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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 22nd, 2009 - Part 1

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MinceRBalrog: m$ suffers from NIH syndrome.Feb 22 00:01
BalroghehFeb 22 00:01
Balrogwhat about the promised ODF support in Office 07?Feb 22 00:01
MinceRthey've already bought ISO, haven't they?Feb 22 00:01
MinceRpromises from m$ aren't worth the paper they're printed on.Feb 22 00:01
schestowitzUN nuclear watchdog rejects Syrian excuses for uranium find < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009... >Feb 22 00:02
schestowitzHehehe. http://www.politifact.com/truth-...Feb 22 00:03
schestowitzMinceR:  they try extending ODFFeb 22 00:04
schestowitzThe cronies from ISO/MS commented in BN tooFeb 22 00:04
schestowitzWhich means we're on to something or else they won't botherFeb 22 00:04
schestowitzIn fact, the second time they did nothing to deny it. it's disgusting really.Feb 22 00:04
schestowitzThe Copywrong Song (new, like copy-left): http://creativefreedom.org.nz/co...Feb 22 00:05
Balrogschestowitz: I have no problem with proprietary software, as long as it's taking rights away from othersFeb 22 00:07
Balrogit's NOT taking rights ***Feb 22 00:08
schestowitzhttp://www.stallman.org/archives/2008-nov-fe... "The shoes he threw, he threw for all of us."Feb 22 00:08
Balroghow's that related? In any case, 15 *years* is preposterous. At most it should be a small fineFeb 22 00:09
Balrogand yeah, copyright is way too longFeb 22 00:09
schestowitzWell, but it was not thrown at some ordinary manFeb 22 00:10
BalrogI know...Feb 22 00:10
schestowitzIt was thrown at a thug who killed over 1 million Iraqis.Feb 22 00:10
Balrogyeah but it was disturbing the peace. 15 years is obviously unjustFeb 22 00:11
BalrogI'm talking from a purely legal standpointFeb 22 00:11
schestowitzNot even Saddam, Rumsfeld's friend, managed to do this.Feb 22 00:11
Balrogyeah.Feb 22 00:12
schestowitzIn the west, it's got to be big. Big car, bit house, big farm, big ego, big casualties.Feb 22 00:14
Balrognow this mess with nVidia vs. Intel isn't helping anyone D:Feb 22 00:25
trmancowowFeb 22 00:25
trmancolook at this: Last reboot418 days ago http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_...Feb 22 00:25
schestowitzIt's not that impressiveFeb 22 00:28
trmancoChromonium on Linux -> http://www.sofaraway.org/ubunt... | http://www.sofaraway.org/ubunt... Native!!Feb 22 00:28
schestowitzSome are up for yearsFeb 22 00:28
schestowitzGood for 1&1 Internet in GermanyFeb 22 00:28
trmancoyeah, but maore than 1 year os goodFeb 22 00:28
schestowitzThey also just sample for uptimeFeb 22 00:28
schestowitzIt might have redundancyFeb 22 00:29
trmancothe server is actually located in the USFeb 22 00:29
MinceRbitmap fonts :/Feb 22 00:29
Balrognetcraft isn't very accurateFeb 22 00:31
Balrogit says that the univ. server was last rebooted "20-Feb-2006"Feb 22 00:31
Balrogwhen it was taken down very recentlyFeb 22 00:31
trmancocyaFeb 22 00:33
schestowitzdowntime?Feb 22 00:33
schestowitztrmanco: rebooting so soon?Feb 22 00:33
Balrogthey had to move it from one room to anotherFeb 22 00:34
Balrogthough a couple of months ago, worse happendFeb 22 00:34
Balroghappened **Feb 22 00:34
schestowitzic...Feb 22 00:34
MinceRnetcraft confirms bsd is dyingFeb 22 00:34
MinceR:>Feb 22 00:34
Balroga backup caused the server to crashFeb 22 00:34
schestowitztrmanco got himself a new kernel, so he reboots (sleep)Feb 22 00:34
Balrog(this is Linux btw)Feb 22 00:34
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schestowitzMinceR: not reallyFeb 22 00:35
schestowitzIt's replaced by Apple fans.Feb 22 00:35
MinceRschestowitz: it's a /. memeFeb 22 00:35
schestowitzThey proprietarised itFeb 22 00:35
Balrogheh.Feb 22 00:35
schestowitz$ sudo chown bsd crappleFeb 22 00:35
MinceRm$ wants their part tooFeb 22 00:35
schestowitzThey got itFeb 22 00:36
BalrogPureDarwin is trying to do something.Feb 22 00:36
schestowitzfind[whatever]  | grep bsd c:/windows/*Feb 22 00:37
schestowitzHurd is based on Mach in a way (was?)Feb 22 00:37
MinceRit isFeb 22 00:37
schestowitzIf Linus didn't make Linux, would someone else like GNU make an equally popular kernel?Feb 22 00:37
MinceRafaik HURD consists of servers running on top of GNU MachFeb 22 00:38
schestowitzThat would have changed the whole philosophicalm direction.Feb 22 00:38
BalrogMicrokernels are tricky to make practicalFeb 22 00:38
Balrogso far OS X is the only widely used system that has anything like a microkernel (that I know of, at least)Feb 22 00:39
MinceRthat's not a microkernelFeb 22 00:39
MinceRneither is windows ntFeb 22 00:39
schestowitzThey are also slowerFeb 22 00:39
schestowitzBut nothing's freeFeb 22 00:39
schestowitzOOP can be slow tooFeb 22 00:39
MinceRos x has a layer from freebsd and who knows what else running in kernel modeFeb 22 00:39
schestowitzDepending on the coding, compiling , optimisations, etc.Feb 22 00:39
MinceRwinnt has big parts of the gui running in kernel modeFeb 22 00:39
Balrogall the kexts in OS XFeb 22 00:39
MinceRclaiming that they're using microkernels is marketing bullshitFeb 22 00:40
MinceROOP can be fastFeb 22 00:40
BalrogI'm not defending themFeb 22 00:40
MinceRi'd like to have a mature GNU/HURDFeb 22 00:40
MinceRi value reliability and security over performance :>Feb 22 00:40
schestowitzMinceR: you can buy a gnu calfFeb 22 00:44
schestowitzfeed it and it'll growFeb 22 00:44
MinceR:)Feb 22 00:45
schestowitzRMS is handing some outFeb 22 00:45
schestowitzLet me find a picFeb 22 00:45
schestowitzWTF? http://citizenreports.files.wordp...Feb 22 00:46
schestowitzSee comment: http://flickr.com/photos/62449268@N00/324519959Feb 22 00:48
MinceRis that a hat?Feb 22 00:51
MinceR(on the first pic)Feb 22 00:52
schestowitzYou know the small disc, no? The one that was a wafer and he wear for the Saint Ignicius routine?Feb 22 00:56
schestowitz*wearsFeb 22 00:56
schestowitzhttp://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ICring...Feb 22 00:57
schestowitzYou already miss him, donchoo?Feb 22 00:58
schestowitzThere is hope left for human kind... Victim of Bullying Video Drops Google Case < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159979/goog... >Feb 22 00:59
schestowitzI blame PetoKraus for starting with all those Microsoft posts in BN ;-) It used to be none, then some in dailt link, then "eye on Microsoft" and now we have visitors surging because there is great interest in Microsoft's demise along with the evidence. If I should stop covering this, say so and I will.Feb 22 01:01
MinceRi don't miss himFeb 22 01:01
MinceRin fact, i hope he and his company dies.Feb 22 01:02
MinceRthe world would do better with less lock-in and contempt for users.Feb 22 01:02
MinceRand less DRM.Feb 22 01:02
schestowitzMaybe he misses you...?Feb 22 01:03
ZiggyFishMinceR: agreed, also it's not like it's off topic anywayFeb 22 01:03
MinceRhe doesn't know me so he can't miss meFeb 22 01:03
schestowitzhttp://www.upstartblogger.com/free-mac-boo... "I want an Apple laptop so bad that I have gone as far as emailing Steve Jobs asking for a free MacBook Air, he replied with a polite ‘Sorry, but no’ Sent from my iPhone, LOL!"Feb 22 01:03
schestowitzZiggyFish: other sites don't cover itFeb 22 01:04
ZiggyFishschestowitz: exactlyFeb 22 01:04
schestowitzI can't think of a single one that does it properly and systematically, so I might as well. We also inherited some Groklaw readers because that site covered similar subjectsFeb 22 01:04
schestowitzBN's Netcraft rank is now 2300th. I don't think more than a handful Linux sites beat thatFeb 22 01:05
ZiggyFishthat reminds me I haven't read BN since Friday (it's now sunday)Feb 22 01:05
schestowitzWe even beat Linux Journal < http://www.linuxjournal.com/ >Feb 22 01:06
ZiggyFishschestowitz: so it must be interesting to other peopleFeb 22 01:06
schestowitzI hope so.Feb 22 01:06
schestowitzI'll do some more MS posts nowFeb 22 01:06
schestowitzI have 4 coming, but I'll get tired soon.Feb 22 01:06
ZiggyFishlolFeb 22 01:07
schestowitzI'll whack VistaFeb 22 01:07
schestowitz*Vista7Feb 22 01:07
schestowitzI already think of them as the same thing because the name got to me. That's the idea... it all came from BN irc channelFeb 22 01:07
schestowitzI see Vista 7 in other sites and in USENET now and it started here  in BNFeb 22 01:08
*ZiggyFish been playing with my new phone for a too long, need to catch up on some stories I've missedFeb 22 01:08
ZiggyFishschestowitz: niceFeb 22 01:08
schestowitzAndroid is nice. I saw itFeb 22 01:08
schestowitzPractical too... no less than iShinyFeb 22 01:08
ZiggyFishonly came out on monday in australiaFeb 22 01:08
MinceRandroid doesn't support native apps, only java crapFeb 22 01:08
MinceRthere are plenty of phones that can run java crapFeb 22 01:09
schestowitzJailbreak the buggerFeb 22 01:09
benJImanDepends what you mean by native.Feb 22 01:09
benJImanAndroid isn't real java.Feb 22 01:09
MinceRin this case, ARM binariesFeb 22 01:09
ZiggyFishMinceR: have you seen what you can do from a programmers point of view in android ?Feb 22 01:09
schestowitzMinceR: They sell you the phone, no?Feb 22 01:09
schestowitzThey don't rent phones for $300 upfrontFeb 22 01:09
ZiggyFishit's what makes the android so powerfullFeb 22 01:09
MinceRwith access to the GUI and all the hardware, including phone and GPS.Feb 22 01:09
schestowitzZiggyFish: yes, seen it. Some prefer it to iPhonyFeb 22 01:10
MinceRi'm still waiting for a truly open linux phone with keyboard.Feb 22 01:10
ZiggyFishMinceR: also in true Open source style you can replace absolutly of the default appsFeb 22 01:10
schestowitzMinceR: maemo?Feb 22 01:10
schestowitzNokia n810 not versatile enough?Feb 22 01:10
MinceRperhaps the G1 developer version with openmoko, but i keep hearing openmoko isn't matureFeb 22 01:10
MinceRschestowitz: maemo doesn't have phone functionality the last time i checkedFeb 22 01:11
ZiggyFishMinceR: has full querty keyboard, what more could you wantFeb 22 01:11
MinceRafaik nokia only offers non-phone tablets/pdas with linuxFeb 22 01:11
schestowitzZiggyFish: pinchFeb 22 01:11
ZiggyFishlolFeb 22 01:11
schestowitzLinux users have keyboardsFeb 22 01:11
schestowitziphone users play with chopsticksFeb 22 01:11
ZiggyFishlolFeb 22 01:12
Balrogsticks don't work on iphoneFeb 22 01:12
schestowitziMultitouchFeb 22 01:12
BalroghehFeb 22 01:12
MinceRiirc there's a special stick for iphoneFeb 22 01:12
MinceRhopefully it works with the G1 and others, tooFeb 22 01:12
schestowitzBalrog: iC...Feb 22 01:12
MinceRi've seen it on thinkgeekFeb 22 01:12
Balrogdon't see why it won'tFeb 22 01:12
ZiggyFishschestowitz: the G1 has multitouch hardware, but is not supported by OSFeb 22 01:13
MinceRstill, none of these phones come with a stylus or a slot to hold itFeb 22 01:13
MinceRi hope the industry can do better than this.Feb 22 01:13
*ZiggyFish starting on the 31 posts I've missedFeb 22 01:13
MinceRperhaps webOS will open up a little.Feb 22 01:14
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MinceRgnFeb 22 01:25
ZiggyFishc yaFeb 22 01:25
schestowitzwebOS will be very closed, IMHO.Feb 22 01:33
schestowitzPalm never said anything about 'openness', just Linux (for its engineering... mutitasking and all)Feb 22 01:33
schestowitzZiggyFish: it doesn't support multitouch because of Apple's bullying/whetever, according to reportFeb 22 01:34
schestowitzApple needs to get a "kick in the pants" as they sayFeb 22 01:34
schestowitzThey are too conceited and they just harm other people's products... YOUR productFeb 22 01:35
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schestowitzhttp://survey.wikimedia.org/index.p...Feb 22 02:36
schestowitzMicrosoft talking point from Shill Fried: Don't expect Obama to object to Windows' browser < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860... > Talking points, talking points...Feb 22 02:37
oiaohmYep windows 7 is now doing what vista did when it was a betaFeb 22 02:51
oiaohmlonghorn also killed Linux partition.Feb 22 02:52
schestowitzWhat's Port 25 for again? :-)Feb 22 02:53
oiaohmsmtp normallyFeb 22 02:54
oiaohmOr do you mean the group at MS that was ment to make nice with opensource that has kinda vaporised.Feb 22 02:55
schestowitzDaniel Eran opines that Microsoft phone is baloney: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/02/21/the...Feb 22 02:57
schestowitzMay Jo Foley too is angrily saying that it ain't happening.Feb 22 02:57
schestowitzBut Microsoft said the same thing about layoffs (won't happen)Feb 22 02:57
schestowitzoiaohm: Port 25, the Microsoft groupFeb 22 02:58
schestowitzInteresting that you mention it vapourised.  Hilf jumped that ship, the Ramji lackey is quiet (goal it to rob projects and take them away from Linux) and they hired their mole reporter Galli to write in a blog and site nobody reads or links to. Port 25 is a major failure, esp. recently.Feb 22 02:59
schestowitzhttp://discuss.itwire.com/viewtop... "While I do not callously overlook the pain and dislocation that these job losses represent to those involved, I must confess that in the bigger scheme of things, it might be better for Linux and FOSS in general, that those distributions that made special (and still secret) deals with the Devil, should go the way of the dodo."Feb 22 03:09
schestowitzWell said: "OpenSUSE developers might do well for themselves right now if they offer their services to Redhat, which seems to be weathering this economic crisis far better than the Microsoft lackey, Novell. Best of luck, guys. We don't blame you. Your corporate bosses sold out on us all."Feb 22 03:10
schestowitz"Mono is an unnecessary implementation of the .Net platform. .Net is not a standard of any sort. Mono simply ratifies .Net. There is no need for Mono other than to ratify .Net."Feb 22 03:11
schestowitzhttp://blogs.computerworld.com/whos_buddying_u... "from the horse's orifice; http://www.youtube.com/watc... "Feb 22 03:17
oiaohmreally if any distribution is in place to buy xen it would be redhat.Feb 22 03:18
schestowitzIt has KVMFeb 22 03:18
schestowitzWhat would it need a Windows-centrix Xentrix for?Feb 22 03:19
oiaohmSimple point redhat has free cash.Feb 22 03:19
oiaohmNovell really does not.Feb 22 03:19
schestowitzNopeFeb 22 03:19
schestowitzBuybacks and all.Feb 22 03:19
schestowitzThey claim increasing revenueFeb 22 03:19
schestowitzThey also hired some more guys (2 from Mandriva whom I know)Feb 22 03:19
schestowitzBut Xen...? What for?Feb 22 03:19
schestowitzI spoke to SJVN before he wrote this articleFeb 22 03:20
schestowitzHe decided to write this after we exchanged ideas.Feb 22 03:20
oiaohmNote I said in place to.  Not that they would want it.Feb 22 03:20
oiaohmIn place from a money point of view.Feb 22 03:20
oiaohmIt would be buying purely for compettion control.Feb 22 03:21
schestowitzXen is a messFeb 22 03:21
schestowitzKVM is cleanerFeb 22 03:21
oiaohmthat is always hard to justify.Feb 22 03:21
schestowitzXen is an ugly hack based on the assessment of an IBMer with expertise in this areaFeb 22 03:21
schestowitzDon't ask me about dom0 and all that stuff which is beyond meFeb 22 03:21
oiaohmXen idea was a small central core.Feb 22 03:22
schestowitzI'd rather see companies stop buying stufFeb 22 03:22
schestowitzThis is like a game if riskFeb 22 03:22
schestowitzUSA vs USSRFeb 22 03:22
schestowitzWhy can't we have 150 countries?Feb 22 03:22
oiaohmYes game of risk is the only reason redhat would.Feb 22 03:22
schestowitzThere's MS ecosystem+partners+molesFeb 22 03:22
schestowitzversus all sorts of other 'factions'Feb 22 03:22
schestowitzThis is a very unhealthy industryFeb 22 03:23
oiaohmIt would almost give redhat 100 percent exculsive control of open source virtualisation tech.Feb 22 03:23
schestowitzit's one thing to created a communism-like set of private tyranniesFeb 22 03:23
schestowitzThose unaccountable corporations also receives rights as thogh they are humansFeb 22 03:23
oiaohmAlso cause MS problems for hyper-v if they changed Xen to GPL 3.Feb 22 03:23
schestowitzThen they just scoop up potential rivalsFeb 22 03:23
schestowitzGoogle too.. BIG time.Feb 22 03:23
schestowitzMicrosoft just stole at the startFeb 22 03:24
schestowitzGoogle made search.. then bought many companiesFeb 22 03:24
oiaohmHmm google would have a reason to take Xen.Feb 22 03:24
schestowitzMicrosoft just stole, cheated, sabotaged, lied, etc..Feb 22 03:24
oiaohmXen style hyperviser fits inside phones.Feb 22 03:24
schestowitzIn the 90s they started 'buying' expansions because they lost moneyFeb 22 03:24
oiaohmBetter than KVM does.Feb 22 03:24
schestowitzGoogle mightFeb 22 03:25
schestowitzBUTFeb 22 03:25
schestowitzIt's too IRON for themFeb 22 03:25
schestowitzGoogle does hardware-distant stuffFeb 22 03:25
schestowitzIt uses Red HatFeb 22 03:25
schestowitzSo it can leave this for Red Hat to handleFeb 22 03:25
schestowitzoiaohm: Google can use VirtualLogixFeb 22 03:25
oiaohmXen does have particular features for particular embed uses.Feb 22 03:26
schestowitzBut it has a Java VM on AndroidFeb 22 03:26
schestowitzNovell's chummies try to push Mono into G1Feb 22 03:26
schestowitzSame with LiMo... :-(Feb 22 03:26
schestowitzXen on phones? I think notFeb 22 03:26
oiaohmIts the design of the hypervisor.Feb 22 03:26
schestowitzThere are specialised products for mobile and low-energy stuff I'd imagineFeb 22 03:27
schestowitzSome proprietary..Feb 22 03:27
oiaohmXen would still need masive ammounts of work to make it usable.Feb 22 03:27
schestowitzAlso..Feb 22 03:27
schestowitzWhy virtualise on phones anyway?Feb 22 03:27
schestowitzWhat's the practical gain?Feb 22 03:27
oiaohmIts required to keep closed source parts like phone network encryption away from general operating parts.Feb 22 03:27
schestowitzSo security?Feb 22 03:28
oiaohmYepFeb 22 03:28
schestowitzVirtualisation can exacerbate security.Feb 22 03:28
schestowitzIf the liars from anal-ysts firm are something you can go by, the added complexity makes it hard for testers or AV vendors to keep track of risk vectorsFeb 22 03:29
schestowitzVMWare has also had some vulnerabilities.Feb 22 03:29
schestowitzOr downtime due to some activation issue last yearFeb 22 03:29
oiaohmIts the type of Virtualisation.Feb 22 03:30
schestowitzTo virtualise much on phones is too much.. servers is where it's at and WHAT FOR?Feb 22 03:30
schestowitzIt's overrated to a degree.Feb 22 03:30
schestowitz"Save electricity" and other buzzphrases don't always match upFeb 22 03:30
oiaohmPhones have normally a microkernel based virtualistaion level.Feb 22 03:30
oiaohmMeant to be low in ammount of code needed.Feb 22 03:30
schestowitzWhy would Red Hat need such a thing?Feb 22 03:31
oiaohmXEN matches the general requirements of the phone stack.Feb 22 03:31
oiaohmServers KVM wins.Feb 22 03:31
oiaohmEmbed if redhat is going there for phones and the like Xen style is kinda needed.Feb 22 03:31
oiaohmDifferent markets different requirements.Feb 22 03:31
oiaohmReally open source has not build a hypervisor fully for like the phone based roll.Feb 22 03:33
oiaohmStuck to server market like hypervisors.Feb 22 03:34
schestowitzhttp://www.virtuallogix.com/Feb 22 03:35
oiaohmPhones also require the hypervisor to do signing checking.Feb 22 03:35
oiaohmAlso it most likely if redhat was going to aquire something to go after the phone market best would be L4Feb 22 03:38
schestowitzRed Hat won't do phonesFeb 22 03:40
oiaohmvirtuallogix is another microkernel based hypervisor.Feb 22 03:40
schestowitzThey hardly risk it with desktops nowFeb 22 03:40
schestowitzNot many people even buy computers (it's bound to get worse over time)Feb 22 03:40
schestowitzThis favours upgrades to a second partition (Linux).Feb 22 03:40
oiaohmRedhat will attack the business desktop whey they are ready.Feb 22 03:41
oiaohmBecause the desktop a business uses effects there server selections.Feb 22 03:41
oiaohmSame does partly apply to phones.Feb 22 03:42
schestowitzApple is mostly desktop focused tooFeb 22 03:43
schestowitzBut Apple only 'exists' in a few countriesFeb 22 03:43
schestowitzApple also does gadgets, but that's another storyFeb 22 03:43
oiaohmhttp://freeipa.org is about prepairing the tech for the Desktop push.Feb 22 03:43
schestowitzRed Hat can succeed in the emerging market when Microsoft goes MAD like SCO and can't maintain its productsFeb 22 03:44
oiaohmRedhat does not seam interested in desktop.  But they are putting a lot of work into getting ready.Feb 22 03:44
schestowitzMore Microsoft layoffs are likely to be coming which is why it's rushing Vista7 (upgrade treadmill)Feb 22 03:44
schestowitzRed Hat's desktop was Web-focusedFeb 22 03:45
oiaohmNopFeb 22 03:45
schestowitzOver time, some businesses will run more stuff over the network, i.e. on Red Hat-based 'clouds;Feb 22 03:45
oiaohmFreeipa is focused on client server like MS.Feb 22 03:45
schestowitzhttp://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc...Feb 22 03:46
oiaohmAlso focused on allowing users to run virtualisation controlled.Feb 22 03:46
schestowitzOops. It starts in here (page 1): http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/articl...Feb 22 03:46
oiaohm1 month after that freeipa was born.Feb 22 03:47
oiaohmLook at the code redhat is producing tells you more what they are upto than there press releases.Feb 22 03:47
oiaohmfreeipa is a small segment out a very huge project.Feb 22 03:48
oiaohmhttp://ovirt.org/  It all about complete network management from installation virtualisation client control.  Yep complete box and dice.Feb 22 03:49
oiaohmHave to go mow law back in a bit.Feb 22 03:50
oiaohmlaw/lawnFeb 22 03:50
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schestowitzWindows... all about lipstick... http://lifehacker.com/5126130/wind... ... still with NTFS and other problems like DLL hell...Feb 22 03:59
twittercool link, will check it out.Feb 22 04:17
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schestowitzIt's 4:30. I'll get some kipFeb 22 04:18
twitteractually that link was really about how to "unlock" your Vista to use "unofficial themes."  looks like hell but not DLL hell, too horrible to read further.Feb 22 04:20
twitterNTFS - hellFeb 22 04:20
twitterDLLs - hellFeb 22 04:20
twitterPaytards torture themselves to no end.Feb 22 04:23
twitterAfter you unlock your leased copy of Vista to load an unofficial theme, apply Windoblinds, Mozilla, Gimp and a few other Upsell Power Toys, you get something that might look a little like Mac or KDE but performs like riding mower with a spoilers bolted on.Feb 22 04:25
twitterOhhh, but it looks so fast.Feb 22 04:25
twitterStar Trek even.Feb 22 04:26
twittergnFeb 22 04:26
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Omar87Hi guys.Feb 22 05:25
Omar87Is it true that this is the first time Microsoft allows people try out the beta of version of the upcoming Windows?Feb 22 05:26
Omar87the beta versionFeb 22 05:26
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avutonOmar87: Depends, back before Windows 95 came out they had a public beta, though you did have to ask for a CD over snail mailFeb 22 05:40
PetoKrausLonghorn, when it still was longhorn, had betaFeb 22 05:44
PetoKrauswe may argue whether it was upcoming windowsFeb 22 05:45
PetoKrausor vapourware ;)Feb 22 05:45
PetoKrausanywayFeb 22 05:45
PetoKrausoff to ben nevis! see you laterFeb 22 05:45
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trmancohttp://www.electronista.com/articles/09/...Feb 22 09:52
trmancoand let the bloated boat sink!Feb 22 09:52
oiaohmAndroid is not that bloated.Feb 22 09:53
oiaohmTo be correct its lighter than most distributions used on  netbooks so far.Feb 22 09:53
trmancoI'm not talking about androidFeb 22 09:54
trmancoI'm referring to these kinds of quote "An Eee PC or similar netbook running Android may be damaging to Microsoft, which has largely managed to supplant Linux in netbooks but has been unable to penetrate the low-cost end of the market."Feb 22 09:55
trmancoquotes*Feb 22 09:55
oiaohmReally wait for next waveFeb 22 09:55
oiaohmArm based netbooksFeb 22 09:55
oiaohm8 hours + runtime and unable to run windows at all.Feb 22 09:55
trmancoyes, that is going to be a "revolution" :-PFeb 22 09:55
trmancoI'll buy one myselfFeb 22 09:56
oiaohmReally I will be waiting on laptop sizedFeb 22 09:56
oiaohmI cannot use netbook size.Feb 22 09:56
trmancoThat might take a whileFeb 22 09:56
oiaohmReally there is a large section of the market who will eat up cheep notbook size.Feb 22 09:56
oiaohmMostly the keyboardFeb 22 09:57
MinceRoh haiFeb 22 10:07
schestowitzThere are already some ARM-based one over there.Feb 22 10:28
schestowitz*onesFeb 22 10:28
oiaohmJust not in large number yet.Feb 22 10:29
oiaohmIts the natural step.  Go to Linux then to arm.Feb 22 10:29
MinceRbut keep x on netbooksFeb 22 10:43
MinceRandroid only keeps away most of the apps :>Feb 22 10:43
schestowitzPeople don't need appsFeb 22 10:51
schestowitzThey need hotmail and facebooks junkFeb 22 10:52
schestowitz*facebookFeb 22 10:52
*MinceR is a not-people.Feb 22 10:52
schestowitzNot as far as computers are concernedFeb 22 10:52
oiaohmPC's are slowly turning into devicesFeb 22 11:35
oiaohmTo true computer users this is going to get a annoyance.Feb 22 11:35
schestowitzAppliancing [sic]Feb 22 11:40
schestowitzThe Appliancisation of computing :-)Feb 22 11:40
MinceRthat's what macs are forFeb 22 11:45
*Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.20.200) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 22 12:47
Omar87Hi allFeb 22 12:47
schestowitzHey, what's up?Feb 22 12:48
trmancohttp://identi.ca/notice/2427385Feb 22 13:14
schestowitzHehe. vFeb 22 13:29
schestowitzhttp://seekingalpha.com/?source=wtFeb 22 13:29
trmancoLOLFeb 22 13:36
oiaohmFew 8 page document complete on file formats for long term storage.Feb 22 13:36
oiaohmhttp://sourceforge.net/forum/forum....  Interesting.Feb 22 13:59
oiaohmSearching sourceforge will seach both.Feb 22 14:00
schestowitzFreshmeat?Feb 22 14:08
schestowitzIt was worse when there was some MS intersectionFeb 22 14:09
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/09/c...Feb 22 14:09
oiaohmThinking source forge was intendend to be a project home.Feb 22 14:14
oiaohmAnd freemeat was intented to be a search engine for projects including closed source ones.Feb 22 14:15
oiaohmThere could be a conflit in places.Feb 22 14:15
oiaohmNop sourceforge has filtered.Feb 22 14:16
schestowitzFreshmeat was only FOSS I thought..Feb 22 14:16
*amarsh04__ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-162-151.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 22 14:16
*Mr (i=5aca0d50@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bd3dada2610bc855) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 22 14:16
oiaohmhttp://freshmeat.net/projects/cacheguard...  Programs must run on Linux.  But being open source no such requirement on freshmeatFeb 22 14:17
MrHey Roy, it's me Mike, you out there?Feb 22 14:17
*Mr is now known as Guest33678Feb 22 14:17
*amarsh04_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Feb 22 14:17
schestowitzHey, what's up?Feb 22 14:17
Guest33678i got here eventually:)Feb 22 14:17
schestowitzYeah....Feb 22 14:17
schestowitzSaab is dead, sortaFeb 22 14:18
schestowitzChapter 11Feb 22 14:18
schestowitzGM has Obama paying its bills... y'know, let the public payFeb 22 14:18
Guest33678This thing is only just getting goingFeb 22 14:18
schestowitzSOme people reckon it hasn't collapsed yetFeb 22 14:18
schestowitzMy dad thinks it'll happen some time this yearFeb 22 14:18
Guest33678its certainly in the postFeb 22 14:18
Guest33678did you see the markets close on Friday......shockingFeb 22 14:19
schestowitzFriday?Feb 22 14:20
schestowitzI think I saw ThursdayFeb 22 14:20
Guest33678Dow at all time low, lost 3% on the day, now at 7300 approx, the temporary respite is over, now its business as usualFeb 22 14:20
schestowitzDow at about 7200Feb 22 14:20
Guest33678wowFeb 22 14:20
schestowitzYeah, I think I saw that. Feb 22 14:20
schestowitzPeople ignore this you know?Feb 22 14:21
schestowitzFolks at the gym like Craig don't know about itFeb 22 14:21
Guest33678they do, they don't want to believeFeb 22 14:21
schestowitzVicky doesn't /want/ to know about itFeb 22 14:21
Guest33678they might not realise how badly this will bite us all until it doesFeb 22 14:21
schestowitzWell, dreaming is good tooFeb 22 14:21
schestowitzYou know, like heaven and other fantasiesFeb 22 14:22
schestowitzOr the two illusionist centres of the world -- Washington and Hollywood.Feb 22 14:22
Guest33678an inflationary apocalypse is on the way, i'm not buying into the deflation poppycockFeb 22 14:22
schestowitzEconomic slowdown..Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz"downturn..."Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz"Stimulus"Feb 22 14:22
schestowitz"_bail_ out"Feb 22 14:22
schestowitzToo much Orwellian languageFeb 22 14:23
schestowitz"Recession..."Feb 22 14:23
Guest33678yeah all these buzzwords amount to one thing.....theft!Feb 22 14:23
schestowitz"Public looting?"Feb 22 14:23
Guest33678on a massive scaleFeb 22 14:23
schestowitzI call it that usually... the Independent, IIRC, used this wordFeb 22 14:23
schestowitzLet me find itFeb 22 14:23
Guest33678the rats are deserting the sinking ship, and taking all the booty with themFeb 22 14:23
schestowitzIt was an op ed from OctoberFeb 22 14:23
oiaohmI have already lost my bet on how load the Dow would go.Feb 22 14:24
oiaohmload/lowFeb 22 14:24
Guest33678the economy is being scuttled, could this be the pretext for a new global currency i wonder?Feb 22 14:24
schestowitzHa!Feb 22 14:24
oiaohmUnlikely.Feb 22 14:24
schestowitzFound it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/... (The Bush gang's parting gift: a final, frantic looting of public wealth)Feb 22 14:25
oiaohmBase global currency is gold.Feb 22 14:25
Guest33678gold is now up at 1000 dollars per ounceFeb 22 14:25
Guest33678not much faith in paper money these daysFeb 22 14:25
schestowitzYes, I knowFeb 22 14:25
schestowitzWorse -- bank accountsFeb 22 14:25
schestowitzPeople might trust paper even moreFeb 22 14:25
schestowitzAt least it's transferable.Feb 22 14:26
Guest33678yaFeb 22 14:26
Guest33678will be watching the share indices closely tomorrowFeb 22 14:27
schestowitzFTSE?Feb 22 14:27
Guest33678on its arseFeb 22 14:27
Guest33678not sure is it around 3800Feb 22 14:27
schestowitzIt doesn't mean much, y'know?Feb 22 14:28
schestowitzIndexes are about perceived value.Feb 22 14:28
schestowitzSo it's bound to be impacted by imposed optimismFeb 22 14:29
Guest33678the FTSE and DOW are more the symptomsFeb 22 14:30
Guest33678of the damning bigger pictureFeb 22 14:30
oiaohmIts a chain reaction.Feb 22 14:30
Guest33678but a good indicator of where we are heading none the lessFeb 22 14:31
oiaohmThe world was running on a very big credit card.Feb 22 14:31
Guest33678trueFeb 22 14:31
oiaohmLot of money was created from nothing.Feb 22 14:31
oiaohmNow its gone we have to pay the piper.Feb 22 14:31
Guest33678phantom money borrowed on notional increaswes in property valueFeb 22 14:31
oiaohmCheep to access money inlated house prices.Feb 22 14:32
oiaohminflatedFeb 22 14:32
Guest33678almost every major cityscape in Britain has been transformed in the last ten years, where did all the money come from?Feb 22 14:32
oiaohmBasically everything gone boom.Feb 22 14:32
schestowitzGuest33678: heard of the second madoff yet?Feb 22 14:32
schestowitzAnother guy... $8 billion... one week agoFeb 22 14:32
schestowitzStanford something, IIRCFeb 22 14:32
Guest33678lord such and such a body Stanford is it?Feb 22 14:33
Guest33678Get Ready for Mass Retail ClosingsFeb 22 14:33
oiaohmDifference here you don't need much money to transform a city if you are careful.Feb 22 14:33
schestowitzGuest33678: the campus was renovated at a budget of .6bn poundsFeb 22 14:33
oiaohmCity planners.Feb 22 14:33
Guest33678Empty shopping mallsFeb 22 14:33
oiaohmcontrolling what can and cannot be built can transform a cityFeb 22 14:34
Guest33678tumbleweed blowing down the High StreetFeb 22 14:34
Guest33678:)Feb 22 14:34
schestowitzWhat about places like Dubai, Russia, China...?Feb 22 14:34
oiaohmOther big issue usa has large areas have no poplution in them.Feb 22 14:34
oiaohmSo they will rot.Feb 22 14:34
oiaohmAll thoose building build with cheep mony is disappearing.Feb 22 14:35
oiaohmAfter that process complete everything will have to return to normal.Feb 22 14:35
Guest33678people say head for the hills when civil breakdown starts to happen, trouble is there no-one can hear you screamFeb 22 14:35
oiaohmProblem is that could be 10 years.Feb 22 14:35
oiaohmUsa populations on the street are a large problem.Feb 22 14:35
Guest33678and factor in the guns too = bloodbathFeb 22 14:36
Guest33678there are a lot of angry people out there, desperate angry people, desperate angry people with gunsFeb 22 14:36
Guest33678i am even depressing myself :)Feb 22 14:37
schestowitzGuest33678: in the US it's quietFeb 22 14:37
schestowitzThere's the atmosphere of wartimeFeb 22 14:37
schestowitzPeople don't demand much in emergenciesFeb 22 14:37
Guest33678the calm before the stormFeb 22 14:37
schestowitzBut in France they take it to the streetsFeb 22 14:37
Guest33678bring forth the guillotineFeb 22 14:38
schestowitzIn general, I've read that Europeans are a lot less receptive and more rebellious because they know why they got abused and who is responsibkFeb 22 14:38
schestowitz*sibleFeb 22 14:38
schestowitzGuest33678: crime risesFeb 22 14:39
Guest33678trueFeb 22 14:39
schestowitzBut that's an issue for the government to deal withFeb 22 14:39
schestowitzIt was encouraging to see Obama saying some turthFeb 22 14:39
schestowitzThe BBC commentator talked about the 'stimulus' BS when it was broadcasted liveFeb 22 14:39
schestowitzIt's all about creating optimism, she saidFeb 22 14:39
Guest33678how many jobs are dependent on the survival of GM i wonderFeb 22 14:39
oiaohmReally there is one major risk of these stimulus packagesFeb 22 14:39
schestowitzwhich is true, because they know it's just procrastination and making hopeFeb 22 14:40
oiaohmIf they don't work we are worse off that if they were not done.Feb 22 14:40
schestowitzThe issue is, shoplifter soars and this is just the low-end of the scale.Feb 22 14:40
Guest33678Citibank and Bank of America are in grave trouble toFeb 22 14:40
Guest33678muggings go through the roofFeb 22 14:40
schestowitzWhen people also mug and resort to violence, then it'll be like KatrinaFeb 22 14:40
schestowitzBut not just i New OrleansFeb 22 14:40
schestowitz*inFeb 22 14:40
Guest33678burglariesFeb 22 14:40
oiaohmAustralian people over ours is starting to get worried about how long it will take us to pay off the stimules package.Feb 22 14:40
schestowitzGuest33678: automobile industry in the US = 3 million jobsFeb 22 14:41
oiaohmNow USA's is bigger.Feb 22 14:41
schestowitzI heard it from two independent sourcesFeb 22 14:41
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, exactly.Feb 22 14:41
oiaohmWill it be even possiable to pay of that size debt.Feb 22 14:41
Guest33678there is something very big and very nasty just around the cornerFeb 22 14:41
schestowitzIt's like putting more drugs into a patient to calm him down after overdozing cokeFeb 22 14:41
oiaohmFew of our states had the credit rating drop.Feb 22 14:41
schestowitz*dosingFeb 22 14:41
oiaohmSo they now have to pay more interest.Feb 22 14:41
oiaohmThere is a big nasty chain reaction sitting there.Feb 22 14:42
oiaohmThat could make everything so far look minor.Feb 22 14:42
Guest33678the last shot of adrenalin to the cardiac arrested economy has run its course, we are now flatlining, and there is nothing they can do, the damage is doneFeb 22 14:42
schestowitzGuest33678: what's the proposed resolution then?Feb 22 14:42
schestowitzI've seen this coming for yearsFeb 22 14:43
schestowitzOthers did tooFeb 22 14:43
oiaohmThe correct resolutin is simpleFeb 22 14:43
oiaohmNo goverment is thinking of it.Feb 22 14:43
schestowitzThey were marginalised for the opinion (the opinion that is was marginalised)Feb 22 14:43
*amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-36-74.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovellFeb 22 14:43
oiaohmNot send more cash in.Feb 22 14:43
schestowitzPeople don't want to believe such things until they happen. d/f global warningFeb 22 14:43
oiaohmPrevent cash leaking out the system.Feb 22 14:43
schestowitz*warmingFeb 22 14:43
oiaohmBasically pick on banks.Feb 22 14:43
oiaohmMake them take pain.Feb 22 14:43
schestowitzThat tooFeb 22 14:43
schestowitzBut they control authorityFeb 22 14:44
oiaohmSo avoiding everyone else suffering.Feb 22 14:44
oiaohmLike credit cards with 20 percent interest.Feb 22 14:44
Guest33678usuryFeb 22 14:44
schestowitzThe issue is that to orchestrate restoration of justice you need to find out who masterminded thisFeb 22 14:44
oiaohmThat is not helping the system work.Feb 22 14:44
schestowitzAnd then it gets uglyFeb 22 14:44
schestowitzBecause peoplw without food will demand decentralisation ofg welathFeb 22 14:44
oiaohmYou think about if.  With a stroke of a pen you did away with all credit cards.Feb 22 14:45
schestowitzAnd those who are privileged might have people banging on their front door and waiting at the porchFeb 22 14:45
oiaohmAnd turned them all into interest free lonesFeb 22 14:45
Guest33678i am inclined to believe that this may not have happened per chance, we will have to see what the end game is and how someone could benefitFeb 22 14:45
oiaohmPeople would have to live inside there means.Feb 22 14:45
oiaohmFew months would be chaosFeb 22 14:45
Guest33678trueFeb 22 14:45
oiaohmBut after that there would be more money in the system.Feb 22 14:45
oiaohmSo simple cost to goverment almost nothing.Feb 22 14:45
schestowitzStimuli means making it be worse but take longer to comeFeb 22 14:45
Guest33678sustainable spending, living within ones means are alien concepts to most young people these daysFeb 22 14:46
oiaohmCost to banks major pain.Feb 22 14:46
schestowitzMaybe OBAMAA hopes to make it last 4 yearsFeb 22 14:46
schestowitzLike Bush didFeb 22 14:46
schestowitzThen he can hand it off to RepublicansFeb 22 14:46
schestowitzThey left Dems in a puddle of crapFeb 22 14:46
oiaohmSustainable is the mode everyone needs to move into.Feb 22 14:46
oiaohmFrom that system will stablise.Feb 22 14:47
schestowitzGuest33678: that's to do with advertising. Consumption *is* cultureFeb 22 14:47
oiaohmWhen it working ok again then reintroduce credt in a controlled way.Feb 22 14:47
schestowitzAs one friend told me, in the US, shopping malls are the social placesFeb 22 14:47
Guest33678yaFeb 22 14:47
oiaohmRemember that was done in the great depression as well.Feb 22 14:47
oiaohmIts the one thing that truly works.Feb 22 14:47
schestowitzPeople congragate around thwe ritual of vacationing and buying new things  they needn't buyFeb 22 14:47
oiaohmDifference here you are wrong.Feb 22 14:48
Guest33678its a question of need versus want and not letting want winFeb 22 14:48
schestowitzYesFeb 22 14:48
schestowitzBad wordingFeb 22 14:48
oiaohmTaking out credit cards gives them after a few months setting it more money to buy and vacation with.Feb 22 14:48
schestowitz /needn't/wantn't// :-)Feb 22 14:48
oiaohmCredit cards suck a lot of money up into fat cats who don't spend it.Feb 22 14:49
oiaohmIn these times of trouble.Feb 22 14:49
Guest33678fractional banking doesn't help eitherFeb 22 14:49
Guest33678In Florida, a state devastated by tumbling house prices and repossessions, the inhabitants are arming themselves against recession, with requests for concealed weapon permits up 42 per cent in the past 45 days. In Moscow, the murder rate has climbed by 16 per cent. At Tetsuya's – the most exclusive and expensive restaurant in Sydney – the waiting list has shrunk from three months to 24 hoursFeb 22 14:51
schestowitzURL?Feb 22 14:51
Guest33678http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopic...Feb 22 14:52
Guest33678you going to the gym later Roy?Feb 22 14:53
schestowitzYes, what time..?Feb 22 14:53
Guest33678hang on a secFeb 22 14:54
Guest33678in the evening maybe?Feb 22 14:55
oiaohmFunny enough most Australian banks are only minorally effected.Feb 22 14:55
oiaohmThere was tighter regulation on what they could be invested in.Feb 22 14:55
schestowitzProbably 6Feb 22 14:55
schestowitzoiaohm: say them?Feb 22 14:55
Guest33678didnt the Australian government give a one thousand dollar subsidy to everybody at Christmas?Feb 22 14:55
Guest33678okFeb 22 14:56
oiaohmNo bank lone here can be great than 80 percent of the property value.Feb 22 14:56
oiaohmIt was not 1 thousand dollars to everyone.Feb 22 14:56
Guest33678my friend just emigrated to here from Brisbane, i was running with him todayFeb 22 14:56
oiaohmThe thing was targeted at the poorest in the popultation.Feb 22 14:56
Guest33678means testedFeb 22 14:57
oiaohmNot exactly.Feb 22 14:57
oiaohmIf you were in the cats that the goverment though would waste it you got it.Feb 22 14:57
Guest33678ohFeb 22 14:58
oiaohmNice way of making sure a random money feed into the country happened.Feb 22 14:58
*amarsh04__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Feb 22 14:58


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