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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 26th, 2009 - Part 2


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seller_liarschestowitz: we need to focus on ethics , not powerful softwareApr 26 18:36
schestowitz""Price is definitely on people's minds, and if people can get free Office with basic functionality that does 80 percent of what they need, they're going to go in this direction," Crawford said." 26 18:36
seller_liarschestowitz: because all foss software is equivalent or more powerful than proprietary softwareApr 26 18:36
seller_liarschestowitz: There 's no need to focus more and more in featuresApr 26 18:37
seller_liarschestowitz: Now, we only need to focus in promoting ethics in free softwareApr 26 18:37
schestowitznicks: they'll deliver too earlyApr 26 18:37
schestowitzBut....Apr 26 18:37
schestowitzIt'll have XP SP3 in itApr 26 18:37
schestowitzVMApr 26 18:37
schestowitzso they'll say, "look, it's not buggy"Apr 26 18:37
schestowitz"It took us 8 years to make XP... wrapped up in a 7"Apr 26 18:38
seller_liarschestowitz: oh god , Go-oo in GSoC!!!!Apr 26 18:38
trmanco"Conventional wisdom says Linux is incredibly stable. Always skeptical, we decided to put that claim to the test over a 10-month period. In our test, we ran Caldera Systems OpenLinux, Red Hat Linux, and Windows NT Server 4.0 with Service Pack 3 on duplicate 100MHz Pentium systems with 64MB of memory. Ever since we first booted up our test systems in January, network requests have been sent to each server in parallel for standard InterApr 26 18:39
trmanconet, file and print services. The results were quite revealing. Our NT server crashed an average of once every six weeks. Each failure took roughly 30 minutes to fix. That's not so bad, until you consider that neither Linux server ever went down. "Apr 26 18:39
nicksLinux should have Most valuable professionals programApr 26 18:39
schestowitzFirefox is misbahaving for meApr 26 18:40
schestowitzI wish I knew what was causing thisApr 26 18:40
trmancoschestowitz, perhaps a plugin?Apr 26 18:40
trmanco"There are good reasons why one would want large FAT32 partitions (for example, it might be necessary to share data on such partitions with other operating systems) but Microsoft forces you to use their own, proprietary NTFS instead. This creates an artificial barrier for non-Microsoft products for no good reason whatsoever and overrules the customers' needs."Apr 26 18:42
schestowitztrmanco: yesApr 26 18:44
trmanco 26 18:44
trmancomore hereApr 26 18:44
trmancoSummary: Microsoft and standard <- made this upApr 26 18:44
trmancostandards*Apr 26 18:44
trmanco"Microsoft's contempt for HTML and related global standards is nicely illustrated by the way Internet Explorer 5.5 and 6 alter HTML code before presenting it to the user. For example, a web page header might contain a directive that an ISO (i.e. platform-independent) character set be used, with the following command:Apr 26 18:45
trmanco    <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html charset=ISO-8859-1">Apr 26 18:45
trmancoBut after downloading and saving the web page source code with Internet Explorer 5.5 or later, this line looks quite different:Apr 26 18:45
trmanco    <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"> "Apr 26 18:45
nicksinterestingApr 26 18:46
schestowitz└─(18:44 $)─> firefoxApr 26 18:48
schestowitzbash: /usr/bin/firefox: No such file or directoryApr 26 18:48
schestowitzI'm going to install this forefix thngieApr 26 18:49
schestowitzIt's probably the profile though.Apr 26 18:49
schestowitzStill sthe same problem after reinstallingApr 26 18:51
schestowitzSo my profile is poisoned somewhereApr 26 18:51
schestowitzWho knows where.Apr 26 18:51
schestowitzI've carries the same .mozilla since 2004Apr 26 18:52
schestowitz*carriedApr 26 18:52
NeonflowhehApr 26 18:57
schestowitzIt's not too badApr 26 18:57
Neonflownot badApr 26 18:58
Neonflowat allApr 26 18:58
NeonflowI just usually break things after a whileApr 26 18:58
schestowitzThe argument for free fonts < >. Microsoft still abuses a fonts monopoly and Apple ain't helpingApr 26 18:59
schestowitz"I Drank The Ubuntu Kool-Aid And It Didn’t Taste Good"Apr 26 18:59
schestowitz" So after modifying the system to increase the snappiness and failing to be happy with the results, I reinstalled Arch Linux this morning. " 26 18:59
nicksits interesting that they need to put their fingers in everythingApr 26 19:00
schestowitzIt's dirty Uncle FesterApr 26 19:01
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schestowitzAbuse is the key to profit in unregulated economies (or deregulated, assuming you can lull them with cronies like Barnett)Apr 26 19:01
schestowitzWell, Microsoft gives even crime a bad nameApr 26 19:03
schestowitz:-) Limited Edition Jaunty Jackalope T-shirts < >Apr 26 19:03
Neonflowoverall jaunty seems faster than intrepid for me, except the graphics are slower (because there are more and fancier I guess) so I had to turn them off. then again I have a 6 yo computer iwth integrated graphics :pApr 26 19:05
nicksoh well noone can be perfect.Apr 26 19:10
schestowitzDamn. This site is still mirroring us... even IRC. 26 19:11
schestowitzJaunty review are still very good... latest examples: 26 19:12
schestowitzGNU/Linux performs better in 64-bit than in 32-bit. Possible proof: 26 19:17
schestowitzUsing open source software [..]. "However, many Linux desktops [open source] provide a free Live CD-ROM, which allows you to run the complete Linux desktop [directly from the disc], without installing any software on your computer at all," he says. "Try OpenSUSE ( 26 19:20
schestowitz Why OpenSUSE??Apr 26 19:20
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schestowitzThe guy who writes about Microsoft and was given a Vista7 laptop in a Microsoft even spits on Ubuntu 9.04: 26 19:22
schestowitz /even/event/Apr 26 19:22
schestowitz "“DSL” means “doesn’t support Linux” if you’re AT&T”"Apr 26 19:24
schestowitzAnother blow from the AT&T bastards :-)Apr 26 19:25
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schestowitzread this: 26 19:27
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schestowitzI am very worried about Oracle: 26 19:32
nicksi wonder would twitter be good place to start oss communityApr 26 19:34
schestowitzHere's a thoughApr 26 19:35
schestowitzcould they rebuiild mysql AB?Apr 26 19:35
schestowitzLike bring Monty and David Axmark into it?Apr 26 19:35
schestowitzThey sold the trademark to SunApr 26 19:36
schestowitzBut the code is GPLv2 (almost all of it)Apr 26 19:36
schestowitzThey can regroup as an independent company and steal the engineers from OralceApr 26 19:36
schestowitzThey have cipitaApr 26 19:36
schestowitzBut Oracle won't allow this to happen,. I bet.Apr 26 19:36
schestowitznicks: what type of oss community?Apr 26 19:37
schestowitzTough time with Kubuntu: Five Minutes of Kubuntu 9.04 < > Is it possible that only Canonical implements it poorly?Apr 26 19:39
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nickswell the one which will share it's thoughts with othersApr 26 19:42
nicksand as well maybe the free software companyApr 26 19:43
nicksThe people need is what matters.Apr 26 19:45
schestowitzThere's identi.caApr 26 19:45
schestowitzI talk to some people there.Apr 26 19:46
schestowitzIt's filled with FOSS peopleApr 26 19:46
nicksit would be good to create more communities like this one which you linked me toApr 26 19:48
schestowitzhehe. Ubuntu is for spinners < >Apr 26 19:50
schestowitz"gentoo is for ricers"Apr 26 19:50
nickssoon my ubuntu 9.04 cd will come :PApr 26 19:52
schestowitzScrew Intel.. 26 19:53
schestowitznicks: they have nice artworkApr 26 19:54
schestowitzLike a man with hands aside and also a badger or somethingApr 26 19:54
schestowitzVisual art/illusionApr 26 19:54
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schestowitzWhat is Britney and RMS mated: 26 20:04
schestowitzMy brother installed Red hat just nowApr 26 20:06
trmancoOT: 26 20:15
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schestowitz"Opinion: Microsoft still harming netbook markets. A memo that Microsoft reportedly issued to its Top 20 OEMs told them what they could and could not have in a Windows netbook computer. Is the company imposing restrictive limitations on what hardware can run what operating system?"Apr 26 20:25
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nicksschestowitzApr 26 20:39
schestowitzYoApr 26 20:39
nicksare you interested to start oss community dedicated to its users?Apr 26 20:39
schestowitzThis one if fuddy: (question mark indicates trolling)Apr 26 20:39
schestowitznicks: does that not exist already?Apr 26 20:39
nicksnah at least its not updated or its emptyApr 26 20:40
schestowitzHaha: 26 20:41
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DavidGerardgood eveningApr 26 21:00
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schestowitzHeyApr 26 21:04
schestowitzWhat's up, David?Apr 26 21:05
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MinceRhayApr 26 21:12
schestowitzVista7: we do Vista, we do XP too... at half the speed. *snigger*Apr 26 21:14
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amarsh04most frequent questions on HP support forums are to do with obtaining drivers to downgrade from vista to xpApr 26 21:27
schestowitzHehe. People know what they want. How about Linux?Apr 26 21:29
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schestowitztrmanco: be sure to blog about gnote. It's an important milestone to cleaning GNOME also because it raises awareness. Any momentum it can receive will help a lot.Apr 26 21:38
schestowitzI hope Homer comes back to IRC soonApr 26 21:39
trmancoyeah, I willApr 26 21:39
schestowitzIt's like network effectApr 26 21:39
trmancothe next version that comes out, I will spread some loveApr 26 21:39
schestowitzYour readers in turn will start mentionning itApr 26 21:39
schestowitzYou just need to seed the notionApr 26 21:39
trmancoI forgot to that that when 0.2.0 came out :|Apr 26 21:39
schestowitzI subscribed to his rssApr 26 21:39
schestowitzhubApr 26 21:39
trmancoI posted it to cola and everything but forgot to post on my own blog :|Apr 26 21:40
schestowitzThe trolls are pro-MonoApr 26 21:40
schestowitzGoodApr 26 21:40
schestowitzIt means Microsoft likes itApr 26 21:40
schestowitzIt also confirms that it's bad for LinuxApr 26 21:40
trmancoheheApr 26 21:42
amarsh04on HP forums, linux usually get mentioned as something that just works (-:Apr 26 21:44
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DavidGerardi have discovered that bacon is the viral killer!Apr 26 21:46
DavidGerardand got to use the bacon bra photo on an articleApr 26 21:46
DavidGerardbeen saving it up for oneApr 26 21:46
DavidGerardbrb, laptop being commandeered!Apr 26 21:46
schestowitzI thought you mean JonoApr 26 21:47
schestowitzWhen I hear about Bacon...Apr 26 21:47
schestowitzamarsh04: and helpdesks wonder why no-one asks about LinuxApr 26 21:47
schestowitzI heard stories about "Linux users knowing how to take care of their own computers"Apr 26 21:47
schestowitzTranslation: they don't need to run to other people for fixing (Linux).Apr 26 21:48
trmancoDon really kicked a trolls arse todayApr 26 21:48
jose_Xschestowitz, I'm thinking of starting a series of postings on the flaws with the sw patent system. I have related ideas as well. Wanted to have them posted on BN. I think more people would participate in writing to reps if they had access to a good discussion. Also, "the other side" (spooky music heard in background) has some arguments. These all need to be addressed.Apr 26 21:49
twitterHi David.Apr 26 21:52
twitterDid you really say it was a "pleasure" to run W2K at work, or was that some troll impersonating you?Apr 26 21:52
twitterThey had an insulting little avatar, sort of a give away.Apr 26 21:53
schestowitzjose_X: sounds greatApr 26 21:55
jose_Xthanx, i'll email you the posts as they come out.Apr 26 21:55
schestowitzYou said you'd go more parts of Mono TrapApr 26 21:55
schestowitzBut it doesn't matter if there's no sequenceApr 26 21:55
jose_Xcan't say right now if this will be a regular occurrence or how frequentlyApr 26 21:55
schestowitzYou write very well. I'd publish what you send meApr 26 21:55
schestowitzjose_X: you can also send us copies of comments in LTApr 26 21:56
jose_Xomg, that other post I wrote took a long time.. and only after i had chewed the ideas over and over and over.Apr 26 21:56
schestowitzI sometimes quote just portions (fair use)Apr 26 21:56
jose_Xi won't be putting that much effort.. in generalApr 26 21:56
schestowitzjose_X: yes, it's no journalApr 26 21:56
schestowitzYou don't need to brush it up like it's Elsevier ot somethingApr 26 21:56
jose_Xask me if you want to post more. why would i want to stop that?Apr 26 21:57
schestowitzjose_X: needs permission from youApr 26 21:57
schestowitzAlso, sometimes the context/background is missing from a commentApr 26 21:57
jose_Xwhat i meant was that if you asked, why would i say no.. in generalApr 26 21:57
jose_Xi don't put a CC license at the bottom of everything (anything) i write, but if you really wanted to post more, ask meApr 26 21:58
twitterhypertext is a beautiful thing.  it adds contextApr 26 21:58
jose_Xanyway, i'll consider myself a hobbyist column writer for BN :-)Apr 26 21:58
twittergood stuff, jose!Apr 26 21:58
jose_Xok.. and in addition i would like to write to reps and post these somewhere.. keep a long list of submitted letters with intent to make it easier for others to do sameApr 26 21:59
jose_Xi would love MANY people writing original letters to their reps weeklyApr 26 22:00
jose_Xif we can make that contagious, the numbers would eventually balloon.Apr 26 22:00
jose_Xwe have to reach into the ears of these people "representing" usApr 26 22:00
jose_Xand we need to figure out and address every single arg being used by the high priced advisers that have the special accessApr 26 22:01
schestowitzI just cited youApr 26 22:02
schestowitz 26 22:02
jose_Xa multitude of letters can get out of hand.. we can try to tag it well to facilitate lookups, but also a wiki on "why software patents stink" would eventually be greatApr 26 22:03
schestowitzIn this discussion about Mono the Silver Lie compat issue came upApr 26 22:03
schestowitztwitter: AyeApr 26 22:03
schestowitzI hate booksApr 26 22:03
schestowitzFind number, page to endApr 26 22:03
schestowitzFind referneceApr 26 22:03
schestowitzTo to library...Apr 26 22:03
schestowitzOrder  books/search...Apr 26 22:03
schestowitzGood luck with all that.,Apr 26 22:03
schestowitzInternet -> Google/click link. Maaagic.Apr 26 22:04
schestowitzjose_X: sounds great if you can pass some of your writings (even from LT) for us to publish. You cover the same topicsApr 26 22:04
schestowitzSince you typically comment on Microsoft's attempt to force its way into FOSSApr 26 22:05
schestowitzjose_X: we cover sw patents too. Very few sites do, so it's uniqueApr 26 22:05
schestowitzDM does that ( zoobab01 ) and Groklaw to an extent. The rest ignore it, but it's getting hard with TomTom and all.Apr 26 22:06
jose_XI've seen good discussions in places. I'd like for the "best practices" eventually to be gathered in one place. It would encourage more to challenge patents once attacked. It would make it easier for many to write to their gov reps. etcApr 26 22:11
schestowitzPooling papers?Apr 26 22:12
schestowitzOne could write a letter and brush it up in a WikiApr 26 22:12
schestowitzSee how quickly the Mono page came about and edited by all of us: 26 22:13
jose_Xwith many ideas and analogies from which to draw, you have a much better chance of getting original letters where the particular constituents voice can better shine throughApr 26 22:13
schestowitzMicrosoft has fakers writing letterApr 26 22:17
jose_Xjust modified the mono page with link to qtcreator as a good alternate ideApr 26 22:17
schestowitzMicrosoft BUYS letters to CongressApr 26 22:17
jose_Xwe counter the fakers..Apr 26 22:17
schestowitzExpose themApr 26 22:18
schestowitzDon't counterApr 26 22:18
jose_Xby (a) getting many people and (b) having better argumentsApr 26 22:18
schestowitzSee the news about MS PR cutsApr 26 22:18
jose_Xwe have the better argsApr 26 22:18
schestowitzThey have some "citizenship" lobbyApr 26 22:18
jose_Xwe just need the numbersApr 26 22:18
schestowitzjose_X: it's not about argumentsApr 26 22:18
schestowitzDimplomats gets bribesApr 26 22:18
jose_Xyes, it's about convincingApr 26 22:18
schestowitz*Diplomats get bribedApr 26 22:18
jose_Xok, sure, that is why we need the numbersApr 26 22:18
jose_Xhowever, there are reasonable peopleApr 26 22:18
jose_Xwhen you put up money.. your args sound better than normal.. but we can put up votes as sub for $$Apr 26 22:19
jose_Xin any case, public awareness is what we are after.. the rest will take care of itselfApr 26 22:20
jose_Xcreate a distro that is useful (eg, has links to current events, tutorials, comics, etc) and which focuses on helping the user understand issuesApr 26 22:21
twitterlol, money does work magic on logicApr 26 22:21
jose_Xeg, all of these apps that have little pop up lessons "did you know" or reminders can be done but with topics that users care about.. we need to humanize these issues and create a community of interest behind themApr 26 22:22
jose_Xdid you know that sw patents hurts you whenever...blah blah.Apr 26 22:23
jose_X"sw patents would have prevented you from doing that!"Apr 26 22:23
jose_Xsw patents humorous comic stripApr 26 22:23
jose_Xditto for linux, btw..Apr 26 22:23
jose_Xwe need authors that can write what wide audiences find entertainingApr 26 22:24
jose_Xwe can write a gui front end/ app called Patentizer or Zap the Pat or whatever that does something humorous while educatingApr 26 22:24
jose_Xa distro could have a mode (like when you install a different desktop), eg, a modified kde, that is like a sw patents (or pick other social conscience topic) command centerApr 26 22:25
schestowitzjose_X: money does distortApr 26 22:26
schestowitzSee one of the Lessig talks on corrruptionApr 26 22:26
schestowitzAlso the Hillary Clinton exampleApr 26 22:26
jose_Xagreed.. which is why i want to be smart about this and seek numbersApr 26 22:26
schestowitzjose_X: see 26 22:27
schestowitzit's newApr 26 22:27
schestowitzVERY funnyApr 26 22:27
jose_Xlook , there are groups that do fundraising well and try to represent the citizenApr 26 22:27
jose_Xwe have to pitch our angles to these more reasonable people.. and give them goodies and good analogies and show the threats etcApr 26 22:27
jose_Xgood link, schestowitz :DApr 26 22:28
jose_Xthat is just the sort of thing that needs to happen moreApr 26 22:29
schestowitzYes, I knowApr 26 22:29
schestowitzGets attentionApr 26 22:29
jose_Xa distro (here I go again) can feature all of these things and make it easy for the user to participateApr 26 22:29
DavidGerardtwitter: i didn't say it was a pleasure to run win2k at work ... just one compared to 98 or NTApr 26 22:29
DavidGerardin the office, win2k is basically "windows that more or less works properly"Apr 26 22:30
DavidGerardi.e. its failure rate was way better than win95Apr 26 22:30
DavidGerardnot up to a real operating system, but better than dos with picturesApr 26 22:30
DavidGerardheh. i used to use a kubuntu laptop i took to work with me.Apr 26 22:31
DavidGerardmoving between  kde 3.5 and  win2k, i'd get confused occasionally which one i was using for a moment ;-)Apr 26 22:32
jose_Xspeaking of quality.. linux can get a lot of mileage by focusing on social conscience and special benefits to the user (part owner and control privacy etc)Apr 26 22:32
DavidGerardthey're similar in interface and firefox is identical.Apr 26 22:32
schestowitzjose_X:agreedApr 26 22:32
DavidGerardwhen converting windows users, give 'em kde3. they'll be right at home.Apr 26 22:32
DavidGerardkde4, even at 4.2, seems to just confuse the heck out of them IME.Apr 26 22:32
jose_Xthe quality naturally improves as you gain more hands on board.. new users should know that. it helps with the network effect. "come help out"Apr 26 22:32
DavidGerardjose_X: this is why one killer feature of open source: localisation into every language ever.Apr 26 22:33
DavidGerardbecause the people who care can actually do it, rather than going begging to the vendor.Apr 26 22:33
jose_Xlocalization is a good example of something many can contribute to and see immediate powerful benefitsApr 26 22:33
DavidGerardpreciselyApr 26 22:34
jose_Xwith re-mixes, you can customize even further.. to create a distro for the "local club"Apr 26 22:34
DavidGerard does this for MediaWiki - getting your interface sufficiently localised is one of the requirements before getting a wikipedia in that languageApr 26 22:34
DavidGerardsometimes this requires inventing computer jargon for a language. this is considered a bad thing.Apr 26 22:35
DavidGerard(rather than just using transliterated english)Apr 26 22:35
DavidGerard(although the invention is probably better)Apr 26 22:35
jose_Xusers pick kde3 or 4 or whatever.. it's so easy to just have what you want.. upgrade at own pace.. but know that x or y exists should you want a change of paceApr 26 22:37
twittergood insight, David, thanksApr 26 22:37
jose_Xfor $0Apr 26 22:37
twitterI agree with you about KDE.Apr 26 22:37
twitterThe success of Ubunu amazes me because it uses Gnome by default.Apr 26 22:37
jose_Xwe don't make $$$ only when users go to the latest and greatest. in fact, many would love to service the older stuff better.Apr 26 22:38
jose_X ie, for $$Apr 26 22:38
twitterGnome works but it's not as Windoze friendly as KDE 3.5 isApr 26 22:38
jose_Xie, the proprietary model is bad for usersApr 26 22:38
twitterbad for vendors, bad for everyone.Apr 26 22:38
jose_Xmeanwhile service providers can survive with old stuff just fine .. especially when they can add on to it for life (access to source and licenses)Apr 26 22:38
jose_Xand $0 cost to themApr 26 22:39
jose_Xie, microsoft's model is a dead end AND their ecosystem may not have realized it but they really have Linux in their bloodApr 26 22:40
twittereveryone benefits with inefficiency is removed from a market, Windows is a giant cost to everoneApr 26 22:40
DavidGerardtwitter: i don't think you quite realise just how low microsoft has set expectationsApr 26 22:40
DavidGerardwindows 2000 was a paragon of stability as far as its main users (office workers) were concernedApr 26 22:40
DavidGerardthe problems with it you described actually sound like dodgy hardwareApr 26 22:41
twitterNo.Apr 26 22:41
twitterI had these problems at more than one place.Apr 26 22:41
DavidGerardok :-)Apr 26 22:41
twitterOne of them was a fortune 100 company.Apr 26 22:41
DavidGerardi mean, it was crasharamaApr 26 22:42
DavidGerardas was nt4Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerardbut both were way better than 95 or 98Apr 26 22:42
twitterThey had money for the best hardware and service M$ could provide.Apr 26 22:42
DavidGerardand at this late stage, i typically run xp at work for a week before switching off on fridayApr 26 22:42
jose_Xopacity contributes to problemsApr 26 22:42
DavidGerardi just spent a week on call for workApr 26 22:42
DavidGerardon this laptopApr 26 22:42
DavidGerardbooted into xpApr 26 22:42
DavidGerardthe fan was screaming flat-out continuouslyApr 26 22:42
DavidGerardthen boot into kubuntu 9.04 with kernel 2.6.28Apr 26 22:43
jose_Xmany users with greater demands run into dead ends on Windows.. certainly for what they can affordApr 26 22:43
twitterprobably from all the spam the poor thing was sending.Apr 26 22:43
DavidGerardand power consumption drops to 11.3 watts on battery (per powertop)Apr 26 22:43
twitterawesomeApr 26 22:43
DavidGerardno, from the antivirus (symantec i think) taking up an entire cpuApr 26 22:43
twitterwhateverApr 26 22:44
DavidGerardso from all the spam the poor thing was avoidingApr 26 22:44
DavidGerardantivirus software is the stupidest thing everApr 26 22:44
twitterhave you checked it?Apr 26 22:44
DavidGerardyeahApr 26 22:44
DavidGerardi used to work at an antivirus vendorApr 26 22:44
twitterthe only way to know is to watch it with another box that's not running WinblowsApr 26 22:44
DavidGerardi knew it was time to quit when i had an actual nightmare about the internal structure of windows ntApr 26 22:44
DavidGerardtrue.Apr 26 22:45
twittergahhhApr 26 22:45
*DavidGerard goes to install clamav and run it over the windows partitionApr 26 22:45
twittera better check is just to watch the network traffic for a few days of sitting.Apr 26 22:45
DavidGerardthe structure of NT is: a layer of crap on a layer of crap on a layer of crap on a core that was designed well by computer science geniusesApr 26 22:45
DavidGerardtwitter: that's not a useful measure when you're on a vpnApr 26 22:46
DavidGerardthere's a microsoft white paper that everyone should readApr 26 22:46
jose_Xi presume what they mean by signatures is that you specifically look for code that you already know is harmful and then try to cut it offApr 26 22:46
DavidGerard"Windows NT From A Unix Point Of View"Apr 26 22:46
jose_Xvs actually fixing the software or security model etcApr 26 22:46
twitterHook it to a hub, If it's spamming the world, you will see it.Apr 26 22:46
DavidGerardit explains the internals of nt really wellApr 26 22:46
DavidGerardit was written between 3.51 and 4Apr 26 22:46
jose_Xi get the impression microsoft's obscurity model is about moving weaknesses aroundApr 26 22:46
DavidGerardit really has lots of great ideas in itApr 26 22:47
DavidGerardand of course it's the implementation.Apr 26 22:47
jose_Xhaving the weaknesses in the systems to some degree is something they like as they can exploit itApr 26 22:47
DavidGerardideas are cheap.Apr 26 22:47
twitterhe heApr 26 22:47
DavidGerard(this is another problem with software patents.)Apr 26 22:47
jose_X>> it explains the internals of nt really wellApr 26 22:47
DavidGerardmicrosoft has taken this paper off the internet, so presumably they don't want people knowing this stuff.Apr 26 22:47
twitterpatents are supposed to be for inventions, not ideasApr 26 22:48
jose_Xsource code would do better.. too bad they don't provide what they actually ship instead of the pretty diagrams they like to sellApr 26 22:48
DavidGerardif you must do this sort of thing, copyrights are the right model, not patentsApr 26 22:48
twitterPeople who care already know, I'm sure.Apr 26 22:48
DavidGerardi'd love a copy of that paper againApr 26 22:48
twitterIf there were any good ideas, someone in the GNU/Linux world has them.Apr 26 22:48
DavidGerardlinux demonstrates quite well: it's not the ideas, it's the executionApr 26 22:49
schestowitzDavidGerard: I might have thatApr 26 22:49
schestowitzI also have some Comes slides from MSApr 26 22:49
schestowitzAbout Windows not being developed for securityApr 26 22:49
DavidGerardthe point of the torvalds/tanenbaum flameware is torvalds was talking engineering, tanenbaum was talking comp sciApr 26 22:49
schestowitzThere's a missing article where MS exec says Windows is not engineered for securityApr 26 22:49
schestowitzIt vbanished months agoApr 26 22:49
schestowitzI contacted the edtiorApr 26 22:49
DavidGerardschestowitz: cool :-) I strongly recommend it as reading for all, including windows fans. it's interesting to see what cutler et al were trying to do.Apr 26 22:50
schestowitzI don't know if they have already resotored itApr 26 22:50
schestowitzBut a friend who is a teacher says it could be sabotageApr 26 22:50
schestowitzcutler?Apr 26 22:50
DavidGerardthere are no new ideas in linux. there dont' have to be.Apr 26 22:50
DavidGerarddave cutler, designer of vms and wntApr 26 22:50
schestowitzCan you get hold of the paper?Apr 26 22:51
schestowitzWeb Archive?Apr 26 22:51
jose_Xcutler (deceased) helped build a system which got ms security marksApr 26 22:51
DavidGerardno, that's what i said!Apr 26 22:51
DavidGerardhmmApr 26 22:51
schestowitzWe can put it it in BNApr 26 22:51
jose_Xthem ms goes and changes things .. which is what they sell customersApr 26 22:51
DavidGerardmight be on if i knew *where*Apr 26 22:51 needs a google appliance ;-)Apr 26 22:51
jose_Xbut their ads are over the model that got the good security marksApr 26 22:51
schestowitzDavidGerard: find links TO itApr 26 22:51
DavidGerardit's done an amazing disappearing actApr 26 22:52
schestowitzWhat's the gist?Apr 26 22:52
jose_Xi was talking about a different person.. just realized itApr 26 22:53
jose_Xalways forget the name but "cutler" sounded like itApr 26 22:53
DavidGerardaha! here's the ancient link 26 22:54
DavidGerardWIN!Apr 26 22:55
DavidGerardhere's the index page of the document 26 22:56
DavidGerardnote it links to a .exe- yes really.Apr 26 22:56
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 26 22:56
DavidGerardit's as described on that linkApr 26 22:58
jose_Xguy's name is Curry: 26 22:58
DavidGerardit's a techical discussion of the internal structure of ntApr 26 22:58
DavidGerardor at least, what it was supposed to beApr 26 22:58
jose_X>> Microsoft has been in pursuit of the C2 rating for NT 4 for more than a year. Originally, Microsoft had hired an independent contractor named Edward Curry to help the company obtain a C2 rating for NT 3.5 in the mid-1980s. But in 1995, Microsoft ended Curry's contract for reasons the company declined to divulge publicly.Apr 26 22:58
jose_X>> Curry brought to the Department of Defence's attention late last year the fact that Microsoft had not obtained C2 certification for any release of NT beyond 3.5. In March of this year, while continuing to make known his concerns regarding Microsoft's alleged lack of operating-system security, Curry died suddenly of a stroke. Prior to Curry's death, Microsoft hired Science Applications International (SAIC) to continue its C2 certApr 26 22:59
jose_Xification efforts. A year ago, SAIC was predicting Microsoft would pass its first C2 milestone within weeks.Apr 26 22:59
DavidGerardthe paper was a reference in the SAMS book "Windows NT Internet and Intranet Development"Apr 26 22:59
jose_X 26 23:00
schestowitz"Not in Archive." 26 23:01
jose_X>> was the defense industry computer security insider who secured an Orange Book C2 rating for Microsoft Windows NT 3.5 SP3, running in a specific hardware and OS configuration. Note that the rating did not apply to an out-of-the-box deployment, or any other version of Windows NT, although Microsoft made representations that it did, or that the security rating was at the higher Red Book level.Apr 26 23:01
DavidGerardGOT IT.Apr 26 23:02
DavidGerard - that's the self-extracting archiveApr 26 23:04
DavidGerardi've just opened it in wineApr 26 23:04
DavidGerardlet's see if that's the paper i rememberApr 26 23:04
DavidGerarda pile of old ms papers in 26 23:05
DavidGerardif it's in the comes documents, you could put it upApr 26 23:05
DavidGerardyes, this is the documentApr 26 23:10
DavidGerardyou read all this description of a very nice sounding design, and it turns out the catch is that all practical applications live in win32.Apr 26 23:10
DavidGerardwhich has the shoddy unreliability of userland combined with the same consequences of failure (from the user perspective) as the kernel.Apr 26 23:11
DavidGerardbecause it's where you and your apps and your data are. not in all these lower layers.Apr 26 23:11
DavidGerardi'm now reading it trying to work out why microsoft wanted it disappeared.Apr 26 23:11
DavidGerard(this is the same problem X11 has, as jim gettys identified in his 2000? 2003? paper. it's a userland app, but for the user it needs kernel level reliability, because any user who you say "linux didn't crash, x did" will think you're just being obnoxious.)Apr 26 23:14
DavidGerard(their data is gone and that's the bit they care about.)Apr 26 23:15
MinceRwindows has some processes marked 'crash the system if this process exits' :)Apr 26 23:15
MinceRas for x crashes -- they just won't happen on a server ;)Apr 26 23:16
DavidGerardoh yeahApr 26 23:16
DavidGerardwindows on a server is just ... what.Apr 26 23:17
*_Hicham_ ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 26 23:18
_Hicham_Hi schestowitz!Apr 26 23:19
schestowitzHeyApr 26 23:20
schestowitzDavidGerard: hold on to the copyApr 26 23:21
DavidGerardwell, i've found one sentence that makes me boggleApr 26 23:21
schestowitzIs it copyrighted explicitly?Apr 26 23:21
DavidGerard"If the software is interoperable, it does not need to be compliant"Apr 26 23:21
schestowitzHuh?Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerardthe paragraph that's from doesnt' really make senseApr 26 23:22
schestowitzOh I see..Apr 26 23:22
schestowitzDepends on contextApr 26 23:22
_Hicham_DavidGerard : what software is that?Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerardThe Microsoft RPC is compatible with the OSF€® DCE€® RPC. Being compatible isApr 26 23:22
DavidGerardnot the same as being compliant. Compliance, in this case, means startingApr 26 23:22
DavidGerardwith the OSF source code and building upon it. The key element here is notApr 26 23:22
DavidGerardcompliance; it is interoperability. If the software is interoperable, itApr 26 23:22
DavidGerarddoes not need to be compliant, and the Microsoft RPC facility is completelyApr 26 23:22
DavidGerardinteroperable with other DCE-based RPC systems, such as those from Hewlett-Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerardPackard and IBM.Apr 26 23:22
DavidGerardwindows nt.Apr 26 23:22
schestowitzI.e. if someone ports to OUR 'standards', then it's OKApr 26 23:22
schestowitzIngore POSIXApr 26 23:22
schestowitzJust do it your way (they say so)Apr 26 23:22
schestowitzlet others like Samba pray they can mimicApr 26 23:22
schestowitzAnd then fear lawsuitsApr 26 23:22
DavidGerardit seems to mean "the code is the definition of the protocol, if it works well enough in practice that'll do, specs are for wimpy girlymen"Apr 26 23:22
schestowitzYesApr 26 23:23
DavidGerardi think when ms claims this they really mean itApr 26 23:23
schestowitzThat's the bad, bad MicrosoftApr 26 23:23
DavidGerardthere is no secret document at microsoft properly defining SMBApr 26 23:23
schestowitzThere's a bunch of good quoies about using non-standard protocolsApr 26 23:23
schestowitzTo screw Oracle, Sun, etc.Apr 26 23:23
DavidGerardquite literally, no-one left there understands it. the samba guys understand it better than anyone at microsoft does.Apr 26 23:23
DavidGerardsame for the word .doc format in all its iterations, etc.Apr 26 23:24
twitterthat might be trueApr 26 23:24
DavidGerardi think it is true.Apr 26 23:24
twitterthey made it malicious and forgot how to fix it.Apr 26 23:24
twitterha haApr 26 23:24
DavidGerardyep.Apr 26 23:24
DavidGerardremember that recent story? how the permatemp apocalypse meant they fired literally everyone who knew how to build windows 2000Apr 26 23:24
DavidGerardand wiped their machines when they were kicked outApr 26 23:25
DavidGerardmeaning that XP was actually built starting with NT4 and backporting as much of windows 2000 as they could get to compileApr 26 23:25
DavidGerardthis explains the feel of it - an odd mix of slick and clunkyApr 26 23:25
DavidGerardat twice the size and half the speed, of courseApr 26 23:25
twitterThat makes Windows hopeless, as Vista proved.  It would have sucked before they DRM'd it to death.Apr 26 23:25
DavidGerardwindows 2000 was the best they knew how to do, and they forgot how to.Apr 26 23:26
twitterOh well.Apr 26 23:26
twitterIf they GPL it, someone might fix it.Apr 26 23:26
twitterIf they don't, no one should care.Apr 26 23:26
DavidGerard"Let’s be absolutely clear about this: the goal is distributed computing."Apr 26 23:29
DavidGerardand they're promising clustering in windows 8.Apr 26 23:29
DavidGerardman. they should just have paid DEC the money for VMS straight up.Apr 26 23:29
MinceRgnApr 26 23:30
twittershould have, could have, did not.Apr 26 23:30
twittersaid nasty things about DEC instead.Apr 26 23:30
twitteridiotsApr 26 23:30
DavidGerardjust imagine how 0wned computing would be if microsoft were technically competentApr 26 23:30
schestowitzDavidGerard: hehe. Funny quote about distributed computingApr 26 23:30
schestowitzCDNs are all LinuxApr 26 23:30
schestowitzAnd Microsoft memos shows them going frantic about itApr 26 23:30
twitterIf they were technically competent, they would not be M$.Apr 26 23:31
schestowitzYesApr 26 23:31
schestowitzWith bad engineering you need to kick below the crotchApr 26 23:31
schestowitzOracle sells well without crimeApr 26 23:31
twitterHere's one for Bill Gates.  GNU/Linux power management works great!Apr 26 23:31
schestowitzBecause they don't need to force people to buy Oracle with EVERY server soldApr 26 23:32
DavidGerardmatthew garrett wouldn't agree ;-)Apr 26 23:32
twitterI just got Lenny to resume from hard  drive, using ACPIApr 26 23:32
DavidGerarda lot of windows' insecurity comes from using distributed computing protocols inside the systemApr 26 23:32
DavidGerardany process can send any other process a chunk of code and tell it to run it. WHAT.Apr 26 23:33
DavidGerardAND WHYApr 26 23:33
DavidGerardGOOD LORDApr 26 23:33
twitterrelevant quote found here: 26 23:33
*ushimitsudoki1 ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 26 23:33
DavidGerardlinux's acpi is painstakingly reverse-engineered and special-casedApr 26 23:33
DavidGerardnot even as nice as samba, more like on the level of horror of wineApr 26 23:34
DavidGerard(wine is not horror. what wine has to do is horror.)Apr 26 23:34
_Hicham_DavidGerad : but it is better than Windows' oneApr 26 23:34
_Hicham_acpi on Linux rocksApr 26 23:34
DavidGerarduh ... it rocks if your hardware is supported.Apr 26 23:34
_Hicham_u have all the tools to control ur computerApr 26 23:34
DavidGerardif not it's a nightmare.Apr 26 23:34
twitter" the result is that Linux works great without having to do the work" - Bill Gates.  I'm aware of how horrible it is and how much work it took to make it work and exactly why.Apr 26 23:34
twitterI'm happy to tell him that it works well, despite his best efforts otherwise.Apr 26 23:35
DavidGerardmuch like linux and hardware in general. if your hw's supported you get mac like levels of Just Works - if not, you have a world of pain ahead of you.Apr 26 23:35
twitterI'm also happy to laugh in the face of OEMs who can't get their hardware to work the M$ way.Apr 26 23:35
DavidGerardi'm glad linux's won on the server.Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerardi say that because no manufacturer is stupid enough to release server hardware that doesn't run well on linux immediately.Apr 26 23:36
twitterthe desktop is not far off.Apr 26 23:36
DavidGerardyesApr 26 23:36
DavidGerardi read that dell was already asking its suppliers to use linux-supported hardwareApr 26 23:36
DavidGerardasking so far, not demandingApr 26 23:36
DavidGerardthat's what it'll takeApr 26 23:36
DavidGerard2008 was the year of the linux desktop, in the form of the netbook.Apr 26 23:37
twitterWhen a giant like Dell asks, it's a big demand.Apr 26 23:37
_Hicham_DavidGerard : u have to check before buying hardwareApr 26 23:37
DavidGerardms's financials show the totally unintentional side effect has happened.Apr 26 23:37
DavidGerard_Hicham_: well yeah.Apr 26 23:37
twitterit's not like it used to beApr 26 23:37
twitterRetailers that stuck with M$ have gone out of business, CompUSA, Circuit City, and others teeter on bankruptcyApr 26 23:38
twitterThey've got piles of stuff that does not work and people won't buyApr 26 23:39
schestowitz 26 23:42
DavidGerardcut'n'paste bomb:Apr 26 23:42
_Hicham_Windows is ObsoleteApr 26 23:42
DavidGerardWindows€ NT is a portable operating system in the true sense of the word. ItApr 26 23:42
DavidGerardruns on many different hardware platforms and supports a multitude ofApr 26 23:42
DavidGerardperipheral devices. Windows€ NT gives you choice.Apr 26 23:42
DavidGerardThis was the dream of Unix, which, even today, is largely unrealized. ThereApr 26 23:42
DavidGerardis no such thing as Unix; there are only Unixes, and each is slightlyApr 26 23:42
DavidGerarddifferent from and generally incompatible with the others. Sometimes thereApr 26 23:42
DavidGerardare even incompatibilities within different versions of Unix from the sameApr 26 23:42
DavidGerardvendor. The application software that you buy to run on their workstationApr 26 23:42
DavidGerardversion of Unix will not run “as-is” on their server version of Unix. IfApr 26 23:43
DavidGerardyou want to run it there, you need to purchase a different copy of the sameApr 26 23:43
DavidGerardapplication. In most cases, the same holds true with Unix itself. When youApr 26 23:43
DavidGerardbuy Unix you are very often locked in to a single-vendor hardware solution,Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerardand that vendor is usually the same one that sold you the copy of Unix.Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerardwhat they promise there is realised with linuxApr 26 23:43
DavidGerardi realised that when i saw the tiny MIPS notebook.Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerard"that's gnu/linux just like I use every day!"Apr 26 23:43
DavidGerardhrm. I still can't see what in this paper is such a slipup they wiped it off the webApr 26 23:44
jose_Xanyone know if windows 2000 had bsd code or instead code that ms had no right to use?Apr 26 23:44
DavidGerardno-one has evidence of suchApr 26 23:45
DavidGerardthat i recallApr 26 23:45
schestowitz:-) 26 23:45
_Hicham_jose_X : go download windows 2000 code from piratebay.orgApr 26 23:46
_Hicham_jose_X : these are the portions leaked by MainSoftApr 26 23:47
jose_Xsmb the spec is immaterial. it's ms's code that matters. that can change version to version or day to day.. complexity is how you thwart interop and provides some amount of "i dunno" protection from legal attacks..Apr 26 23:47
_Hicham_jose_X : there is some Windows 2000 code as well as some Windows NT codeApr 26 23:47
jose_Xms "those dumb" people is much safer for ms than ms those shrewd individualsApr 26 23:47
DavidGerardhmm. i'm now wondering if this *was* the paper I recall. i'm sure that was the title.Apr 26 23:48
jose_Xportions? what are portions? portions can mean anything. patch "portions" enough and you get LinuxApr 26 23:48
DavidGerardjose_X: there's malice *and* stupidity. they're not mutually exclusive.Apr 26 23:48
*schestowitz prepared BN links for todayApr 26 23:49
jose_XDavidGerard, I agree.. at the same time howeverApr 26 23:49
jose_Xthere are variations and it can depend on what part of the code you are looking atApr 26 23:49
jose_Xand which group within ms you are looking atApr 26 23:49
*ushimitsudoki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 26 23:49
jose_Xi'm generalizing.. i have no direct knowledgeApr 26 23:50
*seller_liar (i=c91babce@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 26 23:50
*mib_ksosr5 (i=c352a48c@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 26 23:56
DavidGerardyou have the smartest people they could find, working for the stupid and evilApr 26 23:56
jose_X..working for money. that's the trade off. it's enough for some. it's not enough for others.Apr 26 23:57
jose_Xbut google may have pulled in many of those that were after money or control or better karma or ....Apr 26 23:58
jose_Xcontrol in a different sense..Apr 26 23:58
twitterthere are a lot more smart people outside of M$ than there are inside M$.Apr 26 23:59
jose_Xms certainly gives the impression many times that they can't execute.. but other times i'm not so sure.. in any case, they are about money. they know how to sell can capture (within their contraints)Apr 26 23:59

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