Bonum Certa Men Certa

The LLM Ouroboros Phenomenon

posted by Roy Schestowitz on May 19, 2025,
updated May 19, 2025

An ouroboros in a 1478 drawing in an alchemical tract

Ancient Greek mythology came up with this concept of an ouroboros, wherein some animal - typically a snake for a feasible "IRL" (in real life) metaphor - eats itself by eating its own tail. We would not be the first to point out the analogy here for LLMs because an ouroboros is a good parable. This morning we catalogued two BSD and Linux sites complaining about desperate LLM scrapers staging a DDoS attack in pursuit of original, as in human-written, code or words. This isn't a new problem for us and in the past few days we served about half a million pages in Gemini Protocol, likely due to to LLM scrapers. It's obnoxious to say the least, but distinguishing benign from malicious (or worthless junk) requests is hard and a "moving target" (it's never enough as parasites learn to adapt).

This morning in IRC we made an assertion about LLMs and fake (slop) images. We also made several observations. Fact #1: over time slop gets worse (training set is like some blurry JPEG). Fact #2: People's "smell" for slop improves over time, as they 'train' on slop and can detect it based on prior encounters. Put 1 and 2 together.

Are LLMs bound to not only get worse but also more easily detectable by an increasingly sceptical general public? TheLayoff.com has just responded to this.

An associate opines that fact #1 (that slop gets worse over time) is exacerbated by the flood of slop on the Net being snarfed up by newer bots and mistaken for training data. "Thus the feedback loop I mentioned a long time back and which Andy wrote about in depth." (He was referring to Dr. Farnell's good writings about this dilemma - as he did several times in The CyberShow's blog)

To a certain extent my Ph.D. thesis (dissertation) covered this about two decades ago. The associate says that it's a "well-known problem from days of old".

There are several unique aspects to this, including validation bias. To me it seemed a bit related to but not the same as over-training because, as an associate explains, "overtraining is something else: too much data and the patterns become locked too tightly to the training set and less useful for new data".

For an LLM to scan online its own output serves to affirm the mistakes, or the errors, often euphemised as mere "hallucinations", which are innocent, not libellous, and by no means "intentional" and "harmful". Dr. Farnell and Dr. Kate Brown responded to this last October in "Radical disbelief and its causes".

In the context of my thesis (dissertation), a concern was raised about what we back then called "synthetic data" finding its way "back" into the training set. So when you check brain MRI scans (which is what we did back then) you must ensure you only ever deal with real data, not mock or manipulated data that can confirm your own biases and "fit into" the model that generated it in the first place (in generative mode). To use the analogy of text-based LLMs, your BS is "truth" if your input is your own BS (output/s) and it would be deemed accurate, based on you (opposite of the notion of peer review in science). The associate correctly points out, based on a scan of my thesis (dissertation), that the strings "overtraining" and "over-training" are not in the dissertation, but we used different terms back then.

A squat toilet (also known as an Eastern, Turkish, Iranian or Natural-Position toilet). This one is in Turkey

"An LLM Ouroboros of shit", as the associate dubs it, would be statistical models (such as PDMs or AAMs*) treating computer-generated images as something from "the real world".

The so-called "generative hey hi" (genAI) "bros" won't allow the media to talk about such issues, at least if they can downplay the issues and deny/misportray them (in the media). But it's a real and growing problem. Its magnitude likely grows quadratically, not linearly. Just like other bubbles (overabundance based around hype), don't expect linear implosions. When it's gone (poof!), it's gone.

____

* PDM and AAM need expansion in the explanatory sense, not just words (in the acronyms). PDMs go back several decades ago they were invented or pioneered by the people who tutored me. They use mathematical, statistical models to perform multidimensional analysis of data variations, based upon principal component analysis (PCA). AAMs are an extension but with textures, not only points. This is really old stuff; even AAMs are over 23 years old; now the mainstream media pretends those are some kind of "revolution".

Other Recent Techrights' Posts

Father of XBox Says What Microsoft Does Not Want to Hear About XBox (They All Know It's Dead)
Microsoft just worried shareholders will find out Sharma is "just a face" and an undertaker
France Needs to Focus on Software Freedom, Not Flags
We need more SIP advocacy!
Combatting Censorship in the "Civilised World": The Media Blackout Surrounding EPO Strikes and Other Large-Scale Actions
We - collectively speaking - cannot afford to keep the Office in the hands of a "Mafia"
EPO Strike Actions and Other Industrial Actions Are Effective When Management Fears the Staff and Staff No Longer Fears Any Managers
'António the unready' should get ready to be ousted
IBM Did Not Fall Because of COBOL Vapourware, IBM Still Collapses Because It's Worthless, Way Overvalued, and Very Likely Cooks the Books
language-to-language conversion (in the context of programming) is nothing new
 
IBM (and Red Hat) Can Disappear in the Coming Years, Along With Kyndryl (Debt Twice as Big as Its 'Worth')
No wonder Red Hat workers tell us they hate IBM
Software Freedom is Science, But It Also Sustains Life
In some sense, Software Freedom can be explained in the context of nourishing people
“Xbox, like a lot of businesses that aren’t the core AI business, is being sunsetted."
There has been a lot of narrative control lately, including at 9PM on a Friday
3,300 Capsules Known to Lupa and Currently Accessible
Gemini Protocol turns 7 this summer
When it Comes to Firmware, the FSF and Its Founder RMS Won the Argument (But Not the Fight, Yet)
The "whataboutism" tactics are physiological manipulation means of discouraging those who move in the correct direction
Austria Tackles Digital Weapon Disguised as "Social" and/or "Media"
Are we seeing the end days of Social Control Media?
Nothing Over the Horizon for XBox
XBox is not even being sold in many places anymore
Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) Contradicting Itself: You Can Use Slop to Cheat Clients, But You Can Also Face Disciplinary Actions Over Slop
Where does the SRA stand on the matter?
In Praise of Eben Moglen
Hopefully Professor Moglen will be with us for many decades to come and become an active speaker on issues such as Software Freedom
Sunsetting IBM (for the Benefit of Few Corrupt Officials and Wall Street Speculators)
IBM will not (and cannot) survive for much longer [...] The issue is bad leadership, not any particular nationality/race
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, February 24, 2026
IRC logs for Tuesday, February 24, 2026
Gemini Links 25/02/2026: Rise of Solar in 2025 and Smallnet Protocols
Links for the day
HR Blunder at IBM or IBM Struggling With Money?
Weird for such an allegedly rich company to be so stingy
Gemini Links 24/02/2026: x86 Computer In-Browser and Administration
Links for the day
Envy is the #1 Enemy of Richard Stallman
Whenever you see someone mocking Richard Stallman, ask yourself: does this person have a reason to be jealous of Richard Stallman?
Life is Sweeter When Less Means More
People need to think "small", not "big" (as in capital)
Championing a Cause
Probably over 100 million GNU/Linux users on laptops/desktops
Balmoral rape cult & Debian suicide cluster indifference, community
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Can Much Longer Can the Financial 'Press' (Pump-n-Dump Megaphone) Cheer for IBM's Accounting Enigma?
IBM has fallen almost 25%
Religious or Not, Consider Quitting Social Control Networks (All of Them) This Season
Lent is a good time to quit addiction such as social control media
Liberating the Self From the Invisible Prison of Plutocrats-Controlled Media and Social Control Media
Can you always see the full picture or does something (someone powerful) obstruct it?
Links 24/02/2026: Drug Cartel Decapitated, Jeffrey Epstein-Connected 'Linux' Foundation Promotes Slop and Buzzwords at MWC Barcelona 2026
Links for the day
2023: Layoffs Are Because of "AI". 2024: Shares Up Owing to "AI". 2025: Shares Recently Fell Due to "AI". 2026 Forbes (Paid by IBM): Shares Falling is Good!
"AI" is smoke and mirrors
Bitcoin: Code of Conduct stifled open source concerns
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Slop Boosters and 'Hype Agents' Render Themselves Irrelevant and the General Public Becomes Incredulous Due to "Bros Who Cry Wolf!"
It won't age well
"Half-baked Vibe Code Shipped Full of Errors"
Seems timely after our latest article
Links 24/02/2026: Copyright Litigation Over Anne Frank’s Diary, "Arrogance of Developers"
Links for the day
Another New Low for Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA): Authorising Slop Disguised as "Legal Advice"
SRA is a lapdog - not a watchdog - of the "litigation industry"
EPO "Cocaine Communication Manager" - Part IV - "Many Jobs Were Given to Spanish Employees for No Related Skills At All"
The EPO's fate might be similar to that of the XBox
Gemini Links 24/02/2026: Hardware Tinkering and Slop Bots Attacking the "Small Web"
Links for the day
Quitting Reddit (Social Control Media Controlled by Conde Nast)
There is a new post in Reddit
IBM is the World Champion at Layoffs and There Are Reportedly More Layoffs in IBM This Month (EU)
IBM fired 60,000 in 1993
Free Software is for Everyone
Young and old, rich and poor etc.
Gemini Links 24/02/2026: Voltage Divider on Slide Rule and Many Raspberry Pi Projects
Links for the day
Links 24/02/2026: Telephone Turns 150, Political News Catchup, and Rearmament
Links for the day
Asha Sharma "a Palliative Care Doctor Who Slides Xbox Gently Into the Night"
2026 will probably be the last year of XBox
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Monday, February 23, 2026
IRC logs for Monday, February 23, 2026
Probably IBM's Worst Day in Wall Street in Well Over a Decade
They try to blame some Anthropic slop, but that's just a distraction from IBM having nothing to offer
The Monday After the 9PM-on-Friday Prepared Puff Pieces-Under-Embargo Microsoft Strategy for XBox Collapse
There are more layoffs ahead at Microsoft's XBox
Kyndryl Also in a Freefall Today, James Kavanaugh's Accounting Skills Seem to be Based on Pumping and Dumping
What is the real value of Kyndryl when its debt is about twice its alleged "worth"?
Not Much Left to "Pump" in This Slop Bubble
let's hope that by the end of the year the whole bubble fully implodes
IBM Common Stock Crashes Hard (Almost $100 Below the Levels of February's Beginning)
Another Kyndryl?
Links 23/02/2026: Withdrawal From Slop and Ukraine Invasion Enters Fifth Year
Links for the day
Gemini Links 23/02/2026: Moving to Gentoo, Wake-on-LAN Script
Links for the day
Kyndryl Fell by About 50% in One Day, IBM Fell 23% in 20 Days
the IBM Titanic
Security and blobs, by Alex Oliva (GNU Linux-Libre)
Reprinted with permission from Alex Oliva
Trusting the Evil Maids
Don't listen to liars and frauds
Aaron Swartz Has Already Explained What Reddit/Conde Nast Meant to Him and Why We Should All Avoid Reddit If We Value Software Freedom
Aaron Swartz did not start Reddit
Valnet's Good Legacy of GNU/Linux Advocacy in Journalism Form
Let's hope they carry on like this
Techrights Thanks Every Single EPO Worker Who Went on Strike Today
We have so much in common
Coders and Thinkers
I used to be a hyper-productive coder; these days I do more thinking and writing
Slop (So-called 'genAI') is Not a Skill, Slop Gets You Suspended or Even Sacked, It Can Eventually End Your Career
Benj Edwards, a so-called 'Senior' so-called 'AI' so-called 'Reporter'
There is No Such Thing as "AI Skills", "AI Competency", "AI Fluency" Etc.
Slop does not give anybody an advantage
EPO Staff Union: The Strike Actions and Other Industrial Actions "Have Already Delivered Measurable Gains."
SUEPO Munich has just issued a statement to staff
Links 23/02/2026: "What Boston Will Cost Me" and Women as Hostages
Links for the day
IRC Usage Levels Seem to be Rebounding This Year
it looks like the total count (tally) of users increased a lot lately
Microsoft Tricked the Media Into Lying About Microsoft Layoffs in January. Now It Does the Same (in February).
Microsoft has got the media by the wallet (or balls)
Free Software Projects Become Slow Due to Slop
It does not improve efficiency or productivity, it reduces both
EPO Strike Has Begun (or Resumed)
The EPO status quo is untenable
Links 23/02/2026: US Surrenders to Climate Change (to Benefit Oil Companies and Slop), UK Court of Appeal to Hear Mazur
Links for the day
GAFAM Jobs No Longer Lucrative
Those days are long gone
Based on Insider Leaks, Asha Sharma's Job is to Kill XBox While Talking About "AI"
They cite SneakerSO
Germans Recognise the Contagion is Digital, Not Racial
How to dismantle or neutralise those weapons? Turn them off
Free Software (or Software Freedom) Ain't No Religion
It's hardly surprising that some of the loudest opponents of Software Freedom and its luminaries also disregard or bend facts
Dr. Andy Farnell Explains Why the Slop Industry is Like Trespassers and Thieves
interesting new article about robots.txt files
The Demise of the Solicitors Regulation Authority (SRA) and Profession Based Around Bullying With SLAPPs and Empty Threats
For press to survive and thrive in the UK we need the hired gun to be submerged
Linux Kernel 7.0 Release Candidate Comes Out, Stallman Turns 73 in Three Weeks
It predates Microsoft and Apple
In Greenland, Firefox's Gecko and KHTML (KDE, But Bastardised by Apple) Bigger Than Chrome
Are those Danes recognising the risk of monoculture?
Gemini Links 23/02/2026: Imperfect Journal, Evil, and "Progress Goes Boing!"
Links for the day
“Power is a Thing of Perception. They Don't Need to be Able to Kill You. They Just Need You to Think They are Able to Kill You” ― Julian Assange
When leadership becomes corrupt enough to lose a sense of authority its days are numbered; it'll be replaced
IBM Has Already Admitted 2026 Mass Layoffs (in 4Q Earnings Call)
We showed this earlier this month, but some people bring that up again
Reasons to Go on Strike in the European Patent Office (EPO)
If you live in Europe and don't work for the EPO, you can still help
First speech of Chanellor Hitler, Andreas Tille & Debian denounce Branden Robinson
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, February 22, 2026
IRC logs for Sunday, February 22, 2026