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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 8th, 2009 - Part 1

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*mib_31gt4h (i=47b4d804@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8966bacf11d42bba) has joined #boycottnovellApr 08 00:02
mib_31gt4hlinuxApr 08 00:02
mib_31gt4hthe bestApr 08 00:03
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Balrog_??????Apr 08 00:08
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balzac??Apr 08 00:44
Balrog_I'm referring to mib_31gt4hApr 08 00:49
Balrog_schestowitz: http://entertainment.slashdot.org/artic...Apr 08 00:57
Balrog_major league baseball dumps silver light for flashApr 08 00:57
Balrog_not the best, but at least no more of that sl :(Apr 08 00:57
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_Hicham_Hi !Apr 08 01:08
_Hicham_Anyone in here?Apr 08 01:08
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balzacI left a stinging comment on fsdaily.comApr 08 03:00
balzachttp://www.fsdaily.com/Industry/Three_...Apr 08 03:00
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SenorMig29I guess it goes without saying that Roy will be commenting on the /. posting about Monolight and Major League Baseball websiteApr 08 03:03
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Ziggyfishgood afternoon allApr 08 03:19
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oiaohm_I see the fall out from attacking tomtom is starting.Apr 08 03:34
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Ziggyfishoiaohm_, ???Apr 08 03:47
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oiaohm_More people are concidering if they should stay using .net and fat bacause of it Ziggyfish.Apr 08 03:49
Ziggyfishoh, okApr 08 03:49
Ziggyfishthat's good newsApr 08 03:50
oiaohm_http://www.microsoft-watch.com/c...  Truth lies and stasticicsApr 08 03:52
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twitter:) Greetings from Bill Gate's back yard, comrades!Apr 08 03:58
twitterI know, it's late.Apr 08 03:59
oiaohm_Pitty bill gates is not the head of MS any more or I would be suggesting land mining his backyard.Apr 08 04:05
Ziggyfishoiaohm_, why not?Apr 08 04:08
Ziggyfish:PApr 08 04:19
twitterCan't get justice from a dead man.Apr 08 04:20
twitterBetter to strip him of his ill gotten loot than to do something cruel.Apr 08 04:20
Ziggyfishwhy not do bothApr 08 04:22
oiaohm_Who said the land mines have to be killing versions.Apr 08 04:23
oiaohm_Something nasty but not leathal.Apr 08 04:24
oiaohm_Worst part about land mines is worring about where they are.Apr 08 04:25
oiaohm_Not the killing bit.Apr 08 04:25
oiaohm_http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/5/197  << Ok this is a really what the Linux bug.Apr 08 04:36
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twitterThis place is corporate dominated.Apr 08 04:56
twitterWorse than most places.Apr 08 04:57
twitterAnd get this .... twitter thinks people here are extremely confrontational.Apr 08 04:57
twitterThey say the craziest things.  It explains a lot of Steve Ballmer's act.  It's just how people are here.Apr 08 04:58
oiaohm_Ok so the place needs to be shaken up.Apr 08 05:04
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twitterOh, they are having quite a little shake up.  Wamu, M$ and other giants they trusted are leaving them screwed.Apr 08 05:11
twitterThe one night stand wakes up sore, oh my.Apr 08 05:11
schestowitzYEah,Apr 08 05:26
schestowitz"One night stand"Apr 08 05:26
schestowitzSee James P transcript on MS evangelismApr 08 05:26
tessierWho is this?Apr 08 05:26
schestowitzLet me get it..Apr 08 05:26
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/08...Apr 08 05:27
twitterHi Roy!Apr 08 05:29
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twittergood nightApr 08 05:40
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schestowitzAnimal rights group protests seal clubbing in World of Warcraft < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0... >Apr 08 05:45
schestowitzhttp://www.prwatch.org/node/8321 "The Canadian province of Alberta, which promotes the development of its tar sands oil, "has hired a team of consultants to improve [its] image in Washington ahead of climate-change talks." The lobbyists, who Alberta is paying $40,000 a month, include former Michigan governor James Blanchard and former U.S. ambassador and Canadian diplomat Paul Fraser."Apr 08 05:52
NeonFlosswe all hate that provinceApr 08 06:33
NeonFloss:pApr 08 06:33
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schestowitzCitrix (+MSFT) poisons DMTF  http://www.tradingmarkets.com/...Apr 08 06:38
schestowitzSilly Wintel press cites Didiot http://www.newsfactor.com/news/Texas-Tells...Apr 08 06:49
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schestowitzhttp://techdirt.com/articles/2009... (Keep It Simple, Segway -- Don't Team Up With GM)Apr 08 07:09
schestowitz"A banker in Texas who basically stopped taking on any new loans for years as he thought things were going out of control. In fact, he barely worked at all -- stopping by just a few hours a day, playing board games with his staff, and even laying off about half of his employees."Apr 08 07:11
schestowitz"He did this while waiting for the market to collapse, knowing that things were way out of control. In return, he got investigated by regulators, who couldn't understand why he wasn't joining in the fun. " http://techdirt.com/articles/200...Apr 08 07:11
schestowitzSJVN's pessimism neglects the fact that opponents of GNU/Linux are weakening and the platform grows in developing nations... http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_desktop_neglectApr 08 07:29
schestowitzChina will not follow if US commits to deep CO2 cuts: official < http://www.platts.com/Natural%20Gas/News/8... >Apr 08 07:30
schestowitzI'm going to write about that Silver Lie failure of Microsoft, maybe today. Don't know where to fit it yet...Apr 08 07:31
schestowitzWho would pay for this/ http://www.linuxpr.com/rel...Apr 08 07:43
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schestowitzAccording to this < http://timescorrespondents.typepad.com/charl... >, if your kid downloads a song, the whole family could be banned from the Net.Apr 08 08:02
schestowitzEffect of kickbacks? "I Want an Android Netbook, and I Want It With the Windows Version's Specs" < http://ostatic.com/blog/i-want-an-... >Apr 08 08:05
schestowitz"A group of newspaper CEOs is planning a hush-hush meeting this week outside an industry convention. First, they'll have a barely-legal chat about all charging for online content...." < http://gawker.com/5199886/a-big-sec... >Apr 08 08:05
PetoKrausschestowitz: yeah, the ostatic article is quite spot-onApr 08 08:08
schestowitzI think Dell has similar screwupsApr 08 08:10
schestowitzApple and the MAFIAA jack up the prices: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?...Apr 08 08:16
PetoKrauseverything is going up the priceApr 08 08:17
PetoKrausi was buying a bike last week, cause my old one was stolenApr 08 08:17
schestowitzThat's another thing: crimeApr 08 08:18
PetoKrausthe some company's entry level model is €£50 more expensive (well, €£100 for me, i got a deal last year)Apr 08 08:18
PetoKrausand the components are WORSE than 2008 modelsApr 08 08:18
schestowitzHow did it get stolen?Apr 08 08:18
schestowitzNo chain?Apr 08 08:18
PetoKrausi had it locked with an U lock in the close of my flatApr 08 08:18
PetoKrausand they whacked the railing it was attached toApr 08 08:19
PetoKrausmost probably with the lockApr 08 08:19
PetoKrausit's "organized crime"Apr 08 08:19
PetoKrausduring that week, 2 other bikes were stolen from the same streetApr 08 08:19
PetoKrausit took them 90 minutes - i came home at 2pm, and when i left at 3.30 it wasn't there.Apr 08 08:19
PetoKrauswell well.Apr 08 08:20
schestowitzSo up to 90 minsApr 08 08:20
PetoKrausyeahApr 08 08:20
PetoKrausi mean, they must've been waiting for me coming homeApr 08 08:20
PetoKrausanyway, i'm getting the new one insured, and I'm locking it IN the flat this timeApr 08 08:21
schestowitzI had stuff stolen in 2003, but never afterApr 08 08:22
schestowitzhttp://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/04... KDE on copyrights... now that Microsoft lawyers spread lies about it, re: GPLApr 08 08:22
schestowitzAnti-FOSS from MS lawyers: http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechn...Apr 08 08:23
PetoKrauswell, this is the first thing I got stolen in what, 8 yearsApr 08 08:23
PetoKrausapart fromApr 08 08:24
PetoKrausstealing musicApr 08 08:24
PetoKrausstealing videosApr 08 08:24
PetoKrausetcApr 08 08:24
PetoKraus:PApr 08 08:24
schestowitzMS comes to the realisation that Windows is a scalability nightmare? http://blogs.zdnet.com/micr...Apr 08 08:25
schestowitzSome guy installed the Novell virus and uploaded a clip to YouTube just now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkPAo_lJAV8Apr 08 08:27
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schestowitzMark Taylor shows in nice graphs the effects of moving to Free software < http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/ar... >Apr 08 08:39
schestowitzFirefox gains a feature that I regularly use in Konqueror: http://www.pcworld.com/article/1626...Apr 08 08:40
schestowitzBill Beebe comes back to GNU/Linux. http://blogbeebe.blogspot.co... "And it's amazing. Everything. Just. Bloody. Works. Everything."Apr 08 08:42
schestowitzPlateSpin made some headlines for Novell when it was acquired, but if you look closely, many of its chief people quit Novell (at least 3 I can think of) and the company's product does not appear to have even gained much traction.Apr 08 08:44
schestowitzNovell is like Microsoft... when it buys something it just ruins it.Apr 08 08:45
schestowitzHigh uptime=bad. "this means a little over 3 years (like February 2006)… Wow… I said to myself: the old sysadmin didn’t care about kernel updates (@2.6.15). I said… hmm… maybe he was doing application upgrades at least; looking at mysql (@4.1.15 btw) this was up for 1043 days and 11:52 hrs."Apr 08 08:50
schestowitz"Should I be impressed? or disappointed about a poor job and lack of interest in system maintenance and upgrades from the previous admin? I was disappointed of course…" http://www.ducea.com/2009/04/07/do...Apr 08 08:50
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schestowitzZune not dead just yet... http://www.paidcontent.org/entry...Apr 08 08:58
schestowitzBlockbuster might be going bankrupt: http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-blo...Apr 08 09:00
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PetoKrausfirefox under linux could use some PGOApr 08 09:23
MinceRj0Apr 08 09:24
EruaranhelloApr 08 09:26
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PeterKrausoh well, wireless routersApr 08 09:51
schestowitzLinux on your wrist: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news...Apr 08 09:51
PeterKrausneed restart like every other dayApr 08 09:51
MinceRmine doesn'tApr 08 09:54
PeterKrausi get 400ms ping just to the routerApr 08 09:57
PeterKrausocassionallyApr 08 09:57
PeterKrausafter 3-4 days or soApr 08 09:57
PeterKrausit's supposed to be a good one - Netgear RangemaxApr 08 09:58
PeterKrausi must have bad luckApr 08 09:58
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schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watc... ..Apr 08 10:39
oiaohmLooks like another month of panic Nvidia driver releases for Linux.Apr 08 10:41
oiaohmIt feels like Nvidia is desperatly searching for some feature that users cannot get else where so they can hold onto there binary driver.Apr 08 10:42
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_Hicham_Hi oiaohm!Apr 08 10:45
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Apr 08 10:45
_Hicham_what r u up today?Apr 08 10:46
oiaohmIts after work _Hicham_Apr 08 10:47
_Hicham_u don't work at home?Apr 08 10:51
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PeterKrausone would think that black trousers would be quite hard to get dirtyApr 08 11:16
PeterKrauswell wellApr 08 11:16
PeterKrausoiaohm: or they are, literally, releasing after every commit :PApr 08 11:17
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trmancoMicrosoft's Patent War Against Linux: TomTom Settles, Linux Loses: http://www.linuxplanet.com/lin...Apr 08 11:29
PeterKrausyou have to be joking: http://online.wsj.com/articl...Apr 08 11:30
PeterKraus1) what idiot would connect the power grid PC network to the internet?Apr 08 11:30
PeterKraus2) yeah yeah, penetration, spies, blablablaApr 08 11:30
trmancobullshitApr 08 11:31
PeterKrausi'd say soApr 08 11:31
trmancoblame the Chinese and the Russians, it's always like thisApr 08 11:31
PeterKrausyeahApr 08 11:32
PeterKrausbut i'm wonderingApr 08 11:32
PeterKraushaving vital functions of nuclear plant on machine which is connected to the internetApr 08 11:32
PeterKrausthat's asking for troubleApr 08 11:32
PeterKrausand I don't believe someone would do it.Apr 08 11:32
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trmancothere are people in the world to do these kind of crazy thingsApr 08 11:35
PeterKrausi know a person who'd do itApr 08 11:36
PeterKrausand didn't have a problem with thatApr 08 11:36
trmancohttp://www.stefanoforenza.com/tomboy...Apr 08 11:36
PeterKrausanywayApr 08 11:37
PeterKrausttylApr 08 11:37
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trmancolaterApr 08 11:37
oiaohmBlack trouser + whiite chalk mess.Apr 08 11:46
DaemonFCthese Ubuntu kernels are just getting worse and worseApr 08 11:46
DaemonFCI compile my own and all the bugs go awayApr 08 11:46
DaemonFC:PApr 08 11:46
trmancoI haven't had a problem with Ubuntu kernels yetApr 08 11:49
DaemonFCdo yourself a favor and don't look at their configApr 08 11:49
DaemonFCthe deeper you go the worse it getsApr 08 11:50
DaemonFCyou can easily spend half an hour or more correcting their settingsApr 08 11:50
trmanconever lookedApr 08 11:51
DaemonFCThey have it trying to be a desktop, laptop, and server kernel all at onceApr 08 11:52
trmancoI don't bother looking because as long as it works, it's not a problemApr 08 11:52
DaemonFCwith generic compiler settingsApr 08 11:52
DaemonFCwhere everything possible is flipped on by defaultApr 08 11:52
trmancoheheApr 08 11:52
DaemonFCoh, and they don't select the Minstrel rate control algorithmApr 08 11:53
DaemonFCso your 54M wifi adapter could be a 1M wifi adapter even if you're 5 feet from the routerApr 08 11:54
DaemonFCB-)Apr 08 11:54
trmancoon what kernel version?Apr 08 11:54
DaemonFC2.6.28 basedApr 08 11:55
DaemonFChard to tell, because they patch it with things that were never even meant to be put in 2.6.28Apr 08 11:55
trmancotrueApr 08 11:55
DaemonFCthey even managed to snag a few from the 2.6.30 development branch!!!Apr 08 11:55
DaemonFChehApr 08 11:56
DaemonFCUsually they try to solve one problem, create 5 more, and then invalidate all your bug reportsApr 08 11:56
DaemonFCcause it works for themApr 08 11:56
oiaohmThat would be the patches they recently put forward to be merged.Apr 08 11:56
oiaohmBeware Ubuntu does have a few kernel patchs that are not in any branch.Apr 08 11:57
DaemonFCit's easier to use official kernel sourceApr 08 11:57
DaemonFCand build your ownApr 08 11:57
DaemonFCbut they've screwed something in Ubuntu upApr 08 11:58
DaemonFCcause the 2.6.30 rc1 won't even bootApr 08 11:58
DaemonFCit says init has been tainted then freezesApr 08 11:58
DaemonFCfor some reason, they put a patch in 2.6.29 that makes xfs_fsr freak outApr 08 12:02
DaemonFCapparently it works now in 2.6.30 rc1 but that won't boot :PApr 08 12:02
DaemonFCI'll just wait patientlyApr 08 12:02
trmancohttp://www.gizmodo.com.au/2009/04/log...Apr 08 12:03
oiaohmYes you have to replace init to use generic on Ubuntu.Apr 08 12:04
oiaohmDoes a non standard syscall.Apr 08 12:04
oiaohmUbuntu is very quickly becoming not Linux.Apr 08 12:05
DaemonFCno, it just stopped working at 2.6.29-git13Apr 08 12:07
DaemonFCany kernel before that will bootApr 08 12:07
DaemonFCit's probably a kernel bugApr 08 12:08
DaemonFCit's usually better to just ride out a kernel version til they don't support it anymore then move to the oldest one they supportApr 08 12:09
DaemonFC2.6.29 is still incredibly buggyApr 08 12:09
DaemonFCthe new xfs_fsr problems are caused by a patch in 2.6.29 that requires a new version of xfsprogsApr 08 12:10
DaemonFCI could probably be clever and just steal them from Debian SidApr 08 12:11
schestowitztrmanco: thanks, already in BNApr 08 12:12
DaemonFCit's a shame that XFS has had such a cold receptionApr 08 12:13
DaemonFCeveryone is marvelling at the wonderful new features in Ext4 that have been in XFS for the last 15 yearsApr 08 12:13
MinceRsuch as random data corruption?Apr 08 12:13
DaemonFConly if you're an idiotApr 08 12:14
DaemonFCor turn barriers offApr 08 12:14
DaemonFCsee first commentApr 08 12:14
DaemonFCthe problem with data corruption in Ext4 is not an Ext4 bugApr 08 12:14
DaemonFCExt4 never got the data because it was never REQUESTED to be committed to the diskApr 08 12:15
DaemonFCby some criminally stupid people at GNOME/KDE etcApr 08 12:15
MinceRor you get a power outageApr 08 12:15
MinceRor your graphics driver hangs xApr 08 12:15
DaemonFCno, you don't understand how this is supposed to workApr 08 12:15
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MinceRnobody doesApr 08 12:15
DaemonFCExt3 has the same "problem"Apr 08 12:15
DaemonFCit just hides itApr 08 12:16
MinceRall that matters is that POSIX doesn't say that data shouldn't be randomly destroyed, so this is compliant behaviorApr 08 12:16
DaemonFCIf nothing requests data committed, Ext3 does it every 5 seconds anywayApr 08 12:16
MinceRyes, ext3 hides the problem by not trashing my dataApr 08 12:16
MinceRhow bad it is for me!Apr 08 12:16
DaemonFCExt3 is hacking its way around an application problemApr 08 12:16
DaemonFCthat has nothing to do with the file systemApr 08 12:16
oiaohmEver used nilfsApr 08 12:16
DaemonFCand has trained programmers to be lazy, sloppy idiotsApr 08 12:16
DaemonFCMinceR: It slows the file system down considerably, and the point is that there is an ioctl to request data be comnmittedApr 08 12:17
DaemonFCand bad apps don't use thatApr 08 12:17
DaemonFCthey rely on Ext3's bad/incorrect behaviorApr 08 12:17
MinceRit has trained programmers in the past before it even existedApr 08 12:18
MinceRit's that bad!Apr 08 12:18
DaemonFCReally the entire way KDE and GNOME store settings is pretty fucking stupidApr 08 12:18
MinceRbecause it doesn't use a registry? :>Apr 08 12:18
oiaohmnilfs copes quite well with KDE and Gnome stupidity.Apr 08 12:18
DaemonFCtons of little bitty files that are constantly being written toApr 08 12:18
MinceRconstantly? really?Apr 08 12:19
DaemonFCfrankly GNOME and KDE are both a pile of shitApr 08 12:19
DaemonFCit's jsut that KDE is worseApr 08 12:19
oiaohmIts not constant.Apr 08 12:19
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MinceRit's just that neither are a pile of shit and kde is better.Apr 08 12:19
MinceRbut you're trying to defend crap filesystems that kill data.Apr 08 12:19
DaemonFCMinceR: When you have a SET of files for every programApr 08 12:20
oiaohmnilfs is a snapshoting filessytem.Apr 08 12:20
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DaemonFCwhere any one of them, probably most are not committed to disk at any timeApr 08 12:20
oiaohmSnapshotting is really the cure.Apr 08 12:20
DaemonFCyou're asking for data corruptionApr 08 12:20
MinceRand i'm not getting itApr 08 12:20
MinceRi suffer so muchApr 08 12:20
oiaohmRegistry under windows can completely cease to exist.Apr 08 12:20
DaemonFCExt3 still has a 5 second windowApr 08 12:20
MinceRwindows can completely cease to existApr 08 12:20
MinceR;)Apr 08 12:20
oiaohmYep 1 file completely left the face of earth.Apr 08 12:20
oiaohmNo more windows boot at all.Apr 08 12:21
MinceRDaemonFC: ext3 writes metadata _after_ data was writtenApr 08 12:21
DaemonFCMinceR: And you're not Eric Sandeen or Ted Ts'oApr 08 12:21
MinceRDaemonFC: that's the key.Apr 08 12:21
MinceRDaemonFC: i'm happy i'm not Ted Ts'oApr 08 12:21
DaemonFCI'd imagine they know what they're sayingApr 08 12:21
DaemonFCthat's the differenceApr 08 12:21
MinceRi'd hate to explain my way around a fs bug i've written instead of fixing it.Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFCExt3 is the file system with the incorrect behaviorApr 08 12:21
MinceRDaemonFC: well, i'm sure you don't know what you're sayingApr 08 12:21
DaemonFCI say they should refuse to fix itApr 08 12:21
oiaohmNilfs and btrfs both most likely heavly used in future both have snapshoting.Apr 08 12:21
DaemonFCand stop Ext3 from doing itApr 08 12:21
MinceRi say you should use /dev/null as your block deviceApr 08 12:22
DaemonFCand point people at the GNOME/KDE fucktardsApr 08 12:22
oiaohmExt3 is doing data proteciton correct.Apr 08 12:22
MinceRit's POSIX compliant!Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFCwhen they lose data for no reasonApr 08 12:22
oiaohmWith snapshotting.Apr 08 12:22
MinceRbetter yet, use windows 3.1Apr 08 12:22
trmanco...Apr 08 12:22
trmancoFATApr 08 12:22
oiaohmYou can always roll back before thes stuff up DaemonFCApr 08 12:22
MinceRthen you'll be free from gnome, kde, modern filesystems, etc.Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFCThere is really no POSIX way of handling an unclean shutdownApr 08 12:22
DaemonFCso you lose againApr 08 12:22
MinceRso it's forbidden by your religion to handle it?Apr 08 12:22
DaemonFCtradition says play back the journal even if it contains garbageApr 08 12:23
MinceRif it isn't in POSIX then it's forbidden to innovate?Apr 08 12:23
oiaohmThere is no way ever of perfectly handling a unclean shutdown without building in filesystem support for it.Apr 08 12:23
MinceRi'd rather have a file with a little garbage in it than one that's truncated to 0 bytesApr 08 12:23
MinceRor filled with zeroesApr 08 12:23
oiaohmMax suppot for unclean is nilfs.Apr 08 12:23
DaemonFCIf it's on a hard disk, it's at risk of a million things that can and do go wrongApr 08 12:23
DaemonFCI'm sure if your disk crashes, Ext3 was at faultApr 08 12:23
DaemonFCbecause it didn't stop the head from collidingApr 08 12:24
oiaohmUnder nilfs if you have tones of diskspace nothing ever gets deleted.Apr 08 12:24
schestowitzJust the other day we had a Word user here whose file was zeroed IIRCApr 08 12:24
MinceRit would probably be better if on the case of corruption it would be copied or moved to /lost+found thoughApr 08 12:24
schestowitzNice going, Windows.Apr 08 12:24
oiaohmYou delete a file under nilfs it still there in the checkpoints.Apr 08 12:24
oiaohmYou edit a file unedited is still there in the checkpoints.Apr 08 12:24
DaemonFCI've never had XFS lose anything, I've had multiple Ext3 columes before I started using XFS that had gotten to where they would not boot upApr 08 12:25
trmancoschestowitz, that's a feature... to save spaceApr 08 12:25
DaemonFCusually it woulkd crash and fsck would spend HOURS and then admit the Ext3 partition was fuckedApr 08 12:25
DaemonFCand that was thatApr 08 12:25
oiaohmWhat mode were you using.Apr 08 12:25
DaemonFCso you make your backups you take your chancesApr 08 12:25
oiaohmPlease don't be writeback.Apr 08 12:25
DaemonFCbut XFS is a much better fs than Ext3Apr 08 12:26
oiaohmThat was always a sucker to go the way of dead.Apr 08 12:26
DaemonFCorderedApr 08 12:26
oiaohmI guess early on.Apr 08 12:26
MinceRi've had XFS lose files but not ext3Apr 08 12:26
oiaohmAnd got one of the ordered bugs.Apr 08 12:26
MinceRtherefore (by your logic), ext3 is a much better fs than XFS.Apr 08 12:26
MinceRQED.Apr 08 12:26
oiaohmjournal mode of ext3 is solid.Apr 08 12:26
DaemonFCtrusting any file system on a hard disk is like saying you can poke one hole in a condom or 3Apr 08 12:27
DaemonFCand saying the one with one is more trustworthyApr 08 12:27
MinceRlike i said, use /dev/null.Apr 08 12:27
oiaohmAlso journal mode is slower.Apr 08 12:27
DaemonFCExt3 uses an inordinate amount of space for the journalApr 08 12:27
MinceRoiaohm: afaik ordered writes are just as solidApr 08 12:27
DaemonFCand other overheadApr 08 12:27
oiaohmPrice of data protection.Apr 08 12:28
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MinceRalso, /dev/null doesn't even rely on HDD hardware so you avoid those problems too!Apr 08 12:28
DaemonFCordered is slower than writeback, but it's stil lcompletely possible to have a file system that's corrupt beyond repair, or a clean fsck with data lossApr 08 12:28
DaemonFC(my favorite)Apr 08 12:28
oiaohmExt3 is not protected from harddrive defects.Apr 08 12:29
DaemonFCXFS has better disk tools than Ext* anywayApr 08 12:29
oiaohmNeither is XFSApr 08 12:29
vida188 April, 2009: KOffice 2.0 RC 1 releasedApr 08 12:29
vida18http://www.koffice.org/releases/2....Apr 08 12:29
DaemonFCxfs_repair can at least get the partition to mount again if nothing elseApr 08 12:29
DaemonFCe2fsck can't even give you thatApr 08 12:29
DaemonFCanyway, XFS was built for an OS that was much more capable than LinuxApr 08 12:31
DaemonFCprobably still is in some waysApr 08 12:31
DaemonFCand for machines that were much more powerful than a PCApr 08 12:31
DaemonFCand probably still areApr 08 12:31
DaemonFCin outfits that most likely had a UPS regardless of file system cause if they get any data loss they lose millions of dollarsApr 08 12:32
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DaemonFCanyway, MinceRs point is moot anyway when a 15 minute backup battery in a surge protector is all of like $30Apr 08 12:33
oiaohmDaemonFC there are other tools to use other than e2fsckApr 08 12:33
oiaohmon ext2/3/4 to bring them back to life.Apr 08 12:33
DaemonFCe2fsprogs is a jokeApr 08 12:34
oiaohme2fsck will not just create new structs.Apr 08 12:34
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oiaohmI have had xfs_repair give a user like a blank drive before.Apr 08 12:34
oiaohmNot nice.Apr 08 12:34
oiaohmPersonally I prefer it to fail so data recovery can be done.Apr 08 12:35
iwmwmay be that drive contained windows xp installationApr 08 12:35
DaemonFCwas it MOUNTED?Apr 08 12:35
MinceRDaemonFC: and how do you propose a surge protector should protect against driver bugs?Apr 08 12:35
DaemonFCthat's the best way to fuck a file system in Linux no matter whatApr 08 12:35
DaemonFCfsck while mountedApr 08 12:35
trmancoanybody heard of Gnote?Apr 08 12:35
oiaohmNo it was not mounted.Apr 08 12:35
trmancoc++ port of tomboyApr 08 12:36
oiaohmPerson had the idea that xfs_repair would get them out of trouble.Apr 08 12:36
trmanconovell/monosoft just took a kick in th arseApr 08 12:36
DaemonFCMinceR: Turn the computer off and cancel your AOL?Apr 08 12:36
oiaohmxfs_repair will always give a mountable partion even if it make it like a blank drive.Apr 08 12:36
DaemonFCshit, I don't know B-)Apr 08 12:36
iwmwtrmanco: in which way?Apr 08 12:36
MinceRDaemonFC: go back to your friends at ##windowsApr 08 12:36
oiaohmPersonally I hate xfs_repairApr 08 12:37
DaemonFCbecause we know that all hardware and software is 100% reliableApr 08 12:37
oiaohmIt has a habit of just making my job of getting data back harder.Apr 08 12:37
DaemonFCand if it jsut wasn';t for XFS fucking it all upApr 08 12:37
*DaemonFC busts out laughingApr 08 12:37
iwmw*teasing* DaemonFC got a windows friends XDApr 08 12:37
oiaohmI know hardware is not reliableApr 08 12:38
DaemonFCExt3 is pretty damned ugly no matter how much lipstick you put on itApr 08 12:38
iwmwnothing is realiable while you rely on itApr 08 12:38
oiaohmExt4 will be the last in the Ext line of filesystems.Apr 08 12:38
oiaohmXFS will also have to go by by in time.Apr 08 12:39
MinceRext4 isn't only damned ugly, it also loses dataApr 08 12:39
DaemonFCthe recoverability is thanks to hacks and it being primitive, slow, and prone to fragmentationApr 08 12:39
MinceRso thanks, i'll go with ext3 for now.Apr 08 12:39
MinceRand you'll always have /dev/null.Apr 08 12:39
*iwmw suspects that ext2 is quite enoughApr 08 12:39
DaemonFCI'd never use Ext3 againApr 08 12:39
oiaohmext2 your are nuts iwmwApr 08 12:39
DaemonFCnah, XFS is the best that Linux hasApr 08 12:39
MinceR...if you like losing dataApr 08 12:40
DaemonFCthat's only cause ZFS doesn't run on itApr 08 12:40
DaemonFCand BtrFS is still experimentalApr 08 12:40
oiaohmXFS and EXT3 are about equal in there own ways.Apr 08 12:40
iwmw... every toad boasts it's swampApr 08 12:40
MinceRZFS doesn't run on it because sun is scared shitless of LinuxApr 08 12:40
DaemonFCno, it's cause Richard Hippie Stallman says their license is not GPL compatibleApr 08 12:40
DaemonFCif Stallman changed his mind, ZFS could go inApr 08 12:41
DaemonFCthere's nothing non-free about CDDLApr 08 12:41
DaemonFCthat's what happens when you let a religious group loose developing an OSApr 08 12:41
iwmwDaemonFC: hey, smoking weed is usefulApr 08 12:42
DaemonFCWell, if you hate CDDLApr 08 12:42
MinceRthere's nothing non-free about CDDL, the only tiny little problem with it is that it isn't GPL-compatibleApr 08 12:42
DaemonFCstop using FirefoxApr 08 12:42
MinceRthat's the whole reason CDDL existsApr 08 12:42
MinceRand that's the only reason Sun uses it on ZFSApr 08 12:42
trmancowhat's wrong with Firefox? it's success?Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFCthey based CDDL on the Mozilla licenseApr 08 12:42
oiaohmFirefox is not GPL.Apr 08 12:42
DaemonFCso Firefox is not freeApr 08 12:42
MinceRbecause as i've mentioned, they're scared shitless of LinuxApr 08 12:42
DaemonFCby your definitionApr 08 12:42
DaemonFCor Stallman'sApr 08 12:42
MinceRthey know their dinosaur Slowlaris is dying and they believe this will save itApr 08 12:43
DaemonFCwhy would they be?Apr 08 12:43
oiaohmCDDL has a few things altered from Mozillas licences.Apr 08 12:43
iwmwDaemonFC: so what's the most gpl and good browser?Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFCSolaris is better in many waysApr 08 12:43
MinceRperhaps in your imagination.Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFCbut all the software I use is Linux-onlyApr 08 12:43
MinceRyes, we know, you use Linux and you hate every single bit about itApr 08 12:43
oiaohmSolarias is better in some ways.Apr 08 12:43
MinceRwe feel so sorry for you.Apr 08 12:43
oiaohmLack of hardware support for solaris killed it.Apr 08 12:43
DaemonFCHave fun with Ext3 and 4k stacksApr 08 12:43
DaemonFCB-)Apr 08 12:43
iwmwguys, what's the most gpl and sane browser?Apr 08 12:43
MinceRhave fun with random data lossApr 08 12:44
MinceRsane browser? that would be a good idea.Apr 08 12:44
DaemonFCif XFS has any flaws it's because it's too good for LinuxApr 08 12:44
oiaohmkonq is gpl.Apr 08 12:44
MinceRlolApr 08 12:44
iwmwlol, konq is not good yetApr 08 12:44
trmancogaleanApr 08 12:44
trmancosorry, EpiphanyApr 08 12:45
oiaohmAll current filesystems have flaws DaemonFCApr 08 12:45
oiaohmXFS is just getting feature long in tooth.Apr 08 12:45
DaemonFCKonqueror: Great until you try to load a flash applet, try to hit ctrl+enter, try to autoscroll, or try to sign into XBOX forums or your bank's websiteApr 08 12:45
oiaohmLot of new features need to be added to XFS to keep up.Apr 08 12:45
iwmwtrmanco: galean is 3 years oldApr 08 12:45
trmancogaleon tooApr 08 12:45
iwmw(last version of it)Apr 08 12:45
DaemonFCthere's quite a bit of work being done on XFS in 2.6.30Apr 08 12:46
trmancoLOL, 2006, you're rightApr 08 12:46
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DaemonFC61 patches landed in the merge window aloneApr 08 12:46
iwmwi feel like installing epiphanyApr 08 12:46
DaemonFCnot BtrFS-killer stuff, but it'll keep it goingApr 08 12:46
DaemonFCLinux has a major Not Invented Here syndrome a lot of the timeApr 08 12:47
DaemonFCI mean they threw away Reiser4 entirely, and went with an upgrade of Ext3!?!?Apr 08 12:47
DaemonFCThey're smoking crackApr 08 12:47
oiaohmXFS does not have file based snapshotting.Apr 08 12:48
DaemonFCand Ext4 does?Apr 08 12:48
oiaohmExt4 is the last of its line.Apr 08 12:48
DaemonFCExt4=Welcome to 1994Apr 08 12:48
iwmwwatch them start ext5 right before the release of ext4Apr 08 12:48
oiaohmBecause it cannot be updated to include the features systems in future will need.Apr 08 12:48
oiaohmNo there is no Ext5Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFCBtrFS will replace itApr 08 12:49
DaemonFCI'm pretty sureApr 08 12:49
iwmwha, they are preparing it as a surprise, oiaohmApr 08 12:49
oiaohmThat is the path.Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFCyou see how eager Linus is to get his hands on itApr 08 12:49
MinceRhow complete was reiser4?Apr 08 12:49
oiaohmBtrFS is the one after ext4 iwmwApr 08 12:49
iwmwnot complete, MinceRApr 08 12:49
DaemonFCBtrFS will be able to upgrade over Ext3/4Apr 08 12:49
DaemonFCin placeApr 08 12:49
oiaohmBtrFS can also do that with XFSApr 08 12:49
DaemonFCMinceR: Reiser4 is completeApr 08 12:49
MinceRdid kernel developers understand the design of reiser4 completely?Apr 08 12:50
iwmwoiaohm: is btrfs user-ready?Apr 08 12:50
DaemonFCand you can patch your kernel to use itApr 08 12:50
DaemonFCor use an mm kernelApr 08 12:50
oiaohmNot yet iwmwApr 08 12:50
oiaohmIts the development line iwmwApr 08 12:50
MinceR(i thought it was dropped because they relied on Hans Reiser to finish it)Apr 08 12:50
DaemonFCMinceR: Nothing in Reiser4 requires Hans Reiser, it is GPL'dApr 08 12:50
DaemonFCand the kernel guys are jerksApr 08 12:50
DaemonFCeven though Many NameSys employees still maintain itApr 08 12:50
MinceRsure, but someone has to understand the design to really build on it/modify itApr 08 12:51
MinceRicApr 08 12:51
iwmwwhat's the best one to use at home for speed of usual file ops without searching or smth, oiaohm?Apr 08 12:51
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iwmwi mean stable and fastApr 08 12:51
DaemonFCMinceR: You'd like Reiser4, it was atomicApr 08 12:51
oiaohmStable is a very changable word.Apr 08 12:51
DaemonFCmeaning it could never allow an incomplete transaction to bork the file systemApr 08 12:51
MinceRi heard it was going to be very innovativeApr 08 12:51
MinceRwith new ways to organize files, perhaps... or was that another NameSys project?Apr 08 12:52
oiaohmAnd due to driver defects Reiser4 can still take it self out.Apr 08 12:52
iwmwyeah, it shouldn't lose data when i press reset and no data loss on it's own wantingApr 08 12:52
DaemonFCIf you do a side by side comparison of file systems on WikipediaApr 08 12:52
DaemonFCReiser4 and BtrFS have the best featuresApr 08 12:52
oiaohmNilfs has it place too.Apr 08 12:53
DaemonFCReiser4 had a lot of really neat ideasApr 08 12:53
DaemonFCand all the good stuff from XFSApr 08 12:53
DaemonFCB-)Apr 08 12:53
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NILFS  << Read this devil DaemonFCApr 08 12:53
DaemonFC8 Exbibyte files?Apr 08 12:54
DaemonFCdamnApr 08 12:54
DaemonFCthat's the same as XFSApr 08 12:55
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oiaohmYep but strongerApr 08 12:55
DaemonFCXFS has a max volume size of 16 ExbibytesApr 08 12:55
DaemonFCExt4's is 1 ExbibyteApr 08 12:55
oiaohmThere is nilfs2 as well.Apr 08 12:55
DaemonFCbut due to limitations in e2fsprogs......Apr 08 12:56
DaemonFCExt4 is limited to 16 TBApr 08 12:56
DaemonFCjust like Ext3Apr 08 12:56
DaemonFCyeah, that's still huge by desktop PC standardsApr 08 12:57
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DaemonFCbut it's not much by the standards of some professional usesApr 08 12:57
DaemonFCbrbApr 08 12:57
oiaohmnilfs is great for configuration directories.Apr 08 12:57
MinceRoiaohm: nilfs seems really niceApr 08 12:58
oiaohmIts not perfect.Apr 08 12:59
oiaohmhttp://www.nilfs.org/en/current_status.html  << As plained features show.Apr 08 12:59
oiaohmBut nilfs2 enters mainline with 2.6.30Apr 08 12:59
oiaohmSimple fact stuff like ext and xfs are going to become old hat most likely by end of year.Apr 08 13:00
MinceR"Simultaneously mountable" means using the same SAN volume from multiple machines at the same time?Apr 08 13:00
MinceR(read-write?)Apr 08 13:00
PeterKraushmmApr 08 13:01
MinceRi'm not really sure filesystems can become "old hat" in one year :>Apr 08 13:01
oiaohmmain mount read-writeApr 08 13:01
trmancoversioning filesystem?Apr 08 13:01
PeterKrausi don't think i'll switch soonApr 08 13:01
PeterKrausit'll require too much workApr 08 13:01
MinceRbtrfs & co still need a lot of testingApr 08 13:01
iwmwi gonna switch to fat32...Apr 08 13:01
MinceRand support in major distro releasesApr 08 13:01
iwmwand use wubiApr 08 13:01
MinceRiwmw: ewApr 08 13:01
oiaohmsnapshots mounts read only as many as you want MinceRApr 08 13:01
MinceRi knowApr 08 13:01
iwmwMinceR: after all these talksApr 08 13:01
oiaohmThat is what simultaneously mountable is about.Apr 08 13:02
MinceRoiaohm: when/how are checkpoints created -- automatically or manually?Apr 08 13:02
oiaohmnilfs automatically creates checkpoints.Apr 08 13:02
MinceRoiaohm: so simultaneous mounts are for readonly snapshots only, right?Apr 08 13:02
oiaohmYou turn the ones you want out of the checkpoints into snapshots.Apr 08 13:03
MinceRicApr 08 13:03
oiaohmIe it will garbage collect checkpoints not snapshots.Apr 08 13:03
oiaohmBasically its a delayed deleting filesystem.Apr 08 13:03
oiaohmWhat can be really really handy at times.Apr 08 13:04
PeterKrausi wonder what's the storage reqApr 08 13:04
oiaohmnilfs is more storage using.Apr 08 13:04
oiaohmfall back locations are not free of course.Apr 08 13:04
MinceRi see some things are still missingApr 08 13:05
oiaohmBetween nilfs and btrfs we will have two great filesystems.Apr 08 13:05
oiaohmIn time.Apr 08 13:05
oiaohmmaking most of the filesystems we use now look like crap.Apr 08 13:06
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oiaohmsnapshots also make things like timevault and equal look extreamly disk wasting.Apr 08 13:06
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oiaohmNo limit on the number of snapshots until the volume gets full << yes nilfs only starts overwriting files when disk gets full.Apr 08 13:08
PeterKrauswell yeahApr 08 13:08
oiaohmbtrfs design should allow it to upgrade any filesystem to its self.Apr 08 13:08
PeterKrausyeahApr 08 13:08
PeterKrausthat's what i'm looking forApr 08 13:09
PeterKrausif it gives me smooth transition from JFSApr 08 13:09
PeterKrauscomparable stabilityApr 08 13:09
PeterKrausand better performanceApr 08 13:09
DaemonFCwell if it can do that, then why can't it upgrade itself to new on-disk formats?Apr 08 13:09
PeterKrausi'm soldApr 08 13:09
oiaohmIt can downgrade as well DaemonFCApr 08 13:09
oiaohmWe just have to wait for btrfs to complete.Apr 08 13:10
oiaohmYou now see why lots of us are following it PeterKrausApr 08 13:10
PeterKrauswellApr 08 13:10
PeterKrausi don't because i'm satisfied with JFSApr 08 13:10
DaemonFCI've been a huge fan of XFS ever since I used IRIXApr 08 13:10
DaemonFCbut XFS didn't used to be all that stable on Linux because of deficiencies in LinuxApr 08 13:11
PeterKraushehApr 08 13:11
DaemonFCthat's mostly been ironed out in recent kernelsApr 08 13:11
PeterKrausi didn't use XFSApr 08 13:11
PeterKrausat allApr 08 13:11
DaemonFCLinux 2.4 was a jokeApr 08 13:11
PeterKraus:DApr 08 13:11
schestowitzHey, iwmw. Thanks.Apr 08 13:11
DaemonFCbut it was enough to give XFS a bad nameApr 08 13:11
DaemonFC:PApr 08 13:12
iwmwschestowitz: about what?Apr 08 13:12
iwmwi didn't seem to do anything here, just asking stupid questionsApr 08 13:13
PeterKraushehApr 08 13:13
PeterKrausi am a bit sad about the state of Reiser4Apr 08 13:13
PeterKrausi wanted to try itApr 08 13:13
PeterKrausbut it seems most of the good ideas from it went into btrfsApr 08 13:14
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFS...  Really if you could work out how to get snapshotting into jfs it would be worth while keeping around.Apr 08 13:14
iwmwyeah, none of you can be satisfied that's already stable and working and is kinda enoughApr 08 13:14
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iwmwyou definitely need that latest builds of some unstable but promising fsApr 08 13:14
PeterKrausiwmw: i'm satisfied with my old trusty JFS :)Apr 08 13:14
schestowitzoiaohm: Konq is Lgpl AFAIKApr 08 13:14
iwmwPeterKraus: and i'm satisfied with ext3Apr 08 13:14
oiaohmI do data recovery.Apr 08 13:15
iwmwi don't screw my filesystemsApr 08 13:15
oiaohmI get lots and lots people who do stupid things.Apr 08 13:15
oiaohmLike deleting files then wanting them back.Apr 08 13:15
iwmwyeah, they use windowsApr 08 13:15
oiaohmSo I want something that can run idiot proff.Apr 08 13:16
iwmwit's common thing in windows to delete something that you "didn't want to"Apr 08 13:16
oiaohmYes under windows they empty the recycle bin as well.Apr 08 13:16
iwmwi didn't do that for 10 years already may beApr 08 13:16
oiaohmBest protection for them is snapshotting filesystems of some form.Apr 08 13:16
iwmwyeah, weekly backupingApr 08 13:17
oiaohmand backups.Apr 08 13:17
iwmwof /dev/randomApr 08 13:17
oiaohmJust put it this way I have a lot higher standard on what a file system has to be.Apr 08 13:17
oiaohmAt the rate btrfs and nilfs are developing I might at long last have filesystems I like.Apr 08 13:18
oiaohmZFS almost made it.Apr 08 13:18
schestowitziwmw: I was catching upApr 08 13:19
iwmwXDApr 08 13:19
MinceRoiaohm: well, you could use LVM to make snapshots under JFSApr 08 13:20
schestowitzDidn't H-P released a UNIX FS as gplv2 about 8 months ago??Apr 08 13:20
schestowitzNo word since then...Apr 08 13:20
MinceRi almost learned how to do that with LVM+ext3 but then btrfs was announced :)Apr 08 13:20
MinceRschestowitz: i faintly remember itApr 08 13:20
oiaohmPer file based is what I prefered to have.  MinceRApr 08 13:20
MinceRbut it was mentioned more as a source for snippets to implement some new fs for some reasonApr 08 13:21
schestowitzMany FSs arrive just to dieApr 08 13:21
schestowitzLots of competitionApr 08 13:21
oiaohmIts a lot lighter on disk access.Apr 08 13:21
oiaohmand usageApr 08 13:21
schestowitzBut LogFS for example is optimised for other purposesApr 08 13:21
MinceRis there an FS that can make a snapshot that isn't of the whole volume?Apr 08 13:21
schestowitzNTFS/FAT* are like Windows... one size fits all, implemented poorly.Apr 08 13:21
oiaohmNTFS and FAT are both getting to the end of there useful lives.Apr 08 13:23
oiaohmMinceR: nilfs does snapshots per file.Apr 08 13:23
MinceRicApr 08 13:24
MinceRi almost switched to ext3cowApr 08 13:24
MinceRthen i noticed that you can't delete snapshots. :/Apr 08 13:24
oiaohmEarly nilfs you could not either.Apr 08 13:25
oiaohmreason why nilfs2 appearedApr 08 13:25
schestowitzMicrosoft will deliver WinFSApr 08 13:26
schestowitz...when Duken Nukem Forver is outApr 08 13:26
iwmwthey said they are developing it XDApr 08 13:26
schestowitzAnd when Zune "f*ing kills" iPodApr 08 13:26
schestowitzI heard that Oracle wanted ZFS but went ahead of btrfs because of licensingApr 08 13:27
MinceRschestowitz: will WinFS be used on the Phantom console? :>Apr 08 13:27
schestowitzOracle not competes with Sun (mysql)Apr 08 13:27
oiaohmbtrfs snapshots are whole volume but iniside the same volume.Apr 08 13:28
MinceRand will it ship with a Glaze3D GPU? :>Apr 08 13:28
schestowitzMinceR: they said winfs won't dieApr 08 13:28
MinceR:DApr 08 13:28
schestowitzThey tossed it for people to play withApr 08 13:28
oiaohmSo blocks can be shared so saving on disk space MinceRApr 08 13:28
schestowitzLike LonghornApr 08 13:28
schestowitzAnd SingularityApr 08 13:28
MinceRwell, something that wasn't even born won't dieApr 08 13:28
schestowitzWill Singularity ever produce anythiing?Apr 08 13:28
schestowitzNo.Apr 08 13:28
schestowitzThey call it a "research project"Apr 08 13:28
iwmwit's better with torrents killing zune and ipodApr 08 13:29
schestowitzCodename for "failure"Apr 08 13:29
schestowitz"We didn't fail, it was just research"Apr 08 13:29
schestowitzWinFS had some promise when they canned itApr 08 13:29
schestowitzThe promise that something would come out of itApr 08 13:29
oiaohmWinFS had a problem.Apr 08 13:29
MinceRthat's the kind of "research" they do and are so damn proud ofApr 08 13:29
oiaohmThey were trying to make historic NTFS act like a database.Apr 08 13:29
schestowitzBut the Windows kernel is apparently too complex even for 10s of 1000s of MS engineers to put WinFS-like functionality inApr 08 13:30
MinceRothers call such things "failed projects" and call actual research research.Apr 08 13:30
schestowitzLinux already has thatApr 08 13:30
schestowitzNothing ever came out of the WinFS thing since 2006Apr 08 13:30
schestowitzNothingApr 08 13:30
MinceRhas anyone even seen winfs work at all?Apr 08 13:30
schestowitzNadaApr 08 13:30
schestowitzZilchApr 08 13:30
schestowitzWith longhorn, at least some people kicked it aboutApr 08 13:30
oiaohmDefine work MinceRApr 08 13:30
schestowitzThen Microsoft issued a C&DApr 08 13:30
*iwmw wants 8EiB hdd to create 8eib filesApr 08 13:30
iwmwwith nilfsApr 08 13:31
MinceRoiaohm: store, retrieve and list filesApr 08 13:31
schestowitzSingularity -- no word, eitherApr 08 13:31
oiaohmIf you call file create times make 50 times longer ok MinceRApr 08 13:31
MinceR(and to do a kind of query winfs was supposed to offer as new stuff)Apr 08 13:31
schestowitzSingularity was shelved some months ago, then Mary Jo Foley and MS ilk blogged about itApr 08 13:31
oiaohmSame with file update times.Apr 08 13:31
schestowitzNothing sinceApr 08 13:31
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schestowitzIt's abandonwareApr 08 13:31
MinceRi doubt that fits the definition of abandonwareApr 08 13:32
oiaohmMS has only done minor things in the core of there OS.Apr 08 13:32
schestowitzcause of the licence?Apr 08 13:32
schestowitzWell, watch the licence.Apr 08 13:32
schestowitzIt's abhorrentApr 08 13:32
schestowitzSomething about being permitted only in academiaApr 08 13:32
schestowitzNot for profitApr 08 13:32
oiaohmLinux is ahead in cpu support.Apr 08 13:32
schestowitzEven the GPL is FAT betterApr 08 13:32
oiaohmMS brags about getting up to 255Apr 08 13:32
schestowitzIt encourages making moneyApr 08 13:32
schestowitzMicrosoft is against itApr 08 13:33
schestowitzMicrosoft OSS -- for MS freetardsApr 08 13:33
MinceRbecause it wasn't ever releasedApr 08 13:33
schestowitzLinux does 2^12 CPUsApr 08 13:33
MinceRabandonware is old sw that was released (and sold, if applicable) for a while and the owner stopped caring since, so it's unobtainable from them now, and so other groups are spreading itApr 08 13:34
iwmwwowApr 08 13:34
schestowitzMS does 2^8 you say, but I think more, oiaohm Apr 08 13:34
oiaohmMS clusters above that.Apr 08 13:34
schestowitzoiaohm: no way for Microsoft to win thisApr 08 13:34
schestowitzNeed inspired developmentApr 08 13:34
schestowitzBig (>1000 cpus) machines run LinuxApr 08 13:34
schestowitzTop500 runs Linux 94% of the time, so IBM keeps paying for developmentApr 08 13:35
oiaohmAnd 4096 machines are starting to look small too.Apr 08 13:35
schestowitzPeople like T'soApr 08 13:35
oiaohmThere are companies who want 2^16 or greater core numbers.Apr 08 13:36
oiaohmIn equal to a single system.Apr 08 13:36
oiaohmCall it a never be done thing.Apr 08 13:36
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluegene "# A large number of nodes (scalable in increments of 1024 up to at least 65,536)"Apr 08 13:36
schestowitzThat's 2^16Apr 08 13:37
schestowitz(or more0Apr 08 13:37
oiaohmWhen you know the numbers 255 in single system not clustered is not even a computer in supper computer users minds.Apr 08 13:38
iwmwsupercomputer users are not usersApr 08 13:38
schestowitzClientsApr 08 13:38
iwmwwith terminalsApr 08 13:38
oiaohmI was refering to the company as the user.Apr 08 13:39
schestowitzWeather forecasts..Apr 08 13:39
trmanco2^16 cpus,,,,, insaneApr 08 13:40
iwmwoh... seers are quite enough to predict the weatherApr 08 13:40
*trmanco wipes his mouthApr 08 13:40
iwmwthey are much cheaperApr 08 13:40
oiaohmThere are plans to build bigger trmancoApr 08 13:40
trmancowowApr 08 13:40
oiaohmYes 2^16 appears as a single machine from the running OS.Apr 08 13:41
trmancoI still live with, lets see nowApr 08 13:41
trmanco1Apr 08 13:41
oiaohmIs kinda scary.Apr 08 13:41
oiaohmThen cluster them.Apr 08 13:41
oiaohmYou have to remember 4096 basically fits in a bar fridge.Apr 08 13:41
iwmwwhy would you want to cluster 2^16 cpus?Apr 08 13:41
oiaohmIt gets worse.Apr 08 13:42
oiaohmThey are thinking about hybred gpu cpu at 2^16 size.Apr 08 13:42
iwmwpervertsApr 08 13:42
trmanco:oApr 08 13:42
iwmwit's intel's dreamApr 08 13:42
iwmwto run free raytracing library on itApr 08 13:43
oiaohmGPU can be used for general data processing.Apr 08 13:43
iwmwthey didn't even wanna implement it themselvesApr 08 13:43
oiaohmThey are very good at processing dna and other things.Apr 08 13:43
iwmwdna processing... what do you want to process in there?Apr 08 13:43
oiaohmMaybe it might be big enough to computer replicate a human cell.Apr 08 13:43
trmancopipelining?Apr 08 13:44
trmancosomething that cpu's don't have... i thinkApr 08 13:44
iwmwwhat?Apr 08 13:44
oiaohmWhere is the fasterst data processing chip in most computers?Apr 08 13:45
trmancogpu?Apr 08 13:45
iwmwgpuApr 08 13:45
iwmwlolApr 08 13:45
oiaohmGPU by millsApr 08 13:45
trmancoI've read this somewhereApr 08 13:45
trmancolong time agoApr 08 13:45
oiaohmMost can simply chew threw 16 times as much as the fastest cpu.Apr 08 13:45
iwmwyeah, but they chew in a very limited wayApr 08 13:46
trmancopeople would use there gpu for the distributed computing thingApr 08 13:46
iwmweven though they do it much fasterApr 08 13:46
trmancostuff like foldingApr 08 13:46
oiaohmYep.Apr 08 13:46
oiaohmfolding predicting dna.Apr 08 13:46
trmancoyeah, that stuffApr 08 13:46
oiaohmVery complex operation.Apr 08 13:46
*iwmw suspects that gpu is not suited for that stuffApr 08 13:47
iwmwgpus don't support complex operationsApr 08 13:47
oiaohmFolding home project showed it clear that it is.Apr 08 13:47
oiaohmDNA is really not that complex.Apr 08 13:47
oiaohmYou have a crap load of it.Apr 08 13:47
*zer0c00l (n=zer0c00l@210.212.255.131) has joined #boycottnovellApr 08 13:48
oiaohmAnd somewhere in there is the bit of information you need.Apr 08 13:48
iwmwyeah, plenty of dna spamApr 08 13:48
DaemonFCwhy would I give my CPU timeApr 08 13:48
DaemonFCto a drug companyApr 08 13:48
DaemonFCfor free?Apr 08 13:48
iwmwsome people like to spam with dna infoApr 08 13:48
oiaohmVirusesApr 08 13:48
zer0c00lHugh Jackman Heartbroken by Wolverine Leak:http://www.people.com/people/arti... :PApr 08 13:48
iwmwoiaohm: no, it's pr0nApr 08 13:49
oiaohmThere are a lot of trapped viruses in your dna iwmwApr 08 13:49
iwmwso every other adult male should be put to jailApr 08 13:49
trmancohttp://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bi...Apr 08 13:50
iwmwhm... something's really wrong about ati-nvidiaApr 08 13:52
zer0c00ltrmanco, what is that?Apr 08 13:52
trmancozer0c00l, stats from Standford's folding thingApr 08 13:53
trmancoStanford's*Apr 08 13:53
oiaohmGreat the most usless addition exofsApr 08 13:53
oiaohmYou need a object based storage back end to use it.Apr 08 13:54
iwmwzer0c00l: it's just a statistics on how many hardware participated in computing distributed stuffApr 08 13:55
zer0c00l:)Apr 08 13:55
zer0c00lFolding@home is a distributed computing project -- people from throughout the world download and run software to band together to make one of the largest supercomputers in the world.Apr 08 13:57
zer0c00lcoolApr 08 13:57
iwmwyeah... they also pay for electricity that this compy consumesApr 08 13:57
iwmwand after their gpus work 24/30 the latter are almost deadApr 08 13:58
oiaohmtomoyo secuirty frame work is in.Apr 08 14:02
oiaohmThat makes 3 to choose from in the default kernel.Apr 08 14:02
DaemonFCTomoyo.........You mean the one that is only documented well in JapaneseApr 08 14:02
DaemonFCand only shipping with TurboLinux and MandrivaApr 08 14:02
DaemonFCfor some messed up reason, Ubuntu is using AppArmorApr 08 14:03
oiaohmThey are working on translating to english.Apr 08 14:04
DaemonFCpersonally I'd rather they didn't use anythingApr 08 14:04
DaemonFCif they're going to damage the OS, why does it have to be over something so easy to bypass?Apr 08 14:04
oiaohmTomoyo is not easy to bypass.Apr 08 14:04
DaemonFCall MAC damages the OSApr 08 14:05
DaemonFCand makes it more difficult to useApr 08 14:05
oiaohm2.6.30 and up has file based filtering for mac but apparmor has not be updated yet to use it.Apr 08 14:05
oiaohmPeople can say that about all secuirty settings DaemonFCApr 08 14:05
DaemonFCthe ones that don't fuck you over with benign tasks (SELinux) are completely useless (AppArmor)Apr 08 14:06
oiaohmWrong user settings can get in way too so we should do away with multiable users.Apr 08 14:06
oiaohmThat is basically your logic.Apr 08 14:06
oiaohmMAC should exist in a OS.Apr 08 14:06
DaemonFCno, I just say don't force it on people that never asked for itApr 08 14:06
oiaohmBut it should not be a bug bear to fix either.Apr 08 14:06
DaemonFClike I saidApr 08 14:07
DaemonFCworthless (AppArmor)Apr 08 14:07
DaemonFCgulag (SELinux)Apr 08 14:07
oiaohmNone is not a solution.Apr 08 14:07
oiaohmTomoyo is more friendly other than its manual.Apr 08 14:07
oiaohmNot being english.Apr 08 14:08
oiaohmsmack is also more friendly than selinux.Apr 08 14:08
oiaohmUbuntu has the option of three.  Apparmor smack and selinux.Apr 08 14:08
DaemonFCyeah, and they're making the system depend more on AppArmor latelyApr 08 14:09
oiaohmIf apparmor gets fixed the way Tomoyo is for file based it will become secure.Apr 08 14:09
oiaohmIt the IF bit.  As far as I know no one is working on apparmor.Apr 08 14:10
oiaohmLead developer for appamor works with smack these days.Apr 08 14:10
*Omar87 (n=omar@79.173.238.112) has joined #boycottnovellApr 08 14:10
Omar87HiApr 08 14:11
iwmwis selinux kinda useless or useless only for most of users?Apr 08 14:11
iwmwcan a user be forced to run everything through selinux/Apr 08 14:12
oiaohmSelinux is not useless.  More can be annoying like a incorrectly set firewall.Apr 08 14:12
oiaohmOnly problem with Selinux is that it configuration files are not what you call easy reading.Apr 08 14:13
DaemonFCAVC Denial! You tried to open your text editorApr 08 14:13
DaemonFCAVC Denial: You tried to open a program in WineApr 08 14:13
DaemonFCAVC Denial: You attempted to log in!Apr 08 14:13
oiaohmYep set wrong.Apr 08 14:13
oiaohmAnnoying as hell.Apr 08 14:13
DaemonFCAVC Denial: Just for the hell of it!Apr 08 14:13
iwmwfrom what i read you can run anything leaving selinux behindApr 08 14:14
oiaohmNo there is always a trigger.Apr 08 14:14
iwmwAVC Denial: You powered up the computerApr 08 14:14
oiaohmYou can set allow everything rules in selinux.Apr 08 14:14
oiaohmIts highly flexable.Apr 08 14:15
*Eruaran has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 08 14:15
oiaohmselinux is also shows you that root user is virtual.Apr 08 14:15
oiaohmIe selinux can even block root users from being able to do anything.Apr 08 14:15
oiaohmIf set wrong.Apr 08 14:15
oiaohmCorrectly set selinux just works away in background without bothering you.Apr 08 14:16
iwmwhm... restricted root user...Apr 08 14:16
*Eruaran (n=quassel@203.208.110.183) has joined #boycottnovellApr 08 14:16
oiaohmEven without selinux you can built a linux kernel where root user is powerless.Apr 08 14:16
oiaohmOnly thing that gives root user power is capiblities set on the user.Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFCI pretty much just untick most things where they say "If in doubt, answer N"Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFC:PApr 08 14:17
iwmwwhat's the main reason to use selinux?Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFCall the obvious crap like "Parallel Port Support"Apr 08 14:17
DaemonFCdebugging crapApr 08 14:17
DaemonFClegacy crapApr 08 14:17
oiaohmselinux basically put sandboxs around applications.Apr 08 14:18
DaemonFCanything marked deprecatedApr 08 14:18
oiaohmand services.Apr 08 14:18
iwmwoiaohm: but what's the reason to do so?Apr 08 14:18
oiaohmReducing the damage they can do if they get exploited.Apr 08 14:18
iwmwawwApr 08 14:18
iwmwthat's pretty paranoidApr 08 14:18
DaemonFCtickless kernel is the most damnable thing everApr 08 14:18
DaemonFC:PApr 08 14:18
oiaohmDo you run a virus scanner iwmwApr 08 14:18
iwmwnoApr 08 14:19
oiaohmOn windows.Apr 08 14:19
iwmwoh, i run it once a 2 yearsApr 08 14:19
iwmwsome very free scannerApr 08 14:19
oiaohmMostly because under windows there are that many threats you have to.Apr 08 14:19
iwmwthe last i ran it was a week agoApr 08 14:19
EruaranOur ClarkConnect server has a virus scannerApr 08 14:19
EruaranBut we leave it offApr 08 14:19
iwmwso i'm free for 2 yearsApr 08 14:20
oiaohmFor linux there are not that many viruses.Apr 08 14:20

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