10.11.08

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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 10th, 2008 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 2:03 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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schestowitz Guilty by default Oct 10 18:10
schestowitz Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer doesn’t know that Macs can run Windows : http://macdailynews.com/index.php/web… Oct 10 18:11
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ModplanMan lol pwnd Oct 10 18:14
ModplanMan what he forgets is that Apple can pull in half the revenue of MS, with a far smaller share of the pie Oct 10 18:15
ModplanMan it doesn’t matter about market share, what matters is profitability. MS forgot that a long time ago methinks. Oct 10 18:15
schestowitz Apple collects a lot in iTunes. Oct 10 18:17
schestowitz iPods too, I’d assume, unless they sell them like razors for the blades (music/DRM) Oct 10 18:18
schestowitz Microsoft has Office to collect cash, but other areas do badly or not anywhere as well. Oct 10 18:18
schestowitz BTW, BoycottNovell just made the front page of Linux Today. Oct 10 18:18
ModplanMan oooo Oct 10 18:21
ModplanMan arrr, wish intrepid would hurry and be released – need an excuse to reinstall (my current install is a mess, especially with the rather hacky thing I did of forcing an early upgrade, but then only upgrading kernel for my wireless, before reverting repos back) Oct 10 18:23
schestowitz I still have 7.04 at the office. Oct 10 18:24
schestowitz EoL later this month. Oct 10 18:25
ModplanMan you moving to 8.04, .10 or a different distro? Oct 10 18:25
schestowitz Actually my second PC at home had 7.04 as well, but it hasn’t been booted in months. I should give it away or find use for it. It’s a good box. Oct 10 18:26
schestowitz ModplanMan: I’m not on Ubuntu these days. Oct 10 18:26
ModplanMan use it as a dedicated spambox, keep requesting open source windows 7. Oct 10 18:27
ModplanMan what do you use then Oct 10 18:27
schestowitz http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/david… “I was fortunate today to attend a Microsoft security day. Yes, I know it sounds like an oxymoron..” Oct 10 18:28
schestowitz My main PC is Mandriva, secondary is Ubuntu, clusters run Fedora. Oct 10 18:29
jose the security ms piece.. i guess they periodically can writers over to oooh and aaaah at whatever muscles they are happening to be flexing that day Oct 10 18:31
schestowitz Microsoft fans (shillVPs) tired of its FUD as well: “Microsoft: Stop Complaining About VMware Price and Build Some Product!” < http://www.dabcc.com/article.aspx?id=8845 > Oct 10 18:32
schestowitz Microsoft ‘showed’ me security. Oct 10 18:32
schestowitz It held a Vista PC and a hammer up……….. [use imagination] Oct 10 18:32
jose fireworks show… sleigh of hand thing  .. Oct 10 18:32
jose who can tell what all the flashing lights do.. Oct 10 18:33
schestowitz Microsoft just invited bloggers and ‘security experts’ to have them echo PR messages about ‘security this and that’. I saw this before. Oct 10 18:33
jose or if the program behind it is stupid but is part of the choreograph Oct 10 18:33
schestowitz http://securityblog.itproportal.com/?p=514 : Microsoft : Arrogance leads to Vulnerability Oct 10 18:33
schestowitz “Chatting with the Microsoft senior sales people, I was struck by  their incredible arrogance. They know the company?s products are good,  but they have no qualms whatsoever about charging top dollar as a  result.” Oct 10 18:34
MinceR “know”? Oct 10 18:34
schestowitz “It reminds us how Microsoft used to behave when it comes to their  products’ security records. IE5 and 6 were nothing short of being  proper Swiss Cheese with loads of holes in them but hey, they had 95%  of the browser market at that time and couldn’t care less.” Oct 10 18:34
MinceR they live in a dream world Oct 10 18:34
MinceR the company’s products aren’t good Oct 10 18:34
schestowitz They removed the post. Copy here: http://web.archive.org/web/200610180452… Oct 10 18:35
jose “They do of course invest quite heavily in internal security, much more than the average organisation, and definitely at the high end of any benchmark, though they will argue that the free software makes it all seem relatively cheap. “ Oct 10 18:36
jose that was a notice to FOSS people that you will only be taken advantage of.. “surrender” and get a job is the message.. Oct 10 18:36
jose another message is that ms too will keep up with other companies with the foss creations and leverage it.. that’s a message to customers, investors, etc Oct 10 18:37
schestowitz Yes. Oct 10 18:37
jose that ms will leverage foss and not be eaten up by it Oct 10 18:37
schestowitz The elephant that called the mouse”fat” Oct 10 18:37
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schestowitz Don;t worry. Oct 10 18:38
schestowitz They embrace and ‘extend’ the GPL with ms-pl and the likes. Oct 10 18:38
schestowitz Windows-only is part of the rules. Oct 10 18:38
schestowitz Be free, as long as you’re shackled by Windows and SQL Server. Oct 10 18:38
schestowitz $$ Oct 10 18:38
ModplanMan the ms-pl on its own doesn’t seem too bad. Their other “open source” licenses are the trouble Oct 10 18:39
jose the other thing about ms holes/bugs/backdoors (all the same in practice) is that ms knows they are there more than anyone else. they are in a position to maximally take advantage .. Oct 10 18:41
jose including selling source code access to groups that may or may not do something with it Oct 10 18:42
jose no one needs to know anything Oct 10 18:42
jose as long as ms gets the money Oct 10 18:42
jose for the access Oct 10 18:42
jose to the glaring (or even subtle) buggy source Oct 10 18:42
schestowitz ModplanMan: they control the licences pretty much. Oct 10 18:43
jose -> glaringly .. -> subtly Oct 10 18:43
schestowitz Wait ’till v2 or v3. Oct 10 18:43
jose right.. they recycle the money stream Oct 10 18:43
jose rent Oct 10 18:43
schestowitz Think along the lines of MOOX or MS-Java. Oct 10 18:43
jose ? Oct 10 18:43
schestowitz It’s substitution for control Oct 10 18:44
schestowitz Like Netscape. Mimic, embrace and leverage Oct 10 18:44
schestowitz .Then fill the Web with MSOffice stuff and other rubbish only IE can rread. Give Solarid desktop users a hard time reading Web pages…. Oct 10 18:44
schestowitz Hyper-V = Novell SLES (Microsoft-taxed) only.. Oct 10 18:45
schestowitz Microsoft: “we democratize virtualisation…” (where “democratize” = EEE) Oct 10 18:45
jose oh, i thought you were talking about the bugs in their code and access to it Oct 10 18:47
schestowitz This is stupid < http://afp.google.com/articl… > for so many reason. They ask a lawyer with a history of crime about economics. Using the logic of “if someone is rich, then he must really understand the economy.” Oct 10 18:48
jose here is the thing, ms with their software on lots of places has a very valuable real estate Oct 10 18:48
schestowitz jose: licenses in this case. Microsoft ‘joining’ open source, but only based on conditions and rules it can control and change. Oct 10 18:48
jose they can sell access to bits and pieces to many groups.. Oct 10 18:48
jose groups will step up to the table all the time Oct 10 18:49
schestowitz Microsoft: “Move over RMS, we’ll take the lead in open source from here.” Oct 10 18:49
jose and ms reworks the code to keep the  people coming back to pay more money Oct 10 18:49
jose when ms writes the licenses, it’s their interpretation that matters most.. it will have loopholes Oct 10 18:50
jose they will use your code “legally” but no one else can or will dare ..so gpl-ish with a special exception for ms Oct 10 18:51
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jose those are the licenses they will write Oct 10 18:51
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jose and they will sell that “interpretation” information to key parties Oct 10 18:52
jose all of these things they control means that people will pay them for the info and access Oct 10 18:52
schestowitz MSFT now below $21 Oct 10 18:53
jose to be clear, in this last case, I am talking about the knowledge that ms’ interpretation is as a loophole so that exploiting that “gpl-ish” code is ok Oct 10 18:53
jose everyone is down Oct 10 18:53
schestowitz Novell at $4.10 Oct 10 18:54
jose and it might get really bad if this weekend doesn’t bring in something remarkable (it seems that is what might happen but i don’t know) Oct 10 18:54
schestowitz Sun is down 9% Oct 10 18:54
schestowitz Down is just 70 points above 8,000 Oct 10 18:55
schestowitz *Dow (Freudian slip) Oct 10 18:55
jose money transferring hands Oct 10 18:55
schestowitz We need to invite the Friendly Aliens from Mars to buy some share and elevate the market Oct 10 18:55
schestowitz But even *they* are not foolish enough to enter at this stage. Oct 10 18:56
schestowitz They’d rather invest in Martian rocks. Oct 10 18:56
jose well, i’ve seen (in hindsight) a stock fall and fall and fall in increasing speed and them bounce up in almost no time.. that may happen here but the water level where you bounce to could be?? Oct 10 18:57
jose we’ll see… hey, if martians had money to spend, they would have been brought down here already Oct 10 18:58
jose anyway, so it’s quite possible vmware is already in the process of being sacrificed to microsoft Oct 10 18:59
jose a transfer of talent and key ideas is likely underway Oct 10 18:59
jose the public will seemly see that microsoft “caught up” because they have all of that “innovation and brilliant folks” Oct 10 19:00
jose “will only see” Oct 10 19:01
jose there is a real problem with the monopolies.. Oct 10 19:01
jose it gives ms a huge cash advantage Oct 10 19:01
jose which gives lots of fuel to maintain the monopolies Oct 10 19:02
jose around the law since the laws seem pretty weak Oct 10 19:02
jose friendly execs running other companies Oct 10 19:02
jose lots of mula to flash before developer’s eyes Oct 10 19:02
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jose i mean they can make a ton of mistakes (xbox) Oct 10 19:03
schestowitz Microsoft sells moon land in China. Oct 10 19:03
schestowitz They sell patents. Oct 10 19:03
jose and survive because of the monopoly funds (and their management of such funds.. i do give ms credit there) Oct 10 19:03
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jose meanwhile other companies make a mistake or two and it’s over for them Oct 10 19:03
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jose sony has levers of their own and size.. as does ibm.. but its only a matter of time if ms is not tied up Oct 10 19:04
jose reigned in Oct 10 19:04
jose linux could again become a toy os Oct 10 19:04
schestowitz Again? Oct 10 19:04
schestowitz It has been very decent for a while and it never really descended. Oct 10 19:05
schestowitz Of course there was a period of catchup. Oct 10 19:05
jose at some point it was unfit for X use where today it isn’t.. that’s all i meant.. relative to the competition Oct 10 19:05
schestowitz But there’s no “again” Oct 10 19:05
jose relative to the competition is the key Oct 10 19:05
MinceR well, the market accepts toy OS-es so it doesn’t matter Oct 10 19:05
jose it was born a toy .. at least for a few days or years it was Oct 10 19:06
MinceR (see how well windows and osx sell) Oct 10 19:06
jose that’s all i meant Oct 10 19:06
schestowitz /Familar/ toys Oct 10 19:06
schestowitz /Familiar/ toys Oct 10 19:06
jose microsoft may very well find the right balance to draw in developers Oct 10 19:06
MinceR well, they might be too afraid to move from toys to tools Oct 10 19:06
jose putting the squeeze on people makes them less likely to “hobby” around Oct 10 19:07
schestowitz jose: Mirosott loses them now, not gains them Oct 10 19:07
schestowitz They flock to Mac and GNU/Linux according to some surveys. Oct 10 19:07
schestowitz Vista put them off. Oct 10 19:07
jose that’s how i hope it stays but it’s a war Oct 10 19:07
jose ok, in this case, i was talking about OS developers Oct 10 19:08
schestowitz competition, not wat. Oct 10 19:08
jose the war is with linux not with “foss” Oct 10 19:08
schestowitz *war is what Microsoft calls it:  http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u… Oct 10 19:08
jose and i take their threats seriously so i’ll use the same term ..for the sake of getting the point across. Oct 10 19:08
jose it is a war of sorts Oct 10 19:08
jose call it a sport.. i don’t care.. point is, you would be foolish not to expect ugliness and underhandedness Oct 10 19:09
jose or just clever bypasses of the law or ethics or whatever Oct 10 19:10
schestowitz This one makes no sense: http://www.mobilemag.com/cont…  Microsoft already has a platform Oct 10 19:11
schestowitz jose: yes, but that’s what cops are for. Oct 10 19:11
schestowitz I’d rather see strong policing, not egage on wars. Oct 10 19:11
jose cops have been at it for decades Oct 10 19:11
schestowitz One person in this channel attacks/retalisated against the Microsoft shills in Slashdot by creating multiple accounts. Oct 10 19:12
jose it’s ok to call the cops, but you should take your own precautions.. or we’ll be here decades from now still Oct 10 19:12
MinceR policing has already failed here Oct 10 19:12
schestowitz *retaliates Oct 10 19:12
MinceR m$ has to be beaten into submission with force. Oct 10 19:12
jose again, i am not talking about you committing anything illegal Oct 10 19:12
jose i am talking about taking them seriously Oct 10 19:12
MinceR legal means don’t seem to work in the usa Oct 10 19:12
schestowitz jose: when one needs to resorting to exposing ISO.. Oct 10 19:12
schestowitz Well, some already call this exposition a “crime” Oct 10 19:12
schestowitz You see, fighting the crooks is a “crime” now. Oct 10 19:13
jose this is getting stupid… roy, you are waging a “war” on microsoft Oct 10 19:13
schestowitz And those activists that got put on a “terrorist suspects” lists… Oct 10 19:13
MinceR no surprise in a world where the biggest crooks are called “government” Oct 10 19:13
schestowitz For ‘daring’ to question the ‘war’ in Iraq. Oct 10 19:13
schestowitz I suppose you saw that in /. Oct 10 19:13
schestowitz jose: I do no war. Oct 10 19:14
schestowitz I share information. Oct 10 19:14
schestowitz Those who do war are briubing and blackmailing people. Oct 10 19:14
schestowitz They fight the government with financial fraud too and steal from their investors. Oct 10 19:14
schestowitz I just write stuff. That’s not war. Oct 10 19:14
schestowitz MinceR: honest politician is an oxymoron. Oct 10 19:14
jose http://www.answers.com/war Oct 10 19:15
schestowitz They want to get elected. That’s where the $$ is. Oct 10 19:15
jose “A concerted effort or campaign to combat or put an end to something considered injurious: the war against acid rain.” Oct 10 19:15
schestowitz Get your compaign $$$ Oct 10 19:15
jose that describes BN Oct 10 19:15
schestowitz Naaa.. Oct 10 19:15
schestowitz I can’t do “war” on a desk Oct 10 19:15
schestowitz You can’t “fight (war) against acid war” by reading stuff. Oct 10 19:16
MinceR changing the minds of people can be a tool of modern warfare Oct 10 19:16
schestowitz manufactued consent. Oct 10 19:16
schestowitz Search the Web for the term. Oct 10 19:16
schestowitz They get educated while young to endure the abuse and think of it as a norm or privilege. Oct 10 19:17
schestowitz Microsoft’s SEC indicated in advance their current crusade in UK schools (kiddies) to have them respect Intellectual Monopolies. Oct 10 19:17
schestowitz Not to mention the ACTA crimes. Oct 10 19:17
schestowitz http://blog.wired.com/music/2008… “Wal-Mart has decided to keep the music that it sold wrapped in a layer of copyright protection playable, following a flurry of customer complaints about legally purchased music becoming unplayable.” Oct 10 19:18
schestowitz Why Microsoft will likely not acquire RIM : http://www.infosyncworld.com/ne… Oct 10 19:20
jose well, as stock prices drop ms will be able to buy a lot of things Oct 10 19:21
jose people that don’t care about monpolies of the type ms wields should Oct 10 19:21
jose good products and companies will be sacrificed to them Oct 10 19:22
jose to keep fueling their lack of innovation and maintain the monopoly levers Oct 10 19:22
jose linux commercially dominated by microsoft will kill the investments by many people (time, money, effort) in the free/no charge foss world Oct 10 19:23
jose linux evolution will be discouraged by paying people to work on other things Oct 10 19:23
jose and taking ms-pl and what not code for themselves Oct 10 19:23
jose again, who pays the bills is a very powerful motivator Oct 10 19:24
jose especially in a time of belt-tightening Oct 10 19:24
schestowitz Microsoft can;t spare much either. Oct 10 19:24
jose you can pay a dev $20/hr and have that appear like mana from heaven Oct 10 19:24
jose if they stock tanks then maybe Oct 10 19:24
schestowitz I think you’re misled on Microsoft’s finances. I can’t afford to do much now. Oct 10 19:25
schestowitz Hiring freeze and spendings freeze rumoured too. Oct 10 19:25
jose until then they are preserving their value while other companies are losing it Oct 10 19:25
jose who will work where they can’t pay you or give you much stock.. not to mention ms will buy up many companies Oct 10 19:25
schestowitz jose: they don’t preserve so much and they also issue debt to pump up the stock. Oct 10 19:25
jose i know Oct 10 19:25
jose other companies can’t do even that though Oct 10 19:26
schestowitz They toss in their savings  (from many years) to keep the stock flat… since 2006 when it almost dropped below $22. Oct 10 19:26
schestowitz jose: true. Oct 10 19:26
schestowitz Red Hat increased buybacks recently. Oct 10 19:26
jose they hold water while others disintegrate Oct 10 19:26
schestowitz IBM also buys back stick Oct 10 19:26
schestowitz That’s why they don’t seem affected. They just live on a layer of fat. Oct 10 19:26
jose i haven’t been through this before or studied much economics but that buyback thing may make the difference Oct 10 19:27
schestowitz jose: yes, but savings are depleted. Oct 10 19:27
jose if you have lots of cash today, you can “bribe” investors not to sell you short to companies like microsoft that do stay afloat Oct 10 19:27
schestowitz If the public face of a company’s valuation is the stock, then they are willing to let go the $$ Oct 10 19:27
jose roy, they get to buy valuable stuff at pennies on dollar, Oct 10 19:27
jose that helps build more fat Oct 10 19:28
jose over time you consolidate enough Oct 10 19:28
jose ms will be one of these to survive Oct 10 19:28
schestowitz jose: not only Microsoft can scoop up companies. Oct 10 19:28
schestowitz There are many other predators out there… like Oracle. Oct 10 19:28
jose yes, well, at this point, it’s good to know that all is not lost :-/ Oct 10 19:28
jose the stock price is a number where others agree to conduct exchange transactions Oct 10 19:32
jose ms only can print up msft stock Oct 10 19:32
jose so if the market prices them high, they can generate a bunch of money Oct 10 19:32
schestowitz Printing money. Oct 10 19:32
schestowitz “Tissue paper” Oct 10 19:33
schestowitz This week’s news is flooded by economics, not much technical stuff. Oct 10 19:33
jose yeah, but that tissue paper has lost value much more slowly than the tissue paper others print up Oct 10 19:33
schestowitz Priorities have shifted. Oct 10 19:33
schestowitz IBM and ORCL are up today Oct 10 19:34
jose i mistakenly thought yesterday we might be near a bottom.. of course, maybe that wasn’t a mistake, but i became pessimisstic earlier today Oct 10 19:34
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jose we’ll see Oct 10 19:35
jose lots of things can happen over the weekend Oct 10 19:35
schestowitz Quite some time for an election, huh!!?? Oct 10 19:35
schestowitz “Nat Torkington over at O’Reilly suggests that a recession will be very kind to open source as companies seek to lower their IT costs while continuing to service business needs.” Oct 10 19:47
schestowitz http://news.cnet.com/8301-1350… Oct 10 19:47
schestowitz Mandriva Linux 2009 threesome outed : http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/1… Oct 10 19:54
schestowitz http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2984 “After every collapse, under the open source principle, we start from a higher level. What looks in the proprietary world like rubble is, in an open source world, gold ore.” Oct 10 19:56
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jose check out this comment http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?… Oct 10 20:06
jose “I have a $400 semi-professional sound card collecting dust because the company that built it (Aardvark) went out of business. No more drivers for YOU! They refuse to open up the driver’s code. I suspect that’s because it just might contain some pirated IP. Either way, if they were an Open Source company I’d be making music right now.” Oct 10 20:06
jose pirated ip.. maybe Oct 10 20:06
jose however, if the company goes bust, it can get bought out for loose change Oct 10 20:06
jose and those buying up will not want the old hardware to have life Oct 10 20:06
jose that’s one possibility and hence why the drivers will not be opened up after the death of the company.. the copyrights moved on to another life Oct 10 20:07
schestowitz Yes. Oct 10 20:07
jose drivers will not –> drivers would not Oct 10 20:07
schestowitz Same with abandonware. Oct 10 20:08
schestowitz I don’t know if you followed Pandora and other consoles that are good for free retro. Oct 10 20:08
jose pandora.. waiting to see how it comes out Oct 10 20:08
jose pun not intended Oct 10 20:08
schestowitz http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&2008/… Oct 10 20:09
schestowitz I’m going through this presentation quickly. Oct 10 20:09
schestowitz He had good coverage of this (politics and economy). He’s not as ‘conformist’ of the big sites, but he’s also a critic of IP insanity.. http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&am… Oct 10 20:12
schestowitz Incidentally, Mark Shuttleworth blogged about it: http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&am… http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/220 Oct 10 20:12
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jose you need banks to give out loans (and anyone else that can grow the money supply) and make sure that it gets into the hands of those that can do something with it that others will like Oct 10 20:16
jose aggregation of wealth in the hands of a few.. like communism Oct 10 20:16
schestowitz Yes Oct 10 20:16
schestowitz Did you read Mark’s item? Oct 10 20:16
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trmanco http://www.winehq.org/?announce=1.1.6 Oct 10 20:17
trmanco finally Oct 10 20:17
jose i read over the beranger link but was actually wondering if to post some things Oct 10 20:17
schestowitz «I’m nervous. [...] My team and I are fortunate to have stepped out of many markets before the current flood of fear. [...] But what does it mean to have cash in the bank, when banks themselves are failing? What does it mean to hold dollars, when the dollar is being debased in a way that would feel familiar to the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe? These are very dangerous times, and nobody should think otherwise.» Oct 10 20:17
jose ..aggregation of wealth.. means that many good ideas die in vine or don’t even spring up Oct 10 20:17
schestowitz BN is hammed by spam this afternoon. Never seen anything like this. Oct 10 20:17
schestowitz 150 spam within hours. Oct 10 20:17
jose bill gates may love to control decisions but it’s not healthy.. like a huge government that makes lots of decisions, you can’t keep up with people’s needs/wants/abilities or even motivate them if you are stingy Oct 10 20:18
jose so you need to make sure that many types of entrepreneurs keep getting access to funds in a way where they will have incentives Oct 10 20:19
jose ditto for the entire workforce Oct 10 20:19
jose that’s my simplified take since the details are what make this difficult Oct 10 20:19
schestowitz World Govt. Oct 10 20:20
MinceR New Earth Government Oct 10 20:20
schestowitz ACTA made that seem more realistic. Oct 10 20:20
jose maybe.. surely many countries could use better laws Oct 10 20:20
schestowitz How they all met secretly to make cross-border Draconian laws. Oct 10 20:20
schestowitz Suppression of the ‘little people’./ Oct 10 20:20
jose on the other hand, you need to keep some amount of sovereignty distributed.. always Oct 10 20:21
jose what’s important is that there is adequate infrastructure and safeguards to allow grow at many levels Oct 10 20:22
jose you need money, freedoms, protections from fraud, etc Oct 10 20:22
schestowitz http://finance.yahoo.com/intlind… Oct 10 20:22
jose freedom of religion and basically to spend you time in ways you think you can be happy and productive Oct 10 20:22
jose so long as you don’t infringe on others too much Oct 10 20:22
schestowitz Ouch. Look at Asia: http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=americas Oct 10 20:23
schestowitz http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=asia Oct 10 20:23
schestowitz Europe… scary.. http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=europe Oct 10 20:23
schestowitz http://finance.yahoo.com/intlindices?e=africa Oct 10 20:24
schestowitz Tel Aviv seems to be the only one up.. 5% in fact. Oct 10 20:24
jose http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2901 Oct 10 20:25
jose “Google is the new Microsoft” Oct 10 20:25
jose oops, just realized that article is old by a month ..sorry Oct 10 20:26
schestowitz He trolls because he gets traffic that way. I saw it before. Oct 10 20:26
schestowitz Having market share and /abusing/ it are separate things. Oct 10 20:26
schestowitz Ah! Oct 10 20:26
jose it’s always a relevant question.. and the article provides some information surely Oct 10 20:27
schestowitz I thought to myself: why would he slam GOogle /again/? Oct 10 20:27
jose he slams apple more Oct 10 20:27
jose it seems he is noticing a trend.. sure that may add fuel to the fire but he doesn’t make too many accusations Oct 10 20:27
jose .. also points to the agpl Oct 10 20:27
jose google code is a bit proprietary in that sense Oct 10 20:28
jose but Oct 10 20:28
jose it’s not on everyone’s desktop Oct 10 20:28
MinceR crApple is the Little Microsoft. Oct 10 20:28
jose it can get bad if we grow to rely on google for our data Oct 10 20:28
schestowitz jose: true, they abused power before. Oct 10 20:29
schestowitz They put Google products on top of search results. Oct 10 20:29
jose who are you referring to? Oct 10 20:29
jose ok Oct 10 20:29
jose yeah, google has power because to match them you have to aggregate all that data (aside from writing the code and building the deals) Oct 10 20:30
jose ms can surpass google in terms of gaining access to data Oct 10 20:30
jose if google slips.. but ms still has their monopolies.. ex-googlers will go work for microsoft Oct 10 20:30
schestowitz OT: http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/10/shar… “Scientists have confirmed the second case of a “virgin birth” in a shark.” Oct 10 20:30
jose and bring with them the ideas Oct 10 20:30
schestowitz Now I know what they mean by “jesus fish” Oct 10 20:31
jose is that old.. or did i see the first confirmation a few months back? Oct 10 20:31
schestowitz Holy shark ghost… Oct 10 20:31
jose :-) Oct 10 20:31
schestowitz Google might become an issue. Oct 10 20:32
schestowitz It’s not one yet. Oct 10 20:32
schestowitz That’s why the Microsoft’s anti-Google lobby was moronic. Oct 10 20:32
schestowitz And GL suspects political corruption, which is probably true. Oct 10 20:32
schestowitz Because Microsoft hires political shills and WWW AstroTurfers. Oct 10 20:32
jose see, focusing on a problem of size 8 which happens to be a threat to a problem of size 25 is a bad idea Oct 10 20:34
jose spank google, but please, let’s do something about microsoft already Oct 10 20:34
schestowitz Yes. Oct 10 20:34
jose no more dumping Oct 10 20:34
jose for example Oct 10 20:34
schestowitz Dumping? Oct 10 20:34
schestowitz Oh. Oct 10 20:34
schestowitz Of products. Oct 10 20:34
jose get your mind out of the gutter Oct 10 20:34
schestowitz Well, who would stop them? McCain? Oct 10 20:34
schestowitz Microsoft is imperialistic, much like those harbouring them. Oct 10 20:35
schestowitz Just get those PCs with back doors out to more countries… for dependence, intelligence… Oct 10 20:35
jose i think a lot of sane people with modest power or influence recognize 4 more years is not a good idea and mccain is likely to repeat.. Oct 10 20:36
jose he is being run by a similar group behind bush Oct 10 20:36
jose palin had trouble memorizing her scripts.. but eventually she’ll get the hang of it Oct 10 20:36
jose anyway, obviously some people don’t trust obama and do trust bush Oct 10 20:37
jose and mccain Oct 10 20:37
jose too bad i won’t get elected cause let me tell you… Oct 10 20:37
jose :-P Oct 10 20:37
schestowitz Yes, the corps still reign Oct 10 20:38
jose self shark birth.. a natural cloning Oct 10 20:38
schestowitz What’s needed is a revolution/shakeup strong enough to turn the US into a democracy Oct 10 20:38
jose we didn’t invent cloning Oct 10 20:38
schestowitz (it’s a corporcracy now) Oct 10 20:39
jose well, a shakeup in mindset Oct 10 20:39
jose not chaos and people without a place to go or money to earn Oct 10 20:39
jose smart people Oct 10 20:39
schestowitz jose: not in FL you won’t be elected Oct 10 20:39
schestowitz B utterly, remember? Oct 10 20:40
schestowitz *butterfly Oct 10 20:40
jose hanging chads? Oct 10 20:40
schestowitz hah, Oct 10 20:40
jose i own chads Oct 10 20:40
schestowitz http://www.chads.biz/ ? Oct 10 20:41
schestowitz You lost me Oct 10 20:42
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… Oct 10 20:42
jose what did you mean by butterfly  . .the ballot style? Oct 10 20:42
schestowitz Card Hole Aggregate Debris” Oct 10 20:42
schestowitz Your voting booths in 2000 Oct 10 20:43
jose “Chads were made infamous in the highly contentious 2000 presidential election in the United States, where a majority in the U.S. Electoral College was determined in Florida by the counting of punch card ballots. “ Oct 10 20:43
schestowitz I was there at Florida’a election venue a couple of years ago Oct 10 20:43
jose noticed anything funny? Oct 10 20:43
trmanco http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n… Oct 10 20:43
schestowitz Very few news articles today Oct 10 20:45
schestowitz People assess the toll. Maybe. Oct 10 20:45
zoobab evoting leads to civil war Oct 10 20:54
jose http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20081009/ap_on… Oct 10 20:55
jose “Video game rivals Sony and Microsoft are going head-to-head in virtual worlds for their home consoles later this year. Oct 10 20:55
jose Both companies announced their services, which use graphic images that represent players called “avatars,” Thursday at the Tokyo Game Show.” Oct 10 20:55
schestowitz Big Blue world: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte… Oct 10 20:55
schestowitz They might be late to the game. There are already several ‘worlds’ Oct 10 20:56
schestowitz And not many people will received a console this Xmas Oct 10 20:56
schestowitz (except the rich kids) Oct 10 20:56
*sabayonuser_ (n=sabayonu@201-27-173-77.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 10 20:57
schestowitz MSFT’s financial report is 2 weeks awayu. Oct 10 20:57
jose we’ll see if they manage to leverage windows Oct 10 20:58
jose and business relationships Oct 10 20:58
jose their online presence can be used to help their consoles sales Oct 10 20:59
jose i gotta get some things done Oct 10 21:05
*jose has quit (“Leaving”) Oct 10 21:06
schestowitz ECT advert in the clothing of an article: Laying the GroundWork for Better Systems Monitoring Oct 10 21:08
schestowitz http://www.technewsworld.com… Oct 10 21:08
*Admiral_S (n=test@BAA3867.baa.pppool.de) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 10 21:15
Admiral_S hi Oct 10 21:15
Admiral_S anybody here? Oct 10 21:15
zoobab hi Oct 10 21:16
schestowitz Yes Oct 10 21:16
schestowitz Admiral_S: what’s up? Oct 10 21:17
Admiral_S i’m looking for a channel to cope with active directory problems. Oct 10 21:17
schestowitz zoobab: see http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/sc34/open/1106.htm  “SC 34 members are invited to nominate their experts to participate in this Working Group [WG5]. “ Oct 10 21:18
Admiral_S and this one seems to be the only one here where the “microsoft” in the topic is not related with something baad. :-) Oct 10 21:18
schestowitz That may seem so, but technical support is beyond scope…. unless it’s something else maybe? :-) Oct 10 21:19
*ReverseGTR2 (n=ReverseG@ool-44c46c4b.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 10 21:19
schestowitz http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/1… “I know that once we had this “either you’re with us or with the terrorists” mentality, but don’t you think that — just maybe — the software should allow for a little bit more nuance?” Oct 10 21:20
Admiral_S of course, but i hoped, anyone of you might know a channel or at least another server to try. Oct 10 21:20
Admiral_S nevertheless, thanks. Oct 10 21:20
schestowitz np Oct 10 21:20
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: did you read about the World Bank’s servers being hacked? Oct 10 21:21
schestowitz Yes Oct 10 21:21
schestowitz There is more. Oct 10 21:22
schestowitz Bank turmoil fuels phishing boom: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7663055.stm Oct 10 21:22
*Admiral_S has quit () Oct 10 21:22
schestowitz http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,435681,00.html same with the Pentagon Oct 10 21:23
schestowitz It’s interesting that they kept it under the wraps until _now_ Oct 10 21:23
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: thats no surprise, I got a “notice” from “my bank” that there were inconsistencies with my online banking account so I need to “Click Here” to re-enter it into their database Oct 10 21:23
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: however when I right clicked to get the source it was a subnet address of a UK Supermarket website. Oct 10 21:24
schestowitz ReverseGTR2: I was more concerned that my bank /did/ send me some genuine mail Oct 10 21:24
schestowitz They absolutely must make it a policy never to send /any/ mail because it produces expectation. Oct 10 21:24
schestowitz ReverseGTR2: they crack servers, then put the phishing trp in them. Oct 10 21:24
schestowitz That’s why standard domain checkers don’t work (Netcraft site credibility and all). Oct 10 21:25
schestowitz I take the position that had it not been for 320 million zombie PCs out there, the reach of SPAM/phishing would have declined Oct 10 21:25
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: did you also read about 1,200 IT people who attended a Verizon telemarketing conference on security and all their email addresses were given away to spammers Oct 10 21:26
schestowitz Also in the BBC today: ‘Spam attack’ halts Virgin e-mail ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology… ) Oct 10 21:26
schestowitz Months ago: Virgin Media taps Microsoft in lengthy email outage ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/18/virgin_… ) Oct 10 21:26
ReverseGTR2 ahh, here it is: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/33767 Oct 10 21:26
schestowitz They foolishly use Microsoft for mail and they can’t cope with 150 billion SPAM per day. Oct 10 21:27
schestowitz Cybercrime will get worse in a recession. Oct 10 21:27
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: all crime gets worse in a recession Oct 10 21:28
schestowitz Yes, I didn’t deny that. Oct 10 21:28
schestowitz Katrina comes to mind. Oct 10 21:28
schestowitz Heh.  Linux-Kongress: Linux Foundation Declares OS X a Luxury Jail : http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/ne… Oct 10 21:29
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: only dirty toilets for those that which to not only clean but also lift the toilet to see how it works as well as renovate the walls. Oct 10 21:30
MinceR where’s the luxury? Oct 10 21:30
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ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: Linux is great and all but these people must not get too pompous or else they will bend to any opportunity for a short gain and some spot in the limelight Oct 10 21:31
schestowitz MinceR: I thought the same thing. Oct 10 21:31
schestowitz ReverseGTR2: the “pompous” this analogy came from is Jim Zemlin. Oct 10 21:32
schestowitz That’s the same guy who slammed OpenSolaris some weeks ago. He later sort of almost regretted that, but the damage had been done. Oct 10 21:32
schestowitz http://www.itwire.com/content/view/20898/1090/ http://www.itwire.com/content/view/17775/1090/ Oct 10 21:33
ReverseGTR2 schestowtiz: true I also love how he said developers “outside the US” implying that Americans are some how  inclined to be patriotic to M$ or worse, stupid Oct 10 21:33
schestowitz That’s what happens when you put marketing people (Zemlin and McPherson) ‘in charge’ of “Linux” Oct 10 21:34
schestowitz Ask zoobab Oct 10 21:34
schestowitz He says that LF is too American. Oct 10 21:34
MinceR interesting idea of “patriotism” Oct 10 21:34
schestowitz Same for OIn. Oct 10 21:34
schestowitz “Outside the US”… where was Linus invented and developed again? Oct 10 21:35
schestowitz Tso, who you could argue was a ‘foreigner’, was the first American developer of Linux. Oct 10 21:35
*sabayonuser_ (n=sabayonu@201-27-173-77.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 10 21:36
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: true, but open source shouldn’t become a political issue Oct 10 21:37
schestowitz ITWire has just removes article rating… yesterday, I think. Oct 10 21:37
schestowitz Hey, sabayonuser_ Oct 10 21:37
*neighborlee has quit (Connection timed out) Oct 10 21:38
schestowitz ReverseGTR2: it isn’t. The focus on engineering in Free software (welll, in Linux at least) is intended to counter the politicization and bring power back to engineers. Oct 10 21:38
schestowitz Remember that Microsoft is controlled by a lawyer/politician (Gates family) and a marketing person/banker (Ballmer family). Allen, the engineer, left the building. Oct 10 21:39
schestowitz Woz isn’t in Apple,  either. He criticised Apple a lot. Oct 10 21:39
schestowitz In Google, Schmidt, Brin and Page are all engineers/scientists, in contrast. Oct 10 21:40
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ReverseGTR2 schestowtiz: but it is the lawyers in Google that ultimately hammer out the TOSs that have successfully made Google able to take source code from open source and put it in relatively closed apps Oct 10 21:43
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: or at least lawyers in conjunction with engineers Oct 10 21:43
schestowitz Yes Oct 10 21:47
schestowitz That too is an issue. Oct 10 21:47
schestowitz At this very moment I try to get a script working… one that Google must dislike. Oct 10 21:48
schestowitz picasaweb-download Oct 10 21:48
schestowitz It runs through entire albums and downloads them. Oct 10 21:48
schestowitz I want to make copies of my sister’s albums without passing huge E-mails. Oct 10 21:48
schestowitz http://www.blue-gnu.biz/content/new_ba… Oct 10 21:48
schestowitz They may have broken the script at their end, just like they do with APIs and YouTube grabbers. Oct 10 21:49
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: Google is in essence becoming the defacto Cloud computing company Oct 10 21:56
schestowitz What is cloud? Oct 10 21:57
zoobab a pile of servers Oct 10 21:57
schestowitz Anyway, the script seems broken Oct 10 21:57
schestowitz So it’s a form. Oct 10 21:58
schestowitz *farm Oct 10 21:58
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: the concept of Cloud computing is moving the storage of application or the critical functions of them onto a remote server. Oct 10 21:58
schestowitz Yes, like a NAS Oct 10 21:59
schestowitz With a Web GUI Oct 10 21:59
schestowitz Show me a ‘cloud’. I don’t trust my data in damp weather and rain. :-) Oct 10 22:00
*PetoKraus (n=Peter@cpc4-broo2-0-0-cust1012.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 10 22:01
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: exactly, but the problem arises that then it takes away controll from indivisual users. Oct 10 22:01
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: or it could Oct 10 22:01
schestowitz The Web GUI changes. Oct 10 22:02
*sabayonuser_ has quit (Connection timed out) Oct 10 22:03
schestowitz For instance, Google may decide to take away features, themes… worse yet… change the prices, licences, etc. You’re back where you started with something like Microsoft Office. Oct 10 22:03
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: true, but beyond the visual anyone who wants access to modifying software will have problems or end up disconnecting it the functions that made it appealing in the first place Oct 10 22:03
schestowitz WordPress is different. Oct 10 22:03
schestowitz They host blogs, but you can take the code and put it on your box, messing about with the code there. Oct 10 22:03
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: it also permits companies to enforce whatever agreements they see fit or are within legal perameters Oct 10 22:03
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: then that is a good example of what a “Cloud” app can be. Oct 10 22:04
schestowitz That’s the thing. Oct 10 22:04
schestowitz But go ahead and explain this to more people, lie RMS recently did: “”it is still proprietary and, as such, unethical.”  http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?lt… Oct 10 22:05
schestowitz Did Google /buy/ the Picasa Web-side software or develop it in-house? Oct 10 22:06
ReverseGTR2 schestowitz: I have not read much if anything at all on it so to be honest, I don’t know. Oct 10 22:09
schestowitz “Mandriva is the first to release a new version this season among the others like Ubuntu, Fedora and Opensuse. Being early to release a cutting edge version with KDE 4, Mandriva has done a really impressive job. In this way they can win a lot of new users who are waiting for an upgrade. I seriously doubt if there will be better implementation of KDE 4 in the near future.” Oct 10 22:15
schestowitz Good reviews for Mand2009 so far. http://linuxexperimentation.blogspot.com/… Oct 10 22:16
trmanco http://www.dailyartisan.com/news/linu… Oct 10 22:28
schestowitz Thankls. Oct 10 22:29
*cj is now known as da_man Oct 10 22:39
*da_man is now known as cj Oct 10 22:39
zoobab http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/infosphere/me… Oct 10 22:57
zoobab good article about swpats Oct 10 22:58
*trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”) Oct 10 23:02
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Oct 10 23:02
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