03.13.09

^{Gemini version available ♊︎}

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 12th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:02 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

schestowitz	That’s BS	Mar 12 00:00
schestowitz	It’s not the first	Mar 12 00:00
schestowitz	Gregg Keizer has not been paying attention	Mar 12 00:00
schestowitz	But Microsoft says Linux is secure just because it’s used by ‘few’ (which is not true by the way)	Mar 12 00:01
schestowitz	Is Vista7 already widely deployed then?	Mar 12 00:01
schestowitz	Or is it just Vista, aka XP redone badly	Mar 12 00:01
trmanco	http://distrowatch.com/?newsid=05372	Mar 12 00:03
trmanco	not it’s really vista done in a different way	Mar 12 00:03
trmanco	think of it, XP the good, Vista the bad and 7 the ugly, this thinking only in microfoot’s OSes	Mar 12 00:04
schestowitz		Mar 12 00:07
schestowitz	XP was no good, either	Mar 12 00:07
schestowitz	Compared to Vista it might seem good	Mar 12 00:07
Balrog	compared to vista, XP works	Mar 12 00:07
Balrog	XP becomes useless after 3-6 months of me using it though	Mar 12 00:08
Balrog	tells a lot about its stability	Mar 12 00:08
trmanco	http://magazine.redhat.com/2009/03/10/ri…	Mar 12 00:09
trmanco	this is what I call a somewhat legitimate security report	Mar 12 00:09
schestowitz	“Mozila [...] NOT!”	Mar 12 00:11
schestowitz	That’s Microsoft attitude	Mar 12 00:11
schestowitz	Borat like.	Mar 12 00:11
schestowitz	They hire ‘professionals’	Mar 12 00:11
schestowitz	To write in their buddy platform, IDG	Mar 12 00:11
schestowitz	brb	Mar 12 00:11
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schestowitz	Microsoft sells kids: Child offered for sale on Xbox Live < http://www.reghardware.co… >	Mar 12 00:15
schestowitz	National Semiconductor to lay off 1,725 < http://www.theregister.co.uk/… >; Spansion gets Nasdaq delisting notice < http://www.theregister.co.uk/200… >. There was an article earlier about recreating forests using out-of-work people.	Mar 12 00:16
schestowitz	is Sun trying to steal the thunder from kernel.org (Linux)? http://www.itwire.com/con… It also tried ‘stealing’ “LAMP”	Mar 12 00:20
balzac	The reason M$ software still sucks after all these decades is that their software doesn’t arise from social integrity. *nix software has the academic and scientific community’s social integrity from which a higher level of general integration has emerged	Mar 12 00:23
schestowitz	Wow! “47% of the German GNU/Linux server market share is Debian. That doesn’t count Ubuntu Server Edition, Centos, Fedora, Slackware, and other less well known and also freely available distributions.” http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php…	Mar 12 00:24
schestowitz	Wow again. “Fedora 10 has been gaining new users at impressive rates. This past week alone Fedora 10 has picked up over 100,000 more. ” http://californiaquantum.wordpress…	Mar 12 00:26
schestowitz	In BN, 1 in 3 Linux users is a Ubuntu user	Mar 12 00:29
Balrog	anything wrong with Ubuntu?	Mar 12 00:30
schestowitz	Windows has a market share of 44% at most	Mar 12 00:30
schestowitz	Balrog: not at all.	Mar 12 00:30
schestowitz	I like Debian	Mar 12 00:30
Balrog	I set up a new user with XP / Ubuntu (dual boot) … good idea? He won’t do without windows, so is that fine?	Mar 12 00:30
schestowitz	Because it’s not tied to investors	Mar 12 00:30
schestowitz	Balrog: well done.	Mar 12 00:31
Balrog	Debian is good, but for new users?	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	Maybe. Why not?	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	If you set it up for them	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	Or preload it	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	Like MEPIS	Mar 12 00:31
Balrog	The people at our univ. don’t support ubuntu, only fedora, so I’m supporting it	Mar 12 00:31
Balrog	(for him)	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	Or Xandros which is based on it too	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	Knoppix..	Mar 12 00:31
Balrog	we use Knoppix for diag	Mar 12 00:31
Balrog	here	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	Cool.	Mar 12 00:31
schestowitz	I’m impressed with how quickly it gains	Mar 12 00:32
schestowitz	No wonder MS is suing	Mar 12 00:32
schestowitz	And throwing out XP for $5 apiece	Mar 12 00:32
schestowitz	Take it, just take it!	Mar 12 00:32
schestowitz	“Just don’t use this Lunix thing”	Mar 12 00:32
Balrog	heh	Mar 12 00:32
schestowitz	They go aggressve like this in India and Brazil	Mar 12 00:32
Balrog	here we have MSDN XP and Vista	Mar 12 00:32
schestowitz	They blame “piracy”. They don’t say the L word	Mar 12 00:32
Balrog	though no-one uses vista	Mar 12 00:32
schestowitz	It might give people ideas	Mar 12 00:33
schestowitz	And dumping is euphemised as “chairity”	Mar 12 00:33
Balrog	heh yeah	Mar 12 00:33
Balrog	but what about free software…????	Mar 12 00:33
schestowitz	gratis	Mar 12 00:33
Balrog	meaning real free	Mar 12 00:33
schestowitz	Gates says MS does free software	Mar 12 00:33
Balrog	foss	Mar 12 00:33
Balrog	well it’s not free if anyone can’t get it for free	Mar 12 00:34
schestowitz	And “then there’s this thing called the GPL, which we disgree with” (Gate, April 2004 talk)	Mar 12 00:34
Balrog	if a school gets it free and a business has to pay for it, you can’t call it free	Mar 12 00:34
Balrog	if they disagree with GPL, why not use a GPL-incompatible FOSS license like CDDL?	Mar 12 00:34
Balrog	it’s still FOSS….	Mar 12 00:34
schestowitz	Yeah..	Mar 12 00:34
schestowitz	They use CDDL?	Mar 12 00:34
schestowitz	MS uses Novell to touch GPL	Mar 12 00:35
schestowitz	Citrix too is a GPL ‘proxy’	Mar 12 00:35
schestowitz	Microsoft can’t touch it	Mar 12 00:35
schestowitz	Microsoft preaches in microsoft.com that GPL is evil and all..	Mar 12 00:35
Balrog	I know some people who don’t like GPL because it’s viral	Mar 12 00:35
Balrog	:/	Mar 12 00:37
Balrog	what’s better for a new user: kde or gnome?	Mar 12 00:37
schestowitz	depends…	Mar 12 00:38
*schestowitz eats		Mar 12 00:38
schestowitz	advaNCED N00B?	Mar 12 00:39
Balrog	someone who’s used to XP and visual studio and all	Mar 12 00:39
schestowitz	or total n00b?	Mar 12 00:39
schestowitz	kde4 then?	Mar 12 00:39
Balrog	nope, an experienced one	Mar 12 00:39
Balrog	but zero knowledge of anything unix	Mar 12 00:39
schestowitz	linus tried 4.0	Mar 12 00:39
schestowitz	big mistake	Mar 12 00:40
schestowitz	too early	Mar 12 00:40
Balrog	yes absolutely	Mar 12 00:40
Balrog	though gnome is much cleaner than ked	Mar 12 00:40
Balrog	kde *	Mar 12 00:40
Balrog	I put in gnome kde AND xfce	Mar 12 00:41
balzac	http://www.pcmech.com/article/good-lin…	Mar 12 00:43
balzac	what a clown	Mar 12 00:44
balzac	[#boycottnovell] Pu! I#[7m@Ym not a #[7m@\Linux Zealot#[7m@]. I#[7m@Ym a GNU user. Microsoft can take their software patents and stuff them.	Mar 12 00:45
balzac	oops	Mar 12 00:45
Balrog	good linux users complain big-time about MS	Mar 12 00:45
balzac	how do those trashy characters get in there…	Mar 12 00:45
schestowitz	balzac: yes, seen the headline earlier, not the article	Mar 12 00:45
schestowitz	Sounds like the fools who later wonder about lawsuits	Mar 12 00:46
balzac	The guy says “to Linux Zealots fsck you!”	Mar 12 00:46
schestowitz	And software patents in Europe and all..	Mar 12 00:46
Balrog	especially about everything that MS does that causes PROBLEMS in linux	Mar 12 00:46
Balrog	like silver light	Mar 12 00:46
Balrog	D=	Mar 12 00:46
schestowitz	It’s intentional	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	Remember memos	Mar 12 00:47
Balrog	yeah I know	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	“Under NO circumstances lose to Linux”	Mar 12 00:47
Balrog	yes.	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	“We need to innovate beyond/above standards”	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	I.e. we need to make things that won’t work in Linux	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	“There will be a lawsuit against Linux”	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	Etc etc.	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	SCO suit	Mar 12 00:47
schestowitz	Old debate anyway	Mar 12 00:48
schestowitz	When people bring it up then… hold on.	Mar 12 00:48
balzac	No, Rich Menga, fsck you! I’m not a “Linux Zealot”. I’m a GNU user. And Microsoft can take their software patents and stuff them. M$ stinks!	Mar 12 00:48
schestowitz	See picture: http://slated.org/why_do…	Mar 12 00:48
balzac	He said “To Linux zealots – fsck you!”	Mar 12 00:48
balzac	The best comeback to “fsck you” is “no, fsck you”	Mar 12 00:49
schestowitz	Balrog: in Popular Mechanics, eh?	Mar 12 00:49
schestowitz	Anyway, I’d rather not fight them	Mar 12 00:49
schestowitz	Watse of energy	Mar 12 00:49
Balrog	name mixup fail	Mar 12 00:49
schestowitz	Civil wars	Mar 12 00:49
balzac	learned that one in an Ahnuld Gropenfuhrer movie	Mar 12 00:49
schestowitz	Let’s keep up the good work exposing Microsoft	Mar 12 00:49
schestowitz	I’ve known people who changed from MS apathy to something else	Mar 12 00:49
schestowitz	Because they saw Comes stuff for example	Mar 12 00:50
schestowitz	They wears off the “we’ve changes… the New Microsoft” makeup	Mar 12 00:50
balzac	Roy, it doesn’t cost me much energy to return a “fsck you” back to it’s rightful owner.	Mar 12 00:53
schestowitz	Adobe neglects UNIX/Linux again: http://www.pcworld.com/article/16109… “The fix is only available for version 9, with an update for older 7 and 8 versions expected by March 18, the company says. Unix users will need to wait until March 25 for an update.”	Mar 12 00:55
schestowitz	balzac: yes, but we make things worse by aggravating further the wrong people	Mar 12 00:55
Balrog	adobe doesn’t care for linux	Mar 12 00:55
schestowitz	I think:	Mar 12 00:55
schestowitz	Ignore his post	Mar 12 00:55
balzac	Who cares about Adobe. I’m neglecting them now, after 10 years of photoshop	Mar 12 00:55
schestowitz	Analyse something like Comes	Mar 12 00:56
balzac	Roy, I don’t agree.	Mar 12 00:56
schestowitz	Then show him	Mar 12 00:56
schestowitz	Let him make own mind	Mar 12 00:56
schestowitz	I heard the name Rich Menga before.	Mar 12 00:56
schestowitz	Let me check.	Mar 12 00:56
balzac	he can make up his own mind, but he can also get back what he puts out	Mar 12 00:56
schestowitz	Haha. http://www.menga.net/2004/08/22/linux-n…	Mar 12 00:57
balzac	It was a douchey article	Mar 12 00:57
schestowitz	Anti Linux?	Mar 12 00:57
schestowitz	balzac: I didn’t read the article	Mar 12 00:57
balzac	who is he to go on about who is or isn’t a good “linux” user?	Mar 12 00:57
schestowitz	It seemed like it would only annoy me	Mar 12 00:57
schestowitz	Also from him: Would The Internet Exist Without Linux? < http://www.pcmech.com/article/woul… >	Mar 12 00:57
schestowitz	balzac: agreed	Mar 12 00:58
schestowitz	To say who is “good” is wrong	Mar 12 00:58
balzac	Roy, i always like to raise the ante when i’m right because it makes it that much more fun to be victorious.	Mar 12 00:58
schestowitz	But I didn’t read it	Mar 12 00:58
schestowitz	He hardly writes about Linux	Mar 12 00:58
balzac	honestly, I pity fools who go on like that with no substance at all.	Mar 12 00:58
schestowitz	But… he’s not our enemy	Mar 12 00:59
schestowitz	I learned the same about Matt asay	Mar 12 00:59
schestowitz	Better to be diplomatic	Mar 12 00:59
balzac	not an enemey at all, just a douchey software pundit	Mar 12 00:59
schestowitz	He’s like friends with many of us… just not 100% in agreement… but why alienate if we can use him on ‘our team’?	Mar 12 00:59
balzac	naw man, it’s funny to do verbal retaliation. it’s fun and sporting to talk trash anyway.	Mar 12 01:00
schestowitz	This reminds me…	Mar 12 01:00
Balrog	the internet would suck without linux	Mar 12 01:00
balzac	Roy, that’s a failing strategy	Mar 12 01:00
schestowitz	Some people act as self-appointed spokespeople on matters	Mar 12 01:00
schestowitz	It’s not fair	Mar 12 01:00
schestowitz	Like Microsoft on OSS	Mar 12 01:00
schestowitz	“move over RMS.. Microsoft knows OSS better”	Mar 12 01:00
schestowitz	OSS	Mar 12 01:00
balzac	he wants to waltz into the “linux community” and talk trash about FSF/GNU people?	Mar 12 01:01
schestowitz	Not FOSS	Mar 12 01:01
balzac	fsck him	Mar 12 01:01
balzac	exactly	Mar 12 01:01
schestowitz	“If you care about money, don’t follow RMS” — Microsoft	Mar 12 01:01
schestowitz	Like RMS on Linus and freedom	Mar 12 01:01
balzac	fine, but I’ll fight for the money too.	Mar 12 01:01
schestowitz		Mar 12 01:01
balzac	i love fighting over money	Mar 12 01:02
balzac	if there’s no fight, there probably isn’t much money involved	Mar 12 01:02
balzac	no fight, no glory	Mar 12 01:02
balzac	grab glory!	Mar 12 01:02
balzac	grab money and then count it in gnu cash	Mar 12 01:03
schestowitz	Hehe. gnucash	Mar 12 01:04
balzac	besides, the guy wasn’t just talking trash about free software users, he was directly saying FU!	Mar 12 01:04
schestowitz	Yes, so you say	Mar 12 01:04
balzac	there’s a difference between misunderstanding and overtly, gratuitously insulting	Mar 12 01:04
schestowitz	I won’t read it cause then I might go ballistic	Mar 12 01:04
balzac	well, he said FU to you, Roy.	Mar 12 01:05
schestowitz	Like this:	Mar 12 01:05
schestowitz	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commo…	Mar 12 01:05
schestowitz	balzac: I say g’day back	Mar 12 01:05
balzac	Actually, I respect a guy more who says “FU” directly rather than just lying and pretending not to be hostile.	Mar 12 01:05
schestowitz	He can talk to the hand	Mar 12 01:05
schestowitz	Also, it’s bad to give him attention	Mar 12 01:05
schestowitz	Or to the artcle	Mar 12 01:06
schestowitz	I avoid Enderle crap for this reason	Mar 12 01:06
balzac	I disagree	Mar 12 01:06
schestowitz	So do other editors, bar lxer	Mar 12 01:06
schestowitz	If you feed them, they’ll drool more	Mar 12 01:06
balzac	It’s good to go and verbally-clash until they cry out “can’t we all just get along?”	Mar 12 01:07
balzac	Then you say “ha. i knew you were a cry-baby.”	Mar 12 01:07
balzac	jk	Mar 12 01:07
balzac	No mercy! Kobra Kai!	Mar 12 01:08
balzac	At the end of the day, it’s only joking around.	Mar 12 01:10
schestowitz	Can you picture Ballmer saying “can’t we all just get along?”	Mar 12 01:11
schestowitz	As opposed to say, Cisco’s CEO? Chambers, right?	Mar 12 01:12
schestowitz	PCLinuxOS 2009.1 Final Released < http://www.pclinuxos.com/index.p… >. Stupid Munckins in USENET tried to debunk this.	Mar 12 01:12
balzac	But I got into a debate with this one guy who was actually an “open source” guy. He ended up comparing the FSF to Hamas.	Mar 12 01:12
schestowitz	LOL	Mar 12 01:12
balzac	Then he edited his comment to take that out, but I already had seen his first comment.	Mar 12 01:13
schestowitz	Hamas promotes extreme action	Mar 12 01:13
schestowitz	FSF promotes freedom and harmony	Mar 12 01:13
schestowitz	it’s like comparing the hippies to some US militia	Mar 12 01:13
balzac	yeah, that was an example of the greater internet fuckwad theory: http://fishbowl.pastiche.org/2004…	Mar 12 01:14
balzac	I won’t name names, but I was pretty disappointed in that guy. Even M$ isn’t that nasty, and this was an “open source” guy writing for a free software branded publication	Mar 12 01:15
schestowitz	Kool-Aid here: Critical Mass < http://danlynch.org/blog/2009… >	Mar 12 01:16
Balrog	is there a page that shows what percentage of servers online are Windows and what % are linux and other OS?	Mar 12 01:19
Balrog	I thought netcraft had something of that nature	Mar 12 01:19
Balrog	I need it now. :/ … someone I know is convinced that ‘microsoft rules the world’ and that ‘php isnt bad, but its unrefined…. its good for some applications, but when you need to handle billions in sales a month, you use asp.net. end of story’	Mar 12 01:19
Balrog	anyone know?	Mar 12 01:20
Balrog	I have to get going, so it would be good to find out.	Mar 12 01:22
schestowitz	http://www.lockergnome.com/theoracle/2… “Ed Bott is doing his best over at ZDNet to spread the Microsoft religion, with the wonders of Windows 7 extolled nearly each day in a new and different way.”	Mar 12 01:26
schestowitz	Balrog: Web servers?	Mar 12 01:26
schestowitz	Ballmer says 60% Linux	Mar 12 01:26
Balrog	yes, he’s a web developer that uses ASP.NET	Mar 12 01:26
Balrog	I need verifiable sources online	Mar 12 01:26
balzac	gnu/linux / *nix ?	Mar 12 01:26
schestowitz	I have it from Ballmer	Mar 12 01:27
Balrog	“unbiased”	Mar 12 01:27
schestowitz	Quote	Mar 12 01:27
Balrog	yeah but he won’t trust you	Mar 12 01:27
schestowitz	Not even SweatyB?	Mar 12 01:27
Balrog	not if it’s from your site	Mar 12 01:27
Balrog	he’s sold on it	Mar 12 01:27
schestowitz	No, not mine	Mar 12 01:27
schestowitz	Wintel press	Mar 12 01:27
Balrog	link?	Mar 12 01:27
schestowitz	http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter…	Mar 12 01:28
schestowitz	“Forty percent of servers run Windows, 60 percent run Linux,” he said. “How are we doing? Forty is less than 60, so I don’t like it. … We have some work to do.”	Mar 12 01:28
Balrog	also what about	Mar 12 01:28
Balrog	PHP vs. ASP.NET?	Mar 12 01:28
schestowitz	Dunno	Mar 12 01:28
schestowitz	Judge by merit, not #	Mar 12 01:28
Balrog	says ‘php isnt bad, but its unrefined…. its good for some applications, but when you need to handle billions in sales a month, you use asp.net. end of story’	Mar 12 01:29
schestowitz	Bushtroopers powered by Linux: http://blog.wired.com/defens…	Mar 12 01:31
schestowitz	Balrog: opposite	Mar 12 01:31
schestowitz	Show him the LSE disaster	Mar 12 01:31
schestowitz	Most stock exchanges run UNIX or Linux	Mar 12 01:31
Balrog	says he’s tried PHP lately	Mar 12 01:31
Balrog	url?	Mar 12 01:32
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/08…	Mar 12 01:33
Balrog	an external linx	Mar 12 01:33
Balrog	link *	Mar 12 01:33
schestowitz	Use the links there	Mar 12 01:33
schestowitz	Many… about 20	Mar 12 01:33
schestowitz	You insult BN?	Mar 12 01:33
schestowitz	Not good enough for ya, PUNK?	Mar 12 01:33
schestowitz	http://news.opensuse.org/2009/03/1… SUSE fail	Mar 12 01:34
schestowitz	Maybe SUSE was moved to Mono.NET or something at Novell’s behest	Mar 12 01:35
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schestowitz	Another asshole has just forged me….	Mar 12 01:54
schestowitz	Posted some anti-Linux stuff under my name in USENET	Mar 12 01:54
schestowitz	The server dropped me for a while.	Mar 12 01:56
schestowitz	The following didn’t make it through:	Mar 12 01:56
schestowitz	<schestowitz> You insult BN?	Mar 12 01:56
schestowitz	<schestowitz> Not good enough for ya, PUNK?	Mar 12 01:56
schestowitz	<schestowitz> http://news.opensuse.org/2009/03/10… SUSE fail	Mar 12 01:56
schestowitz	<schestowitz> Maybe SUSE was moved to Mono.NET or something at Novell’s behest	Mar 12 01:56
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balzac	Roy, the only thing you can do about that is to call out the imposter in the same venue.	Mar 12 02:56
balzac	That’s really not cool.	Mar 12 02:56
balzac	It’s a good thing freenode lets you register your nick	Mar 12 02:56
balzac	That kind of bullsht happens to noam chomsky all the time	Mar 12 02:57
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tessier	How’s the market for Linux people?	Mar 12 03:51
tessier	I’m still employed but not for long, I’m sure.	Mar 12 03:51
PeterFA	What I find so funny is that the newer the version of Linux or Free software, the faster it gets.	Mar 12 03:51
PeterFA	KDE4 is faster than 3, Linux 2.6.28 is faster than 2.6.26	Mar 12 03:51
balzac	lart	Mar 12 04:27
balzac	it’s solid i think, if you have some basic wed dev skills and sysadmin skills	Mar 12 04:28
balzac	.	Mar 12 04:44
PeterFA	Anyways, I’m an entrepranuer. How could I make money off of Linux and friends?	Mar 12 04:44
balzac	.	Mar 12 04:44
balzac	PeterFA: start with using it for your daily tasks	Mar 12 04:44
balzac	That’s the stage I’m at now, operating as a web developer	Mar 12 04:45
PeterFA	I’ve been doing that for the past few years	Mar 12 04:45
balzac	also some design	Mar 12 04:45
balzac	then…	Mar 12 04:45
balzac	work on your qualifications as a consultant	Mar 12 04:45
balzac	and broker software license deals	Mar 12 04:45
balzac	roll out a bunch of gnu/linux installations with support licenses	Mar 12 04:45
balzac	start first with a free version – it’s already better than windows	Mar 12 04:46
balzac	then suggest they buy a few support contracts – even one	Mar 12 04:46
balzac	even if they have 5 ubuntu or redhat installations, get them to buy one support contract at least	Mar 12 04:46
balzac	and broker those deals	Mar 12 04:46
balzac	I’m going to ask clients for a commission on savings, so I don’t even have to broker any deals	Mar 12 04:47
balzac	just block any new deals on proprietary software licenses	Mar 12 04:47
balzac	and show them the way to the support chatrooms on freenode	Mar 12 04:47
balzac	get a commission on IT budget savings, the client company doesn’t even have to make any new procurements to save and to pay me consulting fees	Mar 12 04:48
balzac	I call myself the proprietary software license reaper	Mar 12 04:48
balzac	enough of these archaic licenses!	Mar 12 04:49
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Omar87	Hello everyone	Mar 12 05:25
Omar87	And really, Asus are motherf*&%ers!!! (Sorry for that but it really pissed me off)	Mar 12 05:26
Omar87	When you browse the EeePC, you find this sentence at to right: “Asus recommends Windows for everyday computing.”!	Mar 12 05:28
Omar87	The bastards..!	Mar 12 05:28
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schestowitz	Morning.	Mar 12 09:07
schestowitz	tessier: it’s going well. 100k downloads of Fedora in one week.	Mar 12 09:08
MinceR	j0h0h0	Mar 12 09:15
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MinceR	http://news.slashdot.org/article.p…	Mar 12 09:38
schestowitz	They posion government too	Mar 12 09:41
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mib_tkc74k	hi	Mar 12 10:03
schestowitz	Hey there.	Mar 12 10:03
mib_tkc74k	why do you dislike Silverlight?	Mar 12 10:04
schestowitz	It’s about turning the Web to Microsoft Web	Mar 12 10:05
mib_tkc74k	how?	Mar 12 10:05
schestowitz	Media in particular	Mar 12 10:05
schestowitz	.NET also	Mar 12 10:05
mib_tkc74k	by forcing users to use silverlight?	Mar 12 10:05
mib_tkc74k	but applications are improving the user expirience	Mar 12 10:07
schestowitz	They are not	Mar 12 10:08
schestowitz	Only to Microsofters	Mar 12 10:08
schestowitz	It’s discriminatory by design	Mar 12 10:08
schestowitz	It’s also non-standard.	Mar 12 10:08
schestowitz	It’s binary Web.	Mar 12 10:08
mib_tkc74k	MS is just targeting for the biggest audience I guess	Mar 12 10:08
mib_tkc74k	and Silverlight works on Mac and Linux too	Mar 12 10:09
oiaohm	Really his a serious point mib_tkc74k MS codecs for moonlight don’t work on arm ppc…. processes ie x86 only.	Mar 12 10:09
oiaohm	So no it don’t really work on Mac or Linux it only partly works.	Mar 12 10:09
mib_tkc74k	mmokay	Mar 12 10:09
mib_tkc74k	perhaps version 3 will fix that	Mar 12 10:10
oiaohm	Nop	Mar 12 10:10
mib_tkc74k	and why not?	Mar 12 10:10
oiaohm	Codecs from microsoft are binary only.	Mar 12 10:10
oiaohm	Microsoft don’t make codecs for any other platforms.	Mar 12 10:10
oiaohm	Other than x86.	Mar 12 10:11
mib_tkc74k	then why do they claim it works on other platforms?	Mar 12 10:11
oiaohm	They are claiming OS as a platform leaving out cpu type.	Mar 12 10:11
oiaohm	arm is required so it works in mobile phones and some cheaper netbooks on the table.	Mar 12 10:11
mib_tkc74k	what is ‘arm’?	Mar 12 10:12
oiaohm	Type of processor chip mib_tkc74k	Mar 12 10:12
mib_tkc74k	okay thnx	Mar 12 10:12
oiaohm	That uses way different instruction set to x86 and is very power effective.	Mar 12 10:13
oiaohm	Yes there is a dell laptop with a x86 processor for windows and an arm processor for Linux that will not run moonlight either.	Mar 12 10:13
oiaohm	Linux mode the laptop gets almost 12 hours runtime compared to 4 hours on the windows ie the difference between arm and x86 is massive in power usage.	Mar 12 10:14
oiaohm	Now the problem with locking to a CPU type is the most power effective chip designs that may be created you might to be able to use because of what MS and other do.	Mar 12 10:15
oiaohm	mib_tkc74k: do you not want a laptop that can run for 12 hours straight under load?	Mar 12 10:16
mib_tkc74k	we’ve got desktops for that.. and my netbook does 6 hours now	Mar 12 10:16
oiaohm	Arm conversion that netbook most likely could do at least 18 hours.	Mar 12 10:17
mib_tkc74k	awesome	Mar 12 10:18
oiaohm	Remember batteries are heavy.	Mar 12 10:18
oiaohm	Windows desktop OS’s don’t run on ARM.	Mar 12 10:18
oiaohm	Most windows software don’t run on ARM either.	Mar 12 10:18
oiaohm	See the problem here lots of people are locked into x86 by there applications and operating system.	Mar 12 10:19
oiaohm	The hidden value of Open Source.	Mar 12 10:20
mib_tkc74k	because everybody else uses it..	Mar 12 10:20
oiaohm	Go backwards.	Mar 12 10:20
oiaohm	At the start of computing everyone was using different processor types.	Mar 12 10:20
oiaohm	People have allowed this to happen to them.	Mar 12 10:21
oiaohm	Everybody using something is a poor argument.	Mar 12 10:22
oiaohm	Thinking people like me don’t use Windows because my job does not require it. To be correct somethings I do cannot be done well on windows.	Mar 12 10:23
mib_tkc74k	that depends on your job I guess	Mar 12 10:23
mib_tkc74k	anyway, lunchtime.. bye!	Mar 12 10:24
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oiaohm	schestowitz: MS defenders are too simple to break.	Mar 12 10:25
schestowitz	Yes, I know.	Mar 12 10:33
schestowitz	Silver Lie is not being adopted, so they worry	Mar 12 10:34
schestowitz	Microsoft bribes businesses to adopt some and then makes noise about it (PR). Adobe has said this (Independent article, I thin)	Mar 12 10:35
schestowitz	*think	Mar 12 10:35
MinceR	adobe would be the last entity i’d ask about this :>	Mar 12 10:40
schestowitz	Alobby	Mar 12 10:41
oiaohm	Adobe can be as bad as Microsoft.	Mar 12 10:42
schestowitz	Atheist Life vs Religious Life < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaO… >	Mar 12 11:02
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oiaohm	Hmm buddist really dis argree with most of what he is saying.	Mar 12 11:47
oiaohm	Ie that is only Atheist that believe that.	Mar 12 11:47
Eruaran	hello	Mar 12 11:49
oiaohm	Hi Eruaran	Mar 12 11:50
Eruaran	Any interesting developments ?	Mar 12 11:50
oiaohm	Other than a person trying to make moonlight sound positive not much.	Mar 12 11:51
Eruaran	I used to suggest they go get a job at Redmond	Mar 12 11:52
Eruaran	But I don’t think Redmond is hiring anymore	Mar 12 11:52
schestowitz	Hehe.	Mar 12 11:52
schestowitz	They cut wages too, so people will find a more ethical job	Mar 12 11:52
schestowitz	It’s important to remember how many jobs Microsoft destroyes	Mar 12 11:53
schestowitz	*yed	Mar 12 11:53
Eruaran	yes	Mar 12 11:53
schestowitz	And how many jobs will be created once it’s being ‘Unisysed’	Mar 12 11:53
Eruaran	A customer came in today asking for a netbook with a ssd and linux	Mar 12 11:54
Eruaran	we found they are thin on the ground	Mar 12 11:54
oiaohm	So they are.	Mar 12 11:54
oiaohm	I am having more companies asking me about software cost cutting.	Mar 12 11:55
oiaohm	Good for business really.	Mar 12 11:55
Eruaran	So, the articles announcing victory for XP based on real demand are false… the reality is the customers who want them cant get them	Mar 12 11:55
Eruaran	The only Asus models available with Linux are the original 7″ ones	Mar 12 11:56
Eruaran	The rest are Windows	Mar 12 11:56
schestowitz	Eruaran: the US/AU is not ‘world’	Mar 12 11:57
schestowitz	The Linux sub-notebooks are big in the EU	Mar 12 11:57
Eruaran	So, this guy is going to buy one of the Atom based ones with a SSD, pay the Windows tax and he wants us to install eeebuntu on it for him	Mar 12 11:57
schestowitz	About 40% market share from what I’ve read	Mar 12 11:57
Eruaran	What Im saying is there is a concerted effort here to make sure supply is non-existant	Mar 12 11:58
schestowitz	Eruaran: ASUS told out	Mar 12 11:58
schestowitz	It said so	Mar 12 11:58
schestowitz	Now it received payments from Microsoft to advertise Winodows	Mar 12 11:58
schestowitz	Omar showed this earlier	Mar 12 11:58
schestowitz	They fell for the “OEM recommends” scam too	Mar 12 11:58
Eruaran	I believe Microsoft gave them Windows XP gratis	Mar 12 11:58
schestowitz	yes	Mar 12 11:58
schestowitz	But there’s more	Mar 12 11:58
oiaohm	MS gave them XP gratis on the idea at a later date with windows 7 they will be able to lift the price.	Mar 12 11:59
oiaohm	ie crush Linux move.	Mar 12 11:59
oiaohm	Somehow I don’t think its working.	Mar 12 11:59
Eruaran	Windows 7 “Starter Edition” = Fail.	Mar 12 11:59
Eruaran	The irony here is that our customers at least haven’t stopped using Linux	Mar 12 11:59
Eruaran	The installed base simply becomes invisible again while Linux users buy netbooks with XP on them, only to install Linux when they get home	Mar 12 12:00
schestowitz	Eruaran: sadly for Microsoft, Linuc can’t due	Mar 12 12:00
schestowitz	Microsoft is used to strangulation tactics being possible	Mar 12 12:00
schestowitz	I.e. spend billions jut ensuring the competition can’t make revenue and then starves	Mar 12 12:01
schestowitz	Then the prices can be inflated again	Mar 12 12:01
Eruaran	yes	Mar 12 12:01
schestowitz	it’s a deficientcy in the market	Mar 12 12:01
oiaohm	Linux is not something you can stave out.	Mar 12 12:01
schestowitz	The way it’s set up	Mar 12 12:01
schestowitz	*deficiency	Mar 12 12:01
oiaohm	Its been staved for its complete existance.	Mar 12 12:01
oiaohm	So Linux is 100 percent use to operating that way.	Mar 12 12:01
Eruaran	Our sales figures are probably 99% Windows XP	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	The only one starving now is Microsoft	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	And it’s entering debt	Mar 12 12:02
Eruaran	The reality of the installed base we work with is vastly different though	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	It’ll owe money to bank	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	*banks	Mar 12 12:02
Eruaran	For example	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	And what’s the assurance	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	What does Microsoft tell the bank?	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	“Look, we’ll be profitable and pay back because……..?”	Mar 12 12:02
Eruaran	A recent netbook customer purchased an XP netbook… but we know he installed Ubuntu on it	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	Because Vista has a new version?	Mar 12 12:02
schestowitz	Because XBox360 isn’t sold (at a loss) in the tough economy?	Mar 12 12:03
schestowitz	because Windows Mobile is dying?	Mar 12 12:03
schestowitz	because the price of Windows sinks to $5?	Mar 12 12:03
Eruaran	A guy who came in yesterday looking at Linux Mint took a disk home and installed it on his system last night… he came in and told me today and chatted about it	Mar 12 12:03
schestowitz	Because SAAS is hurting Office?	Mar 12 12:03
schestowitz	Eruaran: cool.	Mar 12 12:03
oiaohm	That is the other thing Eruaran Linux guys are not hidding what they were doing any more.	Mar 12 12:03
Eruaran	Out of these the only sale we have on the books that mentions Linux is a Fujitsu a1110 which is being sold as a dual boot XP/Ubuntu	Mar 12 12:04
oiaohm	Asus has splashtop that is not counted in Linux numbers	Mar 12 12:04
Eruaran	The customer requested this setup saying, “I’ve got friends who are using it (Ubuntu)”	Mar 12 12:04
schestowitz	oiaohm: what #s?	Mar 12 12:05
Eruaran	The installed base of Linux users is a vastly different picture compared to anyone’s official sales figures	Mar 12 12:05
schestowitz	Who cares about numbers?	Mar 12 12:05
schestowitz	People with shareholders do	Mar 12 12:05
schestowitz	Marketers	Mar 12 12:05
oiaohm	Exactly schestowitz	Mar 12 12:05
schestowitz	If Linux quietly maintains 7% on the desktop (places like Brazil), do you mind that people won’t know it?	Mar 12 12:05
oiaohm	If MS shareholders see bad numbers how long before they leave the sinking ship and make it sink faster.	Mar 12 12:06
schestowitz	ballmer ranks Linux above Apple	Mar 12 12:06
schestowitz	And Apple market cap is huge	Mar 12 12:06
schestowitz	What does that tell you about MS’ intelligence reports?	Mar 12 12:06
oiaohm	Apple is not a threat to MS.	Mar 12 12:06
oiaohm	Never will be at the rate they are going.	Mar 12 12:06
schestowitz	Yes, I know	Mar 12 12:06
oiaohm	The bound to hardware bit limits Apples threat.	Mar 12 12:06
schestowitz	They target rich families	Mar 12 12:06
schestowitz	For iPhone ($1000+), MacBooks, etc.	Mar 12 12:07
schestowitz	Apple can’t sustain this model around the world	Mar 12 12:07
oiaohm	MS bound to x86 is one of MS weak points.	Mar 12 12:07
schestowitz	And Mac OS X won’t run on much hardware	Mar 12 12:07
oiaohm	That should be around until at least 2012	Mar 12 12:07
schestowitz	Not even if it were ‘opened’	Mar 12 12:07
schestowitz	[to other PCs]	Mar 12 12:07
schestowitz	Primitive BSD	Mar 12 12:07
oiaohm	Apple uses cpus	Mar 12 12:07
schestowitz	But they have CUPS for the rest of those devices..	Mar 12 12:08
oiaohm	cups for printer drivrs.	Mar 12 12:08
schestowitz	oiaohm: beat me to it	Mar 12 12:08
schestowitz	ARM will grow?	Mar 12 12:08
oiaohm	Had to hapen but my english went to hell.	Mar 12 12:08
schestowitz	Seen the reports about it?	Mar 12 12:08
oiaohm	ARM most likely will grow.	Mar 12 12:08
oiaohm	ARM is also not like x86. There are lots of different ARM processor makers.	Mar 12 12:09
oiaohm	Including intel and amd.	Mar 12 12:09
schestowitz	here’s one that I found 1 hour ago: http://blog.laptopmag.com/analyst-arm-pow…	Mar 12 12:09
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schestowitz	“Intel’s Atom processor has some fierce competition coming from ARM, if you believe Information Network President Robert Castellano. According to the EE Times, Castellano says that ARM based processors will hold 55 percent of the netbook market by 2012.”	Mar 12 12:09
jose	hey	Mar 12 12:09
schestowitz	Hey, jose	Mar 12 12:09
jose	check something interesting	Mar 12 12:09
jose	http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_st…	Mar 12 12:09
oiaohm	Atom is still stuck with a instruction set that does not suit being power effective.	Mar 12 12:10
jose	not sure if kodak is being paid for that .. or maybe there is a project tech swich	Mar 12 12:10
jose	or maybe i made a mistake	Mar 12 12:10
Eruaran	ARM is cheaper and more efficient	Mar 12 12:10
schestowitz	oiaohm: of course	Mar 12 12:10
schestowitz	jose: Kodak and Mirosoft got together	Mar 12 12:11
schestowitz	Bill Foundry put tons of money in Kodak last month	Mar 12 12:11
jose	yeah, but the project seems 100% qt	Mar 12 12:11
schestowitz	Some said it was for DRM	Mar 12 12:11
schestowitz	Or HD	Mar 12 12:11
jose	the ad is for mono.. doesn’t even mention qt	Mar 12 12:11
Eruaran	And manufacturers certainly wont care about offending Intel if they are losing market share to new ARM based competitors who have none of that baggage	Mar 12 12:11
schestowitz	Let me see…..	Mar 12 12:11
schestowitz	Wow, jose	Mar 12 12:13
oiaohm	Yep the project is qt jose. Its a competior to sane.	Mar 12 12:13
schestowitz	Good find	Mar 12 12:13
schestowitz	I wondered about some Microsoft-Kodak connections	Mar 12 12:13
schestowitz	Can I reproduce your comment in full in BN?	Mar 12 12:13
jose	this looks like the main project page	Mar 12 12:13
jose	http://sourceforge.net/proj…	Mar 12 12:13
oiaohm	http://www.twain.org/	Mar 12 12:13
jose	notice it mentions qt	Mar 12 12:13
oiaohm	Read what twain 2.0 is jose then it makes perfect sence.	Mar 12 12:14
jose	also, i dug inside and found everything to suggest it was qt with zero mono	Mar 12 12:14
jose	twain comes from ms standard on windows for scanners and such right	Mar 12 12:14
oiaohm	Twian 2.0 is cross platform Linux and Mac including.	Mar 12 12:14
oiaohm	Not just MS anymore.	Mar 12 12:14
jose	sure and what does that have to do with this	Mar 12 12:14
oiaohm	scantwain is the cross platform refrence thing.	Mar 12 12:15
oiaohm	That you test your drivers against.	Mar 12 12:15
jose	keep going	Mar 12 12:15
oiaohm	Ok I will have to cover a little history so you know what happened to twain.	Mar 12 12:16
jose	>> the availability of a robust, open source and production quality scanning application for use on the LINUX Operating System called ScanTWAIN.	Mar 12 12:16
Eruaran	Qt 3.x ?	Mar 12 12:16
jose	it’s a project with old roots.. back to 2005 apparently	Mar 12 12:17
oiaohm	That is correct.	Mar 12 12:17
jose	what i want to know is why is the project qt-ish yet the press release mentions mono?	Mar 12 12:17
jose	did i or did someone make a mistake somewhere	Mar 12 12:17
Eruaran	Maybe it has been infiltrated by mono drones	Mar 12 12:17
jose	maybe i’m looking at the wrong project or maybe it was misnamed	Mar 12 12:17
jose	download it	Mar 12 12:18
jose	look inside	Mar 12 12:18
jose	it’s not that large	Mar 12 12:18
jose	10 – 20 cpp and h files	Mar 12 12:18
jose	is the bulk of it	Mar 12 12:18
jose	look inside them	Mar 12 12:18
jose	there is even a .kdevelop file	Mar 12 12:18
jose	did not see anything that might look like mono (i admit i might not recognize it if i did)	Mar 12 12:19
oiaohm	You are looking at the front end not the driver.	Mar 12 12:19
oiaohm	Yes evil of evil. One driver everywhere.	Mar 12 12:19
jose	can you look at the press release and point out the problem? .. let me look again	Mar 12 12:19
jose	>>	Mar 12 12:19
jose	LINUX distributions which are fully supported (user interface requires Mono Version 1.26 or higher):	Mar 12 12:19
jose	>> “Kodak is pleased to offer new image scanning capabilities and solutions via ScanTWAIN and our TWAIN 2.0 data source, or driver, for LINUX Operating Systems.”	Mar 12 12:20
oiaohm	Scantwain don’t include the drivers for the scanners.	Mar 12 12:20
jose	that’s the name of the project scantwain	Mar 12 12:20
oiaohm	scantwain is a front end.	Mar 12 12:21
jose	the press release says mono is needed for the gui	Mar 12 12:21
jose	i go and look at project by that name and it has gui of qt	Mar 12 12:21
oiaohm	Read more carefully it is after supported drivers.	Mar 12 12:21
jose	why don’t you quote	Mar 12 12:22
oiaohm	Twain drivers can open up there own user interface.	Mar 12 12:22
jose	i haven’t slept much (running on 2 hrs and past due)	Mar 12 12:22
jose	but i don’t see the mistake i might have made	Mar 12 12:22
oiaohm	So you have Scantwain what is the interface to use the driver.	Mar 12 12:22
oiaohm	And the driver that also can put up a interface.	Mar 12 12:22
oiaohm	So you need graphical interface support for both.	Mar 12 12:23
oiaohm	Yes Twain driver design insanity.	Mar 12 12:23
jose	let me ask this.. how would i get to pop up the mono gui?	Mar 12 12:24
jose	through sane? how exactly?	Mar 12 12:24
jose	is it a kodak propri interface?	Mar 12 12:24
jose	oiaohm, do you not see what i mean? why i can’t find any mono anywhere?	Mar 12 12:25
jose	>> The ScanTWAIN scanning application is available via the SourceForge website and is issued under GPL, Gnu Public License, version 2.	Mar 12 12:25