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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 18th, 2009 - Part 3



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_Hicham_I didn't know that there is a lot of Ubuntu hatersMar 18 21:53
trmanco_Hicham_, they had to grab market share somehowMar 18 21:53
schestowitzMinceR: Apple doesn't do HTMLMar 18 21:53
schestowitzKDE did (KHTML)Mar 18 21:53
MinceRso how did they campaign against ogg theora in html5?Mar 18 21:53
_Hicham_trmanco : but since FF2, the plugin don't workMar 18 21:53
schestowitzApple does flashy widgets and ihtmlMar 18 21:53
trmancountil they finally stabilized with there own technologiesMar 18 21:53
schestowitzOh! and they have patents there inside the W3cc...Mar 18 21:54
schestowitzBut recent controversy btwMar 18 21:54
schestowitzThey poison the standard with landminesMar 18 21:54
_Hicham_MinceR : ogg theora is supported natively in FF3.1Mar 18 21:54
schestowitzLike RambusMar 18 21:54
trmanco_Hicham_, what plugin?Mar 18 21:54
MinceR_Hicham_: doesn't make it a w3c standard thoughMar 18 21:54
schestowitzIt should have been thatMar 18 21:54
schestowitzNokalle don't countMar 18 21:55
_Hicham_trmanco : Mozilla ActiveX pluginMar 18 21:55
trmancoha that crapMar 18 21:55
schestowitzPoetice justice, in codeMar 18 21:55
schestowitz*PoeticMar 18 21:55
trmancogood thing it doesn't work, was it official anyway?Mar 18 21:56
schestowitzMozilla detoxicated itself from Windows SnyderMar 18 21:56
schestowitzMS employeeMar 18 21:56
MinceRexcept for the "justice" partMar 18 21:56
trmancocode is poetryMar 18 21:56
schestowitzNo longer will Mozilla people 'praise' Microsoft... e.g. for securityMar 18 21:56
trmancobut it really depends on who writes this type of "poetry"Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz*Window, not Windows (Freudian slip)Mar 18 21:56
schestowitzLinus Torvalds: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code."Mar 18 21:57
trmancohehe, computer scientist quotes :-PMar 18 21:57
schestowitzWho is Alexander Larsson? http://blogs.gnome.org/alex...Mar 18 21:58
trmancoI wonder what it takes to be oneMar 18 21:58
schestowitzLinux File Systems: Ext4. Btrfs. Do we understand what we need? <  http://blog.hydrasystemsllc.com/2009/03/17... >Mar 18 21:58
trmancothis might be the future jaunty background -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incomi...Mar 18 22:00
MinceRbut what will karmic look like?Mar 18 22:06
MinceRthey said it won't be brownMar 18 22:06
MinceR(finally)Mar 18 22:06
schestowitztrmanco: COLA's been quiet for the past 2 days. I'll post some newsMar 18 22:07
schestowitzMinceR: yes, maybe not by default. WHo knows...Mar 18 22:07
Balrog__about the Mozilla ActiveX plugin:Mar 18 22:08
Balrog__<< This plug-in is not part of the Mozilla distribution and even if it were it would be disabled by default. It is extremely, hell-freezing-overly, unlikely that Mozilla is ever going to support ActiveX by default. This plug-in is designed for custom, legacy and intranet solutions and nothing else.Mar 18 22:08
MinceRthey could call the new theme Inhuman ;)Mar 18 22:08
schestowitzBrown is part of the Ubuntu identity/brand. Else it's JAG (Just another GNOME)Mar 18 22:08
MinceRperhaps it's time to switch ubuntu with kubuntu and rename ubuntu to gubuntu and kubuntu to ubuntu? :>Mar 18 22:08
schestowitzMinceR: should call it "OhMan!"Mar 18 22:09
MinceRor SuperhumanMar 18 22:09
schestowitzThat'd be MS styleMar 18 22:09
schestowitzUltimateMar 18 22:09
schestowitzSupra Ultra..Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz"Professional"Mar 18 22:09
schestowitzImplicitly: Apple is not professionaMar 18 22:09
schestowitzUbuntu is not "ultimate"Mar 18 22:09
MinceRwe know thatMar 18 22:09
MinceRneither is m$, thoughMar 18 22:09
schestowitzas in "not people-ready"Mar 18 22:09
schestowitzMinceR: not trueMar 18 22:09
MinceRReady for the Not-People?Mar 18 22:10
schestowitzWindows is very business read... for crackersMar 18 22:10
schestowitz"Letsa get down to bizniz!!"Mar 18 22:10
MinceRwindows is professional in the way a whore is.Mar 18 22:10
schestowitzIt's part of the MS ecosystemMar 18 22:10
schestowitzWait until crackers attack LinuxMar 18 22:10
schestowitzTo keep Windows hosts out there for pickingsMar 18 22:10
schestowitzMicrosoft: the Amsterdamn[sic] of OSesMar 18 22:11
schestowitz(not with extra Cr4ack (not the drug"Mar 18 22:12
schestowitz^typos.Mar 18 22:12
_Hicham_I read an anecdote in which they gathered a bunch of talented crackers to do a comparisonMar 18 22:16
_Hicham_how much will a Windows system resistMar 18 22:17
MinceRthat's a pretty degrading thing to say of Amsterdam.Mar 18 22:17
_Hicham_and how much a Linux system willMar 18 22:17
MinceRthere was an event with windows vs linux vs macosMar 18 22:17
_Hicham_well, a freshly installed Windows can't resist a secondMar 18 22:17
MinceRwindows was broken first, macos second, linux neverMar 18 22:17
_Hicham_while Linux (Debian)  has taken two month to be broken inMar 18 22:18
_Hicham_and guess what ?Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_Windows was equipped with a firewallMar 18 22:18
_Hicham_while Debian was notMar 18 22:18
_Hicham_i am looking for that storyMar 18 22:18
schestowitzMinceR: Mac firstMar 18 22:21
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Mar 18 22:21
schestowitzUbuntu/Mac/Windows security challenge last yearMar 18 22:22
schestowitzSAFARI~1.EXE did itMar 18 22:22
MinceRoh.Mar 18 22:22
schestowitzon the MacMar 18 22:22
schestowitz[no EXE.. just joking]Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz.MacMar 18 22:22
schestowitziSafMar 18 22:22
MinceR'look how elite we are, we can rip KHTML off and say it's ours'Mar 18 22:22
schestowitzAnd add GUIMar 18 22:23
schestowitzWith HCI stuffMar 18 22:23
*PetoKraus (n=pk@cpc1-broo6-0-0-cust1009.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovellMar 18 22:23
MinceRoh, yes, forgot the 'add a retarded, unusable gui' partMar 18 22:24
schestowitzI told you apple like fossMar 18 22:24
schestowitzFree codeMar 18 22:24
schestowitzApple likes freedom (of cost)Mar 18 22:24
schestowitzThere are one-man project that do the sameMar 18 22:24
schestowitzslap in some gecko, use gtk/qt/motif/whataveerMar 18 22:25
schestowitzChrome tooMar 18 22:25
schestowitzUses KHTMLMar 18 22:25
schestowitzThe ripped off versionMar 18 22:25
MinceRyes, they like it in the same way m$ doesMar 18 22:25
MinceRand they use it in the same way tooMar 18 22:25
Balrog__well, WebKit is foss ... not so with MS productsMar 18 22:26
MinceRosx isn't foss thoughMar 18 22:26
MinceRand neither is safariMar 18 22:26
Balrog__no (os x) it isn't and it probably won't be anytime soon.Mar 18 22:26
schestowitzMinceR: Apple is open (about it)Mar 18 22:27
MinceRscrewing around the API of the engine does no contribution makeMar 18 22:27
schestowitzMicrosoft uses BSD and keeps quietMar 18 22:27
Balrog__they are working on a GTK ui for WebKitMar 18 22:27
MinceRapple are?Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__the webkit peopleMar 18 22:27
Balrog__not sure if it's appleMar 18 22:27
MinceRso it's probably not appleMar 18 22:27
Balrog__also, the kernel is foss (if you consider APSL to be foss)Mar 18 22:27
MinceRso it has nothing to do with the discussion at handMar 18 22:27
Balrog__I'd assume Apple employees are helpingMar 18 22:28
MinceRi'd assume apple employees are trying to do more damage, just like they've ever doneMar 18 22:28
MinceRsteal the code, lock it down, add DRM, sell it for tons of $$$ and be smug about how clever you areMar 18 22:28
Balrog__MinceR: why do you blast Apple so much and not MS or the other more damaging ones?Mar 18 22:28
_Hicham_Apple employees didn't help even KDE developersMar 18 22:28
MinceRBalrog__: oh, i do blast m$ tooMar 18 22:29
_Hicham_the creators of KHTMLMar 18 22:29
Balrog___Hicham_: that did get set straight after a whileMar 18 22:29
MinceRBalrog__: it's just that apple cultists are so blinded by the RDF they don't notice when apple is doing the exact same things m$ isMar 18 22:29
Balrog__MinceR: this whole 'rdf' thing is overblownMar 18 22:30
Balrog__yes, there are some that are blindedMar 18 22:30
MinceRthat's what i'd expect an apple fanboy to sayMar 18 22:30
Balrog__but a large majority (of technical people) aren'tMar 18 22:30
Balrog__go to a rumor site and look at the forumsMar 18 22:30
Balrog__there are _a lot_ of complaintsMar 18 22:30
MinceRand yet when they talk to a non-cultist, all we hear is "it just works" and it's so great and we're so stupid because we don't use appleMar 18 22:31
Balrog__MinceR: hackintosh will never 'just work'Mar 18 22:31
MinceRand they keep telling me their jesusPhone is the second comingMar 18 22:31
MinceReven if i tell them a couple of fundamental ways it failsMar 18 22:32
Balrog__who are these people?Mar 18 22:32
MinceRapple fanboysMar 18 22:32
Balrog__MinceR: 'fundamental' ways?Mar 18 22:32
MinceRthey're everywhereMar 18 22:32
MinceRfundamental things one would expect from a smartphone?Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__no keyboard? there are problems with keyboards.Mar 18 22:32
MinceRyou know, the kind of phone you can get for a quarter of the price of a jesusPhone?Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__multitasking? battery life <<<Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__MinceR: I haven't seen a similar phone for $50Mar 18 22:33
Balrog__USDMar 18 22:33
Balrog__the G1 is more expensive, and doesn't even have the 8GB flashMar 18 22:33
MinceRthat reminds me of a story when apple cut a complete, fully developed feature from a sw they released because jobs thought it would confuse some usersMar 18 22:33
MinceRsee, that kind of contempt is what makes me really hate appleMar 18 22:33
Balrog__MinceR: how is that 'contempt'?Mar 18 22:34
MinceRthey practically tell their users "you're idiots and you'll buy any crap from us"Mar 18 22:34
MinceRand they doMar 18 22:34
Balrog__MinceR: what about featuritis? I don't think they want that in their productsMar 18 22:34
MinceRwindows might treat the user like a complete idiot, but it isn't in the same league apple products are inMar 18 22:34
Balrog__(many Linux apps have it, many many more Windows apps do)Mar 18 22:34
MinceRwhen they don't tell you it's 65536 colors because 'you don't need to know'Mar 18 22:34
Balrog__Isn't 'thousands' good enough? I mean you can go look it upMar 18 22:35
MinceRah, the myth of the feature set that's just enoughMar 18 22:35
MinceRi prefer to be told what it isMar 18 22:35
Balrog__heard of crappy japanese phones?Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__(with too many features)Mar 18 22:35
MinceRthere's no such thing as "too many features"Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__yes there isMar 18 22:35
MinceRdo you honestly expect to use every single feature of everything you buy?Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__if they don't work properly or are overly complicated, it's too manyMar 18 22:36
MinceRdo you honestly expect everyone else's needs to match yours exactly?Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented featuresMar 18 22:36
Balrog__MinceR: not my pointMar 18 22:36
MinceRdo you honestly expect your own needs to be constant?Mar 18 22:36
MinceRapple certainly doesMar 18 22:36
Balrog__<<Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented featuresMar 18 22:36
Balrog__not MY needsMar 18 22:36
Balrog__*working* and I mean working wellMar 18 22:36
MinceRso your needs are unimportant?Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__my needs are important, but if the features that are supposed to meet my needs don't work half the time (or are overly complicated) then they're uselessMar 18 22:37
MinceRthat's an entirely different issue from "too many features"Mar 18 22:37
MinceRit's called bad qualityMar 18 22:37
Balrog__one thing Apple is doing is making sure all features have high quality before shippingMar 18 22:38
MinceRone thing apple is failing at, i seeMar 18 22:38
Balrog__MinceR: explain how they're failingMar 18 22:38
Balrog__at making sure /included/ features work wellMar 18 22:39
MinceRor do you consider bricking a mac on an os update "high quality"?Mar 18 22:39
Balrog__which update bricked macs?Mar 18 22:39
Balrog__??Mar 18 22:40
MinceRhttp://tech.slashdot.org/article...Mar 18 22:40
MinceRthis oneMar 18 22:40
Balrog__If you're talking about the iphone, the community figured out how to unbrick themMar 18 22:40
Balrog__MinceR: that has happened to me with Windows AND LinuxMar 18 22:41
MinceRanother feature that works flawlessly: http://go2xserve.com/Mar 18 22:41
Balrog__so far not with macMar 18 22:41
MinceRwow, the community figured out, that's great!Mar 18 22:41
MinceRis that what passes for "just works" around your people?Mar 18 22:41
Balrog__the community did the jailbreak / unlock in the first placeMar 18 22:41
MinceRsee, that's the RDF everyone else is talking aboutMar 18 22:41
MinceRyes, because they had toMar 18 22:41
MinceRbecause it's a locked down piece of shitMar 18 22:42
Balrog__therefore they did the unbrickingMar 18 22:42
MinceReverything from apple is a locked down piece of shitMar 18 22:42
MinceRand when i mention that, the fanboy says "but you can jailbreak it!"Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__there were some unlocks that did nasty things to the baseband back thenMar 18 22:42
MinceRthey don't care about warrantyMar 18 22:42
MinceRor if it breaks something elseMar 18 22:42
Balrog__so I wouldn't be surprised if updating such an unlocked device would break the basebandMar 18 22:42
MinceRin the mind of the apple fanboy, if it has an apple logo in it, it's perfect and it just worksMar 18 22:42
schestowitzMac have been bricked more than onceMar 18 22:42
schestowitzI saw incidents in 2005Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__MinceR: what other than the baseband could be bricked?Mar 18 22:43
schestowitzCLI-only on Mac bootMar 18 22:43
MinceRBalrog__: do i care what could be bricked in that overpriced paperweight?Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__schestowitz: there wer some problems with the imac G3 back in 2000 or soMar 18 22:43
schestowitzBut "mac rumours" sites won't talk about *that&Mar 18 22:43
MinceRif it's bricked, it's bricked.Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__There's rom recovery modeMar 18 22:43
schestowitzYesMar 18 22:43
schestowitzRecovery CDsMar 18 22:43
Balrog__aka DFU mode (in ipod/iphone)Mar 18 22:44
schestowitzLike global rest in Palm ISMar 18 22:44
schestowitz*OSMar 18 22:44
schestowitzHard resetMar 18 22:44
MinceRand if you'll follow the link, you'll see that it's about desktop macs, not the jesusPhone.Mar 18 22:44
Balrog__<< Device Failsafe UtilityMar 18 22:44
MinceRbtw i have a palm that bricked itselfMar 18 22:44
Balrog__Yes, resetting the PMU is considered standard procedure for dealing with problemsMar 18 22:45
Balrog__(on the Mac)Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__if it's hardwareMar 18 22:45
Balrog__explain about the Palm. I have one but it's unstableMar 18 22:45
Balrog__many times more unstable than an iphone/ipod touchMar 18 22:45
MinceRone month after the warranty expired it decided it won't boot anymoreMar 18 22:45
MinceRit's frozen at the boot screen, flashing a bar at the top of the screenMar 18 22:45
MinceRhard reset doesn't helpMar 18 22:45
Balrog__:(Mar 18 22:46
MinceRoh, and it took my data with itself, of courseMar 18 22:46
Balrog__that's nasty.Mar 18 22:46
Balrog__About the iphone .... even if it's bricked, only the cell / wifi stuff stops working. The rest is still okMar 18 22:47
Balrog__Basically the baseband is wrecked.Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__(this is only the 1st-gen)Mar 18 22:47
MinceRdoes it boot that way?Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__No, it boots the main CPU.Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__The CPU talks to the baseband using AT commandsMar 18 22:48
MinceRand the os is ok with the baseband not responding?Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__(think modems)Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__yes.Mar 18 22:48
MinceRbtw the main cpu part could be bricked too if the memory it boots from can be alteredMar 18 22:48
Balrog__but at the lowest level, it boots from *ROM*Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__and in that ROM, there's recovery modeMar 18 22:48
Balrog__that's why Apple couldn't patch the jailbreakMar 18 22:49
MinceRand where does it take the data to recover?Mar 18 22:49
Balrog__via USBMar 18 22:49
MinceRicMar 18 22:49
Balrog__<< Unlike the main s5l8900 CPU, the S-Gold can actually be brickedMar 18 22:50
Balrog__http://wikee.iphwn.org/sgold_bootrom:brickMar 18 22:50
Balrog__remember this is the *baseband*Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__(which controls all radio comm)Mar 18 22:50
MinceRso you'd end up with a lame pdaMar 18 22:50
Balrog__when bricked, "Your cellphone and Edge and WiFi can be lost forever."Mar 18 22:51
MinceRinstead of the lame phone you begin withMar 18 22:51
MinceRvery comfortingMar 18 22:51
Balrog__yes, a lame PDA, without wifi or bluetoothMar 18 22:51
MinceRremember, this is a danger you take just to be able to install apps you wantMar 18 22:51
MinceR"just works" indeed.Mar 18 22:51
Balrog__now the 3G is very different....its baseband uses many levels of sigchecking and verificationMar 18 22:51
Balrog__the unlock for it is temporary ... it runs as a daemon that gets loaded each time the device is bootedMar 18 22:52
MinceRjust the thing i'm dreaming of running on a mobile deviceMar 18 22:52
MinceRit doesn't drain the battery does it? :>Mar 18 22:52
Balrog__no, because once it runs it doesn't have to keep runningMar 18 22:53
MinceRdoesn't sound like a daemon to meMar 18 22:53
Balrog__once the BB is running 'unlocked' code, you're okMar 18 22:53
MinceRthough somehow my qtek 9100 uses advanced technology that makes such things unnecessaryMar 18 22:53
Balrog__the daemon part makes sure it runs again if you go into airplane mode and back outMar 18 22:53
MinceRit wasn't locked to any provider when i bought itMar 18 22:53
Balrog__talk to AT&T or the providers :/Mar 18 22:53
MinceRi wonder when apple will gain access to such wonderful technology!Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__there ARE iphones is Europe and Asia that have unlocked iPhonesMar 18 22:54
MinceRno, talk to steve jobsMar 18 22:54
Balrog__be prepared to pay thoughMar 18 22:54
MinceRask him why he's so focused on screwing his own customersMar 18 22:54
MinceRvia lockdown and DRMMar 18 22:54
MinceRand ask yourself why you still bend over and smile while you get this treatmentMar 18 22:54
Balrog__MinceR: another problem: the radio in the iphone follows worldwide 3G standards.Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__T-Mobile chose not to follow themMar 18 22:54
Balrog__therefore, iphone + T-mobile in US == no-3GMar 18 22:54
MinceRwell, t-mobile (t-* in general) is all shades of crap here tooMar 18 22:55
Balrog__so what choice do you have? T-mobile and ATTMar 18 22:55
Balrog__(with an unlocked device)Mar 18 22:56
MinceRthey invented "unlimited internet access that has a limit" here in hungaryMar 18 22:56
Balrog__at least in the US it's like thatMar 18 22:56
MinceRhere we have t-mobile, pannon (telenor) and vodafoneMar 18 22:56
MinceRi'm using pannonMar 18 22:56
Balrog__source code to iphone 3g unlock: http://xs1.iphwn.org/releases/ye...Mar 18 22:56
MinceRi started with vodafone but i got tired of their crap service and didn't want to pay for overpriced gprsMar 18 22:56
Balrog__MinceR: here we also have Verizon and SprintMar 18 22:56
Balrog__but those are CDMA servicesMar 18 22:57
Balrog__no GSMMar 18 22:57
MinceRand t-mobile was quite obviously overpriced to start withMar 18 22:57
Balrog__here they're all overpricedMar 18 22:57
MinceRthey're probably all overpricedMar 18 22:57
MinceRbut t-mobile beats the others at that game hereMar 18 22:57
PeterFACell phone service...Mar 18 22:57
PeterFAAh, the telecoms.Mar 18 22:57
PeterFAIf I ever need a bona fide necessary evil, telecom is it.Mar 18 22:58
MinceRmaking a deal with a telco shows just how much apple cares about their customersMar 18 22:58
Balrog__no, it shows how broken the law in the US isMar 18 22:58
Balrog__everyone does it in the USMar 18 22:58
Balrog__not only AppleMar 18 22:58
Balrog__the RAZR was like that ... with Verizon I belieceMar 18 22:59
MinceRapple did it worldwideMar 18 22:59
Balrog__s/c/vMar 18 22:59
MinceRiirc until they got slapped on the wrist by authorities in europeMar 18 22:59
Balrog__MinceR: also what about (a) visual voicemail and (b) subsidies?Mar 18 22:59
MinceRi don't know what "visual voicemail" is supposed to beMar 18 22:59
Balrog__in Europe there were various problemsMar 18 22:59
MinceRas for subsidies, the telco can keep their damn money, if i'm buying a phone i'm going to own itMar 18 22:59
Balrog__basically you see a list of your voicemail messages and you can click on one to listen to itMar 18 23:00
Balrog__Then do you wish to pay $599?Mar 18 23:00
MinceRnone of the 3 phones i've bought so far were locked to a providerMar 18 23:00
MinceRi pay as much as it costsMar 18 23:00
MinceRif it's subsidized, you still pay the costMar 18 23:00
MinceRbut you also get screwed in the processMar 18 23:00
Balrog__no, you get locked in for 2 yearsMar 18 23:00
Balrog__which may equal screwed, depending on the situationMar 18 23:01
MinceRi don't use voicemail -- if they want to send me a message, there's a perfectly functional SMS for thatMar 18 23:01
Balrog__SMS is a ripoffMar 18 23:01
Balrog__$1500 per megabyteMar 18 23:01
MinceRvoicemail is a ripoff tooMar 18 23:01
Balrog__at least hereMar 18 23:01
MinceRi need to pay to listen to itMar 18 23:01
Balrog__voicemail is regular ratesMar 18 23:01
MinceRi can receive text messages free of chargeMar 18 23:01
Balrog__MinceR: Not true in the USA.Mar 18 23:02
trmancomehMar 18 23:02
MinceRwell, the usa sucksMar 18 23:02
trmancoTuz?Mar 18 23:02
trmancololMar 18 23:02
Balrog__texts are 10-25 cents both waysMar 18 23:02
Balrog__(each way, actually)Mar 18 23:02
MinceRalso, voicemail takes more time to use because it's speechMar 18 23:03
Balrog__true, though with visual voicemail you can delete a message you don't want to listen toMar 18 23:03
MinceR(even if it isn't the horrible wait-fest an answering machine playback is)Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__I prefer texts, but then again, many people have landlines here alsoMar 18 23:03
Balrog__which means NO SMSMar 18 23:03
Balrog__(from a landline)Mar 18 23:03
MinceRthey could get ISDN, though :>Mar 18 23:04
Balrog__do you know how EXPENSIVE ISDN is????Mar 18 23:04
MinceRi doMar 18 23:04
Balrog__more than I want to think of payingMar 18 23:04
Balrog__:[Mar 18 23:04
MinceR(though i wonder how they still justify it)Mar 18 23:04
MinceR(not the 30-line version, obviously)Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__even the 1-line version costs too muchMar 18 23:05
Balrog__regular basic phone is $15 per month hereMar 18 23:05
MinceRbtw you can send text messages from the internet tooMar 18 23:05
Balrog__yes, not everyone has that or knows how to do itMar 18 23:05
MinceRif you use a wap push test page, it can even be free :>Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__via AIM it's free, but doesn't work to my phoneMar 18 23:06
Balrog__via email it worksMar 18 23:06
MinceR:)Mar 18 23:06
Balrog__but then again, there are many people who don't have those / don't want to go through the trouble of doing soMar 18 23:06
MinceRwell, i don't want to go through the trouble of using voicemailMar 18 23:07
MinceRalso, they can wait until i become available -- it rarely takes long :>Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__I prefer not to, but I still get them occasionallyMar 18 23:07
MinceRfirst thing i did was to disable voicemailMar 18 23:07
Balrog__what about MMS?Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__do you use it?Mar 18 23:08
MinceRnopeMar 18 23:08
Balrog__ok.Mar 18 23:08
MinceRmaybe i've received one in my lifeMar 18 23:08
MinceRbut generally i'd rather use email for thatMar 18 23:08
Balrog__that's another thing that apple left out of the iphone (until 3.0)Mar 18 23:08
MinceRi knowMar 18 23:08
MinceRit's going to be fun seeing the fanboys drool to see "new" features everyone else has had for decadesMar 18 23:09
Balrog__MinceR: I've seen those features from 'everyone else'Mar 18 23:09
Balrog__Apple seems to be better at implementing themMar 18 23:09
Balrog__we'll see the side-by-side comparisons :)Mar 18 23:10
Balrog__the developers are happy, that's for sureMar 18 23:10
MinceRi doubt they can win at even an arbitrarily vague scenario you're trying to set upMar 18 23:10
MinceRwell, the developers whose apps happened to be accepted, that isMar 18 23:11
Balrog__they say 96% of apps last month were accepted.Mar 18 23:11
Balrog__You heard of the 'fart' apps and all, right?Mar 18 23:11
MinceRwell, the developers have already learned what they shouldn't even tryMar 18 23:11
Balrog__Also, Apple added allowed API's for a lot of the stuffMar 18 23:12
MinceRi'd care more about the background music player apps and the programming language interpreter appsMar 18 23:12
MinceRguess what, you can't do thoseMar 18 23:12
Balrog__like music database access, proximity sensor access, etcMar 18 23:12
MinceRor provide an improved replacement for anything it ships withMar 18 23:12
MinceRor something that happens to bother at&tMar 18 23:12
Balrog__Background music players would be fine only if they give you a big warning or some other notification saying "app *** may use battery life!!!"Mar 18 23:13
MinceRor something that happens to provide an important feature apple managed to left outMar 18 23:13
MinceR(copy/paste anyone?)Mar 18 23:13
MinceRi know they use battery lifeMar 18 23:13
MinceRthat's how CMOS works, you knowMar 18 23:13
MinceRif a state transition happens, current flowsMar 18 23:13
Balrog__the 'improved replacement' thing was treated interestingly ... at first those were rejected, then they started appearing (like improved mail apps)Mar 18 23:13
MinceRif battery life was all i cared about, i wouldn't put the damn thing into a mobile device in the first placeMar 18 23:14
Balrog__copy/paste would require a global temp dir. Apple didn't provide thatMar 18 23:14
MinceRyeah, we've heard all the excuses.Mar 18 23:14
MinceRthe bottom line is that all apple products are seriously lacking in functionalityMar 18 23:15
MinceRand the only people who don't realize this are the apple fanboys.Mar 18 23:15
Balrog__Have you tried anything other than hackintosh?Mar 18 23:15
MinceRand the apple fanboys will naturally keep denying that they're delusionalMar 18 23:15
Balrog__I tried hackintosh and it was not a good experience at all.Mar 18 23:15
MinceRi'm not sure what you mean by hackintoshMar 18 23:16
Balrog__osx on non-Apple hardware.Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__The drivers are messyMar 18 23:16
Balrog__so is the kernelMar 18 23:16
Balrog__you almost never get native support/performanceMar 18 23:16
MinceRi didn't expect it to be fast or stable or to have 3d accelerationMar 18 23:16
MinceRi expected the gui to be as usable as the hype says it isMar 18 23:16
MinceRit wasn'tMar 18 23:16
Balrog__if it's slow, it won't be usableMar 18 23:16
MinceRi disregarded slowness because of thatMar 18 23:17
_Hicham_OSX is always hardware dependentMar 18 23:17
Balrog__if you want mousefocus go somewhere else. It's messy everywhere.Mar 18 23:17
MinceRyes, if i want a gui that works the way i want it, i should go somewhere elseMar 18 23:17
MinceRthat's what i'm doingMar 18 23:17
MinceRand yes, osx is messy everywhereMar 18 23:17
MinceRmaybe someday apple will learn that not all users have the exact same needs and preferencesMar 18 23:18
MinceRor they'll go bankruptMar 18 23:18
MinceRand the fanboys won't understand why.Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__MinceR: I find the OS X gui more flexible than windowsMar 18 23:18
Balrog__or for that matter, xfceMar 18 23:18
MinceRi find it less flexibleMar 18 23:18
Balrog__but then again, it's understandable with xfceMar 18 23:18
Balrog__KDE has all the features but try finding them :PMar 18 23:20
Balrog__Gnome ... well, ask LinuxMar 18 23:21
Balrog__Linus **Mar 18 23:21
MinceRi can find themMar 18 23:21
MinceRand i think anyone who has the intelligence that's necessary to use a light switch can find themMar 18 23:22
Balrog__so can I. But a very small handful of people I know use mousefocus....probably one or two at most (other than you)Mar 18 23:22
MinceR(oh, well, let's add literacy as a requirement)Mar 18 23:22
MinceRthe point is to provide the optionMar 18 23:22
MinceRm$ and apple both believe they know better than the userMar 18 23:23
MinceRthey don't.Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__there's shareware that seems to add it....http://atomicbird.com/mo...Mar 18 23:23
MinceRuntil they realize that their guis will always inevitably suck.Mar 18 23:23
MinceRthis is something their self-appointed "usability experts" should realize.Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__(and other 'hacks'...)Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__you'll have very cluttered code if you implement every feature every person wantsMar 18 23:24
Balrog__even the Linux programmers know this.Mar 18 23:24
MinceRwell, focus follows mouse is nice on osx, but how will you reach the menu?Mar 18 23:24
MinceRsome idiot had the idea to put it at the topMar 18 23:24
MinceRwhat if another window is in the way?Mar 18 23:24
MinceRthat's right, it will receive focus and suddenly its menu is thereMar 18 23:24
Balrog__what about COMMAND-something?Mar 18 23:24
Balrog__also, the menu bar never gets coveredMar 18 23:25
MinceRsometimes i don't want to mess with the keyboardMar 18 23:25
MinceRalso, the menu bar of the topmost window never gets covered even if it isn't nailed to the topMar 18 23:25
Balrog__I've seen apps with no menubars :-oMar 18 23:25
MinceRso have iMar 18 23:25
Balrog__(on windows and linux)Mar 18 23:25
MinceRand i still prefer the risc os wayMar 18 23:25
MinceRbtw, not even i knew what i wanted my gui to be like until i experimented a lot.Mar 18 23:35
PetoKrauswellMar 18 23:39
PetoKrausi am so used to my UIMar 18 23:39
PetoKrausthat i can't work with anything elseMar 18 23:39
MinceRi still have some ideas on how to change it. :)Mar 18 23:39
MinceRgnMar 18 23:40
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Mar 18 23:42

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