzthe “Golden Vaporware Award” for his preannouncement of theNov 16 11:33
schestowitzfirst version of Windows to preempt entry by VisiOn, a GUINov 16 11:33
schestowitzannounced in 1983 when by 1985 it still had not shipped. SeeNov 16 11:33
schestowitzR. Prentice, supra n.3, at 1181 (attached). When MicrosoftNov 16 11:33
schestowitzentered into the Consent Decree with the DOJ in 1994, JudgeNov 16 11:33
schestowitzSporkin refused to enter it based on the DOJ’s refusal toNov 16 11:33
schestowitzaddress Microsoft’s rampant vaporware practices. See UnitedNov 16 11:33
schestowitzStates v. Microsoft, 159 F.R.D. 318, 334-36 (D.D.C. 1995),Nov 16 11:33
schestowitzrev’d, 56 F.3d 1448 (D.C. Cir. 1995) (finding district courtNov 16 11:33
schestowitzto have exceeded permissible scope of review)."Nov 16 11:33
trmanco...Nov 16 11:39
schestowitz"Fast spreading wildfires in southern California are now threatening to seriously disrupt the electricity supply to Los Angeles." < http://technocrat.net/d/2008/11/15/54208 >Nov 16 11:39
schestowitzPoliticians Still Trying To Outlaw Being A Jerk < http://techdirt.com/articles/20081113... >Nov 16 11:46
schestowitzHehe. I just showed my 12-year-old sister the monkey dance of Steve Ballmer.Nov 16 12:07
schestowitzShe asked who that crazy guy was.Nov 16 12:07
MinceRj0Nov 16 12:20
macabeSame here, show it to my mom she was rolling.Nov 16 12:21
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ZiggyFish1interesting storyNov 16 12:31
ZiggyFish1US Elections, Global Economy Are Major Challenges For US IP Association <http://www.ip-watch.org/weblog/ind...>Nov 16 12:31
ZiggyFish1I don’t think we’ve even begun to tap into the power of Peer to Patent in terms of creating immediate value for applicants.  The most important next step is for practitioners to start drafting patent applications with Peer to Patent review in mind.Nov 16 12:32
ZiggyFish1We’ve submitted our own “experimental” applications that should show up on Peer to Patent by the new year.  A follow up seminar on the results will be presented in San Francisco US in February at the WRG patent strategy meeting.Nov 16 12:32
schestowitzIP. Tee hee.Nov 16 12:32
ZiggyFish1it's a step in the right directionNov 16 12:33
schestowitzIt's funny how they equate knowledge to propertyNov 16 12:33
schestowitzWhich is why IP or IPR is considered propganda/Nov 16 12:33
schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2006...Nov 16 12:33
ZiggyFish1just got their feed in my rss readerNov 16 12:34
schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/Weblog/arch...Nov 16 12:34
ZiggyFish1what is interesting is the idea of 'Peer to Patent'Nov 16 12:35
schestowitzAssuming people participate.Nov 16 12:36
ZiggyFish1might look it up a bit more tomorrow morning.Nov 16 12:37
ZiggyFish1http://www.peertopatent.orgNov 16 12:37
schestowitzIt's a huge challenge to pool all of human knowledge (6+ billion people) and deem what's considered "novel"Nov 16 12:37
schestowitzOr... the easier option is to trash this idea of owning every tiny accumulation of knowledge, which happens in many places at the same time anyway.Nov 16 12:38
schestowitzThere are many examples in history when people invested the same thing without knowing about others doing the same thing independently.Nov 16 12:38
ZiggyFish1trueNov 16 12:40
ZiggyFish1just looking at this patent "Methods and systems for tracking and auditing intellectual property in packages of open source software"Nov 16 12:41
schestowitzHmmm... James Plamondon < http://www.thumtronics.com/Ron.pdf >. Same guy? Also from Aussie...Nov 16 12:42
schestowitzhttp://center.spoke.com/info/p...Nov 16 12:43
ZiggyFish1the funny thing is you end up braking this patent to help prevent yourself from braking other patentsNov 16 12:43
schestowitzWiner entertains these jerks...  http://archive.scripting.com/2007/01/12Nov 16 12:44
schestowitzAnother Microsoft 'evangelist': "Michael Gartenberg and Steven Levy together, pull the truth out of Steve Jobs on why the iPhone doesn't run software written by developers. But it's not the truth that Jobs would have you believe."Nov 16 12:44
schestowitzI guess I should not be surprised since Winer also 'adopted' Scoble, a Microsoft 'evangelist'. Winer also attends the conferences of the abusive monopolist.Nov 16 12:44
schestowitzYuck. MS 'orgy': http://weblogs.jupiterresearch.com/analysts/...Nov 16 12:46
schestowitzOh, is *is* him in the music industryNov 16 12:47
schestowitzhttp://scripting.wordpress.com/2007/01/09/...Nov 16 12:47
schestowitzJames PlamondonNov 16 12:47
schestowitzCEO, ThumtronicsNov 16 12:47
schestowitzThe New Shape of Music(tm)Nov 16 12:47
schestowitzhttp://www.thummer.comNov 16 12:47
ZiggyFish1anyway I'm off for the night, c yaNov 16 12:48
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schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?... "...if there are actually companies that hastily undertook a migration to GNU/Linux and got themselves into trouble? For years, I've been reading cautionary tales, but you know, I've never read about actual disasters. ... So, what are the names of these unfortunate companies that inspire such tales of caution and disaster? Do they exist outside the imaginatNov 16 13:01
schestowitzion of FUD merchants?"Nov 16 13:01
schestowitzWell, lookie here... the Microsofters just 'find' some anti-Google Apps study... http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/micro... who paid for the study? Was there a handshake somewhere? What was the motive?Nov 16 13:59
schestowitzOMG: it's a MIcrosoft COMPANY...  almost.. http://www.clickstreamtech.com/about.htmlNov 16 14:00
schestowitzNew York Times 'special edition' spoof perplexes readers < http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/200... >Nov 16 14:08
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seller_liarvery cool!Nov 16 14:55
seller_liarhttp://www.fsdaily.com/Community/Boycott_Novell_P...Nov 16 14:55
seller_liarI was thinking ....Nov 16 14:56
seller_liarIt's very good if someone create a net implementation in javaNov 16 14:56
seller_liarlike JrubyNov 16 14:57
schestowitzHeyNov 16 14:57
schestowitzI'm doing a post about it at the moment. There are more posts out there.Nov 16 14:57
seller_liarI was thinking in start a net implementtion in 9 months maybe....Nov 16 15:06
seller_liarbut I need good papers for startingNov 16 15:06
seller_liarThere are a ocaml  implementation in javaNov 16 15:06
schestowitzYesNov 16 15:13
schestowitzRescuing code from Microsoft's APIs is important.Nov 16 15:14
schestowitzThat's why Microsoft dodged to OOXMLNov 16 15:14
schestowitzInterpretors of .doc/.xls/other were TOO GOOD. It needed to move goalposts.Nov 16 15:14
seller_liarBecause I will not to stop people using .net ,but we can java run .netNov 16 15:22
seller_liarIt's good, It' s not bad.Nov 16 15:23
seller_liarThe reverse is the real problem (ikvm)Nov 16 15:23
schestowitz:-) http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/...Nov 16 15:40
seller_liarGood!Nov 16 15:53
seller_liarThese  people are more revolutionary than BraziliansNov 16 15:53
schestowitzMy dad just phoned me.Nov 16 15:53
schestowitzHe doesn't follow tech but he read about the Intel/Microsoft collusion in the paperNov 16 15:53
seller_liarAnd what you think  the idea about .net implementation in javaNov 16 15:54
schestowitzPeople begin to realise what Intel/Microsoft is all about.Nov 16 15:54
seller_liarIntel is very DangerousNov 16 15:54
schestowitzYEsNov 16 15:54
schestowitzThey rename computers I think.Nov 16 15:54
seller_liarIf vole day some day ,lets Start to boycott intelNov 16 15:54
schestowitzNetbooks.Nov 16 15:54
schestowitzI tried to find out if it's an Intel trademarkNov 16 15:54
seller_liarIf vole die some day ,lets Start to boycott intelNov 16 15:54
schestowitzI couldn't find evidence. Can you help me check?Please?Nov 16 15:55
schestowitzseller_liar: I already talk about Intel at times. But it's too much to focus on.Nov 16 15:55
seller_liarAbout wintel netbook attack?Nov 16 15:55
schestowitzCheck if "Netbook" is a trademark.Nov 16 15:55
schestowitzI suspect it might be. Intel also uses the term "MID"Nov 16 15:55
schestowitzAnd the press foolishly echoes that.Nov 16 15:55
schestowitzit's a departure from TabletPC, which was a miserable failure (Windows only)Nov 16 15:56
seller_liara good link about trademarkdNov 16 16:01
seller_liarhttp://www.wipo.int/edocs/mdocs/sme/en...Nov 16 16:01
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seller_liarSorry ,I was trying to find but nothingNov 16 16:07
schestowitzAh, same here.Nov 16 16:07
schestowitzIs there a trademark lookup tool (USPTO)? I couldn't find any.Nov 16 16:07
schestowitzDell tried to gain ownership of "cloud computing"Nov 16 16:08
seller_liarhttp://www.uspto.gov/smallbusiness/tra...Nov 16 16:09
neighborleewow..Nov 16 16:12
neighborleeI guess someone heard me ;)Nov 16 16:12
schestowitzWho? Jo?Nov 16 16:12
neighborleeFor example, Fedora 10 does not ship with Mono installed [1]Nov 16 16:12
neighborleeAnd yes, the establishment shall feel free to move this post to recurring discussions so people don't look at it. < from vexorian post about: a quick question on software patentsNov 16 16:12
neighborleehere: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthre...Nov 16 16:13
schestowitzWe got some more Mono-boosting yesterday.Nov 16 16:13
neighborleeoh ? ;)Nov 16 16:13
seller_liarwho is the guards ? directhex?Nov 16 16:14
neighborleeoh btwNov 16 16:14
neighborleename isn't Joanne schestowitz ,,its JosephNov 16 16:14
neighborlee:)Nov 16 16:14
neighborleenot that it matters,,,but...Nov 16 16:14
neighborleeIn order to install F-Spot and Tomboy, considered the best choices in their class by the Desktop team, installed by default. < HEX comment in that threadNov 16 16:15
neighborleethats all the have to hang their hang on, is 3 apps, the latre that most I bet rarely even use, and for which is such a bright shining app that not even the boated vista OS comes with such a app :))Nov 16 16:16
neighborleewow,,but linux really needs it :)Nov 16 16:16
neighborleeeven so..there are very adept alternative to tomboy that dont require mono.Nov 16 16:16
neighborleezim for one I thinkNov 16 16:16
neighborleeso those arguements are not very moot I think.Nov 16 16:17
neighborleenot/nowNov 16 16:17
seller_liarrthymbox is goodNov 16 16:18
neighborleeMoved to Recurring Discussions. < again..see ubuntu admin just can't see fair open discussion about something this important, where everyone will SEE it actively..best to hide it apparantly ;))Nov 16 16:18
neighborleeseller_liar, gthumb I think willl be good enough real soon if it isnt alreadyNov 16 16:19
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seller_liaryes , fedora live cd uses gthumb nowNov 16 16:19
neighborleegthumb now exports to flickr I hear which is  great.Nov 16 16:19
neighborleeyupNov 16 16:19
seller_liarIn paldo GNU Linux ,i have tried to explain to moderators ,but always have guardsNov 16 16:20
neighborleeso now fedora and debian are the only safe ones,.only difference is I guess fedora dvd still has it which doens't make alot of sense but there you..unless someone knows thats also changedNov 16 16:20
schestowitzseller_liar: there is more than one 'guard'Nov 16 16:21
neighborleeI think often people are too young to have seen the threats that  M$ has imposed over theyears,,or they dont care being C# programmres and wanting mono to succeed as hex isNov 16 16:21
schestowitzSome of them we have in BNNov 16 16:21
neighborleeindeed LOLNov 16 16:21
seller_liarhttp://forum.paldo.org/index.php?action=to...Nov 16 16:21
schestowitzTheir 'job' is to ensure Mono stays and spreads.Nov 16 16:21
neighborleeand they dont mind spreading fud to do it..a trait picked up from big brother LOL ;)Nov 16 16:22
neighborleeand something they try to use against those trying to show the reality of mono etc...typical M$ tactics ;))Nov 16 16:22
seller_liarA good idea can be make a java implementation of monoNov 16 16:23
seller_liarlike JrybyNov 16 16:23
seller_liarJrubyNov 16 16:23
neighborleenever heard of that one, illl googleNov 16 16:23
seller_liarThere's nothing to findNov 16 16:23
neighborleeanyway I think alot of this is moot now basically isn't it , now that java is open source ? ( im not a progarmmer guru )Nov 16 16:23
seller_liarBut , it's very good port mono to javaNov 16 16:24
seller_liarMaybe someday we can convert banshee of hell to java using Jmono!Nov 16 16:24
seller_liarPort mono to java is a simple way to confuse novellNov 16 16:25
schestowitzYou need to reprogram devs tooNov 16 16:25
neighborleeFedora ships Mono < from HEX again,,these people just never get over the lieing thing do they ;)Nov 16 16:25
neighborleeI can not believe their willigness to lie.Nov 16 16:25
schestowitzThat issue is, the people Novell employes for it /LOVE/ Mono.Nov 16 16:25
schestowitzSome of them love Microsoft tooNov 16 16:25
neighborleeI wonder if anyone will catch that fedora does NOT ship mono..if not I shall chime in real soon ;)Nov 16 16:26
schestowitzYou can't convince them to move to Java even if you explain the dangers of MonoNov 16 16:26
seller_liarDirect hex use the argument Fedora DVD  and not fedora live cdNov 16 16:26
schestowitz.They trust Microsoft, which they believe will defends them.. well, as long as they develop for Windows and NovellNov 16 16:26
neighborleeseller_liar, of course ;)Nov 16 16:26
neighborleeseller_liar, however I heard the livecd is  fedora's preferred default install method..Nov 16 16:27
seller_liarBecause this a mono implementation in java can be very good to java communityNov 16 16:27
neighborleeAND the livecd is a much smaller download and takes  a much smaller hit against their serversNov 16 16:27
seller_liarYes ,but I do not like fedoraNov 16 16:27
seller_liarIs very geekNov 16 16:27
neighborleewell its not my favorite either, but atm its one of the few distros that has their heads on straight.Nov 16 16:27
neighborleedebian has too it seems, but  d efault debian installer is a joke , as much must be done after install to get to a reasonable desktop and I refuse to bother.Nov 16 16:28
seller_liarFor example if create a mono port to java ,the user can acess mono libraries to complemente java and then convert csharp code to bytecadoeNov 16 16:28
neighborleeunlesss lenny has changed that by nowNov 16 16:28
seller_liarThe only way to convince .net people to change is make java compile .netNov 16 16:30
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seller_liarlook Jruby for exampleNov 16 16:31
seller_liarhttp://jruby.codehaus.org/Nov 16 16:31
seller_liarhttp://ocamljava.x9c.fr/Nov 16 16:31
seller_liarhttp://www.jython.org/Project/Nov 16 16:32
seller_liarhttp://bistro.sourceforge.net/Nov 16 16:32
seller_liarThis is a real "gay programming"Nov 16 16:34
neighborleeI think another thing that is often missed with mono talks, is that M$ never intends ( last I heard ?) to release source  TO mono, thereby hardly making it a prized  race horse for anyone that takes linux seriously.Nov 16 16:34
neighborleeLOL gay programiming..is that some new language ;)Nov 16 16:35
seller_liarNo , Java uses a lot of languages now , it's a truly rainbow of languagesNov 16 16:35
neighborleeahhhh :))Nov 16 16:36
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neighborleeAnd Mono is completely Free Software, whichever way you look at it < you see this is the spin that is constantly used by these types..when its clear we all know its not true..but since they do this for a living, they of course must defend even lies ;)Nov 16 16:37
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seller_liarhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Nov 16 16:37
seller_liarThe very strange thing is ...there's not a free implementation of  c#->javaNov 16 16:44
seller_liarwhy?Nov 16 16:44
seller_liarhttp://www.linkedin.com/companies/mainsoftNov 16 16:45
neighborleeFor example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program." < how again does the novel deal avoid this ???Nov 16 16:47
neighborleeive noted many times thats a deal breaker at least on principle , but that doesn't get talked about alot.Nov 16 16:47
neighborleehowsever that only novel is covered and no one else is just as relevant.Nov 16 16:48
neighborleeI think we need to do alot more reminding,  that fedora is now 'clean' at least on the livecd front.Nov 16 16:48
neighborleeand debian...Nov 16 16:48
neighborleewhich ubuntu is based on, but clearly not folowing in said footsteps ;)Nov 16 16:49
schestowitzneighborlee: see http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/28076  "/s/Free Open Source Software/Free-yet-microsoft-swpatents-encumbered/"Nov 16 16:54
neighborleecheckingNov 16 16:54
schestowitzOld Microsoft tricks - published just now... http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/...Nov 16 16:57
schestowitzI alerted some journalists I know about it too.Nov 16 16:57
schestowitzseller_liar: what about Mainsoft?Nov 16 16:58
schestowitzThey work with IBM too, IIRC> WebSphere and all...Nov 16 16:58
seller_liarOnly Mainsoft has the interest in to port .net to java ?Nov 16 16:59
seller_liarWhy only Mainsoft?Nov 16 16:59
neighborleecrap..I read on miguel log that moonlight no longer needs mono, is this true ?Nov 16 17:00
neighborleenot that it matters,,moonlight is  stilll silverlight which is from a known monopolist and hater of all things linux so I see no relevance on those fronts either...how soon some forget ;)Nov 16 17:01
neighborleeall M$ cares about is its bottom line $$$,,,linux cares about FOSS I wonder which principle has the most honor :)Nov 16 17:02
schestowitzneighborlee: it's like saying that Moonlight does not require Microsoft codecs.Nov 16 17:03
schestowitzneighborlee: is this item from Miguel new?Nov 16 17:03
neighborleedont recall how new it is, butits on his log site, whatever its calledNov 16 17:04
neighborleeseems its from may 08Nov 16 17:04
neighborleegood going btw trying to get word out..champions of foss never have to goto sleep at night tossing and turning that we are crusading for closed standards ;)Nov 16 17:05
schestowitzOh, old news that. It's disinfo.Nov 16 17:06
neighborleewoahNov 16 17:07
schestowitzYou could compile Moonlight without Microsoft codecs, but it makes it impractical to use on the Web.Nov 16 17:07
schestowitzAs far as I know (but I cannot be 100% sure), it's like saying that Flash is okay because we have gnash.Nov 16 17:07
seller_liarthe same thing for google chromeNov 16 17:07
schestowitzSure, some thing would not work, but it's sort of... kind of... 'works'. Same with Mono-less Moonless, AFAIK.Nov 16 17:08
schestowitz*Moonlight, not Moonless. *LOL*Nov 16 17:08
seller_liarand moon(b)light have some parts licensed in permissive licencesNov 16 17:08
neighborleewhen will M$ learn, that foss wants nothing to do with their codec, we want foss alternatives like ogg, and we will all do well by it to inlcude ogg wherever we can on our websites etal..if we dont its never going to become a standard ;)Nov 16 17:08
neighborleeseller_liar, yupNov 16 17:08
schestowitzOr Google's ports of software to GNU/Linux...Nov 16 17:08
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schestowitzPicasa... they remove the bits that don't work in Linux and then release it with stuff castrated.Nov 16 17:09
seller_liarchrome and moondark can imbue proprietary code without the user knowNov 16 17:09
schestowitzSame with Skype... can't GNU/Linux have all the Windows features. It's the same codebase, no?Nov 16 17:09
mib_ge9oce?Nov 16 17:09
MinceRand google earth which insisted on an upgrade... which didn't work at all.Nov 16 17:09
MinceRit didn't even display the planet after the "upgrade"Nov 16 17:09
schestowitz:-)Nov 16 17:09
neighborleeschestowitz, just lke skype, mono wil never se e the light of day of the .net sources, which alone makes it hardly worthy of users of FOSS ;)Nov 16 17:10
seller_liarforgot google earth try to use marbleNov 16 17:10
MinceRthen there are their webapps that completely ignore all web standards and target some browsers insteadNov 16 17:10
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MinceRwill marble work as a map?Nov 16 17:10
seller_liarand there are the AGPL problem with google sourcesNov 16 17:11
seller_liarsorry I do not knowNov 16 17:11
MinceRlooks like it willNov 16 17:11
MinceRbut it needs kde4 so it will have to wait until i upgradeNov 16 17:11
seller_liarhttp://edu.kde.org/marble/Nov 16 17:11
schestowitzMarble uses open mapping dataNov 16 17:14
schestowitzYou can extend itNov 16 17:14
seller_liaropen street mapsNov 16 17:14
seller_liar I think I found the solution of problems in GNU / Linux and other free operating systemsNov 16 17:14
seller_liarI will post somedayNov 16 17:14
schestowitzThe footage of planet Earth is not free.Nov 16 17:14
schestowitzPeople buy and sell the planet. Google too...Nov 16 17:14
seller_liarPeople must stop to use these programsNov 16 17:15
trmancoseller_liar, is there some kind of marble for gnome?Nov 16 17:16
neighborleeI jsut can't believe the gnome team must deal with the likes of waugh, and that they even give him any credence I find astonishingNov 16 17:16
MinceRubuntu has failed at packaging marbleNov 16 17:17
neighborleeim glad to see rms though sticking up for FOSS,,of course this was a year ago, I have n o idea what he is doing 'today' o_0]Nov 16 17:17
MinceRit needs libgps.so.15 but installs libgps.so.16Nov 16 17:17
schestowitzneighborlee: he doesn't stick to FOSSNov 16 17:18
schestowitzHe sticks to Free softwareNov 16 17:18
MinceRit's a pretty stupid conflictNov 16 17:18
neighborleesighNov 16 17:18
schestowitzI managed to convince him to sort of start a campaign. You'll see.Nov 16 17:19
MinceRconsidering that free software and open source software are one and the sameNov 16 17:19
schestowitzI tend to agree with RMSNov 16 17:19
schestowitzPeople are taught that Ubuntu is "Linux", so they inherit the Linus mindsetNov 16 17:19
schestowitzSame with "Open source". Nothing about the phlosophy. Mixing is all cool, too...Nov 16 17:20
schestowitzThey already elbowed GNU and called it LinuxNov 16 17:20
schestowitzThen they kicked Free software, made OSI and made lots of money without explaining the rootsNov 16 17:20
trmancohttp://wikimapia.org/Nov 16 17:20
schestowitzMinceR: not anymore, they're not the sameNov 16 17:21
schestowitzLots of things that are labeled "open source" these days are not (Free software)Nov 16 17:21
MinceRlots of things that are labeled "open source" are not open source :>Nov 16 17:22
seller_liareven At& t is open source nowNov 16 17:22
seller_liarhttp://www.yoix.org/Nov 16 17:22
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mib_yvluie.Nov 16 17:22
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MinceRthese people fighting among themselves would do well to listen to Bruce Perens sometime.Nov 16 17:23
seller_liarDid you KnowNov 16 17:23
schestowitzI'm not fightingNov 16 17:23
schestowitzThere are some who do.Nov 16 17:23
seller_liarThe free opensource movements does not really know the true potential of communityNov 16 17:24
schestowitzThe ritual of money-making is better known.Nov 16 17:25
schestowitzI shoed neighborlee a video I was sent yesterday.Nov 16 17:25
schestowitzVery funny (someone mailed me this): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FWWr...Nov 16 17:25
schestowitzbblNov 16 17:31
twitterCongratulations to  Anivar Aravind for standing up to Novell.Nov 16 17:34
twitter:)Nov 16 17:34
neighborleeoh ?Nov 16 17:40
neighborleehmm I saw him in here yesterday and wondered what he was up to ;)Nov 16 17:40
neighborleeurl ?Nov 16 17:40
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twitterthe above, http://playingwithsid.blogspot.com/2008/11/bo...Nov 16 17:44
neighborleeah ic , thats what he meant about the charge sheet.Nov 16 17:48
neighborleego him :)Nov 16 17:49
neighborleeLOL< they even closed the recurring thread!..wow are they ever running scared ;))Nov 16 17:52
neighborleehttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t...Nov 16 17:52
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neighborleehttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=8816... < as soon as saulgoode reasoned that m r jefferson " Would not Mr Jefferson's words be applicable to both critics and supporters of Mono alike? In fact I should think using a dismissive term such as "FUD" and ridiculing the opinions of another as "parroting" are pretty indicative of NOT willing to engage in reasoned discussion." , then smartboyat home 'suggestedNov 16 18:01
neighborlee' it be closed and well..it was..so much for reasoned discourse..I guess when the going gets rough ( or their perceptin of rough), some just get going LOLNov 16 18:01
twitterSlashdot uncritically published the clickstream "study"  http://tech.slashdot.org/art...Nov 16 18:13
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trmancohttp://studenten.freepage.de/meph/mix/p...Nov 16 18:21
trmancoheavy javascript testNov 16 18:21
trmancomore eyecandy on the way http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/c...Nov 16 18:28
trmancooficial freebsd forum: http://www.freebsd.org/news/news...Nov 16 18:38
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neighborleehttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthrea... < and another closed thread ;)Nov 16 19:48
neighborleeas if anyone thought ubuntu was the premiere fair foss linux advocate..know we all know better.Nov 16 19:49
schestowitztwitter: CWMike, eh? Microsoft man submitted it.Nov 16 20:21
trmancohttp://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenI...Nov 16 20:26
schestowitzYes, I know.Nov 16 20:28
neighborleeyeah , that same groklaw article that I  noted and hex thouht was irrelevant ;))Nov 16 20:30
*pk_ is now known as PetoKrausNov 16 20:30
schestowitzneighborlee: it's not Groklaw, it's the SFLC.Nov 16 20:31
neighborleeyeah I know,,I meant the referring url http://www.groklaw.net/article.php...Nov 16 20:31
neighborleesorry wasn't clearNov 16 20:31
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trmancohttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,452348,...Nov 16 21:53
trmanco"Another major international financial institution has had its computer system attacked by unknown cyber-hackers, FOX News has learned."Nov 16 21:53
schestowitzJust one? :-)Nov 16 21:55
trmancothey use Windows btw http://uptime.netcraft.com/...Nov 16 21:56
trmanco1 datacentre :-PNov 16 21:57
schestowitzNo surprising. That also says something about professionals they employ (minset) Disclosures being as they are (and based on a study from 2008), there's lots more that say nothing about it in public. The Whitehouse and World Banked got cracked recently as well. The Pentagon is moving to GNU/Linux now.Nov 16 21:57
trmancoI hope they have learned a lesson :-PNov 16 21:57
schestowitz1 datacentre, eh? One day the search results in Live will go wonky. You'll ask why and they'll tell you that the datacentre became a zombie army of some gang in China.Nov 16 21:58
trmancoLOLNov 16 21:59
schestowitzMainframes running Windows got hijacked. Supercomputers... well, Windows just never runs on them, so..Nov 16 22:00
trmancoactuallyNov 16 22:01
trmancoI think it runs on 1Nov 16 22:01
schestowitzAttack Unleashed for New Microsoft Mainframe Bug: "Hackers have released code that could be used to take control of a server  running Microsoft's Host Integration Server 2006, used to connect mainframe  applications to Windows PCs." http://www.pcworld.com/articl...Nov 16 22:01
trmancoof those top 500Nov 16 22:01
schestowitz1 or 2 (percent?)... yes. Some try and go back to GNU/Linux. Microsoft can use incentives too.Nov 16 22:02
trmanco5 computersNov 16 22:02
trmancoeh! 1%Nov 16 22:02
trmancohttp://www.top500.org/stats/list/31/osfamNov 16 22:03
trmancoLOL, they already patched 20 holes in 16 daysNov 16 22:04
trmancois this a record for them?Nov 16 22:04
schestowitzIt's an experiment for themNov 16 22:10
schestowitzThis was Gates' idea. Nov 16 22:10
schestowitzHe ran away from Microsoft realising that Windows was dying. Now he sees patent-trolling as a better busine$.Nov 16 22:10
trmancook, so this is spookyNov 16 22:14
trmancofrom 8 banks of portugalNov 16 22:14
trmancoall of them use NT+IISNov 16 22:14
trmancoonly 1 has Linux+Apache+NT+IISNov 16 22:15
trmancohttp://www.microsoft.com/portugal/seguran...Nov 16 22:16
trmancothis last one is the most popular hereNov 16 22:17
schestowitzBank fraud is up sharply.Nov 16 22:18
schestowitzBanks tend to think that expensive = better. Same in the UK.Nov 16 22:19
schestowitzThe Bank of India got OWNED last year... it ran Windows.Nov 16 22:19
schestowitzAnd there are other Windows-run banks that got HIJACKED.Nov 16 22:19
trmancois there any safe bank in the UK?Nov 16 22:20
trmancothis is the only one that maybe runs linux: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/gr...Nov 16 22:25
trmancobut it hasn't been updated in a whileNov 16 22:26
schestowitzA bigger is issue is zombie PCsNov 16 22:28
trmancotime to go, cyaNov 16 22:33
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twitterNo business that has Windoze on the desktop is safe.  The servers can all run OpenBSD, the bad guys will get in through the PHB's Outlook/Exchange idiocy.Nov 16 22:51
MinceRlolbsdNov 16 22:53
twitterI'm not familiar with that one.Nov 16 22:55
dsmith_biz's will run what costs moneyNov 16 22:55
dsmith_:PNov 16 22:55
twitteroh, it's costing them allright.Nov 16 22:55
schestowitzYesNov 16 22:55
schestowitzI saw something about this earlierNov 16 22:55
schestowitzLet me find it.Nov 16 22:55
schestowitzRecent:Nov 16 22:56
schestowitzWhat Comes After “Embrace, Extend”?Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz,----[ Quote ]Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| This is how it will go. Purely in order to “improve” the performance ofNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| Apache and Hadoop on the Windows platform, Microsoft will helpfully offerNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| some really cool hacks....which will of course only work on the WindowsNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| platform.Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz|Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| This will effectively fork the Apache/Hadoop/whatever code – all for the goodNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| of their communities. Of course, there may be some “patented” technologies inNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| there, but Microsoft will promise never, ever to sue anyone usingNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| this “optimised” open source – cross its heart and hope to die. Look forNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| Microsoft to get involved with other leading open source projects in the sameNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| way.Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz`----Nov 16 22:56
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworlduk.com/community/b...Nov 16 22:56
schestowitzMicrosoft and ApacheNov 16 22:56
schestowitz,----[ Quote ]Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| It all sounds good. But Apache is no threat to Microsoft, their projects runNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| on Microsoft systems and their license doesn't prevent "embrace and enhance".Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| Linux, GNU, OpenOffice, those are more of a threat. This is, obviously, aNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| strategic move by Microsoft. I'm trying to convince myself that weNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| didn't "get owned".Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz`----Nov 16 22:56
schestowitzhttp://technocrat.net/d/2008/7/25/46596Nov 16 22:56
schestowitzBruce Perens: Microsoft and Apache - What's the Angle?Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz,----[ Quote ]Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| But Microsoft can still influence how things go from here on. If they have toNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| live with open source, the Apache project is Microsoft's preferred direction.Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| Apache doesn't use the dreaded GPL and its enforced sharing of source-code.Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| Instead, the Apache license is practically a no-strings gift, with a weakNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| provision against patent lawsuits as its most relevant term. Microsoft canNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| take Apache software and embrace and enhance, providing their own versions ofNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| the project's software with engineered incompatibility and no availableNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| source, just as they forced incompatibility into the Web by installing IENov 16 22:56
schestowitz| with every Windows upgrade.Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz|Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz| IE is derived from Mosaic, the original Web browser, open source with aNov 16 22:56
schestowitz| license similar to Apache's. So, this isn't a new strategyNov 16 22:56
schestowitzOOPS!!Nov 16 22:56
MinceRlolNov 16 22:56
schestowitzSurprise: CTOs Want To Pay For Open Source : http://www.informationweek.com...Nov 16 22:56
MinceRmore promises from m$Nov 16 22:56
schestowitz"The single thing that struck me the most was the note that CTOs have a perception -- valid or not, it scarcely matters -- that it's difficult and  potentially legally thorny for them to contribute code back. They'd rather just contribute money, whether in the form of licensing proprietary bits or  just paying for expanded features ("Hey, can you write an Outlook connector  for this?"), perhaps as an adjunct to their existing suppoNov 16 22:57
schestowitzrt contracts."Nov 16 22:57
schestowitzThey need to produce and show bills to Bill'sNov 16 22:57
schestowitz Legality of Fedora in production environment < http://www.redhat.com/archives/f... >Nov 16 22:57
schestowitz"Recently the appropriate laws in my country (Russia) have been significantly toughened. Now the police can check for illegal software  usage by their own initiative (without request from the owner). The tax inspection demands that software should be registered at  accounts departments"Nov 16 22:58
schestowitzWhat about selling free software : http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/bl...Nov 16 22:58
schestowitz"Gervase Markham, the Mozilla Foundation's licensing officer, in an article in the Times Online, talks about being questioned by a northern UK Trading License Officer about giving away software. The trading officer was concerned by a group that was burning the free Mozilla Browser on CDs and selling it."Nov 16 22:59
dsmith_I was this |.| close from deploying ubuntu in the office, but our CFO stepped in as him coming from a large corporation of 12K employees, he changed the mind of the owner and told him that you don't just NOT use MS in bizNov 16 23:02
dsmith_so anything and everything is OS is blackballedNov 16 23:02
dsmith_he also brought up liability reason....ya know the "so-called" IP BSNov 16 23:02
MinceRshow them the BSD-licensed stuff in m$ products thenNov 16 23:02
dsmith_dont wont understand thatNov 16 23:03
MinceR:(Nov 16 23:03
dsmith_yeaNov 16 23:03
twittersorry, you CFO is a tool.Nov 16 23:03
dsmith_hzhaahahaNov 16 23:03
dsmith_oh I know that..Nov 16 23:04
dsmith_wait till I give my presentation on my laptopNov 16 23:05
dsmith_:PNov 16 23:05
schestowitzLiability?Nov 16 23:05
dsmith_he read the article in fortune magazineNov 16 23:05
schestowitzdsmith_: was it related to GPL liabilities or something like Microsoft's insult?Nov 16 23:05
dsmith_mNov 16 23:05
schestowitzReally? That Microsoft placement?Nov 16 23:05
dsmith_MSNov 16 23:05
schestowitzBast*rds.Nov 16 23:05
dsmith_yea, so-called IP articleNov 16 23:05
schestowitzI bet Microsoft points people at it too.Nov 16 23:05
schestowitzArticles were written how it was composed to dramatize.Nov 16 23:06
dsmith_on another subject, but related: I asked by someone if they overwrite thier windows drive with Linux, would MS get mad at themNov 16 23:06
dsmith_I *was* askedNov 16 23:07
schestowitzBy whom? A senior?Nov 16 23:13
schestowitzWhat is this, "Microsoft karma"? Like the hardware is tracking what you do and emits a dancing monkey with a baseball bat if you install Free software?Nov 16 23:14
dsmith_no a customer.. I was showing linux toNov 16 23:15
dsmith_lolNov 16 23:15
dsmith_thats a good line thoughNov 16 23:15
schestowitzBiggest BS I've read since "Apple should buy AMD/Adobe": http://www.palluxo.com/2008/11/16/m... ( Microsoft Said No, But Apple May Move to Buy Yahoo )Nov 16 23:17
schestowitzHeck, IBM should buy Google and Georgia should buy Russia, too.Nov 16 23:17
schestowitzThe news about Microsoft is totally empty from the word "Vista". It's like everyone ran away from that 'party'. It's a dirty word now. Amazing.Nov 16 23:18
schestowitzThe only stories that mention Vista are about the Intel/Microsoft crimes (unsealed court docs)Nov 16 23:18
schestowitztwitter: Microsoft Documents Vista SP1 Failures < http://rcpmag.com/blogs/weblog.... > (For failurelog?)Nov 16 23:19
MinceRwe wouldn't have this micro$oft/crApple mess if people who don't know anything about IT wouldn't be allowed to make IT-related decisionsNov 16 23:20
twittercould be....Nov 16 23:20
schestowitzhttp://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto... "Microsoft gave media and developers a first look at Windows 7 last month at its Professional Developers Conference in Los Angeles, and first impressions are mostly positive."Nov 16 23:25
schestowitzSee what they did there?Nov 16 23:25
schestowitzBribe some bloggers, then link to them saying that they like it.Nov 16 23:25
schestowitzNewspapers then say that it's received positively. Manufactured praise.Nov 16 23:26
schestowitzBacked also by the likes of people's whose career is one thing: Windows < http://www.computerworld.com/action/artic... >Nov 16 23:26
schestowitzThe media is BROKEN.Nov 16 23:26
schestowitzIt's corruptible. Easily. That's how it's run these days.Nov 16 23:27
twittershame.Nov 16 23:27
twitterbut that's why no one trusts them anymoreNov 16 23:27
twitterThe driver installation failures are interesting but M$ left themselves enough room to blame users and makers.  We don't know if all of the drivers were "certified" for Vista or not, so M$ can blame the user.  Even when the user is right, M$ can point their finger at the OEM.Nov 16 23:30
schestowitzBut the issue is different. Microsoft is corrupting the blogosphere too now, e.g. with laptops.Nov 16 23:30
twitterThey can only corrupt a few sellouts.  People can tell the difference.Nov 16 23:30
schestowitzThis was foreseen as some years ago BillG decided to use bloggers as his Slog vector.Nov 16 23:30
twitter25 years ago he learned how by corrupting Byte magazine.Nov 16 23:31
schestowitzHe didn't say it like that (Slog), but it's clear now that Microsoft rewards bloggers for sucking up. This is a fact. Lots of prooof.Nov 16 23:31
twitterI agree, but he can't bribe everyone.Nov 16 23:31
twitterbblNov 16 23:31
schestowitzSorry for taking out this frustration in IRC, but it's virtually impossible to even read 'news' feeds nowadays. You have to profile them based on evidence (people *and* publications). You create mental filters as you go along based on things like conflicting interests, former employers, laptop bribes, etc. You can't trust anything you read. It's gut feelings...Nov 16 23:35
schestowitzMicrosoft-Motorola potential conflict: "More than a year after the surprise resignation of Microsoft Corp.'s chief executive of greater China, on Thursday the software giant named former Motorola Inc. executive Simon Leung to oversee a key market that is fraught with both great commercial promise and potential political hazard."Nov 16 23:36
schestowitzhttp://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...Nov 16 23:36
schestowitzSince Moto chooses Linux (LiMo than Android), this is worth watching. Motorola also left the door open for Windows Mobile, so this appointment is curious for its role.Nov 16 23:37
schestowitzWSJ is feeding scum: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1...Nov 16 23:40
schestowitzdsmith_: to show you how close Fotune and Microsoft are (same owners): Former Time Exec Joins Microsoft < http://www.mediapost.com/publicat... >Nov 16 23:45
dsmith_btw, I d/l/d and installed win7, and activated itNov 16 23:46
dsmith_it is basically Vista SP2Nov 16 23:46
schestowitzOf course.Nov 16 23:47
dsmith_no innovationNov 16 23:47
schestowitzThey hardly did any coding.Nov 16 23:47
dsmith_thats what I saidNov 16 23:47
schestowitzThey only began work when they realise that Vista was tanking.Nov 16 23:47
schestowitzInstead of SP2 they started renaming and changing the UINov 16 23:47
schestowitzCllchin regretted making SP1 and 2 of XP... saying they should have rebranded these. Vista 7 is Vista + some more code... same ad foundation though.Nov 16 23:48
schestowitzThey promise to make it more modular in Longhorn days, but failed to deliver.. Allchin and Poole quit.. Valentine too... all the Windows chiefs are out.Nov 16 23:48
dsmith_i just do not see MS being the sole big player as they once wereNov 16 23:49
dsmith_I was in a Apple store the other dayNov 16 23:49
dsmith_it was packedNov 16 23:49
dsmith_it always is..Nov 16 23:49
dsmith_best buy/ and the other stores that have Vista on laptops, not a sole..Nov 16 23:49
schestowitzMicrosoft has sunk very low.. to hiring the media < http://www.reuters.com/article/mar... > or paying it for wishful thinking.Nov 16 23:49
schestowitzBest Buy... they they not lay off a lot recently?Nov 16 23:50
schestowitzOr closed shops? I could remember wrongly.Nov 16 23:50
dsmith_circuit city is done withNov 16 23:50
dsmith_best buy is still aroundNov 16 23:51
dsmith_I rarely go in thereNov 16 23:51
schestowitzZDNET.microsoft.com on Microsoft buying the man who shilled for them: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,100...Nov 16 23:51
dsmith_when I do I cary a couple linux cd's and boot from them on laptopsNov 16 23:51
schestowitzCompUSA is also in the corner.Nov 16 23:52
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@CPE-60-231-153-91.static.qld.bigpond.net.au) has joined #boycottnovellNov 16 23:52
schestowitzEconomics of everything change. People drive less (public transportation replaces that), they spend less on software and keep the old PCs.Nov 16 23:53
schestowitzIf shops don't adapt to it (they try sub-notebooks now), they get no business. The Apple shops and Eee stores get their lunch...Nov 16 23:53
schestowitzUS Justice is so bizarre sometimes.. http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/s... ( Judge hears $2-billion lawsuit against Wal-Mart, Microsoft over brain control )Nov 16 23:54
dsmith_compusa is goneNov 16 23:54
dsmith_hmmmNov 16 23:56
dsmith_brain-machine interface is realNov 16 23:56
dsmith_BMINov 16 23:56
MinceRBody Mass Index?Nov 16 23:56
dsmith_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-co...Nov 16 23:58
schestowitzdsmith_: been real for a while. Monkeys can move limps with thoughts.Nov 16 23:58
schestowitz*limbsNov 16 23:58
MinceRlolNov 16 23:58
schestowitzApple introduces DRM-enabled brain interfaces... can't move it between devices (brains)Nov 16 23:59
schestowitzWith AI you can make robot autonomous... no need for human brain to 'control' them.Nov 16 23:59

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