| ZiggyFish | http://www.computerworld.com/action/articl... | Sep 06 00:07 |
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| ZiggyFish | Open source: What you should learn from the French | Sep 06 00:07 |
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| schestowitz | It's interesting that CW is with IDG now. Was it always the case? | Sep 06 00:08 |
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| schestowitz | I've been noticing this recently. | Sep 06 00:08 |
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| schestowitz | IDG is IDC related, IIRC, i.e. Microsoft money on the table. | Sep 06 00:08 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol | Sep 06 00:09 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.boozallen.com/news/38177659 "McLean, VA – June 18, 2007 – Booz Allen Hamilton announced today that IDG’s Computerworld magazine" | Sep 06 00:09 |
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| schestowitz | Hmmmm.... weird. I didn't realise it | Sep 06 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.ntcompatible.com/IDC_Cost_Analysis_Fund... | Sep 06 00:11 |
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| schestowitz | "eWeek's Peter Galli gets the scoop that the recent IDC paper, which claims that the total cost of ownership (TOC) for Windows beats out Linux servers, was actually sponsored by Microsoft itself. " Galli seems to have retired or something this year | Sep 06 00:12 |
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| schestowitz | "Research firm IDC, in a Microsoft-funded study..." http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.html | Sep 06 00:12 |
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| schestowitz | "IDC is a subsidiary of IDG , the world's leading technology media, research, and events company. Additional information can be found at www.idc.com." http://www.idg.com/www/HomeNew.nsf/docs/idc | Sep 06 00:13 |
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| ZiggyFish | Firefox users report problems after updating ( http://www.computerworld.com/actio... ) - another Microsoft Fuck up | Sep 06 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | I should really write something about it. IDG is huge, so the bias is clearer to see. | Sep 06 00:13 |
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| ZiggyFish | yeah | Sep 06 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | This affects ComputerWorld, NetworkWorld, PCWorld, LinuxWorld and many other publications | Sep 06 00:14 |
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| schestowitz | LinuxInsider too was sold to ECT, which now uses it to attack Linux sometimes. | Sep 06 00:14 |
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| ZiggyFish | yeah | Sep 06 00:15 |
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| schestowitz | Anyway, I'll write about it tomorrow cause I'm tired, so I'll just post some links. | Sep 06 00:16 |
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| ZiggyFish | nice | Sep 06 00:20 |
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| ZiggyFish | hey | Sep 06 04:25 |
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| seller_liar | I remember now , dot gnu does not suffer about ms deal because gplv3 | Sep 06 06:06 |
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| warren | Hi folks, just wanted to say, keep up the good work. =) | Sep 06 06:40 |
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| warren | My dislike of Novell really began with this: http://wtogami.livejournal.com/11305.html | Sep 06 06:41 |
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| schestowitz | Hey, Warren. Thanks. | Sep 06 07:02 |
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| schestowitz | It seems like Mr. Microsoft Consultant is threatening to harm this IRC channel unless he's permitted here: http://www.fsdaily.com/Business/Boy... | Sep 06 08:14 |
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| tessier | What a wanker | Sep 06 08:37 |
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| tessier | Just ignore him | Sep 06 08:37 |
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| schestowitz | I di. | Sep 06 08:37 |
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| schestowitz | *do | Sep 06 08:37 |
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| benJIman | Normally bans are removed after a short time, if the person being banned is not a repeat troublemaker. | Sep 06 09:18 |
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| *schestowitz removes ban on *!*@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cj | Sep 06 09:28 |
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| schestowitz | Monty is out! "First, it's a rumour. Technically there is no resignation letter. However, I spoke to Monty yesterday, and yes, resignation is an option he considers," reads a blog post from Kaj Arnö, MySQL vice president for spin community relations." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09... | Sep 06 09:34 |
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| schestowitz | It's probably good news. Monty was a lobbying /against/ software patents and Sun's attitude towards GNU/Linux and patents must not have done good. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05... | Sep 06 09:35 |
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| PetoKraus | man | Sep 06 09:43 |
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| PetoKraus | http://biosyourlife.com/index.php?opt... | Sep 06 09:43 |
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| PetoKraus | this is RUBBISH | Sep 06 09:43 |
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| schestowitz | It's corny, I know. | Sep 06 09:44 |
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| schestowitz | Watch the signature: "MS" | Sep 06 09:44 |
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| PetoKraus | yeah | Sep 06 09:44 |
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| PetoKraus | i mean | Sep 06 09:44 |
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| PetoKraus | it's such a horrible article, that if it was written about windows, we'd call the author "paid for" | Sep 06 09:45 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe MS is [M]ark [S]huttlworth. :-) | Sep 06 09:46 |
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| trmanco | hey cool | Sep 06 10:01 |
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| trmanco | cola has stats | Sep 06 10:01 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: btw "Use the chanserv "op" command to obtain channel operator status only when needed. This will help to keep your channel temperature low and reduce conflicts." [ http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml ] | Sep 06 10:13 |
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| schestowitz | benJIman: if you're gonna heckle, please take it elsewhere. You're not here for good reasons and you know it. There are at last 3 OpenSUSE people in the channel right now and you lecture us on "temperature". | Sep 06 10:17 |
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| benJIman | Just pointing out freenode policy. | Sep 06 10:17 |
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| schestowitz | How convenient. "It's not me, it's him" | Sep 06 10:17 |
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| captain_magnus | schestowitz: "good reasons"? | Sep 06 10:37 |
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| schestowitz | captain_OpenSUSE_magnus: yes, good reasons. You're not trying to help. You're /against/ BN. | Sep 06 10:37 |
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| captain_magnus | schestowitz: Glad we got that out of the way schestowitz_Not_openSUSE. Was just curious what good reasons were | Sep 06 10:40 |
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| schestowitz | But don't worry, I won't provoke or criticise you guys anymore. It's Novell that's the issue. I have a good post about OpenSUSE coming. | Sep 06 10:41 |
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| mib_4t537t | hellooo everybody | Sep 06 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | Hi there, what's up? | Sep 06 10:58 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: I'm going to be doing some system maintenance today - there will be some downtime, sorry. | Sep 06 11:32 |
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| schestowitz | That's cool. | Sep 06 11:36 |
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| trmanco | schestowitz, that key you use on the usenet is really yours right? | Sep 06 11:46 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, if you can validate it. Some people faked that by copying and pasting (and posting under my name). | Sep 06 11:52 |
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| trmanco | the one with the key id: 74572E8E | Sep 06 11:55 |
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| trmanco | I'll validate it and trust it | Sep 06 11:55 |
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| Odd_Bloke | Uhm, you shouldn't really trust a key based on an IRC conversation. | Sep 06 11:57 |
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| schestowitz | http://schestowitz.com/PGP/ | Sep 06 11:58 |
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| trmanco | well | Sep 06 11:58 |
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| trmanco | I can't go visit him personally and confirm if the key is really his :P | Sep 06 11:59 |
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| Odd_Bloke | That's still not enough to trust it. | Sep 06 11:59 |
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| Odd_Bloke | Then don't trust it. | Sep 06 11:59 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: should be up again now..? | Sep 06 13:12 |
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| schestowitz | Works perfectly! I suppose you've patched up that OpenSSL thingie. | Sep 06 13:13 |
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| kentma | I think so... | Sep 06 13:14 |
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| kentma | seem to be on up to date versions, so should be fine. | Sep 06 13:14 |
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| schestowitz | I updated a Ubuntu box some days ago (I burned literally HALF a day struggling with that one) and it got a shrwed mechanism for patching it. | Sep 06 13:15 |
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| schestowitz | Not only does it get a modified package but it also regenerates the keys. | Sep 06 13:15 |
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| kentma | neat! | Sep 06 13:15 |
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| schestowitz | BTW, this problem was due to -- guess what -- a bad hub! | Sep 06 13:15 |
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| schestowitz | Took me ages to find the cause of the issue. Not even rebooting the hub would help and I tried everything! | Sep 06 13:16 |
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| kentma | I've just replaced yet another disk here... | Sep 06 13:16 |
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| schestowitz | Even rebotted the switch. | Sep 06 13:16 |
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| kentma | this is where ip networks are terrible - there's almost no proper maintenance information from them. | Sep 06 13:16 |
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| schestowitz | I'm going to take back my position as a network engineer to pay my bills, ensuring I can carry on advocating FOSS without running out of money. | Sep 06 13:16 |
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| schestowitz | I spoke about this with my dad this morning. I guess it's a good solution. | Sep 06 13:17 |
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| kentma | probablyh a good plan - running out of cash is not a great idea :-) | Sep 06 13:17 |
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| jose | tough compromises. | Sep 06 13:17 |
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| schestowitz | Yup. I've had some savings because I had worked since I was like 14, but that too may run out. | Sep 06 13:17 |
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| jose | if only the cash would last longer | Sep 06 13:17 |
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| kentma | it would be useful it if could be rolled thinner :-) | Sep 06 13:18 |
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| schestowitz | jose: how's the economy over there in Florida? | Sep 06 13:18 |
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| schestowitz | I have many relatives there. | Sep 06 13:18 |
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| jose | it should worsen by the month.. at least for now | Sep 06 13:18 |
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| jose | i'm not employed in IT | Sep 06 13:18 |
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| jose | i cannot handle emplyee relationship for that sort of work | Sep 06 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | jose: good fot you. | Sep 06 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | *for | Sep 06 13:19 |
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| jose | i did always think i had a rather good fot. | Sep 06 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | The last I'be heard, Shane (of BN) quit this industry. It's chaos. | Sep 06 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | Engineers becoming non-techies. | Sep 06 13:19 |
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| jose | There should be more (greater volume) of interesting work as linux is taken up | Sep 06 13:20 |
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| schestowitz | jose: yes, that too. | Sep 06 13:20 |
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| jose | everywhere savings are taking a hit as prices rise and wages.... | Sep 06 13:20 |
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| schestowitz | Thankfully I don't have to mess with Windows in my IT roles. | Sep 06 13:21 |
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| schestowitz | jose: in FL too? | Sep 06 13:21 |
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| jose | schestowitz: i just wrote this. http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.ph... | Sep 06 13:21 |
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| jose | in FL literal wages are stagnant or even dropping deceptively while all prices have gone up | Sep 06 13:22 |
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| jose | naturally *real* wages are dropping | Sep 06 13:22 |
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| schestowitz | My cousins is in construction; that can't be good. After hurricane Andrew he had lots of business (rebuilding), but now it's the opposite. | Sep 06 13:22 |
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| schestowitz | Well, that's a bummer for those with mortgages. | Sep 06 13:22 |
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| jose | yeah, construction has taken a hit along with the entire housing sector | Sep 06 13:23 |
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| schestowitz | I have a friend who's stressed out about it. Some people can lose their house. | Sep 06 13:23 |
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| jose | if you keep your job, you can continue to pay the mortgage though psychologically you will have to fight uphill | Sep 06 13:23 |
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| jose | knowing that so much equity has disappeared and that you now have extra debt | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| schestowitz | For how long? :-) 20 years ? | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| jose | linux will save everything :-) | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| jose | 3.. 4 years | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| jose | linux is coming | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| schestowitz | That guys I'm actually competing against today. Rowing competition. I'm probably going to win the plate this year. :-) | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| jose | what kind of rowing | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| jose | team? | Sep 06 13:24 |
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| schestowitz | jose: companies will collapse along with their tissue paper money | Sep 06 13:25 |
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| schestowitz | The fear is that deficit will be shown for what it is once companies go bankrupt. Look at SCO... from 'hero' to zero in Sept. 2007. | Sep 06 13:25 |
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| jose | yeah but ma and pa will have an unfair share of that tissue paper if it does in fact drop like a rock | Sep 06 13:25 |
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| schestowitz | jose: oars. | Sep 06 13:25 |
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| schestowitz | Ma and pa might live in a tent by that time | Sep 06 13:26 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/results?se... | Sep 06 13:26 |
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| schestowitz | The press doesn't cover 'tent cities'. It shows 'American dream' though, you know, to keep people hopeful and motivates. That's Hollywood brainwash for you. | Sep 06 13:29 |
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| schestowitz | *motivated | Sep 06 13:29 |
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| jose | wallstreet greed | Sep 06 13:29 |
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| jose | there should be laws where people's fundamental needs take precendence over business. This way the business community is forced to find solutions or be more careful | Sep 06 13:30 |
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| jose | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbns4... | Sep 06 13:31 |
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| schestowitz | It's shocking I know. Let me watch this. | Sep 06 13:32 |
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| jose | i'll be back a little later | Sep 06 13:40 |
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| schestowitz | I'll be around. | Sep 06 13:40 |
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| schestowitz | The Microsoft money in IDG/IDC goes a long way back on the face of it: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.html http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/St... | Sep 06 14:41 |
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| jose | schestowitz, did you change the url to this page http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/... ? | Sep 06 14:54 |
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| schestowitz | I haven't, why? | Sep 06 14:58 |
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| schestowitz | Oh f*!!! | Sep 06 14:58 |
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| schestowitz | It's that annoying bug that turns posts "Private" | Sep 06 14:59 |
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| schestowitz | How long has this gone on for, I wonder.. | Sep 06 14:59 |
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| jose | just checked right now. i posted something there yesterday. | Sep 06 15:02 |
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| schestowitz | I fixed it a moment ago. | Sep 06 15:02 |
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| schestowitz | It must have lasted for a few hours, which is shame because Carla selected it for front page of Linux Today. | Sep 06 15:02 |
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| trmanco | schestowitz, what version of what are you using on BN? | Sep 06 15:04 |
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| trmanco | It looks like Wordpress to me but I'm not quite sure | Sep 06 15:05 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: sorry another outage --- hard drive problems :-( | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | 2.0.x | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | It's LTS, kentma, because it's on Debian repos. | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| trmanco | hmm | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| trmanco | a little old :P | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| kentma | LTS? | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | No, it's being patched. | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | Until 2010, IIRC. | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | I have 2.6 on my other blogs. | Sep 06 15:07 |
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| trmanco | ok | Sep 06 15:08 |
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| schestowitz | With BN, I have some plugins that I don't want to risk losing. | Sep 06 15:08 |
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| schestowitz | http://wordpress.org/download/legacy/ | Sep 06 15:09 |
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| schestowitz | "In keeping with the stable/testing release philosophy of Debian we have committed to maintaining our 2.0 branch with security and critical fixes until 2010. (Yes that’s 5 years after it was originally released in 2005.)" | Sep 06 15:09 |
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| trmanco | cool | Sep 06 15:11 |
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| trmanco | I didn't know that | Sep 06 15:11 |
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| Odd_Bloke | I agree with most of http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/... but Microsoft aren't doing anything to not "permit the Kenyan people to have freedom with Free(dom) software". | Sep 06 15:23 |
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| Odd_Bloke | s/anything/anything reported within that article and directly related to cyber cafes/ | Sep 06 15:23 |
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| jose | I imagine bn has covered OLPC and Kenya, right? There is also the implied effects of dumping. While $3 is dumping when you consider it's regular price elsewhere, I think the $0 piracy is also dumping.. freebies being given to defund competitors.. think netscape and free ie and the loss they took in court as a result. | Sep 06 15:39 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, and cost of a copy is $0 anyway. | Sep 06 15:41 |
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| jose | It's the behinds the scenes dirt that we all want.. but that is hard to get.. assuming it exists. | Sep 06 15:41 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/03/... | Sep 06 15:42 |
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| *schestowitz off for a while | Sep 06 15:50 |
| jose | bn works to help put the puzzle pieces together but you don't always get the hand pulling trigger piece for each and every event. | Sep 06 15:53 |
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| jose | .. at least not right away. | Sep 06 15:54 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: hello roy | Sep 06 16:23 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: cj have a problem with you | Sep 06 16:23 |
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| warren | btw, what motivates you to boycott novell? | Sep 06 16:30 |
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| seller_liar | what? | Sep 06 16:31 |
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| trmanco | http://www.techwatch.co.uk/2008/09/0... | Sep 06 16:32 |
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| trmanco | seller_liar, Roy is away | Sep 06 16:32 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: sim ,eu vi | Sep 06 16:32 |
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| trmanco | €»€»€»€» * schestowitz off for a while | Sep 06 16:32 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: I remember now, dot gnu does not suffer of patent problems like novellsoft beucause it's gplv3 | Sep 06 16:42 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: documentaries have more power over text, if roy can do a documentary about m$ ,this is can be good | Sep 06 16:47 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: look super size me for example | Sep 06 16:47 |
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| trmanco | A documentary | Sep 06 16:48 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: yes | Sep 06 16:49 |
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| trmanco | we can contact Michael Moore, I'm sure the message will get to the vast majority :P | Sep 06 16:49 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: hehe... | Sep 06 16:49 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: but one image means 100 words | Sep 06 16:50 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: it's hard , i know,but the efficiency is the best | Sep 06 16:50 |
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| seller_liar | trmanco: easy language, passive information are the best of television | Sep 06 16:51 |
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| jose | Latest comment titled "Novell the liability" http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3... | Sep 06 17:46 |
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| jose | roy has put together a lot of information. many producers could leverage it. including amateurs in bunches on youtube. ;-) | Sep 06 17:47 |
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| trmanco | :) | Sep 06 17:48 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: further server probs - sorry. | Sep 06 17:51 |
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| jose | later | Sep 06 18:21 |
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| schestowitz | I won! (5:23 for one mile rowing) | Sep 06 19:08 |
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| Goldenear | Hi there | Sep 06 19:18 |
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| Goldenear | I would like to chat about the fear around mono | Sep 06 19:19 |
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| Goldenear | I would try to understand | Sep 06 19:19 |
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| schestowitz | Sure. | Sep 06 19:20 |
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| Goldenear | most popular linux distros now include mono by default | Sep 06 19:20 |
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| Goldenear | but many people on the web are against that | Sep 06 19:21 |
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| Goldenear | I'm trying to understand what's wrong with mono | Sep 06 19:21 |
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| schestowitz | Goldenear: some include it by default "because others do" | Sep 06 19:21 |
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| tessier | It's a trap. :( | Sep 06 19:21 |
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| Goldenear | but what's wrong in doing so | Sep 06 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | Fedora for example thought it was 'safe' (it knew it was controversial and denied it before). Then it said "everyone does it" | Sep 06 19:22 |
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| tessier | Microsoft is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patents and these people think it's a good idea use mono. | Sep 06 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | The same is often said about codecs, but the difference is the /holder/ of the patents,. | Sep 06 19:22 |
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| schestowitz | I May 2007 Microsoft openly threatened to sue Linux vendors/users. | Sep 06 19:22 |
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| tessier | Goldenear: There are tons of good and similar technologies out there. Why adopt the riskiest one? | Sep 06 19:22 |
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| tessier | And you can never tell which of the mono advocates Microsoft is behind. | Sep 06 19:23 |
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| schestowitz | Goldenear: it's not just patents though. There are other more serious issues. | Sep 06 19:23 |
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| tessier | So it's hard to tell who is really being deceptive and who really thinks mono is a good technology. | Sep 06 19:23 |
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| schestowitz | For one thing, Microsoft wants .NET spread throughout the Web for greater control. | Sep 06 19:23 |
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| tessier | And if .NET spreads we can only use IE to view the web. And no IE for Linux. | Sep 06 19:23 |
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| Goldenear | but arent't the patents issue only about the winforms asp and other specific Microsoft stuffs ? | Sep 06 19:23 |
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| schestowitz | There's a great deal of pseudo support of Mono/.NET but that's another matter. | Sep 06 19:24 |
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| tessier | Goldenear: They won't say what the patent issue is. It may even be with Mono. | Sep 06 19:24 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft for example was caught gaming polls to give the illusion that .NET is better. | Sep 06 19:24 |
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| tessier | Given that mono is a clone of a Microsoft technology it seems likely. | Sep 06 19:24 |
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| schestowitz | Do search on .NET in Google Patents. | Sep 06 19:25 |
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| schestowitz | I did that last week. | Sep 06 19:25 |
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| Goldenear | C# is not patented ? | Sep 06 19:25 |
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| schestowitz | The excuse made is that it's standardised | Sep 06 19:26 |
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| tessier | Many of the techniques and technologies in C# are patented, yes. | Sep 06 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | However, standards and patents are not mutually exclusive. | Sep 06 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | tessier: based on what I hear from people, the issue of control (technical) is greater than patents (legal) | Sep 06 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | Just watch Silverlight/Moonlight. | Sep 06 19:26 |
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| schestowitz | here you have an example of the illusion of parity. | Sep 06 19:27 |
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| tessier | That's probably true. But if control fails they will definitely resort to patents. | Sep 06 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | Could Moonlight users get access to the Olympic? No? Why not? because Microsoft owns the API | Sep 06 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | Had it been Ajax+Ogg, none of this would happen. | Sep 06 19:27 |
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| schestowitz | FF 3.1 will have Ogg built in and Chrome pushes JS and Ajax further. FF3.1 also matches Chrime performance and surpasses it. | Sep 06 19:28 |
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| schestowitz | tessier: that's what Rambus did. | Sep 06 19:28 |
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| schestowitz | Companies relinquish control of their so-called INNOVA~1 only as long as they are fat, happy and profitable. | Sep 06 19:28 |
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| Goldenear | is there any evidence that Microsoft could have something againt GTK# (from a patent point of view) ? | Sep 06 19:28 |
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| tessier | Goldenear: They will never tell us exactly what patents are being infringed by what. | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft has lost around 100 billiob dollar in value this year, so don't expect it to be gantle. | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| Goldenear | I mean more against GTK# than about GTK+ | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| schestowitz | *gentle | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| Goldenear | I don't expect that from them | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| schestowitz | There are also submarine patents. | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| tessier | Goldenear: You don't expect what from the? | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| tessier | th | Sep 06 19:29 |
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| tessier | them | Sep 06 19:30 |
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| schestowitz | Watch them patenting PgUp/PgDn in 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 | Sep 06 19:30 |
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| Goldenear | but I don't wont to become paranoid neither | Sep 06 19:30 |
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| *tessier needs to find out why his keyboard drops keys | Sep 06 19:30 |
| schestowitz | What ought to be proposed is this. | Sep 06 19:31 |
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| schestowitz | Until the folks at Novell openly explain how they got exclusive 'protection' for Mono and what individual patents are involve, say no to Novell's Mono (yes, Novell owns the framework) | Sep 06 19:31 |
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| Goldenear | anyway software patents is a poison for FOSS | Sep 06 19:32 |
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| schestowitz | Granted, they cannot be granted except for in very few countries, let alone be honoured. | Sep 06 19:33 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft bypasses the law, e.g. in India, South Africa, which means that it breaks the law by filing for software patents there. Also, it cashes in on imaginary software patents (Dell for example, plus back room deal). Microsoft is like Sisvel. | Sep 06 19:35 |
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| Goldenear | I'm living in Europe so I've not (yet) problem with software patents | Sep 06 19:36 |
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| Goldenear | but eg in the US it's a real nightmare | Sep 06 19:37 |
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| schestowitz | Don't worry, it's imploding there too, but don't be part of this implosion. | Sep 06 19:37 |
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| Goldenear | I'm pretty sure that microsoft is right where it is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patents | Sep 06 19:38 |
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| Goldenear | there are patents for almost anything | Sep 06 19:38 |
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| Goldenear | that's so crazy | Sep 06 19:38 |
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| schestowitz | Do you know how many IBM patents (i.e. OIN too) Microsoft infringes on? | Sep 06 19:39 |
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| Goldenear | and vice versa | Sep 06 19:39 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, which renders this whole system moot. | Sep 06 19:40 |
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| Goldenear | but you are protected againt other big companies when you are a big company :) | Sep 06 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | It's more complicated | Sep 06 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft would not attack Linux directly /because/ of this, | Sep 06 19:40 |
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| Goldenear | the system is only there to kill small businesses | Sep 06 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | It can pass on a little patent to Nathan Myhrvold or other former scum and have the patent troll attack Linux. | Sep 06 19:40 |
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| schestowitz | They may have already done this with Acacia (against Novell and Red Hat) | Sep 06 19:41 |
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| Goldenear | except the patents issue, is there anything else against mono ? | Sep 06 19:42 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, API control. | Sep 06 19:43 |
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| schestowitz | That's the issue which I consider more serious. | Sep 06 19:43 |
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| schestowitz | I'd need an analogy here. | Sep 06 19:43 |
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| Goldenear | API control by Microsoft ? | Sep 06 19:44 |
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| schestowitz | OOXML is one. | Sep 06 19:44 |
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| Goldenear | the difference is that OOXML already had a free/open equivalent | Sep 06 19:45 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft can and will (and already has) extend OOXML and have everyone at Microsoft's mercy not just because it's impossible to implement but also because of legal grounds. And let's not get into the OOXML corruptions even... | Sep 06 19:45 |
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| schestowitz | Goldenear: like java? | Sep 06 19:45 |
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| Goldenear | isn't the java api controlled by sun ? | Sep 06 19:45 |
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| schestowitz | Goldenear: does Java want to "f* kill" the "cancer" called F OSS? | Sep 06 19:46 |
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| Goldenear | ? | Sep 06 19:46 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft's one side of the mouth says use Mono (yes, its people say so) and the other says that it's only for Novell and that it can and might sue over patents. | Sep 06 19:47 |
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| Goldenear | so, why not fork mono and make a clean one, only with GTK# ? | Sep 06 19:48 |
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| schestowitz | Define 'clean' for a clone. | Sep 06 19:49 |
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| schestowitz | It's like saying "let's make a clean version of OOXML" | Sep 06 19:49 |
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| Goldenear | OOXML is not clean from it's basis... it's really MS office dependent (and at least the first version of OOXML included some dark binary blobs) | Sep 06 19:50 |
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| Goldenear | c# is now an ecma standard... so it can be freely implemented | Sep 06 19:51 |
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| schestowitz | Free as in...? | Sep 06 19:51 |
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| Goldenear | gtk# is just gtk for c# | Sep 06 19:51 |
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| Goldenear | free as a free people | Sep 06 19:52 |
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| benJIman | I think not providing mono would be a much bigger hinderance to free software. Developers are more likely to write and contribute to free software in their spare time if they can do so with a language and platform they know. Not allowing .net developers to contribute is losing a massive potential contributor base. | Sep 06 19:52 |
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| schestowitz | Should Linux also adopt DirectX and ActiveX? | Sep 06 19:52 |
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| benJIman | The kernel? | Sep 06 19:53 |
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| schestowitz | You know what I mean | Sep 06 19:53 |
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| benJIman | If someone wants to work on implementing them then sure. | Sep 06 19:53 |
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| Goldenear | wine can run many directx apps | Sep 06 19:53 |
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| benJIman | Indeed. | Sep 06 19:53 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, BUT. | Sep 06 19:54 |
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| schestowitz | People do not develop on Linux /FOR/ Wine. | Sep 06 19:54 |
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| benJIman | Some people do. | Sep 06 19:54 |
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| benJIman | e.g. picassa for winelib iirc. | Sep 06 19:54 |
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| schestowitz | It's one thing to bring .NET application to run them on Linux and another to use Monodevelop to write them from scratch the Microsoft way. | Sep 06 19:54 |
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| Goldenear | but that a very special case imho | Sep 06 19:54 |
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| schestowitz | How so? | Sep 06 19:54 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: Even if those developers would otherwise not contribute to free software at all? | Sep 06 19:55 |
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| schestowitz | You give them convenience with bad habits, so they won't change them. | Sep 06 19:56 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: If .net is used for 20-30% of business software development (numbers out of the air, but not an unreasonable guess I think) then that's an awful lot of people who could be contributing. | Sep 06 19:56 |
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| schestowitz | Compromise. | Sep 06 19:56 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.html | Sep 06 19:56 |
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| benJIman | If the implementation were non-free I might agree with you. | Sep 06 19:56 |
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| schestowitz | They empower an enemy of fredom. | Sep 06 19:57 |
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| benJIman | Free software is free to empower anyone. | Sep 06 19:58 |
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| Goldenear | If it's done cleverly mono could empower freedom with a Microsoft based technology... | Sep 06 19:58 |
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| Goldenear | the trick is just to be vigilent | Sep 06 19:58 |
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| schestowitz | For the record, Goldenear, benJIman is here to defend Novell. | Sep 06 20:00 |
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| Goldenear | why couldn't gtk# be a weapon against MS | Sep 06 20:00 |
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| benJIman | For the record, I am not here to defend Novell. | Sep 06 20:00 |
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| schestowitz | Because as soon as gtk# becomes a threat to Microsoft, it has power to harm it. | Sep 06 20:00 |
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| schestowitz | not the same with gtk+ | Sep 06 20:00 |
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| Goldenear | what's the difference ? | Sep 06 20:01 |
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| benJIman | I disagree with the personification of Microsoft as an evil entity. I have no problem disagreeing with some of their corporate actions, they do some things that are helpful for free software too. | Sep 06 20:01 |
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| schestowitz | benJIman: *LOL* Yeah, not at all... | Sep 06 20:01 |
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| schestowitz | benJIman: You're here to 'add balance' | Sep 06 20:01 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: As I mentioned yesterday I disagree with Novell's actions on many things, including parts of the microsoft covenant. | Sep 06 20:01 |
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| schestowitz | Goldenear: Microsoft controls the API and get hooked on C# | Sep 06 20:01 |
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| Goldenear | but now C# is ecma, MS is not alone to be allowed to control it, isn't it ? | Sep 06 20:02 |
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| schestowitz | Do you know what ECMA is? | Sep 06 20:03 |
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| Goldenear | yes I do... what do you mean ? | Sep 06 20:04 |
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| schestowitz | It's corrupt. it's a front for companies. | Sep 06 20:06 |
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| Goldenear | and what about ISO ? | Sep 06 20:09 |
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| schestowitz | Same now that it was captured by a vendor, but not quite as bad. | Sep 06 20:11 |
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| schestowitz | ECMA is partly responsible for what happened to ISO. | Sep 06 20:12 |
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| Goldenear | if java is a real challenger for mono, why is it not used for making Linux/gnome apps ? | Sep 06 20:15 |
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| benJIman | It is. | Sep 06 20:15 |
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| Goldenear | do you have example of a java/gnome application ? | Sep 06 20:16 |
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| benJIman | Google java-gnome there are some. | Sep 06 20:16 |
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| Goldenear | I can't find any | Sep 06 20:16 |
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| schestowitz | RSSOwl. | Sep 06 20:17 |
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| benJIman | Not as many because it until recently mono was freer than java, and also mono has had more desktop sponsorship from novell. | Sep 06 20:17 |
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| schestowitz | It uses Eclipse though. | Sep 06 20:17 |
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| Goldenear | is java really freer than mono now ? | Sep 06 20:20 |
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| tessier | OO.org uses Java | Sep 06 20:21 |
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| Goldenear | but it's not a java app | Sep 06 20:22 |
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| Goldenear | it only extents some of its functions in java | Sep 06 20:22 |
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| tessier | It comes with java apps | Sep 06 20:22 |
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| benJIman | There are a few java-swt applications. e.g. eclipse, azureus. Fewer using java-gnome though. | Sep 06 20:23 |
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| benJIman | Not many qtjambi apps yet either, quite a new technology. | Sep 06 20:24 |
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| Goldenear | benJIman: could you give me the name of one java-gnome application ? | Sep 06 20:26 |
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| schestowitz | Default? | Sep 06 20:28 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8111 | Sep 06 20:30 |
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| benJIman | Goldenear: I don't use GNOME, don't really follow such things. | Sep 06 20:30 |
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| benJIman | Have you looked at their website? | Sep 06 20:30 |
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| Goldenear | yep | Sep 06 20:30 |
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| Goldenear | what do you use benJIman ? | Sep 06 20:32 |
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| Goldenear | KDE ? | Sep 06 20:32 |
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| benJIman | Yes. | Sep 06 20:32 |
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| Goldenear | I did too | Sep 06 20:32 |
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| PetoKraus | i can say i never used kde or gnome | Sep 06 20:33 |
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| Goldenear | but I sadly had to admit that gnome seems to have won the Linux desktop as a standard... because of gtk LGPL | Sep 06 20:33 |
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| benJIman | Well I might be tempted to use GNOME as I'd be more likely to contribute to it with mono than KDE with c++. | Sep 06 20:34 |
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| benJIman | But there are some deal breakers. | Sep 06 20:34 |
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| benJIman | Like the dialogue buttons being the wrong way round. | Sep 06 20:34 |
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| Goldenear | what do you mean ? | Sep 06 20:34 |
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| benJIman | In GNOME the "lose my work" button is where most of the computing world has the "save" button. | Sep 06 20:35 |
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| benJIman | On every dialogue. | Sep 06 20:35 |
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| PetoKraus | there's no consistency whatsoever even under gnome apps | Sep 06 20:35 |
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| Goldenear | I din't notice that | Sep 06 20:35 |
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| Goldenear | PetoKraus: no consistency ? | Sep 06 20:36 |
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| PetoKraus | in the placement of "save / don't save / cancel" buttons | Sep 06 20:36 |
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| schestowitz | There are icons. | Sep 06 20:37 |
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| schestowitz | Can't miss the nice green ones. Same in KDE. | Sep 06 20:37 |
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| PetoKraus | one would have to get used to the fact, that "linux desktop" will be inconsistent | Sep 06 20:39 |
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| schestowitz | Inconsistency is prevalent in other systems too. Even OS/X. They have third parties. | Sep 06 20:40 |
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| PetoKraus | no, it's prevalent in windows | Sep 06 20:41 |
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| schestowitz | Guidelines are best obeyed and /controlled/ by the vendor controlling the platform and selling it. | Sep 06 20:41 |
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| PetoKraus | though one thing is really missing from "linux desktop" | Sep 06 20:42 |
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| PetoKraus | clipboard working between qt and gtk apps, and terminal window, and, say, mozilla developed apps. | Sep 06 20:42 |
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| Goldenear | button placement in gnome is the same than in OS X | Sep 06 20:43 |
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| schestowitz | OS X is golden standard? | Sep 06 20:43 |
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| Goldenear | nop, neither windows ;) | Sep 06 20:44 |
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| benJIman | Putting the buttons in a different order to that 95% of users are trained to using is silly. | Sep 06 20:44 |
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| benJIman | Not to mention that humans read English left to right. | Sep 06 20:44 |
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| Goldenear | I don't see anything wrong with the buttun placement in gnome, and I reade left to right.... | Sep 06 20:47 |
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| Goldenear | but it's just a question of tastes I guess :) | Sep 06 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | Like driving | Sep 06 20:49 |
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| Goldenear | lol | Sep 06 20:50 |
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| Goldenear | exactly :) | Sep 06 20:50 |
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| schestowitz | No right or wrong, unless it's defined by consistency, which changes across lands (or platforms) | Sep 06 20:52 |
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| benJIman | Well KDE will change button order depending on what style you choose. GNOME doesn't provide a facility to do this. | Sep 06 20:54 |
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| benJIman | If using GNOME style or KDE apps in GNOME they will use the GNOME button order. | Sep 06 20:54 |
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| benJIman | GNOME apps just wrong in kde. | Sep 06 20:54 |
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| MinceR | imo the button order the GNOME HIG prescribes is dumb. | Sep 06 20:55 |
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| Goldenear | then so it is in os X | Sep 06 20:56 |
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| MinceR | osx being retarded is not news :> | Sep 06 21:32 |
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| MinceR | confirmed, the osx button order is the same retarded one. | Sep 06 21:41 |
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| schestowitz | Screenie? | Sep 06 21:47 |
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| MinceR | http://developer.apple.com/documen... | Sep 06 21:48 |
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| schestowitz | It looks right to me. | Sep 06 21:49 |
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| MinceR | i find it annoying. | Sep 06 21:51 |
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| schestowitz | Castle uv' Jobs prescribes pixel separation between buttons. Or else! | Sep 06 21:51 |
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| MinceR | i could care less about pixel separation (except that it shouldn't really be measured in pixels...) | Sep 06 21:52 |
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| MinceR | putting cancel to the left of ok is what annoys me | Sep 06 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | It seems natural to me based on habit (I haven't used anything but KDE and GNOME for many years). | Sep 06 21:56 |
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| MinceR | perhaps the retards at crapple haven't realized yet that most writing systems go from left to right | Sep 06 21:58 |
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| MinceR | and that people normally want to execute the action they initiate | Sep 06 21:59 |
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| schestowitz | I dunno. How's cancel/allow sorted? | Sep 06 22:00 |
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| MinceR | i haven't seen that dialog | Sep 06 22:00 |
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| schestowitz | Mouse practice: http://www.egg-attack.com/ (context: http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/... ) | Sep 06 22:00 |
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| MinceR | i've only ever used vista once | Sep 06 22:00 |
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| MinceR | even that one time it failed horribly at unmounting an usb storage device | Sep 06 22:01 |
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| MinceR | we had to shut the damn thing down | Sep 06 22:01 |
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| neighborlee | my friend has vista, and only now with 4 gigs of ram does he find it liveable....I tried it and man was it a monstrosity | Sep 06 22:08 |
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| schestowitz | DRM sucks.... CPU and RAM. | Sep 06 22:09 |
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| schestowitz | But the issues go beyond a DRM-riddles codebase, which they can't remove now. | Sep 06 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | *riddled | Sep 06 22:10 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: I think all is well again at the server side | Sep 06 22:29 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: I'll post soon. Just been disracted lately. | Sep 06 22:30 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: good, really - I've had a few problems :-) | Sep 06 22:30 |
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| schestowitz | What do you mean? | Sep 06 22:31 |
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| kentma | failing disks - I've been zeroing blocks to force the disks to re-assign - and this is in a raid array... irritating | Sep 06 22:31 |
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| schestowitz | Thankfully I haven't had any issues accessing old posts. It must be ruining your weekend. | Sep 06 22:38 |
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| Goldenear | schestowitz: I found that about you : http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2008/08/i... | Sep 06 22:45 |
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| schestowitz | I beg to differ. | Sep 06 22:51 |
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| Goldenear | lol | Sep 06 22:52 |
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| Goldenear | what I understand now is that fear about mono is due to hate against MS... mono as based on a MS technology is seen as a devil stuff | Sep 06 22:53 |
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| Goldenear | If mono really wants to clone .NET, then it's a bad idea | Sep 06 22:53 |
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| Goldenear | if mono mostly focus on GTK# and other things not directly MS related it could be fine | Sep 06 22:54 |
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| Goldenear | also let see what Vala will do | Sep 06 22:54 |
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| Goldenear | it may change somethings about linux distros installing mono by default | Sep 06 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | Can you elaborate on " hate against MS"? | Sep 06 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer spoke about this label the other day ("hate"). This is about risk, not hate. Microsoft is the only company (other than SCO) that threatens GNU/Linux. | Sep 06 22:57 |
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| Goldenear | Hate against their commercial politics | Sep 06 23:03 |
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| Goldenear | Hate againt the state of mind of MS CEO | Sep 06 23:03 |
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| schestowitz | That da!! | Sep 06 23:03 |
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| Goldenear | (I share all of this) | Sep 06 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | Oops. Ignore me. | Sep 06 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | Just seen something scary. | Sep 06 23:04 |
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| Goldenear | what ? MS CEO ? | Sep 06 23:04 |
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| Goldenear | lol | Sep 06 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | No, I can't understand something. | Sep 06 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | I've just watched AWStats. | Sep 06 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | I says 28,000+ pageviews (excluding search engines) 0AM-7PM, but I can't figure out where it comes from. | Sep 06 23:06 |
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| *Goldenear has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 06 23:10 |
| benJIman | How many requests do you have in an average day, including feed requests? | Sep 06 23:10 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know. It depends on how it's counted. | Sep 06 23:12 |
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| benJIman | Number of files requested. | Sep 06 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | But anyway, it seems like people just read more. I can't figure out what caused it. | Sep 06 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | About 50,000 I think. Let me check. | Sep 06 23:13 |
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| schestowitz | 66,000 on average | Sep 06 23:13 |
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| benJIman | Over 1/3 of planetsuse, impressive. | Sep 06 23:13 |
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| benJIman | That must use a fair amount of bandwidth considering you use images quite a bit. | Sep 06 23:14 |
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| schestowitz | The hosting account might need changed in a month or two because it grows. Shane is hardly on the Internet, sadly. | Sep 06 23:15 |
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| schestowitz | The luv is here: http://www.tuxmachines.org/stats/index.html | Sep 06 23:16 |
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| benJIman | What do you mean? | Sep 06 23:16 |
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| schestowitz | About Shane or Susan's site? | Sep 06 23:17 |
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| benJIman | Why was susan's relevant? | Sep 06 23:17 |
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| schestowitz | It declined this summer, but she's hugely popular and also one of my favourite news sources. | Sep 06 23:18 |
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| benJIman | I suspect susan doesn't read the planets either, she misses out on lots of things on the planets - like you do. | Sep 06 23:19 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, probably. | Sep 06 23:19 |
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| benJIman | She ususally posts a lot of blogs from random people with a few lines of content and misses the interesting developer blogs with actual content. | Sep 06 23:21 |
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| schestowitz | Well, she /does/ covers a lot of OpenSUSE, which she likes. | Sep 06 23:21 |
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| benJIman | Not really. | Sep 06 23:21 |
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| benJIman | It's usually "I installed openSUSE. [end of blog]" | Sep 06 23:22 |
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| benJIman | She really doesn't link anything from planetsuse unless it's linked on opensuse news. | Sep 06 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | That too. It still goes deeper than LXer, LinuxToday and other aggregators. | Sep 06 23:23 |
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| benJIman | Best off subscribing to planet{kde,gnome,fedora,ubuntu,debian,suse} etc if you want interesting content. | Sep 06 23:24 |
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| benJIman | Hardly any of it hits any of the aggregators. | Sep 06 23:25 |
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| benJIman | The mono planet is called monologue btw. | Sep 06 23:25 |
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| schestowitz | Mono. Mono!! Mono!!! No, thanks. :-) | Sep 06 23:26 |
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| benJIman | http://www.go-mono.com/monologue/ It's quite interesting quite often. | Sep 06 23:26 |
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| benJIman | Although most of them seem to develop on vista. | Sep 06 23:26 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, because Novell isn't a believer in the Linux desktop,remember? | Sep 06 23:27 |
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| benJIman | There are a lot of people there not employed by Novell, probably the majority. | Sep 06 23:28 |
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| benJIman | The posts from the IKVM (java on .net) person are particularly interesting. | Sep 06 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | This is big: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2... | Sep 06 23:29 |
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| schestowitz | Context: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/20/ca.../a> | Sep 06 23:33 |
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| *seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 06 23:53 |
