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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 31st, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:13 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


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DaemonFC or they’ll pirate it or use Linux Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Won’t let them survice Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Win+office are the only profitable products for MS Mar 31 12:59
DaemonFC university students are living on a shoestring Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Including server Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Dumping there is suicide if done for much longer Mar 31 12:59
DaemonFC and $400 for Windows+Office is out of the question Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Wait until you see Microsoft’s results at the end of April Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Quarterly results Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Will be ugly, unless they lowered expectations already Mar 31 12:59
oiaohm they are already dropping departments. Mar 31 12:59
schestowitz Yes Mar 31 13:00
schestowitz Exactly Mar 31 13:00
oiaohm How long before they have no execess departments to drop. Mar 31 13:00
qdev i don’t get it, are m$’s funds rising or falling? Mar 31 13:00
schestowitz The core (bread and buter) is win+MSO Mar 31 13:00
oiaohm MS funds are falling fast. Mar 31 13:00
schestowitz But Linux is eating their lunch Mar 31 13:00
schestowitz With Oracle, IBM, Google.. Mar 31 13:00
qdev for how long time already, oiaohm? Mar 31 13:00
DaemonFC most of their stock price damage isn’t cause of things that really are happening Mar 31 13:00
DaemonFC it’s because of the asinine stock market Mar 31 13:00
schestowitz And they still lose billions online because they MUST Mar 31 13:00
DaemonFC and our insane speculative stock pricing Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz Not moving MSO to Web-based is out of the question Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz They’ll try to use OOXML to pressure people in that direction Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz Now they just mock Google Apps Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz because the MS solution is immature Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz They still work on it Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz BUT Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz They also don’t know how to monetise it Mar 31 13:01
DaemonFC they also tried to clone Myspace and failed Mar 31 13:01
schestowitz Which is a bigger problem Mar 31 13:01
DaemonFC then they tried to clone Gmail and failed Mar 31 13:01
DaemonFC and Google Search Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz And AdCentre Analytics is dead Mar 31 13:02
DaemonFC and failed Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz Microsoft Ad business is dying too Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz That’s the whole substance of an online business Mar 31 13:02
oiaohm MS is basically death spirling. Mar 31 13:02
qdev nice to hear Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz They lose to Google. Mar 31 13:02
DaemonFC they even had a “Use our search and get free points towards free stuff” Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz They can’t use AdSense at Microsoft Mar 31 13:02
oiaohm The down turn causes companies to grow a brain to live. Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz That would be hilarious.. Mar 31 13:02
DaemonFC and it didn’t help them Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz Microsoft relying on Google/Linux for ad revenue Mar 31 13:02
qdev i dream m$ lose influence on those who sell computers Mar 31 13:02
qdev and especially at education systems of plenty of countries Mar 31 13:02
oiaohm That is still a while off qdev Mar 31 13:02
schestowitz DaemonFC: that was “search bribery” Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz Failed too Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz The guy who conceived it quit Microsoft Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz Last month, IIRC Mar 31 13:03
oiaohm Dumping is holding education with MS. Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz Maybe 2 months ago Mar 31 13:03
oiaohm Always has. Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz MSN has a big exodus Mar 31 13:03
DaemonFC Hmmm, he should have committed seppuku Mar 31 13:03
DaemonFC lol Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz oiaohm: OEMs too Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz But not for long Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz Dell broke loose Mar 31 13:03
schestowitz Selling 1 in 3 sub-notebooks with Ubuntu now Mar 31 13:04
oiaohm The software bubble is bursting. Mar 31 13:04
oiaohm MS is the one that is going to take the largest hit. Mar 31 13:04
oiaohm Think about it for how many years has the price of windows just gone up not down. Mar 31 13:05
qdev it’s their major flaw Mar 31 13:06
qdev they didn’t make it cheaper for those who just won’t spend that money to buy some yet another shitty windows Mar 31 13:07
schestowitz They did actually Mar 31 13:07
schestowitz Dynamic pricing Mar 31 13:07
oiaohm They have got themselves dependant on the revenue stream. Mar 31 13:07
schestowitz Partly by permitting counterfeiting in most of the world Mar 31 13:08
schestowitz Binary pricing Mar 31 13:08
schestowitz Free or expensive Mar 31 13:08
schestowitz Free in the Philippines, pricey in the UK and Holland Mar 31 13:08
schestowitz Their prices are not consistent Mar 31 13:08
qdev not in russia actually, here windows costs the same as in usa Mar 31 13:08
schestowitz They charge as much as possible, which monopoly abuse permits Mar 31 13:08
schestowitz They got sued for ir, AFAIK Mar 31 13:08
qdev but salaries are several times less Mar 31 13:08
schestowitz qdev: yes, but they don’t crack down much Mar 31 13:09
schestowitz Remember the teacher incident? Mar 31 13:09
qdev of course, i read what she wrote Mar 31 13:09
schestowitz When Gurbachov stepped in? Mar 31 13:09
schestowitz It was a guy.. Mar 31 13:09
schestowitz In the Perm region Mar 31 13:09
qdev it was a guy to kill soviet union actually Mar 31 13:09
schestowitz Russia is making its own Red Hat-like (Fedora IIRC) distro now Mar 31 13:09
qdev i know, russian fedora Mar 31 13:10
schestowitz They also have ALT Linux, which is derived from Mandriva like PCLOS Mar 31 13:10
qdev yup Mar 31 13:10
schestowitz They put it on servers Mar 31 13:10
qdev not too much Mar 31 13:10
schestowitz Well, gradually. Mar 31 13:10
DaemonFC I just use Ubuntu Mar 31 13:10
qdev almost nobody here check what kind of software you use Mar 31 13:10
DaemonFC I hate RPM distros Mar 31 13:10
schestowitz The Russian governmenrt had Mandriva servers in places Mar 31 13:10
schestowitz Ubuntu doesn’t seem big in Russia Mar 31 13:10
DaemonFC they may put together a nice distro, but there really are no good RPM front ends Mar 31 13:10
schestowitz Mandriva and Debian are big in Brazil Mar 31 13:11
schestowitz Cuba ->> Sabayon/Gentoo Mar 31 13:11
qdev in france most likely too Mar 31 13:11
schestowitz France -> Ubuntu Mar 31 13:11
schestowitz Weird.. Mar 31 13:11
schestowitz Some government depts use Mandriva Mar 31 13:11
DaemonFC I compile my own kernels, Debian has make-kpkg which lets me build kernels *and* be a lazy bastard Mar 31 13:11
DaemonFC Ubuntu inherits this Mar 31 13:11
DaemonFC B-) Mar 31 13:11
qdev nice Mar 31 13:12
qdev i wouldn’t myself build a kernel for mandriva Mar 31 13:12
qdev even though i know how to build kernels Mar 31 13:12
DaemonFC so right now I am using yesterday’s snapshot of the Linus Torvalds kernel tree Mar 31 13:12
DaemonFC hehe Mar 31 13:12
qdev yeah, in russia it’s almost everywhere windows Mar 31 13:13
qdev especially kids that play pirated games on pirated windows Mar 31 13:13
qdev and watch pirated films :)) Mar 31 13:13
DaemonFC hmmm Mar 31 13:13
DaemonFC I only do two of those Mar 31 13:13
DaemonFC :) Mar 31 13:14
qdev and plenty of torrenting Mar 31 13:14
DaemonFC It’s not that I can’t steal Windows Mar 31 13:14
qdev so russia is not that kind of place where linux blooms Mar 31 13:14
DaemonFC it’s that it’s not worth the blank DVD Mar 31 13:14
DaemonFC :)\ Mar 31 13:14
qdev with linux you almost have no job here Mar 31 13:15
DaemonFC meh, Microsoft would rather they all steal it than use Linux Mar 31 13:15
DaemonFC then if they ever get to a point where they do buy something Mar 31 13:15
qdev that’s why i use windows at home and linux at work :)) Mar 31 13:15
DaemonFC they know Windows Mar 31 13:15
DaemonFC and depend on it Mar 31 13:15
oiaohm With Linux I have a job recovering MS fuckups. Mar 31 13:15
oiaohm Linux ntfs driver reads majorally damaged ntfs partitions that windows ntfs driver does not. Mar 31 13:16
qdev lol Mar 31 13:16
DaemonFC oh thats funny Mar 31 13:16
oiaohm And true Mar 31 13:16
DaemonFC they should offer to license NTFS-3g to Microsoft Mar 31 13:16
DaemonFC ;) Mar 31 13:16
oiaohm NTFS-3g is the one to write. Mar 31 13:17
oiaohm I mean the standard read only ntfs driver in the kernel itself out does MS. Mar 31 13:17
DaemonFC my kernels only support XFS Mar 31 13:17
qdev m$ should buy the right just to be able to say that with linux you can fix their fuckups D Mar 31 13:17
qdev XD Mar 31 13:17
oiaohm NTFS-3g kicks it tail around the park. Mar 31 13:17
DaemonFC I don’t have any Ext2/3/4, Reiser, or JFS partitions Mar 31 13:18
DaemonFC why mess around building modules? :P Mar 31 13:18
qdev which one do you use? Mar 31 13:18
DaemonFC I use XFS Mar 31 13:18
oiaohm I will be going up to ext4 when it stablises. Mar 31 13:18
DaemonFC and I build the driver into the kernel Mar 31 13:18
DaemonFC not as a module Mar 31 13:18
qdev of course Mar 31 13:18
qdev there’s no need to be using it as module then Mar 31 13:18
DaemonFC Ubuntu builds it as a module Mar 31 13:18
DaemonFC and builds Ext2/3/4 into the kernel Mar 31 13:18
DaemonFC :P Mar 31 13:18
oiaohm Any plans to change over to btrfs in future DaemonFC Mar 31 13:19
DaemonFC I tried BtrFS Mar 31 13:19
DaemonFC not real impressed at this point Mar 31 13:19
DaemonFC it’s really really slow Mar 31 13:19
oiaohm Still a lot of development work to do. Mar 31 13:19
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oiaohm nilfs I guess tried as well DaemonFC Mar 31 13:19
DaemonFC there we go Mar 31 13:20
qdev gonna check xfs when mandriva 2009.1 is released Mar 31 13:20
DaemonFC Mandriva can do everything on XFS Mar 31 13:20
DaemonFC some distros set grub to where it can’t boot XFS Mar 31 13:21
qdev i just have it already installed with ext3 here Mar 31 13:21
DaemonFC (Fedora) Mar 31 13:21
oiaohm nilfs is a check point/snapshotting filesystem. Mar 31 13:21
oiaohm I find it useful for configuration files. Mar 31 13:21
qdev oops, xfs doesn’t tolerate hangs Mar 31 13:22
DaemonFC XFS is fast and has insanely huge limits that will never be reached by any hard drive as far as volume size Mar 31 13:22
DaemonFC (18 million TB) Mar 31 13:22
DaemonFC XFS is fine Mar 31 13:22
DaemonFC there’s a lot of FUD flying around though Mar 31 13:23
oiaohm Never say Never. Mar 31 13:23
oiaohm 18 million TB is theory possiable. Mar 31 13:23
DaemonFC Ext4′s data loss problems are really stupidity on the part of GNOME and KDE Mar 31 13:23
oiaohm Ext4 data loss problem has a mirror in XFS Mar 31 13:23
DaemonFC it’s running into the same shitty applications that cause XFS problems Mar 31 13:24
DaemonFC such as Firefox Mar 31 13:24
DaemonFC B-) Mar 31 13:24
oiaohm Ext4 will have patches  in 2.6.30 that make it resistant to it. Mar 31 13:24
DaemonFC and like how GNOME and KDE store settings in a shitload of tiny files Mar 31 13:24
DaemonFC that are constantly being updated Mar 31 13:24
DaemonFC no Mar 31 13:24
DaemonFC they are crippling Ext4 Mar 31 13:24
DaemonFC to cope with bad apps Mar 31 13:25
DaemonFC like Firefox Mar 31 13:25
oiaohm Have you benched it. Mar 31 13:25
DaemonFC :) Mar 31 13:25
oiaohm Supprising its slightly faster. Mar 31 13:25
DaemonFC slightly? Mar 31 13:25
DaemonFC it shouldn’t be any surprise that it’s faster over a fs that is pure crap Mar 31 13:25
DaemonFC (Ext3) Mar 31 13:25
oiaohm Ext 4 patches to prevent the glitch caused by bad software is slightly faster than the mode without. Mar 31 13:26
DaemonFC Ext4 is what Ext3 should have been in 2001 Mar 31 13:26
DaemonFC I prefer to try to avoid bad software Mar 31 13:26
DaemonFC such as Firefox Mar 31 13:26
DaemonFC Firefox is as bad as they come Mar 31 13:26
DaemonFC it uses more RAM than the operating system after a couple hours browsing Mar 31 13:27
oiaohm Crome is doing a good job of putting pressure on it. Mar 31 13:27
DaemonFC cause the devs are isiots and sub standard programmers Mar 31 13:27
DaemonFC using C++ and XUL Mar 31 13:27
DaemonFC *idiots Mar 31 13:27
qdev what’s xul Mar 31 13:27
DaemonFC XML-based User interface Language Mar 31 13:27
DaemonFC the browser renders the interface Mar 31 13:28
qdev just read it in wiki Mar 31 13:28
DaemonFC isntead of using OS-native UI widgets Mar 31 13:28
DaemonFC it’s incredibly slow/buggy/resource wasteful Mar 31 13:28
DaemonFC but makes it somewhat easier to port Mar 31 13:28
qdev isn’t xml resource wasteful by nature Mar 31 13:28
DaemonFC well, Gecko ain’t all that great Mar 31 13:29
DaemonFC but… Mar 31 13:29
DaemonFC the Firefox browser makes it worse Mar 31 13:29
DaemonFC you can switch to Epiphany and get a browser that’s 100 times better, even using Gecko Mar 31 13:29
DaemonFC :) Mar 31 13:29
DaemonFC I can’t wait til they switch to Webkit by default Mar 31 13:29
qdev ‘ve only got ff, o and konq here in windows Mar 31 13:30
DaemonFC I don’t like Mozilla, I don’t like Firefox Mar 31 13:30
DaemonFC unfortunately Gecko is really the only credible rendering engine on Linux Mar 31 13:31
qdev it’s rather flexible and useful Mar 31 13:31
DaemonFC I just use Epiphany Mar 31 13:31
ToreadorVampire Mmm, MinceR likes Opera – although he has constant troubles with Google apps (which for some reason when I check in an-identical-Opera-build-on-an-identical-operating-system work just fine for me) Mar 31 13:34
MinceR i don’t like any browsers Mar 31 13:34
ToreadorVampire But my main browser of choice is FF Mar 31 13:34
MinceR but i use opera and ff Mar 31 13:34
MinceR mostly ff Mar 31 13:34
ToreadorVampire Oh, I thought it was the other way around … Mar 31 13:34
MinceR though i’ve moved several of my stuff to browser-independent apps Mar 31 13:34
MinceR oops Mar 31 13:34
MinceR mostly opera, i mean Mar 31 13:35
MinceR :) Mar 31 13:35
ToreadorVampire Right Mar 31 13:35
MinceR i guess i’ll be done once i set up privoxy Mar 31 13:35
ToreadorVampire For me – FF plugins are too valuable to give up Mar 31 13:35
MinceR and then i can switch browsers in a relatively painless way Mar 31 13:35
MinceR my searches are in Web Command Line, my bookmarks are in SiteBar Mar 31 13:35
MinceR Privoxy will take care of referer blocking and ad blocking Mar 31 13:36
MinceR the rest is up to the browsers and their addons. Mar 31 13:36
DaemonFC Opera is proprietary, their developers are jerks, it can’t do simple tasks relating to Linux by default Mar 31 13:36
DaemonFC (opening folders for example) Mar 31 13:36
DaemonFC and it’s written in QT Mar 31 13:36
DaemonFC :P Mar 31 13:37
MinceR ff lacks several features too, though it got better Mar 31 13:37
DaemonFC if I wanted black box software Mar 31 13:37
MinceR i’m planning to try switching to ff3 once i upgrade to intrepid Mar 31 13:37
DaemonFC I’d go buy Vista Mar 31 13:37
DaemonFC and have a whole system full of it Mar 31 13:37
MinceR and i’ll see if the addons i need will instabilize it or not Mar 31 13:37
MinceR or slow it down Mar 31 13:37
MinceR and if i can fix the 5-click way through certificate warnings Mar 31 13:37
MinceR and there are no problems with Qt, afak Mar 31 13:38
MinceR s/fak/faik/ Mar 31 13:38
DaemonFC I never use proprietary software when I can avoid it Mar 31 13:38
MinceR in fact, Qt seems to be less buggy than GTK+ Mar 31 13:38
DaemonFC heh Mar 31 13:38
DaemonFC sure Mar 31 13:38
DaemonFC KDE 4 proved that ;) Mar 31 13:38
DaemonFC KDE 4 brought the stability of Windows 98 to Linux Mar 31 13:38
MinceR quit making stuff up already Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC KDE 4 freezes and crashes a lot Mar 31 13:39
oiaohm KDE 4 is a major shake up. Mar 31 13:39
MinceR which kde4? Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC who cares? Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC it doesn’t work Mar 31 13:39
MinceR 4.0, 4.1, 4.2? Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC that’s why I won’t use it Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC all Mar 31 13:39
oiaohm Supprising 4.2 kde works ok. Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC KDE 4.2.1 still freezes Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC still crashes Mar 31 13:39
DaemonFC still incomplete Mar 31 13:40
oiaohm I guess you run with compiziting mode on. Mar 31 13:40
DaemonFC oh god forbid I want some features Mar 31 13:40
DaemonFC B-) Mar 31 13:40
MinceR ok, now we’re all waiting for that perfect DE you have in mind that has more features than kde4.2 and is more stable Mar 31 13:40
oiaohm IE DRI 1 death wish. Mar 31 13:40
DaemonFC or ask anything at all from it Mar 31 13:40
DaemonFC I’ll use anything but KDE Mar 31 13:40
oiaohm Don’t you remember 2.6.0 Mar 31 13:40
oiaohm of the Linux kernel. Mar 31 13:41
DaemonFC I’d use Window Maker before KDE Mar 31 13:41
DaemonFC seriously Mar 31 13:41
oiaohm Lot of features were missing from it when compared to 2.4.x line. Mar 31 13:41
DaemonFC I used to use KDE Mar 31 13:41
oiaohm Its normal for major overhauls to be temp missing features. Mar 31 13:41
oiaohm And temp have stablity problems. Mar 31 13:41
DaemonFC I left after seeing what a disaster KDE 4 was Mar 31 13:41
MinceR DaemonFC: ok, now it’s obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about Mar 31 13:41
DaemonFC KDE 4.x is a total unmitigated screw up Mar 31 13:42
DaemonFC and there’s no whitewashing that Mar 31 13:42
oiaohm You really lack history. Mar 31 13:42
MinceR no, it’s a total unmitigated redesign Mar 31 13:42
DaemonFC and they suck Mar 31 13:42
oiaohm You  forget the screams around all major alterations DaemonFC Mar 31 13:42
DaemonFC it’s a 2nd rate Vista knock off Mar 31 13:42
MinceR and they did things from the start nobody else did at the time Mar 31 13:42
DaemonFC and about as stable Mar 31 13:42
MinceR for example, a wm that can work with or without aiglx Mar 31 13:43
MinceR compiz++ might be able to do that _now_ Mar 31 13:43
DaemonFC working involves not crashing Mar 31 13:43
DaemonFC or garbling the display Mar 31 13:43
DaemonFC that kind of working, right? Mar 31 13:43
MinceR exactly that kind of working Mar 31 13:43
oiaohm Ok you are talking about compiziting mode and KDE is not the cause of the problem DaemonFC Mar 31 13:43
DaemonFC well, that would be GNOME and Compiz then Mar 31 13:43
DaemonFC not KDE Mar 31 13:43
MinceR except for compiz not being able to do that Mar 31 13:43
DaemonFC Compiz works Mar 31 13:44
MinceR because it doesn’t work at all without aiglx Mar 31 13:44
DaemonFC Kwin does not Mar 31 13:44
oiaohm KDE wm has compiz screen rendering feature built in. Mar 31 13:44
oiaohm Can be turned on and off DaemonFC Mar 31 13:44
MinceR so you can’t switch it on and off as needed, except by starting another wm and maintaining setup for 2 wm-s Mar 31 13:44
oiaohm So you did not find the off switch to it. Mar 31 13:44
DaemonFC that’s like saying your giraffe plays the harmonica Mar 31 13:44
DaemonFC uhhm, ok, cool Mar 31 13:44
MinceR no, actually it’s relevant to the use of the desktop Mar 31 13:44
MinceR also, you may want to be less condescending if you expect people to read what you type _at all_ Mar 31 13:44
oiaohm DRI 2 is need to fix the crash issue. cause by the screen rendering feature on. Mar 31 13:44
qdev i know a guy that uses only console in linux Mar 31 13:45
oiaohm KDE 4 was designed to work with DRI 2 Mar 31 13:45
DaemonFC I’ve used Linux since 1998 Mar 31 13:45
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oiaohm DRI2 was late Mar 31 13:45
DaemonFC and KDE 4 is by far, I mean damn Mar 31 13:45
DaemonFC I thought it was a joke Mar 31 13:45
oiaohm With DRI 2 compisiting gives far higher performance. Mar 31 13:45
DaemonFC but then they actually released it Mar 31 13:45
oiaohm Than DRI 1 compadible rendering methods. Mar 31 13:45
DaemonFC can’t even support audio CDs properly Mar 31 13:46
DaemonFC let alone do anything else Mar 31 13:46
oiaohm OK you are taking about the bug that disappears in the KDE 4.3 patch set. Mar 31 13:46
DaemonFC KDE will drive you insane if you absolutely try to make it do anything useful Mar 31 13:47
MinceR and we all know that the gui is about playing audio cd-s and nothing else Mar 31 13:47
DaemonFC it’s user abuse Mar 31 13:47
DaemonFC no, but it can’t even do that Mar 31 13:47
MinceR they rushed 4.0 because they wanted the application devs to port the apps to kde4 Mar 31 13:47
DaemonFC they have messed it up that bad Mar 31 13:47
oiaohm Linux kernel 2.6.0 Mar 31 13:47
DaemonFC 4.2.1 is bad Mar 31 13:47
DaemonFC over a year later Mar 31 13:47
oiaohm It ate data. Mar 31 13:47
DaemonFC 4.2.1 causes system crashes Mar 31 13:47
MinceR i suspect you haven’t even tried it Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC which can eat data Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm How. Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm 2.6.0 kernel DaemonFC Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC oh, I tried 4.2.1 Mar 31 13:48
qdev are there third-party firewalls for win7? Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC it hasn’t improved Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm Note a WM cannot crash system. Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm Only drivers can. Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC yeah it can Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC it freezes X Mar 31 13:48
MinceR it can if there’s a bug in x Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC then you can’t restart X Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC then your system is hung Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm Nop you are refering to X11 defect Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC no Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm That I talked abotu before. Mar 31 13:48
DaemonFC it’s a KDE problem Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm DRI 1 Mar 31 13:48
qdev are third-party firewalls in vista bypassed? Mar 31 13:48
oiaohm ITs DRI 1 Mar 31 13:49
DaemonFC I don’t even use DRI on this system Mar 31 13:49
DaemonFC it’s done it on every kind of video card with every driver Mar 31 13:49
DaemonFC explain that Mar 31 13:49
oiaohm What video card driver are using it. Mar 31 13:49
oiaohm ALL OF THEM USE IT WITH X11 Mar 31 13:49
oiaohm Including NVIDIA in places. Mar 31 13:49
oiaohm Core defect at the hart of X11 servers. Mar 31 13:50
oiaohm Open source X11 servers. Mar 31 13:50
DaemonFC Geforce 9500 GT, Geforce 7650 GS, Geforce 7300 LE. Intel 3100 integrated, Radeom Xpress 200m, Radeon HD 2400………………………….. Mar 31 13:50
DaemonFC and the Nvidia driver does not use DRI Mar 31 13:50
oiaohm Yep the lot Mar 31 13:50
oiaohm DRI in places it does. Mar 31 13:50
DaemonFC ATI and Intel do Mar 31 13:50
oiaohm Where it hooks in. Mar 31 13:50
DaemonFC Nvidia makes the only halfway decent cards Mar 31 13:50
oiaohm The complete design of DRI 1 is a lemon. Mar 31 13:50
DaemonFC so you’re kind of stuck with them if you want any kind of video performance Mar 31 13:51
oiaohm Nvidia only works by hacking around major DRI 1 defects. Mar 31 13:51
MinceR and intel makes the only GPU-s with halfway decent drivers Mar 31 13:51
qdev hey, nvidia is none the better than ati now Mar 31 13:51
MinceR so we’re stuck with stuff that sucks either way Mar 31 13:51
oiaohm Blaming the item that is not the problem is so badly wrong its not funny. Mar 31 13:52
DaemonFC Intel doesn’t make GPUs Mar 31 13:52
DaemonFC they make onboard video Mar 31 13:52
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DaemonFC that leeches system RAM Mar 31 13:52
oiaohm The old DRI 1 stack was only designed for 1 opengl card at a time. Mar 31 13:52
DaemonFC and the CPU Mar 31 13:52
MinceR which are GPUs Mar 31 13:52
oiaohm And only 1 opengl program. Mar 31 13:52
oiaohm Anything more than that is hacking. Mar 31 13:52
DaemonFC I would not call Intel video a GPU Mar 31 13:52
DaemonFC as it is not a proper GPU Mar 31 13:52
MinceR well then don’t call it a GPU Mar 31 13:52
MinceR i don’t care what you call it Mar 31 13:53
DaemonFC well, I guess it is Mar 31 13:53
DaemonFC in the sense that a Winmodem is a modem Mar 31 13:53
MinceR go troll elsewhere. Mar 31 13:53
oiaohm Not all Intel video cards are vampires. Mar 31 13:53
qdev intel cards are not even cards Mar 31 13:53
DaemonFC you can’t get good performance using DRI Mar 31 13:54
qdev and i hope that ati and nvidia will go side by side Mar 31 13:54
DaemonFC that’s why Nvidia bypasses it Mar 31 13:54
oiaohm DRI 2 allows bypassing X11 Mar 31 13:54
DaemonFC you could always bypass just about all of X Mar 31 13:55
oiaohm In kernel memory managers. Mar 31 13:55
DaemonFC I usually call that its best feature Mar 31 13:55
DaemonFC :) Mar 31 13:55
oiaohm Nvidia and other cards will be playing equal there with DRI 2. Mar 31 13:55
oiaohm Only one problem Nvidia will be slower unless they redesign. Mar 31 13:56
DaemonFC X is old, X should be replaced Mar 31 13:56
DaemonFC shame that Y didn’t catch on Mar 31 13:56
DaemonFC tat tat Mar 31 13:56
oiaohm DRI 2 basically does replace X Mar 31 13:56
oiaohm You get a frame on screen you render to directly. Mar 31 13:56
schestowitz DaemonFC: Red Hat already does that Mar 31 13:56
DaemonFC I loved the X11 chapter Mar 31 13:56
oiaohm You can even go as far as X11 servers inside X11 servers that are inside a directfb interface. Mar 31 13:57
DaemonFC in the UNIX Haters Handbook Mar 31 13:57
MinceR projects that try to replace X are based on incomplete understanding of X Mar 31 13:57
MinceR and thus they are invariably inadequate Mar 31 13:57
oiaohm Basically X11 dependance is gone DaemonFC Mar 31 13:57
DaemonFC no, X is crap Mar 31 13:57
oiaohm X is not as big crap as you think. Mar 31 13:57
DaemonFC now they even stop you from restarting it Mar 31 13:57
DaemonFC by default Mar 31 13:57
oiaohm Internal rendering engines of X11 are supprising hard to beat. Mar 31 13:57
DaemonFC should something bad happen Mar 31 13:57
qdev interface of x proggys suck Mar 31 13:58
oiaohm Really you have not tried KMS with X11 DaemonFC Mar 31 13:58
DaemonFC cause idiots apparently “accidentally” hit Ctrl-Alt_Bksp Mar 31 13:58
MinceR DaemonFC: don’t worry, i didn’t expect you to understand X either. Mar 31 13:58
oiaohm Its not a problem any more. Mar 31 13:58
DaemonFC how the hell do you accidentally hit all that? Mar 31 13:58
DaemonFC hmmm? Mar 31 13:58
oiaohm cntrl-alt-f1 and the like override with KMS always work. Mar 31 13:58
schestowitz oiaohm:  good news. I lowered mysql load to 49.41q/sec Mar 31 13:58
oiaohm No matter what X11 does to it self. Mar 31 13:58
DaemonFC so now you have to override this in xorg.conf Mar 31 13:59
schestowitz And we do about 6-7GB per day Mar 31 13:59
qdev people usually make a shortcut of ctrl-alt-bs to left mouse button Mar 31 13:59
schestowitz It used to be over 200q/sec Mar 31 13:59
oiaohm ctrl-alt-bs basically is not required on a kms system DaemonFC Mar 31 13:59
DaemonFC again with the “Users are idiots” mentality Mar 31 13:59
oiaohm You might as well set up more effect SAK Mar 31 13:59
oiaohm Than use ctrl-alt-bs Mar 31 13:59
oiaohm Do you know what SAK does DaemonFC Mar 31 13:59
DaemonFC and only Intel uses KMS right now Mar 31 14:00
DaemonFC and it’s even buggy there Mar 31 14:00
oiaohm Answer me do you know what Linux SAK does. Mar 31 14:00
DaemonFC and not supported by anything but the Fedora 11 Alpha Mar 31 14:00
schestowitz Apple and GNU not to blame for this: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/30/i… (Internet crime jumps by a third last year) Mar 31 14:00
oiaohm From the kernel itself It kills anything connected to the current active console DaemonFC Mar 31 14:00
oiaohm So unlike cntrl-alt-bs that depends on X11 still working it only depends on kernel still alive. Mar 31 14:01
oiaohm Basically cntrl alt bs is crap. Mar 31 14:01
DaemonFC they try to graft fancy new shit on something that was kind of working Mar 31 14:01
DaemonFC and you get graft-host rejection Mar 31 14:01
oiaohm You are aware that 90 pecent of X11 lockups cntrl alt bs don’t work. Mar 31 14:02
oiaohm that are not drive releated. Mar 31 14:02
DaemonFC wrong Mar 31 14:02
DaemonFC always worked for me Mar 31 14:02
oiaohm Normally because the keyboard interface would fallen over. Mar 31 14:02
DaemonFC the only hard freezes I’ve had on Linux Mar 31 14:02
DaemonFC were cause of KDE Mar 31 14:02
oiaohm And they were not KDE> Mar 31 14:03
oiaohm they were you running on a unstable graphic stack. Mar 31 14:03
DaemonFC KDE is shoddy crap Mar 31 14:03
oiaohm You could trigger them with wine and other opengl applications running side by side. Mar 31 14:03
DaemonFC They should tell you that it may cause data loss, using something they call a mature product Mar 31 14:03
oiaohm You don’t need KDE to trigger the death. Mar 31 14:03
oiaohm This is your problem.  I have debuged wine issues and KDE issue and compiz issues. Mar 31 14:04
oiaohm They are all releated. Mar 31 14:04
DaemonFC Wine runs Windows programs on Linux, you’re kind of going into it fully expecting a possible disaster Mar 31 14:04
DaemonFC KDE is supposed to be Linux supported Mar 31 14:04
oiaohm When you think wined3d that is bring X11 down Mar 31 14:04
DaemonFC but apparently it’s not Mar 31 14:04
DaemonFC ;) Mar 31 14:04
oiaohm Runs perfectly on closed source X11 servers. Mar 31 14:04
oiaohm Just not the open source ones. Mar 31 14:05
oiaohm Same with KDE 4 Mar 31 14:05
oiaohm So where is the problem. Mar 31 14:05
oiaohm It is in X11 Mar 31 14:05
oiaohm I have even had blender with other applications bring X11 down. Mar 31 14:05
DaemonFC KDE is just wrong, it’s unstable, it can’t do simple tasks right Mar 31 14:05
DaemonFC and it’s poorly laid out Mar 31 14:05
DaemonFC a bad Vista clone Mar 31 14:05
oiaohm Layout is one thing. Mar 31 14:05
oiaohm Droping you back to login. Mar 31 14:05
oiaohm is one thing. Mar 31 14:06
oiaohm Locking up the system no user space program can do without driver defects. Mar 31 14:06
DaemonFC I’m just saying it has no redeeming qualities Mar 31 14:06
DaemonFC and there needs to be a big fat warning that the developers are incompetent Mar 31 14:06
oiaohm Or X11 internal defects. Mar 31 14:06
DaemonFC and it may eat your data Mar 31 14:06
oiaohm Just like early 2.6 Linux kernels. Mar 31 14:06
oiaohm Always takes a few versions to get the rough edges off. Mar 31 14:07
MinceR 151439 < DaemonFC> a bad Vista clone Mar 31 14:07
MinceR i lol’d Mar 31 14:07
oiaohm KDE 3.0 also was rough. Mar 31 14:07
oiaohm Vista is a clone of development KDE 4 Mar 31 14:07
DaemonFC Kite-eating-tree Desktop Environment Mar 31 14:07
DaemonFC :) Mar 31 14:07
oiaohm Longhorn early interfaces that become Vista looked nothing like KDE 4 until after KDE development snapshots were released. Mar 31 14:08
oiaohm Then it kinda cloned. Mar 31 14:08
zer0c00l conflicker unplugged http://www.caida.org/research/s… Mar 31 14:08
schestowitz kde4 seems to have inspire Vista7 Mar 31 14:09
schestowitz Balrog: I’ve watch about 1.5 hours of that new RMS talk and paused it until I watch the rest of it later. The talk is not as good as others that he gave and he seems to have mixed together several familiar talks. Mar 31 14:09
DaemonFC KDE is not a good Linux experience Mar 31 14:10
DaemonFC and especially not for new users Mar 31 14:10
DaemonFC it should never be promoted to anyone that needs a stable desktop Mar 31 14:11
oiaohm You try to make out KDE as bad. Mar 31 14:11
schestowitz o” boy…   Adobe wants more Flash in Facebook  < http://www.theinquirer.net/i… > Mar 31 14:11
DaemonFC it is Mar 31 14:11
DaemonFC KDE is I Can’t Believe It’s Not Vista Mar 31 14:11
schestowitz KDE uses old metaphors that are familiar Mar 31 14:11
DaemonFC well, except Vista can properly play audio CDs Mar 31 14:11
schestowitz Vista invested NOTHING Mar 31 14:11
schestowitz DaemonFC: don’t use ubiquity for attrib Mar 31 14:11
schestowitz Vista invented NOTHING Mar 31 14:12
schestowitz Want me to show you internal MS E-mails? Mar 31 14:12
oiaohm Vista copied. Mar 31 14:12
schestowitz Where Allchin rips off Mac OS X? Mar 31 14:12
DaemonFC I just tell everyone that asks to use GNOME Mar 31 14:12
schestowitz He actually talks about it Mar 31 14:12
zer0c00l i still love kde 3.5 , 4.2 is good Mar 31 14:12
schestowitz How Microsoft needs to copy this for LH Mar 31 14:12
DaemonFC I’ve never had GNOME crash or bring down the ENTIRE system Mar 31 14:12
oiaohm You are saying KDE is a clone of Vista when the reverse is true DaemonFC Mar 31 14:12
schestowitz I’ve never had KDE crash or bring down the ENTIRE system Mar 31 14:12
DaemonFC KDE 4 didn’t exist when Vista was being designed Mar 31 14:12
DaemonFC KDE ripped them off Mar 31 14:12
schestowitz I had maybe 2 GPU errors leading to it Mar 31 14:12
DaemonFC clearlt Mar 31 14:12
DaemonFC *clearly Mar 31 14:13
oiaohm It development tree did DaemonFC Mar 31 14:13
oiaohm Its planing documents did. Mar 31 14:13
schestowitz KDE4 was developed in 2005 DaemonFC Mar 31 14:13
DaemonFC so you’re telling me that in 2004, KDE 4 had the GUI finalized? Mar 31 14:13
schestowitz In 2005 Microsoft put Longhorn in the trash can, or right about that time Mar 31 14:13
DaemonFC or even close? Mar 31 14:13
schestowitz DaemonFC: what GUI? Mar 31 14:13
schestowitz What part of the GUI? Mar 31 14:13
oiaohm Longhorn intrface was dumped about 1 month after KDE 4 planing documents were released. Mar 31 14:13
schestowitz The close button? Mar 31 14:14
schestowitz The start botton? Mar 31 14:14
DaemonFC I used development versions of Longhorn Mar 31 14:14
schestowitz Which is now just the Windows logo? Mar 31 14:14
oiaohm Because they looked aht the KDE plan and when crap. Mar 31 14:14
DaemonFC it was obvious that Microsoft copied Apple Mar 31 14:14
oiaohm Ours is bad. Mar 31 14:14
DaemonFC then KDE copied Microsoft Mar 31 14:14
oiaohm No Mar 31 14:14
oiaohm History says you are wrong. Mar 31 14:14
schestowitz Nope Mar 31 14:14
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