08.20.07

Gemini version available ♊︎

Has OOXML Been Defeated in Poland?

Posted in Europe, Formats, ISO, Open XML at 5:52 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Borys Musielak was quick to translate and republish some of the Polish news in English. It looks rather encouraging.

Polish Technical Committee no 171 has just voted 80% against the adoption OOXML as an ISO standard [PL]. It’s not the end of the game though, since committee 171 which was first planned to make the decision does not make the final decision anymore. Another committee 182 — will be voting on the same issue soon!

For context, see some of our recent coverage of manipulation stories. This debate is far from over whilst lobbyists and bullies are abound.

Share in other sites/networks: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Reddit
  • email

Decor ᶃ Gemini Space

Below is a Web proxy. We recommend getting a Gemini client/browser.

Black/white/grey bullet button This post is also available in Gemini over at this address (requires a Gemini client/browser to open).

Decor ✐ Cross-references

Black/white/grey bullet button Pages that cross-reference this one, if any exist, are listed below or will be listed below over time.

Decor ▢ Respond and Discuss

Black/white/grey bullet button If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

10 Comments

  1. Finland calling said,

    August 20, 2007 at 4:25 pm

    Gravatar

    August 20th update from Finland – The vote results and begin of aftermath.

    In brief: Finland doesnt say anything on OOXML. (Abstains)

    From “computer.fi”, http://www.tietokone.fi/uutta/uutinen.asp?news_id=31076
    - “Microsoft wished that Finland would say ‘approval with comments’”
    Haven’t we seen all this before, many times? Hello, here’s my so-called standard, please approve it or you will cry and approve.

    Other lies, I mean highlights from the same newsstory:
    - Microsoft’s managing director Ari Rahkonen said “the company decided already over 10 years ago to move from closed binary format into an open one. Also EU has wished for this.”
    Rahkonen told about ending with xml-based solution and progress of the process via ECMA towards ISO.
    - Microsoft was praised for finally standardizing the file format of Office. (?!!)
    - Patents in the standard were discussed. Microsoft manager Kimmo Bergius defended that their company won’t sue anyone over them and no royalties or licences would be collected.
    - Chairman Nirhamo from SFS concluded: “If the state branches would have been unanimous, we would have come to decision. Now it wasn’t so. I don’t see a chance to vote for either approve or disapprove.”

    EFFI.org liveblogged results from the meeting, here’s a quick translation:

    First comment from Microsoft: Approval. (Surprise?)
    Pekka Pere (Tietoalojen liitto/Proha): Approve. We must trust ECMA
    Pirkka Palomäki (F-Secure): No opinion. Open standards are important – no comment on quality
    Ville Salmela (Ministry of education): Not fully open as it is now. No with technical comments
    Manu Setälä (COSS): Plenty of problems. No with technical comments
    Tuomas jotain. (Sun Microsystems): Openness is splendid. ISO-standard must be independent from any manufacturer, which it ain’t now. OASIS/ODF is better. No with technical comments
    Finnish tax administration: No opinion
    Karjalainen (ministry of justice): Overlaps with ODF, No with technical comments
    Heikki Sinervuo (EK, Confederation of Finnish Industries): Open APIs are good, two standards would be too expensive, one is enough. No with technical comments
    Juha Hakala (National libraries): Openness is extremely important, preservation of digital files is obligatory. Must be compatible with other standards. No with technical comments
    National archives of Finland: Timespan is hundreds of years, a few months or an year doesn’t matter – when doing something, do it properly. No with technical comments
    Ville Oksanen (EFFI ;-): No with technical comments
    Jyrki Kasvi (The greens): Openness is important, Microsoft has historical ballast. No for fast-tracking
    Jyrki Koskinen (IBM): Plenty of problems. No with technical comments
    Timo Skytta (Nokia): There are standard organizations of various quality in the world. ISO is on the top and no reason to change this. No for fast-tracking
    Riitta jotain – City of Helsinki: Standard helps with compatibility, must trust ECMA. Approve.
    Anne Honkaranta (University of Jyväskylä): OOXML is an ok standard – a little bit worried that ISO must regain its credibility.
    Want to favor the some group of companies? If we say no, it will get out of hand. No opinion from university. Instead, from SysOpenDigia, approval
    Juha Varronen (Nordea bank): De-facto standard – pondered between no opinion and yes – approve
    TietoEnator: It will come anyway – better if its more open. Approve
    Finnish customs: We must trust the experts, 6000 pages tells something about quality. Mining of information is important. Approve
    Satama Interactive: As a representative for Microsoft ecosystem – de facto-standard. Approve
    Some researchproject from university of Kuopio: We’ve gotten familiar of this, too many problems. No with technical comments
    Ministry of trade and industry: Important matter for us as users. ISO-standardization adds to openness, fixes/changes should be possible also in fast-tracked process (?!). Approve
    Juha Turunen (Cap Gemini): Backwards compatibility is important. Approve
    Sami Köykkä (WM-Data): Important for our clients – hopefully problems can be fixed, anyway approval
    Systems Garder: A loud yes
    Ministry of finance: A question for Nirhamo – what’s the contradiction about standard, how will the process continue?
    (intermediatory comments * Microsoft says there were no perceived problems at the beginning * Nirhamos’s reply – Microsoft might _not_ want to go into that discussion or that how this got into fast-track in the first place)
    Nirhamo’s reply: No exact definition for contradiction, but if there is, they _shall_ be intervened. (He said shall, not should) Ballot will be taking place in any case and only No will matter.
    Microsoft: ECMA has promised that comments with Yes-votes will be taken notice of.
    Nirhamo: ECMA has no significance in this.
    Ministry of finance: We’re along to demand open standardization – thus approval is justificated. There are things that need to be thought about – no showstoppers. (Nirhamo took this as a No with technical comments – wow!) General MS-noise ensued ;-)
    Simo Tanner, Association of Finnish local and regional authorities: There are technical problems that should be fixed. No with technical comments
    Tieke (Finnish Information Society Development Centre): Plenty of discussion going around, no own opinion.
    Novell: Ei opinion
    FiCom (Finnish Federation for Communication and Teleinformatics): Yes (Whoops, usually they go along with EK, Confederation of Finnish Industries)
    TietoTapiola: As I haven’t read this myself at all, approve
    Jarkko Lehtinen (Miriabilis): The question isn’t about rejection but revising. There is a lot more at stake than just technical quality. It’s probable that ODF / OOXML-compatibility won’t be realized.
    Ministry of finance: Revised our opinion – Approve.

    And finally, why is Microsoft allowed to vote in a matter that benefits them – mostly only them alone?
    Would any court of law allow the accused to join the jury and vote in their own judgement?

  2. Roy Schestowitz said,

    August 20, 2007 at 5:10 pm

    Gravatar

    >> August 20th update from Finland – The vote results and begin of aftermath.

    Thanks for the report. I passed your previous two reports to people who can get involved and possibly help.

    >> here’s my so-called standard, please approve it or you will cry and approve.

    In China, for example, one might suspect or wonder if there is a form of extortion involved, e.g. “give OOXML your approval and we will give you $3 Windows”. See our previous coverage and the recent blog item from Andy Updegrove.

    >> – Microsoft’s managing director Ari Rahkonen said “the company
    >> decided already over 10 years ago to move from closed
    >> binary format into an open one. Also EU has wished for
    >> this.”

    It took them ‘only’ 10 years? For something buggy, incomplete, and rather poor?

    >> – Microsoft was praised for finally standardizing the
    >> file format of Office. (?!!)

    It depends what is meant by “standardizing”.

    >> – Patents in the standard were discussed. Microsoft manager
    >> Kimmo Bergius defended that their company won’t sue anyone
    >> over them and no royalties or licences would be collected.

    See our previous coverage on the Novell deal and Novell’s OOXML implementation. Microsoft wants patent deals for ‘peace’. Also see the recent report on patent risk in OOXML. It came from New Zealand last week.

    > – Chairman Nirhamo from SFS concluded: “If the state branches would have
    > been unanimous, we would have come to decision. Now it wasn’t so.
    > I don’t see a chance to vote for either approve or disapprove.”

    Of interest: http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=1762

    >> Pekka Pere (Tietoalojen liitto/Proha): Approve. We must trust ECMA

    We must not.

    http://boycottnovell.com/2006/12/12/a-coin-in-the-slot-standards-organization/
    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/07/09/ecma-production-line/
    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/08/ooxml-funny-dealings-and-more/
    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/07/20/standard-ecma-iso/
    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/07/24/buying-iso-approval/

    >> Pirkka Palomäki (F-Secure): No opinion. Open standards are important -
    >> no comment on quality

    “OpenXML” contains the substring “open”, but it is not open.

    >> Riitta jotain – City of Helsinki: Standard helps with compatibility, must trust ECMA. Approve.

    See response to Pekka Pere.

    >> Anne Honkaranta (University of Jyväskylä): OOXML is an ok standard
    >> – a little bit worried that ISO must regain its credibility.

    The ISO is clearly losing its credibility. See for example:

    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/06/19/iso-spam-ooxml/
    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/17/legal-action-ooxml/

    There are many more.

    >> Juha Varronen (Nordea bank): De-facto standard – pondered between
    >> no opinion and yes – approve

    De facto as a reason?

    >> Finnish customs: We must trust the experts, 6000 pages tells
    >> something about quality. Mining of information is important. Approve

    Since when can quantity qualify as an indication of quality?

    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/06/09/tax-standards-madness/

    >> Juha Turunen (Cap Gemini): Backwards compatibility is important. Approve

    It is not backward compatible and it is not consistent. See:

    http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/04/math-markup-marked-down.html

    >> TietoTapiola: As I haven’t read this myself at all, approve

    What?!?! How can one vote blindly? This is similar to GPLv3 protests from Linux kernel developers who neither read nor learned the licence. It’s a true story. Most of them just echoed the opinions of Linus instead of thinking for themselves.

    >> And finally, why is Microsoft allowed to vote in a matter that
    >> benefits them – mostly only them alone?
    >> Would any court of law allow the accused to join the jury and
    >> vote in their own judgement?

    I would be more interesting to see the affiliations of people above (other than the principal affiliation). See for example:

    http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/03/colombia-ooxml/

    One example among several (Italy and Portugal, for example, had similar stories to tell). In Portugal, IBM was virtually blocked out of the meeting.

  3. Finland calling said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    Gravatar

    Some more precise considerations from the meeting in a newscomment:

    Evening began calmly, but as discussions progressed emotions got surprisingly agitated when Microsoft representatives were trying to get recognized.
    Meeting seemed genuinely (!) important for Microsoft, since they brought in managing director Ari Rahkonen, information society relations manager (read: main lobbyist) Mikko Alkio and also Kimmo Bergius, who acts as information security leader among other things. (Mikko Alkio was Special Adviser to Prime Minister Matti Vanhanen before taking the job at Microsoft)
    Major surprise came near the end of the meeting, when chairman Nirhamo, information technology standardization expert from SFS announced taking off his “chairman’s hat” and being a private person for a while.
    After this he expressed frankly his views why OOXML should NOT be approved for fast-tracking and what kind of problems he has noticed in it.
    Nirhamo’s outburst clearly annoyed Microsoft’s representatives and they questionned the validity of chairman. His colleagues ratified his position and that he still enjoys the confidence of SFS.
    Microsoft assured the preparation won’t end with ISO standard and that ECMA will surely continue its development and fix shortcomings.
    They also claimed to be sure there’s things to fix in ODF also. (….)
    Question about 6000 pages of OOXML standard they replied explicitly: “Other members of ECMA have swollen the specifications.”

    > Thanks for the report. I passed your previous two reports to
    > people who can get involved and possibly help.

    Fine. We really need more people to get active over here in the nordic region too.
    Sweden hasn’t decided just yet and I could not find any exact information about their dates / places. Replied about Finnish farce on noooxml.org, hopefully they will review these comments and act upon responsibly.

    > De facto as a reason?

    It sure looks like that. Avoiding a fight by surrendering before it even begins.

    > What?!?! How can one vote blindly?

    I bet he wasn’t even the only one.
    Others weren’t as stupid to say it out bluntly.
    List of participants looks like some were there by invitation just to add up the numbers. Same old tricks, but it works because the news haven’t spread well enough.

  4. Roy Schestowitz said,

    August 20, 2007 at 6:17 pm

    Gravatar

    Major surprise came near the end of the meeting, when chairman Nirhamo, information technology standardization expert from SFS announced taking off his “chairman’s hat” and being a private person for a while.
    After this he expressed frankly his views why OOXML should NOT be approved for fast-tracking and what kind of problems he has noticed in it.
    Nirhamo’s outburst clearly annoyed Microsoft’s representatives and they questionned the validity of chairman.

    Sounds ad hominem.

  5. Stefan Gustavson said,

    August 21, 2007 at 2:41 am

    Gravatar

    Sweden has not voted yet, but the vote is imminent. I have no inside information on the exact date, but the ISO deadline is approaching, so the vote will probably happen this week. As I noted on noooxml.org, the hope for anything but an “abstain” result is low. 4 out of 9 committee members are either directly affiliated with Microsoft or very Microsoft-friendly. Some of the other members might also be misled by MS lobbyism to vote “yes”. I doubt we will see a qualified majority for a “yes” vote, though, and if only one or two of the MS puppets have the courage to think for themselves and realize that a conditional approval is in order, and that a conditional approval means “no with comments”, we might still have a “no” vote from Sweden.

  6. GNU/Linux said,

    August 31, 2007 at 5:45 am

    Gravatar

    Polish Technical Committee no 171 refused MSOOXML, Polish Technical Committee no 182 approved MSOOXML with comments :(

  7. GNU/Linux said,

    August 31, 2007 at 6:19 am

    Gravatar

    Here is source in Polish http://prawo.vagla.pl/node/7437

  8. Roy Schestowitz said,

    August 31, 2007 at 7:50 am

    Gravatar

    Are there are reports of inappropriate events or suspicious presence by paid Microsoft affiliates? Therein lies the key because Microsoft has not taken a wait-and-watch attitude anywhere. It tends to use its business ties to inflate panels in its favour.

  9. GNU/Linux said,

    August 31, 2007 at 10:38 am

    Gravatar

    Well no visible presence of MS like in Sweden so far but it was probably first time in history when after rejection in one Technical Committee it was moved to another Technical Committee. There was no practical reason to do that and as you remember first comitee rejected MSOOXML http://polishlinux.org/poland/poland-against-ooxml with 82% votes against it, but now second comittee approved MSOOXML without single vote against it!. Here is official announcement http://www.pkn.pl/index.php?pid=dis29500&cid=1 . And AFAIK decision made by TC no 182 is final :( My English is too weak to translate all this stuff but hopefuly someone will do it better for you, http://polishlinux.org site may be the first who announce it in English ;)

  10. Roy Schestowitz said,

    August 31, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    Gravatar

    Oh dear! So it sounds like Poland has just ‘pulled a Hungary’. This is terrible. If michuk doesn’t post something we can cite, I’ll make use of your comment. This needs to be brought to people’s attention.

DecorWhat Else is New


  1. [Meme] [Teaser] GitHub an Expensive and Dangerous Trap (Also: Misogyny Hub)

    The ongoing Microsoft GitHub exposé will give people compelling reasons to avoid GitHub, which is basically just a subsidised (at a loss) trap



  2. Norway Should Have Voted Against Benoît Battistelli's Illegal (Anti-)'Strike Regulations' at the European Patent Office

    Benoît Battistelli‘s EPO faced no real and potent opposition from Norwegian delegates, who chose to abstain from the vote on the notorious and illegal so-called ‘Strike Regulations’ (they’re just an attack on strikes, an assault on basic rights of labourers)



  3. Links 19/10/2021: Sequoia PGP LGPL 2.0+, Open RAN Adoption

    Links for the day



  4. [Meme] [Teaser] Benoît Battistelli, King of Iceland

    Later today we shall see how the current deputy of the head of the EPO‘s overseeing body was in fact likely rewarded for her complicity in Benoît Battistelli‘s abuses against EPO staff, including staff from Iceland



  5. IRC Proceedings: Monday, October 18, 2021

    IRC logs for Monday, October 18, 2021



  6. Links 19/10/2021: MyGNUHealth 1.0.5 and Ubuntu 22.04 Now Developed

    Links for the day



  7. [Meme] [Teaser] Thrown Under the Bus

    Tomorrow we shall look at Danish enablers of unlawful EPO regulations, Jesper Kongstad and Anne Rejnhold Jørgensen



  8. The World Needs to Know What Many Austrians Already Know About Rude Liar, the Notorious 'Double-Dipper'

    Today we publish many translations (from German) about the Austrian double-dipper, who already became the subject of unfavourable press coverage in his home country; he’s partly responsible for crushing fundamental rights at the EPO under Benoît Battistelli‘s regime



  9. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XVI: The Demise of the Austrian Double-Dipper

    Friedrich ‘Rude Liar’ Rödler is notorious in the eyes of EPO staff, whom he was slandering and scandalising for ages while he himself was the real scandal



  10. Links 18/10/2021: Porteus Kiosk 5.3 and Ventoy 1.0.55

    Links for the day



  11. [Meme] [Teaser] More to Life Than Patents

    Greedy sociopaths oughtn’t be put in charge of patent offices; this is what’s dooming the EPO in recent years (all they think about is money



  12. Microsoft GitHub Exposé — Part II — The Campaign Against GPL Compliance and War on Copyleft Enforcement

    Microsoft contemplated buying GitHub 7.5 years ago; the goal wasn’t to actually support “Open Source” but to crush it from the inside and that’s what Microsoft has been doing over the past 2.5 years (we have some details from the inside)



  13. Links 18/10/2021: Linux 5.15 RC6 and 7 New Stable Kernels

    Links for the day



  14. [Meme] The Austrian School of Friedrich Rude Liar

    With reference to the Austrian School, let’s consider the fact that Friedrich Rude Liar might in fact be standing to personally gain by plundering the EPO‘s staff by demonising them while helping Benoît Battistelli crush them



  15. IRC Proceedings: Sunday, October 17, 2021

    IRC logs for Sunday, October 17, 2021



  16. How (Simple Technical Steps) to Convince Yourself That DuckDuckGo is Just Spyware Connected to Microsoft, Falsely Advertised as 'Privacy'

    In recent days we published or republished some bits and pieces about what DuckDuckGo really is; the above reader dropped by to enlighten us and demonstrate just how easy it is to see what DuckDuckGo does even at the client side (with JavaScript); more people need to confront DuckDuckGo over this and warn colleagues/friends/family (there’s more here)



  17. Austria's Right-Wing Politicians Displaying Their Arrogance to EPO Examiners

    The EPO‘s current regime seems to be serving a money-hungry lobby of corrupt officials and pathological liars; tonight we focus on Austria



  18. [Meme] Friedrich Rödler's Increasingly Incomprehensible Debt Quagmire, Years Before EPO Money Was Trafficked Into the Stock Market

    As it turns out, numerous members of the Administrative Council of the EPO are abundantly corrupt and greedy; They falsely claim or selfishly pretend there’s a financial crisis and then moan about a "gap" that does not exist (unless one counts the illegal gambling, notably EPOTIF, which they approved), in turn recruiting or resorting to scabs that help improve ‘profit margins’



  19. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XV: Et Tu Felix Austria…

    Prior to the Benoît Battistelli and António Campinos regime the EPO‘s hard-working staff was slandered by a corrupt Austrian official, Mr. Rödler



  20. Links 17/10/2021: Blender 2.93.5, Microsoft Bailouts

    Links for the day



  21. Links 17/10/2021: GhostBSD 21.10.16 and Mattermost 6.0

    Links for the day



  22. IRC Proceedings: Saturday, October 16, 2021

    IRC logs for Saturday, October 16, 2021



  23. [Meme] First Illegally Banning Strikes, Then Illegally Taking Over Courts

    The vision of Team Battistelli/Campinos is a hostile takeover of the entire patent system, not just patent offices like the EPO; they’d stop at nothing to get there



  24. Portuguese Network of Enablers

    Instead of serving Portuguese people or serving thousands of EPO workers (including many who are Portuguese) the delegation from Portugal served the network of Campinos



  25. In Picture: After Billions Spent on Marketing, With Vista 11 Hype and Vapourware, No Real Gains for Windows

    The very latest figures from Web usage show that it’s hardly even a blip on the radar; Windows continues bleeding to death, not only in servers



  26. [Meme] [Teaser] Double-Dipping Friedrich Rödler

    As we shall see tomorrow night, the EPO regime was supported by a fair share of corrupt officials inside the Administrative Council



  27. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XIV: Battistelli's Iberian Facilitators - Portugal

    How illegal “Strike Regulations” and regressive ‘reforms’ at the EPO, empowering Benoît Battistelli to the detriment of the Rule of Law, were ushered in by António Campinos and by Portugal 5 years before Campinos took Battistelli’s seat (and power he had given himself)



  28. Links 16/10/2021: SparkyLinux Turns 10 and Sculpt OS 21.10

    Links for the day



  29. “Facebook Whistleblowers” Aside, It Has Been a Dying Platform for Years, and It's Mentally Perverting the Older Generation

    Guest post by Ryan, reprinted with permission



  30. [Meme] Microsoft Has Always Been About Control Over Others

    Hosting by Microsoft means subjugation or a slavery-like relationship; contrary to the current media narrative, Microsoft has long been censoring LinkedIn for China’s autocratic regime; and over at GitHub, as we shall show for months to come, there’s a war on information, a war on women, and gross violations of the law


RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

Recent Posts