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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 22nd, 2009 - Part 2


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oiaohmWorked for chrismasFeb 22 14:58
oiaohmbut USA did not turn around.Feb 22 14:58
oiaohmIt was just a short term kicker.Feb 22 14:58
oiaohmTo buy time to work out what to do next.Feb 22 14:59
Guest33678give em another grand?Feb 22 14:59
oiaohmNo not this time.Feb 22 14:59
Guest336782 grand thenFeb 22 14:59
oiaohmIt training green power generation systems ...Feb 22 14:59
oiaohmAll things we need long term.Feb 22 15:00
oiaohmEven discounts on fitting insultation to houses.Feb 22 15:00
Guest33678we have something similar here in the ukFeb 22 15:00
oiaohmEven so I still see it as not the right thing.Feb 22 15:01
oiaohmIf you have a bucket with 1 million holes.Feb 22 15:01
oiaohmPuting more watter in only buys time.Feb 22 15:01
oiaohmNot fixes problem.Feb 22 15:01
Guest33678don't see how it will help alleviate the problems of the here and now, but then i don't think anybody doesFeb 22 15:01
schestowitzIt's a compromise really.Feb 22 15:02
oiaohmThe alterations might see australia beat its green house targets.Feb 22 15:02
schestowitzYou know, Soros bragged about making money from thisFeb 22 15:02
oiaohmWhen it hits bottom I can make some large money from this.Feb 22 15:03
Guest33678where is the bottom?Feb 22 15:04
oiaohmThat is the question.Feb 22 15:04
oiaohmSomewhere between 6 months and 20 years.Feb 22 15:04
Guest33678i bought some shares in a construction company a few months back they were at 9p on a 52 week high of 300pFeb 22 15:04
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Guest33678they then proceeded to drop to 4pFeb 22 15:05
oiaohmAll depend on how long before goverments do the wrong thing.Feb 22 15:05
oiaohmAnd how much debt they get themselfs into.Feb 22 15:05
oiaohm1 trillion dollars debt you really don't want to think of the interest payment on that.Feb 22 15:05
Guest33678UK debt is now running at €£33,000 for every man woman and childFeb 22 15:06
Guest33678and risingFeb 22 15:06
oiaohmWorst case for the USA is they could get themselfs in so deep there credit could close on them.Feb 22 15:06
Guest33678then what?Feb 22 15:06
Guest33678WW3?Feb 22 15:06
oiaohmwe were at 0 before this mess started.Feb 22 15:08
oiaohmAfter many years of good money management.Feb 22 15:08
oiaohmCurrent worry is $9500 debt per person.Feb 22 15:08
oiaohmFrom current plans to keep everything turning over.Feb 22 15:09
benJImanGuest33678: Does that include mortgage debt?Feb 22 15:09
Guest33678that is an eigth of oursFeb 22 15:09
benJImanGuest33678: You're assuming it's measured the same.Feb 22 15:09
Guest33678eighthFeb 22 15:09
oiaohmAUDFeb 22 15:10
*schestowitz catches upFeb 22 15:10
oiaohm9500 AUDFeb 22 15:10
benJImanI think the €£33k includes mortgage debt.Feb 22 15:10
oiaohmIts a lot less than a 8.Feb 22 15:10
oiaohmI hope so.Feb 22 15:10
schestowitzGuest33678: ah! The stocks rouletteFeb 22 15:10
Guest33678= approxd €£4000 (x 8 = €£32,000)Feb 22 15:10
oiaohm9500 is national debt not internal debts.Feb 22 15:10
schestowitzThe Casino may have better odd than FrausStreet nowadaysFeb 22 15:10
schestowitzGuest33678: got reference for the debt figure?Feb 22 15:11
schestowitzI thought it was just about 1k or 10k pounds per person.Feb 22 15:11
Guest33678telegraph again wait a minFeb 22 15:11
schestowitzAs in, debt of 600 billion poundsFeb 22 15:12
schestowitzIn the US it's similar thenFeb 22 15:12
schestowitz11,000,000,000,000/320,000,000Feb 22 15:12
schestowitzBut in US$Feb 22 15:12
schestowitzSo $30k per personFeb 22 15:13
Guest33678here is the linkFeb 22 15:13
Guest33678 22 15:13
schestowitz2 trillion??Feb 22 15:14
schestowitz$3trFeb 22 15:14
Guest33678yaFeb 22 15:14
oiaohmhousehold debt is also droping here.Feb 22 15:14
schestowitzSo no netter than the USFeb 22 15:14
oiaohmPeople have doubled what they are paying off.Feb 22 15:15
schestowitzAssuming in the US they calculate non-comparible things.Feb 22 15:15
oiaohmSo yes we do have panicFeb 22 15:15
schestowitzLike no debtFeb 22 15:15
schestowitzThat's why I realise that people underestimate the deficitFeb 22 15:15
schestowitzThey cite figures like $1500 per personFeb 22 15:15
Guest33678How long would it take a family of four to pay €£132,000 via taxes etc, over and above what it already pays to keep the country working?Feb 22 15:17
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Guest33678Assuming the two adults each earn the median wage of say €£25,000 paFeb 22 15:20
schestowitzDo you reckon macroeconomists saw this coming?Feb 22 15:21
oiaohmAustralian kinda did.Feb 22 15:21
oiaohmWe just have a problem now.  Wrong type of goverment in.Feb 22 15:21
oiaohmWe put in a spending govermentFeb 22 15:22
oiaohmNot a smart tatical one.Feb 22 15:22
schestowitzBut they follow othersFeb 22 15:23
schestowitzThe issue was imaginary wealthFeb 22 15:23
schestowitzLike patents, like mortgagesFeb 22 15:23
schestowitzSo Australia may assume its banks and commerce has some actual valueFeb 22 15:23
schestowitzBut everyone is fooling everyone.Feb 22 15:23
oiaohmmortgages here are highly regulateed.Feb 22 15:24
schestowitzI actually wonder how many technology companies like Microsoft and Novell will buckle under the load. They already make visits to their banks to check that they have something in there.Feb 22 15:24
oiaohmSo most property dips don't set off problems.Feb 22 15:24
schestowitzoiaohm: what do you base this on?Feb 22 15:24
oiaohmUsa no limits you could loan 100 percent of value of property.Feb 22 15:25
oiaohmThat is not allowed here.Feb 22 15:25
schestowitzAccording to Microsoft, Windows security is highly regulatedFeb 22 15:25
schestowitzAccording to Rupert, Fox delivers the newsFeb 22 15:25
oiaohm20 percent of the property must be paid for when it aquired.Feb 22 15:25
oiaohmSo at worst for bank is 80 percent of value lost.Feb 22 15:26
schestowitzThey can reclaim the propertyFeb 22 15:26
oiaohmHopefully it should be able to sell property for 20 percent of the land value.Feb 22 15:26
oiaohmIt required a big crunch before bad starts happing.Feb 22 15:26
oiaohmUSA went one step into deep dont areas.Feb 22 15:27
oiaohmSome building even if land value did change were moraged to 3 times there land value.Feb 22 15:27
oiaohmIn the USAFeb 22 15:27
oiaohmThat is basically asking for big boom.Feb 22 15:27
schestowitzSome theorise that the US takes the blameFeb 22 15:27
schestowitzFor chain reaction going out of equilibrium in the first place.Feb 22 15:28
oiaohmCredit cards here lack needed regulation.Feb 22 15:28
schestowitzBut I don't know about itFeb 22 15:28
schestowitzPointing fingers it easy.Feb 22 15:28
oiaohmThey could set off a chain reaction.Feb 22 15:28
oiaohmAreas in the system not regulated can cause problems.Feb 22 15:28
oiaohmEvery country has some sections of there money system that needs fixing.Feb 22 15:29
schestowitzWhat about chief chef Greespin[sic]?Feb 22 15:29
schestowitzAnd those who defended him (and still do)?Feb 22 15:29
schestowitzHe blamed the 'machines', but he's the one who also encouraged spendings for how long? Decades in the seat?Feb 22 15:30
oiaohmIts not machines.Feb 22 15:30
schestowitzWhat about other oracles?Feb 22 15:30
schestowitzoiaohm: computer modelsFeb 22 15:30
oiaohmLack of regs allowed this hell to form.Feb 22 15:30
schestowitz Maybe they had the wrong computer models on the computers. XXX ratedFeb 22 15:31
schestowitzAsleep at the wheelFeb 22 15:31
oiaohmcomputers just acted a amplifaction.Feb 22 15:31
schestowitzThey have access to a lot of information the public cannot see.Feb 22 15:31
oiaohmHumans in the past caused equal messes.Feb 22 15:31
schestowitzand they convene annually to discuss this stuff, albeit very secretly.Feb 22 15:31
schestowitzoiaohm: well, if you feed the 'computers' nonsene, then nonsense yoy get outFeb 22 15:31
schestowitzIt's like 'cooked' researchFeb 22 15:32
oiaohmYep basic you cannot blame a computer.Feb 22 15:32
oiaohma human screwed up somewhere.Feb 22 15:32
schestowitzBase in on the wants (I want to spend), then your model may actually justify thisFeb 22 15:32
schestowitzSelf-fulfilling prophecies so to speakFeb 22 15:32
oiaohmUSA went threw a process removing regulation after regulation.Feb 22 15:33
oiaohmUntil it go to the point that you could put anything in a item traded and traders could not find out what they were buying in selling.Feb 22 15:33
oiaohmBasically you could have been trading in nothingnessFeb 22 15:34
oiaohminstead of loans and causes.Feb 22 15:34
schestowitzYahoo May Overhaul Top Management Next Week, Report Says < >Feb 22 15:34
oiaohmThat is what sent the system down.Feb 22 15:34
schestowitzYes, and many companies are part of thisFeb 22 15:35
schestowitzThey paid to settle this fraudFeb 22 15:35
oiaohmIssue here regulators in Australia could not stop Australians from buying it.Feb 22 15:35
schestowitzI don't now many companies closeltyFeb 22 15:35
schestowitzBut..Feb 22 15:35
schestowitzThose that I studies did thisFeb 22 15:35
schestowitzNovell settled with the SECFeb 22 15:35
schestowitzAs did MicrosoftFeb 22 15:35
oiaohmWe need a full blown regulation framework.Feb 22 15:35
oiaohmWhere trading in secerct items is forbin globally.Feb 22 15:36
schestowitzSo they know they commit fraud and they just pay the regulators to be left alone.Feb 22 15:36
oiaohmUSA what regulatorsFeb 22 15:36
schestowitzHad investors had the means, they would be right to sue whoever profited from this over the yearsFeb 22 15:36
oiaohmThat was the issue.Feb 22 15:36
oiaohmGoverment over there had got rid of most of them.Feb 22 15:36
schestowitzPeople also sold short before the meltdownFeb 22 15:36
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oiaohmAgain not the causeFeb 22 15:36
oiaohmJust a reaction.Feb 22 15:36
schestowitzThe SEC then put an end to it (cure after the plague)Feb 22 15:36
schestowitzThat's what happens when the cdompanies are inchanrge of governnanceFeb 22 15:37
schestowitzThey get rid of their watchersFeb 22 15:37
oiaohmYep and start a time bomb ticking.Feb 22 15:37
oiaohmThat will explode at some point.Feb 22 15:37
schestowitzAnd Milton Friedman would sing about the wonder of the 'free' marketFeb 22 15:37
schestowitzLike the markets 'take care of themselves'Feb 22 15:38
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oiaohmOk free does a true free market contain fraud.Feb 22 15:38
schestowitzWith another idiotic antitrust regulator on her way, apparently.Feb 22 15:38
schestowitz"free" means many thingsFeb 22 15:38
oiaohmFraud and free markets really don't go hand and hand.Feb 22 15:38
schestowitzIn English anywayFeb 22 15:38
oiaohmIf people are tricking other people out of there money for nothing.Feb 22 15:39
schestowitzLike "open"Feb 22 15:39
oiaohmPeople will stop investing.Feb 22 15:39
oiaohmIe that kind of fraud.Feb 22 15:39
schestowitzThey already doFeb 22 15:39
oiaohmSo market fails.Feb 22 15:39
schestowitz 22 15:39
oiaohmRegulators job is basically to reduce that.Feb 22 15:39
schestowitzJournal Register files for bankruptcy protection < >Feb 22 15:39
oiaohmSo there has to be real items on the other side.Feb 22 15:39
oiaohmOr that the invester knows how much trouble they are getting into.Feb 22 15:40
oiaohmRegulators don't have to interfer in market actions as such.Feb 22 15:40
oiaohmJust prevent lieing.Feb 22 15:40
schestowitz 22 15:40
schestowitz"Other recent jewelery bankruptcies include:Feb 22 15:40
schestowitzLexington JewelersFeb 22 15:40
schestowitzLuxury Ventures LLCFeb 22 15:40
schestowitzLexington Jewelers Exchange Inc.Feb 22 15:40
schestowitzFour Points Corp.Feb 22 15:40
schestowitzDiastar Inc.Feb 22 15:40
schestowitzOTC International Ltd.Feb 22 15:40
schestowitzL.I.D. Ltd.Feb 22 15:40
schestowitz"Feb 22 15:40
oiaohmHmm why are they going under.Feb 22 15:41
oiaohmDon't they have gold reservesFeb 22 15:41
schestowitzHeh.Feb 22 15:41
oiaohmMost of ours here are not in any trouble.Feb 22 15:41
schestowitzWell, they need a meltdown if you know what I meanFeb 22 15:41
schestowitzNot *that* sort of meltdownFeb 22 15:41
schestowitzoiaohm: good.Feb 22 15:41
oiaohmI am being serous here. Jewellers here must have so much in reserves like banks.Feb 22 15:42
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oiaohmIf they don't they are not allowed to buy and sell gold to make jewellery.Feb 22 15:43
schestowitzIs it just gold that's valuable?Feb 22 15:43
schestowitzI mean, it's the products that make the worthFeb 22 15:44
oiaohmBullion.Feb 22 15:44
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schestowitzBilliob?Feb 22 15:44
oiaohmRaw tradeable gold.Feb 22 15:44
schestowitzTurns out the national debt in the UK is 3 trillion dollarsFeb 22 15:44
oiaohmEither in ouch coins or barsFeb 22 15:44
oiaohmthey must have reservses.Feb 22 15:44
schestowitzoiaohm: well, fine then but it comes back to debates like "what is currency"?Feb 22 15:44
schestowitzI mean, national resources like oil are the Holy Grail.Feb 22 15:44
schestowitzSo large countries want energy, which is turn can also product food ('human' fuel)Feb 22 15:45
oiaohmAUD is street currency here.Feb 22 15:45
oiaohmOnce you start trading the base currency is gold.Feb 22 15:45
oiaohmstill after all these years.Feb 22 15:45
schestowitzWell, maybe the bankruptcy protection plan can involve paying in gold, who knows?Feb 22 15:46
schestowitzbankruptcy != shutting downFeb 22 15:46
oiaohmHere they would not be going under.Feb 22 15:46
oiaohmAs so as they have to it there reserves they are basically stoped from trading.Feb 22 15:46
schestowitzIt's already down under :-)Feb 22 15:46
schestowitzAUFeb 22 15:46
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schestowitz"The pace of hiring at Microsoft continues to slow." < >Feb 22 15:48
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Balroghello everyoneFeb 22 16:03
schestowitzHey, what's up?Feb 22 16:03
Balrognot too muchFeb 22 16:03
Balrogsaw this? 22 16:04
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schestowitzBunch of < > arseholes < > eat choke < > :-)Feb 22 16:09
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Balrogyes. :/Feb 22 16:09
schestowitzHey, Mr.Feb 22 16:09
schestowitzWhat happened?Feb 22 16:09
schestowitzBTW, Mandriva updated to Firefox3 today (finally). It's a lot faster and quite nice indeedFeb 22 16:09
Guest87775had to do some diyFeb 22 16:09
schestowitzIt broke compatibility with a few plugins I likedFeb 22 16:10
Balrogyes. FF3 is superior. Which plugins?Feb 22 16:10
schestowitzhad to do some do..?Feb 22 16:10
schestowitzBalrog: Googlebar for startedFeb 22 16:10
schestowitzFF3 won't even allow it to be installed for security reasonsFeb 22 16:10
Balrogthe official one? There should be an update.Feb 22 16:10
Balrog'security reasons'? interestingFeb 22 16:11
schestowitzMy old theme is not compatible either, so I 'shopped' for some new onesFeb 22 16:11
schestowitzI'd rather it just used Qt and inherited the properties from KDE settings.Feb 22 16:11
schestowitzBalrog: Firefox thing... not Google's fault. I don't like using GOogle's waresFeb 22 16:11
BalroghehFeb 22 16:11
BalrogKDE4.2 is nice.Feb 22 16:11
BalrogYeah, I know....Feb 22 16:12
Balrogthough Google Gears is FOSS, right?Feb 22 16:12
schestowitzIs it alive?Feb 22 16:12
schestowitzPractically?Feb 22 16:12
Balrogyeah Offline Gmail uses itFeb 22 16:13
Balrogamong other thingsFeb 22 16:13
schestowitzThere's this silly firm strutting for quite some time under the slogan/banner "Cheaper than Open Source?" 22 16:14
schestowitzThere's some new meme that justified the fact that FOSS is cheaperFeb 22 16:14
schestowitzBut they try to counter this with proprietary waresFeb 22 16:14
Balrogit would be even cheaper if the software was FOSSFeb 22 16:14
Balrogtrue, the hardware could be proprietary, and they still would make money.Feb 22 16:14
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Guest87775hey roy i may have to forgoe my gym trip ce soir, i am being commandeered into bathroom diy duties by she who must be obeyed...grrrFeb 22 16:14
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schestowitzHehe.Feb 22 16:15
schestowitzWell, I'll be there at 6 anywayFeb 22 16:15
schestowitzBalrog: not if they obey GPLv3 maybe... TivoisationFeb 22 16:16
BalrogI didn't mean that wayFeb 22 16:16
Guest87775if i get chance i will pop across, i am involved in a big sealant contract, very messyFeb 22 16:16
zer0c00lschestowitz: this weekend we have conducted a two day workshop on Gnu/Linux and foss technologies :)Feb 22 16:16
Balrogmake their hardware somehow unique that people will buy itFeb 22 16:16
Balrog:)Feb 22 16:16
schestowitzGuest87775: come back later.Feb 22 16:17
Balrogmaybe dependent on one of those things called a real patent (not the software type)Feb 22 16:17
schestowitzIt's always activeFeb 22 16:17
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schestowitzzer0c00l: Fedora?Feb 22 16:17
zer0c00lwe used fedoraFeb 22 16:17
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zer0c00lalso distributed ubuntuFeb 22 16:17
Guest87775we need to meet up and go for a kebab sometime Roy, now that i know about this room i can contact you to make arrangements in the week, this is very handy:)Feb 22 16:17
zer0c00laddressed 370 peopleFeb 22 16:18
zer0c00lall are studentsFeb 22 16:18
schestowitzGuest87775: yes, faster than E-mailFeb 22 16:18
zer0c00lEngineering,arts and scienceFeb 22 16:18
schestowitzE-mail is rendered dead by spamFeb 22 16:18
Guest87775lolFeb 22 16:18
schestowitzMike, next week is importantyFeb 22 16:19
schestowitzLayoffs I hear..Feb 22 16:19
schestowitzIncluding at NovellFeb 22 16:19
schestowitzWhich, as the name of this channel suggests, is very relevant to the discussionFeb 22 16:19
Guest87775i sense that this week is going to be a big one, you're rightFeb 22 16:19
BalrogThese layoffs suck. The marketing people are laying off some of the best programmers / engineers / etcFeb 22 16:19
Balrogand the products sufferFeb 22 16:19
schestowitzUK and Ireland will get the big axe too from Novell... Germany probably the mostFeb 22 16:20
Guest87775true, i've had to say goodbye to some good men (and women)Feb 22 16:20
schestowitzBalrog: same in NovellFeb 22 16:20
schestowitzThey hire marketing peopleFeb 22 16:20
schestowitzWhile laying off engineersFeb 22 16:20
Balrogyeah. The wrong way to do thingsFeb 22 16:20
BalrogD:Feb 22 16:20
schestowitzTrom Spiner (??) from ZDNET grilled Novell UK's boss last weekFeb 22 16:20
schestowitzit was amusing to see McCarry answering so tactlessFeb 22 16:20
schestowitzSaying layoffs are not a big deadFeb 22 16:20
Balrogremember what happened when Apple was run by marketing peopleFeb 22 16:20
schestowitzThen the interviewer says "THEY ARE to those who lose jobsFeb 22 16:21
schestowitzSo the new Novell manage also says they added sales peopleFeb 22 16:21
schestowitzSo Tom replies by saying, "don't you need people to also develop products?" (not exact quote)Feb 22 16:21
schestowitzBalrog: Apple is STILL run by marketing (maybe not people), no?Feb 22 16:22
schestowitzThe whole business is also based on silencing criticsFeb 22 16:22
Balrogwell not like in the late 80's and 90's when the product fell apart because of lack of engineeringFeb 22 16:23
schestowitzGuest87775: I'm not sure gym is even a priority anywayFeb 22 16:23
Balrogespecially with the OSFeb 22 16:23
Balrogremember Pink, Taligent, and Copland and all?Feb 22 16:23
Balrogall vaporwareFeb 22 16:23
schestowitzBalrog: I can't rememberFeb 22 16:23
schestowitzI'm too young to know it 'first ahnd'Feb 22 16:24
schestowitzThis reminds me that I need to do Comes later this yearFeb 22 16:24
schestowitzThere's lots of stuff there that was never made publicly accessible, just to lawyers at best... until settlementFeb 22 16:24
Balrogwell then read up on it. Yes, Apple isn't perfect, but their history tells a lot about what happens to companies that conduct business based on marketingFeb 22 16:24
BalrogI'm younger than you, believe it or not :pFeb 22 16:25
schestowitzNovell is revving up the marketing side these daysFeb 22 16:26
schestowitzIt hired a London-based firm and another one from YorkshireFeb 22 16:26
schestowitzThey will try to game search enginesFeb 22 16:26
Balrogheh. marketing over engineeringFeb 22 16:26
schestowitzNovell is also polluting YouTube now..Feb 22 16:26
schestowitzBalrog: Perception over truthFeb 22 16:26
schestowitzLet me find somethingFeb 22 16:26
Balrogthat too. Except that it's working less and less.Feb 22 16:27
BalrogWhen you have a product that sucks, no amount of marketing will get the majority of people to buy itFeb 22 16:27
Balrogthere will be a few who willFeb 22 16:27
BalrogthoughFeb 22 16:27
schestowitzNever mind,  I can't find it.. 22 16:28
schestowitzThere's a nice image I have in mind for symbolising distributionFeb 22 16:28
schestowitzVista7 is all distortion, much like Vista wasFeb 22 16:28
BalrogcertainlyFeb 22 16:28
Balrogthat's why even though the media may make it out to be a great OS, people probably won't be impressed.Feb 22 16:29
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schestowitzMicrosoft inernal E-mails (2005-2006): "it's a pig... I can't install it, etc etc." In public: "Bill Gates wants you to write for "Show us your wow""Feb 22 16:29
schestowitzWow Feb 22 16:29
schestowitzWow Wow.. and they spread the perception that people are all saying "wow"Feb 22 16:29
schestowitzHalf a billion dollars spent on this at the time.Feb 22 16:29
Balrogbut people aren't. Everyone hates Windows and VistaFeb 22 16:29
Balrogwell not everyone, but a good majorityFeb 22 16:29
schestowitzAlmost everyoneFeb 22 16:30
schestowitzYes, beat me to itFeb 22 16:30
schestowitzSelection for truth,..Feb 22 16:30
Balrogyeah. There are always going to be some fanatics for each platformFeb 22 16:30
schestowitzMS needs to find the feeble or biased and amplify those voices.Feb 22 16:30
schestowitzSame as in political newsFeb 22 16:30
schestowitzYou choose magnitude for each factor among the set of factsFeb 22 16:30
schestowitzLike reporting deaths only on the side of US troppsFeb 22 16:31
schestowitzBut never Iraqi civiliansFeb 22 16:31
Balrogyeah. :(Feb 22 16:31
schestowitzShow 9/11 widows (nothing to do wit Iraq), but not Iraqi kids burned by US napalm (illegal weapon)Feb 22 16:31
schestowitzThe propaganda model is alarmingly strong. < >Feb 22 16:32
schestowitz"Propaganda campaigns in general have been closely attuned to elite interests. The Red scare of I9I9-20 served well to abort the union organizing drive that followed World War I in the steel and other industries. The Truman-McCarthy Red scare helped inaugurate the Cold War and the permanent war economy, and it also served to weaken the progressive coalition of the New Deal years."Feb 22 16:33
schestowitz"The anti-Communist control mechanism reaches through the system to exercise a profound influence on the mass media. In normal times as well as in periods of Red scares, issues tend to be framed in terms of a dichotomized world of Communist and anti-Communist .."Feb 22 16:34
schestowitz"...powers, with gains and losses allocated to contesting sides, and rooting for "our side" considered an entirely legitimate news practice. It is the mass media that identify, create, and push into the limelight a Joe McCarthy, Arkady Shevchenko, and Claire Sterling and Robert Leiken, or an Annie Kriegel and Pierre Daix. The ideology and religion of anticommunism is a potent filter..."Feb 22 16:34
Balrogyeah.Feb 22 16:34
schestowitzThink about certain news sites versus othersFeb 22 16:34
Balrogyes definitelyFeb 22 16:34
schestowitzThey just need to vilify the 'bad ones' like Al Jazeera and glorify Bill O'Reilly.Feb 22 16:34
Balrogthe internet has changed this a lot as it's less controlledFeb 22 16:34
Balrognearly uncontrolledFeb 22 16:34
schestowitzLet me find somethingFeb 22 16:35
schestowitzAbout Microsoft attacking GroklawFeb 22 16:36
BalrogI wouldn't be surprised about thatFeb 22 16:36
schestowitzI can't find itFeb 22 16:37
schestowitzThere: 22 16:38
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schestowitzThey usually attack the critics using proxies like Enderle, whom they used to attack PJ personally (Enderle is paid by Microsoft and talks to the Ballmer Bully)Feb 22 16:40
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Balrogheh...proof anywhere?Feb 22 16:40
Balrogyeah I knew that partFeb 22 16:40
BalrogThey obviously are making claims without backing...Feb 22 16:42
schestowitzYes, there's proofFeb 22 16:42
Balrogthat IBM is behind GroklawFeb 22 16:42
Balrogthat's the proof I'm asking forFeb 22 16:42
BalrogI know about EnderleFeb 22 16:42
schestowitzMail to ballmer: 22 16:42
Balrogyeah I know thatFeb 22 16:42
schestowitzEnderle and Microsoft's Waggener Edstrom: 22 16:43
schestowitzBalrog: they manufactured stuff like ibiblio is among many funders of ibiblioFeb 22 16:43
Balrogheh\Feb 22 16:43
schestowitzAt best they could say that IBM is one among many companies that cover PJ's hosting billFeb 22 16:43
BalrogI see.Feb 22 16:44
schestowitzWhich would be worth like.. what? A few dollars?Feb 22 16:44
Balrogdepending on traffic, it could be a few hundred, I supposeFeb 22 16:44
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Balrogwhich is still small changeFeb 22 16:44
Balrogin that worldFeb 22 16:44
schestowitzBalrog: well, just IBM's share though.Feb 22 16:45
Balrogok.Feb 22 16:45
Balrogalso what about IE being stuck at 6 for as long as it was, while Firefox and the competitiors moved quickly......Feb 22 16:46
schestowitzEven if a few tens of dollars' worth, that hardly compare to the value if writing Groklaw like 100 hours/weekFeb 22 16:46
Balrogyeah.Feb 22 16:46
schestowitzI think IE6 was designed to freeze the WebFeb 22 16:47
Balrogprobably.Feb 22 16:47
schestowitzMake it crippled, bring less diruption (aka innovation)Feb 22 16:47
schestowitzSee NetscapeFeb 22 16:47
schestowitzSee Netscape memosFeb 22 16:47
schestowitzThey knew Web-based apps were comingFeb 22 16:47
schestowitzin 1995Feb 22 16:47
BalrogFunny thing that MS dropped IE for Mac and allowed Safari to move (even though it had problems early on, it went a long way)Feb 22 16:47
schestowitz 22 16:47
Balrogyeah.Feb 22 16:48
schestowitzThey had to give IE to macFeb 22 16:49
schestowitzAttackon NetscapeFeb 22 16:49
schestowitzI had Netscape on a Mac (OS 9) at workFeb 22 16:49
schestowitzThen the lousy IE tooFeb 22 16:49
BalrogI know, but why did they terminate it by 2002 or so?Feb 22 16:49
Balrogwhen Safari became availableFeb 22 16:49
schestowitzApple-MS hug video: 22 16:49
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Balroghmm. WordPerfect was one of the best word processors for Mac. WAY better than Word. But they quit making it like in 98Feb 22 16:51
schestowitzSee 22 16:51
BalrogThe IE part has been broken for a while nowFeb 22 16:51
schestowitzI still need to make posts from theseFeb 22 16:51
schestowitzMaybe later in the yearFeb 22 16:51
Balrogok.Feb 22 16:51
schestowitz 22 16:52
BalrogWordPerfect for Windows wasn't as good, by the wayFeb 22 16:52
Balrogfor Mac was awesomeFeb 22 16:52
Balrogheh ... "The HTML-mode is also interesting. We do hope to avoid that modal state, but it does resonate .."Feb 22 16:52
BalrogI LOVED show codesFeb 22 16:52
BalrogWord never had it.Feb 22 16:53
schestowitzSome people still use WP for this reasonFeb 22 16:53
BalrogI know.Feb 22 16:53
schestowitzEven on low-end terminalsFeb 22 16:53
schestowitzThey need to see the codesFeb 22 16:53
schestowitzTo Microsoft, it's a no-goFeb 22 16:53
schestowitzLike transparent PNG supportFeb 22 16:54
Balrogyeah. :(Feb 22 16:54
schestowitzAnything useful like bottom-postingFeb 22 16:54
BalrogBTW, MS quit IE for mac June 13, 2003Feb 22 16:54
schestowitz 22 16:54
schestowitz"Lock the doors and lock up your girls and daughters.. I saw a top-poster... must be some MS shenanigan in town"Feb 22 16:55
Balrogheh. not surprisedFeb 22 16:58
BalrogInteresting that IE for Mac used a different layout engineFeb 22 17:00
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*schestowitz back at 8Feb 22 17:10
BalrogkFeb 22 17:10
Balrog8 what timeFeb 22 17:11
Balrog?Feb 22 17:11
Balrog(timezone*)Feb 22 17:11
schestowitzgmtFeb 22 17:11
BalrogkFeb 22 17:11
zer0c00lbyeFeb 22 17:13
zer0c00lgood nightFeb 22 17:13
BalrogbyeFeb 22 17:13
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Balrogschestowitz: you misspelled "GROKLOW"Feb 22 18:44
Balrogin "Novell News Summary - Part IV: SCO Update, Report Coming Up, Teaming Deal"Feb 22 18:44
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schestowitzThanks  million, Balrog. Funny typo, fixed now.Feb 22 19:28
BalrognpFeb 22 19:28
*schestowitz goes through 600 news items about MS nowFeb 22 19:28
Balrogthose suck when people quote it and put [sic] after itFeb 22 19:28
Balrogheh :/Feb 22 19:28
schestowitzIt was a name and preceded by hypertext hybrid, so I could spot the typoFeb 22 19:29
Balrogyes.Feb 22 19:29
schestowitzI usually add the first letter 'in line' to test the words for typos. It's common.Feb 22 19:29
BalrogI see.Feb 22 19:30
Balroga is easy to confuse with o in many casesFeb 22 19:30
schestowitzYou can't even visually discern to see the typo because there's markup in there, so the eye doesn't catch itFeb 22 19:30
BalroghehFeb 22 19:30
schestowitzI see that Microsoft Vista reappears because of a SP.Feb 22 19:31
schestowitzThey should really do better work hiding the V word. It's bad for business. They need to beat the vapourware drum instead.Feb 22 19:31
*MrMidland (i=5aca0d50@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellFeb 22 19:31
schestowitz"V" for vapourware, not for "Vista"Feb 22 19:31
Balrogyeah. Though even that kind of marketing will eventually failFeb 22 19:32
schestowitzMrMidland: what's up Mike?Feb 22 19:32
schestowitzI spoke to SteveOFeb 22 19:32
MrMidlandhowdey RoyFeb 22 19:32
schestowitzHe knows what's happeningFeb 22 19:32
MrMidlandwhat he say?Feb 22 19:32
schestowitzWell....Feb 22 19:32
schestowitzHe knows the historical background nowFeb 22 19:32
schestowitzSome people don't know why you're gloating about itFeb 22 19:32
schestowitzMy theory is that it's because you knew about it in advnace and warned peopleFeb 22 19:32
schestowitzNow you deserve some creditFeb 22 19:33
Balrogwait who you're talking to?Feb 22 19:33
schestowitzCredit not in *THAT* sence :-)Feb 22 19:33
schestowitz*senseFeb 22 19:33
MrMidlandlolFeb 22 19:33
schestowitzBalrog: to MikeFeb 22 19:33
BalrogI see now :)Feb 22 19:33
schestowitzFriend from over here.Feb 22 19:33
Balrogo.Feb 22 19:33
Balrogok *Feb 22 19:33
schestowitzMrMidland: Mr. Softie (Mcirosoft) is going downFeb 22 19:33
MrMidlandare they?Feb 22 19:34
schestowitzWhat do you think of your new... Vista?Feb 22 19:34
MrMidlandit hasn't crashed yetFeb 22 19:34
schestowitzMrMidland:  gradually, but many others do tooFeb 22 19:34
MrMidlandi bought a new pc from aldi...a medionFeb 22 19:34
schestowitzHere in this channel we promote Free(dom) software.Feb 22 19:34
schestowitzYou saw my machine, right?Feb 22 19:34
MrMidlandyeahFeb 22 19:34
schestowitzWindows is given for mere $5 on some machines just so that people don't preload GNU/LinuxFeb 22 19:34
BalrogFor me, windows works for like 3-6 months. At first, well, then eventually I need to reformatFeb 22 19:35
schestowitzSo that they know nothing about options.;.. other than "Mac" and "PC"Feb 22 19:35
BalrogI don't use Windows as a primary OS anymore because of thatFeb 22 19:35
Balrogand Mac is tied to hardware.Feb 22 19:35
schestowitzBalrog: yeah...Feb 22 19:35
schestowitzI saw like 8 headlines just now about Ballmer's remark about AppleFeb 22 19:35
schestowitz"Hey, we're criminals... but Apple is less open"Feb 22 19:35
MrMidlandi hear a lot of people dont like Vista, i am not an expert though,Feb 22 19:36
Balrogdecent hardwareFeb 22 19:36
Balrogheh ... apple is less open .... true with their hardware platform, that's for sureFeb 22 19:36
schestowitzBalrog: Vista on strong h/w might be tolerable.Feb 22 19:36
MrMidlandhow can you tell what machine i'm runningFeb 22 19:36
schestowitzBut also to those who needn't rely on specialised appsFeb 22 19:36
Balrogyeah but it sucks in other waysFeb 22 19:36
schestowitzLikewise, Linux is great for such usersFeb 22 19:36
BalrogI had OS X 10.5 running well on a Dual-450 MHz G4 computerFeb 22 19:36
schestowitzMrMidland: you told me. You bought one from AldiFeb 22 19:36
MrMidlandcould recommend a good anti virus (free)Feb 22 19:37
schestowitzMrMidland: LinuxFeb 22 19:37
BalrogHow big is your hard drive?Feb 22 19:37
schestowitzIt uninstalls Windows thoughFeb 22 19:37
MrMidland640gbFeb 22 19:37
Balrog 22 19:37
Balroguse thatFeb 22 19:37
MrMidlandthxFeb 22 19:37
schestowitz:-)Feb 22 19:37
Balrogthat's linux within windowsFeb 22 19:37
Balrogwon't mess with the windows at all.Feb 22 19:37
schestowitzYes.Feb 22 19:38
Balrogso "It uninstalls Windows though" won't be the case.Feb 22 19:38
schestowitzAnd it's free.Feb 22 19:38
Balrogyeah.Feb 22 19:38
schestowitzBalrog: I was joking.Feb 22 19:38
BalroghehFeb 22 19:38
MrMidlandok i might try this, but i'd need Roy to be on hand if anything goes wrongFeb 22 19:38
BalrogMrMidland: I've done tests. Nothing will get messed up with your windows install.Feb 22 19:39
MrMidlandmy computer is my job and i am very green in these areasFeb 22 19:39
BalrogIf you crash Linux, reboot into Windows, go to Add/Remove Programs, and take it outFeb 22 19:39
schestowitzMrMidland: Microsoft Slammed With Suit Over Vista-To-XP Downgrade Fees  < >Feb 22 19:39
Balrogit's just another application :)Feb 22 19:39
BalrogI saw thatFeb 22 19:39
MrMidlandok thxFeb 22 19:39
Balrogschestowitz: Fedora is nice but there's no wubi-style installer for itFeb 22 19:40
MrMidlandso are microsoft going to be the next big shoe to fall do you reckon?Feb 22 19:40
schestowitzThere's the Debian installer for WindowsFeb 22 19:40
BalrogOh btw, Wubi doesn't even mess with the Vista bootloaderFeb 22 19:40
schestowitzDunno about Fedora. Nothing I can...Feb 22 19:40
schestowitzOh, maybe there was somethingFeb 22 19:40
schestowitzHold on.Feb 22 19:40
Balrogwell, too close to UbuntuFeb 22 19:40
BalrogI want fedoraFeb 22 19:40
Balrogso you don't have to worry about those recent updates that rewrite the bootloader, as Wubi doesn't touch it :)Feb 22 19:41
schestowitzFedora doesn't do that yet, I think.. 22 19:41
Balrogstill requires resizingFeb 22 19:41
schestowitzMrMidland: no, not the next oneFeb 22 19:41
BalroginterestingFeb 22 19:41
schestowitzBut somewhere along the lineFeb 22 19:41
schestowitzThey enter debt soonFeb 22 19:41
schestowitzBut they claim to have assets... just not physical onesFeb 22 19:41
schestowitzThey have.. patentsFeb 22 19:42
schestowitzAnd code...Feb 22 19:42
schestowitzI.e. tissue paper assets.Feb 22 19:42
Balrogyeah patents which get thrown out in BilskiFeb 22 19:42
MrMidlandi suppose with money being tight around the world, people might be more inclined to look at cheaper/better alternatives to WindowsFeb 22 19:42
schestowitzThey now rely on corrupting polititian into honouring these.. in countries like IndiaFeb 22 19:42
Balrogcode .... well they're laying off people who do stuff and hiring marketersFeb 22 19:42
schestowitzBalrog: ayeFeb 22 19:42
schestowitzMrMidland: it's not about priceFeb 22 19:43
Balroglike their whole simulation 'game' divisionFeb 22 19:43
schestowitzIt's about controlling your PCFeb 22 19:43
schestowitzMicrosoft owns the software on your PCFeb 22 19:43
schestowitzThey can disable itFeb 22 19:43
Balrogyeah. Remember TPM and Palladium?Feb 22 19:43
schestowitzThey prevent you from playing your music... when they'll decide toFeb 22 19:43
MrMidlandremotley?Feb 22 19:43
schestowitzYesFeb 22 19:43
BalrogWe're all lucky it never went throughFeb 22 19:43
schestowitzIn China they did this... Black Screens of DeathFeb 22 19:43
BalrogYes, if it's from MS or uses MS technologyFeb 22 19:43
schestowitzThey also put back doors there for the SpooksFeb 22 19:43
Balrog(in the case of music, WMA DRM; in the case of Windows, WGA)Feb 22 19:44
schestowitzTo 'save' the childrenFeb 22 19:44
MrMidlandits a dirty businessFeb 22 19:44
Balrogit sucks that all the good games are for windows thoughFeb 22 19:44
schestowitzMrMidland: the point is, Apple and Mcirosoft make it more draconian over timeFeb 22 19:44
Balrogwith Microsoft by far the worstFeb 22 19:44
schestowitzThey work along with other companies and authorities to put their own 'features' in the O/S.Feb 22 19:44
MrMidlandthese big corporations have some very influential lobbyistsFeb 22 19:44
schestowitzYesFeb 22 19:44
MrMidlandlike Monsanto tooFeb 22 19:45
schestowitzboycottnovell investigates thisFeb 22 19:45
MrMidlandand the Aspartame scandalFeb 22 19:45
schestowitzGiving names and describing those white-collar crimesFeb 22 19:45
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Balrogyeah. It's always good to check the references though :pFeb 22 19:45
schestowitzLike the United States military, companies like Microsoft also send out people to spread disinformation on the WebFeb 22 19:45
MrMidlandits good you work hard to expose corporate criminalityFeb 22 19:45
schestowitzAnd moles to impact media coverageFeb 22 19:46
schestowitzThis is what of the more unique aspects that the site studies and publishes information abotuFeb 22 19:46
Balrogschestowitz: The problem I see with ooxml is that it's already widespreadFeb 22 19:46
Balrogit's already too widely usedFeb 22 19:47
BalrogThat's fortunately not (yet) the case with SilverlightFeb 22 19:48
MrMidlandHey Roy, I read this about Soros's latest prognosis for the economyFeb 22 19:48
MrMidlandNEW YORK (Reuters) - Renowned investor George Soros said on Friday the world financial system has effectively disintegrated, adding that there is yet no prospect of a near-term resolution to the crisis.Feb 22 19:49
MrMidland 22 19:49
schestowitzURL?Feb 22 19:49
schestowitzThanks.Feb 22 19:49
schestowitzHe recently said he made money from the crisisFeb 22 19:49
schestowitzAs far as I knowFeb 22 19:49
schestowitzI saw it in Glyn Moody's twitsFeb 22 19:49
MrMidlandhe sees no bottom for world financial collapse :(Feb 22 19:50
schestowitzFiesta time.. :-) 22 19:50
MrMidlandthe floydFeb 22 19:51
schestowitzIt's a good documentary.Feb 22 19:51
schestowitzWatch it sometimeFeb 22 19:51
MrMidlandi am watching it now mateyFeb 22 19:51
schestowitzThere's another one that's not just a collageFeb 22 19:51
schestowitzhere: 22 19:52
schestowitzNot a mashup this one but a full documentary that's independent and informative.Feb 22 19:53
MrMidlandi've heard about this experiment before didnt they stop it because the people were becoming to cruelFeb 22 19:53
Balrogso what do you think about this wide use of ooxml (docx, xlsx, pptx)??Feb 22 19:53
schestowitzMrMidland: which one? The prison?Feb 22 19:53
schestowitzI don't remember what's where in the video.Feb 22 19:54
schestowitzBalrog: those who spread it need to be informedFeb 22 19:54
schestowitzOOXML is fraudFeb 22 19:54
MrMidlandyes itws quite a well known studyFeb 22 19:54
Balrogtoo many don't careFeb 22 19:54
schestowitzBut many people don't want to know about itFeb 22 19:54
Balrog:[Feb 22 19:54
schestowitzYeaFeb 22 19:54
schestowitzYou beat me to itFeb 22 19:54
MrMidlandin denialFeb 22 19:54
schestowitzExplain about ODFFeb 22 19:54
schestowitzMrMidland: people don't care about crimeFeb 22 19:54
schestowitzThey are taught to be careless ans stupidFeb 22 19:54
schestowitzSome people carry on paying criminalsFeb 22 19:55
MrMidlandand consumerisedFeb 22 19:55
BalrogI'd prefer if people send me stuff as RTF or PDF. ODF is great, but too many people can't open it. :(Feb 22 19:55
schestowitzAnd they help those who try to regulateFeb 22 19:55
Balrogironically, even DOC is better supported than DOCX or ODFFeb 22 19:55
Balrog:(Feb 22 19:55
schestowitzDid you know that Microsoft hired a lobbying guns (or several) to write support letter on behalf of dead people?Feb 22 19:55

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