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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 2nd, 2008

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schestowitzheh. http://www.kansascity.com/105/s... "The mother of the open-source world is the Linux computer operating system fathered by Linus Torvalds in 1991 with help from developers around the world. Linux source code is open to anyone, and people fiddle with it all the time. They then share their improvements with other computer programmers and, by and large, the most elegant improvements take hold."Sep 02 08:38
schestowitzI've sent some polite corrections.Sep 02 08:38
kentmaRMS must get more than a little frustrated at the credit for so much of his work going to Linus T, particularly as Mr T. isn't, apparently, even all that pro-GPL anyway.Sep 02 08:40
schestowitzYes, it says "open source" above (that too came after Linux).Sep 02 08:40
zoobabhttp://stopsoftwarepatents.org/pr:september-24...Sep 02 08:41
schestowitzBut there are other issues. Linux is  a platform or kernel. Most of the operating system belongs elsewhere.Sep 02 08:41
schestowitzThanks, zoobabSep 02 08:41
kentmacomputer software is now something between a creeper plant like a strawberry, and an onion in layering.Sep 02 08:43
kentmaThe kernel sits in the middle of it all, of course, but there are layers and layers around it before anything really sees the light of day.Sep 02 08:44
schestowitzBSDs use a lot of GPL software. Even (Open)Solaris...Sep 02 08:45
schestowitzYou could happily run a machine with GNOME or KDE and without Linux. That would feel pretty much the same. The same cannot be said about stripping everything but the kernel.Sep 02 08:46
kentmaThis is the big advantage of maximal layering and open-source (as opposed to open APIs, which do not work so well).Sep 02 08:46
kentmaThe better the layering is, the easier it is to change eg., the kernel.Sep 02 08:47
kentmaAside from anything else, it's worth noting that Linux is not just one kernel, in fact, it's been hundreds of different kernels over the years.Sep 02 08:47
kentmaThe fact that they can be shared by much of the same software speaks volumes for the advantages of open libc and so on.Sep 02 08:48
schestowitzLinux has a good pool of drivers.Sep 02 08:48
schestowitzIt's still monolithic.Sep 02 08:48
kentmathe kernel itself is partially monolithic, partially modular.  It will probably need a re-design in due course, in order to look more like the "hurd", because it will, eventually, be unmaintainable, I think.  It might be enough to have more structure around the module layer.Sep 02 08:49
schestowitzYet it's very amusing how Microsoft calls "Linux" the #1 rival when it actually means to say "Free software (GPL)", such as the Ubuntu system or Red Hat.Sep 02 08:49
kentmaagreed!  :-)Sep 02 08:50
schestowitzThis one is new: http://www.gnu.org/fry/happy-birthday-to-gnu.html   Fry explains the GNU system. Microsoft and Apple try to downplay or hide the philosophy behind that other system, which is _very_ different by nature. The simplification serves them.Sep 02 08:51
*kentma runs along to do some organising - back later...Sep 02 08:52
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PetoKrausthere's no de Icaza in the titles ;)Sep 02 09:41
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trmancohttp://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...Sep 02 10:29
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schestowitzGood headline: The Beginning of the End for the ISO? : http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolbox/open-s...Sep 02 13:18
*benJIman wonders if schestowitz saw http://dev-loki.blogspot.com/2008/09/about...Sep 02 13:19
benJIman'Believe it or not, we're not "Novell shills"'Sep 02 13:19
schestowitzLoki is not impartial.Sep 02 13:21
schestowitz"Actually, after talking to Jeff Jaffee (Novell's CTO)..." Blah, blah, blah... very independent.Sep 02 13:22
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schestowitzhttp://commit-digest.org/issues/2008-08-31/ . No Mono. :-)Sep 02 15:50
benJImanschestowitz: Jeff came to talk to openSUSE people last week.Sep 02 15:53
schestowitzWaugh?Sep 02 15:54
benJImanJaffe.Sep 02 15:54
schestowitzHe's responsible for that horrid deal, y'know?Sep 02 15:54
benJImanWell one of those, he is CTO.Sep 02 15:56
schestowitzYes, but he participated more on this based on what i could gather (I read many Novell (blogs). Do you happen to know if he even /uses/ Free software?Sep 02 16:02
benJImanI do not know.Sep 02 16:05
benJImanI was not in this particular meeting btw.Sep 02 16:06
schestowitzFor a technical officer, that's just embarrassing. He doesn't 'get' what his company purports to be selling.Sep 02 16:06
benJImanWhy is it embarrassing that I do not know?Sep 02 16:06
benJImanI think it's more likely than not that he uses SLED etc, but wouldn't like to say.Sep 02 16:07
schestowitzReminds me of all those 'open source' bloggers who do Webcasts that are not available to anything but 2 non-Free platforms.Sep 02 16:07
schestowitzLet me do some searching on his blog. :-)Sep 02 16:08
schestowitzVolkers uses a Mac.Sep 02 16:08
benJImanI'm not convinced that he writes his blog.Sep 02 16:08
benJImanHe managed to post a comment in the third person on openSUSE news ^_^.Sep 02 16:08
schestowitz*gasp* He's from IBM. http://www.infoworld.com/article/05...Sep 02 16:09
schestowitzJust like RonSep 02 16:09
schestowitzThe plot thickens. [sarcasm /]Sep 02 16:10
benJImanO_oSep 02 16:24
schestowitzI'll write something shortly.Sep 02 16:25
benJImanWhat Pascal wrote on his blog was accurate btw.Sep 02 16:26
schestowitzWhich part?Sep 02 16:27
benJImanAll of it.Sep 02 16:27
schestowitzI don't want to quote wrong things. :-)Sep 02 16:27
benJImanParticularly even the Novell employees in the openSUSE community and board are not pressured by Novell upper management into doing stuff, which is an impression you seem to have.Sep 02 16:27
schestowitzNo, not quite.Sep 02 16:28
schestowitzIt is in their interest to see Novell succeedSep 02 16:28
schestowitzThere's no trust when there's money on the table (Lessig) and that's illustrated by the damage of money inside Debian (2006-2007)Sep 02 16:28
benJImanIt is also in their interest to see openSUSE succeed.Sep 02 16:29
schestowitzYes, but the two are related.Sep 02 16:29
benJImanEven novell upper management know that.Sep 02 16:29
schestowitzThere's money at the top, so there's no trust where Novell's decisions are involved. For similar reasons, I rejected Shane's offer to let me add my AdSense to the site. I won't write this for money.Sep 02 16:30
benJImanWhat do you mean by trust in this context.Sep 02 16:31
benJImanMoney is only one motivating factor.Sep 02 16:31
benJImanAre you suggesting you are impartial because you are not paid for what you write?Sep 02 16:32
schestowitzTo take the points in turn: 1) Trust in this context  is a position where personal gain doesn't surpass the group's benefit; 2) Money is immediate reward; there are others like bribes with gifts (Novell did this too); 3) I don't write provocatively for gain (e.g. advertising). I write things as I see them.Sep 02 16:34
benJImanI'm afraid I don't understand your first point.Sep 02 16:35
benJImanSpeaking of Jeff - seems he's just blogged about the microsoft agreement.Sep 02 16:36
benJImanhttp://www.novell.com/ctoblog/?p=84Sep 02 16:36
schestowitzre: first point... Novell is a good example at a corporate level. For immediate gain (Microsoft 'compensation money') it sold GNU/Linux out.Sep 02 16:38
schestowitzYes, seen it, haven't read it yet (in my RSS feeds to be read later)Sep 02 16:38
benJImanYour opinion.Sep 02 16:39
schestowitzNovell keeps changing its story.Sep 02 16:39
schestowitzhttp://news.cnet.com/1606-2_3-6132143.html (Jeff on patents)Sep 02 16:40
*benJIman wonders whether schestowitz reads planetsuse.Sep 02 16:49
*schestowitz thinks desktop-side aggregators are more suitable for mass-handlingSep 02 16:50
benJImanThe planets do have feeds, and planet maintainers do work for you of finding new relavant feeds to add.Sep 02 16:51
*tessier_ loves his rss readerSep 02 16:52
schestowitzWhich one, tessier_ ?Sep 02 16:52
tessier_It has totally changed how I get news on the net over the last couple of years.Sep 02 16:52
tessier_I use sage.Sep 02 16:52
*schestowitz looksSep 02 16:52
tessier_It's handy to have it built into the web browser since they are all just websites anyway.Sep 02 16:52
schestowitzLooks yummy. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/02/agai...Sep 02 16:53
schestowitzOops. Wrong paste. http://sage.mozdev.org/install/Sep 02 16:53
benJImantessier_: Does sage remove duplicates?Sep 02 16:54
benJImane.g. if you get the same blog from multiple planet feeds.Sep 02 16:54
tessier_Hrmm...I doubt it. I've never noticed it as a problem. I think sage works a bit different from most rss readers.Sep 02 16:55
tessier_I tried using google's reader but didn't like it so much. Also don't like storing all of my feeds in google.Sep 02 16:55
schestowitzI found some nice tricks in Thunderbird.. for handling similar topics efficiently.Sep 02 16:55
tessier_Such as? I've been debating moving back to mutt.Sep 02 16:57
tessier_I need to learn some Thunderbird keyboard shortcuts or something.Sep 02 16:58
schestowitztessier_: TB has some good plugins, but for feeds, the value of TB is in its handling of RSS items as mail, so it can be tagged, combined, searched/filtered based on subject line, can have "delete duplicate" applied to it based on custom criteria... I was using RSSOwl before TB. I didn't try many different wares.Sep 02 17:21
tessier_schestowitz: You have a feed reader plugin for TB?Sep 02 17:29
schestowitzIt's built in since 1.5Sep 02 17:29
schestowitzSlightly buggy in 2.0, but just slightly.Sep 02 17:30
tessier_ah...I'll have to check that out.Sep 02 17:30
schestowitzNovell turns them all away: http://weblog.infoworld.com/virtualization/archives...Sep 02 18:14
ReverseGTRso you think this is a sign that Novell is a sinking ship?Sep 02 19:00
ReverseGTRan interesting trend now is that there is a larger push towards virtual machine developmentSep 02 19:01
schestowitzThere are more directors leaving.Sep 02 19:01
tessier_ReverseGTR: Novell has many execs. A couple leaving doesn't mean much.Sep 02 19:02
schestowitzI don't know when this last one left, but I don't think it's related to the latest results.Sep 02 19:02
schestowitzI will try to show in a post that it's part of the trend (Microsoft has a similar deflation and it lost about $100 billion in value)Sep 02 19:02
schestowitztessier_: true, there are many, but quite a lot seem to be leaving. Red Hat ain't doing brilliantly, either.Sep 02 19:03
ReverseGTRtessier_: well, for such a relatively small company compared to the titans of M$, Oracle and Sun this must be worse sign then how it is happening to those othersSep 02 19:04
tessier_ReverseGTR: Still a very big company for two execs leaving to be an indicator of anything.Sep 02 19:06
schestowitzThe editor I wrote for in the past (not related to blogs) did a lousy interview with the scum at Microsoft. Jose seems to have rebutted: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_s...Sep 02 19:07
schestowitztessier_: how many ship-jumping directors does it take for a company worth $2.3 billion in order for it to be statistically meaningful?Sep 02 19:08
ReverseGTRschestowitz: there is nothing odd about M$'s answer they just want to take open sourcecode, reverse engineer alittle, add a few features and declare it proprietary :DSep 02 19:09
tessier_schestowitz: How many directors do they have in that company?Sep 02 19:10
ReverseGTRtessier_: probably not as many as the afformentionedSep 02 19:11
schestowitzAD, OOXML, XAML... you know the drill...http://www.blendernation.com/2008/05/13/micr...Sep 02 19:11
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schestowitztessier_: is there a way to find this out?Sep 02 19:12
tessier_schestowitz: No idea. But it would seen to be necessary to put their departures into context.Sep 02 19:12
schestowitzContext: they came into a new company and did't like what they saw.Sep 02 19:13
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?sourc...Sep 02 19:13
ReverseGTRbtw, Google's Chrome browser came out today and if anyone is interested in the link http://tools.google.com/chrome . I hope this is not considered spammingSep 02 19:22
schestowitzHa! 'Microsoft's' ZDNet give Novell a blog: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community/Sep 02 19:22
tessier_Chrome looks awesomeSep 02 19:24
tessier_I just read their little comic book about itSep 02 19:24
tessier_Excellent explanationSep 02 19:24
tessier_I'm really looking forward to trying it.Sep 02 19:24
tessier_Glad to see a worthy free competitor to Firefox. Hopefully they will continue to sponge ideas off of each other.Sep 02 19:24
schestowitzReverseGTR: see http://blogs.computerworld.com/the_real_r...Sep 02 19:24
ReverseGTRtessier_: at least Google is more forthcoming about it, even though how they treated Android developers leaves much to be desiredSep 02 19:25
tessier_The whole one-process-per-tab idea is brilliant and long overdue.Sep 02 19:25
tessier_Also I like the new security model and sandboxing.Sep 02 19:25
tessier_I always have a zillion tabs open.Sep 02 19:25
schestowitzMultiple desktops are useful too.Sep 02 19:26
tessier_And I have two cores now and will probably have least 4 in my next machine.Sep 02 19:26
schestowitzYou can have mutiple Web browser windows.Sep 02 19:26
ReverseGTRschestowitz: sure but if I understand what you are getting at most people like to organize a program or two for each desktopSep 02 19:28
schestowitzLots of links here: http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/30066Sep 02 19:29
tessier_schestowitz: Nice article on why they are really making chrome and I fully agree.Sep 02 19:33
schestowitzReverseGTR: I don't put the same program on mutiple desktops, but I used a form of analogy. There are also tabbed windows managers for X/GNU.Sep 02 19:35
schestowitz*windowSep 02 19:35
ReverseGTRschestowitz: alright, my misunderstandingSep 02 19:36
schestowitzDesktop metaphors are very physical. More abstract desktops would probably improve productivity.Sep 02 19:37
ReverseGTRschestowitz: but do the current kernels and APIs are able to truely permit that?Sep 02 19:40
schestowitzYes, there are hooks for input/output that just send back signals. Multi-touch is coming soon to the mainline kernel. Here's an example: We look at Web *pages* (page as in a book), but it doesn't need to be constrained. I know academics who still store pages like they used to organise references lists, but that's not useful. Tagging and linking is better.Sep 02 19:41
ReverseGTRschestowitz: but what if those links are dead? ;)Sep 02 19:48
schestowitzThey never die. I have scripts. :-)Sep 02 19:49
ReverseGTRschestowitz: but once the links are down the credibility of the source goes with it, data on physical storage will always have a useSep 02 19:50
schestowitzWhile you can't show the original, you can provide a snippet (fair use).Sep 02 19:51
ReverseGTRschestowitz: but it sadly will not be enough to hold up in current legal affairs if you want to get into that.Sep 02 19:51
schestowitzYes, that I know.Sep 02 19:53
schestowitzWhat's the alternative?Sep 02 19:53
schestowitzI ask because I need to know (tone can't be conveyed in text)Sep 02 19:53
ReverseGTRschestowitz: Contacts, keeping in touch with those you are obtaining the source fromSep 02 19:54
schestowitzI have the names of authors.Sep 02 19:54
schestowitzThere's also IA (Internet Archive)Sep 02 19:54
ReverseGTRschestowitz: but you also need to show that the authors endorse the use of their work in your point of viewSep 02 19:54
ReverseGTRschestowitz: why and what do you want to know about the legalities of keeping credible sources?Sep 02 19:55
schestowitzIs there a better option really?Even a tape recording can be faked.Sep 02 19:57
ReverseGTRschestowitz: you do not have to go as far as a tape recording but just some typed proof that the author you sourced your article from is aware of the work you did. So if anyone contacts them to ask about its validity.Sep 02 19:58
ReverseGTRschestowitz: what do you want to know about this for?Sep 02 19:59
schestowitzLinks break sometimes.Sep 02 20:01
schestowitzBoycott Microsoft had all its link break some weeks/months ago.Sep 02 20:02
schestowitzIn case I wish to send someone a reference to it, then I typically have just the snippets. In order for articles to be used against someone (I saw this happening in private E-mails), this could be important.Sep 02 20:02
ReverseGTRschestowitz: if you can try to get in touch with the author of the articles if you can and find out if there are alternate urlsSep 02 20:02
schestowitzThe word which is contained in article is often less relevant than exact quotes and names of people, who can be approached and brought o court for a testimony. IANAL.Sep 02 20:03
ReverseGTRmaybe the autor blogs for multiple websites and posts the same articles on eitherSep 02 20:03
ReverseGTRschestowitz: who are you preparing to sue?Sep 02 20:04
schestowitzThat's true.Sep 02 20:04
schestowitzI recently managed to hunt down this one (with help of a friend): http://etheridge.ca/articles/e...Sep 02 20:04
schestowitz“For instance, Microsoft, the world’s most valuable company, declared a profit of $4.5 billion in 1998; when the cost of options awarded that year, plus the change in the value of outstanding options, is deducted, the firm made a loss of $18 billion, according to Smithers.”Sep 02 20:05
schestowitzReverseGTR: no, I'm not suing anyone.Sep 02 20:05
schestowitzIf anything, I'm in a position where I need to be prepared to defend what I type (not necessarily for legal reasons at all.Sep 02 20:05
ReverseGTRschestowitz: a good model to use as refference is how well maintained and unbiased wikis work. Ecspecially those on medical science and technologySep 02 20:06
schestowitzAre you suggesting setting up Wikis too (I know you mean something different, but what if)?Sep 02 20:08
ReverseGTRschestowitz: if they involve specific court cases then there is a less likely chance they would be taken down. But then you would need plenty of references from not only authors but from the courthouse where it was tried. Sometimes you can look up when a trial took place on a courthouse's website.Sep 02 20:09
ReverseGTRI meant less likely chance they would be taken downSep 02 20:10
ReverseGTRWikipedia doesn't take kindly to articles that may display a biasSep 02 20:10
schestowitzReverseGTR: bias is relative.Sep 02 20:10
ReverseGTRalso once you create a wiki always saved the source you used or created because people can always have a chance at editing itSep 02 20:11
schestowitzReverseGTR: I know about attitude towards weasel words, but there's lots of bias there. Either way, I hate Wikis. I have 3 of them (one is private) and the other two are spammed to hell. I've spammed more time cleaning them over the years than I did write in them.Sep 02 20:12
schestowitz*spent more timeSep 02 20:12
ReverseGTRschestowitz: I also remember a website that immitated wikipedia but is for posting articles for imoral activies by companies and governmentsSep 02 20:14
ReverseGTRI remember a company through a court in California tried to take it down or block the url in the USSep 02 20:14
schestowitzReverseGTR: Source Watch is one example.Sep 02 20:15
schestowitzWikipedia's articles on the same lobbying arms SW covers are restrained and watered downSep 02 20:15
schestowitzhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/media/20...Sep 02 20:16
ReverseGTRschestowitz: I think you have a good chance of defending yourself against anything written aside from an army of lawyers :)Sep 02 20:16
ReverseGTRyea thats the website, WikileaksSep 02 20:17
schestowitzReverseGTR: care to explain/elaborate?Sep 02 20:18
schestowitzI hope you aren't referring to the legal /mud' SCO gave PJ.Sep 02 20:18
ReverseGTRschestowitz: what do you mean?Sep 02 20:19
ReverseGTRschestowitz: I was just stating wikileaks.org is a good website to post information without fear of spammingSep 02 20:19
schestowitz"defending yourself against anything written aside from an army of lawyers"Sep 02 20:19
schestowitzFrivolous suits?Sep 02 20:19
schestowitzI guess it boils down to the word "You"Sep 02 20:20
ReverseGTRschestowitz: oh, I was just saying lawyers are honed in the skill of testifying against the facts, it is what they were trained and passed an exam to do in most casesSep 02 20:20
ReverseGTRI remember I had to plead guilty in a case I was completely sure a police officer had no proof I was speeding in because I knew the lawyer would figure out a way to twist my motives to the judge as though as I am covering up something. So I plead guilty to paying $439 for a "Careless Driving" ticket instead of testifying for a speeding ticket where they claimed on the careless driving ticket that I was going 84 in a 65mph zoneSep 02 20:22
ReverseGTRwell I didn't have to, but since I was not as well versed as the Procecutioner I would have had a really hard time convincing the judge otherwiseSep 02 20:22
ReverseGTRat the time my main motive was to avoid getting points on my licenseSep 02 20:24
schestowitzI never got a ticket myself, but I'm still young...:-SSep 02 20:26
ReverseGTRschestowitz: just watch what comes up behind you and move over to the next lane if possibleSep 02 20:27
schestowitzThis doesn't stop the munchkins from spreading libel, e.g. http://help.lockergnome.com/linux/NEWS-R... (they put this lie all over the place)Sep 02 20:27
ReverseGTRthe gaurdian link is dead ;)Sep 02 20:28
schestowitzHeh. That's intentional... wha t the trolls want.Sep 02 20:29
ReverseGTRwhy is a seemingly indivisual willing to attempt a smear compaign against you. That is even too far flung for most trolls :PSep 02 20:30
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?sourc...Sep 02 20:32
schestowitzThey have all sort of lies that they repeat over and over Goebbels style and hoping that something will stick with an innocent and naive reader.Sep 02 20:33
ReverseGTRschestowitz: its funny and at the same time impressive that you are getting a lot of attentionSep 02 20:34
ReverseGTRI didn't know that you blogged about your sex changeSep 02 20:35
schestowitz:-| It's a lie, you know.Sep 02 20:35
ReverseGTRand you said it on a Google board on Creatism too, that takes balls which you now physically lack ;)Sep 02 20:36
schestowitzThe nastier ones they did are letters to my bosses and colleagues, with copies posted under pseudonyms publicly. Also filled with libel and intended to get me in trouble. That's what got me into studying Microsoft's Slog Culture, back in 2006ish.Sep 02 20:37
ReverseGTRschestowitz: maybe they secretly admire your work and want to increase your work ethic on the issue?Sep 02 20:37
schestowitzHow so? What do you mean?Sep 02 20:39
schestowitzBTW, I've just checked USENET. The Munch ins are now citing the CNET FUD about Brazil. That was predictable. I wrote about it twice last week. Microsoft plants poison, then cites it everywhere.Sep 02 20:39
ReverseGTRschestowitz: just twisted logic that these smear people really just want you to post more about Novell and Microsoft's immoral tactics by posing as advocates or trying to limit your other opporutinities in life so you focus more on thisSep 02 20:39
schestowitzWell, effectively that's true.Sep 02 20:40
schestowitzIf it were not for the smears, I would probably just go into industry and make money; instead, I choose to find answar to something which I feel I'm close to cracking.Sep 02 20:40
schestowitz*answersSep 02 20:40
ReverseGTRschestowitz: do what you feel is right, but remember sometimes it is not always good for youSep 02 20:42
schestowitzIn what sense?Sep 02 20:42
ReverseGTRschestowitz: well Vincent Vango kept on painting even though the quest to find the best place as well as commiting himself to it drove him to depression and eventually suicide. But it created some of the most historical work in the western world for generations to comeSep 02 20:43
schestowitzWell, that's an odd comparison. Van Gogh?Sep 02 20:46
schestowitzVan Gogh was not understood at his time. The same cannot be said about a collaborative culture and Free software, which gradually thrives more and more.Sep 02 20:48
ReverseGTRhe was understood by some people, but other still were afraid of him or just didn't appretiate what a fresh new style of art may bringSep 02 20:50
ReverseGTRwhat I am stating is sometimes people go beyond what they can tolerate if they feel they are accomplishing something that is not only very important to them but everyone around tooSep 02 20:51
schestowitzStill, to suggest a deficiency makes an odd comparison.Sep 02 20:51
schestowitzThere are those too.Sep 02 20:52
schestowitzJust watch RMS.Sep 02 20:52
schestowitzPJ hasn't taken a vacation in years.Sep 02 20:52
ReverseGTRschestowitz:  I am not familiar enough with this channel and community to know who or what PJ isSep 02 20:59
tessier_Vincent Vango?Sep 02 21:00
tessier_RMS is amazing. Far more benevolent than anyone else in the software business.Sep 02 21:01
ReverseGTRtessier_: I didn't know outright how to spell his name, alrightSep 02 21:01
ReverseGTRtessier_: when you create stuff that aids in climate watch for natural distasters and help charities better coordinate their efforts its no wonderSep 02 21:03
schestowitzRMS had a hard life, but he accomplished so much.Sep 02 21:03
schestowitzThere would be no (successful) Linux without him, yet Linux steals all the credit from him and his movement (FSF, GNU).Sep 02 21:03
ReverseGTRschestowitz: they just hate to admit they owe their ways to a businessSep 02 21:04
schestowitzWho, GNU?Sep 02 21:04
ReverseGTRschestowitz: RMSSep 02 21:04
tessier_schestowitz: I'm not such a big fan of whining about Linux stealin his credit.Sep 02 21:04
schestowitzMe neither. It looks petty.Sep 02 21:04
schestowitzI can see where hs's coming from, but it's not the name/crdit he's against.Sep 02 21:05
tessier_The FSF needs to hire a really hot, smart, and well spoken chick to tour instead of RMS.Sep 02 21:05
ReverseGTRschestowitz: also the GNU is a legal document in all shape and formSep 02 21:05
tessier_I bet someone like that could solicit enough donations to pay her exorbitant salary.Sep 02 21:05
schestowitzHe rightly has been arguing quite recently that people inherit a different philosophy from Linux Foundation et al.Sep 02 21:05
tessier_And spread GNU the way it should be spread.Sep 02 21:05
tessier_She could walk around with an ear piece going back to Stallman like Bush has with Karl Rove.Sep 02 21:05
tessier_He can put the words into her mouth and she can flash cleavage.Sep 02 21:06
schestowitzNovell is muchly related to this because the press wants to misunderstand critics and the 'market share'-obsessed fail to realise the dangers of non-Free s/wSep 02 21:06
ReverseGTRtessier: why don't they host it at skin joints while they're at itSep 02 21:06
tessier_I can see where he is coming from also btw. I just wish he would stop losing converts over it.Sep 02 21:06
schestowitzSee this new article: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osr...Sep 02 21:06
tessier_ReverseGTR: If that's where real business is done, sure.Sep 02 21:06
schestowitzFirst they take away the freedom with 'open source' and now it's stuff like the Fiundation and Linus forgetting where he came for (assuming he chose the GPL not just for popularity)Sep 02 21:08
schestowitzWatch the following old video... around 30mins or 46mins, IIRC...Sep 02 21:09
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTWCPoUt8wSep 02 21:09
schestowitzSorry for blabbering about it, but the point shown here is that he may have just used  the GNU GPL (he didn't use it at the very start) to attract more labour.Sep 02 21:10
tessier_I do agree with talking about Free Software instead of Open Source software. It's just a real shame that it is such a hard sell.Sep 02 21:13
tessier_We really need someone to hire a marketing company to build a brand around Free (As In Freedom) SoftwareSep 02 21:14
tessier_If Coke can sell us sugarwater that costs nothing to produce surely someone can get us to use stuff for free.Sep 02 21:14
ReverseGTRbut Coca Cola was not origonally sugar water, it just became more watered down over timeSep 02 21:14
tessier_But that's what it is now and we still buy it and they still spends many millions on successfully marketing it.Sep 02 21:15
schestowitzThat's true.Sep 02 21:15
ReverseGTRthen shame on those who still buy itSep 02 21:15
schestowitztessier_: I don't deal with the 'marketing' side although I learn about the good news and post it to COLA.Sep 02 21:15
schestowitzMy areas of greater knowledge is probably sources of friction against Free software and that's what I focus on now.Sep 02 21:16
schestowitzAs long as my savings in the bank last and I enjoy this hobby, I intend to continue. I can get around to things like family later on.Sep 02 21:16
tessier_schestowitz: That's part of marketing. You are just some of the very small amount of free marketing labor that the FSF/FOSS/Linux/GNU/whoever have that they didn't even ask for.Sep 02 21:17
schestowitzI'm not alone though. I've been in regular touch with Pj since early 2006.Sep 02 21:18
schestowitzShe too is doing this on a low budget and she enjoys it now.Sep 02 21:18
ReverseGTRmind giving me a link to her blog, I never knew about it until nowSep 02 21:25
schestowitzWho? PJ?Sep 02 21:25
schestowitzMary Lou Jespen (did I remember that right?) almost died working for a cause she believed in: OLPC. She's now in a startup.Sep 02 21:25
tessier_ReverseGTR: You don't know who PJ is? Wow.Sep 02 21:26
tessier_ReverseGTR: groklaw.netSep 02 21:26
tessier_ReverseGTR: She's been famous in the FOSS community for a good 4 years now.Sep 02 21:26
ReverseGTRtessier_: I guess you can say  I am looking into the open source community more slowly then others wouldSep 02 21:29
schestowitzGroklaw is a more common identity for PamSep 02 21:30
ReverseGTRschestowitz: I am not really good with names or ecspecially identifying the whos who of communitiesSep 02 21:32
schestowitzThat's fine. Happens to all of us. I didn't know T'so when he joined the LFSep 02 21:33
schestowitzBTW, a good example of people going over the edge is probably Reiser.Sep 02 21:34
schestowitzI bet it drove him nuts that Reiser couldn't keep up with other FSes. SUSE, his bigger fan, was going to drop his software.Sep 02 21:34
tessier_Theodore T'so has been a big filesystem guy and kernel contributor for a very long time.Sep 02 21:35
tessier_Reiser was a nut from the beginning.Sep 02 21:35
tessier_His odd personality kept his fs from succeeding, not the other way around.Sep 02 21:35
tessier_I talked to Hans Reiser first around 1999.Sep 02 21:36
tessier_I arranged for MP3.com to sponsor development of the journaling in reiserfs because we needed a journaled fs for Linux that didn't cost an arm and a leg.. Even back then he was a bit odd.Sep 02 21:36
tessier_We were having to tolerate multi-day fsck's or spend $50k on an E250 with Veritas Foundation Suite without reiserfs.Sep 02 21:37
schestowitzInteresting.Sep 02 21:38
schestowitzBruce Perens met his two and I heard other personal account, but none suggested he was odd.Sep 02 21:38
tessier_You can't go to college at 16, import a russian wife, engage in bondage and wife swapping or whatever with this other dude who claimed to have killed someone, etc. etc. and be "average".Sep 02 21:43
ReverseGTRis that what he said he did?Sep 02 21:44
tessier_Is what what who said who did?Sep 02 21:45
ReverseGTRcollege at 16 while importing a bride who was married to another dude and then killing herSep 02 21:46
schestowitzI read about him going to college early.Sep 02 21:46
schestowitzThe rest is new to me.Sep 02 21:46
ReverseGTRlol, do you really think its all true?Sep 02 21:47
tessier_That's all trueSep 02 21:48
tessier_It was his imported Russian bride who he killedSep 02 21:48
tessier_The stuff about Sean Sturgeon or whatever is well documented in court transcripts and various articles on the net.Sep 02 21:48
tessier_The dude claimed he had killed 6 people or something like that while on the stand.Sep 02 21:48
tessier_But that he didn't kill NinaSep 02 21:48
schestowitzI hard that too.Sep 02 21:49
schestowitz*heardSep 02 21:49
tessier_Outsourcing so much of his filesystem work to Russia was a bad move too.Sep 02 21:49
schestowitzI never heard about the "imported" bit though. Nina seems like a sophisticated woman. Why "import"?Sep 02 21:49
tessier_But he had to pay people to do the work because he wasn't the easiest person to work with.Sep 02 21:50
tessier_schestowitz: He met her in Russia where she was a nurse. I think through a matchmaking service.Sep 02 21:50
schestowitzI heard the kids might go to Russia.Sep 02 21:50
ReverseGTRis he being deported?Sep 02 21:50
tessier_(Remember, Nina Reiser advertised herself in a Russian mail-order bride catalog.) - http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2...Sep 02 21:51
tessier_The kids are already in RussiaSep 02 21:51
tessier_And have been for a year or two.Sep 02 21:51
trmancohttp://www.stefanoforenza.com/?p=137Sep 02 21:51
schestowitzBTW, I never wrote about this saga in public because it's an embarrassment to Linux and I resent writers who try to associate this with code.Sep 02 21:51
tessier_schestowitz: I agree and I think you did the right thing on that one.Sep 02 21:51
schestowitzThe Munchkins used this nonetheless.Sep 02 21:52
schestowitzGive the Win-trolls a finger and they'll bite off the hand.Sep 02 21:52
tessier_2:55 p.m The discussion centers on him dating Russian women. He says he dated some 50 of them between 1993 and1996.Sep 02 21:52
tessier_Wow. You go Hans!Sep 02 21:53
ReverseGTRI wonder if anyone working for M$ choked a b*ch or few?Sep 02 21:53
ReverseGTRtessier_: it takes guts to date RussiansSep 02 21:54
tessier_ReverseGTR: They gotta. But all of their software is anonymously authored.Sep 02 21:54
ReverseGTRis there any problem to it being as long as the work is not proven to be directly based on any proprietary or otherwised personally patented work?Sep 02 21:55
schestowitzReverseGTR: I have some stories about crime in Redmond.Sep 02 21:57
tessier_schestowitz: But as with reiser, probably best not to make hay of them. They don't relate much to the software anyhow.Sep 02 21:58
schestowitzMicrosoft has also had at least one practising (I think) pedophile caught.Sep 02 21:58
tessier_Practicing? I would think most folks could get it right the first time.Sep 02 21:58
schestowitzYou mean the typo?Sep 02 22:00
schestowitzI type fast.Sep 02 22:00
tessier_No, not the typo. :)Sep 02 22:01
tessier_I was making a bad joke about needing to practice to be a pedophile.Sep 02 22:01
tessier_Chrome is only available as a beta for Windows?! WTF?Sep 02 22:02
tessier_Google Chrome for Linux is in development and a team of engineers is working hard to bring it to you as soon as possible.Sep 02 22:03
tessier_Please enter your email address below and we'll let you know when it's released.Sep 02 22:03
tessier_Ah. I bet it won't be long.Sep 02 22:03
*tessier_ sign supSep 02 22:03
ReverseGTRtessier_: I know strange, but sensable since most of the features would probably be harder to implement on all platforms of Linux.Sep 02 22:03
tessier_Most of the features would be easier to implement on Linux I would think. Or do you mean packaging for all of the different distros?Sep 02 22:03
ReverseGTRif they make one for 32bit x86, 64bit advocates will complain why there isn't any, then if it is 32 as well as 64bit x86 compatible people will complain about lack of PPC and other RISC developmentSep 02 22:04
ReverseGTRit will be like Adobe FlashSep 02 22:04
ReverseGTRtessier_: I bet they are saving the Linux release for Android's rolloutSep 02 22:04
schestowitztessier_: yes, I saw this earlier (chrome). Same with Macs.Sep 02 22:05
schestowitzChris DiBona got some flak from me and others and he admits that Windows releases are a priority at Google.Sep 02 22:05
schestowitzThey also do some ActiveX stuff and other Windows-only junk,  which I complained about (and I was not alone). They even embrace Flash, which is ironic because it works against them.Sep 02 22:06
tessier_I used to be pretty skeptical of browser based applications replacing the desktop. But Chrome might change that.Sep 02 22:06
ReverseGTRtessier_: I just don't want to lose any more controll over my computerSep 02 22:06
tessier_If they pushed youtube/google video towards something else I bet they could supplant flash.Sep 02 22:07
tessier_ReverseGTR: I agree completely.Sep 02 22:07
schestowitztessier_: I only use about 3 apps on my desktop. The browser is one of them. scehstowitz,com has lots of software on it (and privacy)Sep 02 22:07
tessier_I use firefox, thunderbird, pidgin, xchat, and xterm. That's pretty much it. Occasionally (but rarely) a few other things. But those are my constantly open apps.Sep 02 22:08
*JohnnyUtah (i=cf2f3dea@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-62126838b0759cb3) has joined #boycottnovellSep 02 22:10
ReverseGTRtessier_: I admit I do use the computer from browsing and chatting online more often then not but the application I use I feel more confortable with installing on my computer since I can more easily diagnose them and I never trust using browser based diagnostic software.Sep 02 22:11
MinceRi hope them embracing flash means they'll get it under controlSep 02 22:11
ReverseGTReven though I admit Gmail Webapp is goodSep 02 22:11
MinceRi don't like gmailSep 02 22:12
ReverseGTRMinceR: I just want pure h.264 streamingSep 02 22:12
MinceRi'd rather stream video in a video player, not in a browserSep 02 22:12
MinceRi want to see the video, not the heaps of widgets and text and clutter around a tiny viewportSep 02 22:13
schestowitzMinceR: they encourage people to use Flash content. It's bad.Sep 02 22:13
MinceRpeople will use it without encouragementSep 02 22:13
MinceRthey're making flashsites even though there's no reason to do so and many reasons not toSep 02 22:13
schestowitzGoogle changes this.Sep 02 22:13
schestowitzIt indexes that mess now.Sep 02 22:14
MinceRif they can reduce the privileges the flash plugin gets, that might be an improvementSep 02 22:14
MinceRindexing helps it very littleSep 02 22:14
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworlduk.com/communi...Sep 02 22:14
MinceRi wonder if it will have the ability to block plugins built inSep 02 22:14
JohnnyUtahHey Roy, can you do me a favor?Sep 02 22:14
MinceRyeah, that's an ugly effectSep 02 22:15
schestowitzSure, JohnnyUtah Sep 02 22:16
schestowitzI was gonna say hi. I remember you from before.Sep 02 22:16
JohnnyUtahI want to drive like minded individuals to my forum, can you post a link on BN?Sep 02 22:16
ReverseGTRwhatever it takes to kill SilverlightSep 02 22:16
schestowitzSure, JohnnyUtah, assuming it's related to BNSep 02 22:17
schestowitzOr to topic we cover.Sep 02 22:17
trmancohttp://www.pcworld.com/article/1505...Sep 02 22:17
JohnnyUtahIt's Kubuntu forum - so it's Linux related.Sep 02 22:18
schestowitzThanks, trmanco -- was gonna post an update about this in an hour. Some news on this..Sep 02 22:18
schestowitzWhat's the address again, JohnnyUtah?Sep 02 22:18
trmancono probSep 02 22:18
JohnnyUtahhttp://kubuntuway.netSep 02 22:18
schestowitzAh, that's the one.Sep 02 22:21
schestowitzI'll post it along with the links.Sep 02 22:21
schestowitzYou're not harvesting IPs hopefully.Sep 02 22:21
JohnnyUtahHaha, nope I promise.  Thanks a lot.  Do you have a 468 x 60 banner?Sep 02 22:26
JohnnyUtahI was thinking about putting it at the bottom of the forum, try to get some more exposure for your site.Sep 02 22:26
schestowitzI have some banners, not sure about the size. :-)Sep 02 22:28
schestowitzThis one is 150x75 : http://boycottnovell.com/images/bo...Sep 02 22:29
JohnnyUtahAs long as it's not bigger than 468 x 60, it will work.Sep 02 22:29
schestowitzThanks a lot!Sep 02 22:32
JohnnyUtahThank you!  Scroll down, it looks great: http://kubuntuway.netSep 02 22:36
schestowitz:-) :-)Sep 02 22:38
schestowitzI have Kubuntu on my other partition. I'm on Mandriva at the moment (dual-boot Linux).Sep 02 22:38
JohnnyUtahIMO, for client machines, those two are the best of both worlds. RPM and APTSep 02 22:44
JohnnyUtahMandriva and KubuntuSep 02 22:45
schestowitzI used to detest RPM after SuSE.Sep 02 22:45
schestowitzBut Mandriva never failed on me (2008.1), so far.Sep 02 22:45
schestowitzIn *buntus I use apt-get, but in Mandriva I use the GUISep 02 22:46
JohnnyUtahYeah Mandriva uses that URPMI package managent system. Their version of Yum.Sep 02 22:47
schestowitzThe repositories are not vast, but that's acceptable. I always find what I need.Sep 02 22:49
JohnnyUtahWhat's going on with the other editor of BN?  Seems like he's not very active these days.Sep 02 22:51
schestowitzHe's with the family.Sep 02 22:54
schestowitzWhen I take a vacation he'll hopefully take over.Sep 02 22:54
JohnnyUtahi seeSep 02 23:12
*JohnnyUtah has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 02 23:15
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Sep 02 23:18

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