03.13.09

^{Gemini version available ♊︎}

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 12th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:11 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

oiaohm	Can you not get the split.	Mar 12 12:25
jose	split?	Mar 12 12:26
oiaohm	ScanTwain is a front end. Ie no drivers.	Mar 12 12:26
oiaohm	So by it self cannot scan anything.	Mar 12 12:26
jose	i think i’m following	Mar 12 12:26
jose	now how would i get the drivers and where would i find mono	Mar 12 12:26
oiaohm	The mono dependancy is in the driver.	Mar 12 12:26
jose	and why can’t i see this information in the press release	Mar 12 12:27
jose	the press release says mono needed for gui	Mar 12 12:27
oiaohm	Gui of the driver.	Mar 12 12:27
jose	how would i access that	Mar 12 12:27
jose	where would i find those files	Mar 12 12:27
oiaohm	Someone cut and pasted from driver information page into a press release.	Mar 12 12:27
oiaohm	Without double checking by the looks of it.	Mar 12 12:28
jose	do you know where i would find the drivers?	Mar 12 12:28
jose	ok, i’m heading over to www.sane-project.org to look for those drivers	Mar 12 12:29
oiaohm	No there not a sane-project.org	Mar 12 12:30
oiaohm	I am wonder where there drivers are hidden my self.	Mar 12 12:30
jose	i couldn’t find it there either	Mar 12 12:30
jose	a reason this grabbed my attention was that microsoft has paid people to use silverlight	Mar 12 12:31
jose	market uptake is a serious issue in some circles	Mar 12 12:32
oiaohm	http://graphics.kodak.com/docimagin…	Mar 12 12:32
oiaohm	Yep universal .net driver.	Mar 12 12:32
jose	ok that seems to be it	Mar 12 12:33
oiaohm	Now that adds a new wrinkle to the .net problem.	Mar 12 12:34
jose	let me verify this then.. there is the driver gui and the scantwain gui.. one requires mono and the other qt	Mar 12 12:35
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 12 12:35
oiaohm	Even if you are using sane with the driver you would still annoying need mono to use the driver.	Mar 12 12:36
jose	it’s a binary	Mar 12 12:36
jose	without thinking i was assuming i’d find some source	Mar 12 12:37
jose	stupid me	Mar 12 12:37
jose	well, i’m actually guessing there is no source..	Mar 12 12:37
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.74.11) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 12 12:37
_Hicham_	Hi All!	Mar 12 12:38
oiaohm	Yep jose its a closed source driver.	Mar 12 12:38
jose	btw, what is the flag to peek inside an rpm?	Mar 12 12:39
jose	-q?	Mar 12 12:40
jose	nope	Mar 12 12:40
jose	-q -l?	Mar 12 12:40
jose	nope	Mar 12 12:41
oiaohm	Hmm its two halfs.	Mar 12 12:46
oiaohm	One that is .net the gui of the driver.	Mar 12 12:47
oiaohm	one that is the driver it self that is a native elf.	Mar 12 12:47
jose	dotnet files have their own format or are they encoded into the elf?	Mar 12 12:50
jose	for example, java has .class files	Mar 12 12:51
jose	you run these as data to the jvm	Mar 12 12:51
jose	but if you compile, i presume you would get an elf that would set everything up and run the class file	Mar 12 12:52
jose	i imagine dotnet is possibly similar	Mar 12 12:52
oiaohm	dotnet files are windows pe stubs with .net bytecode after it.	Mar 12 12:52
jose	well.. in terms of linux	Mar 12 12:52
oiaohm	,net binarys are the same on all platforms.	Mar 12 12:52
oiaohm	Yes eww	Mar 12 12:53
jose	is pe the exec file format on windows?	Mar 12 12:53
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 12 12:53
jose	so wouldn’t you need something that linux loader would understand	Mar 12 12:53
oiaohm	mono windowsstubed.net.exe	Mar 12 12:53
oiaohm	Linux kernel does not load .net executables natively.	Mar 12 12:54
oiaohm	Neiher does windows.	Mar 12 12:54
jose	ie, dotnet binary needs the interface .. fine	Mar 12 12:54
jose	i thought when you said binaries you meant it just runs as is on linux	Mar 12 12:55
jose	understand now	Mar 12 12:55
_Hicham_	what is that program?	Mar 12 12:55
jose	kodak scanner driver	Mar 12 12:55
_Hicham_	isnt available natively in Linux?	Mar 12 12:56
oiaohm	It does have 1 bit that is a native Linux elf.	Mar 12 12:56
jose	http://graphics.kodak.com/docimaging/US/e…	Mar 12 12:56
oiaohm	The driver is half .net half native _Hicham_	Mar 12 12:56
jose	http://www.designtaxi.com/ne…	Mar 12 12:56
oiaohm	A real ugly driver.	Mar 12 12:56
_Hicham_	wow	Mar 12 12:57
_Hicham_	if it was entirely in .NET, you could have used mono	Mar 12 12:57
_Hicham_	even though it is not appreciated in here	Mar 12 12:57
oiaohm	I don’t think the driver could have been created fully in .net and worked to twain 2.0 standard.	Mar 12 12:58
_Hicham_	why?	Mar 12 12:58
oiaohm	C calling interface to a library.	Mar 12 12:58
jose	thanks for helping to clarify that up oiaohm	Mar 12 12:59
jose	i’ll be going soon then	Mar 12 12:59
oiaohm	Little bit hard to do in .net build a lib that other programs can call _Hicham_	Mar 12 12:59
_Hicham_	well, you can link to .NET libraries as you would do with any native library	Mar 12 13:00
_Hicham_	plus, .NET library are managed	Mar 12 13:00
oiaohm	Linux native program calling .net libraries without any fance interface.	Mar 12 13:00
oiaohm	fancy interface	Mar 12 13:00
jose	schestowitz.. it was a false alarm	Mar 12 13:00
oiaohm	Not that simple _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:00
_Hicham_	well, what do the mono assemblies do in here?	Mar 12 13:01
_Hicham_	aren’t they created for that?	Mar 12 13:01
oiaohm	Nop	Mar 12 13:01
_Hicham_	what are they created for then?	Mar 12 13:01
oiaohm	Not to provide a pure C style interface to talk to.	Mar 12 13:01
oiaohm	They provide preoptimised _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:01
oiaohm	gcc cil project might be able to do it in time. Or if mono aot has major alterations maybe.	Mar 12 13:02
_Hicham_	is there a gcc cil project?	Mar 12 13:02
oiaohm	Yes there is _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:02
_Hicham_	who is sponsoring it?	Mar 12 13:03
oiaohm	No one is a person pet project.	Mar 12 13:03
_Hicham_	what would be the profit?	Mar 12 13:03
oiaohm	http://gcc.gnu.org/projects/cli.html	Mar 12 13:04
oiaohm	Not all things have profit _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:04
oiaohm	Some are can it be done.	Mar 12 13:04
oiaohm	It can open up the way for all language known by gcc to be built for .net	Mar 12 13:05
oiaohm	Also open up the way to building native programs from .net objects.	Mar 12 13:05
_Hicham_	but, would M$ allow that?	Mar 12 13:06
_Hicham_	MS allowed gcc because it wasn’t a threat to MSVC	Mar 12 13:06
oiaohm	Really MSVC is not the best complier out there.	Mar 12 13:06
_Hicham_	but I think that this era is over	Mar 12 13:06
_Hicham_	oiaohm : it is the most used	Mar 12 13:06
_Hicham_	no?	Mar 12 13:07
oiaohm	MS has not taken down the portland group complier.	Mar 12 13:07
oiaohm	From a techical point of view it is the best.	Mar 12 13:07
_Hicham_	but MSVC is most used : that is a fact	Mar 12 13:07
_Hicham_	it is used now even on Open Source projects	Mar 12 13:07
_Hicham_	go look in sourceforge	Mar 12 13:07
oiaohm	Portland group complier takes a single thread program and makes it multi threaded.	Mar 12 13:07
oiaohm	You really want to make some open source programs take advantage of multi core you can gues what you would be using.	Mar 12 13:08
_Hicham_	Visual Studio	Mar 12 13:08
oiaohm	Nop	Mar 12 13:08
_Hicham_	or ICC	Mar 12 13:08
oiaohm	ICC does not have it either.	Mar 12 13:08
_Hicham_	ICC is the best out there	Mar 12 13:08
_Hicham_	?	Mar 12 13:08
oiaohm	nop	Mar 12 13:08
oiaohm	ICC does not contain auto code processing like Portland group.	Mar 12 13:09
_Hicham_	is Portland group compiler available for all platforms?	Mar 12 13:09
oiaohm	Gcc is only starting to develop the means to match Portland.	Mar 12 13:09
oiaohm	Yes Portland group complier is available for all platforms.	Mar 12 13:09
oiaohm	Ever wondered why MSVC ended up free.	Mar 12 13:10
oiaohm	Its no longer a sellable product against something like portland group complier.	Mar 12 13:10
_Hicham_	because there was huge competitors, and free alternatives	Mar 12 13:10
oiaohm	Yes portland group complier still sells for money.	Mar 12 13:10
oiaohm	High performance systems will pay for good compliers.	Mar 12 13:11
_Hicham_	MSVC is not free	Mar 12 13:11
oiaohm	Really. Its included for nothing in the windows sdk’s.	Mar 12 13:12
oiaohm	Basically as a complier if you cannot aford better.	Mar 12 13:12
_Hicham_	the Express versions are free	Mar 12 13:12
_Hicham_	Standard and Professional are not	Mar 12 13:13
oiaohm	SDK versions are also free _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:13
oiaohm	That are the same as what comes in Standrad.	Mar 12 13:13
_Hicham_	no	Mar 12 13:13
oiaohm	You are paying for the IDE not the complier.	Mar 12 13:13
_Hicham_	they don’t include ATL and MFC	Mar 12 13:13
oiaohm	ATL is on sourceforge.	Mar 12 13:14
oiaohm	Yes free.	Mar 12 13:14
_Hicham_	is WTL	Mar 12 13:14
_Hicham_	not ATL	Mar 12 13:14
_Hicham_	are u sure?	Mar 12 13:14
oiaohm	Opps mixed WTL and ATL up.	Mar 12 13:14
oiaohm	ATL and MFC can be got threw mainsoft.	Mar 12 13:14
oiaohm	Independant to the complier.	Mar 12 13:15
_Hicham_	if u pay	Mar 12 13:15
oiaohm	They are not the complier.	Mar 12 13:15
oiaohm	Its like saying QT is part of gcc.	Mar 12 13:15
_Hicham_	i know they are not the compiler	Mar 12 13:15
_Hicham_	but they are still essential	Mar 12 13:15
oiaohm	Not really.	Mar 12 13:15
_Hicham_	all projects use MFC	Mar 12 13:15
oiaohm	If you are building QT projects like me MFC is just a waste of space.	Mar 12 13:16
_Hicham_	not all people work with QT	Mar 12 13:16
_Hicham_	a lot of programmers still prefer MFC	Mar 12 13:16
_Hicham_	and a lot of legacy programs are in MFC	Mar 12 13:16
_Hicham_	and the most evident way to port them is wxWidgets	Mar 12 13:16
_Hicham_	but it is not that easy	Mar 12 13:17
oiaohm	Exaclty.	Mar 12 13:17
oiaohm	It simple not to have the headache in the first place and just code straight in QT and be done with it.	Mar 12 13:17
_Hicham_	but what about legacy programs?	Mar 12 13:17
oiaohm	MFC is not what you call the greatest performing thing.	Mar 12 13:17
_Hicham_	it is not about performance	Mar 12 13:18
oiaohm	My legacy programs are from Posix world. So its not a issue to me.	Mar 12 13:18
oiaohm	Not all coders need MFC.	Mar 12 13:18
_Hicham_	Qt has created a migration framework for MFC programs	Mar 12 13:18
oiaohm	So does mainsoft.	Mar 12 13:18
_Hicham_	it is a good job, but still a long process	Mar 12 13:19
_Hicham_	mainsoft port them natively, no?	Mar 12 13:19
oiaohm	Reason why its advantagece to anyone working cross platform to buy MFC threw mainsoft.	Mar 12 13:19
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oiaohm	You get natively ported MFC on Linux as well as MFC support on windows.	Mar 12 13:19
oiaohm	Basically there is very little reason to be buying MSVC for anything other that that you like the IDE.	Mar 12 13:20
_Hicham_	is there any equivalent IDE?	Mar 12 13:20
oiaohm	I am more use to kdevelop than MSVC.	Mar 12 13:20
_Hicham_	and in ur opinion kdevelop is better than MSVC?	Mar 12 13:21
oiaohm	Ok kdevelop does not have all the features of MS. But I don’t code the same way as MS IDE works.	Mar 12 13:21
oiaohm	Its not always being better _Hicham_ its more if it sutes your style.	Mar 12 13:22
_Hicham_	I know it is not about being better, but there is a style for each platform	Mar 12 13:23
_Hicham_	and MSVC is Window’s style	Mar 12 13:23
oiaohm	My own kdevelop has some of my own personal addons for code auditing for secuirty flaws.	Mar 12 13:23
oiaohm	That I would have to rebuild if I went to MSVS	Mar 12 13:24
oiaohm	Intergrated valgrind is also useful. Its very hard to find something like valgrind for windows.	Mar 12 13:24
_Hicham_	isn’t it available for windows also?	Mar 12 13:24
_Hicham_	valgrind is cross platform, no?	Mar 12 13:25
oiaohm	Everywhere bar windows.	Mar 12 13:25
oiaohm	To run it on a windows binary you have to run the windows binary inside wine _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:26
oiaohm	Yes on Linux.	Mar 12 13:26
_Hicham_	what about using Cygwin to compile it on Windows?	Mar 12 13:27
oiaohm	Does not work.	Mar 12 13:27
oiaohm	Its depending on lower level stuff in the OS that don’t line up.	Mar 12 13:27
_Hicham_	Cygwin is always in progress	Mar 12 13:28
oiaohm	Cygwin techincally can never do it.	Mar 12 13:29
oiaohm	Will not matter how much it improves.	Mar 12 13:29
_Hicham_	ok, i see what u mean	Mar 12 13:30
_Hicham_	i didn’t work with kdevelop a lot	Mar 12 13:30
_Hicham_	to be honest with you, i found kde unstable the time i used it	Mar 12 13:30
oiaohm	What distribution.	Mar 12 13:31
oiaohm	What version of kde as well.	Mar 12 13:31
oiaohm	kde 3.5 under debian is highly stable.	Mar 12 13:31
oiaohm	If you where trying Ubuntu or Fedora I could understand stablity problems.	Mar 12 13:32
_Hicham_	i think i used it under mandrake 9.1	Mar 12 13:32
_Hicham_	do u think Ubuntu is less stable?	Mar 12 13:32
oiaohm	mandrake is about the same.	Mar 12 13:32
oiaohm	Both include more proto features.	Mar 12 13:33
oiaohm	Ubuntu pulseaudio on by default causes KDE some issues.	Mar 12 13:33
oiaohm	to be correct pulseaudio causes a lot of programs some issues.	Mar 12 13:34
_Hicham_	it is not easy to abstrat all sound interfaces	Mar 12 13:34
_Hicham_	but we still need a unique sound system	Mar 12 13:34
_Hicham_	a modern and innovative one	Mar 12 13:35
_Hicham_	like direct sound	Mar 12 13:35
oiaohm	What pulseaudio is doing will disappear in time.	Mar 12 13:35
_Hicham_	there should be a unified framework	Mar 12 13:35
oiaohm	Its simply not compadible with what the Linux kernel will be in a few years.	Mar 12 13:35
_Hicham_	that way game makers will develop for linux	Mar 12 13:35
_Hicham_	then there should an alternative	Mar 12 13:36
_Hicham_	there must be sthg like direct sound model	Mar 12 13:36
oiaohm	_Hicham_: What alternative is needed.	Mar 12 13:36
oiaohm	Alsa is there.	Mar 12 13:36
_Hicham_	not the only one	Mar 12 13:36
oiaohm	Needs work. pulseaudio is basically a destraction.	Mar 12 13:36
oiaohm	cgroups feature that is being embeded in Linux will basically snap pulseaudio.	Mar 12 13:37
oiaohm	Pulseaudio stores information inside a server that should be connected to the process itself.	Mar 12 13:37
oiaohm	Reason why Pulseaudio will die its design is wrong.	Mar 12 13:38
oiaohm	Anyone who read open source sound history would know that all sound servers in time die.	Mar 12 13:39
_Hicham_	just a temporary solution	Mar 12 13:39
oiaohm	A bad temporay solution.	Mar 12 13:39
_Hicham_	what do u suggest?	Mar 12 13:39
oiaohm	cgroups are about resource control.	Mar 12 13:39
oiaohm	Audio is just another resource to control.	Mar 12 13:40
_Hicham_	yes, that is it, it is a just a resource	Mar 12 13:40
oiaohm	cgroups are kernel level. Connect information to processes. So when a process is indivudually suspend when restored its state can remain.	Mar 12 13:40
_Hicham_	what do u think of direct sound?	Mar 12 13:41
oiaohm	cgroups all ready control cpu mem network and process tables. Work is on way for devices and video.	Mar 12 13:41
oiaohm	direct sound could be done way better.	Mar 12 13:42
oiaohm	That is the other problem with pulseaudio its not in a location where it can have any effect on how much cpu time its feeder applications get.	Mar 12 13:43
_Hicham_	i think that there should be the same thing in linux	Mar 12 13:43
_Hicham_	a kind of unified framework for audio and video	Mar 12 13:43
oiaohm	What is the most important thing to make that work _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:44
oiaohm	Its so simple. CPU time where it needed.	Mar 12 13:44
oiaohm	The things that control the allocations of cpu time is inside the kernel itself.	Mar 12 13:44
oiaohm	The complete idea of sound server solution is not going to work.	Mar 12 13:45
_Hicham_	and so, sound in linux will always be a mess	Mar 12 13:46
oiaohm	Video in Linux is already moving its management kernel mode.	Mar 12 13:46
oiaohm	I would not say always be a mess.	Mar 12 13:47
oiaohm	People said that about X11 too.	Mar 12 13:47
oiaohm	Many years latter it getting cleaned up as common sence as taken over.	Mar 12 13:47
oiaohm	Its more how long before a common sence event happens to the audio system.	Mar 12 13:48
_Hicham_	it won’t	Mar 12 13:49
_Hicham_	there must be some central authority	Mar 12 13:49
oiaohm	Same was said about X11 _Hicham_	Mar 12 13:49
_Hicham_	or torvalds himself should decide	Mar 12 13:49
oiaohm	Its exacty like X11	Mar 12 13:49
oiaohm	there is a central authority just completely disreguared.	Mar 12 13:50
oiaohm	Lot of Linux problems are not unique.	Mar 12 13:51
_Hicham_	I prefer a central authority with a bad model, than a bunch of good stuff here and there	Mar 12 13:51
_Hicham_	at least we can develop for it	Mar 12 13:52
oiaohm	Look at X11 with the Toolkits.	Mar 12 13:52
_Hicham_	brb	Mar 12 13:52
oiaohm	Instead of fixing X11 as they should have. People were patching toolkits.	Mar 12 13:52
oiaohm	Sound Servers are the same thing.	Mar 12 13:52
oiaohm	Sooner or later someone will wake up that is impossable to fix in userspace and start work on kernel space and the interfaces between kernel space and userspace as they should have been all along.	Mar 12 13:53
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_Hicham_	is anyone here?	Mar 12 14:21
schestowitz	Yes, I am	Mar 12 14:22
schestowitz	Just making Bn posts ATM	Mar 12 14:22
_Hicham_	what is it about?	Mar 12 14:22
schestowitz	The current one about Kodak	Mar 12 14:24
schestowitz	I’ll post it now, see if you can find error	Mar 12 14:24
schestowitz	OK, posted now: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03…	Mar 12 14:26
schestowitz	See what you think.	Mar 12 14:26
_Hicham_	jose was just talking about that	Mar 12 14:30
_Hicham_	the post is great	Mar 12 14:40
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schestowitz	_Hicham_: thanks, I had a funny feeling about that post	Mar 12 14:43
Eruaran	eeks	Mar 12 14:44
schestowitz	I never rephrase sentences, I just write the thoughts down quickly, then proofread.	Mar 12 14:44
Eruaran	my network is all over the place	Mar 12 14:44
schestowitz	Eruaran: new movel from ASUS (eeK)	Mar 12 14:44
schestowitz	EEK PC… when EEE gets XP.	Mar 12 14:44
schestowitz	Like “WOW”, Vista sure sucks.	Mar 12 14:45
schestowitz	Or “EEK”, my netbooks slowed down considerably with Windows	Mar 12 14:45
Eruaran	As Bond said in Casino Royale	Mar 12 14:46
Eruaran	“yes… considerably”	Mar 12 14:46
Eruaran	My Kubuntu desktop is rather lively with the notifications	Mar 12 14:47
Eruaran	not in an annoying way though	Mar 12 14:47
Eruaran	UAC is annoying	Mar 12 14:48
Eruaran	KDE 4.2′s growl like notifications are rather pleasant since they don’t get in your way	Mar 12 14:49
Eruaran	Microsoft copying everything Apple does is so pathetically sad	Mar 12 15:10
Eruaran	Apple could open a retail store and Microsoft would copy them	Mar 12 15:11
Eruaran	oh… wait…	Mar 12 15:11
schestowitz	Yes, exactly	Mar 12 15:14
schestowitz	Becuase Microsoft wants (and needs) to sell h/w	Mar 12 15:14
schestowitz	The peoblem is this	Mar 12 15:14
schestowitz	Shall they choose this path they alienate OEM	Mar 12 15:15
schestowitz	*OEMs	Mar 12 15:15
schestowitz	who then embrace more of Linux, obviously	Mar 12 15:15
schestowitz	Same problem with the rumoured Microsoft Phone	Mar 12 15:15
twitter	ha ha, BBC goes through the 123 of getting their very own Winblows botnet http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/program…	Mar 12 15:30
schestowitz	Yes, I saw that	Mar 12 15:32
schestowitz	Where did you find it?	Mar 12 15:32
schestowitz	Cause I was gonna slam the MSBBC for it	Mar 12 15:32
schestowitz	It’s it’s widespread by now (criticism), then it ain’t worth repeating.	Mar 12 15:32
twitter	Slashdot	Mar 12 15:37
twitter	http://it.slashdot.org/articl…	Mar 12 15:37
schestowitz	Ah, OK	Mar 12 15:38
schestowitz	let’s see how they present it	Mar 12 15:38
schestowitz	LOL	Mar 12 15:39
schestowitz	+1 to /. this time (good headline	Mar 12 15:39
schestowitz	http://rss.cnn.com/~r/rss/cnn_te… ( Lawmakers: NASA watchdog lacks bite, needs to go )	Mar 12 15:53
twitter	GOD, Slashdot just front paged this idiot article http://www.businessweek.com/technology/cont…	Mar 12 15:55
schestowitz	Yuck! Wintel press cited Net Applications (sponsored to lie by Microsoft and Apple)	Mar 12 15:56
schestowitz	They also cite the shills from gartner	Mar 12 15:57
schestowitz	There should really be some sort of overhaul. Microsoft is spreading its money to poison all sorts of talking heads	Mar 12 15:57
schestowitz	“Ray Valdes, research director at Gartner”	Mar 12 15:58
schestowitz	How many contracts are these people doing with Microsoft?	Mar 12 15:58
schestowitz	How many with Mozilla? (Haha. None.)	Mar 12 15:58
schestowitz	BT freezes wages for 100,000 < http://www.theregister.co.u…	Mar 12 16:03
schestowitz	Watch this nonsense about ‘netbooks’ not being secure (as though security is a hardware issue): http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9…	Mar 12 16:37
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schestowitz	is OLPC dumping WIndows for GNU/Linux http://www.pcworld.com/article/16111…	Mar 12 16:39
MinceR	or for the undead windows ce	Mar 12 16:41
MinceR	or negroponte just wants to have his pockets stuffed again	Mar 12 16:41
schestowitz	Dell Cuts Staff Worldwide < http://www.pcworld.com/article/161114/… >	Mar 12 16:43
schestowitz	/s/undead/dying/ ?	Mar 12 16:44
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schestowitz	Sony is suing because this ad contains its controller: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h…	Mar 12 17:10
schestowitz	The BBC may indeed be breaking the law: http://www.theregister.co.uk/…	Mar 12 17:15
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schestowitz	Microsoft leaves Office exposed to crackers for another month < http://www.heise.de/english/n… > No hurry, Microsoft. You do well for FOSS.	Mar 12 17:22
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schestowitz	Jose_X asks: “Does anyone know if Intel feeds Microsoft undocumented optimized opcodes for their chips? “	Mar 12 17:32
twitter	OLPC goes ARM … about time.	Mar 12 17:47
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twitter	who cares about opcodes when ACPI lies to you and cripples basic hardware function?	Mar 12 17:49
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schestowitz	I’m doing a quick post	Mar 12 17:50
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schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/…	Mar 12 17:54
schestowitz	New post. Some background about OLPC there too.	Mar 12 17:55
twitter	cool	Mar 12 17:58
*schestowitz writes about MSBBC quickly		Mar 12 18:03
Balrog_	the situation with rambus …. not too good	Mar 12 18:11
schestowitz	More brand-jacking: Open Source Ecology < http://journalwatch.conservationmagazin… >	Mar 12 18:13
schestowitz	Balrog_: I have a post coming about it	Mar 12 18:13
schestowitz	Any news you’ve seen?	Mar 12 18:13
Balrog_	http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/20…	Mar 12 18:13
schestowitz	Other than the fee collection?	Mar 12 18:13
schestowitz	Oh that	Mar 12 18:13
Balrog_	not really yet	Mar 12 18:13
schestowitz	Yes, I got it	Mar 12 18:13
Balrog_	well they’re still going to appeal	Mar 12 18:14
twitter	more cooperation between M$, Cisco and VMware http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/031109…	Mar 12 18:14
schestowitz	Thanks, i’ll add this as a second cite	Mar 12 18:14
schestowitz	I had this for 2 days: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquire…	Mar 12 18:14
Balrog_	heh … parallels for mac is better than vmware	Mar 12 18:14
Balrog_	even vbox is better than vmware on mac	Mar 12 18:15
schestowitz	vmware is msftied	Mar 12 18:15
Balrog_	vmware (mac) really got slow with 2.0	Mar 12 18:15
schestowitz	For Win or Linux?	Mar 12 18:16
schestowitz	What can a Mac do that other platforms can’t?	Mar 12 18:16
Balrog_	it has cocoa	Mar 12 18:16
Balrog_	that’s the main difference	Mar 12 18:16
Balrog_	Cocoa for Linux (GNUStep) is very experimental	Mar 12 18:17
Balrog_	and few people are working on it.	Mar 12 18:17
Balrog_	And I refuse to use Windows…..so that leaves me with Linux and Mac, both of which I use	Mar 12 18:17
schestowitz	What’s the appeal of cocoa?	Mar 12 18:18
Balrog_	much nicer than X11; easier to work with (IMO)	Mar 12 18:18
schestowitz	There was a guy back in 2002 (IIRC) called Robert Eisenberg who worked on a Linux port	Mar 12 18:18
Balrog_	GNUStep is the linux port	Mar 12 18:19
Balrog_	http://www.gnu.org/software/gnustep/	Mar 12 18:19
schestowitz	He told me he tried to be rewarded with a Mac for the project, so I remember.	Mar 12 18:19
schestowitz	x11 is fine	Mar 12 18:19
Balrog_	(Cocoa came from NEXTSTEP)	Mar 12 18:19
schestowitz	I know.	Mar 12 18:19
Balrog_	it’s fine but I feel that X11 is bloated and all	Mar 12 18:19
schestowitz	In terms of visual, x is still fantastic	Mar 12 18:19
schestowitz	I absolutely love x forwarding too	Mar 12 18:20
schestowitz	Windows can’t bear that	Mar 12 18:20
schestowitz	*beat	Mar 12 18:20
Balrog_	yeah that’s probably one of the better things	Mar 12 18:20
Balrog_	X-forwarding	Mar 12 18:20
Balrog_	though my networks aren’t fast enough for it	Mar 12 18:20
Balrog_	:/	Mar 12 18:20
schestowitz	A lot of stuff I’m doing via ssh	Mar 12 18:20
Balrog_	I use terminal, text-only	Mar 12 18:20
schestowitz	I use resources rather than ‘computer’	Mar 12 18:20
Balrog_	?	Mar 12 18:21
Balrog_	also	Mar 12 18:21
Balrog_	I like the mach kernel	Mar 12 18:21
Balrog_	and the way the OS X system is put together (meaning application packages, frameworks, etc)	Mar 12 18:21
balzac	I had some new thoughts re Madoff	Mar 12 18:21
balzac	Who in teh SEC was aiding and abetting his fraud?	Mar 12 18:22
balzac	Aren’t public officials held to a higher standard than the rest of us?	Mar 12 18:22
Balrog_	by the way, why did OLPC ever move to Windows?!??!!?	Mar 12 18:23
balzac	The SEC was given the power and responsibility to regulate the finance industry and they didn’t. Nevermind the fact that Madoff was influencing them.	Mar 12 18:23
balzac	Given the fact that the SEC gave Madoff the appearance of legitimacy, doesn’t teh federal government then have to accept some responsibility for the losses of Madoff’s clients?	Mar 12 18:24
trmanco	http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2…	Mar 12 18:25
balzac	Madoff, the SEC, and whoever from the Holocaust survivor’s charity who decided to invest – they all share some of the responsibility for the losses.	Mar 12 18:25
balzac	That was the most offensive part of madoff’s scam, the losses suffered by these 80 yr old Holocaust survivors.	Mar 12 18:26
schestowitz	>> by the way, why did OLPC ever move to Windows?!??!!?	Mar 12 18:27
schestowitz	Stranugulation.	Mar 12 18:27
Balrog_	??	Mar 12 18:27
Balrog_	explain	Mar 12 18:27
balzac	They, along with Madoff’s other clients (to varying degrees, depending on their level of awareness of the shadiness of Madoff’s business) deserve some bailout because the SEC was aprt of the scame	Mar 12 18:27
schestowitz	See BN	Mar 12 18:27
balzac	scam	Mar 12 18:27
schestowitz	I documented lots of it	Mar 12 18:27
schestowitz	Android to Outsell iPhones by 2012 < http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Androi… >	Mar 12 18:27
Balrog_	I don’t see how windows can work right on a netbook-like machine	Mar 12 18:27
MinceR	i don’t see how windows can work right	Mar 12 18:28
MinceR	there, fixed that for you.	Mar 12 18:28
schestowitz	balzac: that’s baloney	Mar 12 18:28
schestowitz	Why defend him?	Mar 12 18:28
Balrog_	well, windows works right on powerful machines	Mar 12 18:28
Balrog_	for a few months	Mar 12 18:28
schestowitz	Give it up. he’s the Penguin Man.	Mar 12 18:28
Balrog_	then it blows up	Mar 12 18:28
balzac	the SEC was a part of it too	Mar 12 18:28
schestowitz	SEC is corrupt	Mar 12 18:29
schestowitz	FTC too	Mar 12 18:29
schestowitz	Majoras and others	Mar 12 18:29
schestowitz	They had conflicting interests	Mar 12 18:29
schestowitz	It’s like a fat cat reign of cronies for corporation	Mar 12 18:29
balzac	yeah, so how can Madoff be facing up to 150 years and why are all his clients SOL?	Mar 12 18:29
MinceR	Majora’s? :>	Mar 12 18:29
schestowitz	Majoras also let Intel off the hooks despite their crimes	Mar 12 18:29
schestowitz	Deborah Majoras	Mar 12 18:29
balzac	When the SEC helped him do it?	Mar 12 18:29
schestowitz	Do a google searcj	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	She’s not liked	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	She moved to head P&G IIRC… from politics to money	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	Then back to ‘politics’	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	It’s like a judge who swaps careers every now and then	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	The DOJ is corrupt too	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	Barnett is one example	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	Microsoft ‘employee’ (paid by them anyway)	Mar 12 18:30
balzac	not saying madoff should get any bailout, but his clients – maybe so, since the SEC helped to rip them off.	Mar 12 18:30
schestowitz	Then deciding on ‘punishing’ Microsoft (or not)	Mar 12 18:31
schestowitz	MinceR: you talk anatomy?	Mar 12 18:31
balzac	it’s disproportionate punishement meted out on one guy and all the victims of his fraud, meanwhile, AIG is asking for another 30BN?	Mar 12 18:31
balzac	Who from the SEC is on trial right no?	Mar 12 18:32
balzac	now	Mar 12 18:32
schestowitz	They need to overthrow everyone	Mar 12 18:32
schestowitz	Start from scratch	Mar 12 18:32
schestowitz	the system is too polluted by favours	Mar 12 18:32
schestowitz	Waiting to be ‘returned’	Mar 12 18:32
schestowitz	Like Barnett	Mar 12 18:32
balzac	What’s his name – Tom Delay was insider trading right out of his congressional office.	Mar 12 18:33
schestowitz	balzac: basically…	Mar 12 18:33
schestowitz	The system blew up	Mar 12 18:33
balzac	Senator Frist was trading right out of his office.	Mar 12 18:33
schestowitz	It didn’t take account of need for regulation	Mar 12 18:33
schestowitz	And idiots like Milton Friedman promoted this BS	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	While debt was mounting	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	To unprecedented levels	Mar 12 18:34
balzac	Cheney was getting Halliburton dividends while VP	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	Worse than Great Depression levels, by fart	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	They should have let it ‘blow’ up in 2000	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	First bubble burst	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	Not prolong the agony	Mar 12 18:34
balzac	Roy, I’m just saying, the public’s rage is appeased by a bit of theater. Bernie Madoff is the clown on stage right now.	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	With more invasions	Mar 12 18:34
schestowitz	balzac: madoff gets uinfair judgment, i agree	Mar 12 18:35
balzac	The biggest crooks are walking free, as usual.	Mar 12 18:35
schestowitz	Give him chair	Mar 12 18:35
schestowitz	End theagony	Mar 12 18:35
schestowitz	it’ll also help many of his victims	Mar 12 18:35
schestowitz	They hanged Saddam	Mar 12 18:35
schestowitz	Some people felt good about it	Mar 12 18:35
balzac	Fine the bejesus out of him, and give him maybe 10 years.	Mar 12 18:35
balzac	Jail Frist, Delay, Bush, Cheney, etc.	Mar 12 18:35
balzac	for life	Mar 12 18:35
schestowitz	balzac: haha. fine him?	Mar 12 18:36
schestowitz	He has no money.	Mar 12 18:36
schestowitz	He owes money to everyone	Mar 12 18:36
balzac	he signed it over to his wife.	Mar 12 18:36
balzac	70M	Mar 12 18:36
schestowitz	Take it away	Mar 12 18:36
balzac	Roy, the SEC should have to take responsibility for enabling the fraud.	Mar 12 18:36
schestowitz	To fund broadcasting of his last mile	Mar 12 18:36
balzac	Madoff didn’t do this all by himself.	Mar 12 18:36
schestowitz	How did the SEC enable it?	Mar 12 18:37
schestowitz	Turning a blind eye?	Mar 12 18:37
schestowitz	How many people?	Mar 12 18:37
balzac	That’s why Madoff’s victims are owed by the gov to varying degrees.	Mar 12 18:37
schestowitz	Does that judtify him getting a free pass?	Mar 12 18:37
balzac	Roy, Madoff worked very closely with the SEC.	Mar 12 18:37
schestowitz	If you see a child with candy and you can steal it safely, will you?	Mar 12 18:37
balzac	no free pass for madoff, but no 150 years, no electric chair, and no responsibility for the prosecution’s claim of 68B	Mar 12 18:38
balzac	maybe billions, but not 68B	Mar 12 18:38
balzac	i don’t take candy from children	Mar 12 18:38
schestowitz	So where is justice?	Mar 12 18:38
schestowitz	Balrog_: not you /you/	Mar 12 18:38
balzac	start with the worst villains	Mar 12 18:38
balzac	Bush and Cheney arguably wrecked our economy. Madoff’s ponzi scheme could have been going along quite nicely right now if Bush hadn’t robbed us of trillions.	Mar 12 18:39
balzac	so he’s one bottom-feeder who’s been exposed buy a much bigger crime wave which passed.	Mar 12 18:40
balzac	small fry, relative to the Bush crime family	Mar 12 18:40
balzac	Then, after the worst are brought to justice, there’s more slack in the system and Bernie Madoff might be as more of an Ivan Boesky.	Mar 12 18:42
schestowitz	why did he not blow the whistle?	Mar 12 18:42
schestowitz	It’s his moral responsibility too	Mar 12 18:42
balzac	But he’s been compared to Ted Bundy in the NY Times.	Mar 12 18:42
schestowitz	Fine.	Mar 12 18:42
schestowitz	One killed women	Mar 12 18:42
schestowitz	One robbed billiobs	Mar 12 18:42
schestowitz	*ions	Mar 12 18:42
balzac	I’d rather be a victim of fraud than to be sliced and diced by a cannibal.	Mar 12 18:42
balzac	it’s very different	Mar 12 18:42
balzac	I’d rather be the victim of fraud than to have one of Bush’s phosphorus bombs melt my skin off, or to be tortured by his goons.	Mar 12 18:44
balzac	I’m just trying to bring some relativity into the discussion.	Mar 12 18:44
schestowitz	Yes, I know.	Mar 12 18:44
balzac	my only new point today is this: where’s the culpability of the SEC? Doesn’t that mean Madoff’s fraud victims are entitled to something?	Mar 12 18:45
balzac	…	Mar 12 18:45
schestowitz	I’ve just looked at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy . Chilling	Mar 12 18:46
schestowitz	The anaologies are flaws because of the nature of the crimes, BUT..	Mar 12 18:47
schestowitz	Damage to society is being weighted too	Mar 12 18:47
balzac	that’s too abstract	Mar 12 18:47
schestowitz	Poverty can sometimes agonise more than death	Mar 12 18:47
balzac	tell that to Ted Bundies victims (ghosts)	Mar 12 18:47
schestowitz	/s/flaws/flawed/	Mar 12 18:47
schestowitz	There are no ghosts	Mar 12 18:48
balzac	i use ghosts as a rhetorical prop	Mar 12 18:48
schestowitz	Russia Rolls Out Open Source for Government < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/200… >	Mar 12 18:49
balzac	the ghosts of 1,000,000+ are howling for Bush to join them	Mar 12 18:49
schestowitz	Bush speaks to God	Mar 12 18:49
schestowitz	He says so	Mar 12 18:49
Balrog_	iPhone 3.0 software will be demoed on Mar. 17	Mar 12 18:50
Balrog_	http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/03/1…	Mar 12 18:50
Balrog_	we’ll see how well the engineering has progressed =)	Mar 12 18:51
Balrog_	and copy-paste, hopefully will be there	Mar 12 18:51
Balrog_	windows mobile is sooo far behind any of the competitors	Mar 12 18:52
schestowitz	Ballmer admits this	Mar 12 18:52
schestowitz	They almost bought RIM	Mar 12 18:52
Balrog_	is rim interested in selling out?	Mar 12 18:52
schestowitz	Android scales /UP/	Mar 12 18:53
schestowitz	to notebooks	Mar 12 18:53
schestowitz	The future goes mobile	Mar 12 18:53
schestowitz	Vista is FAT	Mar 12 18:53
Balrog_	a big problem with RIM is the high ‘blackberry internet services’ fees	Mar 12 18:53
balzac	I know a guy who has a big clunky phone with windows mobile on it	Mar 12 18:53
schestowitz	It can’t scale downwards	Mar 12 18:53
balzac	i pity him	Mar 12 18:53
schestowitz	So Microsoft is in trouble	Mar 12 18:53
Balrog_	OS X scaled down, android scales up….	Mar 12 18:53
schestowitz	Win Mobile is stuck in the past, all forked and whatever.	Mar 12 18:53
Balrog_	put them side-by-side and that’s some competition for MS to deal with	Mar 12 18:53
schestowitz	Forked is wrong word to use here	Mar 12 18:53
balzac	borked	Mar 12 18:54
schestowitz	I mean, it’s not maintained wiell — in a modular fashion –wrt Windows.	Mar 12 18:54
schestowitz	balzac: yes, that’s the tagline oF “Windows”	Mar 12 18:54
balzac	Windows – It’s not ah Toomah!	Mar 12 18:56
MinceR	schestowitz: no, i was referring to a videogame	Mar 12 18:57
Balrog_	windows still has dos-era code, doesn’t it?	Mar 12 19:00
balzac	I think the goodness of a programming language can be judged not just on it’s capabilities, but on how well its character assignments respect conventions used in human language and mathmatics.	Mar 12 19:02
schestowitz	Balrog_: almost	Mar 12 19:03
schestowitz	Let me find something	Mar 12 19:03
schestowitz	A printer dialogue	Mar 12 19:03
schestowitz	Here: http://blog.loseyourmind.com/?cat=6	Mar 12 19:04
schestowitz	“Basic font functionality really needs to be updated in the OS. Some of the font related dialogs boxes XP have not been updated since Windows 3.1.”	Mar 12 19:04
schestowitz	In Vista!	Mar 12 19:04
MinceR	yesterday’s technology at tomorrow’s prices	Mar 12 19:04
schestowitz	MS takes Windows 3.11 out of embed to put to bed < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/1… >	Mar 12 19:05
balzac	That probably means wea’ll all be dead before XP is retired.	Mar 12 19:11
balzac	http://www.fsdaily.com/HighEnd/Debian_5_… <– dropped a stinker here	Mar 12 19:11
schestowitz	Citrix and Ignition Partners (former Microsoft employees) assisted the capture of Xen… for Windows.	Mar 12 19:13
Balrog_	http://linux.slashdot.org/arti…	Mar 12 19:14
Balrog_	http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/20…	Mar 12 19:15
Balrog_	French police save $50M euros already by switching to ubuntu	Mar 12 19:15
Balrog_	“Of the move, Lt. Col. Guimard had this comment: ‘”Moving from Microsoft XP to Vista would not have brought us many advantages and Microsoft said it would require training of users,” said Lt. Col. Guimard. “Moving from XP to Ubuntu, however, proved very easy. The two biggest differences are the icons and the games. Games are not our priority.”‘””	Mar 12 19:15
Balrog_		Mar 12 19:16
balzac	arsetehcnica.com/index.arse	Mar 12 19:16
Balrog_	?_?	Mar 12 19:16
balzac	they think they’re pretty clever for configuring apache to execute .ars files as php	Mar 12 19:17
balzac	jk	Mar 12 19:17
balzac	good news btw	Mar 12 19:18
Balrog_	lol	Mar 12 19:18
Balrog_	yeah	Mar 12 19:18
MinceR	i hope i won’t be dead before xp is retired	Mar 12 19:18
*Omar87 (n=omar@94.249.100.127) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 12 19:18
MinceR	it needs to be retired with the rest of the company.	Mar 12 19:19
Balrog_	yeah	Mar 12 19:20
Balrog_	though maybe part of the company could be salvaged	Mar 12 19:20
balzac	yeah, the marketing department	Mar 12 19:23
Balrog_	well they’re flight simulator products were some of the best … though they already scrapped that	Mar 12 19:24
balzac	Steve Ballmer has a career ahead as a carnival barker	Mar 12 19:25
MinceR	they also destroyed Ensemble.	Mar 12 19:25
*Smari (n=spm@194-144-97-93.du.xdsl.is) has joined #Boycottnovell		Mar 12 19:25
MinceR	ballmer should have a career ahead in penal servitude	Mar 12 19:27
Balrog_	it’s interesting that the Halo game series was originally for Mac	Mar 12 19:27
schestowitz	Bungie bailed out, I thinkg	Mar 12 19:27
Balrog_	then MS bought them out	Mar 12 19:27
Balrog_	(Bungie)	Mar 12 19:27
schestowitz	They dissented.	Mar 12 19:27
schestowitz	Microsoft screwed them	Mar 12 19:27
MinceR	but it was called Marathon back then, wasn’t it?	Mar 12 19:27
MinceR	(Marathon has already been ported to linux btw)	Mar 12 19:27
Balrog_	no, that came before	Mar 12 19:28
schestowitz	Gotta go now	Mar 12 19:28
Balrog_	k	Mar 12 19:28
Balrog_	write about french police dept	Mar 12 19:28
Omar87	Hi	Mar 12 19:30
balzac	the new version of Fedora is named Leonidas	Mar 12 19:35
balzac	If giant, bearded, oily warriors is your thing, pick up the next Fedora	Mar 12 19:35
balzac	jk	Mar 12 19:35
Smari	Ubuntu for me thanks.	Mar 12 19:36
balzac	I’m going to have to make fun of that a little bit though	Mar 12 19:36
balzac	it’s too funny	Mar 12 19:36
balzac	http://www.fsdaily.com/EndU…	Mar 12 19:36
balzac	apparently, lots of fanboys who remember 300 are flocking to Fedora code-name Leonidas	Mar 12 19:36
Balrog_	another thing	Mar 12 19:37
Balrog_	Apple offered OS X for no-cost for OLPC	Mar 12 19:37
Balrog_	why are they going with MS Windows then?	Mar 12 19:37
Balrog_	if they don’t want Linux, OS X is certainly better than Windows…	Mar 12 19:38
Smari	Because Nick did a deal with M$.	Mar 12 19:39
Smari	The OLPC camp isn’t very happy with Negroponte.	Mar 12 19:39
Balrog_	I see.	Mar 12 19:39
Balrog_	doesn’t look good =(	Mar 12 19:39
Smari	They had a fairly massive split about a year ago.. several core people split.	Mar 12 19:40
Balrog_	I see.	Mar 12 19:40
Balrog_	do you think Negroponte will stay with the project?	Mar 12 19:40
Smari	Dunno. Hope not. But there’s enough stuff going on in the grassroots that it doesn’t really matter what he’s doing except on the hardware side.	Mar 12 19:41
Balrog_	ok.	Mar 12 19:41
Smari	Check this out: http://blog.fablab.af/	Mar 12 19:42
Smari	Under the “Afghanistan: Fab & OLPC trial” thing.	Mar 12 19:42
Balrog_	what I don’t get is that they refuse no-cost OS X because it’s not fully FOSS, then they go to Windows, which is zero-foss (OS X has parts that are FOSS)	Mar 12 19:42
Balrog_	someone should comment about ubuntu vs. windows	Mar 12 19:43
Balrog_	‘the rest of the world uses windows’…	Mar 12 19:44
Smari	sigh	Mar 12 19:45
Balrog_	“For the Flight franchise, P-12C ( Paul Lange, lead designer for FS 11 ) replied on this thread that the team asked if they could buy the IP and spin out, and was refused.”	Mar 12 19:45
Balrog_	about flight simulator	Mar 12 19:46
trmanco	Firefox still has ore market share that all the IE’s combined on W3schools	Mar 12 19:47
trmanco	more*	Mar 12 19:47
trmanco	http://www.w3schools.com/browse…	Mar 12 19:48
trmanco	4% of W3schools visitors are Linux users	Mar 12 19:48
Balrog_	and 60% of servers run linux	Mar 12 19:49
Balrog_	(according to ballmer)	Mar 12 19:50
balzac	http://www.oteltours.com/fedor…	Mar 12 19:50
trmanco	“Its performance suffers from the use of Mono, though: startup times are elongated as the program pulls in various Mono runtime libraries. If you regularly run other Mono programs on your desktop this isn’t a big deal, as you’ll normally have the relevant libraries already loaded into RAM.”	Mar 12 19:55
trmanco	http://www.tuxradar.com/content/group-te…	Mar 12 19:55
balzac	http://www.oteltours.com/fedor…	Mar 12 19:56
balzac	please, someone tell me that’s not funny.	Mar 12 19:56
balzac	I’ve got to paste that link in #fedora…	Mar 12 19:57
balzac	tag along if you want to see the reaction	Mar 12 19:57
trmanco	LOOOL	Mar 12 19:58
trmanco	This is Fedoraaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!	Mar 12 19:58
balzac	20:08 -!- balzac was kicked from #fedora by Southern_Gentlem [Southern_Gentlem]	Mar 12 20:01
balzac	I couldn’t resist, it was just too funny	Mar 12 20:01
balzac	ok, the joke’s over and the pictures are coming down	Mar 12 20:03
twitter	Ah, Sparta and the old South, fighting for the freedom to keep slaves.	Mar 12 20:03
balzac	I thought the movie 300 was in bad taste	Mar 12 20:08
balzac	A quote from Leonidas, 300: “Persian cowards.”	Mar 12 20:09
balzac	the film was released in 2006 when Bush & Cheney were trying to widen the Iraq war into Iran.	Mar 12 20:09
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.24.16) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 12 20:10
balzac	so it’s a little bit jingoistic as a pop-culture reference to code-name Fedora 10 “Leonidas”	Mar 12 20:10
balzac	Course I never even saw the movie because I saw “Braveheart” a long time ago and it looks similar enough.	Mar 12 20:11
balzac	https://usshop.ubuntu.com/training.php?catid=5 <– Ubuntu is reaching out with gay-oriented marketing as well	Mar 12 20:15
balzac	nothing wrong with that, but I prefer booth babes to booth-dudes.	Mar 12 20:16
_Hicham_	me too, I prefer babes	Mar 12 20:17
_Hicham_	is Mark ShuttleWorth gay or what?	Mar 12 20:17
balzac	no idea	Mar 12 20:18
balzac	not curious	Mar 12 20:18
balzac	but odds are, not, just based on statistics	Mar 12 20:18
_Hicham_	it would have been more attractive if they have showed a guy with a girl	Mar 12 20:19
balzac	you never know who or how that marketing material got made. the photographer could have been a chick who really doesn’t see anything suggestive at all there.	Mar 12 20:19
balzac	“i do it with ubuntu”	Mar 12 20:19
balzac	_Hicham_: to each their own.	Mar 12 20:19
_Hicham_	so they fuck ubuntu together :)?	Mar 12 20:20
balzac	but it might make the job of marketing Ubuntu slightly more complicated by virtue of the niche-market appeal of that advertisement	Mar 12 20:20
balzac	same with Fedora 10 (code name Leonidas)	Mar 12 20:21
MinceR	isn’t that 11?	Mar 12 20:21
_Hicham_	does it have the same ad?	Mar 12 20:21
balzac	big, greasy, half-naked, bearded guy “This is FEDORAAAA!!!”	Mar 12 20:21
balzac	okay…	Mar 12 20:21
_Hicham_	where is this ad?	Mar 12 20:22
balzac	which?	Mar 12 20:23
_Hicham_	fedora’s one	Mar 12 20:23
balzac	well, I made my own to make fun of the code name “Leonidas”	Mar 12 20:24
balzac	I’ll put it on the server again, just for laughs.	Mar 12 20:24
_Hicham_	what does “Leonidas” mean?	Mar 12 20:24
balzac	http://www.oteltours.com/fedora_le…	Mar 12 20:24
balzac	spartan king, featured most recently and prominently in the movie 300 from 2006	Mar 12 20:25
_Hicham_	weird ad	Mar 12 20:26
balzac	it’s funny	Mar 12 20:27
balzac	https://usshop.ubuntu.com/tra… <– but this one is real	Mar 12 20:27
balzac	as I said before, not a damn thing wrong with it… just not personally appealing	Mar 12 20:28
_Hicham_	posting a guy and a girl is more attractive, since both sexes will be targeted	Mar 12 20:30
balzac	probably better for general appeal	Mar 12 20:35
PetoKraus	“to load either Linux or a full Windows OS”	Mar 12 20:47
PetoKraus	you mean, virii and *ware, and all?	Mar 12 20:47
PetoKraus	windows on ARM	Mar 12 20:47
PetoKraus	Lol	Mar 12 20:47
PetoKraus		Mar 12 20:47
*_Hicham_ has quit (“Leaving.”)		Mar 12 20:54
twitter	“Ubuntu is reaching out with gay-oriented marketing as well” People see what they want. Who keeps making this homosexual stuff up?	Mar 12 21:01
twitter	Nothing but crap shill articles in the news about Vista.	Mar 12 21:10
balzac	twitter: it’s pretty suggestive.	Mar 12 21:11
twitter	Ina Fried, someone at Tech Crunch who says, “I’m not a Microsoft apologist” and goes right on to tell us all about how M$ got things right with Vista, sickening.	Mar 12 21:11
balzac	“I do it with Ubuntu”	Mar 12 21:12
twitter	there are plenty of other images on their store pages all with the same t-shirt	Mar 12 21:12
balzac	I live in NYC where there is a large gay community	Mar 12 21:12
balzac	you don’t see that kind of chumminess unless dudes are gay, generally…	Mar 12 21:13
twitter	The netbook lie is now, ” analysts say no more than 15 to 20 percent of netbooks are running Linux”	Mar 12 21:13
balzac	that and the shirt…	Mar 12 21:13
twitter	yeah, people in NYC are kind of stand off. those two are not very “chummy” as far as things go	Mar 12 21:14
twitter	no body contact, like uptight kids at a high school prom	Mar 12 21:14
twitter	the image is all clean and corporate to me	Mar 12 21:15
balzac	dude, the clubs are packed with dudes	Mar 12 21:15
balzac	you get pretty unfriendly towards other dudes after a few saturdays fighting for elbow room in NY clubs	Mar 12 21:15
twitter	Somehow, I don’t see those two at a NYC club.	Mar 12 21:15
twitter	or at any far less crowded club in New Orleans.	Mar 12 21:16
balzac	somehow, they look a little too happy together not to be suggestive, and with the writing on the shirts…	Mar 12 21:17
balzac	not saying it’s bad, just saying it’s niche-market	Mar 12 21:17
twitter	the bald guy’s smile is a little leering but it’s probably just a camera face	Mar 12 21:17
twitter	you’ve read intentions into the image	Mar 12 21:17
balzac	camera’s can catch you at a funny moment	Mar 12 21:18
balzac	no, i’m not saying it was intended either, just the effect	Mar 12 21:18
balzac	this is just one of many such ads, most of them being people of varying age, gender, ethnicity	Mar 12 21:18
twitter	this is the only one anyone has ever pointed to and called “gay” from Ubuntu	Mar 12 21:19
balzac	But here’s one factor to consider – IT is dominated as an industry by dudes, most of whom are straight, so it might be a little bit of a marketing flub if general appeal is the intention.	Mar 12 21:19