11.20.09

Gemini version available ♊︎

Mono: Deaf to the Facts

Posted in GNU/Linux, Microsoft, Mono, Novell, OpenSUSE, Patents, Red Hat, Ubuntu at 8:10 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Face - insane

Summary: Neither the Mono project nor particular distributions pay attention to Microsoft’s simple stance

THIS morning we wrote about the GIMP being removed by Canonical, as expected. It may seem unimportant, but it is still being covered for a variety of reasons, not just the Mono problem it is causing. The GIMP is not without flaws and as this new article shows, it is not the only option, either. But the reasoning provided by Canonical (a former Microsoft employee to be more specific) are unconvincing. We never “bought” the rationale put forth and those who defended the move tend to be proponents of Mono such as the following blogger who writes:

You may have started to hear rumors that The GIMP and F-Spot aren’t safe for inclusion in 10.04 Lucid Lynx. “What?!?” you say. “The GIMP has been in every GNOME distribution since GNOME existed (sinceGNOME is written to GTK, which stands for the GIMP ToolKit).” Well, well. Good idea. Not likely to move forward.

Regarding a similar misstep from Fedora, there is a whole new article about it now:

Mono sinks its claws into Fedora

[...]

In June this year, the Fedora project announced that it had decided to get rid of Tomboy, a note-taking application dependent on Mono and replace it with Gnote, a port of Tomboy in C++/Gtkmm released by former Novell developer Hubert Figuiere.

Earlier this year, when Microsoft made what appeared to be a promise not to sue those who implemented the ECMA-covered parts of .NET, de Icaza admitted that he had been developing parts of .NET which were not covered by the specification, even though he had been developing Mono for nearly eight years.

Those terms from Microsoft are not reasonable, says the Free Software Foundation (FSF). Will this “Monomania” [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] ever end? OpenSUSE has the same problem, but it does not pay attention. Many of its developers are loyal to their paycheck from Microsoft’s Novell.

“There is a substantive effort in open source to bring such an implementation of .Net to market, known as Mono and being driven by Novell, and one of the attributes of the agreement we made with Novell is that the intellectual property associated with that is available to Novell customers.”

Bob Muglia, Microsoft President

Share in other sites/networks: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Reddit
  • email

Decor ᶃ Gemini Space

Below is a Web proxy. We recommend getting a Gemini client/browser.

Black/white/grey bullet button This post is also available in Gemini over at this address (requires a Gemini client/browser to open).

Decor ✐ Cross-references

Black/white/grey bullet button Pages that cross-reference this one, if any exist, are listed below or will be listed below over time.

Decor ▢ Respond and Discuss

Black/white/grey bullet button If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

12 Comments

  1. williami said,

    November 21, 2009 at 12:08 am

    Gravatar

    Well, Mandrivia (I think) and GNewSense have arelady removed mono, maybe Red Hat/Fedora too with a little more friendly pressure. Getting rid of Mono in Ubuntu is a no go, and don’t even bother trying to get OpenSUSE to remove Mono in Linux.

    finalzone Reply:

    Red Hat does not include any Mono package on any Enterprise version. In Fedora case, it will be a matter of time and someone made a proposal to remove F-Spot from default installation. I think Solang was immature at that time.

    Needs Sunlight Reply:

    Red Hat does not include any Mono package … yet.

    I have confidence in Red Hat in general, the management there has made good decisions often.

    However, Fedora is to Red Hat what testing and stable are to Debian. Fedora is showing signs of Microsoft style cognitive dissonance. Take the recent package exploit that was not only intentionally added, but made it through testing and into the release. Granted it was fixed quickly after it was brought into the daylight by a user, but it is a sign of some very, very serious wrong doing that someone even tried to put it in the distro.

    Just because a Microsofter ‘volunteers’ to help doesn’t mean they are ever going to help. That belief would be inexcusably naive to the point of criminal negligence.
    It looks like it works for distros like Debian and Ubuntu just as well as for conferences:
    http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/plex_2456.pdf

    Cleaning up Debian and Ubuntu now will save a lot of cost later.

    “All that is required for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.”
    “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. “

    finalzone Reply:

    “However, Fedora is to Red Hat what testing and stable are to Debian. Fedora is showing signs of Microsoft style cognitive dissonance. Take the recent package exploit that was not only intentionally added, but made it through testing and into the release. Granted it was fixed quickly after it was brought into the daylight by a user, but it is a sign of some very, very serious wrong doing that someone even tried to put it in the distro.”

    I doubt it was intentional. What happened was that change was included as feature but it was invisible due the fact test version of Fedora does not enable –>signed keys<– by default. I don't see it as problem due to fact you still need root password when you install unsigned package or package outside trusted repositories (in this case Fedora repository), and remote user control is disabled by default. What is probably missing is a dialogue that let decide user to keep authentication or not. I can tell you that having testing the case when the whole topic started.

    Should you have multiple users, then it is the job of administrator to make sure to set rules.

    finalzone Reply:

    “However, Fedora is to Red Hat what testing and stable are to Debian.”

    Depend because some Fedora features are coming from Red Hat Enterprise Linux like Power Management. By that logic, Red Hat Enterprise can be a test bed for Fedora and similar case can be also apply for Ubuntu->Debian. =)

    “Fedora is showing signs of Microsoft style cognitive dissonance. ”

    It is a wrong assumption because the case was related to signed package from trusted repository (in this case Fedora or added repository on which you have already imported key). You still need root password when you install unsigned packages or those outside trusted repositories.

    “Take the recent package exploit that was not only intentionally added, but made it through testing and into the release.”

    Actually it is not an exploit, that feature was available on Fedora 12 Beta that has unsigned package by default. As expected the policy from PackageKit still requires root password for that scenario. For example, I still need root password to install RPM Fusion repository package and after I chose to import GPG Key from that repository for the first time.

    The policy from Packagekit is not that bad some people make out to be, it is very similar to Ubuntu. It only needs to be modified for multiple users case.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    There are other worthy substitutes for F-Spot.

    finalzone Reply:

    Oh yeah, I forgot about gThumb which I daily use.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Gwenview is not an editor, but it is a wonderful image manager that I use.

    your_friend Reply:

    It is difficult to have a rational discussion about alternatives with mono people who use Windows as a primary desktop. Their minds are warped by the limits of their chosen platform which they seek to impose on free software. Their problems are ignorance of the Unix way and arrogance which prevents them from discovering their error. Arguments about “simplicity,” “good enough” and “market share” only make sense in limited non free software contexts but this is all they know. Leagal arguments, of course, are lost on people who routinely and thoughtlessly click through EULAs and install leet cracked software.

    The article link to Photoshop alternatives on Windows was a depressing read that exemplifies the ignorance problem. The author rightly praises GIMP but is so terribly constrained by Windows that workarounds are presented as virtues. They sort of understand the idea of having many applications where each does something specific very well and present choices of applications this way. There are very few choices, however, and none of them communicate very well. All of them have to live within Windows’ pathetic multitasking limitations. The author understands that GIMP is an excellent image manipulation program but also expects it to be a window manager, a file manager, a snapshot tool, a quick and dirty red eye removal tools, a photo organizer and everything else all at once. This is why they quickly redo the interface to a single large screen with child windows constrained to the “main” window. Non free software will always awkward be this way because one program can’t trust another for anything and Windows may never develop a decent multipaged GUI. The author complains about interface awkwardness that springs from this confusion of purpose and vaguely hints that Mac does things differently but he has no real GUI clue. Windows can only handle three or four applications before the interface and subsystems are overwhelmed. Users seek to put all of their tools into large containers boxes which they carefully take out three or four at a time. What a limiting mess.

    Free software users are spoiled with a fantastic array of excellent tools and a much better subsystem. I’m happily writing this with a load no Microsoft OS could deal with, 50 browser tabs, 9 virtual desktops easily accessed by edge flipping, pidgin, kontact, several terminals and other odds and ends. I could dedicate another dozen desktops for serious imaging work, which requires interaction between several tools like web browsers and html editors to get the desired, final result. File drag and drop works across almost all of my tools and I could make my image occupy as many desktops as I want. Microsoft’s task bar presentation would be unusable with 1/10th the load and my computer would be be effectively frozen on the same hardware, an 800 MHz processor, 512 MB RAM and 1024×768 screen. Throwing ten times the computer at Windows might double my screen real estate but it won’t solve the task bar, performance and stability problems. Free software gives me place keeping, stability and multitasking that real work requires.

    The BN replacement page is a good starting point but the free software way is not about replacement so much as it is about coexistence, exploration and organic growth. The useful links section on the Debian GIMP package page starts to give an idea of the tools you can get on GNU/Linux. These lead to the wickedly powerful nip, ImageMagick, and more pedestrian gpaint and kolourpaint. Each of those pages has links to other similar tools and specialty tools, like viewers, and search tools are quickly encountered. The same path of exploration is open to all of the mono replacement software. Software grows like that when you have freedom. It is a shame that Microsoft has ported exclusivity to free software with Mono and it is perverse that the only solution to legal threats is avoidance and exclusion.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    I was hesitant in linking to that page with “free’ (gratis) image editors, but it was new.

    your_friend Reply:

    No, thanks, it was a great link because is easy to forget what a barren and difficult wasteland Windows is. The author touts a few intersting features, like facial recognition and automatic content organization, but the overall picture is bleak. If a user were to organize their pictures with this nifty feature, for example, would any other program or human be able to access the organized information? Will the application be cheap and gratis forever or will the software owner hold your pictures hostage with some kind of iPod like data structure? Pictures are probably the most important common thing on people’s computers, more important than email, work documents and contact information, yet look at what’s there for the user.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Memorable essay on lock-in/DRM:

    My Family Photos – and ODF

    “I was staying with my parents a few years ago, and looking through a shoe box of old family photos. It was great, I was really enjoying them – until it occurred to me most of the photos were singletons. That is, they were the only copies. On earth. And of at least one individual from my family’s past, there were only two or three photographs in existence. Yipes.

    “A shoe box, I thought. How archaic, right? What if there were a flood, or heaven forbid, a fire? These are photographs I want to share with my family, and to pass along for generations. I want my children to know their history. And their children and their children.

    “So I did what any good son would do, I convinced my parents to let me abscond with the box, I returned home, and I scanned the photos (and returned the box).”

    http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/microsoft_vista_microsoft_office_and

DecorWhat Else is New


  1. [Meme] EPO Legal Sophistry and Double Dipping

    An imaginary EPO intercept of Administrative Council discussions in June 2013...



  2. Links 21/10/2021: PostgreSQL JDBC 42.3.0 and Maui Report

    Links for the day



  3. [Meme] [Teaser] “Judge a Person Both by His Friends and Enemies”

    Fervent supporters of Team Battistelli or Team Campinos (a dark EPO era) are showing their allegiances; WIPO and EPO have abused staff similarly over the past decade or so



  4. 'Cluster-Voting' in the European Patent Office/Organisation (When a Country With 1.9 Million Citizens Has the Same Voting Power as a Country With 83.1 Million Citizens)

    Today we examine who has been running the Finnish patent office and has moreover voted in the EPO during the ballot on unlawful "Strike Regulations"; they voted in favour of manifestly illegal rules and for 8.5 years after that (including last Wednesday) they continued to back a shady regime which undermines the EPO's mission statement



  5. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XVIII: Helsinki's Accord

    The Finnish outpost has long been strategic to the EPO because it can help control the vote of four or more nations; evidence suggests this has not changed



  6. [Meme] Living as a Human Resource, Working for Despots

    The EPO has become a truly awful place/employer to work for; salary is 2,000 euros for some (despite workplace stress, sometimes relocation to a foreign country)



  7. Links 20/10/2021: New Redcore Linux and Hospital Adoption of GNU Health

    Links for the day



  8. IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, October 19, 2021

    IRC logs for Tuesday, October 19, 2021



  9. Links 19/10/2021: Karanbir Singh Leaves CentOS Board, GPL Violations at Vizio

    Links for the day



  10. [Meme] Giving the Knee

    The 'knee' champion Kratochvìl and 'kneel' champion Erlingsdóttir are simply crushing the law; they’re ignoring the trouble of EPO staff and abuses of the Office, facilitated by the Council itself (i.e. facilitated by themselves)



  11. Josef Kratochvìl Rewarded Again for Covering Up EPO Corruption and the EPO Bribes the Press for Lies Whilst Also Lying About Its Colossal Privacy Violations

    Corrupt officials and officials who actively enable the crimes still control the Office and also the body which was supposed to oversee it; it's pretty evident and clear judging by this week's press statements at the EPO's official Web site



  12. [Meme] Sorry, Wrong Country (Or: Slovenia isn't Great Britain)

    Team UPC is trying to go ahead with a total hoax which a high-level European court would certainly put an end to (if or when a referral is initiated)



  13. How Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Norway and Sweden Voted on Patently Unlawful Regulations at the EPO

    We look back and examine what happened 8 years ago when oppressed staff was subjected to unlawful new “regulations” (long enjoyed by António Campinos, the current EPO autocrat)



  14. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XVII: The Non-Monolithic Nordic Bloc

    We start our investigation of how countries in northern Europe ended up voting on the unlawful “Strike Regulations” at the EPO and why



  15. Proof That Windows “11” is a Hoax

    Guest post by Ryan, reprinted with permission



  16. Firefox Becomes as Morally Reprehensible as Apple, Facebook, or Uber

    Guest post by Ryan, reprinted with permission



  17. Links 19/10/2021: GNU dbm 1.22 and Godot 3.4 RC 1

    Links for the day



  18. [Meme] [Teaser] GitHub an Expensive and Dangerous Trap (Also: Misogyny Hub)

    The ongoing Microsoft GitHub exposé will give people compelling reasons to avoid GitHub, which is basically just a subsidised (at a loss) trap



  19. Norway Should Have Voted Against Benoît Battistelli's Illegal (Anti-)'Strike Regulations' at the European Patent Office

    Benoît Battistelli‘s EPO faced no real and potent opposition from Norwegian delegates, who chose to abstain from the vote on the notorious and illegal so-called ‘Strike Regulations’ (they’re just an attack on strikes, an assault on basic rights of labourers)



  20. Links 19/10/2021: Sequoia PGP LGPL 2.0+, Open RAN Adoption

    Links for the day



  21. [Meme] [Teaser] Benoît Battistelli, King of Iceland

    Later today we shall see how the current deputy of the head of the EPO‘s overseeing body was in fact likely rewarded for her complicity in Benoît Battistelli‘s abuses against EPO staff, including staff from Iceland



  22. IRC Proceedings: Monday, October 18, 2021

    IRC logs for Monday, October 18, 2021



  23. Links 19/10/2021: MyGNUHealth 1.0.5 and Ubuntu 22.04 Now Developed

    Links for the day



  24. [Meme] [Teaser] Thrown Under the Bus

    Tomorrow we shall look at Danish enablers of unlawful EPO regulations, Jesper Kongstad and Anne Rejnhold Jørgensen



  25. The World Needs to Know What Many Austrians Already Know About Rude Liar, the Notorious 'Double-Dipper'

    Today we publish many translations (from German) about the Austrian double-dipper, who already became the subject of unfavourable press coverage in his home country; he’s partly responsible for crushing fundamental rights at the EPO under Benoît Battistelli‘s regime



  26. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XVI: The Demise of the Austrian Double-Dipper

    Friedrich ‘Rude Liar’ Rödler is notorious in the eyes of EPO staff, whom he was slandering and scandalising for ages while he himself was the real scandal



  27. Links 18/10/2021: Porteus Kiosk 5.3 and Ventoy 1.0.55

    Links for the day



  28. [Meme] [Teaser] More to Life Than Patents

    Greedy sociopaths oughtn’t be put in charge of patent offices; this is what’s dooming the EPO in recent years (all they think about is money



  29. Microsoft GitHub Exposé — Part II — The Campaign Against GPL Compliance and War on Copyleft Enforcement

    Microsoft contemplated buying GitHub 7.5 years ago; the goal wasn’t to actually support “Open Source” but to crush it from the inside and that’s what Microsoft has been doing over the past 2.5 years (we have some details from the inside)



  30. Links 18/10/2021: Linux 5.15 RC6 and 7 New Stable Kernels

    Links for the day


RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

Recent Posts