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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 11th, 2008

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ZiggyFishgood morningJun 10 23:24
ZiggyFishSome nice stories in the daily Links todayJun 10 23:25
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fumanchu2175helloJun 11 02:20
ZiggyFishhelloJun 11 02:20
fumanchu2175Did you hear Novell is now part of the MS virtualization validation program?Jun 11 02:21
fumanchu2175This just shows what a bad company Novell is.Jun 11 02:21
ZiggyFishlolJun 11 02:21
fumanchu2175What part of community don't they understand?Jun 11 02:22
ZiggyFishthe community partJun 11 02:25
fumanchu2175yeah I guess so.Jun 11 02:25
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moparx  << you guys see this?Jun 11 02:33
ZiggyFishmoparx: must me a Microsoft employeeJun 11 02:44
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yuhongI am sure there are people in China who buy computers with Linux and then load them with a pirated copy of Windows.Jun 11 03:05
ZiggyFishyuhong: I'm sure their a people all over the world, how by a computer with Windows an put Linux on it (I know the is a least one in Australia)Jun 11 03:07
yuhongYes, I think so as well, but one is a problem for MS, and one isn't.Jun 11 03:09
moparxoh, if anyone is interested the Free Software Foundation opened their new online store todayJun 11 03:09
ZiggyFishyuhong: no, yours is about dick heads, mine is about educated peopleJun 11 03:09
yuhongHowever, considering the state of Linux on the desktop, people wiping them out and installing a pirated copy of Windows  should not be suprising.Jun 11 03:11
moparxwhat state? it works near flawlessly these daysJun 11 03:11
yuhongBut I am sure many people in China don't know that.Jun 11 03:12
yuhongSo your "dick head" comment is kind of right.Jun 11 03:13
moparxnot mine :pJun 11 03:13
yuhongI mean, I was taking about ZiggyFish's comment not moparx's.Jun 11 03:14
ZiggyFishyuhong: I don't agree, there is nothing wrong with the state of LinuxJun 11 03:14
ZiggyFishyuhong: the problems Linux has, has nothing to do with Linux, and more to do with the hardware manufacturesJun 11 03:15
yuhongYep, that is certainly a problem.Jun 11 03:15
moparx*nod*Jun 11 03:15
ZiggyFishyuhong: it's the only problemJun 11 03:15
yuhongProbably, but even if that is true, don't forget many people in China don't know that.Jun 11 03:16
yuhongThe reputation of Linux may be why people in China wipe them out and load them with Windows.Jun 11 03:17
moparxpeople tend to gravitate toward things they are most comfortable with.. it's human natureJun 11 03:17
moparxin that case windowsJun 11 03:18
ZiggyFishyuhong: your right, but many people around the world, know that once you get Linux running, it will run for centrysJun 11 03:18
yuhongYep, which in turn led MS to have all computers preloaded with Windows.Jun 11 03:18
yuhongI am sure they do.Jun 11 03:18
ZiggyFishyuhong: exactly, I get more done on a Linux machine than a windows operating systemJun 11 03:19
ZiggyFishyuhong: I assume you run Windows from your commentsJun 11 03:20
yuhongBut there are enough people in China doing this that MS decided to try to force all computers to have Windows preinstalled.Jun 11 03:20
yuhongI do.Jun 11 03:20
ZiggyFishand have had trouble getting linux to workJun 11 03:20
ZiggyFishyuhong: they did that to the rest of the worldJun 11 03:21
yuhongNo, I didn't have problems getting Linux to work, I once did a dual boot.Jun 11 03:21
yuhongBut I wiped Linux out for other reasons.Jun 11 03:22
ZiggyFishthe reason would be?Jun 11 03:22
yuhongLetJun 11 03:22
yuhongLet's set that aside.Jun 11 03:22
moparxWhat distro where you using if I may ask?Jun 11 03:22
ZiggyFishyuhong: why, maybe I can offer solutions to them problemsJun 11 03:22
yuhongUbuntu.Jun 11 03:22
moparxahJun 11 03:22
yuhongI once did get Linux working in a dual boot config.Jun 11 03:23
ZiggyFishand what happendJun 11 03:24
yuhongAnd it still worked fine just before I wiped it out.Jun 11 03:24
ZiggyFishso what didn't you like about itJun 11 03:24
yuhongI don't want to talk about it for now.Jun 11 03:24
yuhongI was considering getting it to run in a VM instead.Jun 11 03:25
yuhongBut because i had only a gig of RAM, and I was running Vista, I eventually removed it.Jun 11 03:26
yuhongBTW, I am neutral on the OS advocacy debateJun 11 03:26
yuhongOtherwise it ran perfectly fine.Jun 11 03:26
yuhongAnyway, can you estimate the precentage of people buying computers with Linux that wiped them out and loaded them with a pirated version of WIndows.Jun 11 03:27
moparxthe same could be asked the other way aroundJun 11 03:28
yuhongYes, I know, but the other way around is not a problem for MS, this way around is.Jun 11 03:29
ZiggyFishyuhong: who are you defendingJun 11 03:29
yuhongMS.Jun 11 03:29
yuhongHere.Jun 11 03:29
yuhongBecause I remember some people claiming that the reason MS did this was to prevent Linux from spreading.Jun 11 03:31
yuhongNow, I admit that might be a side effect.Jun 11 03:31
yuhongBut I just want you to consider this.Jun 11 03:31
ZiggyFishwell to answer your question (considering you have no references to your claim), I would say noneJun 11 03:32
yuhongI have some.Jun 11 03:33
ZiggyFishand they areJun 11 03:34
yuhongI don't claim exact percentages.Jun 11 03:34
yuhongBut I am sure they exist.Jun 11 03:34
ZiggyFishyuhong: show some referencesJun 11 03:35
yuhong 11 03:35
yuhong"In many cases, however, that preinstalled OS was Linux. PCs with Linux instead of Windows are significantly less expensive in China due to the cost of Windows licenses. But once the Linux-running desktops and laptops were unboxed, the open-source OS installation was typically nuked and replaced by an illegitimate copy of Windows."Jun 11 03:37
ZiggyFishThat's a big problem for Microsoft, because a large number of those OS-free boxes end up running counterfeit copies of Windows. The software giant has attempted to counter the problem in a number of ways, including a scaled-back version of Windows XP called the Starter Edition. It won a small victory in early 2006 when the Chinese government began requiring that all PCs sold in the country have a legitimate OS preinstalled.Jun 11 03:38
yuhongYep, that not only forced MS to do this.Jun 11 03:38
yuhongBut is no win for Linux.Jun 11 03:38
ZiggyFishbut no win for Microsoft eitherJun 11 03:38
yuhongNot much of a win, which is why MS was forced to do this.Jun 11 03:39
ZiggyFishalso the story is told by CEO Steve BallmerJun 11 03:39
ZiggyFish(and we all know what FUD he is capable of)Jun 11 03:39
yuhongI don't believe many of them, I am neutral on the OS advocacy debates.Jun 11 03:40
ZiggyFishbut you believe thisJun 11 03:40
yuhongIn other words, premoting Linux by preinstalling them on new PCs can backfire.Jun 11 03:41
yuhongI do for the reasons I mentioned.Jun 11 03:41
yuhongHe do have a point.Jun 11 03:41
yuhongAnd when it backfire in that way, MS is forced to do this.Jun 11 03:42
moparxthe end-user has the basic freedom to choose thier OS and install what ever they want regardless of the wishes or desires of either side of the fence. some people remove windows & install *nix or bsd others do the opposite. it is a just a fact of lifeJun 11 03:43
yuhongI know, only that particular case is a problem for MS.Jun 11 03:45
yuhongAnd when it backfires in that way, it isn't a win for Linux at all.Jun 11 03:46
yuhongWhere if the user did not do this, it is a win.Jun 11 03:46
yuhongOr even set up a dual boot, which I did once, as I said.Jun 11 03:47
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moparx:/Jun 11 03:49
moparxI felt like we were going around in circles thereJun 11 03:49
moparxanyway.. off to bed I go.Jun 11 03:50
ZiggyFishI still think that story is about FUD, rather than truthJun 11 03:55
ZiggyFishMicrosoft's antipiracy win: convincing China OEM to sell more Windows PCs is the head lineJun 11 03:56
schestowitz<moparx>, just got back. Thanks for the link (haven't seen it before).Jun 11 04:56
ZiggyFishschestowitz: another 10 expoits found in WindowsJun 11 05:27
schestowitzOnly 10? :-) They hide many under the rug, you know?Jun 11 05:28
ZiggyFishyeahJun 11 05:28
ZiggyFish 11 05:28
schestowitzOh, that's just patch Tuesday.Jun 11 05:29
ZiggyFishI don't know if these are the ones their talking about in that articleJun 11 05:30
ZiggyFishlet me get some links togetherJun 11 05:30
ZiggyFish , , , , 11 05:31
ZiggyFishoh and 11 05:32
schestowitzAll platform have flaws, but severity is the interesting aspect, as well as how much they hide.Jun 11 05:32
schestowitzMicrosoft has already acknowledged that it hides flaws for PR purposes (or 'security' purposes).Jun 11 05:33
ZiggyFishwell is (according to Security Focus), is a Design ErrorJun 11 05:33
schestowitz "Carl Icahn said Tuesday that Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) " can't compete" over the next five years if it doesn't acquire Yahoo Inc. (YHOO)."Jun 11 05:39
ZiggyFishThe hedge fund manager also accused Yahoo of "sinking to a new low" with a severance plan that's "a travesty."Jun 11 05:41
ZiggyFishIn response to a question from the audience, Icahn declined to comment on whether he is in contact with Microsoft.Jun 11 05:41
schestowitzOf course he is. Ballmer said last week that he's on speed dial, so to speak. Microsoft planned a proxy fight before it abruptly 'backed off'. Then again, a friend of mine reckons he's just an opportunist and a Microsoft shareholder.Jun 11 05:42
ZiggyFishyeah, I read that articleJun 11 05:44
ZiggyFishHP has launched a selection of PCs aimed to take touchscreen technology to the mainstream.Jun 11 05:45
ZiggyFishThe TouchSmart All-in-One allows users to work with photos, music, video, the internet and television by tapping or swiping the screen, according to HP, and will start at around €£660.Jun 11 05:45
ZiggyFishThe PCs will launch in 17 countries in July, including the UK.Jun 11 05:45
ZiggyFishThe PCs will start retailing at just €£50 more than its main competitor, the Apple's iMac, which do not have a touchscreen, but until now, has been perceived as pioneer in making manipulating digital media easier.Jun 11 05:45
schestowitzWill it offer the crippled version of XP (Vista)? Either way, there is not much to see here. Not many applications are touch-screen-aware in the sense that they can increase productivity. Touch screens have been around for ages. It's a gimmick.Jun 11 05:49
ZiggyFishLinux can already work with Touch screen. I would assume it's for phasing in windows 7.Jun 11 05:50
schestowitzSee, the problem is that Microsoft cannot offer more than a Vista+new name, so it's trying to pull old gimmicks for perceived added value. I think that early predictions of backlash are correct. Microsoft too is worried, which is why it's attacking rivals (yes, it does).Jun 11 05:52
ZiggyFishhave you seen this video 11 05:57
ZiggyFishLinux already has them featuresJun 11 05:59
schestowitzI saw this when it first made an appearance. The Linux capabilities are not demonstrated with a multi-million-dollar budget though. Here you have something similar to the Longhorn (due 2003) vapourware and limited Surface demo. It's all sort of staged. It's a marketing farce which Apple does pretty well as too.Jun 11 06:02
ZiggyFishyeahJun 11 06:16
ZiggyFishthere's a big game on tonight, State of Origin (NRL). it's like the the super bowl, but bigger and betterJun 11 06:24
schestowitzI don't get this no-s*-Sherlock headline: Analysts: Vista's bad rep will hurt adoption ( http://blog.seattlepi.nwsourc...)Jun 11 06:26
schestowitzAnd watch the first comment here: 11 06:27
ZiggyFishnice comment, espeically "Seriously, can we stop printing every word that this man speaks? He's way past his prime."Jun 11 06:31
schestowitzBill Gates: "We will never make a 32-bit operating system."Jun 11 06:33
ZiggyFishthey never didJun 11 06:33
ZiggyFishschestowitz: well they didn't make it them self anywayJun 11 06:34
schestowitzI guess it's back to 16-bit and 640KB of RAM. Vista would cope. :-)Jun 11 06:34
schestowitzPulling another sysinternals: "With his new job at Microsoft, he simply doesn't have time to keep up with the Castlecops work, he said in an interview on Tuesday. "I won't be able to ensure the same kind of support that I was able to provide in the past," he said. "I won't be able to do it justice." 11 06:35
ZiggyFishit doesn't cope with 6.40 GB of ram, how on earth can it cope with 640KB ( I know Gates said once that we will never need more than 640KB of RAM)Jun 11 06:36
schestowitzCheck out new comment at: It seems like Ubuntu become Mono dependent, i.e. Microsoft reliant.Jun 11 06:40
ZiggyFishit's F-Spot that is the problemJun 11 06:41
schestowitzWhy would it seem as though ubuntu-desktop depends /on/ it?Jun 11 06:42
ZiggyFishbecause it's installed as default. Ubuntu desktop is just a meta package for all default applicationsJun 11 06:43
ZiggyFishinfact you can install the kubuntu-desktop package from ubuntuJun 11 06:43
ZiggyFishand it will install the KDM, KDE and themes assoicated with kubuntuJun 11 06:44
schestowitzOr kde-desktopJun 11 06:44
ZiggyFishubuntu doesn't have that packageJun 11 06:45
ZiggyFishlet me find if kubuntu depends on monoJun 11 06:46
ZiggyFishkubuntu depends on mono, but only the kde-icons-mono packageJun 11 06:49
schestowitzIn older versions, kde-desktop definitely existed in the repos. It's interesting to see contact with mono.Jun 11 06:51
ZiggyFishwhat would be nice is to see an independent study into mono and what exactly is wrong with it (which patents exist)Jun 11 06:59
schestowitzOT: how do you know a publication hates Kroes? Use of nasty words like "snub" and "punish", or simply a chose of image. Just found: 11 07:00
schestowitzYes, I mentioned this to PJ, but it would take a lot of time to do this. All I know based on the SFLC is that moonlight is bad and mono probably even worse.Jun 11 07:01
ZiggyFishI agree with about moonlight, but it would be nice to prove without shadow of a doubt the problems with monoJun 11 07:03
schestowitzHere is another new example of a demonising headline: (no scary picture of Stallman though, unlike the above)Jun 11 07:03
ZiggyFishthe wiki and the mono website says there is nothing wrong with monoJun 11 07:03
ZiggyFishus ZDNet a good balanced IT news website?Jun 11 07:04
schestowitzWell, lots of evidence (not just in begs to differ. The only one fighting these presumptions are mono devs who protect their preferences and interest.Jun 11 07:04
schestowitzNo, ZDNet is mainly just blogs these days.Jun 11 07:05
schestowitzZDNet has people who troll by their own admission and the front page (news) has been largely vacant since Ziff Davis announced bankruptcy.Jun 11 07:05
ZiggyFishschestowitz: is there an alternative to mono?Jun 11 07:06
ZiggyFish(or the C# language)Jun 11 07:06
schestowitzdotgnu? See this recent one: http://thewolftipi.blogspot...Jun 11 07:07
schestowitzI've just noticed some new comments there from Jeffrey Stedfast, 'chief Mono booster'. Don't trust these people.Jun 11 07:09
ZiggyFishand by alternative, I mean, is there a compiled language that offers garbage collectionJun 11 07:09
schestowitzWhy not just Java?Jun 11 07:09
ZiggyFishI believe lazy devs are using C# because of it's garbage collectionJun 11 07:10
ZiggyFishJava is too slow (not scalable)Jun 11 07:10
schestowitzGot URL?Jun 11 07:10
ZiggyFishfor Java?Jun 11 07:10
schestowitzI say this because there's FUD and stereotypes.Jun 11 07:10
ZiggyFishcan't seem to find anything. I've heard it from a friend of mineJun 11 07:12
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schestowitzDon't fall for the illusion that {.NET fixes everything}^TM.  Jeffrey Stedfast was part of this charade recently. Microsoft is very good when it comes to spreading 'rumours'.Jun 11 07:15
PetoKrausBanshee 1.0 :/Jun 11 07:15
schestowitzhttp://www.grokl... Microsoft: "Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2." Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever. Make the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry. We want to place selection pressure on those companies and indivJun 11 07:15
schestowitziduals that show a genetic weakness for competitors' technologies, to make the industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over time."Jun 11 07:15
schestowitzHa. Banshee. I'd rather look away. They'll probably try to make if 'default'/de facto video/audio player in GNOME. Just like tomboy, fspot, etcJun 11 07:16
PetoKrausIt's sad.Jun 11 07:17
ZiggyFishlolJun 11 07:18
schestowitzNothing has changed.Jun 11 07:18
PetoKrauswhat's fspot?Jun 11 07:19
schestowitz[sarcasm] It's like gspot infected with with monoJun 11 07:20
PetoKrauswell, what's it for?Jun 11 07:20
PetoKrausah well, i'll utfgJun 11 07:21
PetoKrauspicture managing tool?Jun 11 07:21
PetoKrausduh.Jun 11 07:21
schestowitz Also see this new post: 11 07:21
PetoKrausyeah, got both opened already ;)Jun 11 07:21
schestowitzI used to worry about Mono being pushed into LiMo by a Canadian Windows ISV and into OHA (Android) by Miguel, but now we apparently see a breed of larger mobile devices with Mono.Jun 11 07:22
PetoKrausthe bad thing is, Miguel is quite a good coder.Jun 11 07:24
schestowitzRecall for a second what the Halloween memos can teach about 'poisoning' a competitor's product.Jun 11 07:24
schestowitzI don't know about Miguel as a coder. I haven't seen his code. What I do know is that Bill Gates was a bad programmer.Jun 11 07:24
tessierHalloween documents...I remember when the very first one came out in 98 or soJun 11 07:36
schestowitzCheck out the one where they talk about patents and copyrights as Achilles Heel. If it ain't so, they'll try (bogus accusations, plantation).Jun 11 07:41
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dsmith_roy, we could not get an explanation on why freedos option was dropped from lenovoJun 11 08:05
dsmith_"Nothing available with DOS as the preload.  There are select models with a SLED 10 preload."Jun 11 08:07
schestowitzIs it still gone? If so, it's worth bringing up. There are already some comments about it in the blog.Jun 11 08:07
schestowitzSLED 10 is rubbish. See the latest find: "Novell is making me sick too. I happen to run on a discussion about Why is there no Open Source SLES?, just to notice that indeed, you can't have the SRPMS for SLES/SLED in free access!"Jun 11 08:07
dsmith_lenovo only offers it on their work stationsJun 11 08:08
dsmith_this was my response back via email: Hmmmmm…. That totally sucks. I know someone that just purchased one that came with FreeDOS a week or so ago. Now that MS/Novell are partnered together, and MS refers to Novell licenses as royalty payments, users are again at the whim of MS. OEM’s should just build hardware and not worry about OS’s. Its funny that they still offer FreeDOS on their workstations but refuse to do the sameJun 11 08:08
dsmith_for their laptops. I’d still like to know Lenovo’s exact reason as to why they yanked the FreeDOS option though.Jun 11 08:08
schestowitzI bet Microsoft was _at some stage_ claiming that those FreeDOS machines were to become Windows PCs. That's what they do in China ATM.Jun 11 08:09
schestowitzBe aware that Lenovo and Microsoft had a big agreement not so long ago. Also to do with China...Jun 11 08:10
dsmith_hmmmmm...I sm not surprised..Jun 11 08:11
PetoKrauswell, lenovo IS chinaJun 11 08:12
dsmith_Should run this line on your page sometime................Novell - 401 Unauthorized: Access is restricted because of access control policies.Jun 11 08:13
schestowitzIn a way, there's something to Peto's statement.Jun 11 08:13
schestowitzThey are a major OEM there and Microsoft tries to extract more revenue from them. $1.5 billion, IIRCJun 11 08:13
dsmith_SLED-10-SP2-i386-srpms?? service packs?Jun 11 08:14
PetoKrauswell i thinkJun 11 08:14
dsmith_lolJun 11 08:14
PetoKrauschina owns like 40% of lenovoJun 11 08:14
schestowitzMaybe it's for security reasons, dsmith. You know, securing SLED from 'copycats' (of GPL s/w).Jun 11 08:14
PetoKrausi mean, government agenciesJun 11 08:14
schestowitzSLED-10-SP2-i386-srpms, eh? There's something weird in that filenameJun 11 08:15
dsmith_im on their ftp serverJun 11 08:15
dsmith_ 11 08:16
schestowitzI was referring to the acronym "srpms". Not good for marketing purposes. Microsoft tried to market the Zune using the feature they called "squirting"Jun 11 08:16
dsmith_hahaJun 11 08:18
dsmith_redhat-centos-fedora is the way to goJun 11 08:19
PetoKrauswell, yeah.Jun 11 08:19
PetoKrausi don't trust ubuntu anymoreJun 11 08:20
schestowitzAnd Oracle? :-(Jun 11 08:20
dsmith_PetoKraus: I was thinking along those lines todayJun 11 08:21
schestowitzUbuntu has been 'pragmatic' (or "tist") from day one. It was Debian+concessions. I installed 4.10 at the time on my work PC (I had two offices and this one I just needed to SSH from).Jun 11 08:21
PetoKrausand i don't trust debian :/ cause of openssl fiasco. Before that, it was my fav distro.Jun 11 08:22
dsmith_I dont MS buying codecs from MicrosoftJun 11 08:23
schestowitzThe OpenSSL fiasco has sort of equivalents in Solaris and Windows. It's not the end of the world, but it's a big black eye for a security poster child.Jun 11 08:23
PetoKrausyJun 11 08:23
schestowitzI believe MarkS denied it in his response (can't recall for sure), but 'EnterpriseBuntu' could be a matter of time.Jun 11 08:24
dsmith_hmmmmmJun 11 08:24
PetoKrausyou know,if you compare mandriva and ubuntu, i like the mandriva business model more.Jun 11 08:24
PetoKrausthey provide you with a choice of clean systemJun 11 08:24
dsmith_openssl has been patched thoughJun 11 08:24
PetoKrausdsmith_: that's true, though, the bad taste in mouth remainsJun 11 08:25
dsmith_agreed on a blackeyeJun 11 08:25
schestowitzWhich is why last night I received an E-mail urging me to keep their feet on fire, so to speak. Some loyal Ubuntu users are concerned. For the record, I have Ubuntu at home and at work (and Fedora), so I am not biased.Jun 11 08:25
dsmith_I use ssh here to remote manage a few machinesJun 11 08:25
PetoKrausubuntu also disgusted me - we tried to install it on friends machine, with the Intel HDA ICH8 audio card - no soundJun 11 08:25
PetoKrausi've been fixin' it for two days, couldn't, then my friend gave up.Jun 11 08:26
schestowitzThis morning I saw all sorts of blogs that link to us with negative claims. Shoot the messenger, you know?Jun 11 08:26
benJImanCould you link to your bug report?Jun 11 08:26
PetoKrausbenJIman: i don't know how to use launchpad, and, i believe, the linux partition(s) is already gone from his system.Jun 11 08:27
dsmith_PetoKraus: if thats teh same ship in the panasonic cf-51/52 laptopJun 11 08:27
dsmith_*chip, NOT shipJun 11 08:27
PetoKrausi've heard they will fix it in 2-3 weeksJun 11 08:27
dsmith_then I could never get it to work eitherJun 11 08:27
PetoKraustoo bad, the thing is, he actually LIKED using itJun 11 08:28
PetoKrausbut then he sent me "Vista > Linux " with this link... 11 08:28
PetoKrausi felt like an idiot :PJun 11 08:28
dsmith_eh, give it time he'll come back :)Jun 11 08:30
PetoKrausi know. I did as well.Jun 11 08:30
PetoKraushehe, we had a discussion yesterday with another friendJun 11 08:31
PetoKraushe wanted free audio converter... as in beer.Jun 11 08:31
dsmith_I played with rh 7 then 8 then 9 and gave up at was very hard to do that things I wanted to do with windowsJun 11 08:31
dsmith_running a irc server and a few others things as fine but it was limited, as opposed to using win2000Jun 11 08:32
PetoKrauswhen we said we don't know any except mplayer +  lame, he wanted some "commercial one"Jun 11 08:32
dsmith_at the timeJun 11 08:32
dsmith_hmmmmmmmJun 11 08:32
PetoKrauswith argument, that since there are no "good free" ones, he'd have to steal commercial oneJun 11 08:32
PetoKrausfirst link on google gives youJun 11 08:32
PetoKraus 11 08:33
dsmith_wont k3b give you conversion on tghe fly?Jun 11 08:33
PetoKrauswhich is GPLed. So, i posted it to him, he installed it, and said, that it has too many options xDJun 11 08:33
dsmith_I just created a cd for my truck from mp3Jun 11 08:33
PetoKrausdsmith_: yes, but he has Windoze.Jun 11 08:33
dsmith_hehJun 11 08:33
PetoKrausthere are people who you can't satisfy.Jun 11 08:34
dsmith_ayeJun 11 08:34
PetoKrausand, k3b is really really nice app - it's the only K* app i haveJun 11 08:34
PetoKrausi was totally surprised when i saw i can rip directly to AVI from DVDJun 11 08:35
dsmith_yesJun 11 08:36
dsmith_I have a few gtk apps on my kubuntuJun 11 08:36
schestowitzOne of the hrashest Linux critics have just praised the counterparts: 11 08:37
PetoKrausbrasero can't burn on my laptop. It's weird. No GTK+ app can. cdrecord works, k3b works, GTK+ based apps don't.Jun 11 08:38
schestowitzMaybe they all use some shared library that's different...?Jun 11 08:41
PetoKrauswell, it's weird. It can be the bug the guy is talking about in the article...Jun 11 08:42
PetoKrausnvm, i've got k3b, i am not gonna switch back, i think :)Jun 11 08:42
PetoKraushehe, the newest xkcd is EXACTLY what was i thinking about few days agoJun 11 08:45
schestowitzIt's a good application and one that challenges the proprietary ones. There was a good article about Nero for Linux the other day. (yesterday) They can't compete too well.Jun 11 08:45
schestowitzURL?Jun 11 08:45
PetoKrauswww.xkcd.comJun 11 08:45
schestowitzSo it's the latest one then. :-)Jun 11 08:46
PetoKrausyes, newest ... yeah, latest :PJun 11 08:46
dsmith_gnJun 11 08:50
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tessierxkcd rocksJun 11 09:00 is choking on something at the moment. I wonder if someone linked to it from a 'big' site. I don't know why it's so unreponsive.Jun 11 09:01
schestowitzThat Ubuntu item brought thousands of visitors, but it's only stuff like Slashdot or Digg that almost always takes the server down.Jun 11 09:02
PetoKrauswellJun 11 09:03
PetoKrausperforms quite well hererJun 11 09:03
schestowitzI've become sort of afraid of FPs. Can't sleep well if that happens because they always take down the site for a few hours at the worst of times.Jun 11 09:04
schestowitzLike... when ISO got busted and made Digg's FP. Downtimes knock it off the FP.Jun 11 09:05
PetoKrausfp?Jun 11 09:05
schestowitzFront page.Jun 11 09:06
PetoKrausjust read a bit about HTML5 and that ogg stuffJun 11 09:10
PetoKrausit's weird.Jun 11 09:12
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schestowitzWhat specifically?Jun 11 09:17
PetoKrausthe ogg controversyJun 11 09:17
PetoKrausi mean, submarine patents fear?Jun 11 09:17
PetoKrausis there another codec/container format, which is NOT patented?Jun 11 09:18
schestowitzI don't know of any. But either way, patents on matrices are stupid and should be illegal.Jun 11 09:18
ZiggyFishanyway got to go watch this gameJun 11 09:38
schestowitzHave fun!Jun 11 09:38
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PetoKrausfine!Jun 11 10:08
PetoKrausgot my rss feed creator workingJun 11 10:08
PetoKraus:)Jun 11 10:08
schestowitzIn Python?Jun 11 10:10
schestowitzI could use some help with Python because I never learned it and a script I use for could use a slight tweak.Jun 11 10:11
PetoKraussureJun 11 10:11
schestowitzHold on. I'll look at the file's source code.Jun 11 10:11
schestowitzI need to trim URLs automatically in IRC logs. I have this line of code:Jun 11 10:13
schestowitzreturn URL_REGEXP.sub(r'<a href="\1">\1</a>', text)Jun 11 10:13
schestowitzIgnoring all the rest. how can one truncate the URL's anchor (name) while leaving the URL (hyperlink) in tact?Jun 11 10:14
schestowitzAs in <a href="" 11 10:15
PetoKrausso you wanna keep the content of <a href></a>, but remove the tags themselvesJun 11 10:15
schestowitzNo, I just need to shorted the URL which is displayed (while keeping the hyperlink functional)Jun 11 10:15
PetoKrausgimme secJun 11 10:17
PetoKrauswhat are the parameters the URL_REGEXP.sub() function gets?Jun 11 10:21
schestowitzShould I mail you the entire script maybe?Jun 11 10:22
schestowitzI would be grateful.Jun 11 10:23
PetoKrausyupJun 11 10:23
PetoKrausgot a call with mother, these are always difficult :DJun 11 10:24
PetoKrauspeter.kraus@member.fsf.orgJun 11 10:24
schestowitzThanks, hold on.Jun 11 10:25
PetoKrauswhat length would you like to have it?Jun 11 10:29
schestowitzLet's say... 35 chars?Jun 11 10:33
schestowitzThanks for this!Jun 11 10:33
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PetoKrausregexps, duh :)Jun 11 10:42
schestowitzIf it's not trivial to achieve, feel free to give up. I wouldn't be too disappointed. I have been doing all of this manually so far.Jun 11 10:49
PetoKrausi could do it not using regexpsJun 11 10:49
PetoKrausbut it won't be very fastrJun 11 10:49
schestowitzIt takes me just a coupke of seconds to run it, so speed isn't an issue. :-)Jun 11 10:50
PetoKraushmm i am trying to find out how to trim the \1Jun 11 11:12
schestowitz Coming from the same firm that advertises Vista. Marketers in suits. That's what analysts usually are. Those who pay benefit.Jun 11 11:27
PetoKrausgot itJun 11 11:41
PetoKrauscheck your email. it SHOULD work.Jun 11 11:42
schestowitz:-)Jun 11 11:42
PetoKrausi didn't do thorough testing, thoughJun 11 11:42
schestowitzI'll test it now. BTW, new article of interest: 11 11:44
PetoKrausyup, i like python, because it's based on C-like syntax, it's very similar to Java which i've learned in last two years, it forces you to use nicely laid out code and it's pretty flexible.Jun 11 11:55
schestowitzI've just run it through an example (the script). Let me check again because it seems not to have had an effect.Jun 11 11:56
PetoKrausmaybe shorter trim ;)Jun 11 11:56
PetoKraus35 is a lotJun 11 11:56
schestowitzOh waitJun 11 11:57
schestowitzSilly me.Jun 11 11:57
schestowitzWait..Jun 11 11:57
PetoKrausyou ran the old one, didn't youJun 11 11:57
PetoKraus:PJun 11 11:57
schestowitzCool. It works!Jun 11 11:58
schestowitzCan I hear a "hell yeah"? :-)Jun 11 11:59
PetoKraushell yeah!Jun 11 11:59
PetoKrausi hope it doesn't ommit bits of text :DJun 11 11:59
schestowitzYes, I overwrote the wrong file. I like the standard output of this script. It's very visual.Jun 11 11:59
PetoKrausit shouldn't...Jun 11 11:59
PetoKrausyou mean, the coloured one?Jun 11 12:00
schestowitzI get triangle running the script (in std io).Jun 11 12:01
PetoKrausaha :)Jun 11 12:01
schestowitzOh wait... it seems to be chewing some text. Let me check why.Jun 11 12:03
PetoKrauschewing - like, ommiting?Jun 11 12:05
schestowitzIt always omits the last word in a message.Jun 11 12:06
PetoKraushmmJun 11 12:07
PetoKrausdohJun 11 12:08
PetoKrausit's brokenJun 11 12:08
schestowitzRed Hat has just settled (paid for) patent cases :-( 11 12:09
PetoKrausthe funny thing isJun 11 12:13
PetoKrauseven your original code is brokenJun 11 12:13
schestowitzI blame Jeff Waugh.Jun 11 12:14
PetoKraus<schestowitz>Jun 11 12:14
PetoKraus <a href=" 11 12:14
PetoKrausComing"> 11 12:14
PetoKrausComing</a>  from the same firm that advertises Vista. Marketers in suits. That'sJun 11 12:14
PetoKrauswhat analysts usually are. Those who pay benefit.Jun 11 12:14
PetoKrausthat's what it doesJun 11 12:15
PetoKraushmm i guess i'll do it without regexps totallyJun 11 12:24
schestowitzSorry to have become such a nuisance. I'm very grateful for that.Jun 11 12:25
PetoKrausno problemJun 11 12:26
PetoKrausi've got nothing better to doJun 11 12:26
PetoKrausbetter than playing gamesJun 11 12:26
PetoKraus:)Jun 11 12:26
schestowitzMicrosoft's latest 'open source' propaganda from India: 11 12:27
PetoKraushmm got it, i hopeJun 11 12:41
schestowitz:-) Thank you.Jun 11 12:42
PetoKrausthe lines MIGHT be broken thoughJun 11 12:43
PetoKrausthere is also another problem, if someone sends you a link directly after other characterJun 11 12:45
PetoKrausexcept " .>"Jun 11 12:46
schestowitzHmmm... sounds like an existing bug has caused other issues then. Maybe if it's fixed, then it can (and should) be handed over to Waugh and others. It's GPLed...Jun 11 12:49
PetoKrausit's not fixed, it's worked aroundJun 11 12:50
PetoKrausi completely dropped regexps from that one caseJun 11 12:51
PetoKrausthe regexp they did there do some weird thingsJun 11 12:51
PetoKrauslike ignoring the space in: " ComingJun 11 12:52
schestowitzMore PressTroTurfing from India: What on earrh is this doing on Google news? :-|Jun 11 12:52
PetoKrausWhen critics maintain that Open XML isn't compatible with other formats, they are indeed correct. It isn't. The reason for this is that there isn't an established standard, so every file format is non-standard.Jun 11 12:53
PetoKrausLOL :DJun 11 12:53
schestowitzIt's probably coming from one of Microsoft's offshoring buddies from India... you know, those that loot the country by voting "Yes" and bullying criticsa.Jun 11 12:54
PetoKrauswell, this probably comes from someone paid to be dumbJun 11 12:54
PetoKrausIt didn't become the top software company in the world by suing its way to the top; it did it by making products that people actually wanted to buy.Jun 11 12:55
PetoKrausehm. i sense fallacies.Jun 11 12:55
schestowitzPlenty of those around. I know some press that I'm warned about because it's doing 'placements' for companies.Jun 11 12:55
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schestowitzCan I try the script you've just mailed me?Jun 11 12:58
PetoKrausyJun 11 12:58
schestowitzOK. Here is what I found: in case where there is ": http://" or "? <http", for example, the URL is left unhandled. It's processed like a normal word.Jun 11 13:05
PetoKrausuhmJun 11 13:05
PetoKrausokJun 11 13:06
PetoKrauscan you navigate to def: parser()?Jun 11 13:06
PetoKrausin the elif word[-1] in " >.\n": lineJun 11 13:07
PetoKrausin the " "'s should be anything which denotes end of wordJun 11 13:07
PetoKrausso add :<Jun 11 13:07
PetoKrausalso ?!; can be ;)Jun 11 13:08
schestowitzThanks, hold on.Jun 11 13:09
schestowitzI have: elif word[-1] in " >.?!;:<>\n":Jun 11 13:16
PetoKrausworks?Jun 11 13:17
PetoKrauswell, you could also use ' and \"Jun 11 13:17
PetoKrausin case it's in quotation marks...Jun 11 13:17
schestowitzNo,not quite. I think it's a little worse in the sense that fewer URLs are picked upJun 11 13:17
PetoKrausbasicallyJun 11 13:23
PetoKrausthe sentinel strings  (" >.?!;:<>\n")Jun 11 13:23
PetoKrauscan be the same in both casesJun 11 13:23
PetoKrauswell, except . for the second one...Jun 11 13:24
schestowitzOh.Jun 11 13:28
schestowitzWhat should it be then, I wonder?Jun 11 13:28
PetoKraus" .?!;:<>\n\'" and " ?!;:<>\n\'"Jun 11 13:31
PetoKrausis my guessJun 11 13:31
schestowitzI have:Jun 11 13:34
schestowitzelif word[-1] in " .?!;:<>\n\'" and " ?!;:<>\n\'":Jun 11 13:34
PetoKrausonly in " .?!;:<>\n\'"Jun 11 13:35
schestowitzIt seems not to work though. It mishandles many URLsJun 11 13:35
PetoKrausunder that you've got if word[-1] in " ?!;:<>\n\'Jun 11 13:35
PetoKrauswhat kind of url's it mishandles?Jun 11 13:35
schestowitzAll of them, I think.Jun 11 13:36
PetoKraushmm, that's weird xDJun 11 13:37
PetoKrauslets see what did i sent to youJun 11 13:37
schestowitzOh, wait.Jun 11 13:38
PetoKrausit's good idea to remove the bytecode (pyc) if you have anyJun 11 13:38
schestowitzShould I have changed 2 lines? I chenged only 1, initially.Jun 11 13:39
PetoKrauscould you send me a textfile / string you re testing it on?Jun 11 13:40
schestowitzOh, I see...Jun 11 13:40
PetoKrauswellJun 11 13:47
PetoKrausthere is a problem with colonsJun 11 13:47
PetoKraus:)Jun 11 13:47
PetoKrausalrightJun 11 13:53
schestowitzThanks for taking a look at this.Jun 11 13:53
PetoKrausthere is one problemJun 11 13:54
PetoKrauscolons immediatelly before links such as:http://pk.gjhak.skJun 11 13:54
PetoKrausand, parenthesis in links...Jun 11 13:54
PetoKrauswhat i could do!Jun 11 13:55
schestowitzI see.Jun 11 13:55
PetoKrauswanna another try?Jun 11 14:05
PetoKrausxDJun 11 14:05
schestowitzYes, please.Jun 11 14:05
PetoKrausthe emails are getting longer :PJun 11 14:07
schestowitzYes, considerably. Let me try it.Jun 11 14:10
schestowitzThis one looks good. It fails just in a few places.Jun 11 14:15
PetoKrauseg?Jun 11 14:15
schestowitzIn one case I get <a href="" ></a&...Jun 11 14:16
PetoKrausduhJun 11 14:17
PetoKraussemicolonsJun 11 14:17
PetoKrausyeah sure, how dumb can i be?Jun 11 14:17
schestowitzSome others are not treated as URLs, e.g. and 11 14:17
PetoKrauswhat's their surroundings?Jun 11 14:17
schestowitzSome have colons before them, some are just a message that's a URL, some are colon-then-whitespaceJun 11 14:18
PetoKrausit's weird, both of them work here...Jun 11 14:18
PetoKrauspk@gentoo ~ $ python | grep linuxpetaflopJun 11 14:19
PetoKraus<a href="" > 11 14:19
PetoKraus:SJun 11 14:19
PetoKrauslet's try the initial script, whether it catches them...Jun 11 14:20
PetoKrausthat one segfaults on itJun 11 14:22
PetoKraus:DJun 11 14:22
PetoKrausthe same on the youtube linkJun 11 14:23
schestowitz:-)Jun 11 14:23
schestowitzI tried it again and rechecked some things.Jun 11 14:23
PetoKrauspk@gentoo ~ $ python | grep 208402802Jun 11 14:25
PetoKrausJun 10 17:12:53 <Eruaran>       <a href=" 11 14:25
PetoKrausJun"> 11 14:25
PetoKrauswhich gives you pretty bad linkJun 11 14:25
PetoKrausi don't get these regexps, they seem to be ok, but still give wrong results.Jun 11 14:26
schestowitzA semi-automated solution would work too. :-)Jun 11 14:27
PetoKraushmm there's something weird hereJun 11 14:31
PetoKrausthe string passed to the function is different...Jun 11 14:31
schestowitzMaybe the whole script was a "ugly hack"^TM to begin with?Jun 11 14:32
PetoKrausthe point isJun 11 14:34
PetoKrauswhen i run my script alone it detects more than when it's called inside the creatorJun 11 14:34
PetoKrausi'll do an ugly hack.Jun 11 14:35
schestowitz:-)Jun 11 14:36
PetoKrausnah, this didn't helpJun 11 14:41
PetoKrausit looks like i'd have to give up for todayJun 11 14:42
PetoKrausbetter to contact the developers and tell them, that their regexps match weird strings from time to timeJun 11 14:42
schestowitzThanks for this. Yes, I can wait for this if you need time. I thought at the start that it would be a simply tweak (trimming a string).Jun 11 14:45
PetoKrausit isJun 11 14:46
PetoKrausif you know regexps :DJun 11 14:46
schestowitzMicrosoft tries to capture Russian by sucking up to it now (same in India)... 11 15:19
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EruaranhelloJun 11 16:17
schestowitzHowdy. I have some pssts coming soon. I reckon I found enough evidence to call Icahn a Microsoft proxy fighter.Jun 11 16:17
EruaranReally ?Jun 11 16:19
schestowitzThey spoke in the past. They tried harder to deny this at first. They know that a shallow proxy fight would harm their image, IMHO.Jun 11 16:19
EruaranI found a revealing article about Nokia's attitude toward GPL softwareJun 11 16:19
schestowitzThey may be using Ichan as the scapegoat to do the 'dirty job'.Jun 11 16:20
schestowitzPleas share.Jun 11 16:20
Eruaran 11 16:20
schestowitzThanks! Give me just a few minutes to finish something and I'll have a look. Nokia has been jugely ambivalent recently.Jun 11 16:22
schestowitz*hugelyJun 11 16:22
EruaranMakes me wonder why they bought TrollJun 11 16:22
Eruaran*TrolltechJun 11 16:22
EruaranThey dont grok free software at allJun 11 16:22
EruaranAnd it seems they think they can control and dictateJun 11 16:22
EruaranJudging by the attitude in that articleJun 11 16:23
EruaranBut Qt is now GPLv3Jun 11 16:23
schestowitzThey don't, no. They even use the kernel like a piece of proprietary software. As for attitude, it's a bit like Citrix buying Xen... what for? "The brand," they say.Jun 11 16:23
schestowitzI believe they bought it just to stifle competition (OHA, LiMo, Palm, Motorola, and some of Microsoft's desktop competition... Nokia is close to Microsoft too)Jun 11 16:24
EruaranI read another article which reports LiMo doing well in the US, while Nokia is struggling.Jun 11 16:25
EruaranI wonder if Nokia understands what it means for Qt to be GPLv3Jun 11 16:26
EruaranCause it means they don't own it.Jun 11 16:27
schestowitzReally? (re Nokia struggle) They had a good quarter.Jun 11 16:27
EruaranI'll have to find the article againJun 11 16:28
schestowitzLet me think. Well, Nokia has said twice in the past 3 weeks some good things about Linux, but then denies ditching Symbian. I think they face a cannibalisation dilemma, much like Microsoft whose sales declined.Jun 11 16:28
schestowitzI have yet to read the article above (I just need to finish something first). I suppose you know about Nokia's pro-software patents in Europe lobby and fight against Ogg...Jun 11 16:29
EruaranyesJun 11 16:29
EruaranNokia is pro-DRMJun 11 16:29
schestowitzThey have 'good people' too (not scare quotes). They have the Linux division and the legacy also.Jun 11 16:30
Eruaran"There are certain business rules [developers] need to obey, such as DRM, IPR [intellectual property rights], SIM locks and subsidised business models." - Ari Jaaksi (Nokia)Jun 11 16:30
schestowitz*gasp* And that's from their 'Linux guy'? I seem to recall the name.Jun 11 16:32
EruaranyesJun 11 16:32
EruaranFUDding it up well and trulyJun 11 16:32
schestowitzThe problem with such 'rules' or 'laws' is that they are created by the likes of Nokia who lobby for change.Jun 11 16:32
EruaranHe's in for a hard time if he thinks the KDE community is going to play nice with him.Jun 11 16:33
PetoKrausguys, only one thing annoys me even more than this. Facial hair. Why did god bother inventing it? Anyway, thank you for nice chit-chat and keeping me doing something more sane than gaming, Got to go. Cya tomorrow.Jun 11 16:34
schestowitzHave you read about changes in KDE's stance? I recently read that they become very defencive of the GPL and FSF.Jun 11 16:35
EruaranThey are standing firm as a free software projectJun 11 16:35
schestowitzHah. Thanks, <PetoKraus>. And yes, I agree.Jun 11 16:35
schestowitzAs they rightly should. They are very Qt-dependent.Jun 11 16:36
EruaranI think moving Qt to GPLv3 was a defensive moveJun 11 16:36
EruaranAnticipatoryJun 11 16:37
schestowitzHad Nokia ever abandoned Qt, it would be BSD-bound as I understand it. But who would then maintain it? It'll be interesting to see if Nokia can weave in antifeatures into QtJun 11 16:37
EruaranKDE e.v.Jun 11 16:37
schestowitzLGPV3 for KDE is a matter of time.Jun 11 16:37
EruaranI think I read somewhere that Aaron Seigo wants all of KDE to be GPLv3 and moving Qt to GPLv3 is the first step.Jun 11 16:38
schestowitzBravo, Aaron.Jun 11 16:38
EruaranI've also noticed the stance of the KOffice team with regard to OOXML is very firmJun 11 16:39
EruaranThey are not going to give any time to it.Jun 11 16:39
schestowitzThey need to defend themselves against some of that patent nonsense for starters. That would also have ripple effects on licence compatibility, but Novell might combat this.Jun 11 16:39
schestowitzOh! Xandros and Linspire are KDE-based also. They'd be shaken.Jun 11 16:39
schestowitzYes, it is.Jun 11 16:40
schestowitzA KOffice developer (I tuhink) talked to me about it. They won't touch MOOX and after the most recent developments they might not have to. Even Microsoft changed directions.Jun 11 16:40
EruaranI downloaded Aaron speaking in Melbourne - he's dedicated to KDE's libraries and frameworks being completely independant (one example is not being bullied into relying on Webkit for Konqueror).Jun 11 16:41
schestowitzAdditionally, it's the German market that's quicker to adopt KDE and KOffice. Everywhere in Germany I just read a lot about ODF tools, ISVs and policies.Jun 11 16:41
EruaranThey are using the Qt free port of Webkit for plasma, which means people can use Apple widgets on KDE, but KHTML is still being actively developed and not abandoned at all.Jun 11 16:42
schestowitzI thought KHTML's routes were in Trolltech because they hired the brainchild of it (who must now be working at Nokia).Jun 11 16:43
schestowitz*rootsJun 11 16:43
EruaranI find it ironic that GNOME devs continue to waffle and mess about with Mono and Moonlight while KDE is strongly free software only. Ironic considering the past histories of both projects.Jun 11 16:43
schestowitzYes, you are not the only one to have pointed this out.Jun 11 16:44
schestowitzI know too little about the roots of the projects, but it sometimes seems like Novell has gained a lot of control over GNOME. It's there in KDE as well, but I can't think of major figures.Jun 11 16:45
EruaranWhenever I've visited the KDE main page I always note that they use the words "free software" and link directly to the FSF, no ambiguity.Jun 11 16:46
schestowitzIf they don't follow the source (of the movement) they'll be pulled into the Microsoft pseudo open source vortex. I found these two earlier:Jun 11 16:46
EruaranAaron Seigo is a major driving force within KDE today. He and the guys from Amarok have inspired a lot of people.Jun 11 16:47
schestowitz 11 16:47
schestowitzIf it sounds familiar, it ought to. Novell too has described itself as a mixed source company for 1.5 years.Jun 11 16:47
EruaranyesJun 11 16:48
schestowitzAmaroK and K3b are poster child for the desktop. Plasma too is becoming a cornerstone.Jun 11 16:48
schestowitz*childrenJun 11 16:48
EruaranThey have a visionJun 11 16:49
EruaranAaron has described KDE 4.x as the KDE community's 747Jun 11 16:49
schestowitzI think it'll need more than 4.1 to be fully accepted by all. Even Leopard had its barriers. I can wait.Jun 11 16:50
Eruaran(Creating the 747 nearly killed Boeing, but it became one of the most important modern aircraft for passenger flights)Jun 11 16:51
schestowitzTrue that. Vista aka "7" may not recuperate because of the underlying problems. It was not engineered for actual users.Jun 11 16:52
EruaranIndeedJun 11 16:53
schestowitzI've come to know pretty well what they had planned behind closed doors. It wasn't about features. That's just shaving foam on a very bad cake.Jun 11 16:54
EruaranKDE4 is an entire framework for the future, while something like Vista is merely symptomatic of a failing business model.Jun 11 16:54
schestowitzI worry about GNOME too. Banshee 1.0 is released and it's getting to be a sort of media player 'of choice' for GNOME/GTK.Jun 11 16:55
EruaranIs it Mono dependant ?Jun 11 16:56
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jun 11 16:56
schestowitzGoing back to Novell's risk, what the Halloween document might as well teach us is that Microsoft describes a scenario that puts the GPL under fire and then tries to make it true.Jun 11 16:56
schestowitzYes, Banshee is like a 'crown jewel' of Mono.Jun 11 16:57
Eruaran*sigh*Jun 11 16:57
schestowitzJono Bacon even raves about it. Jun 11 16:57
Eruaran:(Jun 11 16:58
EruaranI just don't understand how people can be so blindJun 11 16:58
EruaranIs it arrogance ?Jun 11 16:58
schestowitzSelf justification, I think. It's easy to justify.Jun 11 16:59
schestowitz"C# on Linux is OK because there are many s/w patents, so I am equally sensitive" or "Microsoft 'loves' open source now"Jun 11 16:59
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EruaranI've noticed a few of the GNOME devs advocating the use of C# a bit latelyJun 11 17:00
EruaranCompletely the opposite of GNOME in the late 90'sJun 11 17:00
EruaranAll this leaves me quite confoundedJun 11 17:01
schestowitzHave you seen the GTK homepage?Jun 11 17:01
schestowitzI was alerted by E-mail about it.Jun 11 17:01
EruaranI haven't lookedJun 11 17:03
moparxyou mean this? "GTK+ it is written in C, but has bindings to many other popular programming languages such as C++, Python and C# among others"Jun 11 17:03
EruaranI wasnt thinking of that specificallyJun 11 17:04
schestowitzThey give precedence to C# at the expense of Java.Jun 11 17:04
schestowitzI was told this by someone who noticed a change. He programs for Maemo.Jun 11 17:04
EruaranI've noticed a couple of blogs from GNOME devs (including Miguel De Icaza) saying they want to use C#Jun 11 17:05
schestowitzCall this paranoia if you prefer, but he reckons that Microsoft games mailing lists, Brainstorm and other facilities to make GNOME more Mono-obedient.Jun 11 17:05
moparxdidn't he say he wasnted GNOME to be fully C# at one point?Jun 11 17:05
EruaranIf they continue like this, GNOME will go down with Novell in the end.Jun 11 17:06
EruaranOh he's in love with anything that comes from MicrosoftJun 11 17:06
schestowitz<moparx>: yes, do you want the URL?Jun 11 17:06
moparxsureJun 11 17:06
schestowitzGive me just a moment.Jun 11 17:07
schestowitz<Eruaran>, Miguel started his career with Microsoft's helps as far as I can tell. He thinks for himself and they brainwash him. So I'm told anyway...Jun 11 17:07
EruaranI believe one of two things will happenJun 11 17:09
EruaranEither GNOME will be forked, or GNOME devs will migrate to KDE. I think a "FreeGNOME" is more likely at this point.Jun 11 17:10
schestowitzWHat about corporate backing?Jun 11 17:11
EruaranI can't see this situation continuing without unrest turning into a full blown revolt... If that doesn't happen, I don't think GNOME has a future as a free software project.Jun 11 17:11
EruaranI think a "FreeGNOME" will find it has more friends once divorced from Microvell than it had before.Jun 11 17:13
schestowitzDoes Microsoft has any ammunition against or control over KDE? Just asking.Jun 11 17:13
EruaranI don't think so.Jun 11 17:14
schestowitzI've opened that ZDNet article just now.Jun 11 17:14
EruaranKDE is a problem for Microsoft, while GNOME seems to be a playground.Jun 11 17:14
schestowitzNokia does both (GTK and Qt).Jun 11 17:15
EruaranI don't think Nokia will be able to 'control' KDE or Qt. There was the BSD style deal with Trolltech which cuts Qt loose into the hands of KDE e.v. in the event of a takeover. And moving Qt to GPLv3 has further consequences that I think perhaps make that deal redundant.Jun 11 17:16
EruaranThat cat is already out of the bag so to speakJun 11 17:16
EruaranIf Nokia tries to screw Trolltech simply to appropriate its software, it will incur a great deal of animosity in the free software world. And Qt would probably benefit (think Eclipse) rather than be weakened significantly. And the community would only be wiser and more cynical about corporates like Nokia.Jun 11 17:20
EruaranAnd KDE will continue.Jun 11 17:21
EruaranAt least... thats what I think...Jun 11 17:21
EruaranNokia suits can say what they like; But they'll be wrong if they think they've suddenly gained ownership of a community.Jun 11 17:22
schestowitzThe article about Nokia is indeed disappointing.Jun 11 17:22
EruaranyesJun 11 17:23
schestowitzLet me just fetch another link for <moparx>.Jun 11 17:23
EruaranI don't think Qt and the KDE community will "go quietly into that dark night", but rather they'll be fierce.Jun 11 17:23
schestowitzQt was a cheap acquisition (compared to MySQL for example), but it secures a lot for Nokia. It's like Microsoft and the "cost/economics of  FUD" (BusinessWeek)Jun 11 17:25
schestowitzHere is one for the bookmarks: ( Gnome to be based on .NET – de Icaza )Jun 11 17:26
EruaranIts absolutely bizzarre.Jun 11 17:28
moparxindeedJun 11 17:28
EruaranTalk about role reversals.Jun 11 17:29
EruaranBut what I like is that KDE is going cross platform without questionable dependancies.Jun 11 17:30
EruaranA kind of free software version of "embrace and extend"Jun 11 17:30
Eruaran:PJun 11 17:30
schestowitzYes, they wrote something about KDE on Vista not so long ago. I didn't post this in because it's a bit like Windows advertising.Jun 11 17:32
schestowitzWorry not because the Windows stack is undesirable anyway. People can swap underlying systems provided the applications and environment stays there.Jun 11 17:32
EruaranIts great because it creates dependancies on free software, not the other way around.Jun 11 17:33
schestowitzThen again, development focus /might/ be lost a little.Jun 11 17:34
EruaranAnd if someone uses KDE apps on Windows or Mac (I already know Windows users who would be quite happy to run K3B, K9Copy, and Amarok on their Windows boxes), its easier for that user to migrate to GNU/Linux.Jun 11 17:34
EruaranYesJun 11 17:35
EruaranBut they seem to be doing ok with it.Jun 11 17:35
moparxheh. another boycott "boycott novell" blog post... these seem to be increasing as of late: http://bigbolshevik.blo...Jun 11 17:35
EruaranhahJun 11 17:37
EruaranThe way he presents it, you'd think you were deleting Mark Shuttleworths posts and all...Jun 11 17:38
schestowitzLet me see. No, we never delete anything.Jun 11 17:38
Eruaran:)Jun 11 17:38
schestowitzI didn't read it. I just glanced at it quickly.Jun 11 17:39
schestowitzWe don't submit stories to FSDaily.Jun 11 17:40
schestowitzThere's someone called "komrad" (no idea who this is) who submits our stuff sometimes.Jun 11 17:40
schestowitzDoes anyone know who he is?Jun 11 17:41
moparxnahJun 11 17:41
EruarannopeJun 11 17:41
schestowitzIt makes our site seem like "communism", I guess (I saw this word used by this critic).Jun 11 17:41
schestowitzSo the opposite of digital slavery is now "communism", eh?Jun 11 17:42
EruaranmmJun 11 17:42
moparx"Most recently, Boycott Novell has published a story about how Mark Shuttleworth has supposedly "sold-out" to Microsoft by having licensed Windows Media codecs in the new Ubuntu Netbook Remix. Oh, and Mono, of course. Look at the source of this shocking revelation: their own IRC channel! "  <-- I didn't realize all this stuff that happens originated form this IRC channel. hehe :pJun 11 17:42
moparxfrom*Jun 11 17:43
schestowitzYes, some people come in and drop ideas. I sometimes get scoops via E-mail.Jun 11 17:43
schestowitzAnd the source is not the IRC channel in this case. It's Ubuntu.comJun 11 17:43
EruaranI might respondJun 11 17:46
EruaranBut it will have to be tomorrow... I have to get to bedJun 11 17:46
moparxHe makes it sound like Boycott Novell just makes everything up. Following that logic: Even Canonical's remix site and the problems with MONO must have been all created by you!Jun 11 17:46
moparx;)Jun 11 17:46
schestowitzWell, they need to accuse.Jun 11 17:46
Eruarangnite guysJun 11 17:46
schestowitzSome of them make accusations of circular logic because they don't /want/ to follow the external links that validate.Jun 11 17:46
schestowitzYou too.Jun 11 17:47
moparxnight EruaranJun 11 17:47
schestowitzI'm going to post a bunch of posts. FSDaily's front page has just had another BN story show up in the FP moments ago.Jun 11 17:49
schestowitzWho is "komrad"? I wish I knew.Jun 11 17:49
moparx"I am sick and tired too of all the fud and spam polluting FS Daily by boycott Novell"  <-- Its not like the FSDaily submissions are getting to the front page by themselves. the majority of people obviously like them and vote them up :/Jun 11 17:54
schestowitzYes, I'm surprised myself. As I said, it's typically "komrad" who submits them. I know that they also like Groklaw over there are they read the News Picks that comprise stuff that I mail to PJ.Jun 11 17:58
tessier_What is FSDaily?Jun 11 19:28
schestowitzFree Software. Daily. It's like Digg but for FOSS.Jun 11 19:29
tessier_I seeJun 11 19:30
*tacone ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 11 19:35
*zombiebox ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 11 19:59
zombieboxinteresting... are there a website where I can learn more about this?Jun 11 20:06
taconezombiebox: ?Jun 11 20:06
zombieboxahh.... should have thought of....Jun 11 20:14
zombiebox:-}Jun 11 20:14
tacone:-)Jun 11 20:15
zombieboxonly problem, is I have never bought anything from novell and have no plan to, that I can cancel.... :-/Jun 11 20:15
taconedo you run gnome ?Jun 11 20:16
zombieboxwhat the heck are novell selling nowadays, anyway?Jun 11 20:16
zombieboxuhh.. well on linux I use gnome yes....Jun 11 20:16
taconedo you run tomboy ?Jun 11 20:17
zombieboxnever heard of, what is tomboy?Jun 11 20:18
taconenote taking application for gnomeJun 11 20:18
taconetomboy and f-spot are made in mono.Jun 11 20:18
taconemono is by novellJun 11 20:18
taconesome people think allowing mono in gnome makes gnome vulnerable to legal litigations from microsoft.Jun 11 20:19
zombieboxohh... well but I allready hate mono because it micrsoftish  :-)Jun 11 20:20
taconehating itself is not a balanced attitude. anyway, that's one of the issues with novell that website talks about.Jun 11 20:22
taconeit's not really about buying from novell. not from a consumer point of view.Jun 11 20:22
zombieboxahaJun 11 20:23
zombieboxabout mono btw, I think it is a bad thing to waste a lot of time on creating a unix version of .net ..... microsoft will soon "invent" a new programming framework anyway. who uses MFC today? it is all about slowing down other programming companies.. forcing them to waste time on learning new apis every other yearJun 11 20:29
taconezombiebox: well mono applications are usually very polished.Jun 11 20:30
zombieboxaha.Jun 11 20:31
taconetomboy works like a charm and was appointed as "awesome" by gnome core developers while discussing in their mailing listJun 11 20:31
zombieboxless memory-hungry and slow than usual then?Jun 11 20:31
taconemono is a VM, not more or less than java an python too is an interpreter, a kind of vm in a wayJun 11 20:32
taconeguess mono is quite faster than python, but that's just my betJun 11 20:32
taconewhile I don't like the idea of having mono applications in gnome, seems to me novell is very good at everything it does.Jun 11 20:33
taconecompiz, for example, comes from novell.Jun 11 20:33
zombieboxohJun 11 20:33
taconeby the way, I choose to learn python instead of mono, even if mono would help me a lot better in the work marketJun 11 20:34
zombieboxwhould it be verry impossible to automaticly convert a mono thing to say python?Jun 11 20:36
zombieboxit is possible to auto-convert between languages (for example pascal to c) so....Jun 11 20:37
taconeno.Jun 11 20:37
taconewuold be a pain in the ass and 80% of the times it would not work.Jun 11 20:38
taconeit's not really about the language itself but about mono core librariesJun 11 20:38
taconethere a few language converters out there, and almost all of them are just proofs of conceptJun 11 20:39
zombieboxokJun 11 20:42
*PetoKraus ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 11 21:25
PetoKraus'eveningJun 11 21:25
*tacone ( has left #boycottnovell ("Going. Much love.")Jun 11 21:27
zombieboxgood evening PetoKrausJun 11 22:23
*zombiebox ( has left #boycottnovellJun 11 22:26
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jun 11 23:39


Recent Techrights' Posts

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There will be more next week