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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 3rd, 2009 - Part 1

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schestowitzNow he goes after Oracle.. but never ever criticises Microsoft. Just Apple, Google... anything but Novell's ally that's a criminal company.Feb 03 00:00
schestowitzø per second: 90.53Feb 03 00:05
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/02/o... This is not good. They'll be pushed towards another stack/formats/platform/etc.Feb 03 00:07
schestowitzYahoo Halts Ads In RSS Program < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009... >Feb 03 00:20
schestowitzVery good.Feb 03 00:24
schestowitzGoogle released Googleearth5 to Linux at the same time as other platforms. That's progress: http://earth.google.com/intl/en/d...Feb 03 00:24
schestowitz"After a  single forward slash  caused  worldwide trouble  for the world's most popular search engine on Saturday, analysts started wondering aloud whether Google 's rabid users may seriously consider some search alternatives." http://www.pcworld.com/article/158754...Feb 03 00:27
NeonFlossI finally tried out/halfswitched to linux about a week and a half agoFeb 03 00:33
NeonFlossive been missing so much for so longFeb 03 00:33
NeonFlossI wrote about but probobly nothing interesting to you guysFeb 03 00:34
NeonFlossim going to throw it in here anyways http://www.blogpirate.org/2009/02/01/te...Feb 03 00:34
NeonFloss;)Feb 03 00:35
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 03 00:36
oiaohmHmm Linux Hater is back.  Just as insulting as as the past.   At least his topics have some base compared to Linux Hater redux that are basically base less.Feb 03 00:38
oiaohmschestowitz: looks like site is back to normal?Feb 03 00:47
schestowitzoiaohm: he's not backFeb 03 00:47
schestowitzRedux is the real oneFeb 03 00:47
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, let me pasteFeb 03 00:48
schestowitz "Thank you for your reply and for choosing HostDime for all of your web hosting needs. I hope we can continue to provide you with excellent services and prices now and in the future. If you may ever have any future comments or questions, please do not hesitate to submit a ticket or post in our community forums."Feb 03 00:48
schestowitz "I have repaired the issue with the database 'boycottn_wrdp1'. The permissions were set were to your database folder on the server once that was fixed I was able to run the check database and repair database tool in cpanel. This did find some errors and corrected all of them. Please let us know if this has not solved the issue since we do have a backup from February 1st at 2:24am EST time which we can restore from."Feb 03 00:48
schestowitzNeonFloss: that's excellent, thanks!Feb 03 00:49
NeonFlosshehFeb 03 00:50
oiaohmOk that is warped.Feb 03 00:50
oiaohmPartly.Feb 03 00:50
oiaohmI guess it was as I though reset part way threw write an mysql left it locked.Feb 03 00:50
oiaohmAnd minorlly damaged.Feb 03 00:51
oiaohmNormal system admin tech they did not say what crashed the server.Feb 03 00:52
oiaohmI would be asking that question incase they do have a standard reset time for kernel updates.Feb 03 00:53
oiaohmhttp://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/  << This blog is back active schestowitzFeb 03 00:54
oiaohmSo we have redux and first both running side by side.Feb 03 00:54
oiaohmFirst Linux Hater is not anti-linux all the time any more either.  One of the new posts even has a answer from him defending Linux in a particular area.Feb 03 00:55
schestowitzoiaohm: I don't read his blogFeb 03 00:55
schestowitzhe trolled us, sort ofFeb 03 00:55
schestowitzoiaohm: would there be gain from finding out what caused the crash (to me, not them)?Feb 03 00:56
oiaohmIf there was part of standard operation when not to write to databaseFeb 03 00:56
oiaohmAnd maybe a time to disable writes leading upto it so this don't happen again.Feb 03 00:57
oiaohmIf it was something pure random nothing much can be done of courseFeb 03 00:57
NeonFlosslinux hater is leader of the closed source community hehFeb 03 00:58
oiaohmNot really.Feb 03 00:58
oiaohmThis year I think they will find out he has never been closed source as such from all the times I have talked to him.Feb 03 00:59
oiaohmOne of these people who thinks being anti get attention.Feb 03 01:00
oiaohmBeing on topic is far more important than insulting.Feb 03 01:01
schestowitzoiaohm: good point.Feb 03 01:03
NeonFlossyeaFeb 03 01:03
NeonFloss^ I added that to my quote database "One of these people who thinks being anti get attention. Being on topic is far more important than insulting." -oiaohmFeb 03 01:04
oiaohmReal world name if you wnat it NeonFloss is Peter DoldingFeb 03 01:05
NeonFlosssureFeb 03 01:06
oiaohmOf course most online people know me as oiaohmFeb 03 01:06
NeonFlossmy database is just a casual one - its got some wise, interesting, wierd things in itFeb 03 01:06
NeonFlossone day ill publish itFeb 03 01:06
NeonFlossone day hehFeb 03 01:06
NeonFloss;)Feb 03 01:06
oiaohmoiaohm=Ok I Am Over Here MateFeb 03 01:06
NeonFlosshehFeb 03 01:07
NeonFlossniceFeb 03 01:07
schestowitz"Judge Thomas Penfield Jackson, shortly after issuing his rulings of law, and just before releasing the final remedy judgment told a reporter that, based on the evidence presented in the case, Microsoft's top executives were criminals and should face criminal prosecution."Feb 03 01:13
schestowitzI didn't know it was an acronym.Feb 03 01:14
oiaohmIt came out of frustration.  One day I way trying to log into sites and all my common usernames were taken.Feb 03 01:15
schestowitzWell, at least it's a unique tokeFeb 03 01:15
schestowitz*tokenFeb 03 01:15
schestowitzI can find stuff using my surname, which is useful for tracking stuff I remember saying publicly on the World Wibble WibbleFeb 03 01:16
oiaohmMy problem is my surname and first name combination is not uncommon.Feb 03 01:17
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&...Feb 03 01:17
oiaohmYep I kinda get all over the placeFeb 03 01:18
oiaohmAnd that is only since 2000Feb 03 01:18
oiaohmMy pre 2000 stuff was under a different username.Feb 03 01:18
oiaohmIn my youth I had the stupid idea that a good virus would be buildable.   Age there is no such thing as a good computer virus.Feb 03 01:20
schestowitzoiaohm: what's your take on Dana Blankenhorn?Feb 03 01:25
schestowitzLike 80% of his headline are OSS-hostile. No wonder though, he doesn't even use OSS.Feb 03 01:25
schestowitzMight be /dev/null-bound, mefiguresFeb 03 01:26
oiaohmHe falls in that camp of Microsoft Cult member brain washed to a point he don't think for himself any more.Feb 03 01:27
oiaohmThere are Open Source Cult members as well.Feb 03 01:28
schestowitzBased on pesonal opinion?Feb 03 01:28
oiaohmBased on my peronal opinion from his actions.Feb 03 01:28
schestowitzAnother one is Thom at OSNewsFeb 03 01:28
schestowitzIt's like Microsoft bought him or somethingFeb 03 01:28
oiaohmThom is more bought still thinking.Feb 03 01:29
schestowitzOSNews become a whorehouse for Windows Vista/Vista7/XPFeb 03 01:29
schestowitzI'll dump those feeds into the secondaryFeb 03 01:29
schestowitzAfter like 2-3 years in my reading list. They got so much worse, that's all..Feb 03 01:29
oiaohmName the last time Dana Blankenhorn talked currectly about a flaw in an appliucations.Feb 03 01:29
oiaohmYou will be going.Feb 03 01:30
schestowitzEugena pretty much left OSNews..Feb 03 01:30
oiaohmI don't know of once.Feb 03 01:30
oiaohmThorn has talked correctly about flaws.Feb 03 01:30
oiaohmThis is the difference between cult and non cult.   The non cult are still producting correct information in some places.Feb 03 01:30
oiaohmJust bent to there way of seeing the world.Feb 03 01:31
schestowitzHe peddles vapourwareFeb 03 01:31
schestowitzAnd some of the Microsoft pretenseFeb 03 01:31
schestowitzEither he's gullible, but he ain't stupid enough for that, or he's bullish on the MS trainFeb 03 01:31
oiaohmThorn reports on up coming OS's accross Open Source and Closed.   So some vaporware is expected in that field.Feb 03 01:33
schestowitzThat site's direction in general is disappointing and it was a friend of mine who raised this issueFeb 03 01:37
schestowitzSo I know other people who've read it for years noticed this too... independently.Feb 03 01:37
schestowitzI don't find much useful stuff there anywayFeb 03 01:38
oiaohmhttp://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=3405  This one is a good example of Dana Blankenhorn bending.Feb 03 01:39
oiaohmIt has to be bad that closed source can run on open source devices.   Sorry that is exactly the rights the owner of the device wants to use it what ever they choose.Feb 03 01:40
oiaohmDana is far more suttle at undermining.Feb 03 01:40
schestowitzHe needs to provokeFeb 03 01:42
schestowitzHe used to be decent for a whileFeb 03 01:42
schestowitzThen he compalint he for no attention and commentsFeb 03 01:42
schestowitzThis puts his job at risFeb 03 01:42
schestowitzI think we discussed this earlierFeb 03 01:42
oiaohmMaybe I have not read old enough documents of his.Feb 03 01:44
schestowitzThere were periodsFeb 03 01:44
schestowitzPaula is OK, BUTFeb 03 01:44
schestowitzOccasionally she does the Microsoft party line... fake 'open source'Feb 03 01:44
schestowitzShe no longer seems to write for The Register (downgrade IMHO)Feb 03 01:45
schestowitzhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7865114.stmFeb 03 01:46
oiaohmDrivers with mobile phones is hell.  It was one the worse data recoverys I have had to do was a laptop from a car crash.Feb 03 01:52
oiaohmI really should not have asked what was on the laptop.Feb 03 01:52
oiaohmBoy does it take a while to put a web development framework back into one peice.Feb 03 02:23
schestowitzWhich one?Feb 03 02:23
oiaohmEclipse + Aptana + Flex 3 and 4Feb 03 02:26
schestowitzGoodFeb 03 02:26
oiaohmFirst half getting it setup for my 64 bit machineFeb 03 02:27
oiaohmSecound half getting it set up floating on my USB stick.Feb 03 02:27
oiaohmAptana I normally use alone this project kinda needs a little more than normal.Feb 03 02:29
schestowitzAdobe?? 64-bit. No way!Feb 03 02:29
oiaohmFlex 3 and 4 sdk are pure java.Feb 03 02:29
oiaohmSo they work fine.   Far better under 64 bit java.Feb 03 02:30
schestowitzThat too is notorious (well, has been till recenly)Feb 03 02:33
schestowitzSun Provides 64-bit Java Plug-In For Linux <  http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag... >Feb 03 02:33
schestowitz64-Bit Linux Adobe Flash Player: Surprisingly good < http://blogs.computerworld.com/64_bit_li... >Feb 03 02:33
schestowitzWhy There is Better Driver Support in 64-bit Linux Than 64-bit Windows XP < http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php... >Feb 03 02:33
oiaohm64 bit sun really good.Feb 03 02:34
oiaohmOk Linux has had 64 bit support for Longer.Feb 03 02:34
oiaohmMain stream.Feb 03 02:34
oiaohm32 bit flash player works quite OK on Linux threw the wrapper to 64 firefoxFeb 03 02:35
schestowitzYes, so I've heardFeb 03 02:37
*schestowitz uses a 64-bit machine, but on 32-bit build -- for nowFeb 03 02:37
oiaohmI am supprised no 128 bit cpu types have appeared yet.Feb 03 02:39
schestowitzGiven adoption rate of 64, can you blame them?Feb 03 02:39
schestowitzI don't even know about development complexity (chips, CAD, research)Feb 03 02:40
schestowitzGCC....Feb 03 02:40
oiaohmGcc is screwed internally.Feb 03 02:41
schestowitzCould pass short English sentences as intr' setFeb 03 02:41
oiaohmGcc optimiser does not apply when linking.Feb 03 02:42
oiaohmYep most programs have more than one object file making them up.  So Linux really should be running as a snail compared to windows.Feb 03 02:42
oiaohmMSVC does optimise on Linking.Feb 03 02:43
oiaohmIt makes it funny that Linux can out bench mark windows at doing things.Feb 03 02:43
oiaohmHmm flex 4 is a smaller download than flex 3Feb 03 02:47
schestowitzoiaohm: maybe depends on casesFeb 03 02:50
schestowitzgcc is super versatileFeb 03 02:50
schestowitzI've used it to compile c, c++, other stuff... Intel invests a lot in improving it for self gain.Feb 03 02:50
oiaohmNo does not depend on cases.Feb 03 02:51
oiaohmUntil gcc gets a link time optmiser it cannot optimise completely.Feb 03 02:51
oiaohmportland group complier verse gcc is just embarsing.Feb 03 02:51
oiaohmNormally the portland built version of program is half the size.Feb 03 02:51
oiaohmAnd it runs rings out gcc produced program same source.Feb 03 02:52
oiaohmgcc is verstile but major design flaw as done at start where they split binutils and gcc.  Its the wrong place.Feb 03 02:54
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The_Mad_HatterEveningFeb 03 02:55
schestowitzEvening, SirFeb 03 02:56
oiaohmHi The_Mad_HatterFeb 03 02:56
*r0ver (n=r0ver@200-122-96-173.cab.prima.net.ar) has left #boycottnovellFeb 03 02:56
The_Mad_HatterI take it our MS buddy left?Feb 03 02:57
schestowitzYesFeb 03 02:57
*jose (n=jose@98.64.59.215) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 03 02:57
schestowitzHe got upsetFeb 03 02:57
The_Mad_HatterROFLMAO - off course, he can't handle the truth.Feb 03 02:57
oiaohmSo I missed on MS person to pound what a pitty.Feb 03 02:58
The_Mad_HatterYeah. Almost felt sorry for him, he was just so clueless.Feb 03 02:59
oiaohmSo not like on of the lead developer of reactos.Feb 03 03:00
oiaohmWho did know something.Feb 03 03:00
oiaohmGot really pissed when he could not pin me.Feb 03 03:01
schestowitzReactOS... blechFeb 03 03:01
oiaohmNote debating Linux kernel design vs Windows Kernel design with him.Feb 03 03:01
schestowitzToo close to the VoleFeb 03 03:01
oiaohmLasted 3 days and it was interesting.Feb 03 03:01
oiaohmAll I can say is MS took a really good design in NT and stuffed it up.Feb 03 03:02
The_Mad_HatterWe will never convince some people of what MS is. We can however do what the watergate burglers did.Feb 03 03:02
oiaohmOk compared to what Linux is becoming NT design is going to be lacking.Feb 03 03:02
oiaohmNT kernel at its base is a Real Time kernel.Feb 03 03:03
oiaohmYet some stupid bugger introducted spinlocks into it jaming the real time kernel completely up.Feb 03 03:03
oiaohmSo I would not be supprissed if Reactos does not end up running rings around windows as well.Feb 03 03:04
The_Mad_HatterFrom one point of view, that isn't an issue. What is at issue is breaking the monopoly.Feb 03 03:04
oiaohmwhat is the point of breaking the monoploy if what replaces it does not work.Feb 03 03:05
joseschestowitz, i wrote up a few comparison cases (very simple, no patent or api details.. just high level stuff) on the ways patents and apis can interact (4 cases). I use tetris as an example.Feb 03 03:06
The_Mad_HatterI see your point - my thought is that others are working on that.Feb 03 03:06
joseok.. now that is a side show for now because i'll rewrite it and find a way to clean it in the final write-up.Feb 03 03:06
josea whole new draft i just started begins.... [want me to post it here for comment... ? ]Feb 03 03:07
oiaohmI am one also who takes part in debates about Linux and freedesktop future The_Mad_HatterFeb 03 03:07
The_Mad_HatterWhat I did today is download about 4.5 gigs of GPL software for Windows, and I'm going to make up a nice set of menus, and burn it all to DVD, and give them away.Feb 03 03:07
oiaohmOne of the big things I want people to give up that Linux has a Desktop.Feb 03 03:07
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oiaohmX11 desktops kinda will work everywhere.Feb 03 03:08
The_Mad_Hatteryou can even run them on windowsFeb 03 03:08
oiaohmAnd in time KDE 4.x will work every so OS under is going to get less important from a training point of view.Feb 03 03:08
oiaohmTeach them KDE install KDE then they can use what ever OS they like.Feb 03 03:08
oiaohmOf course KDE 4.x need to get to KDE 4.4 or 4.5 to be into optmisation state.Feb 03 03:09
The_Mad_HatterThat I'll try later. Right now I'm offering them free office, games, etc.Feb 03 03:09
oiaohmKDE 4.x is not good enough for windows yet.Feb 03 03:10
The_Mad_HatterIdea is to get them used to not using Microsoft, and to looking for GPL software.Feb 03 03:11
oiaohmKDE 4.2 it does run but things like taskmanager and the bar with running processes is missing.Feb 03 03:11
oiaohmMS is looking at Linux as a threat.Feb 03 03:12
joseever consider giving out a live linux cd with website info on it where you can be reached if they are interested.. or give out videos or just the website.Feb 03 03:12
oiaohmThe threat is really desktops rendered not important.Feb 03 03:12
joseThe_Mad_Hatter...Feb 03 03:12
oiaohmjose normally too big of a jump at first.Feb 03 03:12
josea video and websiteFeb 03 03:12
jose?Feb 03 03:12
oiaohmIf users are using open source applications when they jump accross they have something they know on the other side.Feb 03 03:12
oiaohmThey are more likely to stay using Linux.Feb 03 03:13
oiaohmI have coverted quite a few.  Best covert there apps then there OS.Feb 03 03:13
joseideally you could just install and let them play but that doesn't work when you meet someone on the street.. though if you strike a small relationship, then it gets more interesting.Feb 03 03:13
The_Mad_HatterYeah, thought of that. Most of the people I'll be working with aren't techies thought, and that might be a bit too muchFeb 03 03:13
joseand if you have a laptop to demoFeb 03 03:13
oiaohmjose one bad experence and they can be hard to get back on Linux.Feb 03 03:13
The_Mad_HatterYep, convert the apps, and then the OS is what I think. Hell, it's the path I took.Feb 03 03:14
oiaohmNow if they know the apps bad experienes are way less.Feb 03 03:14
The_Mad_HatterRoy, you still here?Feb 03 03:14
josewhat if foss doesn't really run well on windows?Feb 03 03:14
josethey have firefox alreadyFeb 03 03:14
oiaohmYou pick applications taht do.Feb 03 03:14
The_Mad_Hatterfoss runs real well on WindowsFeb 03 03:14
The_Mad_HatterBetter often than Microsoft crud.Feb 03 03:15
The_Mad_HatterRoy?Feb 03 03:15
oiaohmIts like if I asked you to build a 100 percent secure server from nothing jose and gave you the books.Feb 03 03:15
joseusing an installation don't require techiesFeb 03 03:15
The_Mad_HatterYou still having hosting problems?Feb 03 03:15
josewhat are you talking about?Feb 03 03:15
oiaohmIt would scare the crap out of most people joseFeb 03 03:15
The_Mad_Hatteryeah. it would scare them. so move them over slowly.Feb 03 03:16
oiaohmWith secuirty you start 1 part at a time.Feb 03 03:16
oiaohmOf course normally starting at kernel working up.Feb 03 03:16
josematt asay's new piece (which i don't like too much) mentions how php would not run on windows without microsoft intervention. much foss is designed for posix environments.Feb 03 03:16
oiaohmWith desktop users you have to work the other way.Feb 03 03:16
oiaohmThe truth is MS NT is ment to be a posixFeb 03 03:17
joselinux is not difficultFeb 03 03:17
oiaohmMS has screwed up so many functions stuff don't work correctly anymore.Feb 03 03:17
The_Mad_Hatterjose - most personal use stuff works fine. Web stuff is different/Feb 03 03:17
oiaohmjose its not difficult is different.Feb 03 03:17
josemany people don't use computers that muchFeb 03 03:17
oiaohmDifferent scares people if they don't have something familer to grab hold of.Feb 03 03:17
joseyou are talking about power users i thinkFeb 03 03:18
oiaohmNow people without computr experince going straight into Linux is not a problem.Feb 03 03:18
joseweb is familiarFeb 03 03:18
oiaohmIe coverting there apps give them a safty blanet to hold on to.Feb 03 03:18
josemost use of computer is either extremely limited or for webFeb 03 03:18
oiaohmYes I still know how to do things thing.Feb 03 03:18
oiaohmJose what would happen if I droped you on a totally new OS you had never seen before.Feb 03 03:19
oiaohmHow well do you think you would go joseFeb 03 03:19
joseshow me the basics.. linux gui immitates the basics quite wellFeb 03 03:19
josekde is very customizableFeb 03 03:19
oiaohmI am not talking Linux.Feb 03 03:20
josewindows was new to me onceFeb 03 03:20
josei learned because i needed the appsFeb 03 03:20
oiaohmI am talking a envorment where you know none of the applications names.Feb 03 03:20
joseif people desire foss apps on linux they will test the waters and go a little deeper etcFeb 03 03:20
oiaohmNow would it not be simpler to go back to somewhere you know something.Feb 03 03:20
schestowitzjose: that sounds good (the comparisonFeb 03 03:20
oiaohmThis is what I am getting at by coverting there apps they know something.Feb 03 03:20
joseyou will never convert someone by appealing to their most laziest or fearfulness-estFeb 03 03:21
joseyou motivateFeb 03 03:21
The_Mad_HatterOne problem - we have to assume that we are dealing with newbiesFeb 03 03:21
oiaohmjose it is easier to motivate if they can see ways forwards.Feb 03 03:21
joseschestowitz.. let me post what might be the intro (it seems decent)...Feb 03 03:21
oiaohmThat there is light at end to tunnel.Feb 03 03:21
josevideos and moreFeb 03 03:21
oiaohmDroping them accross without apps they find it really hard to see that.Feb 03 03:21
The_Mad_Hatterschestowitz - still having hosting problems? I may have a suggestion.Feb 03 03:22
josetest machine is idealFeb 03 03:22
josebut that is not always doable for obvious reasonsFeb 03 03:22
schestowitzThe_Mad_Hatter: show them CompizFeb 03 03:22
oiaohmI have never needed the test machine.Feb 03 03:22
oiaohmFor everyone I coverted so far.Feb 03 03:22
oiaohmits about a 3 to 6 month cycle.Feb 03 03:22
oiaohmThey willling go accross no pushing no effort.Feb 03 03:22
josewell if you have something that works greatFeb 03 03:22
oiaohmIts a paternFeb 03 03:23
schestowitzThe_Mad_Hatter: no hosting problems for now.Feb 03 03:23
oiaohmCovert there appsFeb 03 03:23
josei would not spend time that could be done improving linux+foss working on windows compatFeb 03 03:23
*schestowitz still catches upFeb 03 03:23
The_Mad_Hatterschestowitz - Compiz would scare them - what they need is something that they can run without changing OS to start.Feb 03 03:23
oiaohmThey get to knwo that free open source is good then want to try more and more and more.Feb 03 03:23
oiaohmThen one day they are asking to install Linux and they stay there.Feb 03 03:23
The_Mad_HatterSchestowitz - OK - if hosting gets to be an issue, the Pirate Bay runs their own hosting company, and I hear the prices are reasonable.Feb 03 03:24
oiaohmIts getting the started is the important bits and avoiding big failures along the way.Feb 03 03:24
schestowitzjose: many people just confine "computer" to very few tasksFeb 03 03:24
josewell oiaohm, that sounds ok. so a handful of windows foss apps and that is it, right?Feb 03 03:24
The_Mad_Hatteroiaohm - yes, and to get them started do it in small steps. Open Office for example.Feb 03 03:24
schestowitzLike "click blue E, wait for MSN to load, put in username, click E-mails.."Feb 03 03:24
joseall the reason changing is not that big a dealFeb 03 03:24
schestowitzWith a live CD it's simpler (or live USB)... PCs are then universal to them.Feb 03 03:25
oiaohmDefine handful.Feb 03 03:25
oiaohmThe applications are normally pick to what they do.Feb 03 03:25
josethe problem i worry about with livecd is that getting online might now work right away.Feb 03 03:26
oiaohmOpenOffice is quite common.  I am choosing from over a list of 1000 applications.Feb 03 03:26
oiaohmThat is the other issueFeb 03 03:26
schestowitzThe_Mad_Hatter: we'll install quid or poundFeb 03 03:26
oiaohmLinux too fast something does not work and they go back.Feb 03 03:26
schestowitzCoral is not robust enough, but it's cheap and it helpsFeb 03 03:26
oiaohmGetting them to try again is extreamly hard.Feb 03 03:26
joseif you don't help the people, changing at any point in time is complexFeb 03 03:27
schestowitzThe_Mad_Hatter: compiz/fusion/beryl  (formerly) is part of the O/S.. like a featureFeb 03 03:27
joseif you help, it's doable.. don't take the motivation of trying new free stuff away from the motivation to do linuxFeb 03 03:27
The_Mad_Hatteroiaohm - if you have list send it to meFeb 03 03:27
schestowitzIt enables to show where Linux is ahead and different, a "wow" factorFeb 03 03:27
joseyou people need to adopt communities and entertain.. offer them vallueFeb 03 03:27
The_Mad_Hatterschestowitz - Compiz assumes hardware to run it, a lot don't have thatFeb 03 03:28
josethey will switch to take partFeb 03 03:28
joseotherwise they are confined to summaries and youtube videosFeb 03 03:28
schestowitzThe_Mad_Hatter: Pirate Bay has bad karma.Feb 03 03:28
schestowitzThey also go to court now (Swedish police)Feb 03 03:28
joseschestowitz, should I email you the intro or post here [hint.. pick one :-) ]Feb 03 03:29
schestowitzjose: that's what LUGs were forFeb 03 03:29
schestowitzjose: yes, please.Feb 03 03:30
joseyou can customize cds and fill them with some third party marketing material and get paid for giving them outFeb 03 03:30
The_Mad_Hatterschestowitz - Pirate Bay and hosting company are seperate entities. Also it is likely that PB's actions are legal, since they are the saem as GoogleFeb 03 03:30
schestowitzBut I go to bed nowFeb 03 03:30
schestowitz3:40 amFeb 03 03:30
The_Mad_Hatterschestowitz - when does Doctor Who start up again?Feb 03 03:30
josei'm trying to see if the intro is a gentle intro that won't confuse nondevsFeb 03 03:31
schestowitzThe_Mad_Hatter: I don't know.Feb 03 03:31
schestowitzgnFeb 03 03:31
josegnFeb 03 03:31
The_Mad_Hatterschestowitz - wife is from Stoke on Trent.Feb 03 03:31
oiaohmjose when I started out with Linux I was pushing to way too hard as well.Feb 03 03:32
joseoiaohm, people have problems with windows. a key is not linux or windows but if you are willing to help themFeb 03 03:32
oiaohmPeople are set in there ways joseFeb 03 03:32
joseso are you willing to support windows or linux.. that is the key to newbie success on platform XFeb 03 03:32
oiaohmI will support either.Feb 03 03:33
oiaohmI support Linux Mac Windows.Feb 03 03:33
oiaohmtry getting a Mac user to use windows and vice verse at times.Feb 03 03:33
josei support linux only.. windows for emergencies but it's an antideveloper/user platform.Feb 03 03:33
joseusers stuck on windows for various apps.. sure that is issueFeb 03 03:33
josethey can't switch completely in short time no matter whatFeb 03 03:34
The_Mad_HatterIf you want to convert people, you have to help the poor suckers on Windows,Feb 03 03:34
joseif windows is baren.. you help them on linuxFeb 03 03:34
josewhy would i want windows to be semi fruitful when it's such an anti-dev-user platform?Feb 03 03:34
joseseen their eula's and lack of flexibility?Feb 03 03:35
joseagain, users need not abandon windows.. they just need to have a good reason to want to use linux as well (and the ability to use it of course)Feb 03 03:35
joselike a second pc or a good livecd/usbstickFeb 03 03:36
josethose are my thoughts.Feb 03 03:36
josei would not support or port to windowsFeb 03 03:36
The_Mad_Hatterjose - yes, I have. And I won't use it myself. But the people I am trying to convert don't hate Microsoft like I do, and if I come across as a total jerk they won't listen.Feb 03 03:36
josedon't be a jerkFeb 03 03:36
josesupport windows for $$ to cover your pain but linux for free or for much lessFeb 03 03:37
joselinux has lower acquisition, creation,... costs so charge lessFeb 03 03:37
The_Mad_HatterI'm not. I'm helping them save money, with better software.Feb 03 03:37
joseor freeFeb 03 03:37
joselinux, right?Feb 03 03:37
josethe key is apps. create the apps for linux.Feb 03 03:38
josenot for windows.Feb 03 03:38
josepeople will follow the appsFeb 03 03:38
josemotivationFeb 03 03:38
The_Mad_Hatterjose - for me or you who can build a computer. These people buy a computer with an OS, and since Windows is the only OS most see in the stores, that's what they get. If they get smart enough to buy a Mac, I don't worry about them.Feb 03 03:38
jose"if they get smart enough..."Feb 03 03:38
josehelp them get smartFeb 03 03:38
josesell foss.. sell linuxFeb 03 03:39
The_Mad_HatterIf they get smart enough to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed I don't worry about them.Feb 03 03:39
josethey'll like youFeb 03 03:39
joseno jerkiness about itFeb 03 03:39
josesell linux sell foss, that is my pointFeb 03 03:39
josethe two go togetherFeb 03 03:39
The_Mad_HatterI am selling FOS. But I'm not telling them the truth about Microsoft, if I do, they'll think I'm crazy.Feb 03 03:39
josesell linux+foss.Feb 03 03:41
josesupport linux+foss for freeFeb 03 03:41
The_Mad_Hatterjose - one step at a time. If I can get them to use OO and Microsoft looses a sale, that's good.Feb 03 03:41
josethat is what people do when they want to grow a platform..Feb 03 03:42
josemicrosoft has hurdles (through their partners) in linux' pathFeb 03 03:42
joselike i said, if you support windows, you help windows and microsoft and foss attacksFeb 03 03:42
joseif you support linux, you help linux and fossFeb 03 03:43
josedon't mean to fight The_Mad_HatterFeb 03 03:43
josekeep doing what works for youFeb 03 03:43
The_Mad_Hatterjose - I'm quite happy to support Linux, it's just that the people I work with aren't ready to jump yet.Feb 03 03:44
josekeep eating ice cream in their face, and one day they too will want to try it.Feb 03 03:44
joselinux+foss = ice creamFeb 03 03:44
josewinfoss perversion is like spilling it on themFeb 03 03:45
jose:-PFeb 03 03:45
The_Mad_HatterHeh.Feb 03 03:45
josereally i don't mean to fight. ...I really just don't like to support Microsoft in any way. Monopolysoft and FOSS don't mixFeb 03 03:46
josegood luckFeb 03 03:46
josei came to see if roy was in the mood to read something.. seeing he is sleeping now, and i need to do similarly, i'll be leaving soon.Feb 03 03:47
The_Mad_HatterI should consider crashing too. Getting late here.Feb 03 03:47
josewell you and oiaohm, ...gnFeb 03 03:48
jose"you" -> "to you"Feb 03 03:48
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oiaohmBoy jose did not under stand that showing them foss is part of making the smart.Feb 03 04:12
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schestowitzMorning.Feb 03 09:14
ZiggyFishafternoonFeb 03 09:14
*schestowitz catches upFeb 03 09:15
schestowitz*LOL* " keep eating ice cream in their face, and one day they too will want to try it. linux+foss = ice cream"Feb 03 09:17
ZiggyFishlolFeb 03 09:17
ZiggyFishI use linux exclusively at workFeb 03 09:17
ZiggyFish(am the only one in the office that uses Linux(Ubuntu))Feb 03 09:18
schestowitzI just think of the programs... KDE and all. Many GNU/Linux distros come with that, so I'm hooked at home & work.Feb 03 09:18
schestowitzMandriva Spring Live CD in case I travel..Feb 03 09:18
ZiggyFishI keep showing them all the stuff Linux can do, and they are impressedFeb 03 09:19
schestowitzZiggyFish: the engineers at Fox all use UbuntuFeb 03 09:19
ZiggyFishdidn't know thatFeb 03 09:19
schestowitzUbuntu = you get work done; Windows = you try to keep the PC clean and the data safe from intruders (without much success)Feb 03 09:20
ZiggyFishyesFeb 03 09:20
schestowitzhttp://blog.eracc.com/2008/04/28/guess-wh...Feb 03 09:21
schestowitz"Mr. Denis stated that Fox News is now aware of the problem with  their Video page and is working with Maven Networks to get it fixed. Mr.  Denis also stated that most of the Fox News developers use Ubuntu. "Feb 03 09:21
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MinceRr4wrFeb 03 09:34
MinceR(offtopic) http://media.richarddawkins.net/i...Feb 03 09:50
schestowitz:-)Feb 03 09:52
ZiggyFish Today the Australian Government announced $42 Billion Recession plan. (which means that I get $950 in march from the government)Feb 03 09:52
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schestowitzMinceR: I think it's a social issue more than one of religion.Feb 03 09:52
MinceRwell, religion itself is a social issueFeb 03 09:53
schestowitzZiggyFish: where does the $$ come from?Feb 03 09:53
schestowitzDo they just 'print' it?Feb 03 09:53
schestowitzReligion sometimes captured people who share a pain, interest, etc.Feb 03 09:53
ZiggyFishschestowitz: it will also mean that Australia will be in deptFeb 03 09:54
schestowitzdebt?Feb 03 09:56
ZiggyFishI'll try to find an article on itFeb 03 09:57
schestowitzThat's just a short-term solution. Like throwing a credit card at a person who is brokeFeb 03 09:57
ZiggyFishhttp://www.news.com.au/couriermail/...Feb 03 09:59
ZiggyFishschestowitz: around December, the government gave the unemployed something like $1500 (if I remember correctly).Feb 03 10:03
ZiggyFishand it was only to the unemployed (ie people living off of Centerlink)Feb 03 10:03
schestowitzHehe.Feb 03 10:04
schestowitz"out of recession"Feb 03 10:04
schestowitzThey still use just the "R" wordFeb 03 10:04
ZiggyFishthe Australian Reserve bank also dropped there rate by a full percentFeb 03 10:05
ZiggyFishnow down to 3.25Feb 03 10:06
schestowitzNational bank. Are there private ones?Feb 03 10:08
ZiggyFishyeah, I think soFeb 03 10:09
schestowitzI've just posted more links in BNFeb 03 10:10
ZiggyFishnice, thanksFeb 03 10:10
*ZiggyFish like linksFeb 03 10:11
schestowitzI can't find my own postsFeb 03 10:35
schestowitzI've spent 5 minutes trying to find a picture I have... *sighFeb 03 10:35
ZiggyFishhttp://boycottnovell.com/ ;)Feb 03 10:36
schestowitzI have given upFeb 03 10:41
schestowitzI'm trying to find a chart of market shareFeb 03 10:42
schestowitzI made it some months agoFeb 03 10:42
schestowitzhttp://images.google.com/images?sourceid=moz...Feb 03 10:42
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ZiggyFishwhat type of market share (OS or browser)Feb 03 10:45
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ZiggyFishhttp://boycottnovell.com/category/linspire/ on OSes, or http://boycottnovell.com/2008/10/21/... on browersFeb 03 10:46
schestowitzI give upFeb 03 10:47
schestowitzI spent 15 minutes in vain.Feb 03 10:51
*schestowitz timed out (reset by beer)Feb 03 10:51
ZiggyFishlolFeb 03 10:52
ZiggyFishsounds like a good ideaFeb 03 10:52
ZiggyFishalthough I only have Jack ATMFeb 03 10:53
schestowitzIt didn't even take me this long to make the pictureFeb 03 10:53
ZiggyFishlolFeb 03 10:53
schestowitzBut you feel so close to finding it and you must make the wasted time feel not like a lost pursuit. It's a psychological thing.Feb 03 10:53
ZiggyFishyesFeb 03 10:54
ZiggyFishbut as soon as you move away from the problem for some reason, the answer always comes to youFeb 03 10:54
ZiggyFishit's like you always find something your not looking forFeb 03 10:55
schestowitzIn this case, I don't know which words to search onFeb 03 10:59
schestowitzI can't help it, I'm still searching.Feb 03 11:01
ZiggyFishlolFeb 03 11:01
schestowitzI'm just wasting my time..Feb 03 11:04
ZiggyFishtime for some ice creamFeb 03 11:05
schestowitzThe longer I go, the worse it getsFeb 03 11:06
schestowitzMore chronicFeb 03 11:06
schestowitzhttp://blogs.the451group.com/opensource...Feb 03 11:07
schestowitzSighFeb 03 11:07
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ZiggyFisha`niceFeb 03 11:13
NZhereticOne quick point and note ...http://bsd.slashdot.org/article...Feb 03 11:13
NZhereticWhen Microsoft sold Xenix ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix ) to the Santa Cruz Operation ( Not the current SCO Group ), wasn't there a Non-compete clause in the agreement? I thought that Microsoft was not allowed to sell any Unix based operating system - and that would include any NetBSD derivative.Feb 03 11:14
schestowitzYES!Feb 03 11:14
schestowitzI found itFeb 03 11:14
schestowitzWhile looking at http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...Feb 03 11:14
ZiggyFishniceFeb 03 11:14
ZiggyFishlolFeb 03 11:15
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/0...Feb 03 11:15
schestowitzThis was a response to DiggFeb 03 11:15
schestowitzSomeone posted the very same chart with shares reversed (desktop lies)Feb 03 11:16
ZiggyFishI find it interesting that the percentage of Linux desktops directly relates to the percentage of Linux Desktops in shopsFeb 03 11:18
ZiggyFishgoogles market share: 81.48%Feb 03 11:25
ZiggyFishniceFeb 03 11:25
NZheretichttp://gdamore.blogspot.com/2008/1...Feb 03 11:28
schestowitz"Australia today was the venue for the first of a series of events around the globe to launch Skype for Windows 4.0, described by Dan Neary Skype's VP and general manager Asia Pacific as "probably the most significant launch in Skype's five-year history."" http://www.itwire.com/content/view/23023/1231/Feb 03 11:28
NZheretic"Strong understanding of the NetBSD/GNU software development process "Feb 03 11:28
schestowitzRipping off more network stacks?Feb 03 11:28
*oob (n=oob@125-236-204-237.adsl.xtra.co.nz) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 03 11:31
oobgood morningFeb 03 11:31
ZiggyFishgood eveningFeb 03 11:32
oobg'day ziggyfishFeb 03 11:32
ZiggyFishin 3 1/2 hours i can say good morning ;/)Feb 03 11:33
ZiggyFishoob: hehFeb 03 11:33
oobyou could say it now, it just wouldn't be true. but then, veracity isn't an aussie strong suit eh?  :)Feb 03 11:33
NZhereticschestowitz: just GCC and GPL'ed build tools, not the first time either - see http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?si...Feb 03 11:34
NZheretichttp://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.htmlFeb 03 11:34
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oobi discovered only today that jeff waugh had resigned from the gnome board, in december. i wonder if anyone can tell me why this was and wha he's up to now?Feb 03 11:38
schestowitzI didn't know thisFeb 03 11:39
oobhttp://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-announ...Feb 03 11:40
*ZiggyFish don't like lyingFeb 03 11:40
schestowitzoob: is there anything that canbe cited?Feb 03 11:40
schestowitzOhFeb 03 11:40
oobthen there's a comment on his partner's blog, which makes mention of a move and a new adventure;Feb 03 11:41
oobhttp://pipka.org/blog/2008/12/23/moving/#commentsFeb 03 11:41
*NZheretic has quit ("Backup completed, sleep now.")Feb 03 11:43
schestowitzoob: I'm writing about it nowFeb 03 11:45
oobscoop meFeb 03 11:45
oobi want to feast upon the gory detailsFeb 03 11:47
schestowitzI keep it shortFeb 03 11:51
schestowitzI don't want to aggravateFeb 03 11:51
oobwhy not? it's an opportunity to encourage gnome to rejoin the ranks as a good citizen.Feb 03 11:52
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/03/...Feb 03 11:54
schestowitzoob: leaving it for someone else to doFeb 03 11:54
schestowitzI saw absolutely nothing about this until you said it (and I follow the news super-closely)Feb 03 11:54
oobthe timing and the lack of detail suggests to me a push as opposed to a jumpFeb 03 11:55
oobi see the stormy peters has been blogging recently on the necessity to improve marketing and on gnome-mobileFeb 03 11:58
oobhttp://www.stormyscorner.com...Feb 03 11:58
oobhttp://www.stormyscorner.com/2009/01/gnome-mob...Feb 03 11:58
oobthese are two areas where one might question waugh's contributionFeb 03 11:59
ooball supposition of course.Feb 03 11:59
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has left #boycottnovellFeb 03 12:00
schestowitzoob: yesFeb 03 12:03
schestowitzI was gonna ask about PetersFeb 03 12:03
oobmy views is that a certain amount of penitence is in order. i want to be convinced that the sins of the past are repented and won't be repeatedFeb 03 12:04
ooba crucifixion could achieve that nicelyFeb 03 12:08
oobbut the devil will be in the detailsFeb 03 12:08
oobwhich at this point, are sadly lackingFeb 03 12:08
schestowitzoob: I could link to old incidentFeb 03 12:16
schestowitzWe probably have like 50 posts where Waugh was confrontedFeb 03 12:16
schestowitzMontly from 2007Feb 03 12:16
schestowitz*MostlyFeb 03 12:16
ooboh, i think his prevarication is well documented and well knownFeb 03 12:18
ooband widely resentedFeb 03 12:19
oobbut these are personality flawsFeb 03 12:19
oobi'm more interested in itemising the harm he has caused in his official capacityFeb 03 12:19
oobrepresenting microsoft and novell's interests at the expense of F/OSSFeb 03 12:20
oobthat waugh receives his well-overdue comeuppance is secondary to gnome changing its directionFeb 03 12:24
schestowitzAre you affiliated with GNOME?Feb 03 12:24
oobnopeFeb 03 12:24
schestowitzI like Stormy. She's okFeb 03 12:24
schestowitzBut she is affiliated with bad companyFeb 03 12:24
oobi wonder what murray cummings knowsFeb 03 12:25
schestowitzH-P (Microsoft lackeys) and OpenLogic (headed by former Softie, sponsored by Microsoft).Feb 03 12:25
ooband is prepared to volunteer. do you know him?Feb 03 12:25
schestowitzI know what he said about JeffFeb 03 12:25
ooboh yes i'm aware of her allegiancesFeb 03 12:25
schestowitzDrove the Waughs into depression, methinksFeb 03 12:26
oobi do too, which is why i wonder if he might be both informed and prepared to informFeb 03 12:26
*r0ver (n=r0ver@200.127.24.112) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 03 12:29
schestowitzCan you ask him?Feb 03 12:30
schestowitzI don't know him personally.Feb 03 12:30
oobi don't know himFeb 03 12:30
oobahFeb 03 12:31
oobhe's your compatriot i thinkFeb 03 12:31
oobperhaps you could buy him a pintFeb 03 12:31
schestowitzHe's in England?Feb 03 12:32
oobUK Mobile: +44 (0) 7971 226563Feb 03 12:33
oobseems he resides in germanyFeb 03 12:33
oobbut he is indeed your compatriot. you could get together and bitch about uppity colonialsFeb 03 12:35


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