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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 23rd, 2009 - Part 1

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Balrogschestowitz:Feb 23 00:04
Balroghttp://news.slashdot.org/article.p...Feb 23 00:04
BalrogMicrosoft is asking laid-off employees to return some money from their severance packages because they were 'overpaid'Feb 23 00:05
schestowitzYes, I got 3 articles about itFeb 23 00:06
schestowitzMicrosoft is cheap and it running low on cash, IMHOFeb 23 00:06
schestowitzMany articles about MS and bailout in recent days tooFeb 23 00:06
BalrogI see.Feb 23 00:22
schestowitzFinnix 92.1 Review - http://ryanorser.com/?p=777 Not much of a review, is it?Feb 23 00:26
schestowitzhttp://www.johannes-eva.net/inde... "In this article I explain why I think that the rulers should be hidden by default in Openoffice.org Writer." I only recently found the need for rulers/grid in GIMP, which are there...Feb 23 00:30
schestowitzSongbird, music player that wants to do everything, loses CEO < http://venturebeat.com/2009/02/21/songbird-mu... >Feb 23 00:33
MinceRthe OS that only needs a good music player? :>Feb 23 00:36
MinceRgnFeb 23 00:36
schestowitzApple Hype Mill: http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=3130Feb 23 00:51
schestowitzhttp://blog.flameeyes.eu/2009/02/20/wh... "For everyone who cares about users, let’s try to work all together to make PulseAudio better rather than attacking Lennart for trying to do the right thing, okay?"Feb 23 00:55
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schestowitzWeird comments here: http://www.tuxradar.com/linuxstarterpackFeb 23 01:09
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balzac00:11 < Balrog> Microsoft is asking laid-off employees to return some money from their severanceFeb 23 02:20
balzac00:11 < Balrog> Microsoft is asking laid-off employees to return some money from their severanceFeb 23 02:20
balzacoopsFeb 23 02:20
balzacthat is quite an embarrassment for Microsoft to be stooping to shake-down laid-off employees in the hopes of saving a few coinsFeb 23 02:22
balzacdon't be "white-man givers"Feb 23 02:22
balzacjkFeb 23 02:22
schestowitzPoor MicrosoftFeb 23 02:22
schestowitzThey need $$ (nickels maybe)Feb 23 02:22
balzac"we're sorry, but we had an accounting error regarding the size of your severance package. We're going to need some of that back.Feb 23 02:23
balzacIf the money had already been transferred, I'd offer Microsoft's account a two-word answer.Feb 23 02:23
schestowitzI can't wait till the day when, just like SCO, they'll make some surprise chapter-you-know-what. A lot of companies and CEOs look at each other like in a poker game waiting to see who goes down next and who stays off the sharks at the end. Judging by the terrain, Microsoft will be in for a very rough time.Feb 23 02:24
balzacthat would be heavenlyFeb 23 02:24
balzacIt reminds me of the US government asking soldiers to pay back some of their wages because of an accounting errorFeb 23 02:25
balzaciraq war veterans, asked to pay back the government under BushFeb 23 02:25
balzacBush is worse than MicrosoftFeb 23 02:25
balzacBush would ask the soldiers for a bit more sacrifice - would you do Uncle Sam a favor and sell your mechanical leg, replace it with a wooden peg-leg so we could save a few thousand dollars?Feb 23 02:26
balzacBush loved to say "sacrifice".Feb 23 02:29
schestowitzHeh.Feb 23 02:29
schestowitzBush is religiousFeb 23 02:30
schestowitzI'm sure he believes in sacrificeFeb 23 02:30
schestowitzHe sends kids to die abroad... to return to Wichita in coffins.Feb 23 02:30
balzacanyone excempt himselfFeb 23 02:30
schestowitzLike Bill O'Reilly.Feb 23 02:30
balzache believes himself connected to god through fate, so his whims and comfort are sacrosanct, while everyone can die like a character in a movie.Feb 23 02:31
schestowitzHeroes promoting democracy{tm}Feb 23 02:31
schestowitzFrom the armchair.Feb 23 02:31
balzacI can't believe the New York Times compared Bernie Madoff to Ted Bundy and never compared Bush to a serial killerFeb 23 02:31
schestowitz"God Mess America"Feb 23 02:32
schestowitzTed Bundy?Feb 23 02:32
schestowitzWhat was his other name?Feb 23 02:32
schestowitzI forgot..Feb 23 02:32
balzacBush had 162 people executed as governor of TexasFeb 23 02:32
schestowitzHe strangled many womenFeb 23 02:32
balzacBush loved having people killedFeb 23 02:32
schestowitzBush  -- if the Nuremberg trial rules were applied...Feb 23 02:33
balzacwould hangFeb 23 02:33
schestowitzAt bestFeb 23 02:33
balzacWell, Muntadar al Zaidi hurled a shoe at BushFeb 23 02:34
balzacI think it's a signal that Bush is in for a restless futureFeb 23 02:34
balzacthings are going very sour with the Republicans despite Obama's best efforts to extend his hand diplomaticallyFeb 23 02:35
balzacFirst the NY Post cartoon which compares a crazed chimpanzee which had just been shot dead for biting a woman's face to President ObamaFeb 23 02:36
balzacthe NAACP is calling for the firing of the cartoonist and the editor. I agree emphatically that both should be fired.Feb 23 02:36
balzacThen, John Gibson from  Fox compared Eric Holder, Attourney General to another primate - an esacaped monkey in a zooFeb 23 02:37
schestowitzWas there a cause for the cartoon (as in something deeper)?Feb 23 02:37
balzacRupert Murdoch owns New York Post and Fox NoiseFeb 23 02:37
schestowitzMaybe it was accidental... better to check... ask question before shooting.Feb 23 02:37
schestowitz*LOL* "Fox Noise"... new to me...Feb 23 02:38
balzacthere's no possible excuse or plausible deniabilityFeb 23 02:38
balzacthe cartoon leaves no room for misinterpretationFeb 23 02:38
schestowitzOBAMAA will get a hard time for sureFeb 23 02:38
schestowitzIt's a racist nation in some partsFeb 23 02:38
schestowitzBeing half black he'll get a lot of the blame even harder for being 'different' to them.Feb 23 02:39
balzacIf Bush is to be prosecuted, Eric Holder is the man at the helm at the Department of JusticeFeb 23 02:39
balzache's also the guy who will either apply the law to microsoft, or let them slide.Feb 23 02:40
schestowitzThey'll cover each others' backFeb 23 02:40
schestowitzRMS wrote about it the other dayFeb 23 02:40
schestowitzhe stated, linking to some article, that OBAMAA won't prosecute BushFeb 23 02:40
balzacwell, these guys like Rupert Murdoch are sicking their attack-pigs on ObamaFeb 23 02:40
schestowitzMaybeFeb 23 02:41
schestowitzCan he prosecure Rupert insteadFeb 23 02:41
balzacif it gets bad enough, how can the Repuglicans be protected from themselves?Feb 23 02:41
schestowitzthey can put him in a parents' homeFeb 23 02:41
balzacthey're treating Obama like they still can't believe he's really presidentFeb 23 02:41
schestowitzRemember 2000 elections?Feb 23 02:41
schestowitzFriends of Gerorge announced prematutely a winFeb 23 02:42
balzacI bet Rupert Murdoch's trophy wife and son are both praying daily for his heart to give out.Feb 23 02:42
schestowitzBut he did not winFeb 23 02:42
schestowitzSo then the theme changed to "can Gore somehow reverse it?"Feb 23 02:42
schestowitzIt would make Gore seem like he's the cheater this wayFeb 23 02:42
schestowitzAll of this was intentionalFeb 23 02:42
balzacYeah, you reminded me of something which sits at the back of my mind, a nearly forgotten crime of epic proportions.Feb 23 02:42
balzacThe theft of the electionFeb 23 02:42
schestowitzAnd the ballot-counting cancellation tooFeb 23 02:42
schestowitzPerople in the US forgot and ignored how the elections got hijackedFeb 23 02:43
balzacBush is a traitor to AmericaFeb 23 02:43
schestowitzIt's not "theft" if they /almost got the required votes :-)Feb 23 02:43
schestowitzNice guys finish lastFeb 23 02:43
balzacBush worked hard to destroy the United States of America, in the tradition of Jefferson Davis.Feb 23 02:44
balzacObama is working hard to keep it together, like President Lincoln.Feb 23 02:44
schestowitzNot destoryFeb 23 02:45
schestowitzHe didn't destory itFeb 23 02:45
balzacwell, once in a rare while, we see someone come along who appears to have only good intentions.Feb 23 02:45
schestowitzNot to those "who count"Feb 23 02:45
schestowitzThe issue is, who did he represent??Feb 23 02:45
schestowitzThe voters? The faction of the United States part?Feb 23 02:45
schestowitz*partyFeb 23 02:45
balzacwell, Republicans are pretty explicit in their goals of ending the USA.Feb 23 02:45
schestowitzNot endingFeb 23 02:45
schestowitzMoochingFeb 23 02:45
balzacBush methodically broke down the US militaryFeb 23 02:45
schestowitzReputation ruined tooFeb 23 02:46
schestowitzThe US military is perceived in Europe as dangerous and trigger happyFeb 23 02:46
balzacno, ending the oldest democracy is most definitely on the agenda of some of these restless eliteFeb 23 02:46
schestowitzThat doesn't helpFeb 23 02:46
schestowitzIt endorses 'terrorism' in some people's mindsFeb 23 02:46
schestowitzWhen the white knights start raping women, they cease to be white knightsFeb 23 02:46
balzacOur military is a lot better than Bush's friends killer mercenariesFeb 23 02:47
balzacat least our military has the UCMJ for some semblance of accountabilityFeb 23 02:48
balzacthe mercenaries answer to no oneFeb 23 02:48
schestowitzMilitaries too can be hijackedFeb 23 02:48
schestowitzThe UK suffered a similar fateFeb 23 02:48
schestowitzSo has IsraelFeb 23 02:48
balzacBush was literally trying to subjugate and break the effectiveness of our military in order to replace them with private forcesFeb 23 02:48
schestowitzWhen fascists run countries, they give a bad name to those who are part of 'The Machine'Feb 23 02:48
balzacprivate forces who were not even AmericansFeb 23 02:49
balzacAs a symbol of the treatment of the US military by Bush and his Repuglican supporters, Pat Tillman is quite relevantFeb 23 02:50
balzacPat Tillman volunteers for military duty after 9/11, leaving behind a great sports career at his primeFeb 23 02:50
balzacmillions of income - he walked away from it to find himself in afghanistanFeb 23 02:50
balzacwhat does he get for it? a three round burst from an m16 in the forhead at close rangeFeb 23 02:51
balzachis body armor is burnedFeb 23 02:51
balzacthe investigation is surpressedFeb 23 02:51
balzacthe shooter had to be quite close because a three-round burst from an m16 spreads over distanceFeb 23 02:51
schestowitzm16?Feb 23 02:52
balzacand then we find that Pat Tillman was about to come out against Bush's phony "war on terror"Feb 23 02:52
schestowitzWas he shot with an American Colt rifle?Feb 23 02:52
balzacwait, lemme search - I was telling the story from memoryFeb 23 02:52
balzacI beleive it's the m16 because it's standard and the three round burst is a setting on itFeb 23 02:53
schestowitz'Friendly' fire (Orwellian term)?Feb 23 02:53
balzacPat Tillman was planning to meet Noam Chomsky when he got homeFeb 23 02:53
balzache made it home in a coffinFeb 23 02:53
schestowitzWhere did the Taliban get weapons for in the first place?Feb 23 02:53
schestowitzUS or Russia?Feb 23 02:53
schestowitzKalashnikov would seem more likely for them after the war with USSRFeb 23 02:54
schestowitzAmerica (well, USA) gave a lot of weapons to Iraq tooFeb 23 02:54
balzacI think the US armed the militant islamic radicals in order to hurt the Soviet occupation of afghanistanFeb 23 02:54
schestowitzSo when they are shot by Iraqis, US soldiers must remember where armament comes fromFeb 23 02:55
balzacWell, Pat Tillman wasn't shot by any MujahideenFeb 23 02:55
schestowitzbalzac: That's how I remember it. They fueled that war to weaken RussiaFeb 23 02:55
schestowitzThey also try to bang China against Russia now (or vice versa)Feb 23 02:56
schestowitzKeeping the nuke in the eastFeb 23 02:56
balzacI think Pat Tillman's journal may have been lost or destroyed as well.Feb 23 02:57
balzacThe San Francisco Chronicle reports:Feb 23 02:58
balzacHe was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books … to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author."Feb 23 02:58
balzacApparently a meeting between Tillman and Chomsky was planned for after Pat's return to the U.S., but he never returned. Instead, he was killed – under circumstances that Pat's mother, Mary, has always characterized as "murky," at best, and that seem, to my eye, at least, suspicious at worst.Feb 23 02:58
schestowitzLike Dr. Kelly..?Feb 23 02:59
balzacI really want to see that investigation carried forth without obstructionFeb 23 02:59
balzacthat name sounds familiarFeb 23 02:59
balzacthe weapons inspector?Feb 23 02:59
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly...Feb 23 02:59
balzacindeedFeb 23 02:59
balzacor the enron witnessFeb 23 02:59
schestowitzCut his wrists to death...?Feb 23 02:59
schestowitzI don't know...Feb 23 02:59
balzacmany pivotal figures died quite conveniently during Bush's yearsFeb 23 02:59
schestowitzWho else?Feb 23 03:01
balzacthere are more than 1,000,000 ghosts houling for BushFeb 23 03:02
balzacwell, a guy involved in interrogations was having an internal moral struggle, and changing his mind against Bush policy on tortureFeb 23 03:03
balzache was found conveniently dead, allegedly a suicideFeb 23 03:03
balzacthere was a young woman who had told relatives she was fearful for her life one time back from Iraq on leaveFeb 23 03:03
balzacshe was quite afraid, later found dead, murdered within a US military base in IraqFeb 23 03:04
balzacshe had information on the corrupt accounting of US funds in IraqFeb 23 03:04
balzacKen Lay also died, along with a pivotal witness in the Enron case who was scheduled to testifyFeb 23 03:05
balzacit's just such a long list, it wouldn't be a short piece of work to compile it and add footnotes and referencesFeb 23 03:06
schestowitzIt's wothwhileFeb 23 03:06
schestowitzI bet someone has it alreadyFeb 23 03:06
schestowitzSo if you google all those named together you might find one/itFeb 23 03:06
balzacThe same guy who successfully prosecuted Charles Manson makes the case for the trial of George Bush for murderFeb 23 03:07
balzacwe'll seeFeb 23 03:07
balzacoften when I would make a thorough list of relevant facts based on memory, I would find it was the most exhaustive list on the subject available online.Feb 23 03:08
balzacI'll show you an exampleFeb 23 03:08
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schestowitzbalzac: why wait until he finished his presidency?Feb 23 03:09
balzachttp://ia300217.us.archive.org/0/item...Feb 23 03:09
schestowitzThat's why I don't getFeb 23 03:09
balzacI never waitedFeb 23 03:09
schestowitzI wrote BN sometimes in order to organise thoughts and notes, mostly refsFeb 23 03:10
balzacI supported Kucinich and wrote so many times in favor of impeachment over the yearsFeb 23 03:10
balzacespecially from 2005 onFeb 23 03:10
schestowitzIf others find them handy too, the  greatFeb 23 03:10
balzacCheck out that link I pasted pleaseFeb 23 03:10
schestowitzI can search for them using Google nowFeb 23 03:10
schestowitzSo I find my old thoughts quicklyFeb 23 03:10
balzacI wrote about the Zarqawi psyops campaign a day before the story officially broke on Washington Post.comFeb 23 03:11
schestowitzbalzac: I'm not familiar enough with these connectionsFeb 23 03:11
balzacwell, it's missing the first diagram which included all the dubious linksFeb 23 03:12
balzacarchive.org thought these two diagrams were the same and deleted the first versionFeb 23 03:12
balzacI used rational criteria for color-coding the intelligence events according to the criteriaFeb 23 03:12
balzacremember all those alleged Bin Laden audio tapesFeb 23 03:13
balzac?Feb 23 03:13
balzacBin Laden endorses John KerryFeb 23 03:14
balzacyeah, right.Feb 23 03:14
balzacThat audio came out of the Bush-lead psyops teamFeb 23 03:14
balzacThose audio tapes were quite silly and obviously fakeFeb 23 03:15
balzaca long series of themFeb 23 03:15
schestowitzHmmmm...Feb 23 03:15
schestowitzI don't know these stories too well at all.Feb 23 03:15
balzacthey'd just show a picture of Bin Laden and the recorded audio would be played, presented as authentic by CNN and othersFeb 23 03:15
schestowitzTalking points :-)Feb 23 03:15
schestowitzDoes he say he likes Budweiser?Feb 23 03:16
schestowitzThat would be worth a bundle $$Feb 23 03:16
balzacI just can't believe how outlandish and silly these "al qaeda" audio releases becameFeb 23 03:16
schestowitzOsama lip-synching...Feb 23 03:16
balzaczarqawi was supposed to have been the leader of "al qaeda in iraq"Feb 23 03:17
balzaca non-existent entity, for the the most partFeb 23 03:17
balzacI said, he's probably frozen in a meat lockerFeb 23 03:18
balzacthey wouldn't be feeding zarqawi all these fake lines if he were alive, investing so much in building up his ridiculous reputationFeb 23 03:18
balzacthey picked real terrorists such as Bin Laden and Zarqawi and then embellished quite a bit to feed the media a gripping narrative to keep Bush in control.Feb 23 03:19
schestowitzMaybe. I don't know this stuff.Feb 23 03:20
balzacWell, these investigations have lost their direction because they were hijacked by conspiracy theorists who were not responsible.Feb 23 03:22
balzac"bombs in the towers" conspiracy theories, anti-semitic conspiracy theories derailed the whole grassroots effort to know what happened on 9/11Feb 23 03:22
schestowitzSome people give it a bad nameFeb 23 03:23
balzacmeanwhile, Bush and Cheney refused to go under oath and 28 pages of the 9/11 Commission Report were redacted on behalf of Saudi ArabiaFeb 23 03:23
schestowitzRedacted?Feb 23 03:23
balzacwell, not redacted, but never allowed to be publishedFeb 23 03:24
schestowitzWell, people like Alex Jones and David Ike cause trouble for analysesFeb 23 03:24
balzacI have to look up redactedFeb 23 03:24
schestowitzBad to make them speakers for skeptics of the governmentFeb 23 03:24
balzacthey're  just jokers who make a career off of sensationalizing itFeb 23 03:24
schestowitzWait, I'll show you something..Feb 23 03:24
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0APTn...Feb 23 03:25
schestowitzHe went bonkersFeb 23 03:25
balzacIt's tough to choose the right words on 9/11Feb 23 03:26
balzac'inside job' is a fair description in some ways, but some people's minds shut down when that phrase is spokenFeb 23 03:27
balzacit was an "inside job" when JFK, RFK and MLK were shotFeb 23 03:28
balzacit was an inside job when President Carter was politically humiliated by a hostage crisis in which Republicans cooperated with Iranian hostage takersFeb 23 03:28
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schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F...Feb 23 03:29
schestowitzI didn't know he too was shotFeb 23 03:29
balzacThe Repugs have established a track record of taking American National security very lightly, in fact subverting itFeb 23 03:29
balzacThe 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by islamic radicals from saudi arabiaFeb 23 03:32
balzacthat's why 28 pages were not published on behalf of saudi arabiaFeb 23 03:32
balzacmostly saudi arabiaFeb 23 03:32
balzacbut Bush's people surpressed our national security just prior to the attacksFeb 23 03:33
balzacthey really didn't give a figFeb 23 03:33
balzacClinton shot 60 cruise missiles into Pakistan to kill Osama Bin LadenFeb 23 03:33
balzacBush didn't even care enough to be bothered by the concerns of domestic terror attacksFeb 23 03:34
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balzaceither that, or like others of his ideology, he thought his party could benefit from the aftermath of such an attackFeb 23 03:34
schestowitz60 missile?Feb 23 03:34
balzacso they left our guard downFeb 23 03:34
schestowitz*liesFeb 23 03:34
schestowitzJust clustering them around in random to assassinate one person who used to work with the CIA?Feb 23 03:35
balzacthere was one particular attack in which lots of missiles were fired from a shipFeb 23 03:35
balzacwell, this was reported when it was done, not afterFeb 23 03:36
balzacthe USS cole had been hit, and OBL was taking creditFeb 23 03:37
balzacalso the bombing of the US embassy in TanzaniaFeb 23 03:37
balzacnot to mention WTC attack I in 1993, which has slipped the minds of manyFeb 23 03:38
balzacOsama had let his beard down long before 9/11Feb 23 03:39
balzacBush just waited for Osama to do what he promised to do.Feb 23 03:39
balzacroy, did you know Osama Bin Laden's father, Mohammad Bin Laden was in the Carlylse Group, a personal contact of George Bush Sr.?Feb 23 03:39
balzacor that Neil Bush was a personal friend of John Hinkley's brother, the assassin who tried to kill Ronald Reagan?Feb 23 03:40
schestowitzWait..Feb 23 03:41
balzacI just can't be convinced that Bush ever cared about national securityFeb 23 03:41
schestowitzCarlyle Group?Feb 23 03:41
balzacyesFeb 23 03:41
schestowitzYou know we wrote about them in BN..Feb 23 03:41
schestowitzFor other reasonsFeb 23 03:41
schestowitzSo I did some sniffing around them tooFeb 23 03:41
schestowitzSCO connectionsFeb 23 03:41
balzachmmFeb 23 03:42
schestowitzThere's also the Arab investors in NorrisFeb 23 03:42
schestowitzFriends of GatesFeb 23 03:42
schestowitzNorris is right in there.Feb 23 03:42
balzacinterestingFeb 23 03:43
balzacThe financial elite take care of each otherFeb 23 03:44
balzacwell, I'll wrap it up succintlyFeb 23 03:44
balzacBush is "White Al Qaeda"Feb 23 03:44
schestowitzWhatever.Feb 23 03:45
schestowitzI don't want to make such statementsFeb 23 03:45
schestowitzBut it's OK for others to say such stuffFeb 23 03:45
balzacno pressureFeb 23 03:45
schestowitzLikewise in BNFeb 23 03:45
schestowitzI could go on and do with Justice Jackson Penfield did.... and like many just call Microsoft "Criminals"... but then you lose voice legitimacy.Feb 23 03:46
schestowitzFor saying truthsFeb 23 03:46
balzacI'm really glad you're emphasizing teh law-breaking by MicrosoftFeb 23 03:46
schestowitzLike you can get smeared for saying things about the bible, religions, leaders, or the ALL MIGHTY GATES FOUNDATIONFeb 23 03:46
balzacit's easy to forgetFeb 23 03:46
schestowitzWho DARE say that the GATES FOUNDATION (oh! Mighty goodness!) is more than some charityFeb 23 03:47
schestowitzBTW, google BN for 'carlyle' to find interesting things.Feb 23 03:47
schestowitzI don't remember exactly the things that I found but I wrote them downFeb 23 03:47
schestowitzSomertimes, like in Groklaw, you need to just pass facts without judgmentFeb 23 03:48
balzacwell, it's classical philanthropy - done more in the service of the ego and social stature than for the stated purposeFeb 23 03:48
schestowitzThen you see people linking to it with phrases like "those criminals" or "mafia"Feb 23 03:48
schestowitzSo it doesn't matter what words you use... just what you presentFeb 23 03:48
schestowitzIntellectual can provoke rage without any strong wordsFeb 23 03:48
schestowitzJust annoying phrases like "you 'little people'"Feb 23 03:49
balzacIt's not right to denigrate the mafia too muchFeb 23 03:49
schestowitzOr "them the 'big brains'"Feb 23 03:49
balzacwell, factual support is very importantFeb 23 03:50
balzacbut I like Michael Moore's style because he's not afraid to lend his own editorial take on the facts as well.Feb 23 03:51
balzacBut, it's equally important to emphatically challenge the identity which the opposition is project as a strategic matterFeb 23 03:51
balzacBill Gates is really not the Santa Clause of the worldFeb 23 03:52
balzacMicrosoft is a mind-prison, the bars are made of proprietary software.Feb 23 03:52
balzacHe's not Dr. Evil, he's not the second comingFeb 23 03:52
balzacbut he may well be a man who has deliberately broken the law on behalf of his company a number of timesFeb 23 03:53
balzacbut these are "soft crimes"Feb 23 03:53
balzacI'm not convinced the M$ crimes justify any jail sentence, or will result in suchFeb 23 03:54
balzacI've been defending "soft crime" perpetrators such as Madoff, Blagejevich and others because their crime pale in comparison to the Bush Administrations assault on America and the world.Feb 23 03:55
balzacHow can Bill Gates possibly be held to the letter of the law, while Bush still walks free?Feb 23 03:56
balzachow can anyone?Feb 23 03:56
balzacMost people think it's a remote possibility for Bush to go to jail.Feb 23 03:56
balzacI think it could happen some years down the road.Feb 23 03:56
balzacI doubt any of the three top executives of Microsoft have any likelyhood at all of being convicted of crimes resulting in jail sentences.Feb 23 03:57
balzacBut I commend you for making the case.Feb 23 03:57
balzacSomeone ought to do it, just to remind people that we have laws for a reason.Feb 23 03:57
balzacand to call attention to the fact that microsoft has been running rough-shod over the laws of our country for yearsFeb 23 03:58
schestowitzbalzac: jusdge jackson disgareeFeb 23 03:58
schestowitzhe promposed criminal prosecution against Microsoft ececsFeb 23 03:58
schestowitzThey could face prisonFeb 23 03:58
schestowitzwhite-collar crime costs the public a lot more than shoplifting or smoking of potFeb 23 03:58
balzache's the guy whose sentence was to break up ms?Feb 23 03:59
schestowitzBut those people are good at coirrupting  (paying off) justice figuresFeb 23 03:59
balzacyeahFeb 23 03:59
schestowitzCorruptible officials make all the differenceeFeb 23 03:59
balzacwell, society is a social network which spans both law-breakers and law-enforcementFeb 23 03:59
balzacthere are intermediaries who prevent justice from being applied uniformlyFeb 23 04:00
schestowitzbalzac: yes, then Bush cameFeb 23 04:00
schestowitzBush changed the rule for MicrosoftFeb 23 04:00
schestowitzMaybe they paid a lot for his running campaignFeb 23 04:00
schestowitzThere's the McCain-MS link tooFeb 23 04:00
balzacI'm not a critic of corruption in general in society, it's not going to change.Feb 23 04:00
schestowitzIt can be reducedFeb 23 04:01
schestowitzWith the internet, criminals can be exposed more easilyFeb 23 04:01
balzacyesFeb 23 04:01
schestowitzI still need to proceed more Comes materiaFeb 23 04:01
schestowitz*ialFeb 23 04:01
balzacgood pointFeb 23 04:01
balzacthe wheels of justice turn slowly...Feb 23 04:02
balzacbut they grind exceedingly fineFeb 23 04:02
balzacI just have a feeling that Bill Gates has invested so much in his reputation in society, that he will never be held to accountFeb 23 04:02
balzacand why should he be, when we have bigger fish to fryFeb 23 04:03
balzacjustice can never be applied as uniformly or as intended when laws were originally draftedFeb 23 04:03
schestowitzYes, you put it rightly.Feb 23 04:03
schestowitzGates is an example of prior /bigger' criminals who rewrote their biosFeb 23 04:04
schestowitzhe also rewrites MS history in the MSBBC, e.g. when he retiredFeb 23 04:04
schestowitzThis pissed his victums off.. they blogged about itFeb 23 04:04
balzacbut I don't criticize you for making the case for how Gates may have run afoul of the lawFeb 23 04:04
schestowitzThey noticed BNFeb 23 04:04
balzacwhat if MS collapsed like a ponzi scheme?Feb 23 04:04
schestowitzConvicted to prison or not, people should know the truthFeb 23 04:04
balzacwhat if the psychology of Microsoft inverted itselfFeb 23 04:05
schestowitzIf people at least recognise Gates for the crimes he comitted, then he will at least be prosecuted in the minds of people.Feb 23 04:05
schestowitz*committedFeb 23 04:05
balzacMadoff was the hero, then the goatFeb 23 04:05
balzacit happened very quicklyFeb 23 04:05
schestowitzbalzac: hold obFeb 23 04:05
schestowitzMicrosoft may *be* a Ponzi schemeFeb 23 04:05
balzacyesFeb 23 04:05
schestowitzI heard from MSFT investors yeterday and they compare ballmer and gates to madoffFeb 23 04:06
balzaci'm starting to realize that based on the links you've sharedFeb 23 04:06
schestowitzThey will unveil details in an interview soon.Feb 23 04:06
schestowitzbalzac: look at archives under "finance"Feb 23 04:06
balzacRoy, if enough people get burned by a collapse in the value of MS stock, theyFeb 23 04:06
schestowitzI have journalists who agree with meFeb 23 04:06
oiaohmHow MS formed is nothing new.Feb 23 04:06
balzacthey'll cry out for heads to rollFeb 23 04:06
schestowitzBut they talk privately.. they are afraid to publish thisFeb 23 04:06
schestowitzParish tried and got smeared for itFeb 23 04:06
oiaohmHistory has done the same things many times over.Feb 23 04:06
balzacRoy, this is some of the juiciest stuff published on your siteFeb 23 04:07
balzacthe financial troubles of MSFeb 23 04:07
balzacand shady accountingFeb 23 04:07
oiaohmFinancial troubles are cased.Feb 23 04:08
balzaca half-legitimate business can quickly turn into a full on fraudFeb 23 04:08
oiaohmSimple point MS under predicted how much force Linux could apply to the market.Feb 23 04:08
oiaohmForce being applied is not even to its max yet.Feb 23 04:08
balzacMS may be a half-way legitimate business now, but if they don't recognize their downward trajectory, and begin to settle accounts...Feb 23 04:09
balzacoiaohm: yesFeb 23 04:09
oiaohmNothing to do with legitmateFeb 23 04:09
balzacbut it's coming to a head with Firefox taking IE market-share at such a brisk paceFeb 23 04:09
oiaohmSun selling solarias in the super computer was legitimateFeb 23 04:09
balzachow long until the tipping point is reached?Feb 23 04:09
oiaohmyet they lost the market.Feb 23 04:10
oiaohmCost vs Quality.  When someone can provide something good enough you are basically dead in the water.Feb 23 04:10
balzacwell, these MS executives and share-holders should be thinking very defensively nowFeb 23 04:10
balzacthere's building paranoia and dwindling capitalFeb 23 04:10
oiaohmMicrosoft basically has to restructure or die.Feb 23 04:10
balzacyepFeb 23 04:11
oiaohmIts like scribes vs printing pressesFeb 23 04:11
oiaohmAnd I could pull out many historic examples.Feb 23 04:11
oiaohmThese events have happened so many times over its not funny.Feb 23 04:11
balzacIf MS is too late to admit their financial ruin and settle accounts, it will be said that they covered up their problems, tricked share holders, benefitted from inside knowledge, and committed fraud.Feb 23 04:12
balzacthey could be on the hook like Bernie Madoff, if the discrepency between expected value and actual value is too great.Feb 23 04:13
oiaohmBill gates set up everything to stop this day coming.Feb 23 04:13
oiaohmNow that is here stoping it could be impossable.Feb 23 04:13
balzacroy, so the MS investors who contacted you compared Gates to Madoff?Feb 23 04:15
balzacoiaohm: their accounting discrepancies could be very bad and getting worse quicklyFeb 23 04:15
balzacbut they may be hiding it in hopes of a recoveryFeb 23 04:15
balzacI'm hoping for a cataclysmic collapse of value of MS stock, so that I may profit from the F&OSS boomFeb 23 04:16
balzac(and for the sake of freedom, obviously)Feb 23 04:17
balzacMicrosoft has failed to adapt to the internetFeb 23 04:24
balzacthe price of failure will be more than they realizeFeb 23 04:24
balzacThe government of Iceland was recently caught flat-footed by financial ruinFeb 23 04:25
balzacand revealed to be quite corruptFeb 23 04:26
schestowitz        balzac: "Roy, this is some of the juiciest stuff published on your site"Feb 23 04:30
schestowitzThanks, I'll keep an eye on itFeb 23 04:30
schestowitzI heard another theory from a friend todayFeb 23 04:30
schestowitzHe talked about how they changed the accounting methods over timeFeb 23 04:31
schestowitzThey inflated the economy based on illusionsFeb 23 04:31
schestowitzSo all that "Microsoft revenue rises every quarter" is likely to be utter BSFeb 23 04:31
schestowitzAs Parish showedFeb 23 04:31
schestowitzThey can fake it with the support of it being "the norm"Feb 23 04:31
schestowitzSo they are a pyramid part of a much bigger oneFeb 23 04:31
schestowitzWhich is a global collapse that's unprecedentedFeb 23 04:32
balzacsounds quite plausibleFeb 23 04:32
schestowitzThey got busted beforeFeb 23 04:32
schestowitzWhistleblower, then SEC investigationFeb 23 04:33
schestowitzNovell's a similar storyFeb 23 04:33
balzacMadoff's interactions with the SEC, Greenspan's years of watering down accountability and delaying the inevitable accounting...Feb 23 04:33
schestowitzI reckon Novell's frauds that I wrote about are still very realFeb 23 04:33
schestowitzSo Novell was nearly bankrupt before the deal with MSFeb 23 04:33
balzacwowFeb 23 04:33
schestowitzThey sold their soul, almost literally.Feb 23 04:33
schestowitzCommercial life or deathFeb 23 04:33
balzacand George Soros has said that the financial collapse could be "bottomless".Feb 23 04:34
schestowitz       <balzac> roy, so the MS investors who contacted you compared Gates to Madoff?Feb 23 04:34
schestowitzbalzac: they conteacted meFeb 23 04:34
schestowitzOne of them didFeb 23 04:34
balzacawesomeFeb 23 04:34
schestowitzI reckon they lost over half their money on Ballmer's gangFeb 23 04:34
balzacprobably on behalf of a like-minded group of themFeb 23 04:35
schestowitzAnd some people got rich at their expense over the yearsFeb 23 04:35
schestowitzMicrosoft has Motley FoolFeb 23 04:35
schestowitzAnd all sorts of other 'bought' publications to kite their stockFeb 23 04:35
balzacyeahFeb 23 04:35
schestowitzBut they could be like SCOFeb 23 04:35
balzacrightFeb 23 04:35
balzacthese are unseemly relationshipsFeb 23 04:35
schestowitzThey also have attack dogs against turth speakersFeb 23 04:35
schestowitzI used to get that in USENETFeb 23 04:35
schestowitzAlso when exposing Gate  Foundary[sic]Feb 23 04:36
schestowitzWhen I produced evidencer they stopped complainingFeb 23 04:36
balzacthey may have thought this was just friendly press back when they started throwing treats to the pundits for favorable press - after a collapse of stock value, this could be described as conspiracyFeb 23 04:36
schestowitzit's hard to rebut when all I do is state verifiable fact and I build a case with many refrences, over time. Then I get feedback in BN/mail/USENET/fellow bloggersFeb 23 04:37
schestowitzSo it's like teamworkFeb 23 04:37
balzacpayola for favorable press...Feb 23 04:37
balzacyeahFeb 23 04:37
schestowitzMicrosoft is said to have lost $18bn in 2998Feb 23 04:37
schestowitz1998Feb 23 04:37
schestowitzIn one yearFeb 23 04:37
schestowitzBut they played accounting tricks, says SmithersFeb 23 04:37
schestowitzPeople ignored it at the timeFeb 23 04:37
schestowitzGates had stepped downFeb 23 04:38
schestowitzBallmer put in charge while Gates prepares to reshape image.. hand-washing./Feb 23 04:38
balzacwow, things may actually change in a big wayFeb 23 04:38
schestowitzHis dad is a HUGE part of MicrosoftFeb 23 04:38
schestowitzBut his dad you will hardly ever see in the mediaFeb 23 04:38
schestowitzHe's like that relative of FreudFeb 23 04:38
oiaohmMS depended on the fact it could force upgrades.Feb 23 04:38
balzacafter all these years of wondering, when could GNU and Linux get a chanceFeb 23 04:38
schestowitzWorking behind the scenes in obscurityFeb 23 04:39
oiaohmThat has kinda shattered.Feb 23 04:39
balzachmmFeb 23 04:39
schestowitzoiaohm: not only thatFeb 23 04:39
schestowitzThey depend on marginsFeb 23 04:39
oiaohmNow with Linux putting pressure on cutting proffeit percent.Feb 23 04:39
balzacyeah, well people aren't even upgrading their hardware very muchFeb 23 04:39
schestowitzThey have just two reallyt profitable productsFeb 23 04:39
schestowitz1) Office 2) WindowsFeb 23 04:39
balzaccomputing power got so far ahead of the office applications and operating systemFeb 23 04:39
oiaohmBasically Open source has 1 2 punched MS.Feb 23 04:39
schestowitzThis is confirmed by MS watch (a guy who worked for MS pretty much)Feb 23 04:39
balzacnow only games and ultra-rich media can sell new computersFeb 23 04:39
schestowitzWindows includes serverFeb 23 04:39
schestowitzThat's where margins are betterFeb 23 04:40
schestowitzBut Linux is killing those tooFeb 23 04:40
schestowitzNow on sub-notebooksFeb 23 04:40
schestowitzAnd education contracts... EDGI and allFeb 23 04:40
oiaohmIf sub-notebooks turn into notebooks then MS is really in trouble.Feb 23 04:40
oiaohmDesktop market is reducing anyhow.Feb 23 04:40
schestowitzWhy do you think Mirosoft become top patent aplicant?Feb 23 04:40
balzacThe Linux Kernel's most important aspect is the hardware-compatibility.Feb 23 04:40
schestowitzIn the past they hardly talked about itFeb 23 04:41
schestowitzNow it's just IP this , IP thatFeb 23 04:41
oiaohmMs is trying to restruct like sun did.Feb 23 04:41
schestowitzBecause they failed to kill GoogleFeb 23 04:41
oiaohmMost of sun income these days comes from patents.Feb 23 04:41
schestowitzTheir on-line office suite is well behindFeb 23 04:41
oiaohmNot from they selling stuff.Feb 23 04:41
schestowitzFeature-wise even..Feb 23 04:41
schestowitzAnd they couldn't sell hardware eitherFeb 23 04:41
schestowitzThey triedFeb 23 04:41
schestowitzAfter losing billion in late 90sFeb 23 04:41
schestowitzThey tried XBoxFeb 23 04:41
schestowitzFailed badlyFeb 23 04:41
balzacI don't carry my full-sized notebook aroundFeb 23 04:41
oiaohmGoogle has a track record of selling hardwareFeb 23 04:41
schestowitzLost more billiobsFeb 23 04:42
schestowitzThey tried Zune. Haha.Feb 23 04:42
oiaohmAnd making a profit.Feb 23 04:42
schestowitzLiceinsing fees for WM are low due to LinuxFeb 23 04:42
schestowitzWincE.. $3 apiece, due to LinuxFeb 23 04:42
balzacI saw this poor guy who had a Zune logo as a tattooFeb 23 04:42
schestowitzSince around 2004 (not sure, don't trust me on this)Feb 23 04:42
schestowitzPatents is like mortgagesFeb 23 04:42
schestowitzImaginary stuffFeb 23 04:43
oiaohmPatents have limited live spans as well.Feb 23 04:43
schestowitz       balzac> The Linux Kernel's most important aspect is the hardware-compatibility.Feb 23 04:43
schestowitzLinux has the best hardware support anywhere.Feb 23 04:43
schestowitzBut not necessarily when it comes to MS-centric h/wFeb 23 04:43
balzacyeah, but they need to get the blobs outFeb 23 04:43
oiaohmLinux Kernel hardware compatiblity too a look of work.Feb 23 04:43
oiaohmtookFeb 23 04:43
balzacoiaohm: sureFeb 23 04:43
schestowitzMicrosoft is drolling for something like LinuxFeb 23 04:43
schestowitzSun especiuallyFeb 23 04:43
balzacbut it's the driversFeb 23 04:43
oiaohmto get hardware companies on side.Feb 23 04:44
schestowitzSun craves Linux-like h/w supportFeb 23 04:44
oiaohmSo drivers could be built.Feb 23 04:44
schestowitzThen they could use KDE/GNOME to make a solid substituteFeb 23 04:44
balzacthe corporate support for the linux kernel project was what really made it fly. It's good that it has a GPL-license.Feb 23 04:44
oiaohmblobs are the price to get some on side.Feb 23 04:44
balzacBut they really need to keep the blobs outFeb 23 04:44
schestowitz   > oiaohm> Google has a track record of selling hardwareFeb 23 04:44
schestowitzCoirrect, search appliancesFeb 23 04:44
oiaohmRemember BSD is older.Feb 23 04:44
schestowitzBig money right there.Feb 23 04:44
oiaohmAnd BSD has never really got anywhere.Feb 23 04:45
oiaohmIt shows the importance of licence.Feb 23 04:45
balzacWell, BSD doesn't have a "copyleft"Feb 23 04:45
schestowitzYes, developer attractionFeb 23 04:45
balzacit didn't have the right kind of "social contract" for a strong communityFeb 23 04:45
oiaohmGPL is about making developer work with each other.Feb 23 04:45
schestowitzBSD lawsuits also bought Linux timeFeb 23 04:45
oiaohmBSD lets people take stuff.Feb 23 04:45
balzacThe Linux Kernel project had the GPL - the gold standard among software licensesFeb 23 04:45
schestowitzReversing copyright lawFeb 23 04:46
schestowitzSeems to work well after allFeb 23 04:46
schestowitzCopywrongFeb 23 04:46
oiaohmThe Licence is the secrect to linux.Feb 23 04:46
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, some people miss itFeb 23 04:46
balzacschestowitz: beating AT&&^\\\\\\\\Feb 23 04:46
schestowitzThey think it's costFeb 23 04:46
balzacoopsFeb 23 04:46
schestowitzIt's MS talking pointFeb 23 04:46
balzactiny little eee pc keyboardFeb 23 04:46
oiaohmWithout the licence Linux would have never got so many hardware companies on board.Feb 23 04:46
oiaohmForced sharing also creates trustFeb 23 04:46
oiaohmBetween companies using it.Feb 23 04:47
balzacoiaohm, trueFeb 23 04:47
balzacoiaohm: you're right, not just between individuals, but also companiesFeb 23 04:47
oiaohmHardware companies have to trust they will not be betrayed.Feb 23 04:47
balzacI haven't thought much about how the GPL facilitates strategic cooperation between companiesFeb 23 04:47
oiaohmAnd have there devices cloned.Feb 23 04:47
oiaohmGPL has changed the open source world in more ways than a lot of people dream.Feb 23 04:48
balzacI've put more attention on individuals, because during the early stages, individuals make or break a free software projectFeb 23 04:48
balzacso the choice of license is importantFeb 23 04:48
oiaohmWine was almost destroyed by the incorrect selection of licence.Feb 23 04:48
oiaohmThey started life with MIT licence.Feb 23 04:48
oiaohmOne company took there source base and went closed.  Lucky there were not good at it.Feb 23 04:49
balzacoiaohm: hardware companies have to know that their devices will be cloned, but they have to keep innovating and trust that loyalty to their brand will be their reward for playing nice with their customersFeb 23 04:49
oiaohmWine had to change to lgpl to protect themselves from future attacks.Feb 23 04:49
balzacoiaohm: there was a good article on a Linux websiteFeb 23 04:50
oiaohmbalzac if you spent a few million design a chips.Feb 23 04:50
oiaohmYou don't want someone just copy cating you chip.Feb 23 04:50
oiaohmWithotu putting in the work.Feb 23 04:50
balzacthe writer says the "GPL is the disruptive technology of GNU/Linux, not the software"Feb 23 04:50
oiaohmGPL means no secrets.Feb 23 04:51
balzacthat's what really separates GNU/Linux from other softwareFeb 23 04:51
oiaohmIf you are a non approved clone maker and everyone knows.Feb 23 04:52
oiaohmHow long before your means to sell stuff reduces.Feb 23 04:52
oiaohmReally closed source driver idea gives hardware makers less protection.Feb 23 04:52
balzacwell, now it's time that these hardware manufacturers think about their relationship with the F&OSS communityFeb 23 04:53
oiaohmThey areFeb 23 04:54
balzacwhile MS loses it's iron grip on their necksFeb 23 04:54
balzacand game companies need to get realFeb 23 04:54
balzacthe president of Valve asks on Digg whether games are over-pricedFeb 23 04:54
oiaohmAMD VIA and Intel in joint packet over video card drivers.Feb 23 04:54
balzacyes they are, but your games are based on a license which is ridiculous and archaicFeb 23 04:54
balzacforget about the cost of these silly gamesFeb 23 04:55
oiaohmNvidia has formally agreed never to apply patents against open source.Feb 23 04:55
oiaohmOk not help open source just never sue open source.Feb 23 04:55
oiaohmMost hardware makers we have the basic these days.Feb 23 04:55
balzacthe licenses are just paranoia-inducing, anti-social, archaic, relics of the pastFeb 23 04:55
oiaohmlicenses have there place.Feb 23 04:55
oiaohmLicences provide the rules.Feb 23 04:56
balzacwell, i'm talking about the licenses which start with "never share this or the FBI will get you"Feb 23 04:56
balzaclike the beginning of a rented movieFeb 23 04:56
oiaohmYou agree to that.Feb 23 04:56
balzacthat's just anti-social and ridiculously alienated from your customersFeb 23 04:56
balzacit induces paranoia and bad customer relationsFeb 23 04:57
balzacnothing good can come of it when they want to prosecute college kids for sharing music onlineFeb 23 04:57
balzacor make businesses paranoid because they can't afford the proprietary softwareFeb 23 04:57
oiaohmWas it illegal to hand copies of tapes around.Feb 23 04:57
oiaohmYes it was.Feb 23 04:58
oiaohmPeople have forgot the law.Feb 23 04:58
balzacthe law has forgotten the peopleFeb 23 04:58
oiaohmNot really.Feb 23 04:58
oiaohmRemember most money exists electronicly.Feb 23 04:59
balzacwhen the law does not keep pace with changing circumstances, people break the law in drovesFeb 23 04:59
oiaohmso would you have problems with people coping and forgin money.Feb 23 04:59
oiaohmRemember anything can be used as money.Feb 23 04:59
*tessier_1 (n=treed@mail.copilotconsulting.com) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 23 05:00
balzacgame currencies how have exchange rates against real currenciesFeb 23 05:00
balzacthe google click could be described as a currencyFeb 23 05:00
oiaohmThe basic laws that cover illegally coping of data also apply to faking money.Feb 23 05:00
balzacnot in any traditional sense, but it sure does enable a lot of transactionsFeb 23 05:00
balzaca lot of value flows as google cliksFeb 23 05:00
*tessier_1 is now known as tessier___Feb 23 05:01
balzacoiaohm: good pointFeb 23 05:01
oiaohmThe law is a interlinked beast.Feb 23 05:01
balzacone I hadn't considered in the context of copyrightFeb 23 05:01
oiaohmRemove the wrong bit you will bring it all down.Feb 23 05:01
balzacbut this is differentFeb 23 05:01
oiaohmBank notes are protected by copyright.Feb 23 05:01
balzacI can see the connectionFeb 23 05:01
oiaohmJust like a lot of other important things.Feb 23 05:02
balzacbut copying movies, songs, games, can be good for artistsFeb 23 05:02
balzaccopying money can only undermine the systemFeb 23 05:02
oiaohmAllowing people freely to break copyright could bring the system complete downing.Feb 23 05:02
oiaohmSo can copying movies.Feb 23 05:02
balzacthere must be integrity in the accounting of the financial infrastructureFeb 23 05:02
oiaohmLarge ammount of money gets invested in making movies.Feb 23 05:02
oiaohmIn hope of a return.Feb 23 05:03
balzacthey need to rely on people's enthusiasm for their productFeb 23 05:03
oiaohmSo each one sold is like a share.Feb 23 05:03
balzacmake me want to see it in the theater instead of on my computerFeb 23 05:03
balzacput it on imaxFeb 23 05:03
balzacsent some cast members to my cityFeb 23 05:03
oiaohmSame thingFeb 23 05:03
oiaohmWithotu money they cannot do imax productions.Feb 23 05:03
oiaohmwithout money they cannot send cast to many locations.Feb 23 05:04
balzacif I want to download it because i don't think it's worth seeing in the theater, i willFeb 23 05:04
balzacwell, you can't get the imax experience from your computerFeb 23 05:04
oiaohmNow lot are coming around to providing legal downloads.Feb 23 05:04
oiaohmSo people still pay part of the share of the costs and make some profits.Feb 23 05:04
balzacwhen you can't enforce the law without invading everybody's privacy, that law is not law anymoreFeb 23 05:05
oiaohmBasically copyright breaching can bring down a lot of industries just like fake money can bring down the lot.Feb 23 05:05
balzacwell, those industries can strangle society if they're not defeatedFeb 23 05:06
oiaohmThat is where you are wrong.Feb 23 05:06
balzacthey have caused the USA to fall behind many countries in broadband deploymentFeb 23 05:06
oiaohmWhat is the most damaging thing to Open Source balzacFeb 23 05:06
balzacopen source?Feb 23 05:06
balzaci'm not sureFeb 23 05:06
oiaohmIllegal copies of software.Feb 23 05:07
oiaohmWhy should someone use Open Source and help develop it when they can get Illegal copies of software for nothing.Feb 23 05:07
oiaohmSame applied to the music and videos.Feb 23 05:08
balzacwell, I agree with RMS that people ought not to encourage proprietary software developers to make more software under bad licenses by purachasing software under those paranoia-inducing licenses.Feb 23 05:08
balzacoiaohm: open source isn't really my thingFeb 23 05:08
balzacI'm enjoying the GPL-licensed software mostlyFeb 23 05:09
oiaohmWhy should people help develop good free content of they flood themselves with Illegally aquired.Feb 23 05:09
oiaohmThis is the problem.  If you truly want to have freedom you have to create a system that works.Feb 23 05:09
oiaohmNot just by pass the rules.Feb 23 05:09
balzacwell, I'll have no part of the system which depends on invading everyone's privacy in order to account for expected profitsFeb 23 05:10
oiaohmReally blocking illegal contentFeb 23 05:10
oiaohmWill force people to think about creating there own.Feb 23 05:10
oiaohmThink before radios and so on we had to create our own music.Feb 23 05:10
oiaohmThe world has got lazy.Feb 23 05:10
balzacyeah, but really blocking illegal content would mean we just found our way into the plot of a science fiction horror movieFeb 23 05:10
balzacbut it's realFeb 23 05:11
oiaohmSimple fact they don't have to do it for ever.Feb 23 05:11
oiaohmIts like over 80 percent of bittorrent traffic is legal content.Feb 23 05:11
balzacwell, control, once acquired, is not relinquishedFeb 23 05:12
balzaclet the world be lazyFeb 23 05:12
oiaohmIts not as big of deal as most people think.Feb 23 05:12
balzacI want to see encrypted streams of copyrighted material going into every home via fiberopticsFeb 23 05:13
balzacthen people will wake up, and stop asserting copyrights against their fans, and acknowledge that the attention of their audience is worth havingFeb 23 05:13
balzacattention has value and is currencyFeb 23 05:13
balzacif people are trading your media on the file-sharing networks, be happy about thatFeb 23 05:14
oiaohmHow do you plan to get the costs back.Feb 23 05:14
balzacthere's value in merely being knownFeb 23 05:14
oiaohmproducing movies don't happen for nothing.Feb 23 05:14
balzachow do you not get the costs back when you've reached a wide audience - just don't make a 50,000,000 dollar movie that file-traders won't even bother to download, because then you're really screwed.Feb 23 05:15
oiaohmHave you not noticed that blueray needs internet so you can play disks.Feb 23 05:15
balzaci don't have any dvdsFeb 23 05:15
balzacI don't care for all the plastic - the data-density is too lowFeb 23 05:16
oiaohmIts a bit like saying MS can live selling XP for 0 dollars.Feb 23 05:16
oiaohmopps windows for 0 dollars.Feb 23 05:16
oiaohmUnless they make income somewhere else they will die.Feb 23 05:16
balzacno, I'm not saying MS can live by selling operating systemsFeb 23 05:16
balzacthey have been attacking their users for so longFeb 23 05:16
oiaohmMovie producting companies are the same.Feb 23 05:16
balzacthey're due to be downsizedFeb 23 05:16
oiaohmIf they don't get income they have to downsize or die.Feb 23 05:17
balzacso, they're due to be downsized as an industry if they don't acknowledge the value of people's attentionFeb 23 05:17
balzacif I'm watching your movie at all, listening to your song at all, be gladFeb 23 05:17
oiaohmHow to turn attention into dollars balzacFeb 23 05:17
balzacbecause I can acquire it if I wantFeb 23 05:17
oiaohmThat is the problem no one is answering.Feb 23 05:17
oiaohmAnswer that and media companines may stop caring.Feb 23 05:18
balzacoiaohm: check out the marketing blogger who has a site called attentiontrust.orgFeb 23 05:18
schestowitzChristopher Hitchens' take on politics is so terrible still (not news to me but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwDk8LOD5... )Feb 23 05:18
balzacsteve rubelFeb 23 05:18
oiaohmHave you seen what those movies look like that follows those rules.Feb 23 05:18
balzacattention is a form of currency. if you can say that your movie was downloaded 10,000,000 times, that's going to be helping, not hurting your revenue from that movie.Feb 23 05:19
schestowitzwb, tessier___ Feb 23 05:19
balzacoiaohm: give me enough attention, I will show you how I convert it dollarsFeb 23 05:20
balzacthere are myriad waysFeb 23 05:20
oiaohmAt how much cost to the movie it self.Feb 23 05:20
oiaohmRemember dick tracy movie.  No single ad placement in it.Feb 23 05:21
balzacoiaohm: as I said, if they company miscalculates, that's too badFeb 23 05:21
balzacit happened with Waterworld - can you blame the file-traders for that? I doubt it has been downloaded by many.Feb 23 05:21
balzacI think we're seeing a lot of complainers who are taking out their failure on file-tradersFeb 23 05:22
oiaohmNow basically if movies are going to work on attantion you basically are going to make movies without embed advertisement impossable.Feb 23 05:22
balzacthey should be worried that file-traders aren't interested in their mediaFeb 23 05:22
oiaohmDo you really want coka cola controling design of movies.Feb 23 05:22
balzacmaybe that's what upsets them the most, because these media conglomerates are losing their grip as the gate-keepers of success and fammeFeb 23 05:23
oiaohmThere are negitivesFeb 23 05:23
schestowitzmovies are already controlled by Colca ColaFeb 23 05:23
oiaohmThat will hapen.Feb 23 05:23
schestowitzA lot of the context is ad-drivenFeb 23 05:23
schestowitzOr producer agenda-drivenFeb 23 05:23
oiaohmNot to the point of controlling the script.Feb 23 05:23
balzacoiaohm: maybe you should be thinking about the way things are going instead of the way they wereFeb 23 05:23
balzacyou can't get the file-traders to stop, everFeb 23 05:24
oiaohmSorry they are stoppable.Feb 23 05:24
oiaohmIf done no one will like it.Feb 23 05:24
balzacthey can be harassedFeb 23 05:24
balzacnot stoppedFeb 23 05:24
oiaohmOnly way they can be stopped is fullly controlled internet conntectionsFeb 23 05:24
oiaohmby by freedom.Feb 23 05:24
balzacif we ever had the infrastructure to enforce the DMCA, we would be living a science ficion horror movieFeb 23 05:24
oiaohmAlready lots of sites supporting illegal software and illegal music ideas are filtered.Feb 23 05:25
balzacoiaohm: fully-controlled internet connections will never be the only connectionsFeb 23 05:25
balzacthat is the nightmareFeb 23 05:25
oiaohmAustralia where I amFeb 23 05:25
oiaohmGoverment can control all ways in.Feb 23 05:25
balzacnot indefinitelyFeb 23 05:25
oiaohmIndefinitelyFeb 23 05:26
balzacand not 200%Feb 23 05:26
balzac100Feb 23 05:26
oiaohmReason the law allows them to.Feb 23 05:26
balzacwell, you can download from torrentsFeb 23 05:26
oiaohmtorrents are blockable.Feb 23 05:26
oiaohmQuite simple really.Feb 23 05:27
balzacwhat does your ISP do if you download a movie?Feb 23 05:27
balzacso, another ISPFeb 23 05:27
oiaohmISPs are at the risk of legally inforced filters.Feb 23 05:27
balzacwell, politicians are a the risk of being smacked downFeb 23 05:27
oiaohmNot really.Feb 23 05:27
oiaohmThey were smart.Feb 23 05:28
oiaohmWho wants to sit in jail without charge.Feb 23 05:28
oiaohmFor a unlimited amount of time.Feb 23 05:28
balzacI'll break copyright proactively and publiclyFeb 23 05:28
oiaohmAnd get no media coverage.Feb 23 05:29
oiaohmIt will be like you did nothing.Feb 23 05:29
balzacI'll make a record of movies and albums I download, and then I'll send the list to the RIAA myselfFeb 23 05:29
oiaohmIllegal software trials here get 0 media coverage.Feb 23 05:29
balzacI don't use proprietary software because it sucksFeb 23 05:30
oiaohmOr music or movies.Feb 23 05:30
balzacnor do I play proprietary gamesFeb 23 05:30
oiaohmBasically you would not exist to everyone else.Feb 23 05:30
balzacbut I do like to download songs and occasionally moviesFeb 23 05:30
balzacmy taste in music can be pretty obscureFeb 23 05:30
oiaohmFunny enough here.  Downloading is not illegal.Feb 23 05:31
oiaohmIts uploading is.Feb 23 05:31
balzacI'm the kind of file-trader who is ignored because my tastes are eclecticFeb 23 05:31
balzacwhy don't you upload something?Feb 23 05:31
balzacupload something as a protestFeb 23 05:31
balzaca small fileFeb 23 05:32
oiaohmIe law applys to passing illegal content on.Feb 23 05:32
oiaohmNot having it.Feb 23 05:32
balzacright, so pass some alongFeb 23 05:32
oiaohmIf caught risk next 15 years in jail.Feb 23 05:32
oiaohmPolice want internet filters so they can catch a lot more.Feb 23 05:32
balzacremember when it was a big deal when DVD encryption was cracked and a code was pasted on Slashdot and Digg?Feb 23 05:33
oiaohmBittorrent breaches our law.Feb 23 05:33
oiaohmCracking DVD encryption is prefectly legal here.Feb 23 05:33
balzacwell, Bush tried to repeal our constitutionFeb 23 05:33
balzacJohn Howard was a scumbagFeb 23 05:33
oiaohmSince you are allows to recode any media you have legally aquired into any format you like.Feb 23 05:33
balzacyou ought to make a name for yourself  by pissing in the face of your governmentFeb 23 05:33
oiaohmJust not allow to legally give it to another person.Feb 23 05:33
balzacpiss in their faces and you will enjoy great fortuneFeb 23 05:34
oiaohmOur laws are some of the most open.Feb 23 05:34
oiaohmAlso why our goverment is annoyed by people not following them.Feb 23 05:34
balzacI don't want an ISP which filters trafficFeb 23 05:35
balzacthey're supposed to be neutral, neither for nor against bit torrent or any other type of contentFeb 23 05:35
balzactheir jobs is to make data flow at specific rates, not to filterFeb 23 05:35
oiaohmBasically if law passes you will not have any other selection here.Feb 23 05:35
balzacif they think their job is also filtering, I will look for other data-servicesFeb 23 05:35
oiaohmAlso filtering provides a way to speed up internet traffic.Feb 23 05:35
oiaohmBig problem with encrypted bit torrent is that it cannot be cached.Feb 23 05:36
balzacwell, we're not lacking in technology for network capacityFeb 23 05:36
oiaohmBy ISP.Feb 23 05:36
oiaohmWe are lacking technology for network capacity.Feb 23 05:36
balzacthere's so much dark fiber, yet to be brought online, because the media companies are clinging to the pastFeb 23 05:36
oiaohmTraffic growth on internet is faster than means to transport that traffic.Feb 23 05:36
balzacthat's by designFeb 23 05:37
oiaohmHere almost most of the fiber links are fully in use.Feb 23 05:37
balzacyou're not lacking in technology, nor budget, you're lacking in access because access is being blockedFeb 23 05:37
oiaohmReason why there is a never ending battle to get more in the groud..Feb 23 05:37
balzacso - destroy those entities which are blocking the deployment of more fiber and satellitesFeb 23 05:37
oiaohmNo balzacFeb 23 05:37
oiaohmAustralia is a huge place with low population.Feb 23 05:38
oiaohmSo distances are also huge.Feb 23 05:38
oiaohmDeploying fiber is not a simple job.Feb 23 05:38
balzacoiaohm: the costs of networking infrastructure are very low compared to other kinds of infrastructureFeb 23 05:39
balzacthe whole world could have free cell phones very easilyFeb 23 05:39
balzaceventually we will all have free international long-distance telephonyFeb 23 05:39
oiaohmSame applies to large oceanFeb 23 05:39
oiaohmdata cable lays.Feb 23 05:39
balzacbut it could be done in a few years if the telcos weren't slowing us down by subverting community networking projects and price-fixingFeb 23 05:40
oiaohmAnnoying some paths we cannot lay fiber sharks in the area attack it.Feb 23 05:40
oiaohmNopFeb 23 05:40
balzacyepFeb 23 05:40
oiaohmcommunity networking here has not blockages in what they are allowed to do.Feb 23 05:40
oiaohmDistance defeats them.Feb 23 05:41
balzacoiaohm: so you need wirelessFeb 23 05:41
oiaohmwireless does not have enough range to get between cities and towns here.Feb 23 05:41
balzacbut your government won't allot the funds, even though the cost of covering AU would be trivialFeb 23 05:41
oiaohmLOLFeb 23 05:42
oiaohmDistance.Feb 23 05:42
balzacLOL yourself, you could make free wireless out in the middle of the pacific at a trivial costFeb 23 05:42
oiaohmPlease look at a map of AustraliaFeb 23 05:42
oiaohmWe do have free wireless networks.Feb 23 05:42
oiaohmIssue is they only work while the poplutation is in range of each other.Feb 23 05:43
balzaclook man - the point is not that it isn't feasible to cover the whole world with free voice and data servicesFeb 23 05:43
balzacthat would not cost muchFeb 23 05:43
balzacit woul be goodFeb 23 05:43
balzacthey have virtually halted the growth of network capacity in order to preserve the privilege of accessFeb 23 05:44
balzacif access is not for the privileged, nobody would buy itFeb 23 05:44
oiaohmmoblie phone network costs about 100 billion here in raw hardware.Feb 23 05:44
oiaohmBecause most of it has to be solar powered.Feb 23 05:44
balzacso these networking companies are in the business of restricting access by lobbying your governmentFeb 23 05:44
oiaohmDistance so far in fact you must design everything to get power where it is.Feb 23 05:45
balzacoiaohm: so if you had a decent government, they wouldn't allow once citizen to lack free wireless broadbandFeb 23 05:45
oiaohmGoverment provides sat broadband.Feb 23 05:45
oiaohmBecause for the simple fact its the only thing that can cover Australia at a effective cost.Feb 23 05:46
oiaohmNow problem how does a community network afford to put a sat up there.Feb 23 05:46
balzacthat's not for AUFeb 23 05:46
balzacthat's for a municipal-scale projectFeb 23 05:46
oiaohmTo cover  Australia it takes 2 sat.Feb 23 05:47
oiaohmWe already have municipal scaleFeb 23 05:47
oiaohmThat does not cover half our poplutation.Feb 23 05:47
oiaohmYes over half don't live in towns or cities.Feb 23 05:47
balzacAustralia can afford networking technology to cover its whole territory for less than 1% of GDP, I bet.Feb 23 05:47
balzacif your whole national infrastructure can be afforded for less than 1% of GDP, that means it isn't done because it isn't feasible, it isn't done because people want to be your gate-keepers and keep you trapped like a bunch of sheep in a fence.Feb 23 05:49
oiaohm1 person  per 2.833/km2 on adverage.Feb 23 05:49
balzacwhat's your GDP?Feb 23 05:49
balzacI'll tell u in a secFeb 23 05:49
oiaohm$762.887 billionFeb 23 05:49
balzacok, if you give me a 7 billion dollar budgetFeb 23 05:51
balzacthat's less than 1%Feb 23 05:51
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...  Australia is one of the lead population per land area in the world.Feb 23 05:52
balzacand I'll give you national broadband coverage over every inch of the outback and tasmania and any islands as wellFeb 23 05:52
balzacand I'll keep most of the money for myselfFeb 23 05:52
oiaohmYou would have to go satFeb 23 05:52
balzacno probFeb 23 05:52
oiaohmSimple fact land basedFeb 23 05:52
oiaohmNo way.Feb 23 05:53
oiaohmThen next problem.  Sat and weather here drops out.Feb 23 05:53
balzac7 billion is my budgetFeb 23 05:53
oiaohmIn the lower half.Feb 23 05:53
oiaohmTaz would give you a big problem.Feb 23 05:53
balzacwell, I'd put up some towers as well, and run some fiber across the continentFeb 23 05:53
balzacwell, I've got 7BFeb 23 05:53
balzacno problemFeb 23 05:53
oiaohmSouthren lights.Feb 23 05:53
balzacI'd use fiber thereFeb 23 05:54
balzacpoint to point direction antennasFeb 23 05:54
oiaohm7 B would go just putting fiber in tazFeb 23 05:54
balzacI'd have all kinds of innovative ideasFeb 23 05:54
oiaohmTo be correct just to lay the link between mainland and tazFeb 23 05:54
balzacwell, not if it were my 7B to spendFeb 23 05:54
oiaohmBass straightFeb 23 05:54
balzacI'd use point-to-point directional antenna insteadFeb 23 05:54
oiaohmAgain not there.Feb 23 05:55
balzachigh-power signalFeb 23 05:55
balzacIFeb 23 05:55
balzacI'd put them upFeb 23 05:55
oiaohmThey have been put there.Feb 23 05:55
oiaohmAnd they have been lost.Feb 23 05:55
oiaohmBass straight.Feb 23 05:55
balzacanyway, you'd have full national coverage for less than 1% of GDPFeb 23 05:55
oiaohmNasty storm generating location.Feb 23 05:55
balzaclost?Feb 23 05:55
balzacok, put up a bigger oneFeb 23 05:55
oiaohmthis is the problemFeb 23 05:56
balzacfool engineers didn't measure wind-strength?Feb 23 05:56
oiaohmAustralia huge.Feb 23 05:56
oiaohmThey did but who allows on a boat being sent into the tower.Feb 23 05:56
balzacwell, I said before the most important thing is to give every citizen access, not to cover empty zones where no people liveFeb 23 05:56
balzacanyway, your country can afford itFeb 23 05:56
oiaohmBasically that section is fiber only.Feb 23 05:56
balzacthe cost of networking equipment is trivialFeb 23 05:57
oiaohmWe have other sections like that as well.Feb 23 05:57
oiaohmLarge place many nasty problems.Feb 23 05:57
balzacyeah, well your gov is the problemFeb 23 05:57
balzacas is oursFeb 23 05:57
oiaohmTotal worked out cost is half our our GDP to do it.Feb 23 05:57
oiaohmyes ouch.Feb 23 05:58
balzacI think you should have the kind of broadband they have in tokyo over every inch of the outback, and 100 miles out to sea from the coastFeb 23 05:58
balzacjust in case you should go yachtingFeb 23 05:58
balzacoiaohm: where did you get that figureFeb 23 05:59
balzac06:04 < oiaohm> Total worked out cost is half our our GDP to do it.Feb 23 05:59
balzacthat can't be rightFeb 23 05:59
balzacif you wanted to cover your whole continent in pleather, it might be half your GDPFeb 23 05:59
oiaohmThat was when that were valuing the telstra network.Feb 23 05:59
oiaohmto replace it.Feb 23 05:59
balzacwell, they happen to be lying sacks of shitFeb 23 05:59
balzaclying sacks of shitFeb 23 05:59
oiaohmThere is a nasty little problem.Feb 23 06:00
balzacyeah, lobbyistsFeb 23 06:00
oiaohmSome areas to put cable in the ground take about 200 kg of c4 a km.Feb 23 06:00
balzacso don't put it in the ground, put it on a cable above groundFeb 23 06:00
oiaohmVery hard rock.Feb 23 06:00
balzacso what, why make this so difficult?Feb 23 06:01
oiaohmFiber cable above ground in those areas get lighting struck.Feb 23 06:01
balzacinsulationFeb 23 06:01
balzacthis is for engineers to figure outFeb 23 06:01
oiaohmthat is the problem.Feb 23 06:01
balzacit would obviously be less costly to have thick insulation rather than dynamite through rockFeb 23 06:01
oiaohmso far none of the current tech works cheaply.Feb 23 06:01
balzacno, it's not a big dealFeb 23 06:02
oiaohm1 metre into rock gives you insulation that will hold against a lighting strike.Feb 23 06:02
balzacnot cheap enough for the cheap-bastards who run your governmentFeb 23 06:02
oiaohmPutting 1 meter of insultation around cable will give you the same thing.Feb 23 06:02
balzacwhich ever is cheaperFeb 23 06:03
oiaohmReally you don't want to be trying to move cable with 1 meter think insulation.Feb 23 06:03
balzacno, put the cable down, build casing over it made from local materialsFeb 23 06:03
oiaohmOr putting any other rock sub that thick on.Feb 23 06:03
oiaohmBlasting is still cheaper than doing that balzacFeb 23 06:03
balzacwho says your insulation has to be a meter thickFeb 23 06:03
balzacwe have lightning in the US toFeb 23 06:03
balzacit's not another planet you live onFeb 23 06:04
oiaohmIts just some areas.  Nice plasma balls.Feb 23 06:04
oiaohmOk goverment could always try to move people out of those areas.Feb 23 06:04
balzacyeah, well i'm just saying - give me the 7B and you'd have everything - so don't take excuses of your government, their lobbyists from the networking companies seriously - they don't take you seriously.Feb 23 06:05
oiaohm7B would work on something the size of TazFeb 23 06:05
oiaohmIts population is tightly confined.Feb 23 06:06
balzachow many people live in tasmania?Feb 23 06:06
balzachow many natives are leftFeb 23 06:06
oiaohm500,000Feb 23 06:07
oiaohmNo natives Tasmania had them all nuked.Feb 23 06:07
oiaohmIssue down there is more getting links out.Feb 23 06:08
balzac500,000 is not many usersFeb 23 06:08
oiaohm68,401 km€² in that land areaFeb 23 06:09
oiaohmLow dencity is what makes it hard here.Feb 23 06:10
balzacLinking North America and France, the 3,148-mile cable is capable of handling 40,000 telephone calls simultaneously using 1.3-micrometer wavelength lasers and single-mode fiber. The total cost of $361 millionFeb 23 06:10
balzacthis was  1988      First transatlantic fiber-optic cableFeb 23 06:10
balzachttp://www.greatachievements.org/?id=3706Feb 23 06:11
oiaohmAustraliaFeb 23 06:11
balzacdon't tell me 7B for tasmaniaFeb 23 06:11
oiaohmOnly country with sharks that like eating cables.Feb 23 06:11
balzacthis was shark-proof cableFeb 23 06:11
oiaohmNo it was not.Feb 23 06:11
balzacThe shark-proof TAT-8 is dedicated by science fiction writer Isaac Asimov, who praises "this maiden voyage across the sea on a beam of light." Linking North America and FranceFeb 23 06:12
oiaohmSame type of cable was layed across our coral sea.Feb 23 06:12
oiaohmLasted 3 months.Feb 23 06:12
balzacwell, I'd put down a companion cable which gave a signal annoying to sharksFeb 23 06:12
balzacor put some chemical in the casing they couldn't stand to biteFeb 23 06:13
oiaohmIts return to copper cable.Feb 23 06:13
balzacor just a little something which their teeth couldn't penetrateFeb 23 06:13
oiaohmSharks don't mind that.Feb 23 06:13

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