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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 1st, 2008

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ReverseGTRschestowitz: is the new news posted yet?Sep 01 00:14
schestowitzNo, not yet. Urgent? I could do it tonight or tomorrow. Your choice.Sep 01 00:15
ReverseGTRschestowitz: not really urgent, I was just wondering about the progressSep 01 00:15
schestowitzNo progress on it yet. It needs tidying up a bit. I then need to connect it to previous posts so that I needn't repeat old citations and arguments.Sep 01 00:16
twitterChecked out that attack link of yours and found this 01 00:49
schestowitzYes. He did these before...Sep 01 00:49
schestowitzGroklaw gives him the kick.Sep 01 00:49
schestowitzHe backed O'Gara and the spaying on PJ.Sep 01 00:50
twitterQuotes "Fucker T. Washington", obvious troll.Sep 01 00:50
schestowitzI'm off to bed now.Sep 01 00:50
twitternight nightSep 01 00:50
ReverseGTRcyaSep 01 00:50
schestowitzYes, a recist racist trollSep 01 00:50
schestowitz*racistSep 01 00:50
ReverseGTRand keep'em comingSep 01 00:50
ReverseGTRlol yea, hence why less folks will take that rant seriouslySep 01 00:51
ReverseGTRand what does he or she know about exposing misdeeds?Sep 01 00:51
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twitter:) Nice round up of astroturf groups.Sep 01 14:38
schestowitzOld news though; good for future referencing, e.g. when ACT comes up.Sep 01 14:40
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schestowitzFAA runs Windows. Check the latest: 01 15:10
schestowitzThe Snyder article has made Slashdot < >. Since the guy like to sling mud at Linux, I believe his hidden message in this case is that there's no money in GNU/Linux. It's a form of FUD, which he backs using studies from The 451 Group. The first comment is interesting too.Sep 01 15:28
schestowitzReader says "Microsoft Jack trashing Apple again": 01 15:32
twitterWindows is no longer mentioned in that FAA article.  Did you save the text?Sep 01 16:02
schestowitzWhich article?Sep 01 16:03
twitter 01 16:03
schestowitz 01 16:04
twitterNice work.Sep 01 16:06
schestowitzI did mine too: 01 16:06
schestowitzBTW, I'm separating these from large threads because Microsoft Munchkins hijack them and spread libel.Sep 01 16:06
trmanco 01 16:06
trmancothis one almost got meSep 01 16:06
schestowitzYeah, I gave up after the opening when I saw it hours ago.Sep 01 16:07
twitterPower just failed, battery won't last long, have to see you later ....Sep 01 16:10
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schestowitzBanter at the Inquirer. You can tell what to skip based on writers.Sep 01 16:11
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MinceRapparently Monkey Boy managed to buy the hungarian court system after allSep 01 17:08
MinceR(hu) 01 17:08
schestowitz:-( 01 17:09
schestowitz 01 17:09
schestowitzCan you translate a paragraph or two for me, please? I'll attribute.Sep 01 17:10
MinceRi don't know how to translates the names of the authorities involvedSep 01 17:10
MinceRs/tes/te/Sep 01 17:11
schestowitzIt can be a rough translation.Sep 01 17:11
schestowitzI just don't know what's happening here.Sep 01 17:11
schestowitzNothing in English, I think: 01 17:12
MinceRthe court of budapest decided it was legal to use the name of microsoft in the public procurement procedure in which they wanted to buy software for 25 million HUF even though a few days earlier the Economic Competition Office decided it was a violation of neutrality of competitionSep 01 17:15
MinceRthough this is apparently only a first instance decisionSep 01 17:16
schestowitzThanks.Sep 01 17:18
schestowitzI'll post about it.Sep 01 17:18
MinceRnpSep 01 17:23
schestowitzBear this in mind: ...Sep 01 17:25
schestowitz 01 17:26
schestowitz[Oh, scroll down to the bit abotu Hungary. PJ saw this too.]Sep 01 17:26
MinceRbblSep 01 17:32
PetoKraushaha, great!Sep 01 17:33
schestowitz Microsoft is using AstroTurfers that it hires via LawMedia Group (and possibly others) to attack this deal. Microsoft complains about "anti-competitive" (pot, kettle, black), privacy intrusion (pot, kettle, black) and it hires shills for a fact.Sep 01 17:55
MinceRreSep 01 17:57
schestowitzWhat does Microsoft call "fighting Linux"? "Fighting piracy". Watch this from the news: "But Ndung'u said that the corporation has developed a pricing structure for cyber cafés that requires them to pay US$10 per desktop annually. " The cafés have moved to GNU/Linux! There were many reports about it. Sep 01 18:01
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zoobabpongSep 01 18:33
schestowitzBrazil statement: 01 18:34
schestowitzChina patents (via Andy): vSep 01 18:35
schestowitz 01 18:35
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schestowitz "albeit reluctantly, re-evaluate our assessment of ISO/IEC,  particularly in its relevance to our various national government  interoperability frameworks."Sep 01 20:18
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seller_liarhelloSep 01 20:29
seller_liarsomeone please can help in this situation:Sep 01 20:30
schestowitzHey, seller_liar. I have news from BrazilSep 01 20:30
seller_liar 01 20:30
*schestowitz looksSep 01 20:30
seller_liarI see, thanks roySep 01 20:30
schestowitzIsn't the D language a Microsoft one?Sep 01 20:31
schestowitzVapourware...Sep 01 20:31
seller_liarreallySep 01 20:31
MinceRiirc it isn'tSep 01 20:31
schestowitzWait. I'll check to be sure.Sep 01 20:31
MinceRit's from Digital MarsSep 01 20:32
seller_liaryesSep 01 20:32
schestowitz 01 20:32
seller_liarexist a free gcc compiler,called gdcSep 01 20:32
schestowitz 01 20:32
schestowitzThat's what had me believe so. Let me reread it now.Sep 01 20:33
schestowitz"D will be a declarative language aimed at non-developers, and will be based on eXtensible Application Markup Language (XAML), sources, who asked not to be named, said."Sep 01 20:33
schestowitzBlech. Silverblightfish.Sep 01 20:33
seller_liarit's another dSep 01 20:33
seller_liaror notSep 01 20:33
schestowitzI'm not sure yet.Sep 01 20:34
seller_liarbecause D is a normal language , imperativeSep 01 20:35
schestowitz 01 20:35
schestowitzThat's what I thought. Is Microsoft, brandname-jacking? Well, with a single-letter names, that's likely.Sep 01 20:35
seller_liardigital mars = ms proxySep 01 20:36
schestowitz Sep 01 20:36
seller_liarThe D language is statically typed and compiles directly to machine code. It's multiparadigm, supporting many programming styles: imperative, object oriented, and metaprogrammingSep 01 20:36
seller_liarintro in digital mars isteSep 01 20:36
schestowitzIt looks like W32.Sep 01 20:36
seller_liar*siteSep 01 20:36
schestowitzLook at their Web siteSep 01 20:36
schestowitz. 01 20:37
schestowitzHmmm...Sep 01 20:37
schestowitzMaybe Microsoft just 'extends' it like it did with Java.Sep 01 20:37
seller_liarbut I do not know....Sep 01 20:38
schestowitzBen Slivka, Microsoft: "Don’t encourage new, cross-platform Java classes, especially don’t help get great Win 32 implementations written/deployed. [...] Do encourage fragmentation of the Java classlib space."Sep 01 20:38
seller_liarso digital mars  can be a ms proxySep 01 20:39
seller_liarjava competitorSep 01 20:39
seller_liarand about news in BrazilSep 01 20:40
schestowitzWhy use a proxy though?Sep 01 20:40
seller_liarwhatSep 01 20:40
schestowitzBrazil has some seniors wanting to give ISO (and Microsoft) the boot.Sep 01 20:40
schestowitz 01 20:41
schestowitzSmartsoft, LLC 88 Petersburg Road Petersburg NJ US 0827065.204.18.192FreeBSDApache/2.2.4 FreeBSD mod_ssl/2.2.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7e-p1 DAV/2 PHP/4.4.4 with Suhosin-Patch 1-Aug-2008Sep 01 20:41
seller_liarsmartsoftSep 01 20:42
MinceRi thought D was not interpreted and as such it was intended to be a competitor to C++, not JavaSep 01 20:43
seller_liarwhay minceSep 01 20:43
seller_liar*whySep 01 20:43
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_Doug_hi there ... computer nerds with no girlfriend .. :)Sep 01 20:44
MinceRbecause none of its descriptions have ever mentioned any interpretersSep 01 20:44
seller_liaryes,but c have a lot of object-oriented techSep 01 20:45
seller_liar*d hav a lot ,Sep 01 20:45
MinceRbenJIman: you said you'd refer me to some info on some currently implemented JIT optimizationsSep 01 20:46
benJImanAh yes.Sep 01 20:46
MinceRoh, one more reason: the D website keeps comparing it to C++Sep 01 20:49
seller_liarokSep 01 20:50
seller_liarbut, why d attacks c++, is just technical comparisionsSep 01 20:51
seller_liaror digital mars have more reasonsSep 01 20:51
seller_liarhey roy ,do you have some link about senior in brazilSep 01 20:54
schestowitzHey, _Doug_ Sep 01 20:55
schestowitz 01 20:56
benJImanMinceR: has some good overview of reasons for using JIT for performance. has some specific new and interesting optimisations added in java 6, obviously those are only the new ones. There's a shedload of academic papers on JVM optimisations I'm trying to find where I booSep 01 21:01
*MinceR didn't know java 6 was out already :)Sep 01 21:01
_Doug_Roy .. what ?Sep 01 21:02
seller_liarcacao does jit compilationSep 01 21:02
benJImanMinceR: 7 out in a few months.Sep 01 21:02
_Doug_Is jit compilation safe over the Internet ?Sep 01 21:05
seller_liarschestowitz: there are a company here called "rede Globo" , the most destructive company in BrazilSep 01 21:05
seller_liar_Doug_:I do not know doug,but is more fastSep 01 21:06
MinceRare there any benchmarks how JIT compares to native code with these optimizations?Sep 01 21:06
seller_liarschestowitz, globo has a lot of contracts with ms some time agoSep 01 21:06
schestowitzbenJIman: your mesage got truncated at "I'm trying to find where I boo"Sep 01 21:06
MinceRi see it as "...where I book"Sep 01 21:07
seller_liarMinceR:gcj does fast compilation in native, is very fastSep 01 21:07
benJIman... interesting explanation of optimistic optimisations in java.Sep 01 21:07
_Doug_seee ya'll later ..Sep 01 21:07
schestowitzseller_liar: got articles about it? Even in Portuguese?Sep 01 21:07
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MinceRapparently i was right about truncation on irc being impossible to predict.Sep 01 21:07
benJImanseller_liar: Native != faster.Sep 01 21:07
seller_liarschestowitz:waitSep 01 21:07
MinceRi'm still waiting to see proof of JIT having surpassed the performance of native code :>Sep 01 21:08
benJImanseller_liar: A JIT enables optimisations to be done later, while more information such as profiling is available, and to try optimisations and fall back to unoptimised version if assertions fial.Sep 01 21:08
schestowitzMinceR: it wasn't just me then. Pidgin was the cause at times (other people who use it)Sep 01 21:08
seller_liarbenJIman: I know ,but native is more fast ,gcj takes a lot of resources to compile, but gentoo users always say that is fastSep 01 21:08
seller_liarschestowitz:I knowSep 01 21:09
benJImanseller_liar: native is not faster.Sep 01 21:09
MinceRschestowitz: it's client-independent -- there's a limit on irc message length (512 bytes, iirc), and i suspected that includes at least a prefix the sending client can't really knowSep 01 21:09
benJImanseller_liar: When you compile ahead of time to native code you lose the possibility to do optimisations later.Sep 01 21:09
MinceR(plus iirc it varies depending on where the receiver is)Sep 01 21:09
seller_liarbenJIman:yesSep 01 21:10
benJImanseller_liar: So about the only thing you might gain on is startup time.Sep 01 21:10
MinceRso theoretically JIT can be faster than native code. we know thatSep 01 21:10
benJImanAnd in practice.Sep 01 21:10
MinceRwhere are the benchmarks to show that?Sep 01 21:10
seller_liarschestowitz: I will post globo articles after , I need to go , but see the movie " beyond citizen kane"Sep 01 21:13
schestowitzseller_liar: have fun. Thanls.Sep 01 21:14
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benJImanMinceR: If you google java benchmarks you will see hundreds, and as you can see you can show pretty much whatever you want with benchmarks depending on what you test.Sep 01 21:17
*MinceR shows that C is still faster then Java. :>Sep 01 21:17
benJImanIf you do microbenchmarks that test specific things that java's JIT optimises then it massively outperforms precompiled versions. If you do macrobenchmarks what are you actually testing? If you do complicated benchmarks have you implemented it the same way in both languages?Sep 01 21:18
MinceRit doesn't have to be implemented the same way -- it has to be implemented in the way that language works bestSep 01 21:19
MinceRand the benchmark should cover a wide spectrum of tasksSep 01 21:19
benJImanWell one of the most important things about a JIT is that the code doesn't have to be implemented in the way that is most performant.Sep 01 21:20
MinceRi'd assume a competent programmer aiming for performance in such a comparison.Sep 01 21:20
benJImanProgrammer writes idiomatic code, and let's the JIT worry about turning it into the fastest implementation.Sep 01 21:20
MinceR(since that's how we aim for performance and that's what we're testing)Sep 01 21:21
benJImanWriting for performance will just bite you in the arse when the next version comes along and someone else's idiomatic code outperforms your performance hacks thanks to JIT improvements.Sep 01 21:21
schestowitzSame in MATLAB ('on-line' optimisations).Sep 01 21:21
MinceRi'm still waiting for that next version.Sep 01 21:21
MinceRthat's my whole point.Sep 01 21:21
schestowitzOk, I'll do a post about swpats last. I have other posts. :-)Sep 01 21:22
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trmanco 01 22:39
trmanco 01 22:49
schestowitzThanks.Sep 01 22:54
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