Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 27th, 2008

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twittervalac - C# like language for the GObject systemAug 27 01:34
twitterit's from gnome but I don't see mono in the dependencies.  Then again, I don't see why people talk about C# in the first place.Aug 27 01:37
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dustindiamondi bought a tshirtAug 27 04:32
dustindiamondto save screech's houseAug 27 04:32
dustindiamonddid I save it yet?Aug 27 04:32
dustindiamondi like his pron videosAug 27 04:33
dustindiamondthat dustin dude is coolAug 27 04:33
dustindiamondI worship himAug 27 04:33
dustindiamond<3Aug 27 04:33
dustindiamondscreech fo life!Aug 27 04:33
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schestowitzA troll from Tor was here again.Aug 27 06:13
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dsmith_ - OEM's attempt to fix VISTA problems themselves.Aug 27 06:35
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schestowitz"Calls for porting Tomboy to Windows (and maybe even Mac OS X), adding geocode filtering to RSS and fully supporting Amazon's Elastic Cloud 2 are just a few of the ideas put forth in this year's annual Hack Week." ( )Aug 27 08:15
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trmanco 27 12:17
schestowitzYes, I brought this up yesterday.Aug 27 12:18
schestowitzThe BW idiocy quotes the wrong figures.Aug 27 12:19
schestowitzIt claims decline is funding, despite it bring an all-time high. Regarding Byfield, search the name in BoycottNovell. We've been through this before.Aug 27 12:19
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schestowitzI'll leave that as a comment.Aug 27 12:20
trmancookAug 27 12:20
schestowitzI'll just copy my immediate thoughts. I don't like his attention-grabbing headline.Aug 27 12:20
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MinceRthe author makes the usual mistake of considering free software and open software two distinct thingsAug 27 12:33
schestowitzThey overlapAug 27 12:34
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MinceRi haven't seen examples of software/license matching exactly one of {the Free Software Definition; the Open Source Definition}Aug 27 12:36
schestowitzTrue. The *GPLs are approved by the OSI.Aug 27 12:38
MinceRthe way i see it, the FSD defines the goals and the OSD defines criteria that are pretty much the only way to attain those goals and pretty much guarantees themAug 27 12:47
schestowitzFree software seems like a subset of "open source".Aug 27 12:48
PetoKrauswell yesAug 27 12:52
trmancoschestowitz, I found a Mono "defender" on my blogAug 27 14:00
trmancolooks like we in Portugal have Mono fanboys too :|Aug 27 14:00
schestowitzYes, I know.Aug 27 14:01
schestowitzMany developers seem to come from there. I'll write about Mono shortly.Aug 27 14:01
schestowitztrmanco: those 'defenders' are everywhere. Ignore them. They try to police critics.Aug 27 14:01
trmancoI think I will give him a reply, after all, its the first one on my blog :PAug 27 14:02
trmancoschestowitz, this guy is a mon developer I thinkAug 27 14:06
trmancoPaulo Aboim PintoAug 27 14:06
trmancoknow him?Aug 27 14:06
trmancofound him on google and he is registered on lots of M$ related thingsAug 27 14:07
schestowitzI never heard the name. It's actually good to respond, but they'll never stop.Aug 27 14:07
schestowitzSome of them are very innocent in the sense that Mono people told them to develop in Mono, so now they are stuck and they defend their choices.Aug 27 14:07
trmancoso I'll go with your suggestion and not respond to this guyAug 27 14:07
trmanco 27 14:08
schestowitzA lot of Mono advocacy can be traced back to the maker of Mono with exclusive rights on it (Novell).Aug 27 14:08
schestowitz"Paulo Aboim Pinto, Senior Consultant, Portugal" 27 14:09
trmancoDecember 23, 2006Aug 27 14:09
trmanco    * CodeCompletionDatabase.ReadClass, Mike MoranoAug 27 14:09
trmanco    * ASP.NET plugin: Code Completion in HTML, Paulo Aboim PintoAug 27 14:09
trmancoyou can find his name around here too -> 27 14:10
trmancothis guy said that java sucked :|Aug 27 14:12
trmancoas a cross platform programming language :|Aug 27 14:13
trmancohere is his comment:Aug 27 14:14
trmanco"Não entendo pq possas achar que o Mono é uma problema .. ou mesmo um perigo.Aug 27 14:14
trmancoEu defendo o cross-platform e já que o JAVA não vale nada e é demasiado lento (mesmo comparado com o mono) a alternativa é mesmo esta … MONO.Aug 27 14:14
trmancoSeja como for .. havia algumas aplicações que não conhecia que agora vou experimentar.Aug 27 14:14
trmancoExcelente post, para quem diz que não gosta do Mono. Apresentas software de qualidade rasoável que são uma alternativa a outros de péssima qualidade no mundo Linux.Aug 27 14:14
trmancoPaulo Aboim PintoAug 27 14:14
trmancoOdivelas - Portugal"Aug 27 14:14
trmancoHe even has some words that aren't even spelled correctlyAug 27 14:15
schestowitzWell, yes... they bash Java too. That's a big problem. Novell is creating a monster and it's fighting /for/ Microsoft. They both promote .NET at the expense of open alternatives.Aug 27 14:18
trmancoastroturfAug 27 14:19
trmanco:|Aug 27 14:19
twitterI'm just reading that Byfield article.  What an ass.Aug 27 14:20
trmancobtw, the guy is using a proxy from franceAug 27 14:21
schestowitzWhich huy?Aug 27 14:21
schestowitz*guyAug 27 14:21
schestowitzIf he puts his real name there, it might not be an issue.Aug 27 14:21
trmancopedro aboim pintoAug 27 14:21
twitterByfieldAug 27 14:22
schestowitz 27 14:22
schestowitz 27 14:24
twitterNo mistaking the objectivity there.Aug 27 14:26
twitterThat last one is a hatchet piece.Aug 27 14:27
schestowitzNot the first though. I believe it started when he defended things like the OOXML (not necessarily the scandals).Aug 27 14:29
twitterHe says someone is prodding the animosity, but the last one is pure malice and right along the "Linux Hater" talking points.Aug 27 14:30
MinceRGartner has a >0 credibility? :)Aug 27 14:32
twitterAnalysts work hard to make it look like they are not bought.  Every once and a while they tell the truth.Aug 27 14:50
schestowitz<0 credibilityAug 27 14:52
schestowitz"<schestowitz> <0 credibility" looks bad. Make that "<schestowitz> Gartner<0 credibility" Aug 27 14:53
MinceR:)Aug 27 14:56
MinceRthen your list needs fixing :>Aug 27 14:57
schestowitzI've just posted about Mono: I made use of the input from trmanco.Aug 27 14:59
PetoKrauswho is bruce byfieldAug 27 14:59
PetoKraushe really SHOULD update his profile pictureAug 27 14:59
schestowitzCanadian journalist, formerly of ProgenyAug 27 15:00
schestowitzPetoKraus: which profile picture? He has several.Aug 27 15:00
twitterBlusters a lot and has taken an interest in "Open Source"Aug 27 15:00
PetoKrausschestowitz: that.... 27 15:00
trmancocoolAug 27 15:00
schestowitzWhat's wrong with it, PetoKraus?Aug 27 15:03
PetoKrausoh, never mind.Aug 27 15:03
schestowitzHere's Pruce: 27 15:03
schestowitzOops. Bruce I mean (typo).Aug 27 15:03
PetoKraushe looks better there than on that portrait picAug 27 15:04
twitterHe'd look better if I had never read what he wrote.  Where did he stand up for OOXML?Aug 27 15:05
twitter 27 15:06
twitterLet's count the talking points here 27 15:07
twitter1.   interoperability with Microsoft technologiesAug 27 15:08
twitter2.   conspiracy theoriesAug 27 15:09
twitter3.   neither side has done much to promote its causeAug 27 15:09
twitter4.   the paranoid element in the communityAug 27 15:10
schestowitzAre these quotes?Aug 27 15:10
schestowitzI remember some points, but I never read his articles. I just stare at bit of them.Aug 27 15:10
schestowitz*bitsAug 27 15:10
twitter5.   Whether or not OOXML becomes an official ISO standard, it will still become unofficial standard, simply because Microsoft Office is the main office program used on computers.Aug 27 15:11
twitterYes, these are quotes.Aug 27 15:11
twitter6.   why not get a jump on supporting it so that free software isn't left behind?Aug 27 15:12
schestowitzYes, that's the spirit.Aug 27 15:12
schestowitzStallman was such a defeatist, wasn't he?Aug 27 15:12
twitter7.  Even if Microsoft doesn't adhere to the ISO standard itself ... , working to get more details into the OOXML standard will still help free software developers to a degree.Aug 27 15:13
schestowitzWhat were the changes of a GNU system that outnumbered UNIXes, eh?Aug 27 15:13
twitter8.    the Foundation's accusers are talking in political termsAug 27 15:13
schestowitzI bet his article got lots of InBound links... from MSDN blogs.Aug 27 15:13
twitterI'll bet you are right.  M$ rewards it's tools.Aug 27 15:15
schestowitzNo, no.... he's one of the good guys usually.Aug 27 15:15
schestowitzIn terms of his stance on Microsoft, that's just bad. He is a Microsoft apologist but at the same time also a Free software supporter.Aug 27 15:16
twitterWith friends like that, who needs enemies?  At best, he's been manipulated.  At worst, he's sold out.Aug 27 15:17
twitterHe consistently dismisses ethical concerns as the product of mental illness and he often gets technical predictions wrong.  OOXML has gone nowhere.Aug 27 15:19
twitter9.    More than one blogger has suggested that no plans should be made to implement OOXML despite its seeming inevitability one way or the other. Those holding this belief even claim -- erroneously -- that KOffice's developers share it.Aug 27 15:20
twitterLike he knows what KDE is doing.Aug 27 15:20
twitterThat blogger, I think, was Richard Stallman.Aug 27 15:20
benJImankoffice people just don't have the resources to implement it. They're not taking some political stance.Aug 27 15:21
benJImanI'm finding ooxml support in openoffice increasigly useful, as I get sent ooxml documents even more often than .doc now.Aug 27 15:21
benJImanNever ODF though, as sensible people send pdfs anyway.Aug 27 15:22
PetoKrauswellAug 27 15:22
PetoKrausi always send odfAug 27 15:22
PetoKraus;)Aug 27 15:22
PetoKrausexcept job applications, there i send pdfAug 27 15:23
benJImanODF is pretty silly if the recipient does not need to edit it.Aug 27 15:23
twitterThat's sad for you.  ODF, by all reasonable measures is still more common than ODF.  Google docs make sure of that.Aug 27 15:23
benJImanYou don't know if they have the same fonts, the same version may render it differently, etc.Aug 27 15:23
twitterDamn shame M$ keeps doing their users font disservices.Aug 27 15:23
benJImanPDF is more sensible for a final-format before printing.Aug 27 15:23
PetoKrausyes. that's why i send to important places (job) PDF'sAug 27 15:23
twitterKoffice is GPL, how can you say they have not taken a political stance?Aug 27 15:24
PetoKrausalso, i don't feel like my boss editing my CV ;)Aug 27 15:24
benJImanIf you want the copy at the user's end to look like yours then there's PDF or postscript. If they just need the information why not use plain text or hypertext. If they need to be able to edit it then there's always a document.Aug 27 15:24
benJImanPetoKraus: One can edit PDFs, just not easily reflow text etc.Aug 27 15:25
MinceR162729 < twitter> That's sad for you.  ODF, by all reasonable measures is still more common than ODF.  Google docs make sure of that.Aug 27 15:25
MinceRone of those ODFs should be PDF :)Aug 27 15:25
benJImantwitter: No-one has contributed a patch that was rejected.Aug 27 15:25
schestowitzJust a clarification to all: benJIman is at SUSE.Aug 27 15:25
schestowitz*SuSE.Aug 27 15:25
benJImanOnly visiting.Aug 27 15:26
twitterLack of community action is sane.  OOXML is technically impossible to implement.Aug 27 15:26
twitterDoes Koffice do the last BS "standard" from M$, Rich Text?Aug 27 15:26
twitter10.   The trouble is that they begin with imperatives that are utterly irreconcilable with those held by the other side. And what that means is that finding common ground between them is next to impossible. Both sides can only express their viewpoints over and over, growing more frustrated by the other side's apparent inability to hear.Aug 27 15:26
schestowitzOnly Bruce is 'sane' then.Aug 27 15:27
twitterGood grief, there are three pages of this drivel.Aug 27 15:27
schestowitzThat's why I never read it.Aug 27 15:28
schestowitzI just spotted weasel words like "conspiracy theorist" and then responded. There's more than one such article.Aug 27 15:28
benJImantwitter: If you actually read the interview [ ] You'll see that the reasons for not implementing ooxml are entirely practical. This has been re-iterated in several blogs since then.Aug 27 15:28
twitterWell, that makes Bruce entirely wrong.  There are both practical and ethical reasons to avoid M$XML.  I think the good people at KDE are bright enough to see both.Aug 27 15:30
benJImanI highly doubt that they would reject the contribution of a import filter for ooxml, but since no-one has or is likely to contribute one it's only idle speculation.Aug 27 15:30
twitterThey have their work cut out getting ODF working and have no need to chase M$'s tail.Aug 27 15:30
*schestowitz was never sent /any/ OOXML file, not even in lists. Plenty of ODF though.Aug 27 15:31
twitterIs anyone not on a corporate payroll torturing themselves with M$XML?Aug 27 15:31
MinceRi'm afraid in the end we'll be forced to support OOXML anywayAug 27 15:32
twitterYou might as well say that you will be running Vista.Aug 27 15:32
MinceRunless the market share of m$ office decreases significantlyAug 27 15:32
schestowitzMinceR:  Google Apps gains tractionAug 27 15:33
MinceRbut will it be enough to move backwards places like hungarian authorities?Aug 27 15:33
schestowitzGoogle Apps does ODF and PDF. It also does /legacy/  Office files, but no OOXML. Many business go in that direction and they pass around URLs (Google), not files. ODF is built in, on the cloud.Aug 27 15:33
twitterWhen it comes down to it, OO is free and ODF will prevail.  Those clinging to DOC and M$XML will be increasingly isolated.Aug 27 15:34
schestowitzThis means that you needn't even ask your peer to install ODF-compatible s/w, not even pseudo-compatible like that 'promised' vapourware that's MSO07 SP.Aug 27 15:34
schestowitztwitter: OOo is not the future.Aug 27 15:35
twitterEveryone is going to know that OO will work when there's a conflict.Aug 27 15:35
schestowitzIt's good for offline access to files, but even /I/ don't use an office suite. It's an overkill. To businesses, things are bound to change also. Microsoft itself is now yelling at its partners, saying that they might die if they don't go Web-based.Aug 27 15:36
twitterI'm not a big OO fan, but I can tell a M$ Office user that they can work with me by downloading a free program.  That works a lot easier than me having to buy a new computer and $450 with of software.Aug 27 15:36
trmanco$450 minimumAug 27 15:36
twitterDon't be distracted, the war is fought in exchanges like that.Aug 27 15:37
twitterBaton Rouge area schools tried to push out OOXML but I don't think it worked out well for them.Aug 27 15:37
twitter11.   those who oppose the Foundation -- not without reason -- need to show their commitment to the greater community, rather than to the gut-level thrill of the attack.Aug 27 15:40
twitter12.   The time for opposition is over, and the search for solutions needs to begin.Aug 27 15:41
twitterMore defeatism.  OOXML was in the midst of a huge corruption scandal and this clown was telling people to give up and suck Ballmer's new formatAug 27 15:42
twitterAh ha, he takes a swipe at PJAug 27 15:43
twitter13.   Were people like Pamela Jones of Groklaw or Alberto Barrionuevo of Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure to take similar steps towards cooperation, the issue might soon be solved.Aug 27 15:43
twitterThe whole article a hatchet job on both the Gnome people and their advocates.  Bruce is not a friend of software freedom or Open Software (whatever that is)Aug 27 15:45
schestowitzI never saw that before.Aug 27 15:58
schestowitzWow.Aug 27 15:58
twitterHe pretends to be reasonable but he's slamming everyone.  The pattern is too consistent to dismiss.Aug 27 16:02
twitterHe does not slam M$ for their obvious file lock in and attempts to defeat free markets and free software, he just considers that "reality" the community has to suck up.Aug 27 16:08
twitterThat's the brainwash the SLOG is intended to create.Aug 27 16:09
MinceROpen Software is another name for Free Source ;)Aug 27 16:11
twitterYet the M$ position has never been weaker.  They are making unbearable demands of their users.  Format and GUI changes at the same time, all of which are catch up to competition which has been there for a decade.Aug 27 16:12
twitterCheck this out. 27 16:13
schestowitzFair pointAug 27 16:16
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twitterIt's interesting that they are openly degrading XP to push Vista.  I can't wait for that to backfire in their Authorized Refurbisher channels.Aug 27 16:19
schestowitzThey did it before.Aug 27 16:19
schestowitzLet me find somethingAug 27 16:20
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twitterplease do.  I know they have screwed over their users forever, but it's never been so obvious has it?Aug 27 16:20
seller_liarhelloAug 27 16:20
schestowitzRecent example: 27 16:20
schestowitzHey, seller_liar Aug 27 16:21
seller_liarschestowitz: hello royAug 27 16:21
seller_liarI was thinking....Aug 27 16:21
schestowitzTo Microsoft, the targets for forced upgrades are MSO97 and Win2000 users.Aug 27 16:21
seller_liarWhat would happen with Linux if there were no businesses?Aug 27 16:22
schestowitzGot it: 27 16:22
twittergot more?  I remember the transition from 95 to 98, but the "updates" that broke 95 seem to have been by stealth.Aug 27 16:22
twitterlookingAug 27 16:23
MinceRseller_liar: its development would be slowerAug 27 16:23
seller_liarno!Aug 27 16:23
seller_liarMinceR: why mince?Aug 27 16:23
MinceRbut commercial closed source systems' development would stop completely if there were no businessesAug 27 16:23
twitterobsolescence yesAug 27 16:23
MinceRseller_liar: because there won't be funding coming from themAug 27 16:23
MinceR(money and employee work time)Aug 27 16:24
seller_liarwait , i will explain my idea?Aug 27 16:24
MinceRokAug 27 16:24
*MinceR waitsAug 27 16:24
twittermachine binding, yesAug 27 16:25
seller_liarWe may not get so much money, but so the community would be stronger and less stationed.Aug 27 16:25
twittertechnical and EULA based.Aug 27 16:25
MinceRis the community hampered by businesses that much?Aug 27 16:25
schestowitzSays who, Byfield in that latest article?Aug 27 16:26
schestowitzI find that to be FUD from those who wish to believe their importance.Aug 27 16:26
seller_liarPeople would not give much importance on resources, they be interested in how to improve things. The free software worth more instead of open sourceAug 27 16:26
MinceRthe people who are interested in that can get involved anywayAug 27 16:27
seller_liarnoAug 27 16:27
schestowitzGood news: 27 16:28
MinceRtoo bad dell has already bought into the m$ patent racketAug 27 16:29
seller_liarNo, people are lost in the resources that the "Linux" can offer, but do not worry about the "GNU Linux"Aug 27 16:29
twitterThe non free software people have always declared free software impossible.  Without company backing you will never have a free kernel, an easy to use GUI, good documentation, etc.  It's an obvious lie now.  Byfield's latest is just another shade of that argument.Aug 27 16:29
seller_liarAs a los alamos computer can offer Linux without paying taxes to m$?Aug 27 16:30
twitterlooking at the good newsAug 27 16:31
schestowitzI'll post a bunch of links shortly.Aug 27 16:32
twitterIntel processors ... a MODEM?  Who wants a modem?  Ubuntu, that's good news.  Cheap is good if it's cheap enough.Aug 27 16:35
MinceRbesides, dell quality sucksAug 27 16:35
twitterThe real issue is free software support for the chipsets.  All in all, it's a step in the right direction.Aug 27 16:35
seller_liarIt's possible to improve the modem algorithm? It's patented?Aug 27 16:35
twitterModems are best improved by removing them.Aug 27 16:36
seller_liarhehAug 27 16:36
seller_liarBut , I rememberAug 27 16:36
seller_liarmodem was patented a lotAug 27 16:36
schestowitztwitter: here in the UK, adoption of GNU/Linux is horrible (compared to the rest of the world). And yet.. a recent study found that 3% of the people in the UK now buy a PC with GNU/Linux preinstalled. This doesn't include people like me that buy a PC without an O/S and people who wipe Windows or dual-boot.Aug 27 16:37
schestowitzSpotted last week: "There's a lot of Linux out there -- much more than Microsoft generally signals publicly -- and their customers are using it..." --Paul DeGroot, a Directions On Microsoft analyst.Aug 27 16:38
twitterGood for Paul.Aug 27 16:39
twitterBruce Perens pointed out that everyone was a free software user every time they used the web.Aug 27 16:40
schestowitzBTW, twitter, someone talked about you in BN comments.Aug 27 16:40
twitterI've seen a lot of that at Slashdot.  They don't like it when people share.Aug 27 16:40
schestowitzComment at the bottom of:  Aug 27 16:41
schestowitzYou were also 'investigated' in USENET.Aug 27 16:41
seller_liaroh my god!Aug 27 16:41
seller_liarwhy people are angry ?Aug 27 16:41
twitteralways the bottom of the barrelAug 27 16:41
twitterM$ hates me.Aug 27 16:41
twitterI've given Slashdot a lot of good front page material over the years.Aug 27 16:42
seller_liarthe people who "search" for you ,is m$ people?Aug 27 16:42
schestowitzI'd agree with them that it's wrong to have aliases. I never set up multiple accounts anywhere. I saw others who do it.Aug 27 16:42
twitterIf I followed M$'s advice, I'd be a Vista user.Aug 27 16:42
seller_liarit's very hard to mantain  anonimousAug 27 16:42
schestowitzWhen I put Iowa exhibits (like Bill gates versus Linux with ACPI) I got attacked fiercely. It happened a lot when I submitted criminal evidence, which soon became popular in Digg.Aug 27 16:43
schestowitzIt could be coincidental though.Aug 27 16:43
schestowitzThat O'Brien guy BTW is defending Microsoft in other blogs, esp.Mono stuff.Aug 27 16:44
twitterIt's not coincidental and the attack on my twitter account was the reason for me getting new aliases not the other way around.Aug 27 16:44
schestowitzI'll find something from this morning. Hold on...Aug 27 16:44
twitterThe hypocrisy of trolls, is part of their attack.Aug 27 16:45
schestowitz (scroll to the bottom)Aug 27 16:45
schestowitzIt's interesting that he also 'exposed' Slated. He has inside information or shares it (privately or in mailing ,lists)Aug 27 16:45
MinceRwhich digg post was that criminal evidence?Aug 27 16:46
twitterThere's not so much of an exposure as there is a display of paranoid ranting in defense of a mega corp.Aug 27 16:46
seller_liarm$ seems like agent smithAug 27 16:46
twitterI mean really.  Who reads and trusts bullshit smears like that?Aug 27 16:46
seller_liarand the other 2 agents is intel and IBMAug 27 16:47
schestowitzMinceR: yesterday I posted a link there to the fraud post.Aug 27 16:47
schestowitzBefore that there was the anti-trust exhibits (as PDF)Aug 27 16:47
twitterThe only two people in the world who care about trolls are the troll and the target.Aug 27 16:47
seller_liarI’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you aren’t actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive isAug 27 16:47
seller_liarto spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we... are the cure.Aug 27 16:47
seller_liarcancer......Aug 27 16:48
schestowitztwitter: seen that URL yet... or post? Dan O'Brien is there to  rromptly defend Mono.Aug 27 16:48
MinceRi agree with Agent SmithAug 27 16:49
seller_liardan , uses real personal namesAug 27 16:49
schestowitzseller_liar: Microsoft is building a SUSE-based Vista. Best feature: "cancer" or "allow"Aug 27 16:49
seller_liarit's a shameAug 27 16:49
MinceRlolAug 27 16:49
twitterlooking, don't know if O'Brien is a real name or not.  IAug 27 16:49
seller_liarm$ strategy: the cancer grows and kill the body gne linuxAug 27 16:49
seller_liarhe cites kentmaAug 27 16:50
seller_liaroh sorryAug 27 16:50
seller_liarhe cites slatedAug 27 16:50
seller_liarKeith G. Robertson-TurnerAug 27 16:50
twitterThere you have it, a successful attack on the community's network.  They pay people to stink up the web.Aug 27 16:52
seller_liarhey roy it'good if someday we make a book about all m$ attacks in a wiki styleAug 27 16:54
twitterThey have censored my comments by gaming the system and use my response as some kind of my dishonesty.  That line of argument should not work very well for them.Aug 27 16:55
schestowitzSee if you can find who Dan is. I find it interesting that despite the fact that he hates BN, he does read the IRC logs. Who would bother and find the time if the content s/he disagrees with?Aug 27 16:55
twitterproof of dishonesty.Aug 27 16:55
schestowitzBTW, he's not alone.Aug 27 16:55
twitterHe probably is alone and using multiple aliases.  Chasing down his identity is a waste of time.Aug 27 16:56
schestowitzA Munchkin who goes by the name "Tim Smith" posted in USENET some stuff I wrote in IRC. He stalks me also in Digg and Slashdot. He has quietly read me site/s for a while too.Aug 27 16:56
MinceRi sometimes read content i disagree withAug 27 16:56
twitterEveryone who reads things besides their own diary reads content they disagree with.Aug 27 16:57
schestowitztwitter: there was someone called 'eet' who attacked BN endlessly using dozens of nyms and proxies.Aug 27 16:57
schestowitzHe comes back on occasions. He lives in Germany on the face of it.Aug 27 16:57
twitterThe Steve Barkto incident is telling because Barkto means shadowAug 27 16:57
seller_liarand attacks beranger tooAug 27 16:57
schestowitzHe also harrasses Berganger if he writes about Novell.Aug 27 16:57
twitterPeople like you can trace these things down from server logs.  Beyond that, you have nothing really.Aug 27 16:58
schestowitzYes, seller_liar, you beat me to it.Aug 27 16:58
schestowitztwitter: seen what Joe Barr wrote about 'Barkto'?Aug 27 16:58
seller_liarthe strategy :advises all distro creators about monoAug 27 16:59
seller_liarI'm doing this in my countryAug 27 16:59
twitterI'm not sure.  Is that the author of the essential lists aritcle?Aug 27 16:59
schestowitzJoe was chasing those shills like rabbits and he got threatened too. He's an editor... award-winning, I think.Aug 27 16:59
schestowitzMary Jo Foley told me about Dan Rather.Aug 27 16:59
twitterAhh, interesting.Aug 27 16:59
schestowitzApparently they play punish & reard.Aug 27 16:59
schestowitz*rewardAug 27 16:59
twitterYes they do.Aug 27 17:00
twitterSo says the SLOG DOC.Aug 27 17:00
schestowitztwitter: let me find it.Aug 27 17:00
twitter:)Aug 27 17:00
seller_liara site called ,a lot about mono has discussedAug 27 17:00
schestowitz 27 17:00
schestowitz 27 17:00
twitterlookingAug 27 17:01
schestowitzI'm still desperate to get to the bottom of this. What got me into exploring it (and be distracted) are the personal attacks (direct and indirect, i.e. bosses, colleagues, family).Aug 27 17:01
seller_liarthe first link gives a 404 errorAug 27 17:02
schestowitzseller_liar: yes, I copies and paste twice.Aug 27 17:02
schestowitz*copiedAug 27 17:02
seller_liaroh sorry , I see nowAug 27 17:02
twitterLOL, "One unfortunate reality of Microsoft’s reputation for dishonesty is  that its employees can immediately gain credibility by claiming not  to be MS employees"Aug 27 17:04
seller_liarCan I cite some brazilian sites which you can avoid?Aug 27 17:04
schestowitzYes, please.Aug 27 17:05
seller_liarPLEASE DON GO IN THESE SITESAug 27 17:06
seller_liarmeiobit.comAug 27 17:06
schestowitzIt bothers me that Carla at Linux Today is still linking to Enderle articles. It's a proven fact that he's with Microsoft, but Jupitermedia is of the opinion that bad news is news too... (so never mind if it comes from a shill?)Aug 27 17:06 27 17:07
trmancoseller_liar, why not?Aug 27 17:08
seller_liarpro m$Aug 27 17:08
trmancoyes probablyAug 27 17:09
trmancoyou are Brazilian right?Aug 27 17:09
seller_liarhey roy do you have some info about  Wonderware and  MicrosoftAug 27 17:09
seller_liaryes , heheh look my engrish....Aug 27 17:09
schestowitzWhat's that?Aug 27 17:10
schestowitzWonderware?Aug 27 17:10
trmancowell I'm Portuguese if you haven't noticed yetAug 27 17:10
seller_liartrmanco: oh que bomAug 27 17:10
trmanco:)Aug 27 17:11
seller_liar 27 17:11
seller_liaranother pro m$ siteAug 27 17:11
seller_liartrmanco: Bruno Miguel é bastante participativo no grupo da gnewsense]Aug 27 17:13
seller_liari need to goAug 27 17:16
seller_liarsorry for my bad ideas....Aug 27 17:16
seller_liarbyeAug 27 17:16
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HtheletterofloveHello, I'm interested in transcripts from Microsoft's various court appearances. These documents should all be public domain if I am correct.Aug 27 17:23
HtheletterofloveWhere would I find these?Aug 27 17:23
schestowitzHi, Groklaw has a good index.Aug 27 17:24
schestowitz 27 17:24
HtheletterofloveThank you. Would this index contain transcripts in whole or in part, and are these links to excerpts or full transcripts please?Aug 27 17:24
schestowitzA bit of both. What specifically fo you need?Aug 27 17:25
schestowitz*doAug 27 17:25
HtheletterofloveOur firm is interested in collecting any and all transcripts in preparation for our potential efforts.Aug 27 17:26
schestowitzMay  I just ask why you use Tor?Aug 27 17:27
HtheletterofloveAll of our IT staff use it as mandated by policyAug 27 17:28
schestowitzWhat's the effort focused on?Aug 27 17:28
HtheletteroflovelitigationAug 27 17:28
HtheletterofloveWe require this information. Is Groklaw the only site with transcripts?Aug 27 17:29
schestowitzNot necessarily.Aug 27 17:29
schestowitzDoes PACER not have some?Aug 27 17:30
HtheletterofloveWhere should we beginAug 27 17:30
HtheletterofloveI'm in love with an inflatable womanAug 27 17:30
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schestowitzTroll, of course... that was predictable.Aug 27 17:31
schestowitz "The free, invitation-only event will feature an address by Novell CEO Ron Hovsepian and a question-and-answer session with Zemlin. " Zemlin and Hovsepian again. The LF and Novell are close.Aug 27 17:47
schestowitzUpdate on "Microfraud": Someone also mailed me this: "I remember over the years vague rumblings about this stuff: I'm sure a lot will unravel in the years to come...especially with a few helpful kicks from people such as yourself..."Aug 27 18:03
schestowitzThe Big Corporate Tax Break  - 27 18:05
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EruaranhelloAug 27 18:22
schestowitzHowdy.Aug 27 18:22
schestowitzWhat's up?Aug 27 18:23
Eruarannot much atmAug 27 18:23
EruaranI thought its been a while since I last was hereAug 27 18:23
Eruaranso I thought I'd come and see whats upAug 27 18:24
schestowitzI think I saw a comment of yours the other day, unless there's another person identified as "Eruaran".Aug 27 18:24
EruaranThere's not many Eruarans I don't thinkAug 27 18:24
EruaranExcept on youtubAug 27 18:24
Eruaran*youtubeAug 27 18:24
EruaranIts sufficiently obscure for me to be able to use the same nick in most placesAug 27 18:25
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EruaranI tried to use Eruaran on YoutubeAug 27 18:26
Eruaranbut somebody already took itAug 27 18:26
EruaranI couldn't believe it :PAug 27 18:26
EruaranSo I put a K in front of itAug 27 18:27
EruaranI'm going to learn C++Aug 27 18:28
EruaranIts about time I did something useful reallyAug 27 18:28
EruaranI did my 'hello world'Aug 27 18:29
schestowitzHack on existing stuff.Aug 27 18:30
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schestowitzBest way to learn, IMHO, is to play with existing programs.Aug 27 18:30
EruaranI have very bit "L" plates on atmAug 27 18:30
schestowitzAlso, since you needn't do 'homework' level stuff, you can dive right into KNode or Kate, compile it and then 'massage' it, then recompile. Better yet, go to Bugzilla, find bug report and make it s challenge or exercise to write the patch.Aug 27 18:31
_DougYou can't learn C+= from a book, you must learn it at the feet of a master, who is wise i nthe ways of properties and methods .. not to mention the advanced skillfull means of polymorphic overloading .. :)Aug 27 18:31
Eruarannot using a book atmAug 27 18:32
_Dougatm ?Aug 27 18:32
Eruaranat the momentAug 27 18:32
_DougSeriously, it's not like anyother language, if you ever dabbled on Basic (spit) you are damaged for life ..Aug 27 18:34
_DougYOu need to absorb the concepts before you start typing line of code ..Aug 27 18:34
Eruarannever dabbled in basicAug 27 18:35
Eruarandabbled in turbo pascal many years agoAug 27 18:36
_DougGood .. no bad habits then GOTO line eval((t * 2 **32) mod 1000 )Aug 27 18:36
_DougPascal was a much more structured language, Modula (based on it) was used in schools ..Aug 27 18:37
Eruaranyes thats why we used itAug 27 18:37
trmancopascal i still used in schools these daysAug 27 18:37
trmancois*Aug 27 18:38
_DougI of course wrote in assembler on a VAX/VMS .. (code snob)Aug 27 18:38
EruaranI played a game on an old 286 once that was allegedly written in assemblyAug 27 18:38
Eruaranit was called 'linewars'Aug 27 18:38
Eruaranbut I cant find it anywhereAug 27 18:38
Eruaranit was fast, 3d with polygons, even on an old 286Aug 27 18:39
_DougThere's a number of 'DOS' games out there that fit in the MBR .. :)Aug 27 18:39
_DougYea, assembler is small fast . .and mental torture .. :)Aug 27 18:39
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EruaranhehAug 27 18:40
Eruaranit was impressiveAug 27 18:40
Eruaranpretty basic by todays standards, but the gameplay was greatAug 27 18:40
schestowitzThe Forrester mouth-for-hire seems to be doing legwork for MS again: 27 18:44
EruaranOn a light note, the company I work for internally refers to Fujitsu notebooks as Jujitzu.Aug 27 18:47
_DougWhen did any 'upgrade' of the Microsoft 'ecosystem' ever add any value to the bottom line of any major company ?Aug 27 18:47
EruaranI think they might mean Microsoft's bottom line ;)Aug 27 18:48
schestowitzIntl.Aug 27 18:48
schestowitz*Intel (INTC)Aug 27 18:48
_DougUpgrade to W2K, disruption, upgrade to W2K03, disruption, now Vista, do these companies realize they'l have to bin all their current hardware ..Aug 27 18:49
schestowitz" Computer viruses make it to orbit " 27 18:50
_DougBy the time Vista is stable (version 3) it'll be time to 'upgrade' to Windows 7 (need a supercomputer to get the screen to update fast enough )Aug 27 18:50
schestowitzWhen Will They Ever Learn...?  ...not to use Windows: 27 18:50
_DougYea, but it was the Russians fault .. :)Aug 27 18:51
_Doug 2GB to browse and email and type a letter ... ???Aug 27 18:52
Eruarangtg bblAug 27 18:53
schestowitzcyaAug 27 18:54
_Dougwha' ?Aug 27 18:54
schestowitz_Doug: which O/S? Vista is more.Aug 27 18:54
_Dougmore what ?Aug 27 18:54
schestowitzThe illusion of progress. More gagabytes of trash on the DVD.Aug 27 18:54
_DougGartner on Vista .. 2GB ..Aug 27 18:54
_Doug2GB for the screen to light up .. :)Aug 27 18:55
_Doug"with the new Windows campaign bound to bring the focus back to Vista and with much more powerful 2GB machines available for lower prices"Aug 27 18:55
_Dougfucking lies, it wil light up with 2GB, you need 4 to get it to do anything, remember upgrading from 98 to NT .. need bigger hardware . .NT to 2003 .. bigger hardware .. now with Vista you need bigger hardware to run the DRM stuff i nthe background ..Aug 27 18:56
_DougHAve you seen how many processes run on a Vista, with no apps running ?Aug 27 18:57
trmanco60Aug 27 19:03
trmancoif I'm not mistakenAug 27 19:03
trmanco45-60Aug 27 19:03
schestowitzI thought it was more. 700 MB of RAM.Aug 27 19:03
trmancomy school is crap, this year we are going to upgrade the machines to Vista because the government likes to waste our money in crappy educational softwareAug 27 19:05
_Dougnumber of processes v RAM .. I dunno .. what ARE they all doing ?Aug 27 19:05
trmanco90% of the times it eats up around half of your memoryAug 27 19:06
_DougDoes Vista add anything to the experience, apart from dumbing it down a bit more ?Aug 27 19:06
schestowitz_Doug: that's w/o AS software...Aug 27 19:06
schestowitz*AVAug 27 19:06
_DougYea, I experience keybaord delay a lot and window delay, it's the AV gunk in the background ..Aug 27 19:07
trmancoif you have 1gig, 500megs are occupied, if you have 2 gigs 1 gb of ram is occupied and so onAug 27 19:08
trmancoI haven't tried with 4gigs yet, but it is probably the same thing anywayAug 27 19:09
_DougThe GUI should be on a chip, heck, everything should be on a chip ..Aug 27 19:11
_DougLIke an Atari .. :)Aug 27 19:11
MinceRthings you put on a chip become much more difficult to changeAug 27 19:13
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schestowitzIntel and Microsoft are fighting GNU/Linux in South Africa now.Aug 27 19:16
_DougWell, yea, but once you get the specs right, they don't need to change for a long time, like TCP/IP for instance ..Aug 27 19:16
schestowitzI knew Microsoft did this, but Intel shows up as well now: "South Africa's retail bank Absa has teamed with Intel and Microsoft to offer students PC and notebook finance packages. In a joint statement, the three said ..."Aug 27 19:16
schestowitz 27 19:16
MinceRa GUI is no TCP/IP thoughAug 27 19:17
MinceR"The article you requested is only available to subscribers"Aug 27 19:18
_Dougsame principle, put the core functions on a chip, not a DLL, faster and more secure, no hacking the system with a corrupted image file ..Aug 27 19:21
_DougThe atari did graphics better than Windows precicely for this reason .. that's why you need a 5TB 4GM ram machine to emulate it ..:)Aug 27 19:22
MinceRi think there was a different reason thereAug 27 19:23
MinceRnamely that windows is a horribly bad implementation of a mishmash of inherently flawed designsAug 27 19:23
MinceRit's easy to do graphics better than itAug 27 19:24
_DougYOu could do Windows on five chips ..Aug 27 19:24
MinceRi did a better windows in two assembly instructions: cli; hltAug 27 19:24
MinceR;)Aug 27 19:24
_DougIt's easier to do anything better than Windows, A modern implimentation of Linux matches it and exceed it in a number of cases, on the same hardware ..Aug 27 19:24
schestowitzIs this an article or an advert? Very fishy: 27 19:25
schestowitzMinceR: yes, it's blocked, but I got past it.Aug 27 19:25
schestowitzHave you realised the the press is bombarding readers with this non-event?  Other browsers have had it _FOR YEARS_!! But only Microsoft generates media hype.Aug 27 19:32
schestowitz*sigh* They get a patent for it too, just like PgDwn//PgUp in 2005: 27 19:34
_DougIt doesn't count unless MS does it like the database file system in Longhorn . .:)Aug 27 19:39
schestowitzLonghorn is dead, long live Longhorn.Aug 27 19:39
twitterHi. I updated my poison pen collection to include Byfield and need to wash my mind.Aug 27 19:42
twitterRead the slog doc again and found this on harassment:Aug 27 19:42
twitter What will cause the enemy to quit?, Lack of support, Public humiliation, Low return on investment,  NothingAug 27 19:42
twitterKind of explains a lot of trolling.  They don't mention economic assassination, where they go to your boss though.Aug 27 19:43
schestowitzLook at OpenMalaysia for details.Aug 27 19:44
MinceRImmaCharginMalaysiaAug 27 19:45
twitterI also thought about accusations of dishonesty in multi accounting and want to call it blatant hypocrisy again.Aug 27 19:46
schestowitz 27 19:46
schestowitzOops. Not that link.Aug 27 19:46
schestowitzThis one: 27 19:46
twitterRoy, you know who I am.  So does Slashdot.  This is not true for trolls.Aug 27 19:46
schestowitz 27 19:48
schestowitzThe guy who wrote this is a Microsoft Munchkin for all I can tell. Decades. He has an account harlow-moneys in Slashdot. He also reads the BN IRC logs, or at least communicates with other about them.Aug 27 19:48
schestowitz*othersAug 27 19:48
twitterhmmm, You showed me that earlier.  Nasty.Aug 27 19:49
twitterHa ha, a funny from the Register:  "it would be below us to suggest that even the pirates have a hard time selling Vista."Aug 27 20:39
twitterarticle about nagware 27 20:39
schestowitzYes, seen it earlier.Aug 27 20:40
schestowitzPostPath has just been bought. :-(Aug 27 20:40
schestowitzCisco.Aug 27 20:40
schestowitzNot exactly the biggest Microsoft, partner but still... over $200 million for Linux-based (proprietary mail server.Aug 27 20:40
_Douggtg ..Aug 27 20:42
*_Doug has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Aug 27 20:42
twitterWhy is it that Cisco coincides with evil sounding stories?Aug 27 20:42
schestowitzI don't know. 27 20:43
schestowitz"PostPath offers a Linux-based e-mail, calendaring and collaboration solution. It is interoperable with many other e-mail solutions and provides a browser-independent AJAX Web client. In addition, PostPath's software is compatible with a number of mobile clients."Aug 27 20:43
schestowitzThe problem is that Scalix got hijacked by Xandrosoft (Microsoft partner)Aug 27 20:44
schestowitzScalix, unlike PostPath, was open source. At least Zimbra is safe for now, but it's not FOSS.Aug 27 20:44
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PetoKraus@ google trends - how about adding some for, eg, ubuntu, debian, free software foundation?Aug 27 21:08
PetoKrausjust for reference, even if they are nAug 27 21:08
PetoKraus*not pleasant ;)Aug 27 21:08
schestowitzFair point.Aug 27 21:09
schestowitzBut that would be a general GNU/Linux thing...Aug 27 21:09
schestowitzI'm trying to make a point there.Aug 27 21:09
schestowitzAdvocacy comes among the links.Aug 27 21:09
schestowitzI also found many failure stories about Microsoft and I shall post an "eye on Microsoft" thingie later.Aug 27 21:09
PetoKrausok, that's good...Aug 27 21:10
schestowitzI fell behind. The computer at work dropped the connection. I'm not sure why.Aug 27 21:11
PetoKraushehe, the czech thing is niceAug 27 21:13
schestowitz?Aug 27 21:13
PetoKrausthat reimbursed userAug 27 21:13
schestowitzOh, *that*Aug 27 21:13
schestowitzNDAs and all. It's worth a whole post, but I don't have the time. :-((Aug 27 21:14
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mib_gp0qvoHi:  I was reading on BoycottNovell  Are there any other articles concerning the refusal of the Microsoft EULA?Aug 27 21:30
schestowitzYes.Aug 27 21:30
schestowitzHold on...Aug 27 21:30
schestowitz 27 21:31
schestowitzThere's a link there to the BBC article. I can think of 3 different OEMs that did this. Also see: 27 21:32
PetoKrausthe british retailers would lie to you about that, thoughAug 27 21:32
schestowitzYou have to push hard, yes..Aug 27 21:32
schestowitz.Aug 27 21:32
PetoKrausactually, i guess our company would redirect you to the manufacturer...Aug 27 21:32
PetoKrauswhich is kind of sad.Aug 27 21:32
schestowitzEasy for them.Aug 27 21:33
PetoKrausyesAug 27 21:33
schestowitzI just bought my last PC without an O/S.Aug 27 21:33
PetoKrausit's also easy for us to... use... umm... yes, _these_ versions of database/cms/office.Aug 27 21:33
PetoKrausthen you go there, uninstall M$ Office, install Openoffice, everything worksAug 27 21:34
PetoKrausBUT they'll install it back anyway.Aug 27 21:34
PetoKrausPHBAug 27 21:34
mib_gp0qvoWas trying to understand the EULA; I can't. That's why I was.Aug 27 21:34
mib_gp0qvoThat's why I ask, sorry for typoAug 27 21:35
schestowitzIf it's refused when you buy a new PC, you might be able to get a refund. It worked with the XP EULA.Aug 27 21:35
PetoKrausyes. though you have to really press hardAug 27 21:37
PetoKrausand don't agree to the license :PAug 27 21:37
PetoKrausthough it's cat and mouse problem, AFAIK. eg acer - they give you support only if you try out their recovery CD's firstAug 27 21:38
schestowitzPoland recently filed a complaint against it.Aug 27 21:38
PetoKrausbut you can't get the recovery CD's if you don't agree to the licenseAug 27 21:38
schestowitzMicrosoft cgoes out of its way to prevent people from even buying just HARDWARE. They bundle Windows everywhere.Aug 27 21:38
schestowitzThen there's that ActiveX, DirectX, XAML stuff which ensures you'll get screwed very hard if you say "no" to a Windows partition. But the regulators are asleep.Aug 27 21:38
schestowitzI got some E-mails earlier today about that Microsoft fraud story. There's an update on that connecting it to political corruption, which is why known crime is routinely ignored.Aug 27 21:39
mib_gp0qvoI don't get that one, about the partition.Aug 27 21:39
PetoKrausmib_3h4ih0: your computer gets... knackered, right?Aug 27 21:40
PetoKrausso you call acerAug 27 21:40
PetoKrausthey ask you if you did use their recovery CD'sAug 27 21:40
schestowitzmib_3h4ih0: the "recommends Vista" should be illegal too. The ASA should look into that. It's a lie.Aug 27 21:40
PetoKrausyou say you didn't, since there was no way to burn them, since you disagreed with software eulaAug 27 21:40
mib_gp0qvoOn the Dell sight it's the 1st thing you seeAug 27 21:41
PetoKrausdell are actually quite goodAug 27 21:41
PetoKrausthey don't care much about the sw partAug 27 21:42
schestowitzDell deserves credit for having the dam burst.Aug 27 21:42
PetoKraushp's are terrible, acer's are quite bad in thisAug 27 21:43
PetoKrausso i hear.Aug 27 21:43
schestowitzIt's a shame about the codecs tax, but at least it listened to people and went with Ubuntu. In China, it sold out badly. I still don't know how much they pay Microsoft for GNU/Linux. But that's another story...Aug 27 21:43
schestowitzH-P is Microsoft's lapdog now. They want to stay on top and they need Microsoft's 'margin love'.Aug 27 21:44
PetoKrausfrankly enough, i don't wanna be bad butAug 27 21:44
schestowitzYou upset Microsoft a little, they raise the price of Microsoft a little (the prices are always top secret) and you're out of business. OEMs are very scared of this dependence on Microsoft. GNU/Linux is Switzerland status to them.Aug 27 21:45
PetoKrausthe machines dell offers right now at are not very good price/moneyAug 27 21:45
MinceRare there any pages about this price raising issue i could wave at m$ fanboys?Aug 27 21:46
schestowitz : Is Linux’s Marketshare Closer to 20% Or More?Aug 27 21:47
schestowitzI heard it before. 13%Aug 27 21:47
schestowitzRecycled PCs in developing countries and all... lots of them in China too.Aug 27 21:48
mib_gp0qvoHow can it be said what % of Linux is in use. I tried to log to the DNC to watch the latest videos but it refuse me but didn't tell me what OS I was usingAug 27 21:52
schestowitzIt's matter of making the point with exaggeration.  Last week: "There's a lot of Linux out there -- much more than Microsoft generally signals publicly -- and their customers are using it..."--Paul DeGroot, a Directions On Microsoft analyst.Aug 27 21:53
mib_gp0qvoOK english not first languageAug 27 21:53
schestowitzmib_3h4ih0: same here, that's not a problem.Aug 27 21:53
schestowitzTo measure use, other methods are needed.Aug 27 21:54
schestowitzGartner says it's 4% (on the desktop), but it's a Microsoft analyst.Aug 27 21:54
schestowitzGoogle's logs will suffers from things like Squid, forging, zombies, etc.Aug 27 21:54
schestowitz 27 21:55
mib_gp0qvosquid, zombies=MS machines?Aug 27 21:56
trmancoschestowitz, the mono fag commented againAug 27 21:57
trmancostill saying that java is no good :|Aug 27 21:57
schestowitzDana with another shot at RMS: (been provoking a lot lately)Aug 27 21:58
trmancothis time he posted a giant commentAug 27 21:58
MinceRwell, java does suckAug 27 21:58
schestowitztrmanco: [sarcasm /]copy and paste from his bosses at Remond.Aug 27 21:58
trmancodon't knowAug 27 21:59
trmancobut he insists that M$/Novell is a good thing when its notAug 27 21:59
schestowitzHe promotes Mono (Novell). Surprise, surprise. Novell and Microsoft brainwash some people. That's all right, so did SCO.Aug 27 22:02
trmancobut what pisses me off is that he is saying that java sucksAug 27 22:02
trmancoI didn't leave him a reply, someone else didAug 27 22:04
benJImanMinceR: In what way does java suck?Aug 27 22:05
MinceRit wastes memoryAug 27 22:06
benJImanlolAug 27 22:06
trmancohow much memory do you have?Aug 27 22:06
schestowitzNo more than most P/LsAug 27 22:06
MinceRif you want to store a primitive in a container, it has to be boxed in an object which adds lots of overheadAug 27 22:06
MinceRit doesn't give memory back to the OSAug 27 22:06
schestowitzI used to think the same thing.Aug 27 22:06
schestowitzMinceR: is C++ any better?Aug 27 22:07
MinceRyes it isAug 27 22:07
schestowitzNo garbage collection. mallacs with leaks...Aug 27 22:07
benJImanMinceR: Please.Aug 27 22:07
schestowitzIf badly designed anywayAug 27 22:07
schestowitzKDE is well designed, so I don't complainAug 27 22:07
MinceRjava apps tend to be horribly slow and to use lots of memoryAug 27 22:07
trmancoI love Azureus anyway :PAug 27 22:08
MinceRazureus is an extreme example of thatAug 27 22:08
trmancoyes it does eat up lots of memory bot it doesn't lack funtionalityAug 27 22:09
trmancofunctionality*Aug 27 22:09
MinceRit's ok if you can afford to set a computer aside for bittorrentAug 27 22:09
benJImanMinceR: Java applications are used by a huge proportion of businesses, handling hundreds of thousands of operations per second, and you're arguing it's slow?Aug 27 22:09
MinceRwindows is used by a huge proportion of businesses, handling hundreds of thousands of operations per secondAug 27 22:10
schestowitzJava is well ahead of everything.Aug 27 22:10
schestowitzBut it's used behind corporate firewalls, so to speak.Aug 27 22:10
benJImanJIT enables later and better optimisations than are possible with ahead of time compilation, memory management can even be faster with garbage collection.Aug 27 22:10
MinceRwe have yet to see those optimizationsAug 27 22:10
benJImanMinceR: Not at all true.Aug 27 22:11
MinceRand we have yet to see a JVM that gives memory back to the OSAug 27 22:11
MinceR(and thus is capable of coexisting with other processes in finite memory)Aug 27 22:11
benJImanMinceR: Go read some academic papers on this and stop basing your opinion on hearsay and anecdotesAug 27 22:11
MinceRpresent some facts on those optimizationsAug 27 22:12
MinceRi'll keep basing my opinion on experience and facts, thank-you-very-much.Aug 27 22:12
benJImanUsually people saying this sort of thing then go on to claim python and ruby are fast.Aug 27 22:12
MinceRat least python and ruby don't eat all my memoryAug 27 22:14
benJImanMinceR: My hotel wireless time is about to run out, but google java optimisations should find you some interesting stuff, particularly on google scholar. If you poke me in a couple of days when I'm back home I can link you to some excellent articles that explain some of the more interesting optimisations that the JIT does, and the differences to the .net one.Aug 27 22:16
MinceRi will, if i'll remember.Aug 27 22:18
MinceR(of course, giving memory back to the OS could be implemented but i'm not aware of any JVM that actually does it)Aug 27 22:22
schestowitzKeeps track of the heaps.Aug 27 22:24
schestowitzRelinquishing memory is slow though. Procrastinating the dirty job...Aug 27 22:24
MinceRi've read somewhere that procrastrinating freeing up objects to the heap is a common tactic tooAug 27 22:26
schestowitzI never touched VIsta, but I heard in USENET that it suffers a lot -- performance-wise- -- from bad garbage collection. It's not written in .NET BTWAug 27 22:29
schestowitzJust an XP tweak with a bloat of junk on the DVD and some fancy graphics, UAC, etc.Aug 27 22:29
MinceRnot even parts of it?Aug 27 22:33
schestowitzI'm not sure. But it was used against Microsoft in 2005 or 2006. They don't eat their dogfood.Aug 27 22:34
trmanco 27 22:54
trmanco 27 22:55
schestowitzOh, no... not that Byfield hypnosis again.Aug 27 22:56
schestowitzNovell, the price.Aug 27 22:56
schestowitz*prince.Aug 27 22:56
schestowitz"You're getting very sleepy.................."Aug 27 22:56
trmancohave you noticed the Microsoft ads on the site? :|Aug 27 22:58
schestowitzWhich one?Aug 27 23:00
trmancothis last linkAug 27 23:03
trmancothe one with microsoft and novellAug 27 23:03
schestowitzI used to write for them (I still do, e.g. ), but I stopped 2 months ago when the pages got filled with Microsoft ads. I can't stand it. When the ads are out, I'll resume.Aug 27 23:05
trmancowowAug 27 23:07
trmancoI didn't know that about you :|Aug 27 23:07
trmancowell I got 4 M$ ads from that linkAug 27 23:08
trmanco5*Aug 27 23:08
trmancowell all the ads are from them :|Aug 27 23:08
trmancothey target there ads for the linux keywordAug 27 23:08
schestowitzYes.Aug 27 23:08
schestowitzIt gets worse over time. The publisher 'sells outAug 27 23:09
schestowitzYou know what I'm gonna do? Over the next few days I'll report them in BN.comAug 27 23:10
schestowitzI'm allowed to do this after 6 months and this way I can take away the attention from the MS ad-filled pages.Aug 27 23:10
trmancogoodAug 27 23:11
schestowitzSome might be out of date, like my interview with Shuttleworth (sort of) about Gobuntu, which is now dead.Aug 27 23:12
schestowitzI still have a good interview with RMS and PJ.Aug 27 23:13
PetoKrauswhat are you allowed after 6 months?Aug 27 23:20
schestowitzYes, it's in the contract.Aug 27 23:22
schestowitzWhether they'll frown upon it is another thing.Aug 27 23:22
schestowitzIn case I run out of money, I don't want to ruin the job with them.Aug 27 23:23
*Tallken ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 27 23:26
PetoKrausanyway, gnAug 27 23:27
*Tallken has quit ("puffff")Aug 27 23:43
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Aug 27 23:44
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Aug 27 23:58
*trmanco ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 27 23:58

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