Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 11th, 2008

*RogerBacon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jul 11 02:01
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yuhong"Apple is not an ethical company"Jul 11 05:16
yuhongI would not go that far.Jul 11 05:16
yuhongIt is certainly better than MS.Jul 11 05:16
yuhongBut thanks for pointing out that MS is not the only company that does that.Jul 11 05:17
schestowitzYesJul 11 05:17
schestowitzI didn't put them in the same class.Jul 11 05:17
yuhongAMD tried to take reviewers to Tahoe for the Phenom launch.Jul 11 05:17
yuhongLuckily at least some reviewers didn't go.Jul 11 05:18
schestowitzThis I sisn't know,Jul 11 05:18
schestowitz*didn;t.Jul 11 05:18
yuhongI think that is the real gauge of reviewers.Jul 11 05:18
schestowitzIt's like lobbying. They are following competitors' tricks.Jul 11 05:19
yuhong 11 05:20
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:20
schestowitzAMD suffers from a much worse rival.Jul 11 05:21
yuhongI think the fundemental issue in the end, is that corporations onlyycare about profit.Jul 11 05:21
schestowitzIntel is a lot worse. From my point of view, Intel is run by people who should be kept behind bars.Jul 11 05:21
yuhongI would not go that far.Jul 11 05:22
schestowitzThere are market rules.Jul 11 05:22
schestowitzThose who don't obey the rules are never punished.Jul 11 05:22
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:22
yuhongAnd it applies not to just MS and Intel.Jul 11 05:22
yuhongFDA, for example.Jul 11 05:22
schestowitzYes.Jul 11 05:23
yuhongBTW, I originally were going to say that Intel kicked AMD out of the high-end.Jul 11 05:23
schestowitzBut the 'Chinese FDA' is worse.Jul 11 05:23
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:23
yuhongActually, I am not sure.Jul 11 05:24
yuhongAnyway, see my point.Jul 11 05:24
yuhongI think the fundemental issue in the end, is that corporations only care about profit.Jul 11 05:24
schestowitzThey should also care about rules.Jul 11 05:25
yuhongYep, but they don't, and that is unfortunate.Jul 11 05:25
schestowitzThe regulatory system fails to function. it's easily violated by influence.Jul 11 05:25
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:25
yuhongThere is a fundemental problem here, any solutions?Jul 11 05:25
schestowitzShowing where the system fails is one option. USPTO, ISO, etc.Jul 11 05:26
yuhongMaybe, but I am talking about the "corporations only care about profit" problem.Jul 11 05:27
schestowitzThat's down to education.Jul 11 05:27
schestowitzIn many countries, children are raises to admire and cherish the mighty buck. There's more to that in life.Jul 11 05:28
yuhongMaybe, but that is not what I am talking about.Jul 11 05:29
yuhongShareholders are one factor.Jul 11 05:29
schestowitzHigher fines need to be imposed.Jul 11 05:30
schestowitzDisobeying rules should have punishments that are severe enough to scare shareholder. Look at Microsoft's profits declining in the last quarter, partly due to fines.Jul 11 05:30
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yuhongThat can help.Jul 11 05:38
yuhongChanging shareholder attitude can help as well.Jul 11 05:39
schestowitzWell, bad behaviour isn't tied to fines yet. Shareholders rarely care about behaviour or products. They care about stock value.Jul 11 05:40
yuhongThat is exactly the problem I am trying to solve.Jul 11 05:41
yuhongAny solutions?Jul 11 05:43
schestowitzYou can never solve it. It's human nature. It's why CO2 emissions would never be reduced and the planet is, assuming education isn't properly used, doomed to see some islands flooded.Jul 11 05:43
schestowitzYou can reduce crime, but you can't make it end.Jul 11 05:43
yuhongYep, that is what I mean by changing shareholder attitude.Jul 11 05:43
schestowitzThe angle explored by Larry Lessig, for example, is the fact that shareholder  bend the law to their interest. The US political system permits it.Jul 11 05:44
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:44
yuhongWhat really matters is that it is hard enough to break the law that people don't do it.Jul 11 05:45
yuhongIn fact, substitute the word "law" for "DRM" to see what really matters in DRM.Jul 11 05:46
schestowitzWho would make such a law. It's a fox-hen house thing.Jul 11 05:46
schestowitzThe corrupting force will ensure that illegal (should be illegal) things like lobbying can prevail.Jul 11 05:47
yuhongUnfortunately the Internet makes it easy to distibute the DRM-breaker's work.Jul 11 05:47
schestowitzDRM is about change of business model for increased profit (own versus rent)Jul 11 05:47
yuhongYep, there is a reason why DRM on things you rent matters less than DRM on things that you "own".Jul 11 05:48
schestowitzEben Moglen: "Everybody is connected to everybody else, all data that can be shared will be shared will be shared: get used to it."Jul 11 05:48
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:48
schestowitzForget about the Internet. People can sing to each other, they can swap CDs, USB drivers, etc.Jul 11 05:48
yuhongDongles have an advantage here.Jul 11 05:49
schestowitzWhat's needed is a new model, and it's /not/ DRM.Jul 11 05:49
yuhongBecause it is physical hardware, and physical hardware cannot be copied by using the Internet.Jul 11 05:49
yuhongI agree on the new business model.Jul 11 05:49
yuhongAll of the major music stores are selling music with no DRM.Jul 11 05:50
schestowitzInfinitely-duplicable things enjoy a high-bandwidth transaction and portability. Some companies still try to illegalise FOSS (original work on copylefted code)Jul 11 05:50
yuhongYep, again dongles have an advantage here for copy protection of software.Jul 11 05:50
schestowitzThe RIAA wants music DRM back. Either way, you now end up with ACTA, which means that you live in  gestapo state where threats make the law.Jul 11 05:51
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:51
yuhongDMCA, for example.Jul 11 05:51
schestowitzThat too.Jul 11 05:51
yuhongTelecom immunity is another example.Jul 11 05:51
schestowitzI still perceive the fight from Free software as one that opposes corruption.Jul 11 05:52
yuhongYep.Jul 11 05:52
schestowitzTelecon immunity? Well, but there's 'terrorism', no?Jul 11 05:52
yuhongAnd the best way to solve this problem is again to change shareholder's attitudes.Jul 11 05:52
schestowitzGo ahead and try.Jul 11 05:53
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schestowitzI found this a moment ago: 11 05:53
yuhongBTW, terrorism is a common excuse used by the Bush administration.Jul 11 05:54
schestowitzIt's the IDC shills (paid by Microsoft, as usual), joined by the BSA which last week lobbied to illegaise Free software on behalf of Microsoft et al.Jul 11 05:54
yuhongIt isn't just MS, however, the music industry blame lost CD sales on piracy as well.Jul 11 05:55
yuhongBTW, on the people who wipe out Linux on new PCs for pirated Windows, how many do it?Jul 11 05:57
schestowitzIt's not even "piracy".Jul 11 05:57
schestowitzIt's not "pirated".Jul 11 05:57
schestowitzSee, that's just an insult.Jul 11 05:57
schestowitzAnd media people absorb the words.Jul 11 05:57
yuhongYep, there is a page on the FSF talking about that.Jul 11 05:58
schestowitzI'd love to see the media starting to absorb the word "criminal" when referring to the moguls.Jul 11 05:58
yuhongUnlikely, however.Jul 11 05:58
schestowitzYes, I know. :-)Jul 11 05:58
schestowitzThe problem is that the weathy is very influential so they get to glofitfy themselves in the press while portraying others as crooks.Jul 11 05:58
yuhongAnyway, I just treat the word "piracy" as a synonym for "illegal copying".Jul 11 05:59
schestowitzIt changes perception, but there's that old theory about hypocriisy and how the Big Ship thinks of the small guy in the dingy as a "pirate"Jul 11 05:59
yuhongAnd it is not limited to just software.Jul 11 05:59
schestowitzBig = good; small = evil.Jul 11 05:59
yuhongI agree that this is not good.Jul 11 05:59
yuhongRadio started as "piracy" and the record industry solved the problem.Jul 11 06:00
schestowitzI think of piracy as "copyright infringement"Jul 11 06:00
yuhongYep.Jul 11 06:00
yuhongBTW, the word "consumer" is a misnomer, I was actually thinking about having two classes of people.Jul 11 06:01
schestowitzWhile it's easy to do so (sometimes accidentally, e.g. if you save a Web page to your HDD), it's a violation of a law called "copyrights".Jul 11 06:01
yuhongConsumer, and producer.Jul 11 06:01
schestowitzYes, consumer is another 'shareholder terminology"Jul 11 06:01
yuhongYep.Jul 11 06:01
yuhongAnd it is unfair.Jul 11 06:01
schestowitzBut you don't get to name thing. It's the influential that maps things.Jul 11 06:02
yuhongYep.Jul 11 06:02
schestowitzThere are parallels in politics, but that's another story.Jul 11 06:02
yuhongBTW, Palladium is evil, but the Fritz chip can be used for purposes other than that.Jul 11 06:03
schestowitzBudging this on topic, Novell too plays a role now in Micrsosoft's perception shaping for FOSS.Jul 11 06:03
yuhongYep.Jul 11 06:03
schestowitzIt actually FUDs free software where it does not fit its definition. Novell is back to vanity days (Netware monopoly)Jul 11 06:03
yuhongBTW, how did samba respond to the doc release by MS.Jul 11 06:03
schestowitzspeaking of unjust system, see this:Jul 11 06:04
schestowitzJust in: 11 06:05
schestowitzIn American, if you're rich, you can ignore the law and get away with it.Jul 11 06:05
schestowitzSame with Robert Bach at Microsoft. He was caught insider-trading last years and never even investigated by the SEC as a result. In America, being rich means being above the law.Jul 11 06:05
yuhongI know, but I care more about how much shareholders care about the public than about thisJul 11 06:06
schestowitz 11 06:06
schestowitz 11 06:06
schestowitzFrom AP (f* em for the new policy): "It gives the appearance that, 'I had a partner in crime and it was Steve Jobs,'" Munster said.Jul 11 06:07
schestowitzMicrosoft too: (Microsoft's past stock options practice poses questions)Jul 11 06:07
schestowitz 11 06:07
yuhongBTW, the Sound Recorder in Vista default to saving as wma, unless you are using the N edition that is without media player, then it defaults to saving to WAV.Jul 11 06:15
schestowitzThey want to spread their proprietary, DRM-ready garbage. Later they try to sell Red Hat 'licences' to these filetypes. The company still plays dirty. It should use industry standards or royalty-free formats.Jul 11 06:16
yuhongThank EU for stopping them.Jul 11 06:16
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schestowitzNot yet. It's not over until "the fat lady sings" (or gets bribed)Jul 11 06:22
-dmwaters-{global notice} Good day folks, it appears that there are over all internet problems that are causing us to drop quite a few users. Hopefully things will resolve themselves soon. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!Jul 11 06:25
yuhong "the fat lady sings": what do you mean?Jul 11 06:31
schestowitzIt's a nice phrase:'t_over_'til_the_fat_lady_singsJul 11 06:33
schestowitzWatch this news: 11 06:34
yuhongBTW, on the EU lawsuit, how did samba respond to the docs released by MS thanks to this lawsuit.Jul 11 06:36
schestowitzProbably too well at the time, but Microsoft wants 'Samba tax'.Jul 11 06:36
yuhongYep.Jul 11 06:36
yuhongBut luckily that is not what they did.Jul 11 06:37
yuhongI am talking about the docs however, not the tax.Jul 11 06:37
schestowitzNot quite. I'm not following this closely, but I think they want to make 'pulling a Samba' the norm, i.e. charge projects $10,000 for docs (+per copy royalties). They are losing it at Redmond, so they try to set precedence, also with Novell.Jul 11 06:38
schestowitzThey make it convenient for those that sell out, e.g. Novell, Linspire.Jul 11 06:38
yuhongYep, but luckily they ended up making it so that only one organization pay the cost.Jul 11 06:39
yuhongThat organization in this case is the PFIF.Jul 11 06:39
yuhongBTW, again as I said, supporting OOXML is not evil.Jul 11 06:40
yuhongBut claiming that it is as open as ODF because of such support is.Jul 11 06:40
schestowitzYou miss the point.Jul 11 06:40
yuhongsupporting I mean opening and saving OOXML files.Jul 11 06:41
schestowitzCare to implement it? 12,000 pages? Then, if it's FOSS, Microsoft can sue you.Jul 11 06:41
yuhongYep.Jul 11 06:41
schestowitzThe whole thing is a fiasco that gets worse. I'll post about it later today.Jul 11 06:41
yuhongBut supporting it is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.Jul 11 06:41
schestowitzISO is equally corrupted if it thinks it can sweep abuses of the rules under the rug.Jul 11 06:42
yuhongYep.Jul 11 06:42
yuhongBut supporting it is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.Jul 11 06:42
yuhongsupporting I mean opening and saving files.Jul 11 06:42
schestowitzBeing more evil than something else doesn't make it "not evil"Jul 11 06:42
yuhongDo you mean less?Jul 11 06:42
schestowitzIt's again that shareholders dilemma.Jul 11 06:43
schestowitzMicrosoft will be anti-fair competition as long as it wants to make more money. Its goals make it evil, by definition, and it has to change through regulation that balances things differently. Then, obeying the rules is a reward-worthy thing.Jul 11 06:44
yuhongI'd support both ODF and OOXML.Jul 11 06:44
yuhongAgain supporting I mean opening and OOXML files.Jul 11 06:44
yuhongAgain supporting I mean opening and saving files.Jul 11 06:44
schestowitzWhy multiple standards?Jul 11 06:44
yuhongThat is evil as well.Jul 11 06:44
schestowitzWould you like fragmentation that revolves around HDDVD and Blu-Ray too? Who benefits?Jul 11 06:45
yuhongI agree.Jul 11 06:45
yuhongBut supporting i mean adding support to a word processor for opening and saving.Jul 11 06:45
schestowitzAsk Van Der Beld (??? can't recall name) why there should be mutiple ones.Jul 11 06:45
yuhongI agree.Jul 11 06:45
yuhongBut supporting i mean adding support to a word processor for opening and saving.Jul 11 06:45
schestowitzHe said (using CD/DVD formats as an example): "you are well paid, shut up"Jul 11 06:46
yuhongAnd that is not hard.Jul 11 06:46
yuhongThat is not really true.Jul 11 06:46
yuhongThat is hard actually.Jul 11 06:46
yuhongBut my meaning of "support" here is different from your meaning.Jul 11 06:47
schestowitzODF is universal. It needn't collide with any app.Jul 11 06:47
yuhongI know.Jul 11 06:48
yuhong>But my meaning of "support" here is different from your meaning.Jul 11 06:48
schestowitzWhat is it then?Jul 11 06:49
yuhongsupport i mean adding support to a office suite for opening and saving.Jul 11 06:49
schestowitzYes, and all office suites could do that with ODF.Jul 11 06:51
yuhongOf course, and they should support (open and save) OOXML as well.Jul 11 06:52
schestowitzNo, OOXML should never have existed in the first place.Jul 11 06:52
yuhongIt is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.Jul 11 06:52
yuhongAnd they already do that.Jul 11 06:52
schestowitzIt's Microsoft's attempt to decommoditiseJul 11 06:52
schestowitzSame with the Web and stuff like ActiveX (+neglect of Web standards)Jul 11 06:53
yuhongEven "embarse and extend" is better, but it is too late.Jul 11 06:53
yuhongOffice 2007 and some OOXML docs has already come out.Jul 11 06:53
yuhongSupporting (opening and saving) it is at worst as evil as supporting .doc.Jul 11 06:53
yuhongAnd the suites already do that.Jul 11 06:53
schestowitzThe first step should be to strike OOXML out of governments.Jul 11 06:54
schestowitzIt needn't penetrate any place where it doesn't exist, for the scam that it is for starters.Jul 11 06:54
yuhongYep. But this is a different topic.Jul 11 06:55
yuhongBTW, I just installed Sun's ODF converter on top of Office.Jul 11 06:55
schestowitzYou could get even better support with OOo or Symphony .Jul 11 06:56
yuhongI am talking about whether a word processor support OOXML, not which organizations are supporting OOXML.Jul 11 06:56
yuhongNeoOffice support opening OOXML.Jul 11 06:56
yuhongAnd that good.Jul 11 06:56
yuhongBut claiming that it is as open as ODF is bad, and that is what Novell is doing.Jul 11 06:57
schestowitzNovell is a Microsoft company in the making (in my eyes). I don't take anything it says serious (on FOSS).Jul 11 06:57
schestowitz*seriouslyJul 11 06:58
yuhongBTW, on the matter of Apple, a lot of the mixed records of Apple on open source is i think due to internal politics.Jul 11 07:00
yuhongiPhone is a good example.Jul 11 07:00
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schestowitzAhJul 11 07:01
schestowitzYes, I mentioned that yesterdayJul 11 07:01
schestowitzThey misuse open source like a dead horse.Jul 11 07:01
schestowitzOne of the most locked down things (software, hardware, carriers) is trying to get 'open source' type publicity. Even Microsoft is more open.Jul 11 07:02
yuhongInternal politics are a factor here.Jul 11 07:02
yuhongWhether locking down is a good thing is another factor.Jul 11 07:02
yuhong*matterJul 11 07:03
schestowitzit's not. It permits Trust (in the antitrust sense).Jul 11 07:04
yuhongI'm sure those in charge in open source at Apple advocates open source.Jul 11 07:04
yuhongThat is why I say internal politics are a factor here.Jul 11 07:05
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schestowitzThe press is humming with that stupid article that calls IBM Symphony "open  source" (it's not)Jul 11 07:27
schestowitzIBM is still faking it. I've spoken to the journalist who published this and referred him to IBM's Sutor at the end. IBM is a proprietary software company, as usual.Jul 11 07:27
schestowitzMental note: "Eclipse, Microsoft, Sun and Zend are RedMonk customers, while ActiveState (Komodo) and MacroMates (TextMate) are not." 11 07:31
schestowitzSo they are paid by Microsoft now.Jul 11 07:31
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schestowitzPetoKraus: I said I'd write it today. I just did. (you'd have to look back at old links too, for context at the very least)Jul 11 10:46
PetoKrauscheers manJul 11 10:48
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schestowitzThe anti-Linux activists will have a field trip over that news from the Philippines about a school, so be prepared (it has just been published). Microsoft uses application lock-in to stifle portability (ActiveX, DirectX, COM, etc) and this one is no exception, just like in Vienna.Jul 11 14:42
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schestowitzSpinola du jour: Characterising abusive Microsoft execs as "Linux fans".Jul 11 16:51
schestowitzAnother blitz in the making (Linus dissing to be expected): 11 17:25
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yuhongFrom 11 22:58
yuhong"Well, there is a paradox here. Remember back in WWDC 2008, they talked about how the "task manager" is bad. Another reason is that it is too technical for the average user. The average user will most likely blame the phone instead."Jul 11 22:58
yuhong"And add the fact that the average user don't care about "openness", and see my point? "Jul 11 22:58
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yuhongFrom 11 23:48
yuhongWell, there is a paradox here. Remember back in WWDC 2008, they talked about how the "task manager" is bad. Another reason is that it is too technical for the average user. The average user will most likely blame the phone instead. And add the fact that the average user don't care about "openness", and see my point?Jul 11 23:48
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